1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Live from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg Sound on 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: the United Sis can never default on this legal obligage 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: to do so with have catastrophic economic counterpoints. We've been 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: way too over the line on foreign market. People wanted 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: greats job. Floomberg Sound on politics, policy and perspective from 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: DC's top name for sad under Palace. Leadership has basically 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: shown the banks to test in advance. Mobilizing the busess 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: community is a really good thing to do, YEA Schloomberg 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: sound on with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. There are 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: reports of unrealized gains on Capitol Hill in the hunts 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: foreign agreements. Senator Joe Manson himself predicting a vote on 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: infrastructure tomorrow, while Speaker of Nancy Pelosi says Democrats have 13 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: reached a decision point the drama, even as big questions 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: remain over how to hey for it all. In this hour, 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: we'll take a deep dive with Congresswoman Susan del Bene, 16 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: a moderate Democrat from Washington State who met with President 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: Biden and one of the big family meetings last week. 18 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: And we'll also be joined by Rover Norquish, the President 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: of Americans for tax reform in just a moment. Our 20 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: panel today is a classic Bloomberg Politics contributors Genie Chanzano 21 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,559 Speaker 1: and Rick Davis are with us to help make sense 22 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: of everything we know. This hour. Back here in the bubble, 23 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: we are hearing once again the Democrats are nearing an 24 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: agreement on the President's spending plan, which would of course 25 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: on lack of vote on infrastructure. And I know it 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: feels like we've been here before, but Senator Joe Manchin 27 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: got things going this morning. You probably heard about it, 28 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: you might have watched it. Sat down for a very 29 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: newsy conversation, little breakfast with David Rubinstein, co found with 30 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: the Carlisle Group and host, of course of peer to 31 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: peer here on Bloomberg. Listen to Senator Mansion, I sure, 32 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: do you think that there's a high probability that's going 33 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: to happen? And I think that basically this infrastructure building bible, 34 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: we'll call it the Biff, the Biff bill we all 35 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: referred to as by partisan infrastructure bill. But the Biff Bill, 36 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: I think, and and Debbie would be able to tell 37 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: me better than anybody here. I would like to hope 38 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: it passes Wednesday. Evening. The President needs to take something 39 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: with it by the end of the week, biff bill 40 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: Wednesday evening, framework by the end of the week. Mansion 41 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: says he's keeping options open on the final price tag. 42 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: Then Speaker Nancy Pelosi emerged from a caucus meeting saying 43 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: Democrats are at a decision point because well, there's not 44 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: that much more time. Wanted it done by the weekend 45 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: transportation funding president's trip. And we heard from the Senate 46 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, who emerged from his caucus meeting 47 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: to say they are closer than they work yesterday. Here 48 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: he is, we're still working, and we are closer to 49 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: reaching a final agreement on President Biden's Build Back Better plan. Okay, 50 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: so it could happen as soon as tomorrow or not. 51 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: They have to find agreements on expanding medic are, if 52 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: at all, on the duration of the child tax credit, 53 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: on paid leave, and on climate those are the big ones, 54 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:07,839 Speaker 1: at least there are others. And then of course there's 55 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: how to pay for it. As we told you, all 56 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: signs are pointing now to a billionaires tax attacks on 57 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: unrealized gains, paired with a minimum corporate tax to replace 58 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: the planned hike in the corporate tax rate, the capital 59 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: gains tax. This is where some people start getting a 60 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: popsicle headache. And so we thought we'd call Grover Norquist today, 61 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: the longtime president of Americans for Tax Reform, talk us 62 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: through this, and he joins us. Now, Grover, welcome back 63 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: to Bloomberg. Is a tax on unrealized gains constitutional? Probably not, 64 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: because the Constitution had to be amended to tax income. Uh, 65 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: And unrealized capital gains are not income. That's why they're unrealized. 66 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: They're they're not income. That the value of your house 67 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: goes up, but you don't have the cash. The value 68 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: of your farm goes up, but you don't have any 69 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: cash to to pay uh any tax port. The value 70 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: of stocks go up, but stocks go down as well 71 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: as going up. UH. There was something likeness. It was 72 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: called they eliminated back in the mid uh two thousand's 73 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: a sorry mid nineties, just before Carter came in. They 74 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: got rid of the step up in basis, which was 75 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: there to stop this from happening. At depth. Just pick 76 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: up where you were in the mid seventies there. If 77 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: a tax on unrealized gains is not an income tax, 78 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: would that also make the surtax on millionaires a problem. Well, no, 79 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: if you so, it's just an income tax. I mean 80 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: they can call it a cerattack that they want. It's 81 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: just attacks on income, on real income. That would be constitutional. Uh. 82 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: