1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,360 Speaker 1: Hey, please take a second and leave us a review 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the podcast. 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. Hey, Welcome to Science Stuff, a production 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. I'm Hoorheit cham and today we're asking the 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: question how smart is an octopus? We've all seen the 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: videos online of octopuses appearing to do amazing things and 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: be curious and clever, but it is there real intelligence 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: behind those eight arms. We're going to talk to three 9 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: octopus experts, including an animal psychologist, a National Geographic underwater explorer, 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: and a neurobiologist. We're going to talk about how octopuses 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: evolved but their brain is like what they can do. 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: And then at the end we're going to tackle the 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: big mystery about why octopuses even exist. So come be 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: under the sea in an Octopus's science garden as we 15 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: answer the question how smart is an octopus? 16 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: Hey? 17 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: Everyone, Today we're talking to three experts. First is a 18 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: scientist who's been studying octopuses for fifty years, Professor Jennifer Mather. 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 3: I'm recently retired professor in the Department of Psychology, University 20 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 3: of Lethbridge. 21 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: What is your background studying octopuses. 22 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 3: Well fifty years. As a kid, I grew up at 23 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 3: the edge of the ocean and taught the animals were 24 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 3: wonderful and fascinating and decided I was going to study 25 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 3: them when I grew up. 26 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: What made you so obsessed with octopuses? 27 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 3: They're fascinating and wonderful. I love watching the weaving move 28 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 3: and I love watching the patterns that they show on 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 3: their skin, and I love trying to figure out what 30 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 3: they're doing with all those. 31 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: Arms because it's so different from us. 32 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 3: Yes, they're not aliens, they're just different. 33 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: The second expert is doctor Alex Schnell, the National Geographic Explorer. 34 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: I am a comparative animal psychologist, and that is just 35 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 2: a fancy word for saying I study animal minds, and 36 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 2: the particular group of animals that I mainly study are 37 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: the cephalopods, which include octopus, cuttlefish, and squid. I'm interested 38 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 2: in their capacity to learn and their capacity to remember, 39 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 2: and so I get inspired by some of the studies 40 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: that have been conducted in humans and children and adults, 41 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 2: as well as other vertebrate animals, and I try and 42 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:42,399 Speaker 2: adapt those and see if cuttlefish and octopuses can solve them. 43 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: You sort of run the same tests that people have 44 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 1: done on those animals, on cuttlefish and octopuses. Yeah, and finally, 45 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: our last expert is doctor Tamar Gudnik. 46 00:02:54,680 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 4: I am a researcher no esologists studying sophalo pods of 47 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,399 Speaker 4: various types for the past almost twenty years now. Then 48 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 4: my main research animal has been octopus. 49 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: Amazing. What does neuroethnologist mean? 50 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 4: It is the connection between study of behavior and neuroscience, 51 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 4: So how the brain creates behavior? 52 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: All right? The first thing I wanted to ask our 53 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: experts was how did octopuses evolve? I mean, they're so 54 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: different from us. Where did they come from? 55 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: So? Cephalopods appeared over five hundred million years ago, and 56 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: originally their ancestors had shells like the nautilus'es, and then 57 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: many of the lineages moved into deep water where they 58 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: gradually lost their shells. Really that meant that they tradeed 59 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: defense for mobility and flexibility because they're able to be 60 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: a bit more agile. 61 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:59,119 Speaker 1: Now, okay, So cephalopods, which include octopuses, cuttlefish, and squids, 62 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: branched the evolutionary tree of life about five hundred million 63 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: years ago. This was a long time ago, and they 64 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: started off as squishy animals with shells, kind of like 65 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: the nautilus that then ventured out to the deep sea 66 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: where they lost their shell. Why did they lose their shell? 67 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: Why weren't shells useful down there? 68 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: Well, we think that potentially in the darkness, you might 69 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 2: not need a shell to protect yourself, and so it 70 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: really was a trade off. Now they're completely soft bodied, 71 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: but now they've got more mobility and more flexibility to 72 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 2: move around, I. 73 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: See, and you don't have to carry around a giant. 