1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: You're walking through pools of water, little underground streams. It 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: really is one of the most extreme environments that I've 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: ever been in. From Bloomberg News and I Heart Radio, 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: it's the big take. I'm West Gsova. Each weekday we 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: dig into one important story, and today the worldwide hunt 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: for copper. Soon there might not be enough of it 7 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: to feed our insatiable demand. The soundclip you heard at 8 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 1: the top of the show, that was Bloomberg reporter Matthew Hill. 9 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: He traveled to a huge copper mine in Zambia in 10 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: southern Africa, and he's here to tell the incredible story 11 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: of what it takes to get copper out of the 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: ground and into your computer or your car, the wiring 13 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: in your house. I talked to Matt in just a bit, 14 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: but first let's talk about why copper matters so much, 15 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: because I'll admit I don't spend a whole lot of 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: time worrying about the global copper supply, and I suspect 17 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: you might not either. In fact, our producer Michael Falero 18 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: went out onto the street in Washington, d C. To 19 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: measure people's copper i Q. He asked them a simple question. 20 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: A smartphone and air conditioner, an extension cord in a car. 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: What material do they all share is plastic mercury motherboard? 22 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: Why is um aluminium? Copper? All right, it's not a 23 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: trick question. Don't I ever think it? Right? I absolutely 24 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: would have failed that quiz. So I feel a bit 25 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: better that most of those folks did too. If we're 26 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: looking toward a future of clean energy, clean electricity, copper 27 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: is a critical ingredient and we'll need more and more 28 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: of it. So we asked a couple of people who 29 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: do spend a lot of time worrying about the global 30 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: copper supply to explain what a big deal it is. 31 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: Von Lee is a metals and mining reporter for Bloomberg 32 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: based in New York. One thing is that if you're 33 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: believing this electrification story, then copper really has the the 34 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: feature for that, because copper has the most conductivity of 35 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 1: all metals. Basically, not only your e vs need copper, 36 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: but power grids, energy storage, wind turbines, solar panels, they 37 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: all need copper because copper is simply is kind of 38 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: the best metal for electrification. So how much copper does 39 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: the world need? Well, think about this. The average car 40 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: contains sixty pounds of copper. That's about twenty nine kilos. 41 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: For an electric vehicle or e V, it can be 42 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: a lot more. Here's James Atwood, senior Commodities reporter for 43 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: Bloomberg based in Antiago, Chile, one of the world's biggest 44 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: carper producers. Being an electric vehicle, it can be doubled 45 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: or as much as four times that amount because of 46 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: the reach out of batteries. And it's electric gun basically 47 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: anything with word electric, and it means there's going to 48 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: be a lot of copper. And you know, whatever, prices 49 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: of copper go up, and then people look at things 50 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: like aluminium and even plastic as alternatives of substitutes for copper. 51 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: But there's no easy substitutes for the copper. Globally, Minds 52 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: produce about twenty one million metric tons of copper each year, 53 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: and in a little more than a decade, the world's 54 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: demand is expected to more than double. I sat down 55 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: with Van and James to hear more about what's at stake. Yes, 56 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: I mean coppers right now is sitting on about seven thousand, 57 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: five hundred dollars a ton. It was more than ten 58 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: thousand dollars earlier. This year. There are several analysts who 59 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: are looking at more like fifteen thousand, and they're not 60 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: too disid future, so doubling prices so that obviously that 61 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: has a vary on water inflation, the potential to be 62 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: constraints on growth, but it also has a potential to 63 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: be a constraint on zero targets. How long does it 64 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: take to make a new mind. Let's say today I 65 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: have all the money in the world, and I want 66 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: to get a big, rich vein of copper, and I 67 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: know where it is and have the permits. How long 68 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: will it take? It takes about eight to ten years, 69 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: give or a take. You need to build a mind. 70 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: That takes years, and for a mind to be fully operating, 71 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: that's a multi year process. That's why we are saying 72 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: people are worried that we don't have enough investment right 73 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: now because down the line the next five years or so, 74 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: we will be needing all the copper. And that's why 75 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: if we don't have investment now, then we will be 76 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: running out of copper really soon. Do you envision a 77 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: sort of a balance here where we need copper for 78 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: renewable sources of energy and we need for all kinds 79 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: of other things that we're going to need in the future, 80 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: and yet it's dirty to produce. Is there a balance 81 