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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Robert Evans here. It's the end of the year.

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Speaker 2: A couple of big, heavy hitter holidays coming in a row,

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Speaker 2: and we have them off both with the company and

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Speaker 2: as a team. So since there's not a new Bastard's

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Speaker 2: episode this week, and also since Henry Kissinger just died,

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Speaker 2: we figured this would be a nice time to rerun

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Speaker 2: the original six Henry Kissinger episodes. These are great, I

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Speaker 2: think are a useful introduction if you, or perhaps your

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Speaker 2: friends and family don't know why a lot of people

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Speaker 2: are happy that Henry's no longer in the world. I

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Speaker 2: want to thank again the doll up guys, Dave Anthony

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Speaker 2: and Gareth Reynolds for being wonderful guests for this. I

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Speaker 2: checked in with them before we did this, just to

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Speaker 2: see if they had anything to plug. Dave Anthony has

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Speaker 2: an album out that you can find. It's a hot

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Speaker 2: Head by Dave Anthony. You can go to Dave Anthony

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Speaker 2: dot bandcamp dot com. I probably don't need a spell

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Speaker 2: Dave Anthony for you, right enough one. And then we've

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Speaker 2: got Gareth Reynolds, who is going to be touring quote

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Speaker 2: all over the place in February and March of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four. They have too many links to promote as one.

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Speaker 2: But if you go to Gareth Reynolds dot com that's

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Speaker 2: g A R E T h R E y n

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Speaker 2: O l d s dot com you can find their

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Speaker 2: schedule for live shows. Gareth is wonderful. Check those out too, Anyway,

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Speaker 2: nothing else to say. Here are the episodes. Oh Sophie,

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Speaker 2: this plate of Behind the Bastards is so heavy as

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Speaker 2: we walk through this hallway. Oh my gosh, is that

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Speaker 2: David Anthony and Gareth Reynolds with a heavy plate of

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Speaker 2: the doll up? Oh no, oh no, I'm losing control.

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Speaker 2: Oh god, you guys are slipping too. How was that?

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Speaker 3: I couldn't disagree more?

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Speaker 4: That was the most organic, just real thing I think

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Speaker 4: I've ever heard that.

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Speaker 3: It was, yeah, like, you're really the only thing I'm

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Speaker 3: noticing is you didn't have plates. So I'm wondering how.

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Speaker 2: I was wondering as I started it, are they going

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Speaker 2: to join in? Or am I going to just have

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Speaker 2: to commit fully to this?

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Speaker 4: And now that's something where if it's me, I just

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Speaker 4: let you go and then let.

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Speaker 3: You have inside. I was a dog in a yard

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Speaker 3: that wanted to leave it. But I was like, I'll

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Speaker 3: get it. I'm not supposed to leave, so I was

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Speaker 3: I wanted to join that.

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, well this is this is just a wonderful time. Obviously.

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Speaker 2: Again you are Dave Anthony Gareth Reynolds, hosts of The

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Speaker 2: Doll Up, the podcast that invented being funny about history

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Speaker 2: on the Internet. Thank you so much for for sitting

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Speaker 2: down with us today.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: We've always for a long time, I've wanted to do

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Speaker 4: something with you so and we've talked about this, but yeah.

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Speaker 3: We have.

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Speaker 2: This has been like bouncing back and forth for a

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Speaker 2: while and it was just one of those things where

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Speaker 2: it's like, well, when we finally do our six part

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Speaker 2: series on Henry Kissinger, it's going to be the worst

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Speaker 2: thing we've ever had to do.

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Speaker 4: They have a therapy session setup right afterwards.

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Speaker 3: Dave married a therapist in preparation.

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Speaker 2: That's good, really putting in the deep work to make this,

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Speaker 2: to make this series of success.

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Speaker 3: So my working.

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Speaker 2: Title for this, which they probably won't let us use,

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Speaker 2: is Henry Kissinger comma a big sack of donkey balls before?

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Speaker 3: Can we do that? So fun perfectly finds that what

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Speaker 3: are you talking about.

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Speaker 2: What do you guys know, Like I kind of think

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Speaker 2: we maybe it's a good idea to start with, like

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Speaker 2: what's your your cliffs notes, we'll have We'll have you

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Speaker 2: do it, Dave, because because you're the one who reads

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Speaker 2: things normally Kissinger, Yeah, you know, a Kissinger.

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Speaker 4: The thing that you know obviously stands out as Vietnam

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Speaker 4: and Camp and Camp Boda, and you know that's.

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Speaker 5: Just reprehensible beyond all words.

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Speaker 4: But he's really been a part of just so many

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Speaker 4: horrific foreign policy decisions and had his He's always getting

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Speaker 4: in there.

