1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Body Doctors with Joseph Scott More. I guess it was 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: probably nineteen ninety eight. Had a student that came to 3 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: the Medical Examiner's office that had been chosen for one 4 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: of the coveted undergraduate ride along internship programs that we 5 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: offered over the summer and back then. Most of them 6 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: required a face to face interview, but this individual had 7 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: sent there their resume in and it was very impressive. 8 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I'll tell you what university 9 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: they were with. They were actually from a university in 10 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: my hometown, New Orleans. They were from Tulane, and this 11 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: individual was a physical anthropology major had plans on going 12 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: to the University of Tennessee to work on graduate work 13 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: at the body Farm. Very impressive stuff. But then on 14 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: the day that they were supposed to be there, they 15 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: showed up. I have never seen anything like it in 16 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: my life. Think a combination of Mortitia Adams and Gomez 17 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: atoms together blended. And I'm looking into the eyes of 18 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: this person and everything hair clothing is black with chrome 19 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: jewelry all over them, and skulls everywhere, and their skin 20 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: as white as snow. And I went to introduce myself 21 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: and the first thing out of their mouth after I 22 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: said welcome to the Medical Exact Office, was I just 23 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: want you to know I speak with the dead on 24 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: a regular basis, and that's how my summer began in 25 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight. I don't know if they commune with 26 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: the dead or not, but I do know this. The 27 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: dead do, in fact have a language, and as a 28 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: death investigator, it is incumbent upon us to learn that language. 29 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: And today we're going to start on a series of 30 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: educational podcast and our first one up is going to 31 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: be how in the world do we measure time since death? 32 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybags. Dave. Did 33 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: you know? I don't know if I've told you this, brother? 34 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: Did you know that the dead actually do make sounds? 35 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: Have I told you that before? 36 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 2: I don't know if you've told me that before. But 37 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: I've told enough stories about the dead rising from the 38 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 2: grave to scare children day. 39 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: You know, this is not really in the spiritual realm, 40 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: but people have often asked me. Inevitably, I will get 41 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: questions about ghosts all the time, you know, because I 42 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: spent so much time in the Morgue. You know, over 43 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: the course of my career and I never I never 44 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: experienced any kind of apparition or you know, voices, you 45 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: know that came to me. I didn't have objects in 46 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: my home that moved across the table, or you know, 47 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: red rum written on the mirror in my bathroom or 48 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: anything like that that that never happened. But the something 49 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: that really got my attention in the morgue when I 50 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: was very young. I just started working, and it was 51 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: probably my I guess it was probably my probably second month. 52 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: We had an older gentleman that was on the table 53 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: and I was. 54 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: On the table meaning dead. 55 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he was on the table dead. Sure he 56 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: had been in the cooler all night. We'd brought him 57 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: in and for whatever reason, he had no medical history. 58 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: And the corner, this was in New Orleans. The corner 59 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: decided that we should do the autopsy because we were 60 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: the ones that we're going to have to sign the 61 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: death certificate. And our office down there worked it. It 62 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: didn't matter that you were older, but if you had 63 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: no medical history and it was incumbent upon the corner, 64 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: it signed the death certificate. They want to know what 65 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: they're getting into, and you know, the bet is always 66 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: on heart disease because we all carry some level of 67 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: atheroscorotic cardiovascular disease. Okay, and so anyway, we had this 68 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: guy in the cooler all night. I'd taken him out 69 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: in preparation for the forensic pathologist to show up, and 70 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: we had several cases that we were doing that day. 71 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: I remember this day. It just stands out in my 72 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: mind because of what I'm about to tell you. And 73 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: I had all the instruments laid out. And so what 74 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: happens at an autopsy is the assistant or the deaner. 75 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: Again I tell everybody that literally is an old German 76 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: word that translates literally into servant of the dead. The deaner, 77 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: which was me. We're all gowned up and we're standing 78 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: there and the pathologist is walking around this clipboarder right 79 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: and he is examining, we're taking measurements. The guy's laying 80 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: on the table face up or in a soupine position, 81 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: and he looks at me and says, okay, Joe, I'm 82 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: ready to look at the back. So what you have 83 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: to do is you put your in my case, I'm 84 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: on the left side of the body. If you're looking 85 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: at the feet from the top of the head. I 86 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 1: put my left hand on the gentleman's hip, I put 87 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: my right hand on his shoulder, and I roll him 88 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: toward me, Dave. And as I'm rolling him, almost like 89 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: rumbling thunder off in the distance, I hear a sound. 