74 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 2: Shell totally no baggage. 75 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: All right. So in the deep, dark, open ocean, there 76 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: weren't as many animals trying to eat them, so they 77 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: devolved their shell. But then eventually some of these squishy 78 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: pre octopuses moved back to shallow waters. There things got dangerous, 79 00:04:59,440 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: you know. 80 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: We see think that they probably faced intense predator pressures 81 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: compared to many other animals because they have no teeth, 82 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: no claws, no antlers, no shell, nothing to protect themselves, 83 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 2: and so they really had to use their ability to 84 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: blend in like their camouflage or their brains to kind 85 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 2: of one up all the things in the ocean that 86 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: might want to eat them. 87 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: Interesting, there were boneless filets. Basically, yes, exactly skinless boneless 88 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:27,799 Speaker 1: was it perfect snack? 89 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 4: And the idea is that they evolved in a sort 90 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 4: of an arrange race with bony fish. There were prey 91 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 4: and predator for each other. And with the speed and 92 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 4: a predatory lifestyle, there was also an increase in intelligence 93 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 4: or cognitive ability. 94 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: And so the pressure was on them to be smarter 95 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: in this environment of competition. 96 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, the more you move, the more of 97 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 4: nervous system you need. 98 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: So the history of octopuses is that they were not 99 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: lost their shells, but when they came back to shallower waters, 100 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: suddenly they were very exposed. And so to survive they 101 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: had to get smarter, and that meant upgrading their brains. 102 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: So the next thing I asked their experts to do 103 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: was to describe and octopus's brain. What can you tell 104 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: us about the neurology of octopuses. 105 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 3: By the definition we use for brain size, which is 106 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 3: brain body ratio, they have a fairly big brain, bigger 107 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 3: than a pigeon, bigger than a laborate. 108 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: I see, yes, relative to their size, octopuses are as 109 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: the kids say, big brain and This is interesting. That 110 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: brain is in the shape of a donut. 111 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: So, yeah, cephalopods have really unusual and highly specialized brains. 112 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 2: So their central brain forms like a donut shape that 113 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: wraps around their throat. And so they're esophagus what so 114 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 2: all the food that they ate passes through their brain. 115 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: What do they have a donut brain? 116 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? 117 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: Fascinating. 118 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 4: It also has a limiting size in terms of what 119 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 4: you can eat because the esophagus goes through the brain. 120 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: It limits the size of things they can eat because 121 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: it has to pass through the brain. So they really 122 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: think through their food literally. Yeah. The other unique thing 123 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: about octopuses is that they have a lot of neurons 124 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: and most of those neurons are not in their central brain. 125 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: How many neurons or green cells do octopuses have? 126 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 4: So there are two things. One is how many nerve 127 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 4: cells do they have? That is around five hundred mealsman, 128 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 4: But about more than half of that is actually outside 129 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 4: the brain, so it's outside the central nervous system. 130 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 3: But the interesting thing about it is three fifths of 131 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 3: their neurons are not in that brain. They are out 132 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 3: in the arms. Each arm has a dorsal nerve cord 133 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 3: which is actually a chain of ganglia all the way 134 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 3: down they are. 135 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: Yes, more than half of an octopus's neurons are in 136 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: their arms nerve structures called ganglia, So their arms are 137 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: sort of independent, each process what they feel, its sense, 138 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: and a lot of how each arm moves. But as 139 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: our experts say, that does not mean they have nine brains. 140 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: Now. It doesn't mean that they have eight mini brains, 141 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: as some media reports suggests, because complex decision making still 142 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: requires communication between the arm clusters and the central brain. 143 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: So it's not like each arm thinks for itself. But 144 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: their whole nervous system is definitely different than ours. It's 145 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: more spread out, And this is interesting because it's another 146 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: way of putting together a brain. 