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Speaker 2: This is the Bloomberg Daybreak Asia podcast. I'm Doug Krisner.
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Speaker 3: Joining us now is Peter Elstrom, Bloomberg Executive Editor for
Speaker 3: Asia Technology. To take a look at the chip story
Speaker 3: right across the globe here, Peter, thanks very much. We've
Speaker 3: talked quite a bit this morning about the US possibly
Speaker 3: putting CXMT on the entity list, and we'll also we've
Speaker 3: talked a little bit about the chip fund that China
Speaker 3: has put together twenty seven billion dollars, not so much
Speaker 3: about TSMC, so we can talk about all three. But
Speaker 3: TSMC set to win something like around five billion dollars
Speaker 3: in grant for the US chip plant. This is part
Speaker 3: of a big reshoring story by the Biden administration. If
Speaker 3: we just take a step back, how is that overall
Speaker 3: reshoring going in your view?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you're exactly right. There is a huge chip
Speaker 4: war going on. Specifically between the United States and China,
Speaker 4: but more broadly than that, there are other countries involved
Speaker 4: in trying to build their own domestic chip industries too,
Speaker 4: and this dates back to really a couple of different things.
Speaker 4: During the COVID pandemic, there were disruptions to the supply
Speaker 4: chain that created all sorts of problems for the automotive industry,
Speaker 4: in particular where they couldn't get enough chips. And beyond that,
Speaker 4: there's some security concerns because right now most of the
Speaker 4: advanced chips in the world are made in Taiwan, followed
Speaker 4: by South Korea. So the United States, Japan, Europe, and
Speaker 4: China all are trying to build up their domestic chip industries.
Speaker 4: At this point, the US has been off to a
Speaker 4: pretty slow start in terms of making that happen. They,
Speaker 4: of course, the Biden administration unveiled the Chips Act. That's
Speaker 4: an effort to subsidize some of these efforts with billions
Speaker 4: and billions of dollars. What we're hearing about now is
Speaker 4: that the Biden administration is making some progress. They're getting
Speaker 4: close to being able to award some of the really
Speaker 4: big numbers to the leading chip companies in the world.
Speaker 4: So TSMC is the producer of the most advanced chips
Speaker 4: in the world to make them for Apple and for Nvidia.
Speaker 4: They've been talking about building this fab in the US
Speaker 4: and now what we're hearing from our sources is that
Speaker 4: they could get more than five billion dollars to subsidize that.
Speaker 4: That's a lot of money, obviously, but it comes as
Speaker 4: they plan on investing about forty billion dollars into two
Speaker 4: chip fabs in Arizona to help them build more advanced
Speaker 4: chips within the United States, which, as you're saying, that's
Speaker 4: part of this on shoring effort by the United States
Speaker 4: to make sure that it does have a steady supply
Speaker 4: of these semiconductors that are so important for the economy.
Speaker 2: It's a fascinating story when you think back fifty years
Speaker 2: ago that American chip makers were actually offshoring a lot
Speaker 2: of production. I think Hong Kong initially was a big beneficiary.
Speaker 2: Then it migrated to Japan, I think before Taiwan. But
Speaker 2: if you look at the runway that's necessary, the period
Speaker 2: of time that has to take place in order for
Speaker 2: the initial investment to happen construction, you need to get
Speaker 2: a very experienced labor force at work here. I mean,
Speaker 2: what is it going to take two years before these
Speaker 2: plants are fully operational.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting to see some of the contrasts here.
Speaker 4: In Japan. The Japanese government has also been trying to
Speaker 4: build up its domestic chip industry, and the speed with
Speaker 4: which they've moved is sort of startling compared to the
Speaker 4: United States in particular. So TSMC, again, the leading chip
Speaker 4: producer in the world, has built most of its fabs
Speaker 4: in Taiwan. In the past, it has agreed to build
Speaker 4: in Japan and in the United States. In Japan, it
Speaker 4: had an opening ceremony for its first fab. Here, they're
Speaker 4: very far along. They were able to team up with
Speaker 4: a domestic construction company called Kajema that moved very very quickly.
Speaker 4: They hired seven thousand workers very quickly. In the United
Speaker 4: States is almost the opposite. TSMC has already announced two
Speaker 4: delays in their plans in Arizona. They've had problems with
Speaker 4: unions there. The US government hasn't been quick to write
Speaker 4: those checks to make sure that the money is getting out,
Speaker 4: so that's really slowed down the process in the US.