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Speaker 3: He's always a part of the business. Really was.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if he is now, but for a

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Speaker 4: long time he was always a guy who would come

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Speaker 4: in and go, why don't you do the worst thing?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And that's that's the thing that's that's interesting and even

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Speaker 2: a little bit difficult about talking about him because he's

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Speaker 2: not one of these guys. He's not like you can't

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Speaker 2: say with him like you can with an Asaddam husseaying

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Speaker 2: like oh, he ordered he started this war on this date,

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Speaker 2: you know, or he he ordered this man. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you can actually, but he's he's not like a he's

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Speaker 2: not on paper supposed to be a warlord or an

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Speaker 2: elected leader. The thing that he is good at doing

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Speaker 2: is getting the ability to do stuff that warlords and

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Speaker 2: dictators do by sitting in the back rooms with people

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Speaker 2: who are the ones who on paper hold the power

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Speaker 2: and convincing them to let him do stuff. And he's

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Speaker 2: the best at that there's ever been.

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Speaker 3: We've had a couple figures on our podcast who I

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Speaker 3: would relate to like, and I would say, maybe Kissinger

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Speaker 3: is like the War Crimes Forrest Gump, where yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: like yes, kind of you're like, oh, yeah, he was there,

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Speaker 3: He's invented shit happens. I don't know, he invented that phrase.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's incredibly that's that might. I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: honestly a better title than the one I came up.

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Speaker 3: This is the favorite title.

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Speaker 2: I mean, And obviously Forrest Gump is blameless and Kissinger

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Speaker 2: is not, but it does get it. The fact that

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Speaker 2: he's just like, he's just there. He's just in every

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Speaker 2: fucking photo of like guys doing a war crime like

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Speaker 2: it is baffling the number of things he's connected to.

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Speaker 2: I should probably just start stop selling it, but I

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Speaker 2: do kind of want to talk about the fact that

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Speaker 2: he is. He is this kind of back room figure

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Speaker 2: in a lot of the worst things that happened in

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Speaker 2: the twentieth century. Because we're gonna spend episode one. By

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Speaker 2: the time this episode's over, he's not, you know, in

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Speaker 2: the White House, He's not running shit. This is an

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Speaker 2: episode where we talk about like his early life and

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Speaker 2: his ideological roots, because that's that's what underpins all of

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Speaker 2: the things that he does. He's not a guy people

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Speaker 2: talk about like what Kissinger believes, and Kissinger himself has

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Speaker 2: written a bunch of books about what he believes. My opinion,

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Speaker 2: as an amateur guy studying this dude, is that I

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Speaker 2: don't think he believes things as much as he beliefs

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Speaker 2: and ideas are weapons that he uses in order to

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Speaker 2: get people to let him do horrible things. And he

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Speaker 2: is the master of using beliefs and moving between different

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Speaker 2: groups of people who on paper are ideologically opposed and

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Speaker 2: getting them all to agree with whatever bullshit he wants

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Speaker 2: to do, because he's really good at talking about ideas

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Speaker 2: like a fucking philosopher, Like that's his superpower.

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Speaker 3: They might just have trouble understanding him. I know, I have.

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Speaker 2: Whatever what did we agree to Oh god, I was

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Speaker 2: going to ask Gareth before we get started. Here is

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Speaker 2: your German accent locked and loaded? Ah, I mean, listens

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Speaker 2: to the disgust of the German people.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 2: That's fine, that's fine they I think we can all agree.

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Speaker 2: After the twentieth century, the Germans lost the right to

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Speaker 2: be angry when people.

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Speaker 3: That's how It's like Texans. You know, everyone can do

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Speaker 3: a Texan. Yeah, that's how.

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Speaker 5: I sure, I don't.

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Speaker 3: Think I can.

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Speaker 4: I can make any accent sound kind of English and

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Speaker 4: sort of Spanish.

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Speaker 3: And you can't do English. It's really just sort of

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Speaker 3: this amazing ability to.

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Speaker 2: See whenever I do a non American accent, it just

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Speaker 2: drifts Russian at some point, like one hundred percent of

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, oh my god, Well this is your time. Now

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Speaker 4: you can shine with what's going on.

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Speaker 2: I know, I know, I'm ready to just yuck it

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Speaker 2: up over. Speaking of which, there's a number of roots

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Speaker 2: of what's happening between Ukraine and Russia right now that

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Speaker 2: you can type action. I mean that that's a little

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Speaker 2: bit less his his the area that he fucked around in,

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Speaker 2: But he did some fucking around there, Like one of

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Speaker 2: the things. We are spending six episodes talking about Henry

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Speaker 2: Kissinger and we're leaving some shit out.

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Speaker 5: Wow, yeah, you have to. I mean, he's been around

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Speaker 5: so many years.

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Speaker 4: I mean, just the fact that he was still powering

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Speaker 4: around Hillary Clinton in the election, and you're like.

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Speaker 5: What is that guy doing there?

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Speaker 3: Don't you know? He's bad and he's.

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Speaker 2: The thing that is so interesting about Kissinger is that

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Speaker 2: he does have this equal He's equally good at talking

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Speaker 2: to like people who would call themselves liberals and progressives

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Speaker 2: as he is to like far right neo cons like

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Speaker 2: he's he's he's I mean, you could I think you

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Speaker 2: could say that. Part of what that reveals is that

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Speaker 2: the ruling class in this country are all in agreement

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Speaker 2: about things more often than they disagree about things. But

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Speaker 2: part of it is just that, like he is so charming.