90 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: And here's the sound. It goes like this. Well, it 91 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: got my attention, to say the very least, and I 92 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: looked down in the gentleman. The gentleman's mouth was slightly open, 93 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: and the pathologist looked at me, knowing I was young. 94 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: I had not experienced this before. He said, got your attention, 95 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: didn't I? And I was like, yeah, it really did. 96 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: He says, Okay, before you think, before you think he's 97 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: alive or that there's a ghost with us, explain to 98 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: me what just happened. And I sat there shaking. I 99 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: think the whole body was shaking. I'm still holding on 100 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: to him. 101 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: Well, first, Doc, iypede. 102 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: He and I thought about it, and I said, well, 103 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: I'm thinking to my mind it has something to do 104 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: with air. Just because you're dead doesn't mean that your 105 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: vocal cords are not still functional. And I was right, 106 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: I got it. I got to high marks for this 107 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: because what happened is as you roll him the lungs 108 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: actually pressure is applied to them from the sides and 109 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: air is traveling out and it's still passing over the 110 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: vocal cords and that sound issues forth from the mouth. 111 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: And so in that moment, I had a great lesson. 112 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: And I've talked to other people that have worked in 113 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: the Morgan. I remember having drinks many years later and 114 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: sitting around with a couple of people that have worked 115 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: in the Morgan that were investigators, and this is something 116 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: I've experienced on scenes too. And you talk about it 117 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: because I know it's coming to understand it. But if 118 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: you've got some cops that are standing there and you 119 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: roll the body over, and I actually had one guy 120 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: run out of the room at a crime scene, it 121 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, you get all of these ideas. And one 122 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: of the things I came up with was that when 123 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: you think of out in the movies, and even when 124 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: we were kids and we watched Scooby Doo, what sound 125 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: did the dead bodies make? You know? The ghost they 126 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: would go? And I have to think that somewhere along 127 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: the continuum, the creative continuum, somebody had heard this before, 128 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: and that's where it came up because you know, ghosts 129 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: in sheets. That's like the what they call them there. 130 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: It's like a funeral shawl or funeral covering that they 131 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: would put over the bodies. And so that's where and 132 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: also bodies are covered with a sheet at death. I 133 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: don't know why people do that. I've always been amazed 134 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: by that, that people think that it's necessary to put 135 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: a sheet over the body. And some people will say, well, 136 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: it's out of respect for the dead. The dead don't care. 137 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it has to do with 138 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: the fact that people are uncomfortable around the dead, and 139 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: in this business, in the business of death investigation, you 140 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: have to you have to warm up. You have to 141 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: warm up to the fact that you're going to be 142 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: in a room with a dead body and that you're 143 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: going to be trying to understand what happened to them. 144 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: And so that's that's kind of you know, you begin 145 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: to think about that, and you think about all of 146 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: the little intricacies involved with us doing assessments out in 147 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: the field, and it gives you pause and you have 148 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: to think about what clues do you look for? Dave, 149 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: And you know, in our world, the biggest thing is 150 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: this idea of Tomson's death or post mortem interval? 151 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: Do you teach this in college? Just yea, the whole 152 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 2: post mortem the oh yeah, okay, yeah it is part. 153 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: It's part and parcel of I teach a class called 154 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: Medical Legal Debt Investigation, and I have taught it for 155 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 2: I created at twenty Dave. This is my twentieth year 156 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 2: in higher education. I created a class twenty years go, 157 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: believe it or not, and it's based on the national standards. 158 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 2: I got to say something. I'm I apologize for not 159 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 2: having already done this, but I've met so many of 160 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 2: your students at Crime con the last two that have 161 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 2: come to the booth when you were in another area, 162 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: and they have told me stories about Professor Morgan, and 163 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 2: I just want to tell you I haven't forgot to 164 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 2: tell you the impact you've had. But for those of 165 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: you who are familiar with Joe as a professor, understand 166 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 2: he really does that. It's a Jacksonville State University in Jacksonville, Alabama. 