WEBVTT - How Smart is an Octopus? 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.360 Hey, please take a second and leave us a review 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:06.240 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the podcast. 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:11.120 Thanks a lot. Hey, Welcome to Science Stuff, a production 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.680 of iHeartRadio. I'm Hoorheit cham and today we're asking the 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:19.320 question how smart is an octopus? We've all seen the 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:24.120 videos online of octopuses appearing to do amazing things and 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:27.760 be curious and clever, but it is there real intelligence 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.360 behind those eight arms. We're going to talk to three 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:36.880 octopus experts, including an animal psychologist, a National Geographic underwater explorer, 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.880 and a neurobiologist. We're going to talk about how octopuses 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:43.919 evolved but their brain is like what they can do. 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:46.440 And then at the end we're going to tackle the 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:51.600 big mystery about why octopuses even exist. So come be 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:55.920 under the sea in an Octopus's science garden as we 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:02.720 answer the question how smart is an octopus? 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:04.200 Hey? 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:08.360 Everyone, Today we're talking to three experts. First is a 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:14.399 scientist who's been studying octopuses for fifty years, Professor Jennifer Mather. 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:21.400 I'm recently retired professor in the Department of Psychology, University 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:22.480 of Lethbridge. 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.800 What is your background studying octopuses. 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.720 Well fifty years. As a kid, I grew up at 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:31.160 the edge of the ocean and taught the animals were 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.120 wonderful and fascinating and decided I was going to study 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:35.320 them when I grew up. 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:37.800 What made you so obsessed with octopuses? 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:42.640 They're fascinating and wonderful. I love watching the weaving move 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.800 and I love watching the patterns that they show on 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:49.560 their skin, and I love trying to figure out what 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:50.960 they're doing with all those. 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.760 Arms because it's so different from us. 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.440 Yes, they're not aliens, they're just different. 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:03.680 The second expert is doctor Alex Schnell, the National Geographic Explorer. 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:08.720 I am a comparative animal psychologist, and that is just 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:12.359 a fancy word for saying I study animal minds, and 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.480 the particular group of animals that I mainly study are 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:20.760 the cephalopods, which include octopus, cuttlefish, and squid. I'm interested 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:25.320 in their capacity to learn and their capacity to remember, 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.880 and so I get inspired by some of the studies 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:34.000 that have been conducted in humans and children and adults, 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.280 as well as other vertebrate animals, and I try and 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:42.399 adapt those and see if cuttlefish and octopuses can solve them. 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.360 You sort of run the same tests that people have 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:50.639 done on those animals, on cuttlefish and octopuses. Yeah, and finally, 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.880 our last expert is doctor Tamar Gudnik. 0:02:54.680 --> 0:03:00.639 I am a researcher no esologists studying sophalo pods of 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:04.399 various types for the past almost twenty years now. Then 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.280 my main research animal has been octopus. 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:10.919 Amazing. What does neuroethnologist mean? 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:16.400 It is the connection between study of behavior and neuroscience, 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.639 So how the brain creates behavior? 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:22.400 All right? The first thing I wanted to ask our 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:26.920 experts was how did octopuses evolve? I mean, they're so 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.200 different from us. Where did they come from? 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:35.560 So? Cephalopods appeared over five hundred million years ago, and 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:41.280 originally their ancestors had shells like the nautilus'es, and then 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.880 many of the lineages moved into deep water where they 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.400 gradually lost their shells. Really that meant that they tradeed 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.120 defense for mobility and flexibility because they're able to be 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:52.920 a bit more agile. 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:59.119 Now, okay, So cephalopods, which include octopuses, cuttlefish, and squids, 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:03.960 branched the evolutionary tree of life about five hundred million 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.280 years ago. This was a long time ago, and they 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:11.000 started off as squishy animals with shells, kind of like 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.440 the nautilus that then ventured out to the deep sea 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.760 where they lost their shell. Why did they lose their shell? 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:20.440 Why weren't shells useful down there? 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.960 Well, we think that potentially in the darkness, you might 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.039 not need a shell to protect yourself, and so it 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.520 really was a trade off. Now they're completely soft bodied, 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:33.960 but now they've got more mobility and more flexibility to 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:34.920 move around, I. 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.320 See, and you don't have to carry around a giant. 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:39.920 Shell totally no baggage. 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.960 All right. So in the deep, dark, open ocean, there 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:47.040 weren't as many animals trying to eat them, so they 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:51.280 devolved their shell. But then eventually some of these squishy 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:57.720 pre octopuses moved back to shallow waters. There things got dangerous, 0:04:59.440 --> 0:04:59.600 you know. 