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Speaker 2: We will be talking a bit about Kissinger as a

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Speaker 2: sex symbol, which is a thing that happens, and I

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Speaker 2: am so sorry that we have to discuss it.

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Speaker 6: No.

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Speaker 4: I was hoping he would say this because I've wanted

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Speaker 4: to fuck him for so long, Like that's one of

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Speaker 4: the main things he's hot.

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Speaker 3: I call it henryone Fuckinger. I've always wanted. The kiss

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Speaker 3: is not enough kiss. That's just a taste of what

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Speaker 3: I'm after.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, well, ab test the Forest, Gump and the

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Speaker 2: Fuckinger title. Yeah, we'll just see what plays best in Poughkeepsie.

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Speaker 2: So Heinz Alfred Kissinger was born on May twenty seventh,

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty three, in the city of Firth, Germany. The

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Speaker 2: Kissingers were a Jewish family, And so given that this

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Speaker 2: is Germany in the early twenties, you can tell we're

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Speaker 2: not off to a great start already, right, this is

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Speaker 2: this is not going to be a story that begins

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Speaker 2: in a particularly pleasant place. He was born in a

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Speaker 2: very chaotic world. The Great Year was like five years

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Speaker 2: past when he comes onto the planet. Everything is falling

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Speaker 2: apart in Germany and a lot of other places. The

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Speaker 2: year he's born, Primo di Rivera seized power as the

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Speaker 2: dictator of Spain. Mustafa Kamal took power. In Turkey, the

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Speaker 2: Bulgarian prime minister was assassinated in a coup. Like it

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Speaker 2: was a troubling time to be a baby. But Heinz's

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Speaker 2: mother and father had some reasons for optimism. While Firth

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Speaker 2: was not an attractive city, in fact, one contemporary described

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Speaker 2: it as stifling in its narrow, dreariness. Are ungardened city,

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Speaker 2: city of soot. You know, it's it's a city. It's city.

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Speaker 2: It's city. It's a working class factory town. But because

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Speaker 2: of that, and this is the period in which the

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Speaker 2: working class is a lot more left wing than you know,

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Speaker 2: folks tend to give it credit for being today. It's

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Speaker 2: a very it's like a haven for democrats, not like

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Speaker 2: our democrats, but people who support democracy as opposed to

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Speaker 2: want to go back to having a kaiser, you know,

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Speaker 2: so Firth is.

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Speaker 5: I wouldn't want to go back to having a kaiser.

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Speaker 3: He was so we're so good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I want to have a king who gets

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Speaker 2: us into World War One and like whaps off about

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Speaker 2: his mom's hands.

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Speaker 3: That sounds great again. Well, now that I know what

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Speaker 3: we're talking about, let's dance. I'm in I want a kaiser.

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Speaker 2: So Firth is. In some ways, you could see it.

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Speaker 2: It's rep in Germany as being kind of like Portland today.

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Speaker 2: It's a very left wing town. It's seen as a

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Speaker 2: haven for socialists. But it's also kind of like Selma,

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Speaker 2: Alabama during the Civil rights era. Because Firth has a

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Speaker 2: very large Jewish population, and the period in like the

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Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds is when a lot of there's essentially

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Speaker 2: apartheid against Jewish people in Germany for a long time.

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Speaker 2: So Firth is the city that has Germany's first Jewish lawyer,

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Speaker 2: and it has a bunch of their other first Jewish

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Speaker 2: you know, exes person who does this job because it's

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Speaker 2: this very progressive city with a very integrated Jewish community.

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Speaker 2: So it's this mix of the Nazis aren't going to

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Speaker 2: like this town, right, Yeah, Like Cortland.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like Partland.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's got some similarities between a couple of things.

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Speaker 2: So Heinz's parents, Paula and Lewis, had grown up in

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Speaker 2: Imperial Germany, where Jews were restricted from holding certain jobs,

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Speaker 2: going to certain schools, living in certain homes, and this

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Speaker 2: had ended by the time the Kaiser had so Lewis Kissinger,

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Speaker 2: Henry's dad, kime of age in a period in which

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Speaker 2: a Jewish boy could actually build a professional life for

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Speaker 2: the first in mainstream German society. He was a member

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Speaker 2: of the first and almost the last generation that this

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Speaker 2: would be true of why what happens oh day, we

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Speaker 2: may need to do it a separate podcast seriesly.

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Speaker 3: I never read any German history. Oh my god, it's

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Speaker 3: so exciting. So he starts work.

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Speaker 2: Lewis as a teacher in a secular private school when

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Speaker 2: he's eighteen, and he holds the job for fourteen years.