167 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 2: When I first moved here, it was one of the 168 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: things that people bragged about was how police departments, the government, FBI, 169 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: all these other groups send their people to be trained 170 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 2: to learn things at JASU. And the forensic studies that 171 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 2: take place at that college. And I had no idea 172 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 2: it was because of Joseph Scott Morgan. 173 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: Well it's not, no, I can't take full credit. We 174 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: actually have have a division within our university, and this 175 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: is unique to our university called SEAFAF, which is the 176 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: Center for Applied Forensics, and it's our own crime lab 177 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: on campus. And it's not for the students. It's part 178 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: of the university, and the people that work there work 179 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: as instructors, but first and foremost they are practicing forensic scientists. 180 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: And we live in a very as you well know, Dave, 181 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: we're practically neighbors. We live in a very rural area 182 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: that doesn't we don't have a lot of rich people 183 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: around us. And so the departments, and this is a 184 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: kind of cool thing that I love because it goes 185 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: into the education and the training of investigators. O. Our 186 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: crime scene unit that that we send out from the 187 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: university is staffed now dig this by grad level, graduate 188 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: level crime scene investigators that are also bench trained forensic 189 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: scientist and we serve like an eight county area. So 190 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: if we have like a major crime, like a multiple 191 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: homicide in some rural area. You're not going to get 192 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: somebody that's going to show up with their phone to 193 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: take a picture. All of the sheriffs have gotten together 194 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: in this in this area in Northeast Alabama, pool their money, 195 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: and so when there's a major crime in one of 196 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: these isolated areas, you get the full bore here. I mean, 197 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: they show up, they process the scene, and so you 198 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 1: have this these graduate, these graduate forensic scientists that are 199 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: out there working these cases in what a lot of 200 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: people would regard as the sticks. And it's a real 201 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: for me, I think it's a real blessing because you know, 202 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: otherwise they wouldn't have access to this kind of technology 203 00:13:58,440 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: and that sort of. 204 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 2: Thing for some. He talks about where we live and 205 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 2: geographically speaking, friends, for those of Joe and I both 206 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: lived in metropolitan areas. Joe New Orleans and Atlanta, Me Atlanta, 207 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 2: Los Angeles. But I remember, in particular in the Atlanta 208 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: metro area that where I lived, it was about forty 209 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: five minutes to an hour to go to the Braves 210 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: and you see a game, I'm not that much further 211 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 2: from it here. Where we live is so convenient to Atlanta, Birmingham, 212 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 2: and Chattanooga, that it's like this triangle area of the 213 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 2: most beautiful places to be and the smack dab in 214 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 2: the middle of it is Jacksonville State University, where the 215 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,479 Speaker 2: most incredible things are being done with the study of forensics. Plus, 216 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: when you did the re enactment with Nancy Grace on 217 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: Ellen Greenburg her suicide with twenty twenty knife wounds to back, 218 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: neck and chest, you guys were able to do that 219 00:14:58,320 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: on the campus, right. 220 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, we reconstructed that actually at one of our facilities, 221 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: and we've just moved into a new facility that has 222 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: a let me get this straight. I know I'm going 223 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: to misspeak. I've got We've got an eight room crim 224 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: Seene house inside of an academic building. I mean, complete 225 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: with a bathroom. We've even got a laundry room. 226 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: You walked me into that. That's what you're when we tour. Yeah, Noah, 227 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: I felt like I was actually in an apartment. 228 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: I know, it looks just like that, and so you know, 229 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: that's that's one of the things I'm going to be 230 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: I'll have a gross anatomy lab there pretty soon where 231 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: we will actually have cadavers for undergraduate students. You know, 232 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: Digital forensics laboratory. I mean, it's it's it's really pretty cool, uh, 233 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: to have this and to be able to educate in 234 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: a lot of our students are first generation college attendees, 235 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: and so when they walk out of the university, they 236 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: actually have a degree where they can step into a 237 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: position to be a practitioner. And and yeah, you asked 238 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: me about this idea, do I teach this in class? 