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.080 We see think that they probably faced intense predator pressures 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.880 compared to many other animals because they have no teeth, 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.760 no claws, no antlers, no shell, nothing to protect themselves, 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:14.359 and so they really had to use their ability to 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.080 blend in like their camouflage or their brains to kind 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.800 of one up all the things in the ocean that 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:21.760 might want to eat them. 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.760 Interesting, there were boneless filets. Basically, yes, exactly skinless boneless 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:27.799 was it perfect snack? 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.159 And the idea is that they evolved in a sort 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:36.800 of an arrange race with bony fish. There were prey 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:41.080 and predator for each other. And with the speed and 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.920 a predatory lifestyle, there was also an increase in intelligence 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:47.800 or cognitive ability. 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:49.800 And so the pressure was on them to be smarter 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:51.719 in this environment of competition. 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.200 Well, I mean, the more you move, the more of 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:55.360 nervous system you need. 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.680 So the history of octopuses is that they were not 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.920 lost their shells, but when they came back to shallower waters, 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:08.000 suddenly they were very exposed. And so to survive they 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:12.200 had to get smarter, and that meant upgrading their brains. 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:14.600 So the next thing I asked their experts to do 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:20.320 was to describe and octopus's brain. What can you tell 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.840 us about the neurology of octopuses. 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:27.880 By the definition we use for brain size, which is 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:33.000 brain body ratio, they have a fairly big brain, bigger 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.279 than a pigeon, bigger than a laborate. 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:40.120 I see, yes, relative to their size, octopuses are as 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.800 the kids say, big brain and This is interesting. That 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.720 brain is in the shape of a donut. 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:51.800 So, yeah, cephalopods have really unusual and highly specialized brains. 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.479 So their central brain forms like a donut shape that 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:58.120 wraps around their throat. And so they're esophagus what so 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.440 all the food that they ate passes through their brain. 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.080 What do they have a donut brain? 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:04.640 Yeah? 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:05.800 Fascinating. 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.360 It also has a limiting size in terms of what 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.840 you can eat because the esophagus goes through the brain. 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.120 It limits the size of things they can eat because 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.280 it has to pass through the brain. So they really 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:22.760 think through their food literally. Yeah. The other unique thing 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.920 about octopuses is that they have a lot of neurons 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:30.040 and most of those neurons are not in their central brain. 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.680 How many neurons or green cells do octopuses have? 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.040 So there are two things. One is how many nerve 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:41.400 cells do they have? That is around five hundred mealsman, 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.920 But about more than half of that is actually outside 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.840 the brain, so it's outside the central nervous system. 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.840 But the interesting thing about it is three fifths of 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:56.800 their neurons are not in that brain. They are out 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:01.800 in the arms. Each arm has a dorsal nerve cord 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.320 which is actually a chain of ganglia all the way 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:05.960 down they are. 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.520 Yes, more than half of an octopus's neurons are in 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:15.320 their arms nerve structures called ganglia, So their arms are 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:19.400 sort of independent, each process what they feel, its sense, 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.360 and a lot of how each arm moves. But as 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:28.760 our experts say, that does not mean they have nine brains. 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.120 Now. It doesn't mean that they have eight mini brains, 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:35.160 as some media reports suggests, because complex decision making still 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.720 requires communication between the arm clusters and the central brain. 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.720 So it's not like each arm thinks for itself. But 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:47.480 their whole nervous system is definitely different than ours. It's 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.440 more spread out, And this is interesting because it's another 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.920 way of putting together a brain. 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.319 What I find so fascinating is despite having such different 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:03.480 neuro architecture, pods are still capable of intelligent traits and 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:08.559 the glimmers of intelligence that we're seeing in humans, chimpanzees, cars, dolphins. 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.680 Yeah, I mean they diverged five hundred million years ago. 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.160 Yeah, we're seeing traits that are really familiar to us 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:16.679 when we think about intelligence. 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:20.320 All Right, when we come back, we'll talk about what 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:25.600 those traits are meaning, what can octopuses actually do. How 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.240 smart are they exactly? And then later we'll tackle a 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:34.280 big mystery about octopuses that has puzzled scientists for decades. 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:49.760 To stay with us, we'll be right back. Welcome back. 