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Speaker 2: And he was a very patriotic person. He's also like,

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Speaker 2: he is an Orthodox Jew, so he's very religious, but

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Speaker 2: he considers himself a German first and foremost, and his

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Speaker 2: family is very patriotic. His brother fights in World War One,

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Speaker 2: so does his wife's dad. Two of his cousins die

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Speaker 2: fighting for the Kaiser, and when the war ends, German defeat.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's all these rumors spread throughout the far

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Speaker 2: right that the nation's been stabbed in the back by

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Speaker 2: an alliance of Jewish boogeyman Heinz or sorry, Lewis kind

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Speaker 2: of he sees this as happening, but he doesn't think

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Speaker 2: that it's ever going to like take hold. Henry would

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Speaker 2: later recall that his father would regularly say, we live

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Speaker 2: in an age of tolerance, So his dad is not right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 4: Are you talking about America twenty two or are you

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Speaker 4: talking about Germany?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are talking about this on the day that

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Speaker 2: Texas just announced a fun new law. Yeah, this is

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Speaker 2: this is like, you know, Henry's wrong about a lot

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Speaker 2: of stuff. His father is also wrong, but for a

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Speaker 2: much sadder resent.

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Speaker 3: I guess there's a psychic gene in the family. I

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Speaker 3: see us being tolerant for generation. Germany will be a

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Speaker 3: watchword for tolerance. We will be a bastard for all types. Oh,

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Speaker 3: poor buddy. Yeah, so he's Uh.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting because like the Zionist movement is rising in

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Speaker 2: this time, and Kissinger's family rejects this wholeheartedly because they're

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Speaker 2: so German right, like, they don't they don't want to

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Speaker 2: ever leave. So obviously the Nazi party rises consistently through

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Speaker 2: Henry's childhood. Firth was initially safe from this. Just a

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Speaker 2: few months after Hines is born. In September of twenty three,

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Speaker 2: the Nazis and other far right organizations hold a German

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Speaker 2: Day in Nuremberg. Several caravans of them passed through Firth,

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Speaker 2: sort of like Nazis do today in a lot of places.

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Speaker 2: And you know, they were looking for a fight when

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Speaker 2: they drove through. They went through first because it's the

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Speaker 2: town where you can get a fight, and they got one.

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Speaker 2: This is like right after Hintonary is born, a mob

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Speaker 2: of brown Shirts are assaulted by a hundred strong crowd screaming,

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Speaker 2: killed him and down with Hitler, which is prenny.

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Speaker 3: Let's end the story there.

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Speaker 5: I love it.

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Speaker 2: It's a great and it's the tale of Henry Kissinger,

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Speaker 2: a kid who was a baby when some dudes did

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Speaker 2: some rad stuff. So Firth was integrated enough that heines

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Speaker 2: initially attended a public school with Christian classmates, which was

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Speaker 2: not common for Jewish kids in this time. Yeah, he's

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Speaker 2: like going to school with other like kids who are

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Speaker 2: not Jewish. Eventually his dad puts him in his private school,

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Speaker 2: but that's also an integrated private school. So while his

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Speaker 2: education is secular, his family's very strict Orthodox and did

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Speaker 2: Hebrew school, which he hated. I found a quote from

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Speaker 2: another Jewish guy who grew up in Firth at the

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Speaker 2: same time that gives an idea as to why Henry

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Speaker 2: was not a big fan of his early religious education.

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Speaker 3: Quote.

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Speaker 2: Religion was a study and not a pleasant one, a

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Speaker 2: lesson taught soullessly by a soulless old man. Even the

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Speaker 2: day I see his evil conceited old face in my dreams.

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Speaker 2: He thrashed formulas into us antiquated Hebrew prayers that we

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Speaker 2: translated mechanically without any actual knowledge of the language. What

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Speaker 2: he taught was paltry, dead, mummified, and that I think

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Speaker 2: is broadly in line with how Henry feels. Because he's

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Speaker 2: not well, doesn't grow up very religious. So Henry is

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Speaker 2: is a little kid, you know, he does a lot

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Speaker 2: of religion stuff, but as he grows older, he rejects

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Speaker 2: his father's passion for faith and his dad's interests in

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Speaker 2: classical music and theater. Instead, Henry Kissinger falls in love

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Speaker 2: with soccer. He is a huge soccer head.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, happening.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow.

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Speaker 2: Firth has like a locally renowned team. They're one of

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Speaker 2: the best teams in jury many and so like their kids' teams,

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Speaker 2: which are feeders into this whatever team are very competitive too.

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Speaker 2: Henry starts playing in a youth league when he's six

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Speaker 2: years old, and he later recalled quote, I wasn't really

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Speaker 2: very good, though I took the game seriously.

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Speaker 3: But now what about soccer? We should talk about that?

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Speaker 6: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Sorry.

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Speaker 2: So his real prowess early on was in strategy, as

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Speaker 2: this quote from Niall Ferguson's Kissinger, a book named Kissinger

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Speaker 2: like the guy makes clear. Though no great athlete, Heinz

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Speaker 2: Kissinger was already a shrewd tactician, devising for his team

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Speaker 2: a system that, as as it turns out, is the

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Speaker 2: way the Italians play soccer. The system was to drive

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Speaker 2: the other team nuts by not letting them score by

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Speaker 2: keeping so many people back as defenders. It's very hard

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Speaker 2: to score when ten players are lined up in front

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Speaker 2: of the goal. So immediately Henry Kissinger, as a kid,

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Speaker 2: is like, you know what will help us win and

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Speaker 2: also make this game no fun at all?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we need to poison Henry, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 3: Firebombs the holmes. We know what to do. Keeper. I

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Speaker 3: know we are.

