Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music, beefs and
Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's and today we're here to answer the biggest
Speaker 1: question in heavy metal. You know, really, it's one of
Speaker 1: life's great questions. It's up there with why are we here?
Speaker 1: And are we alone in the universe. Today we're going
Speaker 1: to tackle the age old question Metallica or Megadeth. Yes,
Speaker 1: although I'm sure there's somebody out there who's mat that
Speaker 1: we're not also talking about Slayer and Anthrax, you know,
Speaker 1: all due respect to the Big Four, but we're focusing
Speaker 1: on Metallica and Megadeth because these bands are linked by
Speaker 1: one Dave mus Stain, who used to be a Metallica
Speaker 1: and then was kicked out before they put out their
Speaker 1: first record, Kill Them All in the eighty three. After
Speaker 1: that he formed Megadeth with the goal of the throning
Speaker 1: Metallica from the top of the thrash metal heap. Uh.
Speaker 1: He's like Robert de Niro in Cape Fear and Metallica
Speaker 1: is the Nickna character. That's amazing. Yes, I mean you know,
Speaker 1: it's not gonna come as much of a surprise that
Speaker 1: I'm not the world's biggest metal head. But the feud
Speaker 1: between Dave Mustain and his ex Metallica bandmates fascinates me
Speaker 1: to no end. It's just one of the most intense
Speaker 1: band on band rivalries ever because it's so damn personal.
Speaker 1: Mustain was fired from the group literally days before they
Speaker 1: went into the studio to record their first album, which
Speaker 1: sent him on the road to being the biggest metal
Speaker 1: band ever. They put him on a cross country greyhound
Speaker 1: Penny listens scrounging for potato chips for four days with
Speaker 1: nothing to do but plot is revenge, that's cold, and
Speaker 1: he forms Mega Death in an attempt to out metal Metallica.
Speaker 1: And just imagine being defined by your worst moment. That's
Speaker 1: pretty much what happened to Dave Mustain. His entire life
Speaker 1: was shaped by the single incident. And Mustain, to me,
Speaker 1: is such a compelling, tragic comic hero. He's like Gatsby.
Speaker 1: He just can't let go of the past, and even
Speaker 1: when he tries, he can't escape it. It's Metallica. They're
Speaker 1: that ubiquitous, They're that assive. No matter how big Megadeth
Speaker 1: get they'll never be Metallica, And yet I know there
Speaker 1: are true blue metal fans out there who prefer Megadeth
Speaker 1: to Metallica for the very reason that Megadeth never really
Speaker 1: went pop. You know, they've stayed true to the metal
Speaker 1: path for about thirty five years while Metallica pursued MTV
Speaker 1: fame and power ballot hits. Dave Mustain isn't as famous
Speaker 1: as Lars al Rick, but de Mustain also never became
Speaker 1: the focus of scorn because he spoke out against napster,
Speaker 1: you know. So you know there are cases for success,
Speaker 1: whether it's commercial or artistic, to be made on both
Speaker 1: sides of this equation. So without further ado, let's get
Speaker 1: into this mess. Like so many of life and pleasantries,
Speaker 1: this whole thing is Laras al Ric's fault. It was
Speaker 1: he who put the classified ad in a local newspaper
Speaker 1: which read drummer looking for another metal musicians the jam
Speaker 1: with Tigers of Pentang, Diamond Head and Iron Maiden. Those
Speaker 1: were his influences, it was, and the teenage Lars had
Speaker 1: recently immigrated to l A from Denmark with dreams of
Speaker 1: becoming a pro hennis player like his father. But then
Speaker 1: he fell prey to the new wave of a British
Speaker 1: heavy metal heralded by the likes of Diamond Head Iron
Speaker 1: Maiden Venom. His ad was answered by James Headfield, and
Speaker 1: James was this painfully shy kid from the l a
Speaker 1: suburb of Downey, which is also home of the Carpenters.
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, he had had Field hit it off and
Speaker 1: that became the nucleus of Metallica. If Van Halen was
Speaker 1: Eddie and Alex, Metallica had these two, and you know,
Speaker 1: when all is said and done, they're the only two
Speaker 1: consistent members now. Another guy that answered Lars ulriks ad
Speaker 1: was Dave Mustain, and Mustain at that time he had
Speaker 1: played in a local band called Panic, but that band
Speaker 1: ended fairly early on because both the drummer and the
Speaker 1: sound guy were killed after their second show, which is unbelievable,
Speaker 1: like a very I guess metal way for a metal
Speaker 1: band to end. But Dave Mustain was sent adrift by this.
Speaker 1: It's the first, I guess of many heartbreaks for him
Speaker 1: in terms of losing out on rock bands. But he
Speaker 1: shows up to the Metallica audition and Lars and Jays
Speaker 1: are very impressed. By both his gear and his ability
Speaker 1: to shred on guitar, and they invited him to join
Speaker 1: the band and they find that like I think, Dave
Speaker 1: initially fit in because him and James had a similar background.
Speaker 1: Dave Mustain was raised as a Jehovah's witness and James
Speaker 1: Hetfield was raised as a Christian scientist, so they had
Speaker 1: that very strict religious background that of course drove them
Speaker 1: into metal music. Eventually. They also both had to deal
Speaker 1: with fathers who had walked out on their families early on,
Speaker 1: so they I think we're both dealing with abandonment issues. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: Dave Mustain was going to have those abandonment issues compounded
Speaker 1: by his experience in Metallica. But of course we're getting
Speaker 1: ahead of ourselves. In early two, Metallica recorded their first
Speaker 1: original song, Hit the Lights, for the Metal Massacre one compilation,
Speaker 1: and they started playing gigs around l A. But they
Speaker 1: really struggled to fit into the rock scene, which at
Speaker 1: that time was basically spandex hair metal strippers partying all
Speaker 1: that sunset striped stuff. And this wasn't Metallica. Like David
Speaker 1: Stain would later say, the other bands wanted the girl
Speaker 1: we wanted to rule the world, and they responded to
Speaker 1: the apathy of the crowds by simply playing louder and
Speaker 1: faster than anyone, which became a hallmark of their sound.
Speaker 1: And in the early days of the band, Dave Mustain
Speaker 1: was really seen as the virtuos, so he was sort
Speaker 1: of a guy out front, the focal point. People who
Speaker 1: knew the band at that time, like Scott Anna Amtrax,
Speaker 1: he would say he was the frontman, he was the mouthpiece,
Speaker 1: he was the personality. James Hetfield was still pretty reserved
Speaker 1: and developing his own stage persona, and in later years
Speaker 1: Dave Mustain would accuse James being jealous of getting being
Speaker 1: the one who got all the attention during these early
Speaker 1: shows because of his own natural charisma. He would say,
Speaker 1: James whole frontman persona he copped from me. In the
Speaker 1: beginning of the band, he just sang and I did
Speaker 1: all the guitar work. When he was done singing, he'd
Speaker 1: walk away from the microphone and I had to walk
Speaker 1: up to the mic and talk. Now, in case it's
Speaker 1: not already apparent, Dave Mustain is like a pretty abrasive character.
Speaker 1: Like I interviewed Da Mustain a long time ago, and
Speaker 1: he was like a pretty intimidating dude. And you know,
Speaker 1: I remember asking questions and he would like pause for
Speaker 1: like it felt like thirty seconds before he would answer,
Speaker 1: you know, I think, just to make me feel like
Speaker 1: an idiot for asking him any questions. Wait, this was two,
Speaker 1: so this was some kind of Monster era. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: this is like before some kind of Monster. So I
Speaker 1: don't think that. I don't think the movie was out yet.
Speaker 1: We were talking about whatever Mega Death record, which just
Speaker 1: like a guy on the screen was who you Oh
Speaker 1: my god, that's terrifying. Wow. Yeah. So I think even
Speaker 1: like when David Stain was sober, he was a pretty
Speaker 1: difficult guy to deal with. But in Metallica, the issues
Speaker 1: with him really started to arise because of his drinking.
Speaker 1: Now that seems a little weird to talk about with
Speaker 1: Metallica because they are one of the most famously like
Speaker 1: hard drinking bands of all time, famously nicknamed Alcoholica. Uh
Speaker 1: and you know, if you've seen some kind of Monster,
Speaker 1: you know you know that history with the band. But
Speaker 1: David Stain really reminds me of that friend that I
Speaker 1: think we all had in college at one point where
Speaker 1: they were basically the drunken asshole friend, you know, the
Speaker 1: friend that like, you know, you like them when they're sober,
Speaker 1: but like when you got to the bars that they
Speaker 1: have a few too many drinks, they just turned into
Speaker 1: this very sort of confrontational, aggressive person. And that's what
Speaker 1: Dave Mustain was like. You know, he later said, you know,
Speaker 1: I would drink and have fun until someone would refute
Speaker 1: something I had said, and then that was war. Baby.
