WEBVTT - Embracing Neurodiversity w/ Robin Ince 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.920 I would not like to live in a world without 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.880 ADHD minds and autistic minds and all of these what 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.760 I want to live in a world because the problem 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.400 is not those people. The problem is the limitations of 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:14.480 the society around. 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.920 Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. In each episode 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.799 we talk with inspiring scientists, thinkers, and other self actualizing 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.280 individuals who will give you a greater understanding of yourself, others, 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:32.199 and the world we live in. We even hope to 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:35.159 give you a greater glimpse into human possibility. Today we 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:39.280 feature English comedian, actor and writer Robin Intce. Robin is 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.479 known for presenting the BBC radio show The Infinite Monkey 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.480 Cage with physicist Brian Cox, as well as his stand 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.760 up comedy career. Today's conversation focuses on his new book 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:53.760 called Normally Weird and Weirdly Normal Adventures of Neurodiversity. We 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:57.240 discuss the importance of appreciating neurodiversity and the happiness that 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.080 can happen when people embrace who they truly are. He 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:02.360 argues that there are normal ways we are expected to 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.280 behave and think, and many people are terrified of breaking 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.920 those social norms. However, he argues that living in a 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.400 world that expects us to abase such a rigid set 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.840 of rules ultimately deprives us of a far more interesting 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.440 place to live, of innovation and creativity, of love and friendships. 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:23.400 Of innovation and creativity, of love and friendships. This conversation 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.160 was very near and dear to my heart. So with 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.479 great pride I bring you this conversation with Robin Ince. 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.200 Robin Ince, it is so good to have you on 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:34.640 the Psychology Podcast. 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:37.480 Oh, it's an absolute joy to be here. And of 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:39.440 course for those who are listening at home, they won't 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:41.640 know that it's been an absolute nightmare for you because 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.680 I have done the full ADHD traditional thing of getting 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.400 an email from my publisher and me going what I'm 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.120 on a train now though, and so I've dragged you 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:54.320 through the maya of attempted organization. 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:57.320 I'm really sorry to hear that. So that's the first 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.400 time you heard that this interview was happening was when 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:00.000 we were on the train. 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.120 No, I think I knew but weeks ago. And of course, 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.240 as you know, you only have to literally see the 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.920 movement of a blackbird or the scuttling of a beatle, 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:13.920 and an ADHD mind entirely just revises all information. 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.799 Well, all wells it ends well, And I'm really glad 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.240 I've be chatting with today. You're a really interesting character, 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.240 and I'm very interested in neurodiversity. I'm I've been a 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:27.760 big advocate of nerdiversity in my whole life. And you 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:31.320 wrote this book called Normally Weird and Weirdly Normal, My 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:35.120 Adventures in Neurodiversity. Why do you write this one? 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:39.000 Well, this one was I kind of it started almost 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:40.760 I wrote a book when I'm a Joke and so you, 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.240 about seven or eight years ago, and in it, I 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.240 interviewed a lot of therapists and at the end of 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:51.440 every interview, the therapist would say, I presume you're in therapy, Robin, 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:55.799 and I would say no, and they would say oh. 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:58.200 And so that kind of led to me going into 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:02.480 therapy just for a little bit, and that was kind 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:04.880 of the start of it. I suddenly realized that a 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:09.480 huge number of different things were anxiety. Yeah, like so 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.600 many disparate things that I thought were separate, both physical 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.880 and psychological. And then I was very lucky because I 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:19.079 would not have gone looking for a diagnosis, but an 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.760 autistic stranger called Jamie and Lyon Jamie is a young 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:26.280 autistic man. Lion is the squishy that goes everywhere with 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:30.280 him got in contact with me via social media and said, 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.840 I'd really like to talk to you about the neurodivergent model. 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:36.800 And that's how I found out about ADHD. 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.920 I see, so you're a elite diagnosis. You weren't diagnosed 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.440 when you're a kid. But yeah, that's happening a lot 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.320 these days. I feel like I thought, there's even like 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.160 a trend for like lots of adults to suddenly view 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.480 themselves as a neural divergent. How do you feel about 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.040 that trend? Is that a good thing? 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.680 Oh? Yeah? I mean the point is I've done in 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.680 the last month, I'd probably done forty to fifty gigs 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:05.480 around the UK, and I meet people every single night 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:11.880 who are late diagnosed autistic, dyspraxic dyslexic ADHD. I also 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.360 meet kids who have just started that journey, who are 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.839 eight or nine years old sometimes, and to have the 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.800 knowledge of why your mind works in the way it 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:23.120 does is enormous. 