147 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 2: What I find so fascinating is despite having such different 148 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: neuro architecture, pods are still capable of intelligent traits and 149 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 2: the glimmers of intelligence that we're seeing in humans, chimpanzees, cars, dolphins. 150 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they diverged five hundred million years ago. 151 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're seeing traits that are really familiar to us 152 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 2: when we think about intelligence. 153 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: All Right, when we come back, we'll talk about what 154 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: those traits are meaning, what can octopuses actually do. How 155 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: smart are they exactly? And then later we'll tackle a 156 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: big mystery about octopuses that has puzzled scientists for decades. 157 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: To stay with us, we'll be right back. Welcome back. 158 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: We're talking about how smart octopus is sin thephalopods in 159 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: general are. And so far we've learned how octopuses evolved 160 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: and how that pushed their brain to be smarter. But 161 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: here's the thing about octopuses. They're on a completely different 162 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: branch of the evolutionary tree of life. Their branch split 163 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 1: away from ours back when we were just a flatworm 164 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: with fuzzy eyes. So they built their brain and nervous 165 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: system in a totally different way. Did I mention? Their 166 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: brain is in the shape of a donut. And the 167 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: other thing about octopuses is that more than half of 168 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: their nervous system is in their eight arms. Here's our 169 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: doctor Tamar Gudnig described it. Here. 170 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 4: We're talking in about an animal with a nervous system 171 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 4: out of a completely different evolutionary life. This brain is 172 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 4: just in no way related to what our brain looks like, 173 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 4: what a mouse's brain looks like, what a lizard brain 174 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 4: looks like, it's just completely different in terms of how 175 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 4: it's organized. You have about three hundred million neurons in 176 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 4: the octopus that are outside the central nervousness. So if 177 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 4: you look at an octopus arm, octopus arms have hundreds 178 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 4: of suckers. Each one of these suckers has tens of 179 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 4: thousands of sensory cells, so you have taste receptors, chemical receptors, 180 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 4: touch receptors, and even photoreceptors. Then you have skin that 181 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 4: the entire coloration system is based on neural activity. So 182 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 4: every time an octopus flashes color, it's all nerve control, 183 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 4: opening and closing little sacks of pigment. 184 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: They have photoreceptors in their suckers, so they can see 185 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: with their tentacles. 186 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 4: Well, I mean they don't have lenses. I think, so 187 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 4: an octopus arm will respond to a change in lighting 188 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 4: without the animal itself being able to see the change 189 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 4: in lighting. 190 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: So their whole nervous system is more spread out in 191 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: some way. They sort of think with their whole body, 192 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: not just their brain and stomach like some of us. Okay, 193 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: so what can this totally different, almost alien nervous system 194 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: of the octopus do? How smart is it? I asked 195 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: each of our experts to tell us what octopuses are 196 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: known to be able to do, and the first thing 197 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: they pointed out was that they're really good at navigating. 198 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: What do we know about octopuses and cuttlefish also in 199 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: terms of their chronic to skills and abilities. 200 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: So in terms of their cognition, I mean, we know 201 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: that they demonstrate really advance learning and memory, and they 202 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: have exceptional spatial navigation abilities. 203 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 3: And remember where they were. They can remember how to 204 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 3: get back home, for instance, and then just imagine that 205 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 3: they're going out hunting, so they can go out, hunt, 206 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 3: come back, and then the next day they can say, okay, 207 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 3: I went out that way yesterday, there's not going to 208 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 3: be any food there. I should go out in another direction. 209 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 3: So they're not just remembering where everything is, they're also 210 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 3: remembering where they have been. 211 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: And this, the experts say, demonstrates a very important sign 212 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:20,839 Speaker 1: of intelligence called episodic memory, which means you can remember what, when, 213 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: and where something happened. For example, octopuses and cuttlefish can 214 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: remember what they ate, where they ate it, and when. 215 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: If you set an experiment where say you vary the 216 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: kinds of food you put at different times in different 217 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 1: boxes around where they live. In other words, they can 218 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: remember personal experiences. Now, the other big sign of how 219 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: smart octopuses are is that some of them use tools. 