Speaker 4: TSMC has talked about this about some of the problems,
Speaker 4: but it's happening very very slowly there.
Speaker 3: And one of the other stories that I mentioned briefly
Speaker 3: was China ready and another twenty seven billion dollars for
Speaker 3: a chip fund that they'll call the Big Fund, And
Speaker 3: we're curious about exactly where this money goes and also
Speaker 3: how far behind is China in trying to get to
Speaker 3: the advanced production levels that we see in Taiwan that
Speaker 3: you've talked about and that Intel has aspired to for
Speaker 3: all these years.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, China is really being driven by necessity at
Speaker 4: this point. The US government has levied a number of
Speaker 4: different restrictions on their technology companies and their ability to
Speaker 4: get chips. In particular, a couple of years ago, the
Speaker 4: Biden administration imposed a whole series of curbs on their
Speaker 4: ability to buy AI artificial intelligence chips, as well as
Speaker 4: chip making equipment to make the most advanced chips. So
Speaker 4: what you're seeing in China right now is an all
Speaker 4: out effort to try to build the foundation of an
Speaker 4: industry that they can develop over the next few years.
Speaker 4: As you mentioned, they're now looking to raise about twenty
Speaker 4: seven billion dollars for a chip fund that will invest
Speaker 4: in chip startups and chip companies. The formal name is
Speaker 4: National Integrated Circuit Industry Investment Fund. People in China just
Speaker 4: call the big fund they've had. This is their third fund.
Speaker 4: They've invested in a bunch of startups there, but they've
Speaker 4: had a number of problems. I mean, one, they're trying
Speaker 4: to imitate technology that already the Western companies have spent
Speaker 4: a lot of time developing, have very very advanced equipment,
Speaker 4: and there have been some corruption problems within the big
Speaker 4: for the previous big funds also, which have slowed down
Speaker 4: their efforts to build up the domestic chip industry.
Speaker 2: Peter, it's always a pleasure. Yeah, good stuff. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much for being with us. Peter Elstrom from Bloomberg News.
Speaker 3: Well, let's get to our guest, Stephanie lyng CIO. It's
Speaker 3: stashaway for a closer look at markets. So we've had
Speaker 3: a week of NPC meetings and we're kind of trying
Speaker 3: to weigh that up and see whether or not it's
Speaker 3: positive for markets or not. Your thoughts at this stage, Stephanie.
Speaker 5: Yes, good morning.
Speaker 6: Indeed, we had the NPC was just quite anticipated, and
Speaker 6: I mean we were all looking for kind of big
Speaker 6: numbers coming out from me event. I think mostly if
Speaker 6: I look kind of GDP targets, inflation targets, everything seems
Speaker 6: to be quite in line with market expectations or our expectations.
Speaker 6: For example, on a GDP growth of five percent, inflation
Speaker 6: of three percent, that's kind of more or less kind
Speaker 6: of in line with historical presidents and also what we're
Speaker 6: looking for. However, I think the key question really for
Speaker 6: markets and for investors now is that how are they
Speaker 6: going to achieve these targets, and whether or not they
Speaker 6: can actually achieve these targets by the end of the
Speaker 6: year when the next NPC actually comes. I think mostly
Speaker 6: the concern is on the inflation site, and if you
Speaker 6: remember last year they also had a three percent inflation target,
Speaker 6: they the economy of the government actually was not able
Speaker 6: to achieve that.
Speaker 5: And for the past year, I think.
Speaker 6: While the world or most developed markets are kind of
Speaker 6: concerned about inflation, China is actually on a deflation concern
Speaker 6: and I think if you look at PPI and CPI,
Speaker 6: these have been negative quite some time. Of course, we
Speaker 6: just get the latest CPI which is positive, which is
Speaker 6: a great kind of development, but PPI still seems to
Speaker 6: be quite negative.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the longest streak of deflation that we've
Speaker 2: seen at the wholesale level since about twenty sixteen. Do
Speaker 2: you think that the economy generally speaking, I hear what
Speaker 2: you're saying about the growth target right around five percent,
Speaker 2: maybe or you're doubtful that the government will achieve that.