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:23.960 It is. 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.719 You know, in the UK, there's a lot of people 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:28.960 who go on about why do you want a label? 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.280 And I always explain. It's not a label. It's a 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:35.520 user's guide, it's a roadmap. It is. And it's interesting 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.679 because however, like you know, for years, I've had people 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:42.400 coming up to me after gigs saying, hey, I'm Adhd too, 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:44.159 and I've gone, oh, I don't think I am. I 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:46.200 just think it's the way that I perform. And it 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:51.160 required this particular outside voice to make everything so apparent. 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:58.800 Yeah, I really appreciate that perspective. I've been wrestling with 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:03.560 something because of this increased trend for especially a lot 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.040 of young people too on TikTok, to call themselves neurodivergent. 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:10.839 You know what, well, first of all, what is what 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.599 does it mean to be normal? Does that word even 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:17.440 have a meaning? Second of all, kind of a message 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:19.760 of your book is that we're all weird. I feel 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:22.720 like that's a very common thread. So then, third of all, 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.400 if you can keep all these things, yeah. 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.240 As long as the blackbird doesn't go past or I 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.240 see a beat all scuttling, we are fine. We are fine. 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:36.240 Okay, Okay, stay with me, Rabin, stay with me. And 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.719 you know you say that, like you know, we're all weird. 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:44.240 Third of all, do you think like the word nerdivergent 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:47.039 still has meaning. If everyone is neurodivergent. 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.080 Well, I think it's going to change over time. All 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.400 of the labels are quite lumpy. We look at the 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:56.440 history of twentieth century psychology. It's filled with all manner 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:00.440 of kind of errors and misunderstandings and people believing that 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:04.240 everyone's mind is like their mind. And what I think 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.800 first of all is what to me is neurodivergent is 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:13.960 where the way that society is framed is working directly 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:18.039 against you, and that you are feeling you need to 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.880 conceal yourself. So one of the things that I think 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:25.200 is very important is the disparity between who you present 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:29.680 yourself as and who you actually are. The greater the 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.400 gap between those two, the greater your amount of unhappiness. 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:35.400 And what we have in a lot of our kind 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:40.279 of social worlds is a terrible level of concealment. So 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:43.960 no one knew about my anxiety, no one would have 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:48.960 known about my suicidal ideation. I was able to mask 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.719 all of those things while at the same time appearing 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:56.320 to function fine. So there might be a point. You know, 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.240 we do have people who are more typical than others. 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.600 I think everyone you know, to be human in itself 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.640 is a weird thing to have this mind where we 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.760 have two tracks. We present ourselves and we have an 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:13.280 inner monologue that is a peculiar thing, and the problems arise, 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:15.680 like you know, the further we go down with neurodivergence. 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.760 You know, for instance, so many things that are so 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:23.280 simple to make the lives of autistic people easier to 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.720 be aware of, whether it's sensitivity to certain kind of 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.760 tactile things, fabrics, whether it's a certain sensitivity to light 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:34.960 or background noise. We wouldn't have a lot of the 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:38.320 issues we have if it wasn't just decided there is 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:40.640 one way of working this office, there is one way 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.480 of this particular place being. There is one way of 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.480 behaving as a human being, and of course it's a 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.720 great threat. I think you see people like, you know, 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.640 someone like Donald Trump, I think thinks he's both normal 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.120 and an alpha male, which is, you know, just merely 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.280 from his cheating at golf and everything else. You know, 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.320 it's kind of ridiculous. But there are people, I think 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:03.640 who not believe that they are normal, but also insist 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:08.000 that everyone else must obey the laws and the rules 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.280 that they have placed upon society. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.320 Yeah, you say, quote I am Now you say you say, quote, 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:19.200 however normal you think you are, you are weird. Yeah, 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.080 the probing would be certainly read more of your quote. 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.600 I was going to quote continue calling you. The problem 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.400 with being human is that we judge everyone else from 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.880 their exterior and ourselves from the interior. And that's also 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:35.440 a very that's a very interesting social psychology bias of 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:37.840 what we do. And I think just like combining those 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.800 two things, I think it's just so interesting. Like your 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:42.600 your argument, I mean, what would you say is the 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:44.720 central argument of your book? If you had to tell 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:46.120 me what the central argument. 