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Speaker 1: The show goes on. This is the official show on

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Speaker 1: the fish on First podcast channel with me Eli Sussman,

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Speaker 1: the founder of fish on First, bringing you complete Miami

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Speaker 1: Marlins coverage and a little bit of Baseball Hall of

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Speaker 1: Fame coverage, at least on this episode of the show,

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by Lewis Addio Weiss from my staff. He

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Speaker 1: is perhaps our foremost Hall of Fame expert or enthusiasts

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Speaker 1: at the very least, even if he's not an expert,

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Speaker 1: but I consider him having quite a bit of expertise

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Speaker 1: in this area. Recording this final look at December, the

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Speaker 1: final few days of the Hall of Fame BBWAA voting period,

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Speaker 1: we still have our last chance to influence the experts

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Speaker 1: out there that actually have voting power in this subject.

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Speaker 1: The votes have been coming in tracking how things are going.

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Speaker 1: We already know former Marlins manager Jim Leland he's going

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Speaker 1: into the Hall of Fame in the class of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four. So now the question is which players are

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Speaker 1: going to join him. Those are the ones that are

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Speaker 1: on this ballots and get elected in this particular way,

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Speaker 1: a few of them with Marlin's connections. One player in particular,

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Speaker 1: very strong Marlin's connections in here for everybody watching us

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Speaker 1: on YouTube, hope you enjoy. We're also wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts, search for Fish on first subscribe to us

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Speaker 1: over there almost a two thousands YouTube subscribers, so if

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Speaker 1: we get to that number before the new year, all

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Speaker 1: the better. Encourage you guys to do that and pass

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Speaker 1: that around, because we do a whole lot more video

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Speaker 1: content on this channel in addition to our podcast episodes.

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Speaker 1: But you will be able to find all our shows

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Speaker 1: on here, from the official show Fish on Filtered, big Fish,

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Speaker 1: Small Pod, et cetera. You'll find those here talking about

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Speaker 1: Marlin's stuff and a time of year where the Marlins

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Speaker 1: themselves aren't giving us a whole lot of contemporary content

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Speaker 1: to cover, like the felt like the perfect time to

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Speaker 1: pivot to the Hall of Fame discussion. So the ballot

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Speaker 1: up on the screen for people watching at home, The

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Speaker 1: pretty Stacks ballot, isn't it, Lewis, It's hard to go wrong.

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Speaker 1: It's a deep one, a lot of different backgrounds and

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Speaker 1: profiles to consider here. I think we're in a pretty

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Speaker 1: good position to discuss.

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Speaker 2: And then a lot of guys that obviously you and

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Speaker 2: I deem Hall of Famers, and even the guys that

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Speaker 2: we feel are going to fall off first year, like

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Speaker 2: just terrific careers and individual moments that we still remember

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Speaker 2: despite the fact that their careers as a whole may

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Speaker 2: not be you know, worthy of induction for the standards

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Speaker 2: that we've kind of established over time since the Hall

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Speaker 2: opened in nineteen thirty six. But yeah, I mean, this

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Speaker 2: is honestly one of the most exciting ballots I remember

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Speaker 2: in recent years. There's still a bit of controversy surrounding it,

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Speaker 2: given a couple of the names that are on there,

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Speaker 2: but then again, there's also been enough time that's passed

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Speaker 2: where these opinions regarding say, steroid guys or people who

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Speaker 2: have kind of done things things that go against baseball's

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Speaker 2: unspoken moral code, we've kind of come to better form

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Speaker 2: opinions on, or at least we have more nuanced opinions

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Speaker 2: on at this stage. Yeah, I mean, I'm very excited

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Speaker 2: about this announcement because there's just, you know, given the

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Speaker 2: way I consume baseball and what and maybe what numbers

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Speaker 2: I value relative to people who you know, other people say,

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Speaker 2: people who grew up watching baseball, you know, a generation

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Speaker 2: or so for me. It's a very interesting ballot and

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Speaker 2: a lot of guys that I remember. I mean, definitely

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Speaker 2: as a baseball fan, a sign of your own mortality

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Speaker 2: is watching guys that you vividly remember playing when you

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Speaker 2: were a teenager be on the Hall of Fame ballot.

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Speaker 2: So you know, the sign of the times for sure,

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Speaker 2: but a very exciting ballot nonetheless.

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Speaker 1: In total, we got twenty six players on the ballot

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Speaker 1: this year, twelve first time ors, fourteen returning players. At

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Speaker 1: the end of this show, we'll walk you through our

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Speaker 1: own picks and try to justify how we would fill

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Speaker 1: out the ballot under BBWAA rules where you can only

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Speaker 1: well for a maximum of ten that are on this ballot.

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Speaker 1: And in between we'll just go one by one through

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Speaker 1: most of the notable players on here and try to

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Speaker 1: maybe teach you guys a thing or two or just

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Speaker 1: give our perspective on them one way or another. Of

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Speaker 1: all the players on here, lewis, which is there anyone

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Speaker 1: in particularly that stands out as one that you're most

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Speaker 1: confident in getting elected in the classes?

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Speaker 2: I mean, the elephant in the room, as far as

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Speaker 2: you know, most obvious is obvious is Adrian Beltray. And

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Speaker 2: you know, you can kind of go down the list,

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Speaker 2: and I don't think it's any surprise to say that

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Speaker 2: he'll be on both of our lists at the end

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Speaker 2: of this episode. You know, you have, you know, ninety

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Speaker 2: three plus Baseball reference war a combination of power and defense.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we talk about Andrew Jones as somebody whose

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Speaker 2: first ten years were just about, you know, the best

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Speaker 2: we had ever seen from a center fielder minus Willy Mays,

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Speaker 2: and I think this the opposite can kind of be

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Speaker 2: said to an extent for Adrian Beltray, where if you

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Speaker 2: compare the relative adjusted ops pluses and even their home

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Speaker 2: run numbers, Andrew Jroones doesn't have a lot of accounting

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Speaker 2: stats that Beltray does. They kind of aged in reverse order.

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Speaker 2: And but Beltray and adjusted ops plus they're very similar.

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Speaker 2: But Beltra is just overall combination of skills. You know,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's for every Willie Mays and Barry Bonds,

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Speaker 2: you know, guys who could essentially do everything. There were

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Speaker 2: guys that did a lot of things very well, and

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Speaker 2: maybe not to the degree of those guys. I feel

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Speaker 2: like Beltray kind of falls into that category. But then

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Speaker 2: there's other things that this guy does particularly Beltray, that

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Speaker 2: are far and above above everybody else. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: Beltray is a defensive run safe stalwart. I mean, if

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Speaker 2: you go by drs in the history of baseball since

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Speaker 2: two thousand and three, when that stat's been tracked only

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Speaker 2: Anderton Simmons has the same number of drs as Adriw Beltray,

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Speaker 2: I mean he saved by drs. And that's not including

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Speaker 2: the first parts of the first five seasons of his

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Speaker 2: career two hundred runs on defense, and that's as he

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Speaker 2: aged as well. So I mean, if you like just

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Speaker 2: you know, think about it, and then you look at the

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Speaker 2: total out of his career, he's got the three thousand hits,

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Speaker 2: you know, four hundred and seventy five plus home runs.

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Speaker 2: You can argue that maybe he deserved more gold gloves

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Speaker 2: given how superlative his defense was, but you know, he's honestly,

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Speaker 2: he's one of the most and just as a personality,

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Speaker 2: like you know, there, you know, that's just kind of

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Speaker 2: like the icing on the cake of an already incredible

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Speaker 2: historic career. He's you know, top three to five third

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Speaker 2: basement of all time for me, and clearly is the

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Speaker 2: most obvious guy just by mere value accrued over the

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Speaker 2: course of his career. He is the guy that I

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Speaker 2: think we'll see get enfor sure this year.

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Speaker 1: He won't get in unanimously for anybody that is not

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Speaker 1: following the track. And we'll be referring to this throughout

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Speaker 1: the show. The Hall of Fame tractor that Ryan Thibodeau

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Speaker 1: has operated for at least a decade. At this point,

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Speaker 1: fifty seven official ballots have been revealed to him, submitted

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Speaker 1: to him, shared with him in one way or another,

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Speaker 1: and Beltre only appearing on fifty six of them as

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Speaker 1: of this recording, so ninety eight point two percent that

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Speaker 1: is his vote percentage. Only one person kept him out

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Speaker 1: and really didn't elaborate on why they didn't. That is

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Speaker 1: a theme that you usually see from very questionable ballots,

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Speaker 1: is that there's not a whole lot justifying or explaining

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Speaker 1: the rationale behind them. Still pacing extremely well, and I

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Speaker 1: agree with you that it's it does feel like a

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Speaker 1: lock that he's going to get in. It feels like

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Speaker 1: a lock that he's going to get ninety plus percent,

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Speaker 1: even for those that aren't as infatuated with his defense.

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Speaker 1: When you combine that with three thousand hits, that is

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Speaker 1: typically the magic threshold to cross. When you cross that

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Speaker 1: and you do it as a good all round player,

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Speaker 1: and you do it clean or perceived to be completely clean,

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Speaker 1: then it's yeah, there's really not a whole lot to

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Speaker 1: think of there. And you mentioned it as well, like

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Speaker 1: for whatever bonus points you give to a player for

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Speaker 1: being one of the most mimable players of the twenty tens.

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Speaker 1: He was such a joy to watch during most supposed

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Speaker 1: to be the latter half of his career, like or

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Speaker 1: the decline phase of his career, and he just didn't

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Speaker 1: decline until maybe the very last year is when he

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Speaker 1: started getting closer to being just human again. He just

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Speaker 1: had this really delightful and unexpectedly smooth plateau throughout his

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Speaker 1: thirties where it was just consistently an all star caliber

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Speaker 1: guy or something very close to it.

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Speaker 2: And I think the only controversy that you can maybe

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Speaker 2: associate with him is and it's not necessarily him, it's

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Speaker 2: the it's the controversy surrounding the way he signed. I

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Speaker 2: believe there was something that arose when the Dodgers sign him.

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Speaker 2: They lied about his age, and they had signed him

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Speaker 2: before he had turned sixteen, and that's when players from overseas,

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Speaker 2: reverently Cuba, Dominican Mexico can signed big professional contracts, and

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Speaker 2: I believe the Dodgers did get into some trouble for that.

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Speaker 2: But other than that, there's nothing that Adrien bel Trade

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Speaker 2: did outside of move on the batter's box or on

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Speaker 2: the ondeck circle that suggests that he shouldn't be a

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Speaker 2: Unianius Hall of Famer. And given that, there's guys who

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Speaker 2: may wanted to allocate their votes to the guys that

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Speaker 2: they felt deserved a longer look, or they just felt

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Speaker 2: like it's the griffy thing he's going to get in,

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Speaker 2: Like why am I going to waste a vote on him? Then?

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't understand why you wouldn't vote for

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Speaker 2: the guy, But I mean, he is the most slam

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Speaker 2: dunk on this ballot and maybe in a while that

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Speaker 2: we've seen for you know, first time eligible guys.

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Speaker 1: Sticking with these first time eligible players, Joe Mauer is

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Speaker 1: on there for the first time a long time Minnesota

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Speaker 1: Twins super duper star catcher won an MVP. His peak

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Speaker 1: was about as high as anybody's. It just didn't last

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Speaker 1: very long. He transitioned to playing first base the second

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Speaker 1: half of his career. It's a big part of his legacy, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: is the fact that at the time he said he

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Speaker 1: signed what was there a record setting contractors, at least

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Speaker 1: for catchers. It was like unprecedented money for a catcher.