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,119 Speaker 1: where the environmental costs of new mining and extensive extra 82 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: mining from existing minds is outweighed by the benefit down 83 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: the road or do we eventually come to a point 84 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: where we're gonna need something else besides copper. Yes, I 85 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: think the kind of like environmental and economic benefits outweigh 86 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: the dirty part of copper mining, because I feel like, 87 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: if we are really serious about decombronization, we want to 88 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: electrify the economy, there has to be some short term 89 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: compromise to make so that we can achieve long term decombronization. Yes, 90 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: we usually associate mining with kind of like dirty you 91 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: see dust and blast explosion and things like that, but 92 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: the benefit of having all the medals in a circular 93 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: economy is really beneficial to this clear energy future. So 94 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: looking down the road, how concerned should people be that 95 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: copper isn't going to be available, that products are gonna 96 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: rise in price as a result of it or be 97 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,239 Speaker 1: in short supply, and that the move toward non carbon 98 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: based energy, cleaner energy is going to stall out if 99 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: we cannot solve this looming copper shortage. I guess what 100 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: just has to be stuck with fossil fia for a 101 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: relatively longer period of time. And I guess if you 102 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 1: want to buy an evy, you'll have to pay a 103 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: lot more. Then if we solve the copper shortage problem. 104 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: In the short term, prices are coming off a bit 105 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: lower than they were. Demand out look needs to demand 106 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: that looks bleak just as demand weakens or seems to 107 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: be weakening, supplies coming on. That's what's causing this short 108 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: term pullback. But all that changes, according to the analysts 109 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: that middle part of this decade, and that's when the 110 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: tightness really starts become being more visible. And we'll start 111 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: the points. But when you talk to people kind of 112 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: in the industry, are they worried about what's gonna happen. Yeah, 113 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: they were just saying kind of like, we don't have 114 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: the investment we need for the foreseeable future. So that's 115 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: going to be a huge problem. And I would say, 116 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: if Elon Musk is really serious about energy transition, you 117 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: should invest in copper mining. Thank you so much, James 118 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: Edwin von Lee. Really appreciate you taking the time and 119 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: educating us on this big problem. Thank you for having me. 120 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: After the break, I talked with Bloomberg reporter Matthew Hill 121 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: about what it's like to go deep underground in a 122 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: Zambie and copper mind. So we've been talking about how 123 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: important copper is to an energy future with our fossil 124 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: fuels for clean energy, and one of the big problems 125 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: is that there is going to be a shortage of 126 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: copper and coming years. There is a whole lot of 127 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: copper in one place though, and that is in Southern 128 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: Africa and Zambia, in the area around the Democratic Republic 129 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: of Congo. So you'd think, great, they have big minds there. 130 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: We can get the copper, but not so fast. Matthew 131 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: Hill is joining me now. He's Bloomberg reporter based in 132 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: Umbumbella in eastern South Africa, and he has written a 133 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: story called The Medals for your ev are stuck in 134 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: a thirty mile African traffic jam Matt, thanks for being here. Yeah, 135 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: thanks very much for having me on. So you went 136 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: to this enormous mind in Zambia which produces a whole 137 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: lot of copper. How much copper is there in this region, 138 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: the central African copper belt that extends from southern Democratic 139 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: Republic of Congo into northern Zambia northwestern Zambia. The area 140 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 1: is bigger than the size of the country of Portugal, 141 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: but over the past few decades very little of that 142 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: copper has been exploited. Right now, together Zambia and the 143 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: Congo only account for about twelve of global copper production, 144 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: but there is the potential to produce much much more 145 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: than that. So there are many many tons of copper 146 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: under the ground and if they can get at it, 147 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: it could go a long way to alleviating a future 148 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: copper shortage. Exactly. So, Um you mentioned Democratic Republic of Congo, 149 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: which sits right in Zambia's border to the north, and 150 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: between the two of them there is an enormous amount 151 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: of copper and a lot of travel between them to 152 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: get that copper out, and that is the subject of 153 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: your story. You went to a very large copper mine 154 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: in Zambia and show just how hard it is to 155 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: get it out of the ground and get it then 156 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: to where it needs to be. Can you describe the mind? 157 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: What did you see there? What was it like? The 158 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 1: mind that we went to is in a small town 159 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: called Muffu Lira in northern Zambia. Operations they're actually started 160 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, so it's one of Africa's oldest 161 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: copper mines. It's also one of Africa's deepest copper minds. 