220 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, the footpods in general expert problem solvers, and some 221 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: octopuses can even use tools. So the coconut octopus transports 222 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 2: coconuts and other objects as portable shelter, and so it 223 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 2: lives in a very barren type of habitat in Indonesia 224 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 2: called Limbay Strait, where it's just black volcanic sand. There's 225 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: not many places to hide. So they will collect a 226 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: particular coconut half or a scallop half, and they will 227 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 2: scour the ocean floor to find kind of the perfect 228 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 2: seal so that when a predator lack a barracouter swims by, 229 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: they can bury half into the sand and seal that 230 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: shell all that coconut. 231 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: Oh, they get inside, and then they pull the two 232 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: house together. Whoa, they created their own little house. They're 233 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: basically building a house their own arvy. Yeah, so that's 234 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: tool use. You would count that as tool use. 235 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tool use because they're using an external object 236 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: for a very directed goal and they're manipulating that object. 237 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you search for coconut octopus, you see videos 238 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: of this octopus carrying around coconut shells and then hiding 239 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: in them if they're in danger. Another example of how 240 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: smart they are is that octopuses have been seen to play. 241 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 3: They play interestingly enough. 242 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: What do you mean? 243 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 3: We set up this experiment out of the aquarium, So 244 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 3: we had an octopus in a tank that had practically 245 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 3: nothing in it. So we gave the octopus a floating 246 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 3: pill bottle and it floated up above the animal and 247 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 3: the water pushed it towards it, and the octopus aimed 248 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 3: a jet of water and set it to the far end, 249 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 3: and it came back wow, And the animal was doing 250 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 3: the equivalent of boutsing the ball. There were two individuals 251 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: who did this in one I think was eight times 252 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 3: and another one was twelve times. 253 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 4: Basically, the idea of play is that you have an 254 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 4: object that there is no purpose in it interacting with it. 255 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 4: There's no food involved, there's no reward involved. It's not 256 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 4: going to give you anything, and still they keep taking 257 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 4: the object, taking it close, throwing away, keep doing it, 258 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 4: throwing it away, and so that is quanta viable of 259 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 4: saying there is a form of play there. 260 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, octopuses like to play. And there are lots of 261 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: other examples of observations of octopuses seeming to solve problems 262 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: and show flexible thinking. But one of the problems is 263 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: that a lot of these observations are anecdotal, meaning that 264 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: people have reported seeing octopuses do these things, but very 265 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: few of them have been tested in a scientific experiment. 266 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: And that's because octopuses are known to be terrible experimental animals. 267 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: They're known to be moody, temperamental. Some even hold grudges 268 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: against specific scientists and will squirt them with water whenever 269 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: the scientist walks into the room. They're also incredible escape artists, 270 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: so it's hard to even keep them in an experiment. 271 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: It's like they're too smart to get them to do 272 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: what you want them to do for an experiment, but 273 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: they're not smart enough that you can communicate or reason 274 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: with them. So instead scientists study cuddlefish another cephalopot and 275 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: here doctor Chanel did an experiment that show another big 276 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: sign of how smart these animals are. Can you describe 277 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: that experiment for us that you. 278 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: Did so in humans, what the experiments would do is 279 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 2: they would tell the child, here's a marshmallow. You can 280 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 2: eat this marshmallow straight away, but if you wait fifteen minutes, 281 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 2: you can have a second marshmallow. And then they'd leave 282 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,239 Speaker 2: the room and they'd see what the children would do. 283 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 2: And this is a really difficult task. I mean, it's 284 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: very tempting, especially if you like marshmallows. 