239 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: You know? The thing about you know, our faculty is 240 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: that we're all current or former practitioners, and so yeah, 241 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: we've all been in the field. We're not theorist sitting 242 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: in some some kind of ivy covered tower somewhere. Yeah, 243 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: we're we're actually at least current practice former practitioners, and 244 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: we have to stay on our game and stay sharp, 245 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: and you know the basics. My area of expertise is 246 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: medical legal debt investigation, studying the corner system and all 247 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, but just the practical stuff. And 248 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people have have You'll hear television shows 249 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: and all these sorts of things that will have something 250 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: in the title that we'll say, I speak with the dead, 251 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: or the dead having language of their own, or I 252 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,239 Speaker 1: converse with the dead, and that's why I found it 253 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: interesting that comment that I made early on about that 254 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: student that showed up and they're saying they actually converse 255 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: with a dead and that individual was they literally meant it. 256 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 1: You know, as we found out that individual was there 257 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: for a summer, it was horrible decision on our part. 258 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: And you know, because they would go out on scenes 259 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: was can you imagine having to deal with a family 260 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: that's just lost a loved one and you've got this 261 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: person going out into a scene with you with a 262 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: grieving family and they're dressed they looked like the grim Reaper, 263 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: and so they had to make adjustments to the way 264 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: they were dressing. It had to be respectful and all 265 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: this sort of stuff, But there was still that essence there. 266 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that's that is that 267 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: you have to dispel with my students when I'm trying 268 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: to teach them things, one of the first things they 269 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: learn is post warnum interval is you have to get 270 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: them past this this kind of first off, everybody, everyone 271 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: and me included, okay, going back years and years, we 272 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: all have like an indwelling fear of the dead. If 273 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: you've never been around a dead body, it's almost like 274 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: you have to jump across over that threshold before you 275 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: get comfortable with the fact that you're you're standing there, 276 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: you're looking at a deceased individual, and it's a shock 277 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: to the system the first time it happens. And I 278 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: don't I do not judge anybody harshly that has reacted 279 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: to the dead in a particular way, because no one 280 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: can predict. I've seen very how do you say it, big? Yeah, 281 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: they look like, you know, they could just tear up 282 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: a New York City phone book in half if anybody 283 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: still knows what a phone book is, and they will 284 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: run screaming out of the room. Or no, no, no, 285 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I'm not going to be in 286 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 1: here while this is being done. And so I've encountered that, 287 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: but there there, you have to get past that. If 288 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: you truly, truly want to understand the language of the dead, 289 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: with any language, you have to have some kind of 290 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know a better term for 291 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: a codex. I guess you know. I think that my 292 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: mind goes to like the Rosetta stone, you know, and 293 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: people think about, you know that they were able to 294 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: uh utilizing that that artifact that they found they could 295 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: decipher things dead languages, those sorts of things, and try 296 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: to understand the ancients, the dead or are really no different. 297 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: And you know when people say they speak with the dead, 298 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: or the dead speak to them and all this sort 299 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: of thing, they'll also you'll also hear I speak for 300 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: those that can no longer speak for themselves. I think 301 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: I even used to have a T shirt that said 302 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: that from the Baltimore Homicide Division. I was up there 303 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: at a class one time. My favorite, though, it has 304 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: always been my day begins when years ends, and that 305 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: was the New Orleans Homicide Division. Wow, a bit distasteful. 306 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: I wouldn't wear that one, but for us scientifically, there 307 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: is a codex and Dave, you know when people die. 308 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: I guess I would have to ask you, my friend, 309 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: what's what's kind of the first thing that comes to 310 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: mind for you as far as changes. What's a term 311 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: you've heard in the past that kind of jumps out 312 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: to you as it applies to changes after death. 313 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because when you mentioned post mortemenival, 314 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 2: Actually I've heard that term so many times. I had 315 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 2: to think about it because I think it's been misused 316 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 2: because it's rare. In its actual form, it means the 317 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: time between the last breath and the time the person 318 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: has found correct. Yes, yeah, that's what that's the post 319 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: more demenival. And it can be days, weeks, months, or 320 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 2: right minutes, yes, and so it encompasses all of that. 321 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 2: When I think of the first thing of somebody when 322 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: they die, I'm because I'm a I'm a twelve year 323 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 2: old boy at heart. I think that their bowels are 324 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: loose and everything comes out. That's what I've been told, 325 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: and that's what I think. 