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.160 Is, I'm not sure whether it's an well I would say, 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:50.520 if there is a central argument, it's that the courages 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.720 of normality need to be far wider than they are. 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:57.000 That the society that we have is not fit for 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:01.200 purpose for an enormous number of minds, and minds that 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:05.000 are can be quite brilliant. You know this is I mean, 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.319 I found it fascinating when recently, when I say fascinating, 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:12.720 I mean horrible, disturbing, and grotesque. When Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.080 Talked about the fact that autistic people would never write 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.320 poetry or pay taxes, and obviously pay taxes was the 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:22.880 main interest I imagine for him. But this idea that 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.240 in our society we still don't realize there are plenty 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:28.800 of autistic people writing poetry. The book the book is, 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.640 amongst other things, the book is dedicated to a shop 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.080 on the south coast of England which is this incredible 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:40.240 kind of thrift store which is predominantly run by autistic people, 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.760 and the window is always filled with their poetry, and 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.160 the shop is always filled with their art. And until 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:51.200 we try and realize also that what we currently define 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:56.400 as disorder is very often different, it is not disorder. 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.760 It is a difference, a different way that our mind 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.200 might be as it filters the world and moves through it. 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:11.720 So autism is one form of neurodiversity, but it's what 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.880 else you consider ADHD another part of it? 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.760 Right, Well, I would say the general kind of definitions 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:26.280 would be neurodivergencies, dyspraxia, dyslexia, ADHD, and autism. And then 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.920 we have in separate section which is kind of mental 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:33.080 health rather than neurodivergence, would be things like bipolar. Now, 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:36.680 of course, the problem with that is that the labeling 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:41.240 of our mind is it makes it just a little bit. 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.760 It's like that bits autism, that bits ADHD, that bits dyspractical. 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.719 But of course it's a far more tangled web than that. 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:54.240 There are many people who have suffered depression who are 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.800 given antidepressants and then eventually some of them are finding 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.440 out their ADHD. Now that doesn't stop the depressive thoughts, 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:04.800 but it means that the reasoning can be seen as 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:07.320 a little bit different. There is a lot of behavior 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:12.200 of autistic people which is very similar to ADHD people. 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.960 You know, we have a lot of crossover there. You know, dyspraxia. 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.200 I was banned from using an ink pen when I 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.000 was at school. I was always tangled in my own laces. 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.120 My socks never stayed up, my hair was never flat. 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.959 I am chaos. I have a natural force of entropy. 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.520 It seems that explodes out of me. And so there's 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.400 a lot of crossovers. And I think one of the 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.560 difficulties can be when if we make it too specific 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.680 is I know from talking to therapists that some people 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:41.640 when they're diagnosed, will say, I'm trying to work out 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.760 was that the genuine me is that the me behind 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.760 the mask or is that the masked me? Or is 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:52.880 that adhd me? Now there is ultimately one me. The 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.760 meanness of me and the unice of you is the 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.640 truth that lies in our mind and is how we 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:08.280 genuinely experience the world, not the affectation. The affectation is 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.959 part of what we construct, so it comes from us. 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.440 Mm. I mean, it sounds like you'd be a big 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:17.760 fan of Carl Rogers's notion of congruence. 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.040 Yeah, I think, you know, like everything that's a while 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.880 ago and things get you know, picked up and moved on. 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.840 And but I think, you know, some of the seeds 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.240 that are in those kind of works can be very useful. 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.160 But as long as we're always looking at its seeds 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.199 as we continue to get you know, I think one 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.360 of the big bits of understanding that comes with autism 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:42.320 ADHD et cetera is that understanding that it's not something 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.800 on the outside. It's not something like it's not just 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.400 your trauma and once you get over your trauma, it's 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:51.559 all gone. It's also the fact that the trauma will 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.680 have affected your neural pruning, will have affected the way 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:58.960 that you know. In particular, as we see that kind 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.400 of you know, the executive function of the brain, all 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.440 of that bit that is meant to be managing emotions 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.200 and managing the order of the things that we're meant 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:10.079 to be doing on a day to day basis, All 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.960 of those things they have now been properly affected by 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.040 that trauma. And it's not just a case of oh, 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.600 I've got rid of the trauma and it's gone now. 