285 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: It would be tough for me for sure. 286 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: Okay. 287 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: This is famously called the Stanford marshmallow experiment, named after 288 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: an experiment done in the nineteen sixties by psychologist Walter Mitchel 289 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: at Well, Stanford, and the essentially boils down to offering 290 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: a subject the choice of getting a treat now or 291 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: waiting some time to get a better treat. Leader Basically, 292 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: do you have self control and can you think about 293 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: different possible futures and trade off what feels good now 294 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: for what feels better later. It was originally done with kids, 295 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: but since then it's been adapted to all kinds of animals, 296 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: like monkeys and crows and even rats. 297 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 2: So in rats and pigeons, they're willing to wait a 298 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 2: few seconds and then they kind of give in, whereas 299 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 2: in your larger brain, vertebrates like crows and chimpanzees, they 300 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 2: wait up to two, three, four minutes. 301 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: So then doctor Schnell wondered, what if you do this 302 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: experiment with a cephalopart. 303 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 2: And so I decided to adapt it, and I swapped 304 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,479 Speaker 2: out the marshmallows for different types of shrimp because a 305 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 2: marshmallow would not be tempting for a cuttlefish. 306 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: Did you try shrimp marshmallows? 307 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: I hold my should off. So essentially I created two 308 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 2: different clear treat boxes. They learned that one the door 309 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: would open straight away and the other one the door 310 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: would only open after a delay. And the really neat 311 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 2: thing about it is they showed similar coping mechanisms to 312 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: what you see in children to kind of cope with 313 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: the temptation of that treat. So they'd turn their body 314 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: away and not look at the treat, which you see 315 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 2: in a lot of kids, kind of closing their eyes. 316 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: And that's incredible. Did they cry for mommy also or not? 317 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 3: Quite? 318 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: So if they opened one box, they couldn't open the other. 319 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: I guess somehow the animal knew that they had to choose. 320 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: That's right. So I expected the cuttlefish to wait a 321 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 2: few seconds, and I was blown away because there was 322 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 2: differences amongst individuals. But my most patient subject write it 323 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 2: for two and a half minutes. 324 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: Wow, and that must be ages for a cuttlefish. So yeah, 325 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,679 Speaker 1: cuttlefish are as strategic or as patient as perhaps a 326 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: chimpanzee or a five year old kid. Okay, So now 327 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: the question is what does this all mean to any 328 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: of these examples? Tell us just how smart an octopus is? 329 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: Is it smarter than a cat or a monkey or 330 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: an elephant. When we come back, we'll tackle that question 331 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: and we'll get to one of the biggest mysteries about 332 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: octopus intelligence that still puzzle scientists today. So stay with us, 333 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: we'll be right back. Welcome back. All right. We're talking 334 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: about how smart octopuses are, and so far we've talked 335 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: about their evolution, their brain is like, and we talked 336 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: about some of the pretty clever things they can do. 337 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: Here are two more. The first is that they're not 338 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: to work with other species. Here's how doctor Tamark good 339 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: Nick describes it. 340 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 4: Another thing that we see is intraspecies cooperation. So there 341 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 4: are some studies that show that octopuses work together with 342 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 4: certain types of fish, and that's something that we've heard 343 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 4: for ages from divers and fishermen, and now we have 344 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 4: more systematic observations of that happening. 345 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: What do you mean they work with fish. 346 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 4: So there's a lot of species that actually cooperate. You 347 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 4: have one animal that protects and the other animal that hunts. 348 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 4: There are all kinds of cooperations, and we're not completely 349 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 4: sure what each one of them contributes exactly to the cooperation. 350 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 4: Which one is the protection, which one is the hunting. 351 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: You're not sure which one drives the getaway car. 352 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 4: Yes, we're not sure which one's driving the getaway car, 353 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 4: and which one's responsible for cleaning after. It's very new 354 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 4: and it's very interesting. 355 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: Now. The thing about working with other animals is that 356 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: lots of species do it. A lot of animals, including 357 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: insects and even shrimp, have symbiotic relationships with other animals. 