One of the challenges is the Democrats had a series 83 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: of tax increases that they've dropped. They were going to 84 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: get rid of the step up in basis the thing 85 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: that put in a hundred years ago to say family farms, 86 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: that became very unpopular with small businessmen, self employed people, 87 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: and that was dropped out of the house spill. They 88 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: We're going to raise taxes by looking at everybody's bank accounts, 89 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: for all the small businesses that had six hundred dollar 90 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: checks or ten dollars in the course of the year. Uh. 91 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: That the President of the United States yesterday, according to Mansum, 92 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: said is ridiculous and will be in the package. And 93 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: now people like Chris the congressman from Florida who's running 94 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: for governor, before Biden gave him permission to say to 95 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: heck with ending bank privacy in order to collect more 96 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: taxes from small businesses, he said, I'm not in on this. Well, 97 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: if he took an Ali Alli in for you can 98 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: imagine everybody else goes. If I'm running for statewide office 99 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: where I'm running in a moderate district over Norquist, I'd 100 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: say we bring in the panel Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeanie 101 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: Schanzano and Rick Davis Um. Hopefully everybody's line holds up here, Rick, 102 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: what do you make of this conversation? Because if we're 103 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: talking about the constitutionality of of a major component here, 104 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: the pay for on this what could be two trillion 105 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: dollar deal, how does that get past the parliamentarian? How 106 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: does that become a law? Well, I don't think it's 107 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: so much the parliamentarian's role to opine on on this, 108 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: but it'll be challenging court, right, and this will be 109 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: taken out in the courts. But at the end of 110 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: the day, you really wonder whether this is a legitimate 111 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: attempt to find revenue for this bill or or just 112 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: a way to play politics with the tax code. Because 113 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: when you really think about it, Okay, ten people are 114 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: gonna give us half of this. Does anybody really want 115 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: to go out and defend Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk 116 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: and Larry Page and Sergey Brinn. I mean, like these 117 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: guys are you know, floating around in their massive yachts 118 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: and whatnot spaceships. It seems almost like a political stunt. 119 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: And and and by the way, what's the harm, right, Oh, 120 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: the government just writes a check. If this tax doesn't 121 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: make it all the way through, well, you know what, 122 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: Democrat doesn't want the government to ride a check anyway. 123 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: So are you talking deficit spending? A check? Absolutely? Big 124 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: govern check? You know? Well is that how do you 125 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: see this ending? Yeah? I think this is one of 126 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: these things where they everyone stands shoulders shoulders say oh, yeah, 127 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna tax the billionaires, and then it falls through 128 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: the cracks because it's actually not legal and uh and 129 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: and frankly very hard to actually implement. I mean, how 130 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: do you actually uh make this work? And nobody has 131 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: figured that out from what I can tell. Bring us 132 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: in off the ledge here, Genie is could this become 133 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: part of the law and is it? Is it good policy? 134 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: I think it is highly questionable. And I have to 135 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,239 Speaker 1: say that, yes, everybody, Democrat or Republican people are fine 136 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: going after the ten wealthiest people in the country, these 137 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: billionaires and having them pay for things. But let's go 138 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: back to what this was supposed to be, people like 139 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: Richie Neal and others on ways and means they wrote legislation. 140 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: It was raising the corporate tax, you know, to to 141 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: what you know, most people thought it should be, you know, 142 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: around even lower than they percent they had talked about. 143 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: It was re raising the marginal tax rates. It was 144 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: capital gains. That's what Democrats had been told was going 145 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: to happen. Just Mansion in cinema, why it's not happening, 146 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: and that that that's absolutely right. And you know, this 147 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: is the kind of thing that I think, you know 148 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: the fact that we're hearing Mansion say we could you know, 149 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: have this in place by Wednesday Friday. You know, Nancy Pelosi, 150 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: people optimistic. We're still talking about the pay force, and 151 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna pay for a bill this big by doing 152 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: a billionaire's tax, which most thinking people agree is highly 153 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: questionable in terms of its constitutionality. That's a big, big problem. 