Speaker 1: I'd be aggressive and confrontational because I was a violent drunk.
Speaker 1: So you know, if you're hanging out your partying, everyone's
Speaker 1: having a good time, but then you have one guy
Speaker 1: who just like wants to get into arguments all the
Speaker 1: time and is being pushy about his opinions. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's that can be a pretty like wearies something to
Speaker 1: be around. So there's that issue with Dave Mustain. There's
Speaker 1: also something, uh that ends up being a pretty big deal.
Speaker 1: I guess we'll call it the dog incident uh Metallica,
Speaker 1: where at an earlier rehearsal, Dave Mustain brought his dog
Speaker 1: to the rehearsal and UH this dog was particularly troublesome
Speaker 1: to the band's basis at the time, whose name was
Speaker 1: Ron mcgoverney total basis name. By the way, I love
Speaker 1: the name Rob mcg Derek mcquickly. It's like this exact
Speaker 1: metal name. But yeah, it just reminds me of like
Speaker 1: a nondescript basis Like you knew Ron mcgoverney was not
Speaker 1: going to be the guy. He was not destined for
Speaker 1: the long haul. Yeah, it's like if your name is
Speaker 1: Ron mcgoverney, you're you're going to be like a blip
Speaker 1: in the industry of metalica. But anyway, Mustain brings his
Speaker 1: dog to the rehearsal and apparently this dog ends up
Speaker 1: scratching Ron mcgoverney's car, and James Hedfield is so incensed
Speaker 1: by this that he like kicks the dog, which is
Speaker 1: not cool to kick a dog, and Dad Mustain, you know,
Speaker 1: he is a drunken asshole, but I think in this
Speaker 1: case he was justified and getting upset and he actually
Speaker 1: like just pulled back and like punched James Hedfield in
Speaker 1: the mouth over this, and apparently, like ms Stain was
Speaker 1: like fired over this fight, but then they brought him
Speaker 1: back shortly after. But you know, after you punch someone
Speaker 1: in your band in the mouth, things are not hard
Speaker 1: going to be the same after that. Yeah, so it
Speaker 1: seems like at that point Mustain his position in Metalica
Speaker 1: wasn't terribly tenable at this point, and he continued to
Speaker 1: terrorize poor Ron mcgoverney when he was drunk, and there
Speaker 1: was occasion where he poured beer down the neck of
Speaker 1: his bass, which caused the pickups on his base to
Speaker 1: short out, and Ron freaked out and threw everybody out
Speaker 1: of his house. I mean, Ron just he couldn't hang basically,
Speaker 1: I mean the North should he He He shouldn't have to
Speaker 1: deal with that. So poor mcgifney, the band, and poor mcgoverney.
Speaker 1: He left the band very soon after, and uh as
Speaker 1: a replacement, Metallica set out to recruit Cliff Burton, who
Speaker 1: was in the Bay Area band called Trauma, and he
Speaker 1: could play these mind meltingly good bass solos and they
Speaker 1: almost sounded like guitar solos. They were so so dexterous.
Speaker 1: They were just so so fast and furious, and James
Speaker 1: and Larns has seen him perform and they were just
Speaker 1: absolutely captivated. So they began trying to woo him, and
Speaker 1: he agreed on the condition that the band relocated to
Speaker 1: northern California and That's how Metallica became one of San
Speaker 1: Francisco's favorite sons. It seems pretty amazing that like Metallica
Speaker 1: would pick up and moved to a different part of
Speaker 1: the state just because of Cliff Burton. You know, like
Speaker 1: they're already established in Los Angeles, but it's like they
Speaker 1: wanted him in the band so bad that they were
Speaker 1: willing to move, you know, several hundred miles north. Can
Speaker 1: you blame him? No? I mean it really speaks to
Speaker 1: like how amazing Cliff Burton was. I mean, he was
Speaker 1: like the Jaco Pistorius of like metal bass playing, you know,
Speaker 1: just a virtuoso and putting him in the band and
Speaker 1: you know, sending up poor Ron mcgoverney into the dustbin
Speaker 1: of history. I mean it really was putting Metallica on
Speaker 1: their way to becoming like this huge band that's going
Speaker 1: to change the world. But of course there's still this
Speaker 1: guy didn't standing in the band, who is not going
Speaker 1: to be sticking around much longer. No, it really it
Speaker 1: goes down on the trip to New York and Lars
Speaker 1: have been circulating their seventh song demo, No No Life
Speaker 1: to Leather, and one copy landed in the hands of
Speaker 1: a character named was Johnny z And by day he
Speaker 1: ran a New Jersey flea market called Rock and Roll Heaven,
Speaker 1: which was this local metal mecca, and he started a
Speaker 1: label called Megaforce Records, and he and he liked the band.
Speaker 1: He like what he heard, and he offered to pay
Speaker 1: for them to drive out so he could work with them.
Speaker 1: So the Metallica drove a U Hall van supposedly a
Speaker 1: stolen you Hale van uh and drove this across the
Speaker 1: country and they would stop along the way at friends
Speaker 1: houses where Davos Dan would get really wrong and trash
Speaker 1: their friends houses. And this really was sort of the
Speaker 1: last straw for everybody in the band. I mean, this
Speaker 1: guy was just disrespecting their friends homes and property that
Speaker 1: he he had to go. So they get to New
Speaker 1: York and they're staying at I think it was Anthrax's
Speaker 1: practice space up in Queens. I mean they were sleeping
Speaker 1: on like U haul blankets and eating they called him
Speaker 1: blowny on hand sandwiches. They didn't even have white bread,
Speaker 1: they just had blowney that they would just eat raw. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, really really low resource. And they were playing
Speaker 1: a couple of gigs in New York and and Dave
Speaker 1: would get drunk during sound checks and heckle the headliners
Speaker 1: and stuff. He was just a huge liability at this point.
Speaker 1: In addition to being unpleasant to be around. You could
Speaker 1: tell he was He was just a liability because of
Speaker 1: his drinking. And this really sets the stage for probably
Speaker 1: one of the most notorious band dismissals in rock history.
Speaker 1: I love that we know the date that he was fired,
Speaker 1: April eleven three, a day that will forever live in
Speaker 1: metal infamy. Dave Mustain wakes up. He's sleeping on this
Speaker 1: I think Mattress essentially just laid on the floor of
Speaker 1: their rehearsal space and he wakes up. He just hung
Speaker 1: over his hell and he looks up and he sees
Speaker 1: James Hedefield, Lars Alric and Cliff Burton standing above him,
Speaker 1: and they tell him essentially that you're fired. And not
Speaker 1: only are you fired, but like we bought a bus
Speaker 1: ticket for you, like a four day Greyhound trip back
Speaker 1: to California, and it leaves in an hour, so and
Speaker 1: the stain is like, you know, days again, he's you know,
Speaker 1: drank hard the night before, so he's really hungover, doesn't
Speaker 1: really know what's going on and I mean it seems
Speaker 1: like this was intentional, like they were ambushing him in
Speaker 1: this weekend state because they didn't want to have a
Speaker 1: fight about it. You know. It seems like they just
Speaker 1: wanted to get this over as quickly as possible. There's
Speaker 1: that story that Mustain tells that like he boarded the
Speaker 1: bus with like a small bag of potato chips and
Speaker 1: that was it. Like that was like one of the
Speaker 1: details that he remembers that he all he had to
Speaker 1: eat was potato chips and shove him on right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was wasted. He's hungover. They shove him on this
Speaker 1: bus with potato chips and uh, he's gone out of
Speaker 1: the band and like James and large, they spend the
Speaker 1: rest of the day just getting wasted, you know, because
Speaker 1: I think they felt bad about doing this, but they
Speaker 1: knew ultimately that there was no other choice. That Dave
Speaker 1: Mustain was, uh, you know, just a terrible person to
Speaker 1: be around. You know again, like we've all known someone
Speaker 1: like that that maybe for a while it's kind of
Speaker 1: fun to hang out with them. But for all of
Speaker 1: Mustain's talent as a as a guitar player, and also
Speaker 1: you know, the Christmas that he had on stage. I
Speaker 1: think Metallica felt like, Okay, we're approaching a point where
Speaker 1: we're gonna maybe be able to put a record, and
Speaker 1: we're not going to be able to get to where
Speaker 1: we're going. Get this guy's in the band. It does
Speaker 1: make me think about that story in Guns and Roses,
Speaker 1: like when they fired Steven Adler for like doing too
Speaker 1: many drugs, And it is sort of a weird thing
Speaker 1: again because Metallica was this famously hard drinking band to
Speaker 1: fire a guy for drinking too much, you know, it
Speaker 1: is that situation like we're writing speeding tickets at the
Speaker 1: ND five hundred, you know, like this one guy gets
Speaker 1: punished for what everyone else in the group is doing.