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Speaker 1: And almost immediately after that the injuries started catching up

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Speaker 1: with him. His offense than age well, very complicated player

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Speaker 1: here where his peak was terrific, but then he just

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Speaker 1: ended on such a relatively sour note as kind of

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Speaker 1: a disappointment and an albatross, and his team, like all

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Speaker 1: things considered, how do you think he's going to do

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Speaker 1: on this ballot?

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, so I have to. I have two

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Speaker 2: ways that I kind of assessed Joe Mauer, and on

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Speaker 2: one end, you know, you can make the case that

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Speaker 2: he was a lesser version of Johnny Bench in the

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Speaker 2: first half his career, and you look at adjusted ops

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Speaker 2: plus and his adjusted ops plus mirrors Bench, who again

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Speaker 2: we credit as a catcher, and he won I believe

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Speaker 2: was a nine or ten gogals as a catcher. But

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Speaker 2: Johnny Bench also had experienced playing games in the outfield

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Speaker 2: and first base and third base, and near the end

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Speaker 2: of Johnny Bench's career, Johnny Bench was primarily a third

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Speaker 2: baseman and a first basement. So you know, even he is,

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Speaker 2: you know, the all around mighty best catcher of all time,

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Speaker 2: even he was subject to moving across the field way

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Speaker 2: that Mawer played first base and you know, the outfield

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Speaker 2: cameos likes. But back to your question, I mean, he

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Speaker 2: was a first the first half is his career. He's

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Speaker 2: one of the one of the best, you know, catchers

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Speaker 2: we had ever seen as far as just a complete profile.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this was a guy who led his basketball

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Speaker 2: team in scoring in high school. He had a scholarship

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Speaker 2: to like quarterback and University of Minnesota, if I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 2: Like he was just an all around gifted athlete, and

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Speaker 2: he clearly made the right choice of baseball, albeit he

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Speaker 2: did sustain some injuries. You know, he had the problems

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Speaker 2: with the concussions and all those accompanying injuries after the fact,

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Speaker 2: and you can make the debate that he was more

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Speaker 2: of about a league average to a slightly above the

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Speaker 2: average hit or once he became a first baseman, and

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Speaker 2: that his offense never really matched up with what the

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Speaker 2: prototypical first baseman was expected to do. But there there's

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Speaker 2: just something about you know, Maur that you know, that

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Speaker 2: sweet swing, the fact that he was a good I

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Speaker 2: would say good, not great defender. I think maybe you know,

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Speaker 2: him being a good defensive catcher kind of in conjunction

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Speaker 2: with being a terrific offensive catcher makes his good defensive

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Speaker 2: production look a little bit better, and just assessing him

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Speaker 2: as an all around player. But I could see on

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Speaker 2: one end, he doesn't get in first year and he

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Speaker 2: gets in next year because it's just like you know,

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Speaker 2: some voters say no, they look again and you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe a year from now, and they're like, yeah, like

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Speaker 2: this guy, you know, just for the first half of

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Speaker 2: his career was incredible, and I guess you can kind

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Speaker 2: of say it's like Andrew Jones light, but Maers decline

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Speaker 2: wasn't as precipitous as Jones as was. I mean, Andrew

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Speaker 2: Jones looked like Pokey Reese in the second half of

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Speaker 2: his career after looking like you know, Willie May's light

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Speaker 2: for the first decade or so. So I mean, I'm

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Speaker 2: I'm a pro Maur Hall of Fame guy, but I

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Speaker 2: also understand that, you know, his career feels incomplete given

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Speaker 2: some of the counting stats aren't there.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: He has the two thousand plus hits, He has the MVP,

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Speaker 2: the things that the traditional voters liked, the round numbers,

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Speaker 2: the accolades that suggest like he was at one point

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Speaker 2: the best and at his respected position, and he was.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he hit three sixty five as a catchery.

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Speaker 2: He won three batting titles as a catcher, and I

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Speaker 2: think that alone suggests Hall of fame because you need

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Speaker 2: those peaks. And even then, like I can use an

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Speaker 2: example like a Karl Ushrensky who had a very consistently

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Speaker 2: high volume career, but Carl Yustrensky probably got in the

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Speaker 2: Hall of Fame on merits of the Triple Crown, the MVP,

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Speaker 2: and then the years where he gradually declined and was

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Speaker 2: still a good, albeit not superstar level player. And Mauer

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Speaker 2: didn't have as much of that downward inspiral performance that

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Speaker 2: would give him over the sixty war threshold get him

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Speaker 2: maybe twenty five hundred hits. So I don't use that

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Speaker 2: against him. I give a guy credit in realizing that, hey,

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Speaker 2: I've given the sport my all for what was it,

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Speaker 2: fourteen to fifteen years, and it's you know now is

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Speaker 2: as good as ever to hang it up while I

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Speaker 2: still have my you know, physical capabilities intact, so I

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Speaker 2: won't use it against him. And I mean personally, I

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Speaker 2: think maure given his at his best, he is a

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Speaker 2: Hall of Famer in my opinion, and I definitely had

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Speaker 2: him on my ballot as well.

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Speaker 1: We might as well stick with a very comparable player,

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Speaker 1: not quite comparable, but like the third base version of

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Speaker 1: mah Were in some ways, is David Wright, who throughout

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Speaker 1: his twenties one of the better players in all baseball,

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Speaker 1: especially at the third base. If you actually line up

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Speaker 1: the years in the mid and late two thousands, David

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Speaker 1: Wright was having better years than Adrian Beltra was at

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Speaker 1: the exact same time. It wasn't particularly close, but when Beltray,

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Speaker 1: as we touched on, he ates so gracefully. David Wright

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Speaker 1: suffered from I believe it was spinal stenosis that that

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Speaker 1: in other related conditions. He had a concussion issue at

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Speaker 1: one point, but it took out what was basically his

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Speaker 1: entire thirties, and he was the captain of the Mets,

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Speaker 1: and he was still very well liked, but he just

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Speaker 1: could not get on the field very much at all,

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Speaker 1: and his peaks didn't last particularly long. So his counting

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Speaker 1: stats don't really jump out to you. But he's another

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Speaker 1: first time eligible player. We'll see that. Maw're on here.

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Speaker 1: He's going to be close in his first year, it seems,

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Speaker 1: tracking over eighty percent of the boat so far, whereas

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Speaker 1: David Wright only seven percent. So the question with Wright

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Speaker 1: is to see even get for sure more than one

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Speaker 1: shot to stay on the ballot and make an impression.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that to do the uniqueness of his case,

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Speaker 1: you think he's going to get enough to just at

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Speaker 1: least stick around for the twenty twenty five balloting.

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Speaker 2: So and it's so similar to Mauer. But again, Wright

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Speaker 2: gave us so little and that wasn't his fault. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we knew he tried everything upon the spinal sinosis diagnosis.

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Speaker 2: I believe in that was twenty fourteen or fifteen to

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Speaker 2: two come back. But if you just look at the

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Speaker 2: overall profile, I mean, it's like seven thousand or so

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Speaker 2: played appearances of a one thirty three ops plus, Like

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Speaker 2: that's pretty remarkable. I mean, you could look at the

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Speaker 2: number of third basemen who did that, and I'm sure

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Speaker 2: it's you know, it's not many. But then you say, like,

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Speaker 2: look at a guy like Scott Rowland, who again, like

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Speaker 2: had years near the end of his career where he

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Speaker 2: was less of you know, the player that we knew.

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Speaker 2: Albeit his defense aged well, David Wright maybe not the

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Speaker 2: best defender at third base, but he you know, he

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Speaker 2: kind of could not that he could fake it there,

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Speaker 2: but he had the body to play third base into

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Speaker 2: his early thirties. And it was really I think it

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Speaker 2: was the last time he had a full season. It

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Speaker 2: was thirty one. And you know, if you really want

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Speaker 2: to get pedantic with war, he his war is in

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Speaker 2: that same ballpark as Sandy Kofax. But David Wright wasn't

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Speaker 2: for four or five years as transcendent as Kofax was.

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Speaker 2: And you know that's not to go against him. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he was a terrific player. I mean, like, if you

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Speaker 2: kept playing, you probably would have stolen two undred fifty bases,

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Speaker 2: hit over three hundred home runs, easily eclipsed two thousand hits.

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Speaker 2: And yes, he would have declined, but I think his

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Speaker 2: numbers at the end of the day would have been

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Speaker 2: in that like Ron Santo tier I mean of somebody

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Speaker 2: who you know would have gotten more Hall of Fame love.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it's similar like a catfish hunter or like,

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Speaker 2: if you really want an example, Thurman Munson. Thurman Munson,

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Speaker 2: who accrued about forty six War as a catturer, which

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Speaker 2: again Merritt's more of a look for him, though the

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Speaker 2: ensuing ballots he's been on following falling off haven't been

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Speaker 2: enough to get him elected. He died in a plane

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Speaker 2: crash at the age of thirty two, and David Wright,

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Speaker 2: his career, you know, fortunately didn't end as tragically, was

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Speaker 2: kind of cut short due to injury. But they sit

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Speaker 2: in that same war threshold. They were similar players for

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Speaker 2: their respective positions as far as sag goes, being well

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Speaker 2: regarded playing in New York, but they never really got

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Speaker 2: that opportunity to further add to their case. And I

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Speaker 2: feel like, you know, I think I wrote one time

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Speaker 2: that I felt like Thurman Munson and David Wright were

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Speaker 2: kind of like the one one for like careers cut

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Speaker 2: short outside of Sandy Kofax that deserve deeper Hall of

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Speaker 2: Fame looks. But the more I look at it now,

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Speaker 2: it's I just think, maybe, you know, he deserves maybe

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Speaker 2: more love, and if that love is getting at least

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Speaker 2: the minimum five percent to stay on the ballot, then

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Speaker 2: allow it. But I don't think he had, you know,

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Speaker 2: enough not down years, or enough years in the later

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Speaker 2: part of his thirties to accrue the numbers that would

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Speaker 2: suggest he is a Hall of Fame er. I think

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Speaker 2: he had a Hall of Fame peak, but I don't

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Speaker 2: think his career as a whole was enough to get

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Speaker 2: into the Hall of Fame.