154 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: So then it becomes deficit spending. To Rick's point, Genie 155 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: or no, it does become deficit spending. And that's absolutely 156 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: what they promised would not happen. The promise here was 157 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: this would be paid for in a sensible and reasonable way, 158 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: and so you it you know, to me the unconstitutional 159 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: aspect of this, and again that's you know, we don't 160 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 1: know yet. But to Rick's point, this will find its 161 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: way to court. And by the way, while it's there, 162 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: what's going to happen. They're going to be writing checks 163 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: adding to the deficit. This is precisely what they promised 164 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't happen. And I'm surprised more people you know, we don't. 165 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 1: We haven't seen the legislation yet. Wouldn't be frustrated if 166 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: this is where they had with this. Well, there's no 167 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: victory parade, right because it wasn't that the promise Rick, 168 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: that this thing is I'll say, I won't say that 169 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't cost anything or whatever the line was, but 170 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,119 Speaker 1: it was paid for. Well, you know, this is exactly 171 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: the same tactic they used on on on trying to 172 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: fix the problem that was happening with UH with rental 173 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 1: um issues earlier in the administration, where the eviction subscriptions 174 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: and and President said, oh, well, I'll just sign this letter. 175 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: And what did the Supreme Court do say, Well, we 176 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: told you once it was illegal, and now we're telling 177 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: you twice it's illegal. And then they said, oh okay, 178 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: well we'll see if we get round two on that. 179 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 1: Rick and Jeannie with us for the hour on Bloomberg 180 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: Sound On, as we make our way through a Tuesday 181 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: waiting for a deal. Check on the markets and traffic 182 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: to help you get home straight ahead. Stay here, I'm 183 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: Joe Matthew and this is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg 184 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. We've got 185 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: our Green visors on today as we try to figure 186 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: out the tax policy behind infrastructure and reconciliation. And I 187 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: can throw another log on the fire. I'll say it's amazing. 188 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: Washington is amazing, and by that I mean predictable. As 189 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: I look at my email. Right in the flow during 190 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: the show, here a news release hits Widen Warren King 191 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: proposal on corporate minimum tax. This is the other part 192 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: of what I wanted to talk about. This goes along 193 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: with the billionaires tax to pay for the reconciliation plan. 194 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: Right and here I see it proposal an updated one 195 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: announcing an updated proposal to prevent the biggest it says, 196 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: in most profitable corporations from paying nothing in federal taxes. 197 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: This is what it's come to for your say, good 198 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 1: for you. I had a minute to read through this 199 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: during the break, because it is not until the eighth 200 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: paragraph that you get to the actual news. The corporate 201 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 1: profits minimum tax would ensure companies that report over a 202 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: billion dollars in profits two shareholders pay at least a 203 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: fifteen percent tax rate on those quote unquote gigantic profits. 204 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: It says here in the release. And so we reassemble 205 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: the panel. Rick and Genie are with us for the hour. 206 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: Where are we on this one? Genie, you add minimum 207 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: corporate tax rate instead of a higher corporate tax rate, 208 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: and you do it just in time for President Biden 209 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: to go abroad because this is something that's being done internationally. 210 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: Is that a political win? Can he say, hey, look 211 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: we did it too. Yeah, he can't say they've done 212 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: it until it's actually signed, sealed, and delivered. But well, 213 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: you know our favorite word, Genie, of framework, of framework. 214 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: You know, it has come to that the United States, 215 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: and we have the President of the United States going 216 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: out to the world and talking about frameworks actual legislation. 217 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 1: But yes, they will tout it as a win if 218 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: it's the best that they can get. I mean, it's 219 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: critically important. As you know, our Treasury Secretary has been 220 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: working very hard on this issue of a minimum corporate 221 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: minimum tax around the world, and so you know, to 222 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 1: have the important support of Congress is critical. But that's 223 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: the question here. Is this just Ron Wyden at all? 224 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: Or do they actually have the support of everybody they 225 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: need to get this through. We don't know that until 226 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: this thing passes in the President signs it, and then 227 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: another day goes by, we find somebody who doesn't like something, 228 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: we're out of the next week where we're talking about 229 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: maybe getting close to a deal. But let's say this flies. 230 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: I'm curious, Rick, if Republicans have an allergy to hire taxes. 231 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: Is a minimum corporate rate better than a higher corporate 232 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: tax rate? Well, a lower corporate tax right, is always 233 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: better than a higher corporate tax rate. Yes, I think 234 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: the applicance, if there was, would actually be very comfortable 235 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: with the idea that he's going to actually take it 236 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: down lower. Now they're still going to be the corporate 237 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: tax rate. What this would would be in line with 238 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: the This would keep two companies from cheating taxes. Basically, 239 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: this will be keep two companies that would guarantee a 240 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: minimum tax. Um. I don't think I would say a 241 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: company that doesn't pay taxes is cheating, because these are 242 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: all the laws that are already on the books that 243 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: they're adhering to. But um, but this would actually cut 244 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: out I assume some of those uh options that they 245 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: have and and take away those options and create a floor. 