Speaker 1: But again, it does seem like Metallica maybe really had
Speaker 1: no other choice. And now I think was really what
Speaker 1: hurt too from mistake was that, you know, he would
Speaker 1: admit in later years like, yeah, I should have been
Speaker 1: kicked out of Metallica, I should have been kicked out
Speaker 1: of Megadeth. That could be quite honest, Like I I
Speaker 1: know that I was not good to be around. I
Speaker 1: think he resented the lack of warning and the lack
Speaker 1: of an option of going to get treatment, which James
Speaker 1: himself did in later years. So I think it was
Speaker 1: really the double standard was like, why did I get
Speaker 1: kicked out of this band? Well, James Hetfield was treated
Speaker 1: with compassion. I mean, I'm sure over the twenty years
Speaker 1: between those two incidents, like we understood how to treat
Speaker 1: addiction and alcohol wasn't a lot better. But still there
Speaker 1: was an element, like you said, was it me? Did
Speaker 1: they just want me out of the band? Was a
Speaker 1: rejection of me and not my my disease, not wanting
Speaker 1: to deal with with my problem. And I think that
Speaker 1: really hurt him because, you know, it was the second
Speaker 1: time in a few years that a band had been
Speaker 1: just ripped away from him in an instant, you know,
Speaker 1: in a space of two hours. He lost the people
Speaker 1: that he considered to be his best friends and the
Speaker 1: band that he allowed to define himself. And now he
Speaker 1: just had four days on a gray hund bus with
Speaker 1: a bag of potato chips to just moll this over
Speaker 1: and you know, seething, receiving and plotting revenge. It seems
Speaker 1: like it's it seems like his dreams of revenge like
Speaker 1: started like almost immediate immediately, Oh totally. I mean, he
Speaker 1: he's bored to tears, and he's like, you know, trying
Speaker 1: to read anything can get his hands on and get
Speaker 1: his mind off of, you know, what his life's become
Speaker 1: in this moment. And he gets his hand on a
Speaker 1: handbill from a Democratic Senator, Alan Cranston, I think is
Speaker 1: his name, and he warned against an escalating nuclear threat.
Speaker 1: And the phrase on this handbill was the arsenal of Megadeth,
Speaker 1: can't be ridd And that phrase inspired Mustains scribbled down
Speaker 1: lyrics to a song, and ultimately that was the name
Speaker 1: for his next band. Of course, he took out the
Speaker 1: A in death. That was, like, I guess, the final
Speaker 1: poetic stroke of genius for exactly take out the A
Speaker 1: and death and we have a most metal name. So
Speaker 1: while Davostain is on this bus plotting revenge against Metallica,
Speaker 1: Metallica already had a replacement lined up for Dave Mustain
Speaker 1: and that is, of course Kirk Hammett, who was the
Speaker 1: guitarist in Metallica to this day. They he was a
Speaker 1: member at the time of a Bay Area band called Exodus,
Speaker 1: which is also a very famous metal band. They flew
Speaker 1: him out to New York to audition Malcome exactly didn't
Speaker 1: take the bus, but exactly apparently he impressed the guys
Speaker 1: of Metallica by just nailing Dave Mustain solos on songs
Speaker 1: like so He Can Destroy. I also have to think
Speaker 1: that like a big part of the appeal for Kirk
Speaker 1: Hammet for the people in Metallica was his personality. You know,
Speaker 1: I've interviewed Kirk Hammett, and I mean, I think this
Speaker 1: is apparent to anyone who's ever seen an interview with
Speaker 1: him anywhere, that he's like a very laid back guy,
Speaker 1: and he seems like generally like pretty unassuming and like
Speaker 1: sweet natured and basically just like the opposite of of
Speaker 1: Dave Mimsstain. Like I think, like Kirk Hammett also had
Speaker 1: his own substance abuse problems, but my guests with Hammett
Speaker 1: is that like when he got wasted, he was probably
Speaker 1: just like given lots of hugs and bro hugs and
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. He wasn't gonna be like, you know,
Speaker 1: starting fights and and punching people in the mouth. So
Speaker 1: it seemed like, you know, musically, Kirk Hammett could deliver
Speaker 1: what Dave Mustain did, but also maybe even more crucially,
Speaker 1: he added balance to the band, like the power center
Speaker 1: was always going to be James and Lars, and I
Speaker 1: feel like Dave must would have threatened that, you know,
Speaker 1: even if he wasn't like a drunken jerk like, he
Speaker 1: would have asserted his own power in the band, whereas
Speaker 1: Kirk Hammont, I think just was more naturally deferential and
Speaker 1: was going to like play his role as the lead
Speaker 1: guitarist in Metallica and not threaten anyone else's role. And
Speaker 1: you know, in later years, Mustan would say not very
Speaker 1: complimentary things about Kirk, and Kirk, to his credit, never
Speaker 1: rose to the baby would alway. He was always very
Speaker 1: civil with mistanding interviews and things like that, which I
Speaker 1: think says a lot about his character. Also, you're right there,
Speaker 1: there's a sweetness to him there, which which I think
Speaker 1: that the band desperately needed between the the Lars James duo.
Speaker 1: Now I'm sure what was you know, even more aggravating
Speaker 1: to Dave must Know he's been fired from this band.
Speaker 1: He has to figure out a new path forward in
Speaker 1: his own career. But then you know Metallica, they put
Speaker 1: out killam A in three and there's like a significant
Speaker 1: number of songs that like mus Stain played a role
Speaker 1: in writing. I mean it's like he's not in the
Speaker 1: band anymore, but like he is still like a ghost
Speaker 1: figure really in Metallica. On that first record, right, he's
Speaker 1: credited on four songs, the Four Horsemen, which was on
Speaker 1: the now Lifetill Leather Uh demo under the title Mechanics,
Speaker 1: was Jumping the Fire, Phantom Lord, which Mustaining would later
Speaker 1: rework as Megadeth, This Was My Life on Countdown the
Speaker 1: Extinction and Metal Militia, And then there's also debate about
Speaker 1: how much input that Mustain had for Seek and Destroy
Speaker 1: too Uh. And he's also credited on the band's second album,
Speaker 1: Ride the Lightning, including the title track and the instrumental
Speaker 1: Clothes or the Call of Kachulu. Yeah, and by the way,
Speaker 1: these are all great songs. Yeah, I mean these are
Speaker 1: not like, you know, just like whatever album thought types
Speaker 1: of things, especially the Call of Kachulu. That's like one
Speaker 1: of my favorite Meta Alica songs. And you can definitely
Speaker 1: hear the influence of Dave Mustain like on those tracks.
Speaker 1: Like to me, like they are the most sort of
Speaker 1: like Megadeth like sounding songs in the Metallica discography. So
Speaker 1: must arrives back in California after this four day bust journey,
Speaker 1: and he's broke and he had to get a proper job.
Speaker 1: So he had a brief stint as a telemarketer and uh,
Speaker 1: which I mean, can you imagine getting like you know,
Speaker 1: Dave mus day in calling trying to sell you, like
Speaker 1: a credit card or like low interest loan or encyclopedias
Speaker 1: or something. Hello me, it's me again selling credit cards.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's pretty amazing. I wish somebody recorded that.
Speaker 1: But his bitterness over this dismissal just festered, and he
Speaker 1: put together a new band specifically to compete with Metallica.
Speaker 1: You would say you wanted to outmetal Metallica. Uh. In
Speaker 1: later years he would say, I measured my success by
Speaker 1: whether or not I ate that day. My vision was
Speaker 1: to destroy Metallica and stop living in a van. And
Speaker 1: he spent much of recruiting the perfect members for his mission.