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Speaker 5: Six, but we will park the bus. There will be

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Speaker 5: no joy in soccer.

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Speaker 3: It remove the keeper's hands. He is.

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Speaker 2: He is, as a six year old, doing the soccer

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Speaker 2: equivalent of carpet bombing. So he gets so into soccer

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Speaker 2: that he starts to neglect his studies and his father

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Speaker 2: actually bans him from playing for a while. The older

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Speaker 2: he gets, Henry has more and more conflicts with his dad,

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Speaker 2: a thing that no one else has ever experienced. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: he would regularly, after fighting with his father, bicycle over

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Speaker 2: to the home of a friend who later recalled he

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Speaker 2: liked being with us. It seems to me he had

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Speaker 2: a problem with his father, if I'm not mistaken, he

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Speaker 2: was afraid of him because he was a very pedantic man.

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Speaker 2: His father was always checking Hines's homework and kept a

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Speaker 2: close watch on him. Heines told me more than once

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Speaker 2: that he couldn't discuss anything with his father, especially not girls.

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Speaker 2: So his dad's not like hitting him or anything. He's

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Speaker 2: just like really really annoying to him and.

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Speaker 3: Just like a bit and just like pay attention to

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Speaker 3: your studies beyond anything else. Yeah, I think I like

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Speaker 3: this girl, Like, well, she doesn't. She's not going to

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Speaker 3: the same school the focus Henry Focus.

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Speaker 4: Well yeah, and he's clearly a dick who's like, you know,

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Speaker 4: you can't be a professional soccer player at eight, you

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Speaker 4: have to go to school.

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Speaker 3: Like he's clearly an asshole.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean he's definitely the villain of the story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no doubt, no doubt.

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Speaker 2: So Henry is magnetic to women from a well girls

379
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Speaker 2: at this point from a very young age.

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Speaker 3: What in the fuck is happening I know, it's really weird.

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Speaker 3: It's weird.

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Speaker 2: And this is the quotes about you know, girls really

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Speaker 2: liking him at this age come from his father. But

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Speaker 2: like this also happens when he's in his forties and

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Speaker 2: the secretary of State. So I'm going to say his

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Speaker 2: father's probably telling the truth.

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Speaker 3: I mean, at no point have I seen any version

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Speaker 3: of Henry Kissinger. We're like, man, I mean, it is

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Speaker 3: weird that got memory hold because there were there were

390
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Speaker 3: New York Times stories about how much women like Henry

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Speaker 3: Kissinger because he looks like a lump of clay you

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Speaker 3: could mold into anything potentially that would be looked good.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: No, no, but.

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Speaker 2: It's it's weird. I mean, yeah, he's the guy. Like, yeah,

396
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Speaker 2: we'll talk about some of the things he said about

397
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Speaker 2: sexuality later. I know you're all getting real excited for

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Speaker 2: that episode.

399
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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

400
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Speaker 2: At one point, one of his friends was actually ordered

401
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Speaker 2: not to hang out with him because he had quote

402
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Speaker 2: earned a reputation as a skirt chaser. And this is

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Speaker 2: like when he's nine. Wow, early little Henry cum Rocket Kissinger.

404
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:41,600
Speaker 7: The first time sex was nine, So you know, like

405
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Speaker 7: at this point he's rebelling against the family religion, he's

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Speaker 7: hanging out with girls, he's playing a hell of a

407
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Speaker 7: lot of soccer.

408
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,119
Speaker 2: Which seems like a decent childhood. But obviously you know

409
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Speaker 2: the Nazis. So in the mid twenties, the German nation

410
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,720
Speaker 2: goes on strike against some shit. France was doing Versailles stuff.

411
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Speaker 2: We don't need to get into it. Inflation goes crazy, right,

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Speaker 2: this is the wheel arrows full of cash time. This

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Speaker 2: hurts the Kissinger family badly because if you're like, if

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Speaker 2: you're a private laborer, if you're working for a private company,

415
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,400
Speaker 2: you can generally like strike and organize to get your

416
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,359
Speaker 2: salary adjusted to deal with inflation somewhat like, it's still bad,

417
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Speaker 2: but it's less bad. If you're a public servant, you

418
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 2: don't get shit. Your salary stays the same while inflation

419
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Speaker 2: jumps up. So this is really a disaster for the

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Speaker 2: Kissinger family, and of course economic trouble coincides with a

421
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 2: constant acceleration of far right violence. Later, as an adult,

422
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 2: Kissinger would note without emotion that he was somewhat regularly

423
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Speaker 2: chased through the streets and beaten up by Nazi thugs

424
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Speaker 2: as a child. Yeah, that's tough. No punch lines no,

425
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Speaker 2: no punchlines. But there is something weird about that because

426
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 2: he's talked about this a few times, but every time

427
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,120
Speaker 2: he talks about this, it is so that he can

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Speaker 2: emphatically state that this part of his life had no

429
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Speaker 2: impact on him.