246 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: Uh Now I mean I I do think this just 247 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: speaks very loudly about an old bugaboo that John McCain 248 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: used to have, which he scream all the time. Regular order, 249 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: regular order, and regular order means to actually go through 250 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: committees of jurisdiction who have experts at tax policy, for instance, 251 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: send a Finance committee ways and means in the House 252 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: and have them hold hearings and do studies and actually 253 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: get a very thoughtful approach to writing our tax code. 254 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: Except that that's not what's happening. You know, we'll be 255 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: lucky to even know what's what's going to be approved 256 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: for about a week until after it's actually been signed 257 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: in a laws. So I think this process is turning 258 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: into a joke. I think that the Democrats are about 259 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: to come up with a plan that they have no 260 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: idea what impact is going to have on the American public. 261 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: Our institutions are companies, the legal system, and this is 262 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: just going to be a scrambled mess for the next 263 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: we're gonna tackle this plan coming up. The good thing 264 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: is this is the fastest hour in politics, because we're 265 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: getting tired of waiting. Are you close to a gun deal? 266 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: No problems. We'll take as long as we get takes. 267 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: I mean, if it takes a couple of days, that's great. 268 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: If it takes a couple of weeks, that's great. So 269 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: so I wouldn't say it's impatience. I would say it's 270 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: an interest in moving forward. The bill agreed to and written. 271 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: We just have some of the last decisions to be made. 272 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: Are you close to a deal? I think so. You know, look, 273 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: I've been I was a senator for three hundred seventy years. 274 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: The President has been doing this a while thirty six 275 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: years in the Senate. With all due respect you can do, 276 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: we had a very spirited discussion at our lunch. Passionate strong, 277 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: and there was universal universal agreement in that room that 278 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: we have to come to an agreement and we've got 279 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: to get it done. I want to get it done 280 00:15:53,000 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: this week. It's more of an ongoing conversation than it 281 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: is a passing back of dramatic paper every couple of days, 282 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: almost to the stretch we round at the turn. No 283 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: one ever said passing transformational legislation like this would be easy. 284 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: You all never bullied from the beginning it every day 285 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: night it is gone. I think we'll get it there. 286 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: I mean, is it just me? I know it's not. 287 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: We wait, we tire. There could be a deal, maybe 288 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: even a vote tomorrow. So let's talk about what would 289 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: be inside this thing if it actually gets that far 290 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: with Rick and Genie. Next on sound On, I'm Joe Matthew. 291 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg broadcasting live from our nation's capital, Bloomberg 292 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: to New York, Bloomberg eleven Frio to Boston, Bloomberg one 293 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: oh six one to San Francisco, Bloomberg nine to the country, 294 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: Serious XM General one nine and around the globe the 295 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business app and Bloomberg Radio dot Com. This is 296 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew. The headline on the 297 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: Terminal Cinema backs corporate minimum tax as part of Biden agenda. 298 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: So there's one. The Senator from Arizona as a yes. 299 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: How about the rest and what's inside. We'll talk about 300 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: that ahead with the panel. Bloomberg Politics contributors Genie Chanzano 301 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: and Rick Davis with us for the hour, then our 302 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: conversation with Congresswoman Susan del Bennet of Washington State only 303 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: here on sound On. Thanks for spending part of your 304 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: Tuesday with us here on Bloomberg sound On. I'm Joe 305 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: Matthew and Washington. We're spending time with the panel after 306 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: a fascinating conversation today with Senator Joe Manchin. And before 307 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 1: we even get that far again, the update here on 308 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: the corporate minimum tax. It appears that Senator Kyston Cinema 309 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: is on board, so may we were getting somewhere. Genie Chantano, 310 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: Rick Davis are with us. Genie, I don't know if 311 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: you had a chance to watch or listen to this 312 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: Joe Mansion interview with David Rubinstein. It was fascinating. I 313 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: actually I was missing appointments and you know, sitting here 314 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: watching this breakfast go on, I can't believe that we're 315 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: finally hearing from the man and getting some news here. 316 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: And he talked about a couple of different components of this, 317 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: this whole debate beginning with as we said, he thinks 318 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: they'll be an infrastructure vote tomorrow, So why don't we 319 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: start there? Do you think that's a realistic expectation? You 320 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: know it, I'm I'm chuckling because that piece that you 321 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: played brought back so many memories and it's and I 322 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: think we're all, you know, at least I am so 323 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: much older. Remember it was infrastructure spring summer, and and 324 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: and Joe Matthew. It makes me chuckle that you you 325 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: spend your days listening to Joe Mansion talk about infrastructure 326 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: and Joe Mansion and the Kinks. That's my life right there. 