Speaker 1: You know, he been burned by Metallica, So he approached
Speaker 1: Megadeth as basically like a metal auto crap. Like he
Speaker 1: would say, democracy doesn't work in a band. I have
Speaker 1: to have my own band to make music exactly the
Speaker 1: way I want to hear it with no compromises that
Speaker 1: anyone else's ego whatsoever. So he has this vision, but
Speaker 1: unfortunately his drive to out metal metallica was also matched
Speaker 1: by his addiction. He gets a recording deal with Combat Records,
Speaker 1: and he reportedly spent half of his really poultry studio
Speaker 1: advance on alcohol and drugs rather than studio time. And
Speaker 1: this is a big reason why Megadeth nine five debut,
Speaker 1: Killing is my business and business is good wasn't as
Speaker 1: strong as it could have been. I mean, he would
Speaker 1: later say, simply put we ran out of money. But
Speaker 1: it's sort of a lack of production quality on the album.
Speaker 1: It's it's almost low five. There's sort of a weak
Speaker 1: sound there. Now when you listen to the next Megadeth record,
Speaker 1: which is Peace Cells, but who's buying? I mean, I
Speaker 1: think you can hear like a significant upgrade in like
Speaker 1: songwriting and the production. I mean, that's where Megadeth, I think,
Speaker 1: is starting to sound like a real deal, like big
Speaker 1: time metal band, although things were still like very chaotic
Speaker 1: behind the scenes. The band's bass player Dave Ellison has
Speaker 1: this great quote where he says that p Cells was
Speaker 1: recorded on a diet of heroin burghers and cigarettes. Uh
Speaker 1: still made made manassas to exactly. It's a very popular
Speaker 1: diet here on the Rivals podcast, I think, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think that shows a contrast with Metallica. I mean,
Speaker 1: Metallica I think always had a lot of craziness going
Speaker 1: on behind the scenes, but they always strike me as
Speaker 1: like like from the beginning being a very professional career
Speaker 1: as band, Like they knew that they wanted to be
Speaker 1: huge and they would deliver on the biggest stages, and
Speaker 1: that's how they were able to build their career as
Speaker 1: the eighties progressed, whereas Megadet I think because of Dave Mustain,
Speaker 1: maybe not quite as reliable in that regard, and they
Speaker 1: were a little bit I think more hamstrung by you know,
Speaker 1: some of the craziness that was going on. Of course,
Speaker 1: they were also hamstrung by again Dave Mists, just like
Speaker 1: psychopathic hatred of Metallica. I mean, when it's your goal
Speaker 1: to destroy another band, you know, like that's not maybe
Speaker 1: the best goal to have, Like you're not really focusing
Speaker 1: on what you're doing, You're always thinking about somebody else,
Speaker 1: and you're just setting yourself up ultimately, Uh, for disappointment,
Speaker 1: especially when you are comparing yourself to what's going to
Speaker 1: become the most you know, commercially successful metal band ever
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, kind of going back to that
Speaker 1: professionalism uh thing I was talking about earlier. You know,
Speaker 1: one thing I think that really hurt Megadeth is that
Speaker 1: Dave Mustain was not a great interview And I mean
Speaker 1: he was great in the sense that you'd have like
Speaker 1: wonderful quotes, but he wasn't very cooperative with reporters. He
Speaker 1: could be very standoffish. He wasn't somebody that like I
Speaker 1: think people like to talk to, uh, which you know,
Speaker 1: like when you're building your career and you're trying to
Speaker 1: make connections, it is important to kiss the ring to
Speaker 1: a certain degree if you want people to help you out.
Speaker 1: And there was gonna be no ring kissing at all
Speaker 1: with Dave Mustain. And I'm sure one thing that drove
Speaker 1: him mad is that, like people wouldn't stop asking him
Speaker 1: about Metallica, and this was not something that he ever
Speaker 1: really got over. Like not only did he not get
Speaker 1: over it, but it seemed like the trauma of being
Speaker 1: kicked out of that band was always very close to
Speaker 1: the surface, Like this this one time, like he was
Speaker 1: asked about Metallica, and this is a great quote. He says,
Speaker 1: it's like getting into a car crash. Every time you
Speaker 1: close your eyes, you relived the car crash, And every
Speaker 1: time someone brings up the name of that band, it's
Speaker 1: like we'reliving a car crash, but getting over it. I
Speaker 1: have to do this on my own terms. I can't
Speaker 1: go up to someone who's been raped and say get
Speaker 1: over it. How insensitive is that? She's pretty insensitive, it
Speaker 1: says that. I would say it's as insensitive as lining
Speaker 1: getting kicked out of the band and being raped. That's
Speaker 1: a pretty insensitive thing too. But yeah, like this was
Speaker 1: clearly like just all consuming for him, even as Megaeth
Speaker 1: was starting to take off. I mean, I'm having a
Speaker 1: hard time. I'm thinking of any other band that was
Speaker 1: ever formed for the express purpose of crushing another band?
Speaker 1: Is this unique in rocket history? I think it may be. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I think it's unique because of the
Speaker 1: motivation and also because mss Stain was like very successful, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, it'd be like if Pete Best you know,
Speaker 1: had formed another band after being kicked out of the
Speaker 1: Beatles that like weren't as big as the Beatles, but
Speaker 1: like maybe we're as big as the Kinks or the
Speaker 1: who you know, Like that doesn't really happen very often,
Speaker 1: so that's unique. But then you know the fact that
Speaker 1: ms Stain was so upfront about this. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: sure that there's been people who've been fired out of
Speaker 1: bands who felt motivated by like wanting to do better
Speaker 1: than the people that fired them, but they don't usually
Speaker 1: talk about it, you know, they them. Yeah, like mss Stain,
Speaker 1: I'm sure he was sick of being asked about Matauko
Speaker 1: all the time, but he also welcomed those questions by
Speaker 1: the way he acted. You know, it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: if you're this crazy person who's obsessed with this one thing,
Speaker 1: people are going to ask you about that one thing
Speaker 1: every time they interview you. I mean, it's just the
Speaker 1: natural thing to talk about. And you know, his relationship
Speaker 1: even when he was getting Megadeth off the ground in
Speaker 1: the mid eighties, but Metallica, I mean there was a
Speaker 1: certain still emotional closeness there. Like when Cliff Burton died
Speaker 1: in the bus crash in six but Dame reportedly cried
Speaker 1: for days. It was just absolutely shattered and laws would
Speaker 1: say that around the same time, he and Dave were
Speaker 1: still close, and he said really nice things about Peace Cells.
Speaker 1: He said that the album blew me away and became
Speaker 1: my favorite record for a long time, and that whenever
Speaker 1: Megadeth came through San Francisco, he and Lars would find
Speaker 1: each other and go drink and do a ton of
Speaker 1: drugs and sit around, and so you know, he would
Speaker 1: say that. Apparently Metallica even played Dave in advanced pressing
Speaker 1: of Justice for All and invited into their shows. So
Speaker 1: it's strange to believe. I mean, maybe it was a
Speaker 1: case of like keep your friends close for your enemies closer.
Speaker 1: I don't know, or maybe it was still him desperately
Speaker 1: trying to maybe ingratiate his way back into the band.
Speaker 1: Who knows, but there was a case of in I
Speaker 1: think when Megadeth played the Monsters of Rock Festival, uh,
Speaker 1: Lars actually came out and helped him with an encore
Speaker 1: did a cover of Anarchy in the k together. So yeah,
Speaker 1: there was a closest there, despite all of Mustain's rage
Speaker 1: at that period. We're gonna take a quick break to
Speaker 1: get a word from our sponsor before we get to
Speaker 1: more rivals. Yeah, I mean I think Lars would later
Speaker 1: say that, like he blamed the press essentially for playing
Speaker 1: this up and driving a wedge between the two bands.
Speaker 1: But the thing that he would leave out is that
Speaker 1: the press was running with quotes that Dave Mustain would
Speaker 1: give them. You know. It's like like he I don't
Speaker 1: like question that he was actually close with Lars Ulric
Speaker 1: at this time, but it just seems like publicly he
Speaker 1: would go out of his way often to say bad
Speaker 1: things about Metallica, and that you know, the reverse wasn't true,
Speaker 1: Like Metallica really did not say anything bad about Megadeth
Speaker 1: of course, because they were the bigger band, they weren't
Speaker 1: as threatened by Mega Death. It really does seem like
Speaker 1: it's misstained struggling to get over this, even as like
Speaker 1: by like the early nineties, Megaeth it was like a
Speaker 1: pretty big MTV band themselves, like that record count Down
Speaker 1: to Extinction, you know, spawned like several like like pretty
Speaker 1: famous videos. Uh. And they again, they weren't as big
Speaker 1: as Metallica, but they were still a pretty big band,
Speaker 1: and they actually ended up finally touring together a bit
Speaker 1: intree when Metallica asked Megadeth to open for them. I mean,
Speaker 1: wasn't that the deal? I mean I'm sure like in
Speaker 1: Msstain's mind, they were like yeah, exactly, but they were
Speaker 1: definitely opening for Metallica, right, I mean still they were
Speaker 1: still Metallica. Yeah. When they finally played together, I mean,
Speaker 1: this was a huge moment for Dave. And he goes
Speaker 1: out onto the stage and he gives this this great speech.