162 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: We went down a new shoft just recently built, that 163 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: extends one thousand five meters below the Earth's surface. All right, 164 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: you gotta ask you about this, because I've never been 165 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: down in the coppermine, and frankly, that sounds a little 166 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: terrifying to me. What it is it like to write 167 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: down one of those shafts to a mind that deep. Yeah, 168 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: it's quite crazy. You get in what the mining folk 169 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: call the cage um, which is just an industrial name 170 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: for a giant elevator. It ready goes quickly. We actually 171 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: went right down to the bottom of the mine. Even 172 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: though it's in the middle of the African continent, it's 173 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: actually below sea level. That's how deep it is. It's 174 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: quite an intense environment down there. I mean, the rocks 175 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: just because of the sheer pressure. You're going so deep 176 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: below the Earth's surface. The temperature of the rocks is 177 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: forty degrees celsius, which for those Americans is very high. Yeah, 178 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: I mean that's well well into the nineties. It's also 179 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: one of the Earth's wettest copper mines because it's in 180 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: Central Africa. There's a lot of rain during the wet season, 181 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: and that permeates, I mean it takes a long time, 182 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: but that permeates down below the Earth's surface, and you've 183 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: got these huge underground rivers flowing at this particular mining shot. 184 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: They have to pump up the equivalent of forty seven 185 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: Olympic sized swimming pools worth of water every day, and 186 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: that's just to keep it from flooding the mine shafts exactly. 187 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: So they've got these massive underground pump stations which are 188 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: just constantly pumping up to the surface this water that's 189 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: flowing down. I mean it's like waterfalls and you're walking 190 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: through pools of water, little underground streams. It really is 191 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 1: one of the most extreme environments that I've ever been in. 192 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: And then how is the cover actually removed? What are 193 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: the miners do? Are they blasting it? Are they using 194 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: pixel It must be a fairly industrial activity, very much 195 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: so they blast or out of the or being the 196 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 1: rocks that contained the copper. They blasted out in my hands, 197 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: I've got some of the rocks that have been blasted 198 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: of the walls here. It's actually quite astounding how you 199 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: can see the copper visibly showing up in the rocks. 200 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: This is the richest copper that this mine has, and 201 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: it's got just slightly more than two grams of copper 202 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 1: per ton of rock. So to produce the copper, you've 203 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: got to move a lot of rock then loaded into 204 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: dump trucks. Those trucks haul it to the shot, which 205 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: is the vertical tunnel that goes down to the bottom 206 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: where it's loaded into cages and then hauled back up 207 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: to the surface where it goes through a whole other 208 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: process to produce a product that is ninety nine point 209 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: nine nine nine copper, so pretty pure. And that all 210 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: happens on the side of the mine where it is 211 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,599 Speaker 1: mine and refined to that very pure copper, which is 212 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: then essentially a product exactly. It's all within the vicinity 213 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: of the Muffule Era mine. How much is that copper 214 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: worth right now in the market if you look at 215 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: the current copper price, which is about seven thousand, five 216 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: hundred dollars per ton, And I must point out that 217 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: especially over the past year, the price has been extremely volatile. 218 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: It reached a new record above ten thousand dollars per 219 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: ton earlier this year um and has since fallen quite 220 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: a bit. But just at the current copper price, you 221 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: are looking at about six hundred and seventy five million dollars. 222 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: You can see why it's worth all this effort you 223 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: just described to get this out of the ground. Absolutely, 224 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: do we know who's buying it where it ends up. 225 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: The majority of that copper probably ends up in China, 226 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: which accounts for about of global copper demand. And that's 227 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: because China produces so much of the world's electronics and 228 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: solar panels and other things where copper is used exactly. 