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Speaker 1: Well, the one other first time candidate that we need

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Speaker 1: to be sure to give quite a bit time to

361
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Speaker 1: is one that you've already written quite extensively about former

362
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Speaker 1: Marlin's nemesis, Chase Utley his first year on the ballot

363
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Speaker 1: as well, somebody that was pretty inarguably the best player

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Speaker 1: on those Phillies teams. Yet at that time he wasn't

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Speaker 1: really recognized as the best player on those Phillies teams

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Speaker 1: because he didn't hit for as many as much power

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Speaker 1: as Ryan Howard. He didn't play shortstop like Jimmy Rollins did,

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Speaker 1: so he didn't have quite the accolade you would expect

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Speaker 1: from a surefire Hall of Fame candidate. And yet if

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Speaker 1: you just compare him to contemporaries as his own position,

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Speaker 1: and as you did on fish On first, if you

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Speaker 1: look at just his overall value that he provided during

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Speaker 1: the peak of his career. He is pretty squarely in

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Speaker 1: this conversation, and yeah, just give people a bit of

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Speaker 1: a summary of what it is that you find so

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Speaker 1: impressive about him.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we sports fans love the narrative of building

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Speaker 2: a team and winning, right, I think, as you or

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Speaker 2: I do, because it just kind of you know, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of decisions that have to be made, big

381
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,439
Speaker 2: and small, that go into the crafting eventual you know,

382
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Speaker 2: championship teams and even teams that make the playoffs. There's

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Speaker 2: merit in that as well. I mean, Chase Utley, like

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Speaker 2: for five seasons, like between two thousand and five and

385
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Speaker 2: twenty ten, other than maybe Alex Rodriguez, like was probably

386
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Speaker 2: the best all around player in baseball. Like, if you

387
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Speaker 2: look at war I think only Albert Poohles had more

388
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Speaker 2: war at a position of any player in baseball between

389
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Speaker 2: five and twenty and twelve that Chase Sutley did. And

390
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Speaker 2: he was a seven win player for five straight seasons.

391
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Speaker 2: And then if you assess him over two thousand and

392
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Speaker 2: five to say twenty twelve, that still averages out to

393
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Speaker 2: about a six win player. Now, those first half of

394
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Speaker 2: the you know, the first five or so years of

395
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Speaker 2: that sample, do a bit of the heavy lifting in

396
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Speaker 2: that kind of like average peak. But Chase Utley was,

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Speaker 2: you know, he's a sixty five war guy. He all

398
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Speaker 2: around efficiently, terrific bas runner, hit for power at second base,

399
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,159
Speaker 2: played defense that was not adequate, but that was not

400
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Speaker 2: fairly assessed in his career because he never want to

401
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Speaker 2: go of love. The biggest thing I can always, the

402
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 2: biggest case that can always make for him winning one

403
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 2: would have been two thousand and eight, the year where

404
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Speaker 2: Brandon Phillips, I believe won it for the Reds and

405
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 2: Chase ut Lee led all of baseball and defensive wins

406
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Speaker 2: of a replacement and saved something like thirty runs. He

407
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 2: has over one hundred and twenty fielding runs. But things

408
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 2: people will use against him are the counting stats. Obviously,

409
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Speaker 2: he doesn't have two thousand hits. He never won a

410
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Speaker 2: Goal of Glove, he never won an MVP, and I

411
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Speaker 2: think that's because we kind of unfortunately Chase Lee came

412
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Speaker 2: at a time when we were kind of just getting

413
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Speaker 2: out or in the last stages of traditional player evaluation.

414
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Speaker 2: You know, the rigor mortis hadn't fully set in on

415
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 2: devaluing counting stats, although we still use them in all

416
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 2: of him analysis, even when embracing the new age stuff.

417
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: I still think guys like Ryan Howard and you know,

418
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 2: Pat Burrow and Rollins his double play partner, and you know,

419
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 2: those guys stole a lot of the attention. But really

420
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Speaker 2: Utley was the guy on a team that won five

421
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Speaker 2: straight division titles. They went to two straight World Series,

422
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 2: and you know, you know, for things that guys like

423
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,959
Speaker 2: Ryan Howard blacked or you know, maybe Rollins lacked, Utley had,

424
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 2: you know, as a more well rounded player. And I

425
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Speaker 2: think that's why, similar to Beltree, I'll bee it to

426
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Speaker 2: a lesser extent, why I think he really I mean personally,

427
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Speaker 2: if it worked to me, he'd be in first ballot.

428
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Speaker 2: But I don't know if that's going to happen, though

429
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Speaker 2: he does seem to be getting a lot of support,

430
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Speaker 2: and it's interesting that we talk about him. I feel

431
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 2: like the election of the guys like Scott Role and

432
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: some of those analytic darling guys who did it with

433
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 2: defense and you know, above average albeit not like transcendent

434
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 2: offensive talents are getting elevated first time on the ballot.

435
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 2: Maybe Utley is like that first first time guy to

436
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 2: really benefit from that maybe the only electional guy like

437
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,479
Speaker 2: Roland and Larry Walker have kind of forced us to

438
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 2: do a deeper dive and maybe what we think is important.

439
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 2: And Utley is I think gonna be the first guy

440
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 2: as a first year candidate to benefit from the elect

441
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 2: the election of those guys. And like, I mean, if

442
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 2: it were up to me, I think he gets in

443
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 2: first ballot. He I hated him when he played, but

444
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 2: like assessing his career later on, like just you know

445
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,879
Speaker 2: everything that he did well. I mean first for me,

446
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 2: he's he's about as slam Dunk minus Beltray as I

447
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 2: think there is on this current ballot besides maybe another

448
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: guy that we're going to talk about shortly, but yeah,

449
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 2: Hall of Famer for me onred percent.

450
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: To add to your comparison to Roland. Roland's first year

451
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: on the ballot ten percent of the vote, and it

452
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 1: was an unprecedented rise from him to get from ten

453
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: to over seventy five in just five years. And utterly

454
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,199
Speaker 1: as of this recording, he's getting nearly half of the support.

455
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: It's looking doubtful that he gets in this year. But

456
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: when you have a first year number, that's saying we're

457
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 1: close to fifty that typically votes very well for somebody,

458
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: assuming there's not a whole lot of clutter around them.

459
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 1: These are the remaining of their first time eligible players.

460
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: Bartol Cologne, Matt Holliday, Adrian Gonzalez. He gave me a

461
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: fun nugget before we started recording, just about how Adrian Gonzalez,

462
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 1: even though he's not somebody that we really put in

463
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 1: this conversation, one of the most productive Padres players of

464
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: all time, if not the most outside of Tony Gwynn,

465
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 1: because they've they haven't really had a great tradition of

466
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: keeping their players long term, and a Gon spent most

467
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 1: of his prime there consistently putting up big power seasons.

468
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: Jose Battista, Jose rays former Marlin for one season, Victor Martinez,

469
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: James Shield, and the guy who stole all of Chase

470
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 1: Ully's gold glove hardware. Brandon Phillips won four gold gloves

471
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: in the National League, all of those overlapping with when

472
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: Utley was in the same league, but Phillips had a

473
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: flashier style. Any of those other guys that you think

474
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: is worth a conversation about, I.

475
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: Mean again, I think Matt Holliday is probably the best

476
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: player of everybody here as far as just you know,

477
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 2: you know, is a two ninety nine batting average, two

478
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 2: thousand hits. He clearly showed that you don't just hit

479
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 2: if you're in Colorado, as he's, oh yeah, this is

480
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: justice abs plus in Saint Louis is one thirty eight.

481
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 2: I believe in Colorado was like one thirty one or

482
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 2: one thirty three Adrian Zalees. While he may not be

483
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 2: a Hall of Famer, Marlins fans may forget, he was

484
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: the first overall pick I believe by them in two thousand,

485
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken, and you know, went to the

486
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: Rangers and then before settling with the Padres. But you know,

487
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: he may not be a Hall of Himer in my book,

488
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: and he'll probably be on one and done. But it

489
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 2: begs the mention that he was a superstar, if at

490
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 2: not one point the best player on three different teams.

491
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: So I think that itself is worthy of mentioning he

492
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 2: was the best player on the Padres in the mid

493
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 2: to late two thousands. Then he went to the Red

494
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: Sox and he was for a short time the best

495
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 2: player there. Then he went to the Dodgers in that

496
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: massive trade in twenty twelve, and for a short time

497
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: was the best position player on that team. So like

498
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 2: I think, like you know, he was a market consistency,

499
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 2: though the overall body of work isn't enough for me

500
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: to say, you know, he's a Hall of Famer, but

501
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: against somebody I'm marveled at watching play, just thought, you know,

502
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 2: he had such a smooth swing. He felt like like

503
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 2: a precursor to Freddy Freeiman, although Freddy Freeman is a

504
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 2: bit more athletic than Agon. But yeah, I know, great player,

505
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: butybe not the guy worthy of Hall of Fame consideration. Now,

506
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: James Shields, all I'll say is, you know, an innings eater,

507
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: he'd be worth a lot of money in today's game.

508
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 2: I think he had two hundred innings every year from

509
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 2: twenty seven to fifteen, and in the middle of that,

510
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: literally in the middle of that, in twenty eleven, he

511
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: threw something like eleven complete games, the last time we're

512
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: probably ever going to see anybody throw ten plus complete games,

513
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: especially now after you know Sandy al Contro, who mark

514
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 2: surprised us in his young season when he threw six

515
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: you know, having Tommy John Surgery. Who knows if we're

516
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: ever going to see that game, and maybe not in

517
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 2: our lifetime, but James Shields is probably like the last

518
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 2: of his own kind, you know, like a relic of

519
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 2: the days of Royal Halliday. You know, like I said

520
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 2: about Bautista, he had his moments, you know, definitely a

521
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,479
Speaker 2: nice Rocky esque story where he was you know, on

522
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: five teams in two thousand and four alone, kind of

523
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: kicked around with the Pirates, and then he was with

524
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: the Blue Jays for a couple of years before he

525
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 2: re modeled to swing out of the lead, kick the

526
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 2: fifty four home runs of twenty ten, and then he

527
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: was just one of the, if not the most consistent

528
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 2: power hitter in baseball for a good five to six

529
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 2: year stretch. Again, the overall body work just not enough

530
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 2: for me. Reyes was never a Hall of Famer for me.

531
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: And then you have the off the field stuff, you know,

532
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 2: an easy no yeah. Other than that, you know, Bartolo Cologne,

533
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 2: I think I don't there's anything I can add that

534
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 2: really hasn't been said about him already. Just kind of

535
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: like a fan favorite, despite you know, transgressions via the

536
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 2: PD suspension. He won a sion aware that I don't

537
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: think he necessarily deserved in my in my honest opinion,

538
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: hit the two thousand and five so young Hey won

539
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: is the one reason why Johann Santana got off the

540
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: ballot in his first year of Hall of Fame. Paul

541
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: Vane bout him because he would have won three consecutive

542
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: Cy Youngs. And I don't think you kick a guy

543
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: out despite how diminished his career is. If he wins

544
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: three cy Youngs in a row, you know that's Cofax esque,

545
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: so you know Cologne. But other than that, you know,

546
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: none of these guys here beyond the ones we've already

547
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: discussed scream or at least hint at Hall of Famer.

548
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: To me, don't close the book on Bartolo yet. He's

549
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: still adding to his playing accolades in Baseball United. That

550
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: new league gets sort of in the Middle East. They

551
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: I think their season officially gets going in late twenty

552
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: twenty four, and he's signed up for that. He's in

553
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: his fifties, but he is. He's still going along, still

554
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: piling up counting stats in brand new leagues. See what

555
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: those look like when he actually gets going?

556
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean heads up to colognea good, good

557
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 2: all around personality, but maybe not you know, Hall of

558
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: Fame worthy.

559
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: Pivoting to the guys that were returning from previous ballots

560
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: on here fourteen other players that were already on here

561
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: previous years, along with Lewis, Eddie Weiss, Eli Sussman. Here,

562
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: I guess the one that seems most likely to get in.