327 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: That sums it up, you know. I I think, you know, 328 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: he's optimistic in in my read that they that they 329 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: would get a vote At this point, I think the 330 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: real people to watch on this are the Democrats, particularly 331 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: the progressives in the House. Are they willing to sign 332 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: off on what is just a framework? As we keep hearing, 333 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, a Gia Pole said at one point that 334 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: that wouldn't be enough, and you really cannot blame them, 335 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, just look at this billionaire tax proposal they're 336 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: talking about. These Democrats are being asked to sign off 337 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: on something they haven't even seen the language of it yet, 338 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: let alone done all the things that Rick was talking 339 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: about through regular process, like you know, hearing from experts, 340 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: you know, looking at reports, seeing how this might impact 341 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: the American public. So you know, the fact that we're 342 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: still talking about pay force at this point, let alone 343 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: being able to look at language, makes me very skeptical 344 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: we will get a vote. You know. Hopefully he's right. 345 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: I would love to see a vote, but I'm really 346 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: watching to hear what the progressive say and whether they're 347 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: willing to go along with this. There's clearly a lot 348 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: of moving parts here. But Rick, when I heard Joe 349 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: Manchin say that, I said to myself alone in the studio, 350 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: talking to myself frequently, and I said, that's a Rick 351 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: Davis said last night. You still think? So? Yeah? I look, 352 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: you would have been more right than wrong if you 353 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: had just taken the Joe mansion line through this entire process. 354 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: Was it gonna be three and a half trillion? Didn't 355 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: even get to be two trillion? Right? It's right back 356 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: to that memo that Joe Manson signed back in July 357 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,719 Speaker 1: with Chuck Schumer, and that looks like pretty much the 358 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: outcome that you're gonna get. I mean, some of these 359 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: uh ways of financing this, this, this beast or changing. 360 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: But uh but Joe Mansion. Look, he's got the backing 361 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: of the entire Republican Caucus and him and that gives 362 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: him an enormous amount of power. And uh and so look, 363 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: I think I think that it was pressing to have 364 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: that interview this morning because obviously so many of these 365 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: things are coming together right at the very end, even 366 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: as we're talking on this show. Uh, this this process 367 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: is coming to a conclusion. So whether it's voted on 368 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: Thursday or you know, Friday, it doesn't really matter. By Monday, 369 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: hopefully we're not talking about b B B s and 370 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: fifths and everything else that we see about that God 371 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: knows that would be a miracle. I was taken by 372 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: his comments on the filibuster and and and by what 373 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: maybe you know he was talking about the filibuster. I 374 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: was taken by what he said about working together. It's 375 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: kind of a byproduct here, and it reminds me of 376 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: everyone walking around looking at their phones, you know, in 377 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: the world that they've got their own version of that. 378 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: On Capitol Hill. Listen to Joe Manchin. If you're not 379 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: going to talk and communicate, then the easy way to 380 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: do get rid of the filibuster. That's easy. Sure, all 381 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: this is easy. Like you'd be in favor of eliminating 382 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: the dead im I just get rid of it because 383 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: the dead emas should be done this way, the dead 384 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: emmons should be fourteenth moment. But the president has the 385 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: right to make that decision. We have the right to 386 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: override if we think he went too far. That to 387 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: me is as simple as it takes all the politicians 388 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: out of him making a deal. He got into the 389 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: debt limit there talking talking about uh something else there Rick, 390 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: But he was making the point that people don't walk 391 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: up to each other on the floor. I don't know 392 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: if you saw this, genie, people don't talk to each 393 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: other in the chamber, how would you ever expect them 394 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,479 Speaker 1: to get anything done? And there? Look, you can call 395 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: them old fashioned, but at a time like this, when 396 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: we're so tired of waiting, it does seem to make sense. 397 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: It does. And you know, that's how deals are made, 398 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: and that's how they historically have always been made. People 399 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 1: come together, they compromise, they bargain, it's not pretty, it's 400 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: not nice to watch. But they've got to talk to 401 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: each other. And you know the problem here is that 402 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: the talking is we're not even talking bipartisan. We're talking 403 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: just Democrats are trying to talk now to push this through. 404 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: And of course the filibuster remains a real sticking point 405 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: with Joe Manchin, and he does have a fair point. 