326 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: And it does happen, yes, yeah, to everyone, and no, 327 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: not to everyone. And bladders will also void as well, 328 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: so you'll have that combination. But no, it doesn't happen 329 00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 1: in every case, but in the immediate I think that 330 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: when we're trying to determine the post mortem interval, we 331 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: think of, well, we've heard the term. It's in the 332 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: vernacular cold and stuff, right, you know, and that's that's 333 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: kind of crept into our language, you know. And people 334 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: I've heard people out on crime scenes. They'll say, wow, 335 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 1: that guy is stiff as a board. One of the 336 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: biggest misconceptions I think, and we're talking specifically about rigor mortis, 337 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: and it's also used and I've had people try to 338 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: correct me on this and I'm like, okay, whatever, there's 339 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: another term. You'll hear rigor mortis, riger mortis, and you'll 340 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: hear rigidity. So those those three things, and essentially what 341 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: it comes down to is a stiffening. And people will say, well, 342 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: you know the scene, there's stiff as a board. One 343 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: of the big misconceptions that is out there about riger 344 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: is that it stays forever and ever, amen, And it doesn't. 345 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: It doesn't. And that's one of the the beauty of that, Dave, 346 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: is that it's one of the markers that we look 347 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: for because when when someone dies, just so that we 348 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: understand at a cellular level, we have you have a 349 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: process that's going on in your body. It's called cellular respiration, okay, 350 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: and so in cellular respiration, you're creating these little balls 351 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: of energy and it's called ATP Okay, So and just 352 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 1: imagine it spinning around circle. It's throwing off these little 353 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: balls of energy ATP. Well, as that's happening and you die, 354 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:57,239 Speaker 1: that little cycle, the cellular respiration ceases and instead of 355 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 1: a TRY which is part of a TP you go 356 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: to a die which is a DP, and instead of 357 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: throwing off little balls of energy with a DP, it 358 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 1: throws off lactic acid. And so one of the things 359 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: I tell my kids at Jack State is listen and 360 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: police Academy too. How many of you guys have ever 361 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: worked Hey, you haven't worked out in a while, okay, 362 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: And you go to the gym, you do push ups, 363 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: maybe you do some lightweights. You don't sense it, you 364 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: can feel the tension, all that sort of stuff, and 365 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: then the next morning you wake up and your stiff 366 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: is a board. Hey, guess what happened. You've got lactic 367 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: acid build up. And so that's what's happening with the dead. 368 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: And I'll tell my kids that that feeling that you 369 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: have in the morning in life, that's as close as 370 00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: you will feel to writer Mortise. 371 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 2: When somebody wakes up and they say, I feel like 372 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 2: death warmed over. That actually is what death warmed over 373 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: feels like. 374 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, that's yeah. I guess we could 375 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: say that there's there's all kinds of terms that people 376 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: applaud to death. 377 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 2: Go ahead, how I mean, I'm not trying to be 378 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 2: funny or anything, because most of us who don't deal 379 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 2: with dead bodies. Yeah, we see them in movies, and 380 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 2: we see them at TV shows. Occasionally we'll be around 381 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 2: a loved one when they pass, and that's a different 382 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 2: scenario as they die in your arms while you're sitting 383 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,479 Speaker 2: there and you see the life. 384 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: You see the lights. 385 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 2: Turn out, yes, and you can actually physically see changes. 386 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: And that's what I wanted to know when when that happens, 387 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 2: and we are seeing a change in the eyes in particular, 388 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 2: just I'll never forget the eyes. You know, they're gone. 389 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 2: There's no question about this person is gone. Their body 390 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 2: is immediately going through changes right then. 391 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, at a cellular level, it occurs like almost instantaneously, 392 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot of people don't understand that. 393 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: Uh the dead will also take on a gray pallor uh, 394 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: there's there's color change because you know, uh, in life, 395 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: you know, we're we're vibrant looking most of the time. 396 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: You're you have you might not have rosy cheeks necessarily, 397 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: but you you there's there's something you know that the 398 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: person is animated, okay, and that there there's life there, 399 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, and even even people that are aged and infirm, 400 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, you can still sense that. But uh, you 401 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: have these moments in time and I'm glad that you 402 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: mentioned being with a loved one and you see them 403 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: slip away. Uh. There are these experiences that people have 404 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: with death, and they'll with the aged in particular, particularly 405 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: if you have an individual that is atrophied, which means, 406 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: for instance, they they're bedridden and you And that's why 407 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: you have to be really careful in your calculations. You 408 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: have to understand the idea of their muscle mass and 409 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: the effect of lack of metabolic activity at a cellular 410 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: level in life. Okay, So if you have an elderly 411 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: person in bed that is bedridden, atrophied muscles are wasted 412 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: when they die, RIGER sets in slower with them. It 413 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: sets in slower, Whereas, on the other hand, if you 414 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: have let's say you've got a young man that's running 415 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: from the police and he gets into a shootout with 416 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: a cop. All right, well, his metabolic activity is racing, 417 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: and plus he ain't atrophied, he's got vibrant muscle tissue, 418 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. RIGER will sit in quicker with 419 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: him than say someone else that is not quite as vital. 