358 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean they're necessarily smart. It could just 359 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 1: be instincts they're born with. But in octopuses, doctor Goodnik 360 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: says that's not the case. 361 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 4: But with octopuses, some of them, you'll see some of them. 362 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 4: You want, so, is this something that the animal picks up? Wait, 363 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 4: this works. This one isn't food. This one's actually useful. 364 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 4: In a way that size of fish would be food, 365 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 4: like everything is for octopus potentially food. But that's not 366 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 4: the type of interaction that they have. 367 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: In other words, it's not something you see in every 368 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: octopus of a certain species, which means it's probably something 369 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: they're learning to do on the fly. And the other 370 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: last example of how smart octopuses are is that apparently 371 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: they're pretty good actors. Restarctor alec Schnell. 372 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: So there's another octopus in the same area. It mimics 373 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 2: other animals, and so this is the mimic octopus, and 374 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 2: it will mimic not only the appearance but also the 375 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 2: behavior of other animals, so it might look like a flatfish, 376 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: a lionfish, or a sea snake. And what's really interesting 377 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 2: is they tend to do it depending on who's watching. 378 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 2: And so if they come across stams or fish, for example, 379 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 2: they will then bury six of their arms into the 380 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 2: sand and then keep two of their arms out and 381 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 2: take on the pattern of abandoned sea snake and move 382 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 2: their arms like abandoned sea snake. 383 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: No kidding, that's incredible. Yeah, So they can not only 384 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: change the patterns, but they can sort of morph into 385 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: these other animals. Yes, okay, but now you're probably pretty 386 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: convinced that octopuses and cuttlefish are fairly smart. Now we're 387 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: going to tackle two questions about that. First is why 388 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: are they so smart? As it turns out, this is 389 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: a huge puzzle for octopus scientists because octopuses don't live 390 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: very long. Here's how doctor Jennifer Mather puts it. 391 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 3: Because the octopus only loves a year or two. 392 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: Really wow, yes, so short lived? 393 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 3: And this always bothers us. Why do they have to 394 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 3: be so smart when they're so short lived? 395 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: But why does it bother us? 396 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 3: With the normal model you would have would be that 397 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 3: it would be good for you to have a long 398 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 3: life span because there would be lots of things that 399 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 3: you learned and loss of time to learn them. But 400 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 3: if you're not gonna live very long, why learn so much? 401 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 4: Uh huh? 402 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 3: So that bothers us? 403 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense. So a typical octopus only lives 404 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: about a year or two, which makes being that smart 405 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: and being able to learn so much seem kind of 406 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: a waste. Why would the octopus evolve to be so 407 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 1: smart if it's not gonna live very long? Now that's 408 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: an open question. We don't know the answer, but one 409 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: theory is that maybe we're just looking at it the 410 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: wrong way. 411 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 2: Most species live one to two years. They're like the 412 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: rock stars, you know, live fast, die young. And also 413 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: they don't have parental care, so they're not learning from kin, 414 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 2: they don't live in groups, they don't learn from individuals 415 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 2: around them. So what we think is that that's probably 416 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 2: a reason why they are such advanced learners, because they 417 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 2: take every opportunity that they can to learn from the 418 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 2: environment around them. They don't have anyone a parental figure, sisters, 419 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: brothers that are helping them learn, and because of the 420 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 2: short lifespan, they've just got to do everything really quickly. 421 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,959 Speaker 1: Do they have to learn on their own? Yeah? Wow. 422 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: So whereas with us and other smartish animals like cats, dogs, crows, 423 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: we became smart because we had long lives and lived 424 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: in complex societies or groups of animals, the opposite might 425 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: have happened in octopuses because they have such short lives. 