406 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: That is something that if you get rid of Democrats, 407 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: beware because if Republicans take over, you may not be 408 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: happy with what they're able to do with fifty That's 409 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: the sent that that that you used to work in, 410 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: Rick Davis, people forget talking to it. They would yell 411 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: at each other on the floor sometimes. Yeah, Joe, I 412 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: I know this is hard to believe, but some people 413 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: think of me as old fashioned and and and and 414 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: I thought the worst thing that could ever happen on 415 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: the floor of the Senate in the house was TV 416 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: cameras c span but but allowing phones and you know, 417 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: which is basically a computer on the floor. Uh makes 418 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,239 Speaker 1: the makes the advent of TV uh look rudimentary. Uh. 419 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: If if you really want to return the Congress to 420 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: a place where uh, they talked to one another yank 421 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: the TVs and banned the phones, and all of a 422 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: sudden there's nothing else to do but to talk to 423 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: your fellow senator, fellow House member. Something might have happened 424 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 1: by now. I don't I don't mean to be too 425 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: cute here. There are a lot of other reasons, including 426 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, the deep part of the divides that we 427 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: have here, Genie. But maybe those wouldn't be so deep 428 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: if people were actually taking part in the process a 429 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: little bit here. If infrastructure is a stretch for tomorrow, 430 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: does that mean there's no framework this week. I think 431 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: we could get a framework this week. I am just 432 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: still waiting to hear from what the Progressives have to 433 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: say about this. This is not just about Joe Mansion. 434 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: The Bi Persson Infrastructure Bill is about getting the Progressives 435 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: to go for a vote, and so far we don't 436 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: know if they will. Good Democrats let the President go 437 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: abroad without a framework, Rick, absolutely not. He will say 438 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: goodbye to them and they're gonna have a package on 439 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: that plane that he can announce. It's gonna make his 440 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: trip more successful, uh than it currently has planned to be, 441 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: which is probably a disaster in the works. Congress Woman 442 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: Susan del Benny of Washington State is up next. I'm 443 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: Joe Matthew and this is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg. 444 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: You sound on with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. Democrats 445 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: holding out hope for a vote on infrastructure tomorrow Wednesday. 446 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: Senator Joe Mansion, as you heard on Bloomberg, says that 447 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: is his expectation. As we keep hearing the leadership nearing 448 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: a framework agreement on reconciliation that would allow that voting. 449 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: So anything is possible, it seems in the next hours. 450 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: As the President prepares to leave town. By the way, 451 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: he's going to be stumping for Terry mccauliffe a little 452 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: bit later on tonight and not far from where I'm sitting, 453 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: just hop over the Potomac River, Arlington, Virginia presidential visit 454 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: on the campaign trail. Now, one of the Democratic members 455 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: of the House has been central to the negotiations. His representative, 456 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: Susan del Bene of Washington State, serves as vice chair 457 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: of the House Ways and Means Committee, and she joins 458 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: us now, Congresswoman, thank you for being here, your chair 459 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: of the new Democrat coalition. We in the news media 460 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: like to refer to you as a moderate in all capitals, 461 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 1: as if that is its own party right now. I wonder, 462 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: if you see a vote happening on an infrastructure bill 463 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: this week, what are you hearing? Well, I think we 464 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: all want to make sure we get these bills across 465 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: the finish line, and I think, um, getting infrastructible in 466 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: place is very important. I think getting the reconciliation bill, 467 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: the Build Back Better Act done is equally important. So, UM, 468 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: we want to make sure that we help our community. 469 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: Is the only way we help them is that we 470 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: get bills through the House, the Senate and to the President. 471 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: So I think all of us are working hard to 472 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: try to get the infrastructure bill through quickly and to 473 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: make sure we have strong agreement on Build Back Better 474 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: agenda so we can get that through quickly as well. 475 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's Eric Wasson tweets from Capitol Hill. Primula Jaya Paul 476 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: and Alexandria Costio Cortez are against voting on infrastructure until 477 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: the House votes on reconciliation framework. Is not enough, they say, 478 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: I wonder congresswomen, if well, I guess ay, if if 479 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: you believe that's true, But but but I'm more interested 480 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: to hear about the groundhog day. Do you read into 481 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: this daily drip of commentary from all the members of 482 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: your caucus or do you see light at the end 483 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: of the tunnel here? Despite this, this kind of stair 484 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: off that moderates are having with with progressives, well, UM, 485 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: the new DUMN coalition is made up of members UH Democrats. UM. 486 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: Our focus is on getting things across the finish line. 487 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,479 Speaker 1: We know we don't help anyone until we get legislation passed. 