420 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: You know, physically, you know what I'm saying, and so 421 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: that don't have that vitality. So when you're a death 422 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: investigator and you're trying to assess a body of a scene, 423 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: you have to take it's not a static world that 424 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: we live in. These people that do these studies about 425 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: the dead and trying to assess what's going on with 426 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: bodies and all these sorts of things, they really fall 427 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: short in this area because they do it. And this 428 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: is the thing. When you read a lot of the 429 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: text and everything, it'll say under eye deal conditions. Dave, 430 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: listen to me, do you actually think I've ever worked 431 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: to death in ideal conditions? It's not like I'm in 432 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: some kind of sealed off laboratory environment. I mean, we're 433 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: in the real world. You know. We're out in the 434 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: middle of an interstate highway working a car accident, or 435 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: we're in a house where somebody has gone berserk with 436 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: a baseball bat. These are not ideal conditions. The tempts 437 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: are all variable. You've got outdoor versus indoor. There's so 438 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: many variables to this. But just so that folks understand 439 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: with with Riiger, it begins to set in and this 440 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: is controversial. What I'm about to say it's kind of 441 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: controversially it's not really, but because people in the past 442 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,959 Speaker 1: have said it starts in the small muscles of the face, 443 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: that's an aw accurate. And when I say small muscles 444 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: of the face, I'm talking about like the eyelids. All right, Okay, 445 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: you know it doesn't start in the small muscles of 446 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: the face. It's first appreciable in the small muscle groups. 447 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: It's starting everywhere. It starts immediately all over your body. 448 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: All over your body. Yeah, but around anymore there's nothing, 449 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: and so it presents you can appreciate it first, particularly 450 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: in the jaw. The jaw will begin to kind of 451 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: sench up, and you have to be really careful. And 452 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: I'll give you at a little aside here. One of 453 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: my favorite stories at Christmas time is Christmas Carol with 454 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: you know, Ebenezer Scrooge and the whole thing. And you 455 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: know when Jacob Marley, the ghost of Jacob Marley comes 456 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: to visit, comes to visit Ebeneze are Scrooge and tells 457 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: him he's going to be visited by three ghosts. There's 458 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: this one image and some of these theatrical things where 459 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: the ghost of Jacob Marley actually takes the handkerchief off 460 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: of his head as mouth opens. Well, during Victorian times particularly, 461 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: they found it to be untoored for the dead to 462 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 1: die and their mouth be open, and so what they 463 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: would do is they would put a kerchief or a 464 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: handkerchief around the head and tied off up top, and 465 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: so when rieger would set in, the jaw would clinch shut. Okay, 466 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: and it is it begins to be appreciated into small muscles, 467 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: and then it kind of extends out into the extremities, 468 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: you know, where you're getting into the shoulders, the hands, 469 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: the fingers, the toes. And with that rigidity, you understand 470 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: that there are markers in time where you assess it 471 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: first off off by level, by the level of resistance 472 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: or rigidity. Like I've had little old ladies that have died, Dave. 473 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: I remember one lady in particular that was a homicide 474 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: victim that had been beaten to death, and we were 475 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: trying to examine her mouth and it took every ounce. 476 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: And I used to be like, I wasn't a bodybuilder, 477 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: but I was big. I lifted weights constantly, and this 478 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: is when I was a young man working in the. 479 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 2: Mort Yeah, and I couldn't. 480 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 1: I could not open her jaw. That's how strong the 481 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: rigidity was in her jaw. And finally I was able to, 482 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: but it took a great deal of doing. That's how 483 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: stiff that that this presentation is throughout the body. There's 484 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: a classic photo that's in a book, and I recommend 485 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: anybody that can get their hands in this book. It's 486 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: called Spitzing Fish or Medical Legal Death Investment. It's like 487 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: our Bible. And there's a photo that was donated by 488 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: the OCME, the Office of Chief Medical Examiner in New York, 489 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: and it's a black and white from the twenties and Dave, 490 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: they have a man who is completely nude, and the 491 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: body of a man who's completely nude, and his head 492 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: is resting on the seat of a chair and his 493 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: heels are resting on the seat of another chair, and 494 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: they're fully spread. It goes the length of his body 495 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: and there's nothing supporting underneath his body. It looks like 496 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: you could take a shirt and iron a shirt. That's 497 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: how rigid his body is. And they took that photo back. 498 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: I think it was like in the twenties to demonstrate 499 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: the level of rigidity. But here's the trick with and 500 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: how we use this to our advantage as a death 501 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: investigator is, first off, there's time we begin to assess 502 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: that marker relative to the level of rigidity. Is it 503 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: fully set in, and it's going to take several hours 504 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: for it to set in, and if the body is found, 505 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: say in an abnormal position. I'll give you an example. 