Speaker 1: He said, it's a very historical day. Ten years of
Speaker 1: bullshit is over between Megadeth and Metallica. Lots of cheers.
Speaker 1: There are lots of assholes who said this would never
Speaker 1: ever happen, but I guess we proved them all wrong.
Speaker 1: His big war is over speech. Who are those assholes? David? Like,
Speaker 1: I feel like I think Dave Mustain was like at
Speaker 1: the lead of those assholes saying they would never work.
Speaker 1: There's another story like from this tour that I think
Speaker 1: just speaks to like, you know how awkward this could be,
Speaker 1: Like you know, even if they were friends, that there
Speaker 1: was still like tension that was always going to exist
Speaker 1: between the Stain and the Metallica guys. Like apparently there
Speaker 1: was a show like where Mustain showed up backstage and
Speaker 1: Metallica's dressing room and when he walked in, James Headfield
Speaker 1: like cut up some sugar like it was cocaine, and
Speaker 1: like kind of made a show of like doing it.
Speaker 1: I think it was supposed to be a joke essentially,
Speaker 1: but like mus Stain had like recently overdosed. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't think like Headfield was like deliberately making fun of
Speaker 1: the overdose, unless I'm being too kind of Headfield there.
Speaker 1: I think it was just like a drug joke, but
Speaker 1: like mus Stain took it the wrong way in spite
Speaker 1: of that speech that he gave on stage, I mean
Speaker 1: that tour. I mean I think it was like hard
Speaker 1: on his ego. It was rough. I mean he even
Speaker 1: watch from the wings keeping a really close eye on
Speaker 1: Kirk Hammond and he wasn't impressed. I mean he would say,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it was behind the music. He said,
Speaker 1: I thought, God, Kirk's horrible, and I also thought this
Speaker 1: is supposed to be me, which is just freaky. Years.
Speaker 1: Like I was saying earlier, Dave went out of his
Speaker 1: way to slag off Kirk. He has really never been
Speaker 1: anything other than civil to to Dave in the press,
Speaker 1: and that's probably the most famous quote Dave Game was
Speaker 1: in September two thousand and four. He said, I don't
Speaker 1: really care about Kirk just a lie. He stole my job,
Speaker 1: but at least they got to bang his girlfriend before
Speaker 1: he took my job. How do I taste Kirk? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, I mean Kirkham. It doesn't have
Speaker 1: to say anything about Dave Mistain because he won. You know,
Speaker 1: when you're the person who's in the biggest middle band
Speaker 1: of all time, you know you can just let people
Speaker 1: take shots at you while you're like counting your like
Speaker 1: tens of millions of dollars. But again, it goes back
Speaker 1: to what I was saying earlier, Like Lars Lark would
Speaker 1: always talk about how he felt that the press was
Speaker 1: trying to split Metallica and Megadeth and create drama where
Speaker 1: that wasn't really drama. Like there's this one quote where
Speaker 1: Lars Lark says, you know, there's almost like two relationships
Speaker 1: going here. There was Large and Dave hanging out kind
Speaker 1: of doing their thing on the side, which at times
Speaker 1: was a little odd. You'd go, wait a minute, I'm
Speaker 1: supposed to not like this guy, because that's what's in
Speaker 1: this week's Kerrang, you know, but if you read that
Speaker 1: week's Kerrang, it would probably be Dave Mustain and saying
Speaker 1: something mean about Metallica, and that would continue on and
Speaker 1: on and on, even as you know they go through
Speaker 1: these periods where they're friendly again. I feel like it
Speaker 1: really culminates with the movie Some kind of Monster. Like,
Speaker 1: to me, like the story of that movie is like
Speaker 1: such a great encapsulation of how like, even when you
Speaker 1: know Mustain could make a show of reconciling with the
Speaker 1: guys in Metallica, it would always end up turning in
Speaker 1: a negative direction, you know, in a very suprise to
Speaker 1: come about how he was wronged by Metallica, even though
Speaker 1: it was you know, this was supposed to be a
Speaker 1: move that reconciled the Metallica doing this documentary that came
Speaker 1: out in two thousand four Some kind of Monster, which
Speaker 1: is basically a group therapy sessions that they struggle not
Speaker 1: to break up amid their whole litany of problems, their
Speaker 1: napster lawsuits, Jason Newston's the Parture, James Hetfield, substance abuse issues,
Speaker 1: and just general low morale during the sessions. For it
Speaker 1: would become sane anger and to help them through this,
Speaker 1: the band hires what they call the performance enhancement coach,
Speaker 1: just basically a therapist, and one of the things that
Speaker 1: this person recommends is a really frank discussion with Dave Mustain,
Speaker 1: which ends up going down on September two thousand one,
Speaker 1: so just to heighten the emotional level even more, this
Speaker 1: was two days after nine eleven. Dave is more than
Speaker 1: down to have this discussion with his ex bandmates. He
Speaker 1: even says, I've been waiting for this day for a
Speaker 1: long time, which is very ominous, and the footage in
Speaker 1: the film is incredibly emotionally charged, incredibly hard to watch.
Speaker 1: I mean, just it's I mean, Dave's telling laws that
Speaker 1: getting kicked out of Metallica ruined his life. He said,
Speaker 1: I had nothing, then I had everything, and then I
Speaker 1: had nothing again, which was fine, but then having someone
Speaker 1: stand on my head and keep me in the water,
Speaker 1: that's what he felt like Metallica did. No matter how
Speaker 1: many platinum albums Mega Death would earn, he always lived
Speaker 1: in the shadow the more successful Metallica, and he'sa you know,
Speaker 1: no matter how many years ago, I think it was
Speaker 1: eighteen years earlier, at this point, it still feels like
Speaker 1: yesterday and a getting back to what he said earlier.
Speaker 1: For him, it was really about not being given a
Speaker 1: second chance. That was supposedly what the first thing he
Speaker 1: said when they told him he's out of the band.
Speaker 1: He said, what, no warning, no second chance. There are
Speaker 1: ways to address what was going on with my problem.
Speaker 1: Who I am sober is totally different from who I
Speaker 1: am drunk. We never gave it a try. From his
Speaker 1: point of view, they never really knew the real him,
Speaker 1: sober him in the band, and he was hurt that
Speaker 1: he wasn't able to really to do that, to have
Speaker 1: that opportunity, and this conversation is going on, well, James
Speaker 1: Hetfield is seeking treatment for alcoholism too, so I think
Speaker 1: that made it seem sort of doubly unfair that that
Speaker 1: they're dredging up these horrific moments from his past now
Speaker 1: that he is sober, well, James is treated with this
Speaker 1: level of compassion. Okay, you can stay in the band,
Speaker 1: go get help. But I think that's really something that
Speaker 1: I think Mustange should feel justifiably upset about. You know,
Speaker 1: when I watched that scene, I feel like it's a
Speaker 1: pretty honest and fair depiction of how Dave Mustain feels
Speaker 1: about getting kicked out of Metallica and how I think
Speaker 1: I'll always feel about it. But when Mustain himself saw
Speaker 1: the movie, he got really upset. And I think it's
Speaker 1: because he comes up as looking kind of pathetic in
Speaker 1: the movie, Like he looks like a guy who's still
Speaker 1: hung up on this thing that at that point, it
Speaker 1: happened about twenty years earlier. And again, I think it's
Speaker 1: an honest depiction, but I think maybe he was too
Speaker 1: honest for tape Mustain because he really felt like he
Speaker 1: had been set up. You know. He blamed the fact
Speaker 1: that the scene was filmed, you know, two days after
Speaker 1: nine eleven. He said, like, I was more emotional than
Speaker 1: I would have otherwise been. He also said that, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I talked to Large for three hours, and
Speaker 1: they used five minutes of this conversation. I mean, of
Speaker 1: course they weren't going to use all three hours, dude,
Speaker 1: you know, like they're not gonna use the whole thing.