563
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: I think this is an order for people watching. This

564
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: is inn order from left to right, from top to

565
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: the bottom of guys that had the highest voting percentage

566
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: from twenty twenty three. Todd Helton was on the brink,

567
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: got over seventy percent in the previous voting cycle. Another

568
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 1: player that has spent his entire career playing home games

569
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: in high altitude, but that class ceiling was mostly shattered

570
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: by Larry Walker when he got in. The fact that

571
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,719
Speaker 1: Walker's stats were taken seriously during the time of his

572
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: career in Colorado, and now Helton, it seems that he's

573
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: getting just enough support to get over the line. So

574
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: how do you feel about him? And this would be

575
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: really sitting in. It'd be kind of unprecedented for somebody

576
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: that was a lifetime Rocky to get in and overcome

577
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: those biases that seem to work against them.

578
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: Here's my take on it that I feel like maybe

579
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 2: makes me a contrarian. The Colorado Rocky is the last

580
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: time I checked our major League baseball team. Yes, there's

581
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: thirty major League Baseball teams. Sure, I believe in things

582
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: like park factors, and I'm not a stranger to the

583
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 2: concept that hitting in course field is like something that

584
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: every hit or dreams of. Just look at Michael Kadier,

585
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: who is like an average hitter, and then for two

586
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: years he looked like Justin Morenau in Colorado. I believe

587
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: like wona batting title there. But if you play major

588
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: league baseball, you're still facing major league pitching, pitchers making decisions,

589
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: teams running scouting reports. I don't use it against somebody

590
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: when assessing their case for the Hall of Fame. Here

591
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: is a stat that I wrote down that I will

592
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 2: give you, and I have a piece coming out in

593
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: the coming days on fish On First, regarding my potential

594
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame ballot that you'll hear at the end

595
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: of the show. There are one hundred and thirteen players

596
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 2: in the Hall of Fame. Position players that have a

597
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: lower OPS for their respective careers than Todd Hilton does

598
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: on the road. Last I checked, the Rockies don't play

599
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: home games on the road, nor do any team play

600
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: their home games on the road. Todd Hilton on the road. Yes,

601
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: his home OPS is one thousand forty eight. Like okay,

602
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: like we get it. Coursefield, you know, you know there

603
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: is going to be a drop off if you're playing

604
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 2: your entire career there. Helton's road ops is still eight

605
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: fifty five. Here are some of the names that he

606
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: has a better road ops than. Some of these guys

607
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: are questionable Hall of famers, and some of these guys

608
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: got ninety plus percent and are in for very valid reasons.

609
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: George Sisler, Tony Gwynn, Billy Williams, Minnie Minoso, Gil Hodges,

610
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: Reggie Jackson, Carlastrensky, Derek Jeter, Enis Slaughter, Eddie Murray, Roberto Clemente,

611
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:01,479
Speaker 2: Yogi Berra, Ernie Banks, Dave Winfield, Ron Santo, Joe Gordon,

612
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: Rod carew, Ricky Henderson, Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Paul mollittor,

613
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 2: Barry Larkin, Roberto Alomar. There are multiple other guys, including

614
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 2: our own Andre Dawson, that for their careers minimum four

615
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: thousand plate appearances had a lower career OPS than Todd

616
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: Helton had ops on the road. Again, he didn't play

617
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: those games in Colorado, So why am I going to

618
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: use his home numbers against him when on the road

619
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: he still showed in a four thousand plate appearance sample,

620
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 2: which is about nine seasons, that he was a better

621
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: hitter than one hundred and thirteen Hall of Famers. It

622
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: may there may be holes in my argument, but I

623
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: posit that Todd Helton is a Hall of Famer. He

624
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: got seventy two percent last year, and he should walk

625
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: in this year. He should get eighty five ninety percent

626
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: and just get in. I mean, you can make an

627
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: argument that before Jeff Kent won his MVP, before Barry

628
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: Bonds went on a four year run in two thousand

629
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 2: and one to four, that Todd Helton was the best

630
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 2: player in the National League in two thousand and You know,

631
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 2: the way that we say Joe Mauer's MVP is maybe

632
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 2: one of the separators that merits his induction, we could

633
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 2: have said that for Helton. Revisionist history and what analytics

634
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 2: tend to do, sure like give him an MVP and

635
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: throw his ass in the Hall of Fame. That's fine.

636
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: Although Todd I think Todd Helton at his peak in

637
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: the early two thousands was one of the most bet

638
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: was one of the best and arguably most maybe underrated

639
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: power hitter overall hitter in baseball, because he's a career

640
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: three to sixteen hitter. So he didn't just do it

641
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 2: hitting home runs. You know, at Begs mentioning too, he

642
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: has the same number of career home runs as Joe Demaggio.

643
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: Not that that's going to be the thing that says

644
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: to voters, you know, Joe Demaggio Todd Helton, same playing field.

645
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 2: That's not to be said at all. Just so opsplus

646
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: would disagree by twenty two points. But Todd Helton on

647
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 2: the road was still an incredible hitter, as was Larry Walker,

648
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 2: whose rhodopis was eight sixty five. So what am I

649
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: missing here that just because he played his games at

650
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: course field, is there to say, you know, minus a

651
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: decline at the end of his career similar to what

652
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 2: Mauer had where he was more of just an average hitter.

653
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 2: What else is there to be said that suggests that

654
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 2: he is in a Hall of fame. I'll let you

655
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 2: counter that if you want to, just concur whatever you want.

656
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: Well, as you were talking, it really did come to

657
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: me that I don't even think the cors bias is

658
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: the biggest thing working against him. It is more so

659
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: about the contexts of his performance coming up in the

660
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 1: late nineties and playing having his premiers in the early

661
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: two thousands, putting up power numbers that would look pretty

662
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: impressive in any other era, but because he's playing in

663
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: the era that he was playing in that had a

664
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: combination of higher home run rates and other players that

665
00:35:54,080 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: had more obvious performance enhancing drug boosts helping them like,

666
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 1: he was overshadowed in his time during In some ways

667
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: he was underrated because people were discounting his numbers in

668
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: his environment. In other cases, his numbers just didn't pop

669
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: quite as much because there were players that had an

670
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: unfair advantage that were outshining him. He also even separate

671
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: from that Albert Poohols, who played his same position in

672
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: the National League during almost all the same years, he

673
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: was just overshadowed by having a better multiple better players

674
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: at his position and also in the National League at

675
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: the time where once he finally those guys finally got

676
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: out of the way in the late two thousands and

677
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: early twenty tens, he was in decline where he didn't

678
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: have a perfect career. If he had aged a little

679
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: bit more gracefully, he would be a no doubter. But

680
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: because later on he dealt with some injuries, his power

681
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: really fell off a cliff during that second half of

682
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: his career. Over his last cheeze, over his last nine seasons,

683
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: he never hit more than seventeen home runs in six

684
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: all the way through twenty twenty thirteen. He was even

685
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: when he was on the field just he was not

686
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: really a good player because he was a dh first

687
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: baseman that had all of a sudden lost that slugging

688
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: element to him. So he's somebody that I personally in

689
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: the past at least how many years has he been

690
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: on the ballot Now this is his sixth year. It

691
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 1: was once in those previous five I remember having him

692
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 1: off and I've steadily come around to it because yet

693
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: to me, that biggest thing is the contact the competition

694
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: around him that overshadowed him, that ultimately is out of

695
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: his control. I think of the things that he did

696
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 1: within his control was a Hall of Fame caliber career,

697
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: and that's what's most important.

698
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: You know, I think the character clause people may hold

699
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 2: the DUIs that he accrued over the course of his

700
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: career against him, but you know, it's an off field

701
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: transgression that it's unexcusable. But I don't think is enough

702
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: to say, hey, like this guy is not, you know,

703
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,479
Speaker 2: worthy of the Hall of Fame. And that maybe gets

704
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 2: me to another guy who has a Hall of Fame

705
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: caliber career and has an on field transgression that we

706
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: later learned about, and that's you know, Carlos Beltron. Carlos Beltron,

707
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: this is his second year on the ballot. I thought

708
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: he should have got in last year. I don't really

709
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: believe in the Roberto Alamar clause of like just because

710
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: you you know, you do something that keeps you out,

711
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: or you do something you know irreprehensible that you should

712
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: be barred from getting in your first year. I think

713
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: you're either a Hall of Famer or you're not. And

714
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: I honestly think Carlos Beltron is a Hall of Famer

715
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 2: because it's similar to Utley, but I would say maybe

716
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: a more well defined version of that where he lasted

717
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 2: as a better version of himself longer and then he

718
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 2: accrued a little bit more in the way accounting, because

719
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: that's a lot more and by the way it hits

720
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: home runs played. You know, good Centerveel defense for a

721
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 2: long time was an excellent based runner and that so

722
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 2: gets lost because the Carlos Beltron that maybe a lot

723
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 2: of Marlin fans remember was a met than a giant,

724
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 2: and then a cardinal and then a Yankee and a

725
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 2: ranger and you just kind of bounced around before we're

726
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 2: going back to the Astros and getting implicated in the

727
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 2: science stealing scandal. Though he was never specifically named, you

728
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: know that this is another guy that I think, you know,

729
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: belongs in the Hall of Fame as well. I just

730
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: think he did so many things well. He was just

731
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: very balanced as a player, and you know someone who

732
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 2: you know, the steroid guys aren't gonna get you know,

733
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 2: a lot of these steroid guys aren't getting in. But Beltron,

734
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 2: you know, that kind of clearly establishes a hierarchy of

735
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 2: like cheating. Do you you know, does you know what's

736
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 2: the worst planning a camera in center field to steal

737
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 2: signs or you know, putting in exogronous hormones in your

738
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 2: body to get at performative advantage. When you feel that

739
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 2: your scared skills are going to fall off and you

740
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 2: still feel the need to make money to support your family.

741
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 2: It either way, it selfless because it kind of goes

742
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 2: towards the overall goal of winning, maybe for your team

743
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: and for yourself. But yeah, Carls Belt runs career as

744
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: a whole to me is Hall of Fame worthy and

745
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 2: I'm wondering how you feel about that.

746
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: And no separator for him is the postseason stuff. And

747
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: there's very few players where that really moves the needle,

748
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 1: but with him one of the very best for somebody

749
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: that during the regular season eight thirty seven career ops

750
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: while playing a lot of center field while also being

751
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: one of the most efficient base dealers ever. Like regular

752
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: season alone, he has a strong case. But then in

753
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: the postseason, with a bunch of different teams a one thousand,

754
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: twenty one career ops, sixteen home runs in sixty five

755
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: games spans like a forty home run pace over a

756
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 1: full season against in the most important situations, he finally

757
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: has that World Series ring. Although he didn't really play

758
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: much of a direct impact on the field during that

759
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: World Series, ironically, but he was incredible in the postseason

760
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: other teams that made deep runs with the Mets, probably

761
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: most memorably with the Astros that one year. That's one

762
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: that I still remember very vividly. One more individual runs,

763
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: even though that was over twenty almost twenty years ago

764
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: at this point, back in two thousand and four, that

765
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: still has seared into my memory because of the way

766
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: that a player can very single handedly influence his team's fortunes.

767
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: Once you get that far and when you have that

768
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: much of a sample, that is so fantastic. I think

769
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: that Debt definitely moves the needle pretty significantly in one way.