506 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: Let's say that someone you've got a homicide and I've 507 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: actually had this happen where someone dies in a chair 508 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: and they're seated and maybe they've been murdered and they're 509 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: taken out of the chair and riger has begun to 510 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: develop and it might be almost completely fixed at that 511 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: point in time, and they're transported to another location and 512 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: you see them laying out on the side of the 513 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: road and that it looks like there's an invisible chair 514 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: underneath them. You know, you know at that moment toime 515 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: that this is because people don't die in that position. 516 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: You know that something has happened along the way and 517 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,439 Speaker 1: in this case, and this does happen quite a bit. 518 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: People will be involved in something like a homicide and 519 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: they're scratching their head thinking, what in the world am 520 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: I going to do with a dead body, and so 521 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: as that body sits there, it's stiffening. The work with 522 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: the dead body doesn't stop just because the perpetrator is confused. 523 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: The body is going to continue to change, and there's 524 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: other changes that we'll get to. But in this particular instance, 525 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: I remember distinctly having a guy that was set out 526 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 1: in a patch of a pine forest, and he wasn't 527 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: in a seated position per se, but he was leaned. 528 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: His back was leaned against the base of a tree 529 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: so that his shoulder blades were running in a vertical 530 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 1: they were up and down like this, and his legs 531 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: were pulled up into a seating position and as it 532 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 1: turns out, and executed in a chair. And they'd left 533 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 1: him sit there for hours, so he was rigid at 534 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: that point in top. And then you have individuals that 535 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: are coming out of rider, and so when you get 536 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: to that point, you're looking at probably about thirty six 537 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: hours down range from when death occurred, where they become 538 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 1: what we refer to as flaccy. There's two types of 539 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: burners in a chemistry class. You've got alcohol burners and 540 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: gas burners. And the reason you have you have access 541 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: to fire our heat is that heat facilitates certain experiments. 542 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: And we all know that heat speeds things up. So, 543 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: for instance, if it is hot outside, like down here 544 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: in beautiful Alabama where we live, in the middle of summer, buddy, 545 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: let me tell you something. You've ever been on the 546 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: asphalt in the middle of July in Alabama, it's you know, 547 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,760 Speaker 1: one hundred and forty six degrees on the surface there. 548 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: If you have someone that dies there, there's going to 549 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: be an appreciable speed to the rate at which ryger 550 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: is going to set in with those individuals, as opposed 551 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: to somebody that's maybe in a cooler area, you know, 552 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: maybe seventy degrees in the shade, that sort of thing. 553 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: So you've got all these variables that are going to 554 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: play into it. And then after a period of time, 555 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,720 Speaker 1: it could be like twenty four to thirty six hours 556 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: down range that it's going to dissipate. So you say, well, 557 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: how do you know. How do you know if in 558 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: fact the person has been dead or they're not freshly dead. Well, 559 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: I'll give you an indication. The biggest thing is we 560 00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: look for things like the smell. Okay, that presents, but 561 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: the most critical thing is something called liver mortis, which 562 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: is actually referred to there's a couple of ways that 563 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: people refer to it as we have liver mortis, post 564 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: mortem lividity, and that's a color change. 565 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:19,800 Speaker 2: And. 566 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: It is it's actually my favorite element to assess a 567 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 1: body with relative to post mortem interval. And I'll tell 568 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: you why. It is not affected by heat at all, 569 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: no temperature change whatsoever. It is totally and completely the 570 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,879 Speaker 1: beauty of it is totally and completely gravitationally dependent. And look, 571 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: if we had if we had a physics person here, 572 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: all right, they would argue this next point with me. Okay, 573 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: I say, in my class, gravity is a constant. It 574 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 1: doesn't vary. Okay, they would say, of course it varies. 575 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: You go to the poles, it's going to be variable there. 576 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: It'll be variable at the equator, and all they say, okay, 577 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: all right, thanks onn Stinch. What I'm trying to say 578 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: is gravity is gravity, all right. And with liquid anybody 579 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: that's ever owned a home, you know, I know that 580 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, my mom was always worried 581 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: about the cross space under the house because where's water settling. 