Speaker 1: But you know, he felt that the that the parts
Speaker 1: that they cut for the film weren't representative in his
Speaker 1: mind of what the conversation was actually like. He said,
Speaker 1: you know, they didn't show the scene where I gave
Speaker 1: it to Lars for how he treated me, and Lars
Speaker 1: ran off to about him crying. You know, they always
Speaker 1: showed me crying, you know. I just think that he
Speaker 1: ultimately felt like weak, that he looked weak in this movie,
Speaker 1: even if again, I think it's an honest depiction. I
Speaker 1: think again, like, as we've discussed in this episode, he's
Speaker 1: never been able to let go of being fired from Metallica,
Speaker 1: and it seems like what he says in the scenes
Speaker 1: that you see in the movie are you know, just
Speaker 1: sort of like this unfiltered expression of the hurt, uh
Speaker 1: and anger that he felt about that. I think they've
Speaker 1: just wanted to be seen as like yelling at Lars
Speaker 1: all work in the movie. I think White wanted to
Speaker 1: be seen as like more of a badass than he
Speaker 1: actually is. Uh So he was very angry about how
Speaker 1: the movie turned out. He actually ended up writing a
Speaker 1: song too about that movie. And if you've heard this song,
Speaker 1: it's on the record The System Has Failed, which is
Speaker 1: not one of the best Mega Death records by the way,
Speaker 1: I'll just throw that out there. Came out in two
Speaker 1: thousand four. The song is called something that I'm Not
Speaker 1: and he doesn't like mention some kind of monster by
Speaker 1: name or Lars all work by name. But there are
Speaker 1: references to one big charade fraud. My favorite reference little baby.
Speaker 1: Uh presumably Lars l Rick is the little baby in
Speaker 1: that situation. So again, this ends up being a thing
Speaker 1: where you watched the movie and you feel like, wow,
Speaker 1: it's amazing that these guys can get together and they
Speaker 1: can be honest emotionally with each other and be vulnerable.
Speaker 1: But from Misdaine, it's just like another betrayal and that's
Speaker 1: how he perceives it, and instead of being able to
Speaker 1: put this behind him, it just exacerbates his feelings of
Speaker 1: betrayal even more. I gotta say I would happily watch
Speaker 1: the director's cut with all three hours of their meeting, Like,
Speaker 1: for real, that's the table, and they should be like
Speaker 1: like like the Blue Ray extra should be like a
Speaker 1: three hour just unedited, you know, thing of Lars and
Speaker 1: Dave going at it, you know, I mean watching it,
Speaker 1: I I thought I didn't think he looked I mean,
Speaker 1: he didn't look like a badass, but I don't think
Speaker 1: he looked weak either. That was a very articulate expression
Speaker 1: of what he had gone through and you know, just
Speaker 1: just of loss. You'd say, you know, all I had
Speaker 1: was you and James. He had dreams together, and I
Speaker 1: sold everything to join that dream and then it ended.
Speaker 1: So I don't really know what he expected, really, I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess other than like, you know, like Laura running
Speaker 1: out of the room crying. Maybe, yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 1: I think that Mustain actually comes up really well in
Speaker 1: the movie. But I guess I'm just speculating that that
Speaker 1: is his problem with it. I wonder if he felt
Speaker 1: that he came off as weak or vulnerable, or as
Speaker 1: like a cry baby or something, and that's why he
Speaker 1: was still against the movie, because otherwise I don't really
Speaker 1: understand his reaction at all. So he makes this big
Speaker 1: stink about the Metallica documentary and Lars gets his revenge.
Speaker 1: In two thousand nine, the Metallica are inducted in the
Speaker 1: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and despite Dave's role
Speaker 1: as a founding member, Laras said that he wasn't going
Speaker 1: to be inducted because he never actually recorded an album
Speaker 1: with the band, and then that that was large justification, said,
Speaker 1: You've got to kind of cap it somewhere. Dave Mustain
Speaker 1: never played on any Metallica records. No disrespect to him,
Speaker 1: but there were half a dozen other people that were
Speaker 1: in the lineup in the early days. We thought the
Speaker 1: fair thing to do would be to include everybody that
Speaker 1: played on a Metallica record. And then he had a
Speaker 1: pretty brutal part shot. Dave Mustain was in the band
Speaker 1: for eleven months, predominantly in two. I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: play it down. I have nothing but respect and admiration
Speaker 1: for his accomplishments since. But there's an implied but he's
Speaker 1: not really he's completely downplaying his influence in Metallica history
Speaker 1: in a way that I think is unfair. You don't you, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I was gonna say, I think he should
Speaker 1: have been inducted. Um. Yeah, he didn't play on the records,
Speaker 1: but like he co wrote some significant songs when he
Speaker 1: was in the band, and I think it's fair to
Speaker 1: say that Kirk Hammond was just imitating what Dave Mustain
Speaker 1: did in the early days. You know, I think Kirk
Speaker 1: Hammon eventually, you know, in the later records he developed
Speaker 1: his own voice, but he was clearly brought in because
Speaker 1: he could replicate what Dave Mustain had done when he
Speaker 1: was in the band to put him on the same
Speaker 1: level as like Ron mcgubney or something. I think it's
Speaker 1: like just yeah, it's blatantly like like untrue, like it's
Speaker 1: mustain had a huge, i think influential role in shaping
Speaker 1: the sound of Metallica earlier, and it would have been
Speaker 1: this incredible sort of you know, peacemaking moment between them all. Instead,
Speaker 1: Dave's just invited to attend the ceremony as a guest,
Speaker 1: which he turned down understandably. He said that he had
Speaker 1: commitments playing a European tour with with Judas Priest. Uh
Speaker 1: that's the official version. He would later say, you know what,
Speaker 1: do you think I'm nuts going to go just sit
Speaker 1: in the audience while you know, they're being inducted, and
Speaker 1: I'm just like, you know, cast out, Like that's masochism
Speaker 1: what he'd say. So, I mean, understandably he didn't show up,
Speaker 1: and he's still you know, grumbling about it in the press,
Speaker 1: and this really makes James Hetfield say, you know what,
Speaker 1: this guy is ridiculous. This is guy He's gotta let
Speaker 1: it go. He gives an interview around the same time
Speaker 1: as the Hall of Fame induction. I mean, Dave's not
Speaker 1: in this band for a reason, he said, and this
Speaker 1: reason is super simple. He was in the band for
Speaker 1: eleven months, and he goes on and on and on
Speaker 1: and on. I don't know any other band on the
Speaker 1: planet that there was a member in the band for
Speaker 1: a short amount of time and they've still got this
Speaker 1: big a chip on his shoulder. It's insane, you know what.
Speaker 1: He's in love and that's fine because we love him back.
Speaker 1: So James Hepfield characterizes as unrequited love on the stands part,
Speaker 1: and I think he's right. I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: how else you really can look at this other than
Speaker 1: you know, Misstain had a girlfriend in the early eighties
Speaker 1: that dumped him, and he hasn't gotten over the girlfriend,
Speaker 1: even though he married somebody else. You know, he's still
Speaker 1: stuck on Metallica and even here. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: he gets dissed over the rock and Roll Hall of
Speaker 1: Fame thing and he can't let it go. He can't
Speaker 1: just like let Metallica do their thing. He has to
Speaker 1: find a way to get revenge, and he does it
Speaker 1: I think in a pretty effective way. You know, as
Speaker 1: petty as this is you have to tip your cap
Speaker 1: to him for the interview that he gives in two
Speaker 1: thousand nine to Rolling Stone, where he tells the magazine
Speaker 1: that there was a rumor in the mid eighties that
Speaker 1: Metallica was going to fire Lars, I guess after the
Speaker 1: Master of Puppets tour, and they didn't because Cliff Burton
Speaker 1: died and if Cliff Burton had lived, then Lars all
Speaker 1: Record had been out of the band. And he actually
Speaker 1: got a supporting witness for this, scott Ian from Anthrax.
Speaker 1: He confirmed that this was a rumor, and then Kirk
Speaker 1: Hammett also said that, like, well, yeah, I think we
Speaker 1: were maybe mad at Lars at some point and maybe
Speaker 1: we said something to somebody it was a bigger deal
Speaker 1: than it actually was. But it's like he didn't deny
Speaker 1: that this was something that was you know, kind of
Speaker 1: floating in the air in the mid eighties. So you know, again,
Speaker 1: it's a super petty thing to bring up, you know,
Speaker 1: like more than twenty years after the fact. But I
Speaker 1: think for misstain, you know, again, someone who's defined by
Speaker 1: you know, how he was fired from Metallica, for him
Speaker 1: to say that, like, well, Lars could have been also
Speaker 1: out of the band if not for you know, this
Speaker 1: terrible tragedy that happened. I mean there must have been
Speaker 1: something I guess like sickly satisfying about that for Dave mistake,
Speaker 1: I'm sure. And also just the show cracks between the
Speaker 1: James Lars duo too, which is, you know, just to
Speaker 1: pit them against one another and and to to refresh
Speaker 1: all those those wounds twenty years later. It was. It
Speaker 1: was a pretty cunning Yeah, agent, a chaos agent, Dave Mustain.