770
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: For whatever negative effects that scandal has over him, there's

771
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 1: also a whole lot of accounts of people talking about

772
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: him being a really influential in a good way, an

773
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: influential teammate, being a bilingual player that was also just

774
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: very generous with his time and with his guidance. Not

775
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: surprised that he was on the verge of being hired

776
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: as a major league manager because he had those attributes

777
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: throughout his playing career, and I still suspect that eventually

778
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: he'll get back into that opportunity, just because he is

779
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: a pretty special player, somebody that for as talented as

780
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: he was was just as impressive. His understanding of the

781
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: game was also just made a difference and that impacted

782
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: wins and losses over a very long period of time

783
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: and a lot of different environments that he found himself

784
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: playing in.

785
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: The question is does the sign stealing scandal usurp the

786
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 2: character that was generally associated with him, And I guess

787
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 2: that remains to be seen. But you know, I'm hoping,

788
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 2: I'm holding out that he gets in, you know, because

789
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: I'm sure he will. I'm sure this is just going

790
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: to be like an Alamar esque situation where it's a

791
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 2: first year thing. I mean war comparisons to he is

792
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: in that seventy war category, which is just like a

793
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 2: lot of where we start to say like, oh yeah,

794
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: like this guy's a Hall of Famer. It's that role

795
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 2: and it's that Gary Carter on another former met territory

796
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 2: where you're starting to say like, yeah, this is very

797
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: well defined, like his career as a whole is enough

798
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: for me to say put him in the Hall of Fame.

799
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, well we should go to a player that

800
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: I know we disagree on, probably the one player on

801
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: here that we have the clearest difference of opinion on

802
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 1: mister Billy Wagner one of the best closers ever, anybody

803
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: who slice it, just an extraordinarily great reliever, but only

804
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: a reliever. Didn't start a single game during his entire

805
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: major league career never Ever, unlike Beltron, didn't really do

806
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: enough anything in the postseason that would bolster his case.

807
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 1: His case is pretty simple about dominance at a time

808
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: where if you look at the rest of this ballot,

809
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: there really isn't another pitcher that screams dominance, but Billy Wagner.

810
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: The stats that are pretty mind boggling when he did

811
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 1: pitch over nine hundred innings with mainly with National League teams,

812
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:00,720
Speaker 1: tell us about Billy Wagner.

813
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 2: So I so, you you know, we you know, you

814
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: preface it by saying we disagree, and I'm not and

815
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 2: I know I'm not going to disagree with that, but

816
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: I'm also not going to fully suggest that I'm I

817
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 2: don't have my reservations. Now, none of those reservations with

818
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: Billy Wagner are have anything to do with the nine

819
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 2: or so postseason innings that he pitched that were you know, less,

820
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 2: let's just say, less than stellar, Like he was not

821
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: good in the postseason, as was Trevor Hoffman. And I know,

822
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 2: you know, you're kind of against Trevor Hoffman being in

823
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:31,879
Speaker 2: the Hall of Fame.

824
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: He he was.

825
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: For better or words of accumulator with a stat that

826
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 2: we may be put too much stock in. But I

827
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 2: think Billy Wagner combined you know, pitching the you know,

828
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 2: the highest leverage inning, the ninth inning, with you know,

829
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 2: just you know, the most some of the most unhittable

830
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 2: stuff we'd ever seen, and maybe you know, you want

831
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: to talk about like a kind of just like out

832
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 2: of nowhere story. Billy Wagner was originally right handed as

833
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: a kid, broke his arm and taught himself to throw

834
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 2: left handed. Not only did he teach himself to throw

835
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 2: left handed, he became, other than Maria Rivera, arguably the

836
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: most dominant reliever per what his role was, for what

837
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 2: he was asked to do in big league history. So

838
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 2: the way I normally to find a Hall of Famer,

839
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 2: and you and I had a funny exchange about this

840
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: the other day. I always kind of say that, like

841
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 2: a Hall of Fame caliber season is something that eclipses

842
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: or flirts with six wins by wins of over replacement. Obviously,

843
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 2: as a reliever. The only way you're going to do

844
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: that is if you're pitching in the fifties and the

845
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: sixties and the seventies, where you're throwing three or four

846
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 2: innings of the game, having like a nineteen seventy four

847
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 2: Mike Marshall season, where you're going to throw two hundred

848
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 2: innings out of the bullpen and accrue that much volume

849
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 2: and put up a lot of war. You can't do

850
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 2: that as a reliever. And as is the case, Billy

851
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: Wagner is a sub thirty win player by wins of overplacement.

852
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: I only threw nine hundred and three innings, and maybe

853
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: that volume on its own isn't substantial enough to get

854
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 2: into a Hall of Fame. So I kind of came

855
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 2: up with my own qualifier for what I feel is

856
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 2: a Hall of Fame caliber season for reliever. Now I

857
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 2: think it could be revised, but I'll give you some

858
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 2: of this. So here's what I consider a Hall of

859
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 2: Fame qualified season for reliever. A season of at least

860
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: fifty innings pitched and an ERA below two ninety nine,

861
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 2: so essentially fifty innings what I would deem close to

862
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,919
Speaker 2: a full season eighty to ninety percent of a full

863
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: season and a sub three era. The pitcher with the most,

864
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 2: unsurprisingly is Man ever fifteen. Then you have Hoffman twelve.

865
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,720
Speaker 2: But then you have Wagner, Wilhelm, John Franco all eleven,

866
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 2: and Goose Gossage at ten. Goose Gossain's in the Hall

867
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 2: of Fame. Why Wilhelm is in the Hall of Fame,

868
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 2: Billy Wagner, You know, I think it compares favorite Bill

869
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: Wilhelm and Gossage pitched a more higher volume of innings,

870
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 2: so their wars are slightly higher. They're in the forty range.

871
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: Then I was like, all right, well, that maybe seems

872
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 2: a little bit too kind of like surface level for

873
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 2: mere run prevention over volume. So then I decided to say,

874
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 2: all right, let's do most seasons of fifty ins pitched

875
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: a sub three RA and ten kse for nine and

876
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 2: again this is what the understanding that strikeouts weren't always

877
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 2: at a premium in baseball history, and Billy Wagner, and

878
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: I give him credit for pre dates the era when

879
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 2: guys were consistently striking out twenty eight ish percent of

880
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: the time. Here are the most seasons in reliever history

881
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 2: of fifty innings sub three ra and ten or more

882
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:50,479
Speaker 2: strikeouts for nine. Billy Wagner has eleven, Kenley Jansen has eight.

883
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,439
Speaker 2: Craig Kimberl has seven or all this Chapman has I'm sorry,

884
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,959
Speaker 2: Kimberl has eight. Chapman has seven. Joe Nathan has six.

885
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: K Rod who is kind of comparable in that value

886
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 2: accrued innings pitched era per run prevention Parameter and Hoffman

887
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 2: have six. Now, I wanted to do a longer look,

888
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 2: and I know I'm getting to a point in a second,

889
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: relievers with at least seven hundred and fifty innings pitched

890
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: as a primary reliever and then a one to fifty

891
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 2: or better R plus so who prevented runs out of

892
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: the bullpen at fifty percent better than their respective league

893
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 2: average over the course of their career. The minimum of

894
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 2: seven hundred and fifty inks pitch Marion Rivera is one

895
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,240
Speaker 2: twelve hundred and eighty three innings pitch again the additional

896
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 2: volume of the six plus seasons of additional volume for

897
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 2: Mario and Rivera, and then being twenty percent better at

898
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 2: preventing runs in the American League with the DH than

899
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 2: Billy Wagner is the separator. Then there's Billy Wagner at

900
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 2: one point eighty seven. Then you have kimber one seventy one,

901
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 2: Jansen and pat Henke one fifty seven in about eight

902
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: hundred innings apiece. Then you have Joe Nathan, who had

903
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,439
Speaker 2: another compelling Hall of Film case was off the first

904
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 2: ballot one fifty one. That leads me to believe that

905
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 2: like Wagner may, while he may be closer to a

906
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: Kimberland a Jansen, still kind of like he is still

907
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 2: above them, and like the separator between Kimberland Janssen is

908
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 2: about the separator between Rivera and Wagner. And for what

909
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 2: I mean, for my money, I would still positive that

910
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: Billy Wagner is maybe the second best relief pitcher of

911
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,919
Speaker 2: all time. There's obviously one Marion Rivera, who doubled him

912
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 2: in terms of value, and then you have the postseason

913
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 2: that goes with it. It's just like, you know, kind

914
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 2: of have like everything under the sun that suggests like

915
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: he's the best relief picture of all time. He's the

916
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 2: most obvious Hall of Famer and the only unanimous guy

917
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: on a player ballot to get in. But I think

918
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 2: Billy Wagner, inning for inning, was one of the most

919
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 2: dominant pitchers in baseball history, regardless of role, And maybe

920
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: that's why I kind of pushed the war aside, and

921
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 2: I look at the mere prevention and the way he

922
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 2: went about preventing on It's not that he just prevented

923
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 2: runs better than anyone other than Marian Orver in baseball

924
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 2: history for a reliever, but he did it whilst striking

925
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 2: out people in an era when that wasn't common, and

926
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 2: I don't think maybe war accounts for that. So that's

927
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: why I likely give him that slight edge over some

928
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 2: of these other guys.

929
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, to me, it's just not enough pitching. It's not

930
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: enough actual pitches that add up to influencing the outcomes

931
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 1: of seasons or even of games. This is a player

932
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: comes in the vast majority of time with a multiple

933
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: run lead and they just have to get through that

934
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 1: ending while still holding that lead. It certainly has a

935
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 1: role on a team. It's just been so apparent over

936
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: now the last couple decades where these guys individually just

937
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: do not matter as much as everyday position players or

938
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: as regular starting pitchers because they're just not on the

939
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: fields very much. Even when he put them on in

940
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: high leverage situations a lot of the time. To me,

941
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: they're just not comparable. I think the president that the

942
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame community set decades ago by electing relievers,

943
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: that is what is still having the door open for

944
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: Billy Wagner. And he's somebody that I predict is going

945
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: to get in because of that precedence, because when you

946
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: compare him to other believers that are in the Hall

947
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 1: of Fame, he very clearly belongs in there because they're

948
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: already in there.

949
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 2: That's the appeal to nature, fallacy and love that or

950
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: hate that. You know, I understand that maybe that legit

951
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 2: believe that some of the guys in, you know, maybe

952
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 2: Bruce Shooters on a Hall of Fame or in your opinion,

953
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 2: or maybe Rolly Fingers or you know, and these aren't

954
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 2: assertions we're making, but maybe this is just like, you know,

955
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 2: there's guys who maybe don't have the most compelling cases

956
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 2: that are in, and a guy who has a similarly

957
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:05,479
Speaker 2: compelling case is enough, did enough or relative to those

958
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 2: guys that to be inducted, though you may not agree

959
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 2: with the decision to induct him.

960
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm not rooting against him. I'm not trying

961
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: to devalue how good he was at his job. If

962
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: you just follow baseball, you know that relievers don't get

963
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 1: paid the same way that starting pitchers do. The market,

964
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: the teams themselves have these guys in a certain bracket

965
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: of value. They're the ones that even when players have

966
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,439
Speaker 1: like a pretty long period of success in this role,

967
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: especially now in this day and age, since Billy Wagner retired,

968
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: like these guys are more expendable, and teams are not

969
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 1: as they don't cling to them the same way that

970
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: they used to, and they're not beholden to using these

971
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: players as closers deep into their careers. When they lose

972
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: just a little bit of effectiveness, then there's probably somebody else, occasionally,

973
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: somebody else who is straight up from the miners earning

974
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 1: the league minimum, because usually when you're coming up straight

975
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: to the majors in the first place, that's one of

976
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: your stuff is the nastiest. That generally is what plays

977
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 1: the best laden games. So Billy Wagner in many ways

978
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: was exceptional. His stuff aged extremely well, like he was

979
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 1: still very high end velocity deep deep deep into his career.