229 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: So you can imagine, I mean, when you're talking about 230 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: removing tons of earth at the end, only the tiniest, 231 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: tiniest portion of that is actually copper. Uh. And so 232 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: you are hauling an enormous amount out of the ground 233 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: in order to get very very little, which I guess 234 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: explains why copper is just so expensive in many ways. 235 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: That's the easy plot. There are no shortage of buyers 236 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: for all of that copper. By getting it into their 237 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: hands is a harrowing journey. When we come back, Matt 238 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: is going to describe the very long trip by truck 239 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: to get that copper to port. Matt, So, you went 240 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: down into the mine and you watched how it is 241 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: brought up from deep in the ground and refined into copper, 242 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: and next is trying to get into the hands of 243 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: the people who want to use it. Um, can you 244 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: describe exactly what it takes to do that? Well, it 245 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: must be one of the most difficult jobs in the world, 246 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: if not one of the longest jobs in the world 247 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: to complete. Watch should be a relatively simple task. From 248 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: the Democratic Republic of Congo, the mind's just north of 249 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: the Zambian border there, which are actually much bigger than 250 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: the Zambian minds in terms of production. You are looking 251 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: at about three thousand kilometers down to the port of Durban, 252 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: just off South Africa's east coast, which has always been 253 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: the most important port for copper exports out of the 254 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: Central African copper belt for both Zambia as well as 255 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: the Democratic Republic of Congo. That three thousand kilometer journey 256 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: this yeah, it's taken more than thirty days, and that 257 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: trip is incredibly long. And heroin. Can you describe it? 258 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: Because you in a long this route and you saw 259 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: what it's like to transport copper. One of the most 260 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: interesting things I've ever seen in my life is the 261 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: Kasumba lesser border between Zambia and the Congo. That in 262 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: essence is where the biggest problem is. Um You've got 263 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: on the Zambian side a queue of trucks waiting to 264 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: cross into the Democratic Republic of Congo about fifty kilometers long. 265 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: So that's where the title of your story comes as 266 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: about thirty two miles. So there's thirty two mile long 267 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: queue of trucks all just waiting to get underwetg Yeah, 268 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: and these drivers are there for days, I mean as 269 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: as long as a week it takes to cross that border. 270 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: Why does it take so long across the border. The 271 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: growth in production out of the copper mines in the 272 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: Democratic Republic of Congo has been so large that the 273 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: customs officials haven't been able to keep up. So it 274 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: takes that long just to get your papers and make 275 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 1: it all officials so that you can then just hit 276 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: the road exactly. The border process is extremely slow, and 277 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: these drivers spend as long as a week waiting in 278 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: these queues. So what are they doing? I mean they're 279 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: sitting in trucks. Where do they sleep, how do they eat? 280 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: What is the scene like? They're everything's just centered around 281 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: the cabin of their truck. That's their home. And bear 282 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: in mind that there's this is rural rural Africa. In 283 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: many stretches of of the queue, there's not even villages. 284 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: So these these drivers are just sitting chatting to the 285 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: other drivers. There's no toilets, there's no showers, there's no 286 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: real formal shops or restaurants. This is rural Africa that 287 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: these guys are sitting in the end. I mean, the 288 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: temperatures there in the summertime get extremely hot. And in 289 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: your story you talk about how a whole informal economy 290 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: has grown up around serving these drivers needs at the 291 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: consumer lesser border itself. It's extremely interesting because you've you've 292 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: got this hive of activity that sprung up around um 293 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: just this cross border commerce between the Zambie and Congo, 294 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: a lot of it being almost all of it being 295 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: because of the mining industry. So you've got guys walking 296 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:45,479 Speaker 1: around in modified, heavily modified bicycles. They don't even have 297 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: seats they just built to transport goods, water, cookies, or 298 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: even charcoal that the truck drivers and other people used 299 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: to cook their food. There's just this whole high of 300 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: informal economy that's trying to make money off the truck 301 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: drivers who have not much choice of how to fill 302 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: their bellies or where to get drinking water and that 303 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: sort of thing. You talked to a lot of the 304 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: drivers while they were just sitting there waiting to get underway. 305 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: What did they have to say about their lives. Well, 306 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: they are very appreciative of how and the scriptive of 307 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: how tough their jobs are. Most of them are very 308 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: eager to speak to me because they have an incredibly 309 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: difficult job and they want to tell people about that. 310 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: One of the things that the drivers were most eager 311 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: to speak about is just how dangerous it is for 312 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: them to cross into the Democratic Republic of Congo. They 313 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: complained bitterly about police corruption. They're basically police demanding that 314 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: they pay bribes. It's none on corruption. And because the 315 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: police there, even if you haven't done nothing, they can 316 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:11,679 Speaker 1: even come to your truck and my brother, ah, I 317 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: can see your light is not okay. He