Speaker 2: But can you dispute the fact that there seems to
Speaker 2: be this economic malaise threatening the overall economy.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's of course, it's partly structural with
Speaker 6: kind of the clamp down or the property sector, which
Speaker 6: has been a great driver of the economy in the
Speaker 6: last two decades or so, but partially the kind of
Speaker 6: economic downturn is cyclical as well. Right, if we look
Speaker 6: at the global manufacturing indexes or the global manufacturing sector,
Speaker 6: I mean those actually have been in a downturn for
Speaker 6: the last kind of talk to eighteen months. We're starting
Speaker 6: to see some signs of turning points. If you look
Speaker 6: at the latest kind of PMI, manufacturing in vaccines coming
Speaker 6: out from the US or even on a global basis,
Speaker 6: I mean these have been turning around and are positive now.
Speaker 6: So I mean that actually is a positive development for China.
Speaker 6: Economy because a significant part of China is still supported
Speaker 6: by exports.
Speaker 3: Stephanie, are we maybe overplaying the slow down and downturn
Speaker 3: in China anecdotally? Just talking to people coming back from
Speaker 3: shen Zen Go for you know a lot of Hong
Speaker 3: Kong people go for day trips and they talk about,
Speaker 3: you know, the malls are booming that you know, the
Speaker 3: buzz is there, people are out, the restaurants are packed.
Speaker 3: You can't get into this restaurant because it's too full.
Speaker 3: You know. It's a slightly different story that we see
Speaker 3: from the big macro numbers, and I wonder how you
Speaker 3: make sense of that.
Speaker 6: Yes, indeed, I think it's a bit of a two
Speaker 6: speed economy. Right if you look at the consumer data,
Speaker 6: they have actually been been quite good. Right. It's if
Speaker 6: if you look at, for example, the service PMI, it
Speaker 6: has been an expansion while the manufacturing side has been
Speaker 6: in a slump. So similar things are going on globally
Speaker 6: as well. Right if you look at the US, I mean,
Speaker 6: sut side of things are actually very very strong, while
Speaker 6: manufacturing is also in a slump. So I think it's
Speaker 6: not just just a China problem. But of course for
Speaker 6: China because it's still heavily reliant on the manufacturing side,
Speaker 6: heavily reliant on export, heavily reliant on investment rather than consumption,
Speaker 6: which is the case in the US.
Speaker 5: Therefore, I think if you look at kind of.
Speaker 6: The overall economy, just the weight of things makes China
Speaker 6: kind of I think, makes China's economy more formal vulnerable
Speaker 6: to a global manufacturing slump.
Speaker 2: So would you be putting money to work in markets
Speaker 2: in China right now?
Speaker 6: I think, I mean, it's definitely looking more interesting compared
Speaker 6: with last year.
Speaker 5: For example.
Speaker 6: Of course, everybody knows that China is very, very cheap
Speaker 6: right in terms of valuation. The problem is the lack
Speaker 6: of a catalyst for economic upturn. I think Number one,
Speaker 6: the government has been trying to stimulate the economy from
Speaker 6: a kind of monetary fiscal perspective. Now, of course, there's
Speaker 6: a question of how much is enough. And I think
Speaker 6: if you look at kind of historical examples the Chinese government,
Speaker 6: once they start kind of injecting liquidity you want to
Speaker 6: start stimulating, They're not going to stop until the economy
Speaker 6: actually turns around. So I think also if you look
Speaker 6: at kind of the ability for the Chinese government to stimulate.
Speaker 6: There is still potential. So I think the key is
Speaker 6: still coming back to the global economy, whether or not
Speaker 6: we see in recovery. And I think there are early
Speaker 6: signs that we are seeing part of that.
Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, Now, if we see some money come out
Speaker 3: of the Japanese and in US markets, you know, which
Speaker 3: some people think is inevitable given the highs that we've seen,
Speaker 3: some of that money might go into China. But the
Speaker 3: thing is that you hear kind of a downbeat picture
Speaker 3: from investors about policy in China. They don't believe that
Speaker 3: the policy is there to drive the private sector higher
Speaker 3: over the coming years. Is the jury still out on that?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 6: I think the problem is that I guess once you
Speaker 6: I guess once the confidence is diminished, is very very
Speaker 6: hard to bring that back, right, And a lot of
Speaker 6: these corporates are making decisions not on a kind of
Speaker 6: one or two year basis, right, They're making decisions on
Speaker 6: a ten year or even kind of much longer term basis.