980
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: So I am very impressed by him. I enjoyed watching

981
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: him a lot. I just have I don't hold relievers

982
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: on the same plane as those other guys, and they

983
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: fall into those roles for a reason, and he made

984
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 1: the most of it. You can have a lot of

985
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: success and make a great living, and you can you

986
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: can impact winning to some extent. Yeah, but even the

987
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 1: guys that are really consistent here, that's yeah. I feel

988
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: like if we were redo it now, and I'm curious

989
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: to see exactly how voting changes in the coming decades

990
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 1: when it becomes just even harder for players who accumulate

991
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 1: saves over their career, because save itself is a very

992
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 1: flawed premise that you have these guys that only answer

993
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 1: during save opportunities. That principle was dying pretty quickly with

994
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: a lot of teams, and for a good reason, because

995
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 1: it's a I think under further scrutiny, they realize that

996
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 1: there's not a huge difference between the very best and

997
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 1: the pretty good in this category. That's a very minor

998
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: difference in the actual player ability to handle these situations.

999
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's many different ways to evaluate relievers, and I

1000
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 2: think maybe one thing that I credit Wagner with is

1001
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 2: because given there's so much turnover with relievers, and it's

1002
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 2: very seldom that we see franchise relievers the way we

1003
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 2: were kind of seeing with Kiberl and Jansen for a

1004
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 2: while in Atlanta and Los Angeles get despite that kind

1005
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 2: of like you know, inconsistency that tends to accompany performance

1006
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 2: in those roles. To be able to do it at

1007
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 2: the level he did in minus one minor blip season,

1008
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 2: I believe it wasn't like two and three. It's yeah,

1009
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 2: I mean maybe that's what I kind of give him

1010
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 2: additional you know, you know, points for work. But I've

1011
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,760
Speaker 2: also wanted to just clarify that, you know, if Wagner

1012
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 2: doesn't get in, and I suspect he will, because I

1013
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 2: believe he touched the sixty sixty eight was around like

1014
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 2: sixty eight percent last year, even if he didn't get in,

1015
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 2: though he would come so painstakingly close, I would understand

1016
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 2: it from you know, a volume perspective if he's not,

1017
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 2: and I'd be okay with it. You know, I wouldn't

1018
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 2: lose a lot of sleep. You know. He's one of

1019
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 2: those guys that I would maybe but grudgingly vote for

1020
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 2: despite the numbers that I just listed, but you know,

1021
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:44,959
Speaker 2: it still says something that you can kind of force

1022
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 2: me to do a deep dive like that. You know,

1023
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 2: you have to be a pretty amazing player for me

1024
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 2: to kind of sit down there and do a bunch

1025
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 2: of stat head queries to kind of assess where you

1026
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,879
Speaker 2: sit in the pantheon of great pictures all the time,

1027
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 2: or just players in general.

1028
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: One other player needed to be as certain that we

1029
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 1: spent some quality time on is the one real Marlin

1030
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: on here. Mark Burley just one season, Hosey Rais just

1031
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,800
Speaker 1: one season. Gary Sheffield parts of six seasons with the Marlins,

1032
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: still one of the more extraordinary players they've ever had.

1033
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 1: He went on to have a lot of success with

1034
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: a lot of different teams after that. This is his

1035
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 1: tenth and final year on the ballot. This is where

1036
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: this is the last chance that the writers have to

1037
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: determine his fate. One might say that a reason why

1038
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: they have not approved him already is because he did

1039
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: not have a particularly good relationship with the writers interpersonally

1040
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 1: and perhaps subsconsciously. Some people are holding that against him.

1041
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: There have been ped suspicions around him. There have been,

1042
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: as he explained in detail to Bob Nightingale earlier this

1043
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 1: month from people that haven't read that he very specifically

1044
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: laid out the circumstances by which he got steroids in

1045
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 1: to his system unknowingly when recovering from a knee issue

1046
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,720
Speaker 1: during the offseason during one of his career one portion

1047
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 1: of the middle of his career, really the latter half

1048
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: of it. If you are to believe that the pds

1049
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: did not influence his performance in any way, then he

1050
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: is one of the more consistent hitters of his entire era.

1051
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: Throughout the nineties and the early two thousands. He is

1052
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 1: somebody who's even beyond his production. His personality and his

1053
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:36,439
Speaker 1: just his mannerisms at the plate are iconic as much

1054
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 1: as any other individual hitter as well. And if you

1055
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: just add up the overall hitting numbers, over five hundred

1056
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: home runs, really great combination of plate discipline to go

1057
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: along with that power and the consistency that I mentioned

1058
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: with a bunch of different teams almost a lot to

1059
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: go thirty homers ninety plus RBIs every single year for

1060
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: fifteen sixteen years. In the middle there he would have

1061
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: been in already, but as of last year he got

1062
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: barely over half of the votes and as of this recording,

1063
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 1: he is teetering right around that seventy five percent threshold.

1064
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: But what I want you to tell me, Lewis is

1065
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: how bad was his defense? Do you think his his

1066
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: awful defense is historically bad defense? Is that the reason why?

1067
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 1: Perhaps that's gonna draw him down just enough so that

1068
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: he might have to be relegated to a special committee

1069
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 1: to get in in future?

1070
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean being named in the Meteal report and

1071
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 2: then maybe the Barry Bonds ties with how with where

1072
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 2: he received the steroids, and I believe it was a

1073
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 2: cream that he said, a topical cream that he applied

1074
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 2: on his knee when recovering herman injury. Is either in

1075
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 2: two thousand and three or four when he was named

1076
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 2: in the Metro report. You know, Gary Sheffield, I think

1077
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 2: one thing that may hurt him be on his defense

1078
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 2: just being you know bad. I mean, you know, he

1079
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 2: went from a middle infielder at the outset of his

1080
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 2: career too, being at corner outfielder and somebody who generally

1081
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 2: raided out really poorly. I think only other than Derek Jeter,

1082
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 2: Gary Sheffield cost his team more runs on defense all

1083
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 2: time by fielding runs it was like one hundred and

1084
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 2: ninety five runs cast to his teams by way of defense.

1085
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 2: So I mean, like it's pretty evident that he was

1086
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 2: a liability. Now that being said, Frank Thomas is in

1087
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 2: the Hall of Fame and he put up more value,

1088
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 2: but that's also because he was an incredible hitter, and

1089
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 2: that actually got me to the next point in that, like,

1090
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 2: I think Sheffield despite offering less value than Frank Thomas defensively,

1091
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 2: despite the fact that Frank Thomas was a DH four,

1092
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 2: you know, the last half of his career. There's thirty

1093
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 2: nine players in baseball history with eighty offensive wins of

1094
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 2: bub replacement, and Gary Sheffield is right there. He's literally

1095
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 2: he has eighty point seven offensive war Rod Carew has

1096
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 2: eighty one, Frank Thomas has eighty point four. Sam Crawford

1097
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 2: has eighty point four. The defense was so bad though

1098
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 2: that it kind of detracts from it. Many Ramire is

1099
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 2: eighty one point eight. Another guy who, if you know,

1100
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 2: not even just suspicion, like multiple failed tests and evident

1101
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 2: that he's not a Hall of Fame. Now, maybe Sheffield,

1102
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 2: who as you noted, was a more balanced hitter than

1103
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 2: a lot of some of these guys on the ballot. Now,

1104
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:26,479
Speaker 2: you know, more walks than strikeouts a career one forty

1105
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 2: ops plus. Another thing that may hurt him though, and

1106
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 2: it doesn't get talked about enough, is that he was

1107
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 2: as fluid as he was as a I mean as

1108
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 2: versus his skill set was was he too fluid with

1109
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 2: switching teams? And that's not always in his control? But

1110
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 2: you know he was a Padre, a Brewer, a Marlin,

1111
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 2: a Dodger, a Met, a Yankee, a Tiger, a Brave.

1112
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 2: You know, he played for what eight teams? And sure

1113
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 2: we may most identify him with the Marlins because he

1114
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 2: played parts of six seasons there, won a World Series, there,

1115
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 2: won a batting title. But you're gonna tell me that

1116
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 2: like the two years he had in Atlanta weren't tremendous offensively,

1117
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 2: He wasn't great as a Dodger. And even in his

1118
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 2: last year as a Met, when he was like forty,

1119
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 2: he still had a three seventy two on base percentage.

1120
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 2: Like the dude pretty much just was a consistently above

1121
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 2: average offensive player. And I mean, look at Jordon Alvarez.

1122
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 2: Jordon Alvarez, now, similar kind of skill set, great play discipline,

1123
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 2: great power, but he's he's a DH primarily with like

1124
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 2: cameos and left field. We're not gonna look at Jordon

1125
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 2: Alvarez in fifteen years, should he have a Hall of

1126
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 2: Fame career and say, you know what, like he like

1127
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 2: he was a great defensive outfielder. We're mostly gonna remember

1128
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 2: him for his bat. And I think Gary Sheffield maybe

1129
01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:59,919
Speaker 2: fits that mold where he was just such a career

1130
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,919
Speaker 2: hitter although his defense was so bad. I don't think

1131
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 2: in my opinion, and I don't think it's a local

1132
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 2: Marlins bias, giving I grew up in the area. I

1133
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,479
Speaker 2: don't think it's enough to dissuade me from saying he's

1134
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 2: not on a Hall of him. I remember when we

1135
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 2: were formerly fish Strivers, I wrote like multiple Hall of

1136
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 2: Fame defense pieces for Sheffield on the premise that I

1137
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 2: think he was such an incredible hitter underrated base runner too,

1138
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 2: that I thought that like he still should like be

1139
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 2: seriously considered. He never failed to tests. He never I

1140
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 2: don't believe he ever struck out one hundred times in

1141
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 2: a season, if I'm not mistaken, Like Adrian Belcher never

1142
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 2: did that either walked a ton, you know, he was

1143
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 2: nearly a three hundred and four hundred, five hundred guy.

1144
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 2: He just missed batting every by eight points on base

1145
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 2: by seven. But as a hitter, what you can't say

1146
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 2: about his defense, you also can't say it as offense,

1147
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 2: like it was just very you know, very full, very

1148
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 2: full profile offensive that I think, you know, given what

1149
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 2: he did at the plate, the batwiggle, you know, maybe

1150
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 2: it's not as imitated as Ken Griffy Junior's you know,

1151
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 2: backwards hat or just you know, the cleats that people

1152
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 2: wear and just like so many athletes outside of baseball

1153
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 2: that model their game after Griffy, you know, I think

1154
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 2: Sheffield has enough iconography in conjunction with offensive prowess that

1155
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 2: to me he's Hall of Famer. Albeit like Todd Helton,

1156
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 2: I don't think he's a perfect one.

1157
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 1: Right. What I'll say about his defense and how much

1158
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 1: value that brought down with him overall, he did not.

1159
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 1: It was not a main DH. DH was not his

1160
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:44,920
Speaker 1: primary position until his age thirty eight season. It's not

1161
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 1: his when we just focus on what these players can control.