Speaker 1: And again I go back to the James Headfield quote.
Speaker 1: He's right, David stains in the band for eleven months,
Speaker 1: and yet it's like you have your ex in your
Speaker 1: life forever, Like you can't get rid of your ex.
Speaker 1: You know, you're crazy X that haunts you forever. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know they're going to keep, you know, causing havoc,
Speaker 1: you know, decades after the Is this around the same
Speaker 1: time that must writes his memoir to which I'm sure
Speaker 1: is just another opportunity from the event. Is Spleen about
Speaker 1: about Metallica? Yeah, there was that thing about how he
Speaker 1: accused Metallica of ripping off this song that Megadeth recorded
Speaker 1: for the bill and Ted Bogus Journey soundtrack called Go
Speaker 1: to Hell, and there's a there's a passage in that
Speaker 1: song like where Mustain starts doing the Lord's Prayer and
Speaker 1: then you know, soon after that, Metallica of course they
Speaker 1: put on Inner Sandman, which has the now I lave
Speaker 1: me down to sleep passage in the middle of the song.
Speaker 1: So yeah, he accused Metallica of ripping him off, although
Speaker 1: really they all just ripped off the Lord the Lord's Prayer.
Speaker 1: So so the Lord himself is the one who really
Speaker 1: has a case here for chaces pending, cases pending. So
Speaker 1: in spite of all of his sniping, James Heffield finds
Speaker 1: some stuff getting nostalgic around the time of the Rock
Speaker 1: and Roll Hall of Fame induction. He's thinking about all
Speaker 1: the other bands that came up with Metallica and this
Speaker 1: leads in to the Big four shows. The guy it's
Speaker 1: like the massive metal piece accords. You got Metallica, Anthrax,
Speaker 1: Slayer and Megadeth. It was the first time that Megadeth
Speaker 1: of Metallica shared a stage together since that British show
Speaker 1: where where where Dave gave that big speech on stage.
Speaker 1: Uh and Metallica for to their credit made a concerted
Speaker 1: effort to try to ease tension between all the bands
Speaker 1: before the show. They would organize big group dinners beforehand,
Speaker 1: like team building type of stuff, so that everybody could
Speaker 1: hang out. Uh. And the vibe was apparently reportedly really good,
Speaker 1: and all the bands would hug and jam together and
Speaker 1: it was a really positive experience for everybody, UH, particularly Dave,
Speaker 1: who joined Metallica on stage for a group jam on
Speaker 1: Diamond Heads Helpless and Kirk Hammett gives Dave the solo,
Speaker 1: which Dave was really touched by. For him, he said,
Speaker 1: it was kind of a symbolic passing of the torch
Speaker 1: back to me, and it was a nice gesture and
Speaker 1: it really helped relations improved between everybody, and then that
Speaker 1: really was a big moment for him. The only dark
Speaker 1: cloud that appeared on all these Big Four shows that
Speaker 1: went on off and on for about eighteen months was
Speaker 1: right before their show at Yankee Stadium in September, two
Speaker 1: days before Megadeth pulled out of the concert because Damon
Speaker 1: Stain had to undergo surgery for a neck and spine
Speaker 1: condition that he said was due to years of headbanging,
Speaker 1: which I don't know. May Or may not be true.
Speaker 1: And apparently he heard that Metallica's co manager called him
Speaker 1: a quote pussy for not playing the gig. So a
Speaker 1: day before he's about to go into surgery, but potentially
Speaker 1: you know, life saving surgery. According to him, Uh, he
Speaker 1: changed his mind. He flies back to uh New York,
Speaker 1: does the gigg. He's wheeled on the stage and like
Speaker 1: a golf cart or something, and he plays his gig.
Speaker 1: I think I'm like a neck brace or something to
Speaker 1: to sort of like prove it to them. Tallica camp
Speaker 1: that he's got he's got the metal to do this,
Speaker 1: like you know, he said he had signs all over
Speaker 1: the stage and said do not headbang because apparently if
Speaker 1: he did, he was like close to getting paralyzed if
Speaker 1: he did. He also we talked to the press. You
Speaker 1: would say that both James Hetfield and Tom Area from
Speaker 1: Slayer had similar surgeries, and the implication being, yet again,
Speaker 1: my medical issues aren't treated with the same degree of
Speaker 1: compassion and cares there's with alcoholism. If its neck problems,
Speaker 1: some everybody else, they get a path. But with me,
Speaker 1: I'm called a pussy or kicked out of the band
Speaker 1: or something. And I thought that was that was very interesting.
Speaker 1: But for him, the best moment of all these reunion
Speaker 1: shows was the Metallica thirtieth anniversary concert in December twenty eleven.
Speaker 1: They played it in San Francisco at the Film War
Speaker 1: Auditorium and Metallica invited a lot of their former members back.
Speaker 1: One of them was Ron McGovney, and they also got
Speaker 1: miss stand back and Kirk once again let him take
Speaker 1: some solos. And for this was really all that mistake
Speaker 1: ever wanted. He was back for this one night only.
Speaker 1: He was back in Metallica. He was playing lead. This
Speaker 1: was all we'd ever wanted. This was a peak moment
Speaker 1: for him, and of course, as peak moments go with
Speaker 1: Dave Mustain, it was downhill after this. Yeah, I just
Speaker 1: I think you really have to again do a shout
Speaker 1: out to Kirk Hammett, Like, how cool is Kirk Hammett
Speaker 1: that like he let Dave Mustain do this again. This
Speaker 1: guy who is like Mustain is dissed Hammett for years.
Speaker 1: You know, Hammont could very easily like play the diva
Speaker 1: card and not allow Mustain even on the same stage
Speaker 1: with him, much less to take over the solos. But again,
Speaker 1: I think it speaks to have magnanimous. Hammett was, although
Speaker 1: I think, you know, bringing misstain back in the band.
Speaker 1: It just again it seems like the guy who is
Speaker 1: obsessed with the girlfriend. The girlfriend maybe offers to like
Speaker 1: go out to dinner with the guy, and then the
Speaker 1: guy thinks that they're gonna get back together because it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: finally I have a chance to get back into the fold.
Speaker 1: Because after these concerts, Mustain starts talking about a Metallica
Speaker 1: Megadeth super like he floats this idea into the media,
Speaker 1: which is never gonna happen. Well, why would Metallica do this.
Speaker 1: Metallica very strong brand, they could tour on their own.
Speaker 1: They don't need Dave Mustain. Mustain probably needs Metallica more
Speaker 1: than than vice versa. And he starts talking about this
Speaker 1: in the press. Mustain does like it's gonna happen, and
Speaker 1: of course it's up to the guys of Metallica to
Speaker 1: pump the brakes on this. And and James Hetfield as
Speaker 1: I think a pretty great quotehere he says, this is
Speaker 1: the day that we kind of wanted to forget about,
Speaker 1: you know, the big mouth that just wants to go,
Speaker 1: go go, and again, like you know, he says that,
Speaker 1: but then he couches it in like you know, affection
Speaker 1: for misstain. Ultimately, he says, you know, there's an authenticity
Speaker 1: about him when he speaks. He doesn't think too much
Speaker 1: before he does. He just goes off the cuff. And
Speaker 1: he said, that's kind of endearing, but also it creates
Speaker 1: problems for us because he says these things and then
Speaker 1: we have to answer for them. And then Dave's answer,
Speaker 1: I think again, it just speaks to the passive aggress
Speaker 1: that is inherent in this relationship. He says, I guess
Speaker 1: my whole thing was that I wanted them to know
Speaker 1: that I loved them and that I missed them and
Speaker 1: I enjoyed playing with them. If that's not mutual, then
Speaker 1: I understand I still respect him and I still care
Speaker 1: about the guy. If he doesn't want to play with
Speaker 1: me anymore, that's cool. Of course, it's not cool. We
Speaker 1: all know it's not cool with him, and the whole
Speaker 1: thing of like, well, I just wanted them to know
Speaker 1: that I love them. But if they don't love me back,
Speaker 1: you know, poor me, you know, going right back to
Speaker 1: the self pity thing, you know, it just shows, like
Speaker 1: I guess, like the vicious cycle that was in play
Speaker 1: with these bands at this time. But even with this
Speaker 1: vicious cycle, you know, and like all of the negative
Speaker 1: mojo that's come mainly from Dave Mustain, you still get
Speaker 1: the sense that there is like a friendship here. Like
Speaker 1: as maddening as Mustain is, I think in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways, it seems like there is like the affection
Speaker 1: that you would have for anyone that you've like lived
Speaker 1: very intense periods of your life with, like if you
Speaker 1: were in a war or something, like you're always going
Speaker 1: to be friends with your war buddies, you know. And
Speaker 1: I think there's like a similar thing with Metallic and
Speaker 1: Mega Death, where you know, as mad ning as Mustain
Speaker 1: is going to be, it's like James and Lars, They're
Speaker 1: always going to have a place in their heart, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And you see that with with Mustain's recent cancer diagnosis,
Speaker 1: I mean, which is really brutal him. He's been given
Speaker 1: it everything he's got. I think he's had like fifty
Speaker 1: one radiation treatments and nine chemo treatments or something, and
Speaker 1: he was touched when James Headfield reached out, he said,
Speaker 1: I got a text from my old brother James Hetfield
Speaker 1: and I was so so happy to hear from him.