Speaker 6: And those investments are indeed, I very hard to bring back.
Speaker 6: But if we look at kind of the market itself,
Speaker 6: I mean investments money you are fast money globally are
Speaker 6: much shorter term.
Speaker 5: They're much kind of faster to react.
Speaker 6: And I mentioned about kind of the cyclical problems and
Speaker 6: the structural problems of China. I think if you have
Speaker 6: the cyclical problems easing, there's still kind of a lot
Speaker 6: of room for the market to improve, right given that
Speaker 6: valuations are very cheap. So I do think that there
Speaker 6: could be a kind of cyclic op turn.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 6: Of course, we're in the structural issues to resolve, and
Speaker 6: for a structural kind of tenure bull market to start
Speaker 6: that the hurdle is actually a lot higher.
Speaker 2: So we have two stories that are kind of interesting
Speaker 2: today and they clash in a way. One is the
Speaker 2: Biden administration wing some new sanctions on a few Chinese
Speaker 2: tech companies, particularly within the realm of semiconductors. That's not new.
Speaker 2: We know the administration has been focused on restraining China's
Speaker 2: development on that front. At the same time, though, China
Speaker 2: seems to be raising a lot more in the way
Speaker 2: of capital to fund a chip fund that would essentially
Speaker 2: be used for R and D purposes. Is it possible
Speaker 2: for China to compensate for what is being withheld from
Speaker 2: Western technology companies.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that's kind of a tug of war
Speaker 6: between US and China that's kind of started or accelerated
Speaker 6: a few years ago. And I think this is one
Speaker 6: of the structural problems that it's it's very, very hot
Speaker 6: to see things reverting back to where it was, particularly
Speaker 6: with the kind of the development chips and technology. Every
Speaker 6: country or every kind of major power will try to
Speaker 6: secure their own technology stack, and I mean China and
Speaker 6: the US is no different. So I think, of course,
Speaker 6: the US has the election this year, and the China
Speaker 6: issue is top of concern or kind of like top
Speaker 6: of a lot of kind of I.
Speaker 3: Guess everybody wants to China.
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, everybody wants to play that card.
Speaker 6: And I think if let's say, if Trump gets kind
Speaker 6: of into the office, there could be even more acceleration
Speaker 6: in terms of the rhetoric or action against China.
Speaker 5: So that is one big risk.
Speaker 6: I think in terms of China's own development, it's they
Speaker 6: will try to invest a lot, but I mean from
Speaker 6: a technology point of view, there's still kind of several
Speaker 6: years behind, and I think China will actually invest a
Speaker 6: lot more into not probably not the top end, but
Speaker 6: still if you look at kind of ship like where
Speaker 6: chips are used, right, A lot of the chips are
Speaker 6: used in auto, A lot of chips are used actually
Speaker 6: in electronic vehicles. I mean those are areas actually where
Speaker 6: China can excel. So I think that's where a lot
Speaker 6: of investment will.
Speaker 3: Grow, all right, Stephanie, Unfortunately out of time, I did
Speaker 3: want to get your view on Japan whether or not
Speaker 3: you're using a pogo stick to jump higher from forty
Speaker 3: thousand or a bungee cord to pro blower levels, but
Speaker 3: we'll save that for the next discussion. We love to
Speaker 3: have you on the program, Thanks very much, Stephanie. Lung
Speaker 3: there Cio, it's stash Away. Joining us on the line
Speaker 3: for this next segment is Joy Young, head of product
Speaker 3: management Market Vector Indexes. So, Joy, how do you feel
Speaker 3: with markets at these levels? Here? We had a little
Speaker 3: bit of a spooky day on Friday on Wall Street.
Speaker 1: Your thoughts, Yeah, thank you. We had a very exciting
Speaker 1: week last week with you know, several assets heading there
Speaker 1: all time high, and I don't know if people still
Speaker 1: remember we started Monday with Nvidia, you know, just with
Speaker 1: great earnings announcement joining the two trillion dollar club, and
Speaker 1: then we saw it pushing the SMP up and it's
Speaker 1: not just the mag seven because we're seeing the equal
Speaker 1: weighted as and P five hundred also hitting their all
Speaker 1: time high. So yeah, they were going up, and then
Speaker 1: it's not unexpected to see when we have these price
Speaker 1: momentum that we're going to see some pullback in correction.