426 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: Because octopuses live on their own, they had to get 427 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: smart to survive, which tells you that there's no one 428 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: way to get to intelligence. We tend to think of 429 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 1: how smart we are as something special or unique. But 430 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 1: the truth is that intelligence is just one solution to 431 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: the problem of staying alive. Meaning intelligence is not something 432 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: that's uniquely human or special. It's just something that can 433 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: help you solve a problem out in the wild. 434 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 4: I think intelligence is an involved function of the necessity 435 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 4: to solve the world, right, to get through life. It 436 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 4: doesn't lie in a certain brain area because the brain 437 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 4: areas that have it are so completely different than different animals. Right, 438 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 4: So it's an evolved solution to similar problems, and you 439 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 4: can build up to it in different ways. Yeah, you 440 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 4: obviously life has managed to reach the solution several times. 441 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 4: In a way. It's a product of living. 442 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: I guess, which kind of makes you wonder what would 443 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: happen if octopuses could live longer? 444 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 2: I know, I always think about how terrifying or cool 445 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: it would be if cephalopods lived for really long. Surely 446 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 2: they'd take over the world. 447 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: You just made me a little scared there, all right. 448 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: The last question I asked our experts was how smart 449 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: exactly are octopuses and cuddlefish? How do they compare to 450 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: other species or even to us. If you had to 451 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: compare the intelligence of an octopus to another reference animal. 452 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: Would you say something like, it's smarter than a cat, 453 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 1: it's smarter than a dog or a three year old human? 454 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: What would you say. 455 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 4: Then? I would probably politely decline. I mean, I think 456 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 4: it's a very human way of thinking about it. In 457 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 4: a way, what is it smarter than? 458 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: It's not useful to compare. 459 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 4: No, it's not really useful to compare. They all have 460 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 4: a set of tasks to solve, and each one of 461 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 4: them has a different way of solving them. 462 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: There's many ways to define intelligence. Intelligence is not one thing. 463 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: I think that it's also a bit misleading to rank 464 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 2: their intelligence on a human centered scale. So I like 465 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 2: to say that each species has evolved to be a 466 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 2: master of its own domain. Octopuses excel at things that 467 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 2: a human could never do, complex three dimensional navigation, manipulating 468 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 2: objects with eight different arms, and their cognitive abilities reflect 469 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 2: a very different, but equally I think sophisticated form of intelligence. 470 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 2: They have a taste by touch sensation, so that they 471 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 2: can taste with their suckers when they feel certain objects 472 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: or substances. It's kind of like having a tongue and 473 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: nose and a fingertip all in one. 474 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: I see and so they're somehow able to process a 475 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: lot of sensory information in the way that we could 476 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: never even maybe imagine. Okay, so you wouldn't try to 477 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: quantify their intelligence relation to other animals, Like if I 478 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: ask you, are they smarter than a dog? Are they 479 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: smarter than a three year old human? 480 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: I think you can quantify it. I just don't like 481 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: to rank them, so, you know, and sometimes I get 482 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 2: that a lot, and I just say, look, you know, 483 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: cattlefish can wait for a better trait for two and 484 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: a half minutes. How long can your yeah, your three 485 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 2: year old break a second marginal? 486 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: Okay? In the episode, I'm going to let doctor Mather 487 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: have the last word. If you had to sum up 488 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: fifty years of studying octopuses, what's the thing that you 489 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: would most want people to take away? 490 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 3: That's they're very smart, that there are many ways of 491 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 3: being smart, and that many different animals are pushed in 492 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 3: many different directions by their environment. There's a wonderful varietio there, 493 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 3: and I'd love to learn more about it. 494 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: Thanks to all our experts joining us, and thank you 495 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: for wrapping your arms around this mystery with us. See 496 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: you next time you've been listening to Science Stuff. Production 497 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio written and produced by me or Hey Cham, 498 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: edited by Rose Seguda, executive producer Jerry Rowland and audio 499 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: engineer and mixer Chandler Mace. And you can follow me 500 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: on social media. Just search for PhD Comics and the 501 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: name of your favorite platform. Be sure to subscribe to 502 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: sign Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 503 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, and please tell your friends we'll 504 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: be back next Wednesday with another episode.