Speaker 1: Contrary to what anybody says, and contrary to any of
Speaker 1: the act that we put on. I love James and
Speaker 1: I know that James loves me and cares about me.
Speaker 1: You can see that when the moment of truth is
Speaker 1: here and I'm telling the world that I've got a
Speaker 1: life threatening disease, who comes to stand next to me? James?
Speaker 1: And I think it seems like Dave Mustain is doing
Speaker 1: better now, like with his with his cancer treatment, So
Speaker 1: that's great news. I really look forward to the day
Speaker 1: when all these guys are in wheelchairs and they're still
Speaker 1: saying terrible things about each other's guitar solos. You know,
Speaker 1: that's something I hope really comes into play in the future.
Speaker 1: All right, hand, we'll be right back with more rivals.
Speaker 1: We've now reached the part of the episode where we
Speaker 1: give the pro side of each part of the rivalry.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Metallica first. I mean, look, they're the
Speaker 1: most popular metal band of all time. While Dave Mustain
Speaker 1: was a crucial member early on, there's no question that
Speaker 1: Mattall because most popular music was made without him. Uh,
Speaker 1: they ultimately didn't need Dave Mustain, and they were probably
Speaker 1: happier for having kicked into the curb. You know, as
Speaker 1: as traumatic as that was, probably in the moment, it
Speaker 1: just seems like for being able to live inside of
Speaker 1: this band, it was just gonna go a lot smoother
Speaker 1: getting rid of Dave Mustain and bringing in you know, Mellow,
Speaker 1: Happy Go Lucky, Kirk Hammet And you know, Metallica is
Speaker 1: still a band today. They're still playing huge shows, putting
Speaker 1: out you know, very successful records, and um, I'm sure
Speaker 1: that's why. I mean, I think if Mustain had stayed
Speaker 1: in the band, they probably would have imploded back in
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. Yeah, I mean, like you said earlier,
Speaker 1: the ultimate argument ender is essentially their Metallica and the
Speaker 1: biggest selling metal band of all time, when the most
Speaker 1: influential bands period in history. They set the template for
Speaker 1: what a heavy metal band is supposed to look like
Speaker 1: and sound like. I think, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: And I think that although they didn't always keep a
Speaker 1: consistent sound, I think their highs are you know, without question,
Speaker 1: higher than than uh than Megadeth and the Black Album Ride,
Speaker 1: The Lightning, Master of Puppets, Justice for All, It's the
Speaker 1: foundation of modern metal. And you know, plus this is crucial.
Speaker 1: They don't have Dave Mustains singing hell old me. I
Speaker 1: like Dave Mustain's voice. I think it's pretty cool voice.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, they definitely not only survived without Mistain,
Speaker 1: but they thrived without the amustained. But going to the
Speaker 1: pro Megadas side, you know, I don't think you can
Speaker 1: really underestimate how difficult it was for Mustain to form
Speaker 1: a new band and really become like not as successful
Speaker 1: in Metallica, but like more successful than like metal bands ever.
Speaker 1: I mean I brought up this analogy earlier, but like,
Speaker 1: imagine if Pete Best after he was fired from the
Speaker 1: Beatles had like formed the Kinks or the who you know,
Speaker 1: or another like prominent British rock band, not as big
Speaker 1: as the Beatles, but still very successful. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: essentially what Dave Mustain did with Megadeth. And yes he's
Speaker 1: very petty, and yes he hasn't been able to get
Speaker 1: over getting kicked out out of Metallica, but like, maybe
Speaker 1: pettiness is good for your career sometimes his goal well yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: if if your goal was to get revenge on Metallica
Speaker 1: and this sort of all consuming hatred is what is
Speaker 1: driving you in your career. I mean, it propelled Megadeth
Speaker 1: to like millions in record sales and into playing big concerts.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe it also caused Mustain to get sick
Speaker 1: later in his life, because you can't carry around that
Speaker 1: much bile, I think, and have a healthy life ultimately.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think what Mustain was able to do.
Speaker 1: You know, he was put in a pretty big hole
Speaker 1: when he was fired, and he dug his way out
Speaker 1: of it. And here we are, you know, almost forty
Speaker 1: years after he was fired, and Mustain and Megadeth are
Speaker 1: still going strong and you know, more power to them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean a lot of the pro Megadeth
Speaker 1: arguments always seem to have this like air of country
Speaker 1: rarian is um. And my heart goes out to Dave
Speaker 1: Mustain just because, you know, as he said, I think
Speaker 1: he said it in some kind of monster. People hate
Speaker 1: him purely be virtue the fact that he's not in Metallica,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, he's beating himself up about this
Speaker 1: truth over the years. He doesn't need legions of other
Speaker 1: metal heads gang up on him too. And you know,
Speaker 1: all the Metallica obviously had much higher highs. I think
Speaker 1: Megadeth had a really great consistent career, especially in the nineties,
Speaker 1: when you know, you could argue that Megadeth in the
Speaker 1: nineties with Rust in Peace, Countdown, New Extinction in euthan
Speaker 1: Asia gave Metallica's run nineties run and run for their money.
Speaker 1: I think that they're way more productive than Metallica in
Speaker 1: recent years. And for all of Dave's shortcomings as a vocalist,
Speaker 1: I think that his songs tend to have more complexity
Speaker 1: to him, more complex riffs and uh, you know, let's
Speaker 1: not forget he co wrote some of Metallica's best early
Speaker 1: songs too, and um and also this is crucial he
Speaker 1: didn't team up with lou Reid for Lulu Oh. I
Speaker 1: don't like that Lulu shape. I had to come up
Speaker 1: at some point. That's what a Metallica's greatest achievements. And
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to my grave arguing that. Now looking
Speaker 1: at Metallica and Megadet together, I mean, look, this feud
Speaker 1: is like one of the best in metal history, and
Speaker 1: us hosting a feuds podcast, we love that sort of thing,
Speaker 1: so we're glad that exists. And really, I mean we
Speaker 1: all came out ahead. I think it was inevitable that,
Speaker 1: you know, even if the Stained were like an angel
Speaker 1: and didn't have a drinking problem and wasn't belligerent, he
Speaker 1: eventually would have left Metallica because he had his own
Speaker 1: strong artistic vision. And instead of having one world class
Speaker 1: metal band, we now have two world class metal bands.
Speaker 1: So I feel like as headbangers out there, we all
Speaker 1: came out ahead because these guys only this is one
Speaker 1: of the greatest examples of you can enjoy both in rock.
Speaker 1: You get too awesome thrash metal bands for the price
Speaker 1: of wine, and that's something that should be celebrated. Now,
Speaker 1: Ice Field, Jordan's that you know now that we're at
Speaker 1: the end of another episode that when it comes to
Speaker 1: uh talking about rivalries, nothing else matters in my life,
Speaker 1: or should I say nothing matters? Excellent pun We fade
Speaker 1: to black. Yes, So thank you for listening to this
Speaker 1: episode of Rivals. We'll be back with more beefs and
Speaker 1: feuds and long simming resentments next week. Rivals is a
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Shawn
Speaker 1: Tytone and Noel Brown. Supervising producers are Taylor chicogn and
Speaker 1: Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel hat Stat. I'm Jordan's
Speaker 1: Runt Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what
Speaker 1: you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review. For
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