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.680 We're talking about how smart octopus is sin thephalopods in 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.880 general are. And so far we've learned how octopuses evolved 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:01.400 and how that pushed their brain to be smarter. But 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:05.160 here's the thing about octopuses. They're on a completely different 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:09.040 branch of the evolutionary tree of life. Their branch split 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:12.199 away from ours back when we were just a flatworm 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:16.480 with fuzzy eyes. So they built their brain and nervous 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.880 system in a totally different way. Did I mention? Their 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.400 brain is in the shape of a donut. And the 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:24.960 other thing about octopuses is that more than half of 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.680 their nervous system is in their eight arms. Here's our 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.880 doctor Tamar Gudnig described it. Here. 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:35.880 We're talking in about an animal with a nervous system 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:40.760 out of a completely different evolutionary life. This brain is 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.280 just in no way related to what our brain looks like, 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.360 what a mouse's brain looks like, what a lizard brain 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:52.240 looks like, it's just completely different in terms of how 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:57.160 it's organized. You have about three hundred million neurons in 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:01.800 the octopus that are outside the central nervousness. So if 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:06.320 you look at an octopus arm, octopus arms have hundreds 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:10.640 of suckers. Each one of these suckers has tens of 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:17.000 thousands of sensory cells, so you have taste receptors, chemical receptors, 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:23.600 touch receptors, and even photoreceptors. Then you have skin that 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:28.200 the entire coloration system is based on neural activity. So 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:33.480 every time an octopus flashes color, it's all nerve control, 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.360 opening and closing little sacks of pigment. 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:39.319 They have photoreceptors in their suckers, so they can see 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:40.400 with their tentacles. 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.360 Well, I mean they don't have lenses. I think, so 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:49.000 an octopus arm will respond to a change in lighting 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.240 without the animal itself being able to see the change 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:52.760 in lighting. 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.240 So their whole nervous system is more spread out in 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.720 some way. They sort of think with their whole body, 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:06.760 not just their brain and stomach like some of us. Okay, 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:11.440 so what can this totally different, almost alien nervous system 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:15.959 of the octopus do? How smart is it? I asked 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:19.079 each of our experts to tell us what octopuses are 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.040 known to be able to do, and the first thing 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.080 they pointed out was that they're really good at navigating. 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.920 What do we know about octopuses and cuttlefish also in 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.480 terms of their chronic to skills and abilities. 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.360 So in terms of their cognition, I mean, we know 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:39.760 that they demonstrate really advance learning and memory, and they 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:43.520 have exceptional spatial navigation abilities. 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.760 And remember where they were. They can remember how to 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.520 get back home, for instance, and then just imagine that 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:53.600 they're going out hunting, so they can go out, hunt, 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.920 come back, and then the next day they can say, okay, 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.720 I went out that way yesterday, there's not going to 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.440 be any food there. I should go out in another direction. 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:07.240 So they're not just remembering where everything is, they're also 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.120 remembering where they have been. 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.679 And this, the experts say, demonstrates a very important sign 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:20.839 of intelligence called episodic memory, which means you can remember what, when, 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:26.079 and where something happened. For example, octopuses and cuttlefish can 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.160 remember what they ate, where they ate it, and when. 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.720 If you set an experiment where say you vary the 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.760 kinds of food you put at different times in different 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.439 boxes around where they live. In other words, they can 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:44.480 remember personal experiences. Now, the other big sign of how 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:49.360 smart octopuses are is that some of them use tools. 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.920 Yeah, the footpods in general expert problem solvers, and some 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:59.520 octopuses can even use tools. So the coconut octopus transports 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:04.240 coconuts and other objects as portable shelter, and so it 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:08.839 lives in a very barren type of habitat in Indonesia 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.160 called Limbay Strait, where it's just black volcanic sand. There's 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.920 not many places to hide. So they will collect a 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:21.280 particular coconut half or a scallop half, and they will 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:25.440 scour the ocean floor to find kind of the perfect 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.040 seal so that when a predator lack a barracouter swims by, 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.440 they can bury half into the sand and seal that 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:33.760 shell all that coconut. 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.240 Oh, they get inside, and then they pull the two 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:43.160 house together. Whoa, they created their own little house. They're 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:47.920 basically building a house their own arvy. Yeah, so that's 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:49.920 tool use. You would count that as tool use. 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.520 Yeah, it's tool use because they're using an external object 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.160 for a very directed goal and they're manipulating that object. 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.600 Yeah, if you search for coconut octopus, you see videos 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:05.440 of this octopus carrying around coconut shells and then hiding 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.520 in them if they're in danger. Another example of how 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.760 smart they are is that octopuses have been seen to play. 