430
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Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're really weird, it's very strong literal impact

431
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Speaker 3: of fists had no impact upon him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

433
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

434
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Speaker 2: In nineteen fifty eight, he declared, quote, my life in

435
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Speaker 2: Firth seems to have passed without leaving any deeper impressions.

436
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 2: You don't get to say that, by the way. Yeah,

437
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 2: I feel like you don't like. I feel like you don't.

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Speaker 3: I feel like I said that to a shrink once

439
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 3: about my parents' divorce and then wept. Yeah. I didn't

440
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 3: do anything anything. I mean, what's this, what's his flood

441
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 3: coming out of it? And it's like Yeah.

442
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy four, when discussing the times he was

443
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 2: beaten in the streets by Nazis, he insisted to a

444
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 2: reporter quote that part of my childhood was not a

445
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 2: key to anything. I was not consciously unhappy. I was

446
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 2: not acutely aware of what was going on for children.

447
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 2: These things are not that serious. It is fashionable now

448
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 2: to explain everything psychoanalytically. But let me tell you, the

449
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 2: political persecutions of my childhood are not what control my life,

450
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 2: which is really interesting, right So I know.

451
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 3: Right, like I'm sure the reporters like, I'm ready to

452
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 3: ask follow ups whatever. He stops talking. Yeah, you're not

453
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 3: supposed to remember from before ten anyway. I mean, I wouldn't.

454
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 5: That's how I can kill I went not at nine.

455
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 5: I don't feel anything.

456
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 3: It is.

457
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, I got assaulted by a Nazi

458
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: when I was thirty three, and it left a mark here.

459
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 4: But anytime it just growing up in that environment without

460
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 4: being assaulted is going to leave psychological damage.

461
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 2: If your parents kick you completely safe from street violence,

462
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 2: it would it could not. Yeah, And it's like, Henry,

463
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 2: this is the only time I'm going to speak sympathetically

464
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 2: to you.

465
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 3: But it's fine. If being beaten by Nazis as a

466
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 3: child left a mark on it's the only time you

467
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 3: want to Matt damon him what Robin Williams are Yeah,

468
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 3: like it's okay, man, Okay, it happened.

469
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,400
Speaker 2: It's interesting the way he the ways he explains why

470
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 2: this didn't leave any mark on him are very interesting,

471
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: and I want to quote from Henry Kissinger in two

472
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 2: thousand and four. Now, I experienced the impact of Nazism,

473
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,640
Speaker 2: and it was very unpleasant, but it did not interfere

474
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 2: in my friendship with Jewish people of my age, so

475
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 2: that I did not find it traumatic. I have resisted

476
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 2: the psychiatric explanations which argue that I developed a passion

477
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 2: for order over justice and that I translated it into

478
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 2: profound interpretations of the international system. I wasn't concerned with

479
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 2: the international system. I was concerned with the standing of

480
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 2: the football team of the town in which I lived.

481
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 3: Which you can't do both.

482
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 2: You can't pay attention yeah, soccer, obviously, as no one thinks,

483
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 2: Henry that as an eight year old, you were like, well,

484
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 2: this is going to impact the way that I believe

485
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 2: state power should be used when I'm Secretary of State in.

486
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 3: Several decades an advised addiction.

487
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 2: Just like if you have a car accident as a kid,

488
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: You're not thinking, well, this is going to make me

489
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 2: unable to let other people touch me when I'm thirty three.

490
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 3: Right, you know I'll hate freeway merging.

491
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like obviously, man, and I don't know, like there's

492
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: a degree to which in terms of this is the

493
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: period in which you can be sympathetic to him. I

494
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 2: do think there's probably something to be said that if

495
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: you have this childhood, maybe you don't want to give

496
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 2: the Nazis anything, you know, even the car like this

497
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,479
Speaker 2: left an impact on me, right, because like, fuck him,

498
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to say that it had an influence

499
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 2: on me, which I get.

500
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 4: No. Having grown up in a traumatic, you know, sort

501
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 4: of childhood, you can shut it down and tell yourself

502
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 4: that you're fine.

503
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 5: Like you he The way he survived it.

504
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 4: Was to to shut his emotions down a little bit

505
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 4: and tell himself that he was fine when it actually

506
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 4: is by far probably the most traumatic thing there, and

507
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 4: and created a fucking monster because he didn't get any

508
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 4: psychological help.

509
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 3: I'm like, naturally, it is not nature versus nurture. I

510
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 3: would have killed just as many people, been a despicable

511
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 3: piece of shit either the way. I don't judge my mity.

512
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: So as the twenties rolled to an end, the political

513
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 2: situation in the Weimar Republic gets correspondingly more dire. In

514
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty five, during a Nazi rally in Firth, Hitler

515
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: himself had called it the citadel of the Jews. The

516
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 2: local response at that point in twenty five is overwhelmingly negative,

517
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: and in nineteen twenty seven only two hundred people in

518
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 2: Firth were members of the Nazi Party. Hitler visited the

519
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 2: city again in nineteen twenty eight, to little effect. The

520
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 2: party just got six point six percent of the vote

521
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 2: in local elections that year. But the Great Depression rescues

522
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: the end of the twenties rescues the Nazis flagging poll members.