Speaker 1: So that's what we see on you know, what we
Speaker 1: saw on Friday. But you know, we're also seeing that
Speaker 1: this all time high is spreading globally. You know, we
Speaker 1: mentioned at the beginning of the program that you know,
Speaker 1: Japanese markets are hitting their all time high, so you know,
Speaker 1: we're seeing that, you know, there's now a signaling to
Speaker 1: the potential end of the Bank of Japan and their
Speaker 1: negative interest rate policy. In this in turn, we're seeing
Speaker 1: the unraveling of the very popular carry trade, which is
Speaker 1: now impacting the dollar. So with dollar a week, we're
Speaker 1: seeing gold prices also breaking out of their range and
Speaker 1: hitting their all time highs.
Speaker 2: So with the record highs that we've been talking about
Speaker 2: or you just highlighted in terms of equity trading, I'm
Speaker 2: going to add to that list a bitcoin, which I
Speaker 2: think broke above seventy grand for the first time last week.
Speaker 2: And to kind of dovetail with the point you just
Speaker 2: made there about the BOJ perhaps doing away with negative
Speaker 2: rates here sometime soon, I doubt. I don't know, maybe
Speaker 2: it's March, maybe it's April. But the question is one
Speaker 2: of excess liquidity. Do we still have a certain level
Speaker 2: of excess liquidity and global markets.
Speaker 1: I think there is that people are careful on where
Speaker 1: they're investing it. So I think, you know, we're seeing
Speaker 1: this all time high and it's actually quite unusual to
Speaker 1: see both risk on and risk off assets moving in
Speaker 1: the same direction with so much uncertainty and quite a
Speaker 1: lot of risk.
Speaker 5: Still out there.
Speaker 1: And you know, we know traditionally gold is a defensive
Speaker 1: asset and it goes up when things are looking down.
Speaker 1: But the equity markets are saying that the economy is
Speaker 1: still looking pretty strong. So we also have like bitcoin
Speaker 1: going up, as you know, a very volatile asset class,
Speaker 1: and we're seeing that based on the trigger of there's
Speaker 1: a lot of investors trying to, you know, allocate the
Speaker 1: money into something that isn't correlated with other asset classes
Speaker 1: because they just don't know where things may end up
Speaker 1: in the next few months.
Speaker 3: You mentioned Japan and I had a question for you.
Speaker 3: I put a question earlier to a guest saying, you know,
Speaker 3: if you do get a change in Boja policy, you're
Speaker 3: going to probably see as stronger yin and that might
Speaker 3: not be good for the stock market. But the flip
Speaker 3: side of that, which I also I also think is
Speaker 3: kind of interesting, is that you're going to get repatriation
Speaker 3: of Japanese assets abroad, and as that comes back in,
Speaker 3: you know, it's going to have to go somewhere. Does
Speaker 3: it go into the bond market there or does it
Speaker 3: go into the stock market.
Speaker 1: I would think probably the stock market is looking pretty
Speaker 1: good right now for Japan as well as emerging markets
Speaker 1: in Asia, because they seem to have been undervalued given
Speaker 1: the rest of global markets. So there are a lot
Speaker 1: of opportunities, and maybe they will be thinking about how
Speaker 1: to hedge the dollar and you know where they can
Speaker 1: put it without being exposed to dollar.
Speaker 2: So here's a question for you. We've been pondering this
Speaker 2: on the program today. Are there similarities between what we
Speaker 2: had in the equity market in the late nineteen nineties,
Speaker 2: what many have called the dot com bubble, and what
Speaker 2: we're seeing right now, particularly in tech that's related to
Speaker 2: the AI trade.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, looking at the data, you can always
Speaker 1: draw similarities, but we don't know what's going to happen next.
Speaker 1: I think, I think, yeah, A lot of people have
Speaker 1: kind of called the similar similarity between Nvidia and you know, Cisco, right,
Speaker 1: because these are like basically when you see some disruptive
Speaker 1: tech take off, what you're seeing is first the money
Speaker 1: piles in and the growth starts happening in the underlying infrastructure.