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.640 It's much like you know, this is a very lumpy description, 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.920 but I'm sure you know those many stories of children 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:27.040 that have sometimes just been kept in a cellar without 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.880 any kind of real language or wild you know, the 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:31.920 wild boys and the wild girls that were found in 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.440 woods that after a certain period of time, it is 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:39.120 impossible for them to ever learn the grammatical rules of 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.559 speech because that bit of pruning has occurred. Now this 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.440 is no longer accessible. And in the same way, I 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:49.080 think you know some of the ways that we react 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:50.800 to the world. It really is a great way. It 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:55.040 can improve enormously with understanding. But we should not berate 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.679 ourselves when we still might occasionally have a meltdown, or 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:01.480 we might forget a meeting, or things are a little 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.520 bit more in disarrayed than they should be. 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:08.120 M Yes, you think trauma can be a contributor to 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.079 neurodivergent nerdivergent mind. 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.599 Yeah, I think we're at quite an early stage. I 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.720 know there's a big debate about this, especially with ADHD. 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.240 You know, autism is seen as being genetic, but of 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.080 course trauma will play a part because by being autistic 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.840 you've then very often experienced more trauma in childhood because 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:28.600 of the way that you are treated, the way that 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:32.120 you can received and perceived. And then with ADHD from 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:37.280 my own perspective, so merely anecdotally, I see the trauma 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:39.760 I experienced just before I was three years old, when 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:42.240 I was in a major car crash that led to 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.120 many changes in my mum and a car crash that 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.440 I thought I was responsible for, because of course, when 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:51.480 you're three, you think you control the world, don't you know, 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.360 in terms of the bad things that happen. And I 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.160 think that played a major part, both for me and 0:14:58.240 --> 0:14:59.560 also for my elder sisters. 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.600 I'm really sorry to hear about this. Touch So did 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:05.920 someone die in that accent? 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.800 No, what happened was my mother would have died actually 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:10.840 if my dad hadn't been three cars behind. There was 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:12.680 a car on the wrong side of the road, small 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:17.080 country lane. It was speeding. It smashed into us, and 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.080 my mum was then in a coma for quite a while, 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:25.680 and she suffered a certain amount of kind of physical damage, 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:27.680 lost the sense of smell, paralysis on the side of 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.480 her face, and various other things. But also then it 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.360 really affected. In fact, last week I was doing an 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.240 event and someone came to the event who had not 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:38.760 I had not seen since I was six years old. 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.840 They were the Baptist minister in the local village, very 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:47.400 kind person, and I said to him, I've not seen 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:48.960 you since I was six, but I want to tell 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.840 you now that I know how important your help was 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:53.480 to my dad when there were a lot of struggles 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.160 with my mum's mental health. And I said, I know 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.000 she was changed. And he suddenly had the saddest moment 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:04.040 mournful look, and he said, yes, she was changed. And 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:05.800 I think you know now I look back and I 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:11.120 realize I never knew the person that my mother was 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.120 before the accident. There's a there's a beautiful line in 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.680 a series called Mystery in Between. Yeah, it's very so 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:19.520 I think that's had. But now I can have that 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.440 all open and out. You know, now I understand, and 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:24.840 I can sit with my sisters. And of course my 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:29.280 sisters had a separate experience because they were older and 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.280 they saw a woman coming out of the hospital who 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.480 was very different to the woman who had climbed into 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:37.280 the car that night. 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:44.240 Wow, tell me about your change and happiness about being 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.440 alive over the course of your life, because there was 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:48.840 a big transformation for you. 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:50.200 Yeah, it really was. 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:50.480 It was. 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.440 It was basically the moment that because I used to 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:58.320 have pretty much perpetual anxiety, occasionally lost in a flow 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:00.960 state of doing a comedy gig for the Little Heckler 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.960 would appear in my head again, and a lot of 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.440 kind of I had a lot of rejection sensitivity this 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:10.480 for it. So it would just take the tiniest turn 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:14.720 of a phrase and they would make me crash. And 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.199 so all of those things were very dominant, and I 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:18.879 never you know, I could count on the fingers of 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.000 one hand the number of times that I've walked off 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.919 stage happy with a gig. I might have a standing ovation, 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.520 I might get an encore, but within three minutes I 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:29.800 would be dismantling it. You know, if someone comes up 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:31.960 to you afterwards and they say, hey, I really enjoyed 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:33.880 that gig. It would always be oh sorry, it wasn't 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.919 so good tonight actually, and then you slowly dismantle it. 