hasn't even 318 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: checked the truck, so you must have something on the 319 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: on the road. No money, ah, you can die. There's 320 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: also a problem of crime when the drivers are sitting 321 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: there with their trucks and sort of like sitting ducks 322 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: for thieves. Yeah, exactly. Um And a few of the 323 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: drives that I spoke to raise that issue, one of 324 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: them said that he basically has to sleep with one 325 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: eye open because, especially this year, with the rocketing price 326 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: of diesel um that's awesome, made the diesel in their 327 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: trucks a very lucrative target for thieves. You do sleep 328 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 1: like absolutely pink because sometimes when you hear someone who 329 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: move around that outside work up and then if they're 330 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: able to make it through and it reaches port, then 331 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: what happens Earlier this year, the Port of Bourbon in 332 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: South Africa, which is the port that the mining companies 333 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: rely on more than any other in the region to 334 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: export their copper, that the Port of Bourbon was hit 335 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: by floods not seen in decades. The floods not only 336 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: killed more than four people, but they caused severe damage 337 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: to the port. The damage that these floods caused has 338 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: only made matters worse when I visited the port earlier 339 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: this year. It was still recovering from the floods. They 340 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: washed away roads and damaged warehouses. It's very difficult to 341 00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: explain how bad the damage was. So if these drivers 342 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: are waiting as long as two weeks just to get 343 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: out of Congo and into Zambia and then they have 344 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: to go on this very dangerous and long trek down 345 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: to port, how long does it on average take to 346 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: get a load of copper from the mind to the port. 347 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: From the companies that I spoke to this year, they 348 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: considered about a month of fairly average time. Matt Is 349 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: the world's demand increases for this copper, it seems like 350 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: this is not a process that can go on forever. 351 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: They're going to have to do something about this to 352 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: make it more efficient. Is anything actually being done to 353 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: ease the supply line from the mind to the ports 354 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 1: so that it is not this just like mad max 355 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: like story that you've described here. This is the billion 356 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: dollar question. So far, what companies have been doing to 357 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: try solve the problem of congestion is to throw more 358 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: trucks at it, which of course only makes more congestion. Ultimately, 359 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: the most sustainable solution is to improve rail connectivity. That's 360 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: what a lot of the mining companies have been saying 361 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: they need to be able to move more of the 362 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 1: logistics onto rail, but building rail is expensive and it 363 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: takes a long time. Is other actually plans to do 364 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: that now? I mean the Congolese government a few months 365 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: ago unveiled an investment plan of about fifty eight billion 366 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: dollars to upgrade their country's infrastructure. A lot of that 367 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: is required for both road and rail. The Zambian government 368 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: already has a railway line connecting the copper belt to 369 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: the port of Darius Salam in Tanzania, but that's fallen 370 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: into complete disrepair, so that's going to take a lot 371 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: of investment to get the upper end and running again. 372 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 1: There is also a railway connectivity from the Zamian copper 373 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: belt to the port of Durban, but once again that's 374 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: going to need a lot of investment. It's not that 375 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: there will be one solution, but probably a number of 376 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: different solutions which were require investment from both the governments 377 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: involved as well as private companies to make sure that 378 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: there is a sustainable way to get the copper out 379 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: of this resource that the world desperately needs over the 380 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: next couple of decades to the places that needed Matt Hell, 381 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. Thank you very much 382 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: for having me. I've really enjoyed talking about this. You 383 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: can read more about Matthew Hill's journey to the Zambie 384 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: and Coppermann and see photos of his trip at Bloomberg 385 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: dot com. That's also where you'll find the latest reporting 386 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: from Yvan Lee and James Atwood. Thanks for listening to 387 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: us here at The Big Tech, the daily podcast from 388 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: bloom Berg and I Heart Radio. For more shows from 389 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 390 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen. Read today's story and subscribe to 391 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: our daily newsletter at Bloomberg dot com slash Big Take, 392 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: and we'd love to hear from you. Email us with 393 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. 394 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: The supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Burgalina. 395 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Katherine Fink. Our producers are Moe 396 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: Barrow and Michael Falerro Hill de Garcia is our engineer. 397 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: Original music by Leo Sidrin. I'm West Casova. Have a 398 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: great weekend.