Speaker 1: But you know, then you'll see, like some domin net players,
Speaker 1: they will be competed away. Other players will come in
Speaker 1: and try to eat away at that profit. And you know,
Speaker 1: Nvidia has a strong mote, but we're seeing like competitors.
Speaker 1: In fact, some of their clients, like Microsoft, Amazon, they're
Speaker 1: also building their own design hardware into AI so that
Speaker 1: they're not relying on just Nvidia. So as that, you know,
Speaker 1: as we see the shift from kind of these infrastructure players,
Speaker 1: you know, to adopters, you know, these are the players
Speaker 1: that are going to be using the AI and that's
Speaker 1: where the growth will also start to happen. So you
Speaker 1: have to think about the life cycle of the thing
Speaker 1: as well as you know, diversifying your bets on which
Speaker 1: player is going to take off.
Speaker 3: So Joy, could I at least get you to say that,
Speaker 3: you know, we've got overblock conditions there, maybe not exactly
Speaker 3: a bubble, but but over block conditions, and that some
Speaker 3: sort of correction is nigh.
Speaker 1: Well. I mean, I truly think AI is, you know,
Speaker 1: really has the potential to deliver something really innovative and productive.
Speaker 1: But not every company is going to participate in it.
Speaker 1: So some people will overvalue some of these players, and
Speaker 1: you know, that may be a bubble, but I think
Speaker 1: over the long term we will see a trend to
Speaker 1: capture some of the growth opportunities. What's really interesting for
Speaker 1: us is we're also looking in the digital asset space
Speaker 1: as a participant or a facilitator of AI because you know,
Speaker 1: as we saw last week, there are a lot of
Speaker 1: issues around AI that we're trying to resolve, such as
Speaker 1: you know, copyright issues. You know, we saw some of
Speaker 1: those controversies around imaging and also you know, Musk is
Speaker 1: bringing a legal suit against open AI and digital assets,
Speaker 1: you know, using blockchain and cryptography. These are technologies that
Speaker 1: really already have resolved issues around transparency, immutability, or how
Speaker 1: to define ownership properties so you know, we think that
Speaker 1: digital assets, crypto assets will have a big, you know,
Speaker 1: critical component to the growth and innovation.
Speaker 2: In a moment ago, you were talking about how unusual
Speaker 2: it is to see people going a long risk assets
Speaker 2: and assets that are normally associated with being risk off.
Speaker 2: And let's put US treasuries in the bundle on the ladder.
Speaker 2: I mean, what do you make it the way the
Speaker 2: bond market has been performing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think and again I think you know, all
Speaker 1: markets are just sitting in this range bound waiting for
Speaker 1: the next piece of information, data or news. So this
Speaker 1: week is quite quite critical with the CPI least, because
Speaker 1: you know, that'll give everybody maybe a little bit more
Speaker 1: insight into the direction of where we're headed with inflation
Speaker 1: an interest rate. So the bond market, again, if you're
Speaker 1: out on the uh, you know, I wouldn't want to
Speaker 1: be on the long duration side of the bond market,
Speaker 1: you know, but there's still some interesting uh.
Speaker 3: If you get if you get an inflation print that
Speaker 3: is kind of more similar to the PCE that we
Speaker 3: got and you have growth remaining strong. I mean, that's
Speaker 3: a ticket for risk assets to move back to the upside,
Speaker 3: isn't it.
Speaker 1: Yes, but as we've seen, like what, this data is
Speaker 1: just still not really convincing, and people are reading different
Speaker 1: parts of the data to kind of support whatever underlying
Speaker 1: bias they have. And and I think that's why we're
Speaker 1: seeing both gold and bitcoin, as well as the equity
Speaker 1: and bond markets moving, you know, towards the same direction.
Speaker 2: So you sound a little cautious, Joy, thirty seconds, how
Speaker 2: are you hedged these days?
Speaker 1: We? You know, uh, I always look at gold. Gold
Speaker 1: is really it, you know, has broken out of its range.
Speaker 1: So I think gold and gold miners are going to
Speaker 1: be interesting because gold miners have been undervalued, and certainly
Speaker 1: bitcoin is on a rally. But there's a lot of
Speaker 1: other you know, there's a lot of other future acts.
Speaker 3: All right, Joy, thanks very much for joining us. Joe Young,
Speaker 3: head of product Management, Market Vector Indexes.
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