523
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 2: As firsts economy collapses, people grow more willing to listen

524
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: to the fascists. In the nineteen thirty elections, Nazis surged

525
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: from two point six percent of the vote nationwide to

526
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 2: eighteen point three percent. In Firth, they won twenty three

527
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 2: point six percent of the vote, which is four times

528
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: better than they'd done two years earlier and very frightening

529
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 2: for a lot of relevant reasons to today. Yes, Yeah,

530
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: Nazi electoral successes continue to pace the next year, and

531
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: by nineteen thirty three, more than twenty two thousand Firthers

532
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 2: were Nazi voters. I want to quote from Niall Ferguson's

533
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 2: book again. On April ninth, nineteen thirty two, fifteen SA

534
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: men were set upon by Iron Front members as they

535
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 2: left the pro not Yellow Lion pub. Two months later,

536
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 2: Nazi supporter Fritz Reinngruber was beaten up for being a swastikist.

537
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 2: The same fate befell another Nazi caught selling the NSDAP

538
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 2: newspaper the volkas Schebeobacter. The police watched helplessly on the

539
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: evening of July thirtieth as a mob threw potatoes and

540
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: stones at a Nazi motorcade going from the Firth Airport

541
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 2: to the Nuremberg Stadium. The car carrying Hitler himself was

542
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 2: among the vehicles. But just a year after, Hitler's car

543
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,479
Speaker 2: gets pelted. After the Nazis begin to consolidate power, when

544
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 2: Hitler's the chancellor, the mood is very different. On March third,

545
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: there's another torchlit parade by the Nazis through Firth, and

546
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: on the evening of March ninth a crowd of between

547
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: ten and twelve thousand people's gathers outside one of the

548
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 2: bars there to watch the raising of the red Nazi flag.

549
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 2: So you know it gets bad pretty fast.

550
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 3: Can I just flag the person who brought the potatoes

551
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 3: to the rock throwing event. Yeah, I feel like he

552
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 3: turned first. Yeah, how were doing rocks? Oh?

553
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 2: I know that was a drag of rock? Those look

554
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 2: like potatoes. Now, lord, you know what I'm going to

555
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 2: say it right now. If that guy had brought rocks,

556
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: he might have killed Hitler. Could we kind have avoided.

557
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 3: Right the guy? Yeah, for want of a rock? World

558
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 3: War two? Oh you guys, see my potato hit that car?

559
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: It really smushed it.

560
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 2: I look, mas, I do left the idea that he

561
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: also boiled it before.

562
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well I don't want to look weird.

563
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: So Lewis Kissinger lost his job teaching once the Nazis

564
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 2: came to power. Henry again, who'd never gotten along with

565
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: his dad, watches his father collapse into what biographer Thomas

566
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 2: Allen Schwartz describes as a quote state of immobility and

567
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: psychological depression. Lewis withdrew into his study. According to Henry's

568
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: brother Walter, while the world outside veered closer to nightmare.

569
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 2: In his book Henry Kissinger and American Power Schwartz, Kissinger

570
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: and his brothers saw the progressive segregation, isolation, and humiliation

571
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: the Jews of Firth experienced, even their attempt to watch

572
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: soccer games came with the risk of their being beaten

573
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: by young Nazi thugs. The world of Heinz's childhood rapidly collapsed,

574
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 2: and his parents and the older generation of Firth's Jews

575
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: could not protect their young from the hatred around them.

576
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: After the passage of the Nuremberg Laws in nineteen thirty five,

577
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: Kissinger's mother began to look for a way to leave Germany.

578
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 2: A cousin in the United States was willing to provide

579
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 2: the financial support that would allow the Kissingers to immigrate.

580
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: In August and of nineteen thirty eight, after a last

581
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: visit with Paula's elderly parents in Ludershausen, where Heines saw

582
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: his father cry for the first time, the family headed

583
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: to New York. Only three months later, during Christalnacht, the

584
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: synagogue and Firth, like hundreds of others throughout Germany, burned

585
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: to the ground and a knight of orchestrated violence.

586
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 3: Free so months, yeah, I mean that is crazy.

587
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: When Henry Leive's Firth there are two thousand Jews in

588
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: the Jewish community at the end of World War Two,

589
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: there are forty Oh my god, yeah.

590
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 3: And three months is so? I mean that is barely meanly.

591
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 3: That's like they stay as late as they possibly care. Right, Yeah,

592
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 3: at least.