1162
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 1: It's not his fault that he played the vast majority

1163
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 1: of his career with National League teams. That National League

1164
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 1: teams repeatedly wanted to acquire him, feeling that all the

1165
01:03:57,280 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 1: positive that he brought with his bat more than offset

1166
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 1: his defense. Those are those teams making those conscious decisions

1167
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 1: and generally coming off pretty satisfied with those decisions to

1168
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 1: bring him in the first place. Even when he went

1169
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 1: to the American League for the first time with the Yankees,

1170
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 1: that team had so many other older DH types that

1171
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 1: he was still primarily used as an outfielder over there.

1172
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: He's put in positions to accrue negative value defensively, but

1173
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 1: he was put in there by teams that often when

1174
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 1: he was on those teams, they were successful.

1175
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 2: They were raised the Marlins, the Padres, the Tigers. Like

1176
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 2: you know, one player doesn't make the difference in baseball.

1177
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 2: And but you make an incredible point in saying that

1178
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:41,440
Speaker 2: he was a key clog in very successful teams. And

1179
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 2: I think that should merit some some maybe some prep

1180
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 2: some love from Hall of Fame voters.

1181
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've seen it. That's just from you. I've

1182
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: seen from other people prefer to him as one of

1183
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: the worst defenders ever. And I don't really believe that

1184
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 1: to be true. I believe that he contributed accrue to

1185
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 1: some of the worst defensive value ever. But that's because

1186
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 1: the team has put him in those positions and they

1187
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: were willing to do that, and however, they were evaluating

1188
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 1: defense at the time, they felt that it was worthy decision. Yeah,

1189
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 1: he can't control exactly where in the lineup, what position

1190
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 1: he's assigned to, and I'm sure looking at it under

1191
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 1: fresh perspective, in this day and age, he would have

1192
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 1: dated a whole lot more. He would have been most mormantly.

1193
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 1: He would have been in leagues that used the universal DH,

1194
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 1: so the option to DH him would have been available

1195
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 1: in a way that it actually wasn't at this during

1196
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 1: the reality of his career. So I still feel very

1197
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 1: strongly about him getting in. I don't think he will.

1198
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: I am pessimistic about the private ballots and what those

1199
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 1: will say. As I mentioned on the public ballots, he's

1200
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 1: right there, right along the seventy five percent thresholds. I

1201
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 1: feel like that will come down for all the said

1202
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 1: and done, I'm about to set it up so that

1203
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: we can reveal our own ballots. Other players that were

1204
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: on here are way over an hour, so we will

1205
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 1: touch on them if we vote for them. Other players

1206
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 1: such as a Rod one of the very best players

1207
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 1: ever if you take out the ped issues. Manny Ramirez

1208
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: one of the very best right handed hitters ever, even

1209
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 1: better than Sheffield if you take away the ped issues.

1210
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 1: But that's a big if. There was also who else

1211
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 1: on there did I want to mention from those returning players?

1212
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 1: Andrew Jones, of course, we danced around him a little bit.

1213
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: Incredible defender, one of the better players in baseball throughout

1214
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 1: his twenties, but just didn't age very gracefully. And Mark Burley.

1215
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:32,959
Speaker 1: We touched on Francisco Rodriguez, Andy Pettitt, and Bobby bray

1216
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 1: You Bobby bray You who also had very some elements

1217
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 1: of other players that we discussed for he was a

1218
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 1: little underrated at his time, but contributed in a variety

1219
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 1: of different ways and had longevity on his side, had

1220
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: some just overall value that might surprise people exactly how

1221
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 1: much value he crewed during his career. Without further ado,

1222
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 1: we want to fill in our ballots for the twenty

1223
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 1: twenty four Haul Fame class under BBWAA like conditions where

1224
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,240
Speaker 1: we will vote for no more than ten players, even

1225
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 1: though there are twenty six on here that are eligible.

1226
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:16,560
Speaker 1: Will be maximum of ten and who just who we

1227
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 1: think if we were in this position, we would support

1228
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 1: on this ballot one by one, lewis I have I

1229
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: have not reviewed your ballot ahead of time. I have

1230
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 1: a general idea, where are you lean on some of

1231
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: these guys? Who would you put on your Hall of

1232
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 1: Fame ballot for the class of twenty twenty four.

1233
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 2: I didn't vote for a full ten honorable mentions, Mark Burley,

1234
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 2: Andy Pettit. I kind of compared them. I did like

1235
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 2: a deep dive that I maybe shouldn't have sent so much,

1236
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 2: spent so much time one. I did like some revisionist

1237
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:49,520
Speaker 2: history and compared them to somebody by the name of

1238
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 2: a picture by the name of Ted Lyons, who has

1239
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 2: one of the highest ras of anybody in the Hall

1240
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 2: of Fame. I believe the ras in your forty seven.

1241
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 2: But he prevented runs at about eighteen percent better than

1242
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 2: league average, similar to the boy Burley did and Petit did,

1243
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 2: though he threw about seven hundred or so more innings,

1244
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 2: but on a war per inning basis, they accrued war

1245
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 2: at a very similar pace. So maybe you know, we

1246
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 2: talked about the appeal to the nature fallacy of this

1247
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 2: guy's in, so he should be in. Maybe you can

1248
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 2: make that case for Burley and Pettit on the premise

1249
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 2: of say like a Jack Morris. But the nine guys

1250
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:29,520
Speaker 2: I voted for, I repeat again A bray You, Wagner, Utley, Sheffield,

1251
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 2: Maer Jones, Helton, Beltra, and Beltra.

1252
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, there we go. Nine out of ten for lewis

1253
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:41,720
Speaker 1: a lot of overlap between you and I, as we'll

1254
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 1: see on here. And you know, we dove into most

1255
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:50,240
Speaker 1: of these guys already, h with the one exception of

1256
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, Bray You and Andrew Jones. Pray you with

1257
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 1: somebody I voted for in the past, and for who

1258
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:00,720
Speaker 1: I'm voting with presently. I already filled my out right here.

1259
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 1: I have a full ballot of ten guys. Also have

1260
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:07,439
Speaker 1: Carlos Beltron. I also have Adrian Beltra. I also have

1261
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:11,760
Speaker 1: Todd Helton. I also have Joe Mauer, Andrew Jones, just

1262
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:16,599
Speaker 1: like you, Gary Sheffield, Chase Utley. Where we differ. I

1263
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:19,400
Speaker 1: was down to really eleven guys for ten spots, and

1264
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:22,240
Speaker 1: I considered dropping it down to nine. But the ones

1265
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:25,760
Speaker 1: that I added in at the very end Alex Rodriguez,

1266
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 1: Manny Ramirez, and Andy Pettitt. With Pettit, I've initially my

1267
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 1: thought was him and Burley are have so much in

1268
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 1: common that should be either both of them or neither

1269
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 1: of them, and I was leaning towards neither. But then

1270
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: it is important to me that I think we probably

1271
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 1: should have mentioned this earlier about how underrepresented pitchers are

1272
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:52,439
Speaker 1: in general, like on this ballot and have been in

1273
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 1: recent years on this ballot and especially starting pitchers. There

1274
01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:00,200
Speaker 1: are some relievers that have gone pretty strong support from

1275
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 1: the majority of people, such as Wagner and some even

1276
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:08,280
Speaker 1: considering k Rod Trevor Trevor Hoffman getting in and not

1277
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:11,880
Speaker 1: too distant past, but starting pitchers, I don't want to

1278
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 1: undervalue the few that really stick around for a while,

1279
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:18,759
Speaker 1: that are very consistent and then also have really great peaks.

1280
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 1: With Pettitt, I felt that his peak were it's just

1281
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,760
Speaker 1: high enough. He really had two peak seasons that were

1282
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:26,800
Speaker 1: very far apart from each other, one of them very

1283
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 1: early on with the Yankees, I believe he finished he

1284
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 1: came relatively close to winning a cy Young back then

1285
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 1: in ninety six, and then also towards the end of

1286
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 1: his career with the Astros, he had that really shocking

1287
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 1: resurgence in two thousand and five. So he was runner

1288
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:44,760
Speaker 1: up for the cy Young in two thousand and six

1289
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 1: with the Yankee, nineteen ninety six with the Yankees, and

1290
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:49,759
Speaker 1: then in two thousand and five with the Astros. Finished

1291
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 1: fifth in sy Young that year with a two three

1292
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 1: nine ERA. When you really back up the era is

1293
01:10:56,920 --> 01:10:59,599
Speaker 1: on sightly to have a three eight five, but it's

1294
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 1: in that error that I pitched in it's a one

1295
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 1: seventeen ERA plus when you put that into perspective the

1296
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 1: very consistent two hundred ending seasons that he had. I

1297
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:14,519
Speaker 1: believe he is still the all time postseason leader in wins,

1298
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:17,800
Speaker 1: which is not something that I really I don't add

1299
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 1: that stat to his ledger, and I do admit that

1300
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 1: a lot of his postseason value was he was able

1301
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 1: to accumulate that for the excellence due to the excellence

1302
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 1: of his teammates surrounding him with those Yankees all those years.

1303
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 1: But for the most part, he did take advantage of

1304
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,040
Speaker 1: those opportunities. He was a little bit better in the

1305
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 1: postseason than he even was during the regular season. It's

1306
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:45,360
Speaker 1: even deep into those playoff runs consistently, just all the

1307
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,519
Speaker 1: extra volume that he picked up during the postseason and

1308
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 1: to performing still pretty well in those what are essentially

1309
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:56,280
Speaker 1: high leverage situations almost every single start we make in

1310
01:11:56,320 --> 01:12:00,240
Speaker 1: the playoffs. I think there's enough bonus value there that

1311
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:04,559
Speaker 1: to me pushes him in. For me, so it is

1312
01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:08,439
Speaker 1: he's a real borderline guy, and I think it's pretty

1313
01:12:08,439 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 1: clear he's not going to get into the Hall of

1314
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,559
Speaker 1: Fame in twenty twenty four, and I'm kind of doubtful

1315
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:16,439
Speaker 1: that he gets in on the Writer's ballot at all

1316
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,920
Speaker 1: during his ten years of eligibility. I do feel that

1317
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 1: it's important not to totally lose the starting pictures of

1318
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 1: this era, and unfortunately we have, so his vote for

1319
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 1: him is also like to make sure that Johann Santana's

1320
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 1: tenure on the ballot didn't go to waste some of

1321
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,000
Speaker 1: the other Felix Hernandez same way, like, there are other

1322
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 1: pictures that had even better peaks that unfortunately aren't going

1323
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:48,639
Speaker 1: to get into the Hall where in this era where

1324
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 1: these pictures just don't last very long, and even those

1325
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:54,400
Speaker 1: that shine so brightly, they're not going to be taken

1326
01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:57,280
Speaker 1: seriously as Hall of Fame candidates when we use the

1327
01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:01,560
Speaker 1: standards of the past. But I think it really distorts

1328
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 1: the way that the game was played if we have

1329
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:07,040
Speaker 1: so few pitchers to actually get in from these years.