582 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: Liquid seeks the lowest area, and so blood is no different. Now, 583 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: it's more viscous, it's thicker than water. However, it's still 584 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 1: a liquid and it's going to settle to the lowest point. 585 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,800 Speaker 1: So if you've got, for example, the guy that was 586 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: in the chair that died, when postmortem lividity sets in, 587 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: and this is something you can appreciate, Dave, within about 588 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 1: twenty minutes, Okay, really that quick? Yeah? Uh now it's 589 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 1: not fixed, right, but within twenty minutes you'll see blood settle. 590 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: Just think about anybody that's ever had a kid, or 591 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: maybe you were one of those kids. I wasn't. I 592 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: couldn't do it. That would hang upside down on a 593 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: monkey bar. You ever done that at a playground? I 594 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: never could do that. But you see those kids that'll 595 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 1: do that. What happens to their head? If they hang 596 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: there for a while, what happens to their head? The head? Yeah, 597 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: it rushes to their head and you can actually see 598 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: a physical representation. The head will become red. Else the 599 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: face will swell. It's the same principle with postmortem lividity 600 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,959 Speaker 1: or live or mortis and so. And people say, God, 601 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: that's an odd word, Morgan. Why are you saying that? Well, 602 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: it comes it's the same word that we use, and 603 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: I love it. I love the English language because it's 604 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,839 Speaker 1: one of those words that when you have no other 605 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: way to describe how furious an angry you are. And 606 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: I have been at that state in my life. I 607 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,320 Speaker 1: don't know about you, Dave. You don't ever get angry. 608 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 1: I don't think the term we use is I was livid. Yeah, 609 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: And so it's the same thing. It comes from that 610 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: same root, and so you actually have color changes when 611 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: you get angry. I'm sure everybody can identify with that. 612 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: But blood is drawn to those lowest portions of the body. 613 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: From that perspective, the trick is is that once that 614 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: blood settles in those deepended areas, after a period of time, 615 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't migrate. And let me tell you how it works. 616 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:48,839 Speaker 1: So let's say your city seated in a chair standard seat, 617 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: an individual dies. You have points of contact. So you 618 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: got your rear end that's supporting your body right, and 619 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: you've got your arms maybe resting on the arms of chair. 620 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: That's a point of contact. Well, all that area where 621 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: your bottom is in the chair that's surrounding that's non contacting, 622 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: that's just surrounding that area. The blood will settle into 623 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,720 Speaker 1: the vessels there and all the little capillary beds. Remember 624 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: you study those in school. They're not meant to store blood, 625 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: they're meant to circulate blood. And guess what, After a 626 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: period of time, the blood leeches out of them and 627 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: it gets into what's called the interstitial tissue. And it literally, 628 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 1: there's hardly a better way to explain it. It stains 629 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: that SubQ fat in the skin just beneath the surface. 630 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter what you do, even embalming the 631 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 1: body doesn't make it go away. And so it's fixed 632 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: after a period of time. And when we come out 633 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: to the scene, you know how with riger we assess 634 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: the scene or assess the level of riger bte Remember 635 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: I said the level of rigidity. How rigid is the body? 636 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 1: And people can do this home if you'll just take 637 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: your left arm and extend it and take your right 638 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,240 Speaker 1: hand or your your index finger and your middle finger 639 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: and press it down on the palmer aspect of your forearm. 640 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,399 Speaker 1: Press it down hard. When you remove your fingers after 641 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: a five count, you'll see that the skin blanches there. Well, 642 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: that's what we look for in the dead, because if 643 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 1: it's non blanchable, guess what that means it's fixed at 644 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: that point in time, and in order to get fixed 645 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:40,240 Speaker 1: it has to be that you're going to be looking 646 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: roughly eight to ten hours where it's completely fixed. The 647 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: one monkey wrench that can be thrown into all of 648 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: this is that if you've got a dead body and 649 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: blood begins to settle and say it's a homicide, and 650 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,360 Speaker 1: the perpetrator comes back and they decide to move the body, 651 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,279 Speaker 1: you can actually and it's before it's fixed, you can 652 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,879 Speaker 1: actually get multiple presentations on multiple surfaces. So it gets 653 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: kind of confusing. You have to pay very close attention, 654 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: but suffice it to say, just those two elements alone 655 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: with Riyger Mortise and Postmarnal Avidity can tell us a 656 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 1: lot about the dead. They do in fact speak to us, 657 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: at least through the science. The question is do we 658 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: pay attention, do we take note, and do we listen. 659 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,320 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Packs