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:38.639 And so someone comes up to say thank you, I 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:40.600 enjoyed it, and you say no, no, no, you stay there. 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.600 Let me explain how I've given you the worst night 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.439 of your life, you know that was. And then the 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:50.119 combination of a diagnosis out of nowhere from Jamie and Lyon, 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:55.040 and then also taking anti anxiety medication, the combination of 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.720 those two things has given me. I mean, I've always 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.040 been very energetic into terms of the number of things 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.320 that I've done, but I think that was an energy 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.880 that also came from anxiety, whereas now I have all 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:08.600 the energy that I had. You know, as you know, 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:13.240 anxiety requires an enormous amount of energy. You are hyper vigilant, 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.480 looking at the world all of the time, You're looking 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:21.200 for threat, and then once that goes you are still able. 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:22.960 I mean, I had someone in a gig the other 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:26.560 day and she asked, after my talk, she said, do 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:30.120 you ever miss your anxiety? I said no, And I said, 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:32.000 but you obviously asking me for a reason. Can you 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.200 tell me while we're in the audience. Do tell me later. 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:36.800 I can tell you now. She said, I've had anxiety 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:40.000 my whole life, and I really worry that if I 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:42.359 got rid of my anxiety, would I know who I was? 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.840 And I realized that can be a threat. And I said, 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:49.159 from my not only my personal position, but from the 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.280 position of the hundreds of people I interviewed for this book, 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.560 the loss, you are not your anxiety. You have this 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.200 separate you know, you have this thing that is above 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.840 and beyond all that. And when you lose that looming shadow, 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:08.080 when you lose that that terrible thick fog, you will 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:10.080 find freedom and you will find the self that you 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:12.840 can be. And I don't And I think a lot 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.280 of people worry. You know, my depression, whatever it might be, 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.200 has been so much part of my life. What am 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.159 I without it? And I would like to say to 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:24.360 everyone listening now, Yeah, I can't say for sure. All 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.800 I can say is every night I meet people who, 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.919 especially like late diagnose women who've been diagnosed with autism 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.640 when they're like seventy three or seventy four years old, 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.160 and they walk up to me, and as they walk 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:38.440 up to me, I know they're walking in a different 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:41.720 skin to the skin they were walking in four years 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:47.080 before they have. They're higher, they're mightier, they are smiling 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:51.040 in this you know, this beamish way that says things 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:51.840 are different now. 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.119 Wow ah, and that's really powerful. So you So what 0:19:56.160 --> 0:20:00.919 I'm hearing here is you're saying that by embracing the nerds, 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:06.679 the neudiversent label and identifying your ADHD, it kind of 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.960 unleashed an authentic version of you that quelled your anxieties. 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.520 That's yeah. And I think also what happens very often 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.919 is the things that are actually your incredible strengths you 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.040 batter way and considered to be a frippery the things 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:22.119 that are the negative side. So, for instance, when I 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.919 was writing this book, I had one afternoon it was 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:28.720 five point fifteen PM. I wanted to check what time 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:31.320 I was doing a gig the next day. I suddenly 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.000 realized I got it wrong. It was that night. It 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.080 was in seventy five minutes time. I was interviewing an 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:39.879 author eighty miles from where I lived. I don't drive 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.919 a car. I had a kind of big meltdown of 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:48.000 my stupidity, my bad timekeeping, and I managed to get 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:50.359 there one minute after the show was meant to start, 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:52.720 and I sat down with someone who had only just 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:55.720 started reading her books. I always read it immediately before events. 0:20:56.200 --> 0:21:01.600 And we spoke fluently and fluidly for ninety minutes, and 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:03.320 people came up to me and said, oh my god, 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:05.240 I didn't know you were friends with Sarah. How long 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.920 have you known her? And I said ninety three minutes. Now, 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:14.040 before I would have only seen my mistake. I would 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.480 have thought you screwed up, but you got away with it, 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.960 Whereas now I go, I screwed up, But then I 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:24.159 have this very special ability that means you throw me 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:27.000 into something and I will find a way to build 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:28.760 an event out of it. I will find a way 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.520 to connect with people. And realizing that it's not just 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.000 like kind of oh I'm lucky I can do that. 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.080 That's part of the same brain that leads to the 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.760 meltdown and led to the fact that I got totally 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:39.400 the wrong day. 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:45.639 Heill. I want to take a moment to make a 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.879