1330
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:09,879
Speaker 1: So that's why I felt like, even though all things considered,

1331
01:13:10,439 --> 01:13:14,280
Speaker 1: not the most exciting pick, I think he is of

1332
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:17,439
Speaker 1: the available starting pitching options that we have. He is

1333
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 1: the best of the bunch. With a Rod and with Manny,

1334
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:22,920
Speaker 1: we can have a long conversation about how exactly to

1335
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 1: treat their ped transgressions. To me, I'm just fortunate. I'm

1336
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 1: satisfied with where we've gotten in Major League Baseball when

1337
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 1: it comes to PDS, where guys that now are repeat offenders,

1338
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 1: their suspensions are so substantial that the penalties are so

1339
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:46,240
Speaker 1: significant for actually testing positive and getting caught that it

1340
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:49,559
Speaker 1: does pretty materially impact the way that guys put together

1341
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 1: their careers. It keeps them off the field for long enough.

1342
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 1: And I think it's still it's a stronger deterrence than

1343
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:59,439
Speaker 1: it used to be. The reality was we were coming

1344
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:02,040
Speaker 1: from a time I'm in the not too distant past.

1345
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:04,840
Speaker 1: For the majority of a Rod's career, in Manny's career,

1346
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 1: there weren't suspensions for guys even when they did test positive.

1347
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:10,799
Speaker 1: Then it took a few more years for those punishments

1348
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,920
Speaker 1: to have some real teeth to them, and because of that,

1349
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:17,120
Speaker 1: they were on the field and they were so extraordinary

1350
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:21,480
Speaker 1: when they were playing. That's me. I think that overrides

1351
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:26,200
Speaker 1: any character concerns, and there are character concerns there that

1352
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:29,200
Speaker 1: I just don't feel are totally disqualifying for a Baseball

1353
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:29,719
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame.

1354
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think my biggest issue with a rot I

1355
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,720
Speaker 2: mean a Ron obviously, like there's no denying that I

1356
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:42,280
Speaker 2: think he is like one of the twenty five, maybe

1357
01:14:42,360 --> 01:14:47,799
Speaker 2: even ten greatest players ever. But I maybe there's something

1358
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:51,640
Speaker 2: with not only failing multiple tests but lying about it

1359
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:55,040
Speaker 2: multiple times, and it doesn't get brought up enough. But

1360
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 2: there was a time when he tried to sue the

1361
01:14:57,560 --> 01:15:02,320
Speaker 2: Yankees into twenty FI team, Like he like was literally

1362
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 2: trying to sue the Yankees when this scandal broke and

1363
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:08,640
Speaker 2: he right ahead of him getting a two hundred and

1364
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:11,439
Speaker 2: eleven game suspension. You know, that is the team that

1365
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:14,000
Speaker 2: paid you two hundred and seventy five million dollars when

1366
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:16,960
Speaker 2: they maybe shouldn't have after you opted out after your

1367
01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 2: third MVP season in two thousand and seven. But again,

1368
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:25,080
Speaker 2: that's the separator between with a rod is clearly like

1369
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 2: he cheated, But then there's the stories that have been

1370
01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 2: substantiated by more than one person that go back to

1371
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:36,720
Speaker 2: him using peds in high school. And sure, like we

1372
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 2: can kind of sit and pontificate on like how long

1373
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 2: has he been doing this, how much of his talent

1374
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,920
Speaker 2: is actually aided by the pedes. I don't know if

1375
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:48,519
Speaker 2: you or I are really the ones that can quantify that.

1376
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 2: I just think we have to assess that evidence, use

1377
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:53,960
Speaker 2: our own moral high grounds that we have established in

1378
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:56,320
Speaker 2: our own minds, and then make the judgment of whether

1379
01:15:56,400 --> 01:15:58,680
Speaker 2: or not we think they are Hall of famers on

1380
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 2: the merits of what they've done on and off the field.

1381
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:05,479
Speaker 2: What I maybe vote for Alex Rodriguez in the future, sure,

1382
01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:08,879
Speaker 2: but I think it's like a It's similar to Wagner,

1383
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:11,559
Speaker 2: albeit there's a lot more volume there, and I mean

1384
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:15,559
Speaker 2: a lot more volume given the different position played and

1385
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 2: you know, value a crew. It's a begrudget vote. And

1386
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 2: that's just because I think, like you know, like I

1387
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:24,240
Speaker 2: love Barry Bonds. I think Barry Bonds is the greatest

1388
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:26,439
Speaker 2: player I ever saw, and maybe the greatest player of

1389
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 2: all time. But I won't ignore the fact that he

1390
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:31,200
Speaker 2: was terrible with the media, and there were maybe things

1391
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 2: that he did that, you know, and that he said

1392
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:36,639
Speaker 2: he regrets that I kind of not hold against him,

1393
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:39,960
Speaker 2: but I see as like flaws and an otherwise sterling

1394
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:43,600
Speaker 2: kind of career and service to the game, and a

1395
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:46,559
Speaker 2: Rod was a gift to baseball in many ways, good

1396
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:50,599
Speaker 2: and bad and maybe just right now, and maybe I'm

1397
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:53,479
Speaker 2: being kind of sour in that, like I'm not ready

1398
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 2: to give my allegiance to him being a Hall of

1399
01:16:57,160 --> 01:17:00,240
Speaker 2: Famer many or miras, I love many, I mean I

1400
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 2: love Minnaires. As a player, I thought he was an

1401
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 2: excellent player, like very gifted, all around complete player. Very

1402
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:11,479
Speaker 2: but the word is very transparent in his honesty and

1403
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 2: the way he kind of went about things, but also

1404
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:15,519
Speaker 2: kind of transaggressive and a lot of the things that

1405
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:18,080
Speaker 2: he did that rub people the wrong way, whether it's

1406
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 2: like high finding fans after you rob a home run,

1407
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 2: or you know, the multiple PD suspensions and not even

1408
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 2: serving the second one you just flat out retire and

1409
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:29,760
Speaker 2: then you go to play baseball elsewhere. There's that, and

1410
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:34,720
Speaker 2: there's the you know, there's several things that maybe hold

1411
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:37,360
Speaker 2: me against Manny, and I put him in that same

1412
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:41,280
Speaker 2: category as Sheffield. But maybe the separator is the failed test.

1413
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:45,800
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, despite being very similar offensively to

1414
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:48,559
Speaker 2: a Gary Sheffield, the fact that you had that we

1415
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:53,360
Speaker 2: have evidence showing that you failed multiple PEED tests. Maybe

1416
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:55,840
Speaker 2: again that's just enough for me to say, like, I

1417
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:59,640
Speaker 2: don't know how much you know beyond your talents to

1418
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:03,040
Speaker 2: try us the numbers that are in the record books

1419
01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:06,880
Speaker 2: right now by way of what you did on and

1420
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:09,719
Speaker 2: off the field. And again that's probably where I'm stuck.

1421
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:16,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have gone with some of these guys. I've

1422
01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 1: gone back and forth through their years of eligibility how

1423
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 1: I feel about them. And the reality is, for the

1424
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:25,200
Speaker 1: people actually voting, there are sometimes some tactical choices to

1425
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:30,599
Speaker 1: make to ensure that certain worthy candidates receive enough of

1426
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:32,800
Speaker 1: that vote over five percent to stay on the ballot

1427
01:18:32,800 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 1: in future years. There are all those other considerations going

1428
01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:41,280
Speaker 1: along here, But this is all things considered, This is

1429
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 1: a pretty media ballot to consider. Almost half of these

1430
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:47,160
Speaker 1: guys have to meet I think pretty compelling cases. And

1431
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:49,360
Speaker 1: I think you could certainly argue that people that I

1432
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:53,360
Speaker 1: didn't vote for also have very compelling cases in there.

1433
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 1: I think one way or another, we're going to see

1434
01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:59,240
Speaker 1: multiple new Hall of Famers joining Jim Leeland in that class.

1435
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:01,680
Speaker 1: I think that's what's most important, is to have some

1436
01:19:01,720 --> 01:19:04,560
Speaker 1: of these guys get recognized for their awesome careers. The

1437
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:06,320
Speaker 1: event is not quite the same when you don't have

1438
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: any active players going in there. So at least one

1439
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:13,400
Speaker 1: Marlins connection going in next summer with Jim Leyland's fingers

1440
01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:16,000
Speaker 1: crossed with Sheffield, although I'm feeling skeptical about it, and

1441
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:17,360
Speaker 1: as we talked about on the top of the show,

1442
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:21,679
Speaker 1: Adrian Beltray seems like a lock. Ted Todd Helton, all

1443
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:24,240
Speaker 1: things point to him getting just enough to get in

1444
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:26,080
Speaker 1: and then a bunch of these other players. We'll just

1445
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:27,960
Speaker 1: have to wait and see to find out. This was

1446
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:31,160
Speaker 1: our twenty twenty four Class of twenty four Hall of

1447
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:35,080
Speaker 1: Fame balance special on here. Thank god it was only

1448
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:37,280
Speaker 1: the two of us doing it, because it still was

1449
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 1: exceptionally long, with Lewis caring most of the show. As

1450
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:43,000
Speaker 1: you can tell, he puts a whole lot of effort

1451
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:46,880
Speaker 1: into analyzing these guys career in an objective and balanced way,

1452
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:50,559
Speaker 1: so follow him if you want even more insights into

1453
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:54,479
Speaker 1: the way that he analyzes this stuff and the info

1454
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:56,320
Speaker 1: that he shares throughout the year, not just during the

1455
01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame season, but it feels like every couple

1456
01:19:58,439 --> 01:20:01,639
Speaker 1: weeks in our fish On First I get weird Hall

1457
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:05,240
Speaker 1: of Fame queries and other comments from you about that,

1458
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:10,720
Speaker 1: so I appreciate that. Hope everybody enjoyed the show. Back

1459
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:13,519
Speaker 1: to our usual Marlin's content when the calendar flips, but

1460
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:16,080
Speaker 1: I think this will be our final podcast episode on

1461
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:18,479
Speaker 1: the channel in twenty twenty three, so thanks everybody for

1462
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:21,679
Speaker 1: following along during that period. Once again, hoping you guys

1463
01:20:22,200 --> 01:20:26,439
Speaker 1: like and subscribe, rate, and review wherever applicable to show

1464
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:30,040
Speaker 1: us some love and help us spread our audience even

1465
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:33,000
Speaker 1: more going into this brand new year. Right here, let

1466
01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:35,080
Speaker 1: us know who you'd have on your twenty twenty four

1467
01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:38,600
Speaker 1: ballot as well. Interested to see all the opinions and

1468
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:40,439
Speaker 1: let us know if we suade you one way or

1469
01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:42,519
Speaker 1: another on any particular players. I think that's the most

1470
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 1: important thing of getting this out right now, because the

1471
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:48,160
Speaker 1: end of December is that deadline for the actual writers

1472
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:51,320
Speaker 1: to submit their ballots. This was our last opportunity to

1473
01:20:51,640 --> 01:20:55,559
Speaker 1: get our messaging out there before Yeah, the big reveal,

1474
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:57,719
Speaker 1: so coming up in late January, that's when we find

1475
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:02,560
Speaker 1: out for sure all the voting results that are from

1476
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:05,639
Speaker 1: this class of twenty twenty four and the elmigible players

1477
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:09,080
Speaker 1: there with Lewis Addis Elos husband here from Fish on

1478
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:12,920
Speaker 1: First here on the official show. Thanks guys for tuning

1479
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:16,519
Speaker 1: into this one, and I'm a happy New Year, so

1480
01:21:16,880 --> 01:21:28,400
Speaker 1: talk to you guys again on the other side. Go Fish,