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.000 They play interestingly enough. 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:18.040 What do you mean? 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.040 We set up this experiment out of the aquarium, So 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.280 we had an octopus in a tank that had practically 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.800 nothing in it. So we gave the octopus a floating 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.280 pill bottle and it floated up above the animal and 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:35.880 the water pushed it towards it, and the octopus aimed 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.360 a jet of water and set it to the far end, 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:44.600 and it came back wow, And the animal was doing 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:48.360 the equivalent of boutsing the ball. There were two individuals 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.920 who did this in one I think was eight times 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.240 and another one was twelve times. 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.760 Basically, the idea of play is that you have an 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.960 object that there is no purpose in it interacting with it. 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.160 There's no food involved, there's no reward involved. It's not 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.440 going to give you anything, and still they keep taking 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.840 the object, taking it close, throwing away, keep doing it, 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.280 throwing it away, and so that is quanta viable of 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:16.200 saying there is a form of play there. 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.320 Yeah, octopuses like to play. And there are lots of 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:24.960 other examples of observations of octopuses seeming to solve problems 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.400 and show flexible thinking. But one of the problems is 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:32.280 that a lot of these observations are anecdotal, meaning that 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:36.200 people have reported seeing octopuses do these things, but very 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:40.000 few of them have been tested in a scientific experiment. 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:45.720 And that's because octopuses are known to be terrible experimental animals. 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:50.080 They're known to be moody, temperamental. Some even hold grudges 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:54.040 against specific scientists and will squirt them with water whenever 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:58.720 the scientist walks into the room. They're also incredible escape artists, 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.280 so it's hard to even keep them in an experiment. 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:03.680 It's like they're too smart to get them to do 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:05.960 what you want them to do for an experiment, but 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.600 they're not smart enough that you can communicate or reason 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:14.560 with them. So instead scientists study cuddlefish another cephalopot and 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:18.280 here doctor Chanel did an experiment that show another big 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:23.439 sign of how smart these animals are. Can you describe 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:24.680 that experiment for us that you. 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:29.320 Did so in humans, what the experiments would do is 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.960 they would tell the child, here's a marshmallow. You can 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.800 eat this marshmallow straight away, but if you wait fifteen minutes, 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:40.760 you can have a second marshmallow. And then they'd leave 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.239 the room and they'd see what the children would do. 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.440 And this is a really difficult task. I mean, it's 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:48.800 very tempting, especially if you like marshmallows. 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:50.160 It would be tough for me for sure. 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:52.560 Okay. 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:57.440 This is famously called the Stanford marshmallow experiment, named after 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:01.960 an experiment done in the nineteen sixties by psychologist Walter Mitchel 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:07.200 at Well, Stanford, and the essentially boils down to offering 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:11.480 a subject the choice of getting a treat now or 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:16.040 waiting some time to get a better treat. Leader Basically, 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.080 do you have self control and can you think about 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.960 different possible futures and trade off what feels good now 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.840 for what feels better later. It was originally done with kids, 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.680 but since then it's been adapted to all kinds of animals, 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.840 like monkeys and crows and even rats. 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:37.800 So in rats and pigeons, they're willing to wait a 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:40.960 few seconds and then they kind of give in, whereas 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:45.680 in your larger brain, vertebrates like crows and chimpanzees, they 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:47.879 wait up to two, three, four minutes. 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.679 So then doctor Schnell wondered, what if you do this 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.400 experiment with a cephalopart. 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.360 And so I decided to adapt it, and I swapped 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:01.479 out the marshmallows for different types of shrimp because a 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.399 marshmallow would not be tempting for a cuttlefish. 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:06.960 Did you try shrimp marshmallows? 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:12.280 I hold my should off. So essentially I created two 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:17.240 different clear treat boxes. They learned that one the door 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:19.680 would open straight away and the other one the door 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.600 would only open after a delay. And the really neat 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:25.919 thing about it is they showed similar coping mechanisms to 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.720 what you see in children to kind of cope with 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.280 the temptation of that treat. So they'd turn their body 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:33.960 away and not look at the treat, which you see 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.119 in a lot of kids, kind of closing their eyes. 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:43.280 And that's incredible. Did they cry for mommy also or not? 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:43.600 Quite? 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.680 So if they opened one box, they couldn't open the other. 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.359 I guess somehow the animal knew that they had to choose. 