488 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: So we've always been very clear that we think the 489 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: policy should drive the conversation, not the not a particular 490 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: number or necessarily a process, but making sure we have good, 491 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: strong policy. And so the first most important thing for 492 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: us on the Build Back Better or Reconciliation Bill is 493 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: to make sure we're clear what the policy is. UM. 494 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: We believe strongly in making sure we extend the child 495 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: tax credit, UM, that we keep the the the A, 496 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: the American UM Rescue Plan, premium subsidies for healthcare that 497 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: we're put in place, that we address the Medicaid gap, 498 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: that we go big on climate. Those have been our 499 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: top priorities. UMS on those though right the scale of 500 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: each policy, and the duration for spending for each of 501 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 1: those policies remains a sticking point. Well. I think that 502 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 1: the other key tenant that we've had is that it's 503 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: important to have UM to focus on a few things, 504 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: do them well for longer because we want stable, long term, 505 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: durable policy that families and communities can count on. So 506 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: if people come with their priorities to the table, then 507 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: that's how we put this legislation together. That's been our 508 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 1: goal on focus and I think that needs to continue 509 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: to be the focus. The number doesn't help anyone. UM. 510 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: What helps folks as the actual bill and telling them 511 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: what we're going to do UM to help families. And 512 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: that's why the focus has to be on the substance 513 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: of the policy. And where that conversation is right now 514 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: is on the substance of the policy. It's been a 515 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: lot of conversations about the pay for is here? How 516 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: do you pay for this? Over the past couple of days, 517 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: since the higher corporate tax rate seemed to be uh 518 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: mixed from the plan, there's been a lot of talk 519 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: about a possible billionaires tax, about taxi unrealized gains, as 520 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure you well know. Instead of the other rate hike. 521 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: I just wonder if you're comfortable with that and do 522 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: you feel like that's enforceable. Well, Um, in the Ways 523 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: the Means Committee, on which I serve, we sent a 524 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: lot of time putting together tax legislation, and I think 525 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: we had a strong proposal. Now there's been other discussions 526 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: from the Senate, like you said, are proposed Bill Inaire's taxes. 527 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: Books are calling it, but we haven't seen the specific legislation, 528 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: and I think it's important that we see specimple legislation 529 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,719 Speaker 1: to say exactly what does someone mean, um, when they 530 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: talk about such a policy, how would it work on? 531 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: What are the details? We have that detail behind all 532 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: the work that we did in our committee on the 533 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: House side. We need that detail from the Senate and 534 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,719 Speaker 1: we're waiting for them to put that idea down on paper. 535 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: Your colleague on the Ways and Means Committee, Richard Neil, 536 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: the chairman of Ways and Means, is clearly in favor 537 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: of the plan that you already hammered out. He said 538 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: that the plan that you had to to hike the 539 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: corporate tax rate in the capital gains tax rate is 540 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: sounding better every day, So it sounds like there's still 541 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: a pretty good debate to be had here. Well, we 542 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: had a bill that we put together once you committee, 543 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: they have had amendment to it. UM. I think folks 544 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: have had a lot of visibility, so our ideas have 545 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: been very well vetted and UM. And I think that's 546 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: important when we're talking about tax policy, about how it 547 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: will work, making sure you don't have unintended consequences. But 548 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: we need more information to understand what other policy proposals 549 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: might look like, and we're waiting for the Senate to 550 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: provide that information. We certainly seem open minded, but is 551 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: this just the business congresswoman, or do you feel like 552 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: somebody pulled a rug out from under you when you 553 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: you know you hear about this in the halls of 554 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: Congress or in the news media when you say, wait 555 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: a minute, we had a plan. Well, we need to 556 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: in n eighteen votes in the House and fifty votes 557 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: in the Senate to pass it through. UM. That's what 558 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: it takes. And so we've got to negotiate and get 559 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: those votes to make it happen. But I think we've 560 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time putting together good ideas, good 561 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: proposals to help us get across the finish line. We 562 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: need everyone at the table to do that, and we're 563 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: going to keep working hard to get there because we 564 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: don't help anybody unless we get those bills done. We're 565 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: talking with Congresswoman Susan Delbenny of Washington State, Democrat, serves 566 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: as vice chair of the House Ways and Means Committee 567 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: and is in the throes of this debate. You must 568 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: be living and breathing it here. You were in one 569 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: of the two meetings with President Biden last week that 570 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: that really seemed to get things moving again. There was 571 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: there was an energy that came from that day. What 572 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: was said in that room that made a difference. I 573 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: think it was the really the time when we started 574 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: talking about specifics, what are the actual proposals, um, what 575 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: are the specific policies we're going to have in a 576 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: final bill? And that conversation around substance was incredibly positive 577 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: for me, because the only way we're actually going to 578 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: land the plane this legislation is to have those discussions 579 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: about the specific policies, what's going to be in what's 580 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: the bill going to look like? And I knew we 581 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: weren't getting close to the end ntil we started having 582 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: those discussions, having those specific discussions. We had senators in 583 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: the room as well as UM, the President and members 584 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: of the House like myself. UM. That made me much 585 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: more optimistic because we're having the conversations we need to 586 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: have to get final legislation that can get two eighteen 587 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: votes in the House, that can get fifty in the Senate, 588 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: that we can get to the President's desk and UM, 589 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: and that's really the market that we're getting to a 590 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: place where we can close this. Are you determined to 591 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: have a deal before the President leaves for Europe this 592 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: weekend or is that kind of another self imposed deadline 593 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: that that you'd rather not focus on. Well, I think, UM, 594 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: we've had a lot of time to discuss this. I 595 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: think it's really important that we moved quickly, uh clearly 596 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: on the on any new text proposals. We're waiting for 597 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: that for specifics that the Senate might be providing. But 598 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: we've had a lot of discussions. I think we're the 599 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: point where people need to decide, UM, so we can 600 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: get this done, UM and get resources to the American people, 601 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: get programs that will help us build back better. UM. 602 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: And you know, I represent a purple district in Washington state, 603 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: there's one thing that folks want to see. They want 604 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: to see governance work. They want to see us make 605 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: these decisions, move forward, help our communities, and move on 606 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: to address many other issues that we need to be 607 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: talking about. Peaker Pelosi says, Democrats are at a decision point. 608 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people are hearing a lot 609 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: of numbers. Is one point five trillion, two trillion dollars, 610 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty billion here and and fifty billion there. 611 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: When you talk about whatever that price tag is going 612 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: to be, We're not going to arrive at that in 613 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: our conversation obviously today. But whatever that price tag is, 614 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: how many years will that be spread across so people 615 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,719 Speaker 1: understand is that a big fat check you're right at 616 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: the beginning and then enjoy the benefits of these programs, 617 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: or is that, you know, be annualized over five or 618 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: ten years. Well, we look at a tenure budget window 619 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: when we talk about things, but different programs may go 620 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: across those ten years, some maybe for part of it. 621 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: This is all part of how um, depending on the program, 622 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: how things are crafted and UM and I do think 623 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: that it's important that we people have stability can count 624 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: on things if we have short term policies that might 625 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 1: expire after a year then and then we assume they'll 626 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: have to be renewed later, makes it harder for families 627 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: to plan. I means Congress has to take action again, 628 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: so makes it easier. It makes it easier for something 629 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: to go away. So it is important too. And I 630 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: think something we've been pushing for make sure we do 631 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: things well. We focus on things could have an immediate 632 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: impact for our communities. UM that can that so that 633 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: people can see that impact and can count on it, 634 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: and UM and provide that long term visibility. I think 635 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: that few were things well camp forgive me for interrupting 636 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: for longer, Yes, for longer, got it? UM, And and 637 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: that's going to be an important part of whatever this 638 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: next twenty four hours brings. How does this end, congresswoman 639 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: is does the leadership going to hammer this out in 640 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: a room tonight or what's going to take place? Well, 641 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: we've had many different conversations going on, UM conversations the President, 642 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: conversations that we've had with our colleagues, or between the 643 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: House and the Senate. UM. But in the end we 644 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: have to decide what those final pieces are and understand 645 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 1: where we have that support to get the to eighteen 646 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 1: and in the House, in the fifty and the Senate. 647 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: So that's what we're working through now. UM. And so folks, 648 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: I think we've all provided lots of input and continue 649 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: to provide input in the process. UM. And we do 650 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,959 Speaker 1: have to decide on what the final bill is gonna 651 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: look like. The decision point has arrived, as the Speaker said, 652 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: and thanks to Representative Susan del Benet of Washington State 653 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: House ways in me means chair of the new Democrat Coalition, 654 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: with a little peek behind the curtain for you there 655 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: on sound on, we'll meet you back here tomorrow, maybe 656 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: there'll be a deal. I'm Joe Matthew and this is Bloomberg.