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.399 That's right. So I expected the cuttlefish to wait a 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.960 few seconds, and I was blown away because there was 0:19:56.119 --> 0:20:00.439 differences amongst individuals. But my most patient subject write it 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:01.520 for two and a half minutes. 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:07.800 Wow, and that must be ages for a cuttlefish. So yeah, 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:12.679 cuttlefish are as strategic or as patient as perhaps a 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:17.159 chimpanzee or a five year old kid. Okay, So now 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:20.680 the question is what does this all mean to any 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.800 of these examples? Tell us just how smart an octopus is? 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.880 Is it smarter than a cat or a monkey or 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.600 an elephant. When we come back, we'll tackle that question 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:34.879 and we'll get to one of the biggest mysteries about 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:40.359 octopus intelligence that still puzzle scientists today. So stay with us, 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:55.160 we'll be right back. Welcome back. All right. We're talking 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.480 about how smart octopuses are, and so far we've talked 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.920 about their evolution, their brain is like, and we talked 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.520 about some of the pretty clever things they can do. 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.439 Here are two more. The first is that they're not 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.879 to work with other species. Here's how doctor Tamark good 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:11.919 Nick describes it. 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:18.800 Another thing that we see is intraspecies cooperation. So there 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:22.960 are some studies that show that octopuses work together with 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.359 certain types of fish, and that's something that we've heard 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:30.760 for ages from divers and fishermen, and now we have 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:34.040 more systematic observations of that happening. 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:35.399 What do you mean they work with fish. 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:39.199 So there's a lot of species that actually cooperate. You 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:43.280 have one animal that protects and the other animal that hunts. 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.400 There are all kinds of cooperations, and we're not completely 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:50.000 sure what each one of them contributes exactly to the cooperation. 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:52.640 Which one is the protection, which one is the hunting. 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:54.960 You're not sure which one drives the getaway car. 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.800 Yes, we're not sure which one's driving the getaway car, 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.800 and which one's responsible for cleaning after. It's very new 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:03.119 and it's very interesting. 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.400 Now. The thing about working with other animals is that 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.440 lots of species do it. A lot of animals, including 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:14.320 insects and even shrimp, have symbiotic relationships with other animals. 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:17.679 But that doesn't mean they're necessarily smart. It could just 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.639 be instincts they're born with. But in octopuses, doctor Goodnik 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:23.480 says that's not the case. 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:27.320 But with octopuses, some of them, you'll see some of them. 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:30.800 You want, so, is this something that the animal picks up? Wait, 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.520 this works. This one isn't food. This one's actually useful. 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:37.800 In a way that size of fish would be food, 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:42.080 like everything is for octopus potentially food. But that's not 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:43.680 the type of interaction that they have. 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:46.800 In other words, it's not something you see in every 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:50.840 octopus of a certain species, which means it's probably something 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:53.960 they're learning to do on the fly. And the other 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:57.480 last example of how smart octopuses are is that apparently 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:01.119 they're pretty good actors. Restarctor alec Schnell. 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:06.280 So there's another octopus in the same area. It mimics 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:09.159 other animals, and so this is the mimic octopus, and 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:12.560 it will mimic not only the appearance but also the 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:15.880 behavior of other animals, so it might look like a flatfish, 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:20.800 a lionfish, or a sea snake. And what's really interesting 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:24.920 is they tend to do it depending on who's watching. 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:28.119 And so if they come across stams or fish, for example, 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:31.919 they will then bury six of their arms into the 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:35.199 sand and then keep two of their arms out and 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:39.000 take on the pattern of abandoned sea snake and move 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:40.800 their arms like abandoned sea snake. 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.920 No kidding, that's incredible. Yeah, So they can not only 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:48.879 change the patterns, but they can sort of morph into 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:53.439 these other animals. Yes, okay, but now you're probably pretty 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:57.920 convinced that octopuses and cuttlefish are fairly smart. Now we're 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:01.440 going to tackle two questions about that. First is why 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:03.919 are they so smart? As it turns out, this is 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:08.680 a huge puzzle for octopus scientists because octopuses don't live 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:11.760 very long. Here's how doctor Jennifer Mather puts it. 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:16.080 Because the octopus only loves a year or two. 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:19.520 Really wow, yes, so short lived? 0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:22.240 And this always bothers us. Why do they have to 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:24.840 be so smart when they're so short lived? 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:26.320 But why does it bother us? 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:29.320 With the normal model you would have would be that 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:31.320 it would be good for you to have a long 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:33.800 life span because there would be lots of things that 0:24:33.880 --> 0:24:37.240 you learned and loss of time to learn them. But 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:40.320 if you're not gonna live very long, why learn so much? 0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:41.000