593
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: Thirteen members of Kissinger's family would perish in the Holocaust. Obviously,

594
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 2: it being what it is. I don't know that you

595
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: can it's not super easy to get exact numbers. But like,

596
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: his family is as devastated as you would expect of

597
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: a German Jewish family. And he does acknowledge for the

598
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 2: first time, he admits that like some part of this

599
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: had an influence on him. It was moving away from

600
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 2: Germany and like going across the world to the United States,

601
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: and he says, and this is I think him being

602
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: somewhat honest, that the deepest impact of all this was quote,

603
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: all the things that had seemed secure and stable collapsed,

604
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: and many of the people that once had that one

605
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: had considered the steady examples suddenly were thrown into enormous

606
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,959
Speaker 2: turmoil themselves and into fantastic insecurities. People will say, we'll

607
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: talk about this later. He's very much an order obsessed guy,

608
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: and like, okay, yeah, I get it, Like I get

609
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: where that came from, you know.

610
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 4: I mean, that's very common for that happened in you know, Chile,

611
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 4: in other places where it all falls apart into authoritarianism.

612
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 4: There's a lot of people who are like, I just

613
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 4: want it to be the same.

614
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yeah, you hear that all the time here too.

615
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 3: I mean, not like that. Obviously, it's far it was

616
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 3: far more dire. But there are a lot of people

617
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: I know who keep saying that shit here, who keep

618
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 3: being like, I just wanted to go back to normal.

619
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 3: And you're just like, that ship is fucking sailed.

620
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: That is not you know, yeah, it never does, it

621
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 2: never can, but we all do it. Like even the

622
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: kind of like obsession with nineties nostalgia is evidence of that,

623
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: and not because the nineties were like a perfect time,

624
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: but because like, yeah, you didn't. You weren't aware of

625
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: how fucked like like Henry, like your dad hadn't collapsed

626
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: into like an unable to handle him.

627
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: You're just likes too aggressive and yeah, oh my god,

628
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 3: we don't have money.

629
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, you went from oh my gosh, you know,

630
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,959
Speaker 2: the OJ Simpson trial, what a mess too? Well, now

631
00:30:59,000 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: what plague has killed him?

632
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 3: And people, oh my god, it's better give me that

633
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 3: time capsule.

634
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 4: It's it's so funny that parallels because I'm i literally

635
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 4: am writing a dollar right now, and and the guy

636
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 4: turns into an authoritarian and his dad shut himself in

637
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 4: his house and isolated.

638
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 3: It's it's so weird how these things.

639
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 2: I mean, if you I mean, just to continue off

640
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: of that, Dave Hitler's dad dies when he's a little kid,

641
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: pledges the family finances and situation into insecurity and chaos. Yeah. Yeah,

642
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: it's when when something that seemed stable from your early

643
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: childhood collapses. Perhaps it has an.

644
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 3: Influence, yes, by what Kissinger said, by what Kissinger said,

645
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 3: But you know what, Henry Kissinger loves the products and

646
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 3: services that support this podcast.

647
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 2: Look, Henry is one of the few VIPs on It's

648
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: Island where you can hunt children anytime he wants. He

649
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: gets a free three bedroom apartment on the child hunting Island. Sophie.

650
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: That yeah, because for some fucking reason, he is still alive.

651
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 4: Yes, well, let's be honest here. This is essentially as

652
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 4: eulogy because when we finish this podcast and it's published,

653
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 4: Kissingers should die.

654
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: It's possible. I'm planning a dark occult ritual using my

655
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: own blood and a candle I bought in Mexico to deal,

656
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: Like I mean, I'm not gonna say I'm not doing it.

657
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's anyway.

658
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: Here's here's some ads. Oh we're back. Have you guys

659
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 2: gone to the island where you can hunt little kids

660
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: for sport?

661
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 3: Yes, it's amazing. It's also fresh. It's very the brisk,

662
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: expect to be that fresh. So good.

663
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: So Kissinger today has i Kissinger today has idyllic recollections

664
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 2: of his early years in the United States. He often

665
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: talks about walking down the streets of his new neighborhoods,

666
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 2: seeing a group of boys walking towards him and crossing

667
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: the street because he's you know, he's afraid he's going

668
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: to get beat. Yeah, and then he would realize like, oh,

669
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: that doesn't happen here, which obviously it did.

670
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 3: Those boys. Yeah, they're just wearing brown shirts because they

671
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: like brown.

672
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, Henry, this is a country where some people

673
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: who wear brown aren't Nazis. Some of them are, some

674
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: of them are, Henry.

675
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

676
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

677
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 2: Different did not mean easy. Though the Kissinger spent their

678
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: first years in a crowded Bronx apartment living with family.

679
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: Lewis got sick and even more depressed. Paula had to

680
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: take control of the family and handle shit. She became

681
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 2: a caterer and started a business that became the family's lifeline.

682
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: The neighborhood they lived in was dominated by Orthodox Jewish

683
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 2: families with a familiar background. A lot of them were

684
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: from other parts of Germany, and so the Kissingers benefited

685
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 2: from the help of several community organizations and getting back

686
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 2: on their feet. He benefits a lot from the fact that,

687
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: you know, there's not really a government support network, but

688
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: the other Jewish refugees who have come over from Europe

689
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 2: have built support networks to make it easier for new

690
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: folks coming. Henry's teen years were a mix of school

691
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: in synagogue. He failed his first driving test but excelled

692
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 2: at soccer, and he grew to admire many aspects of

693
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 2: his new home, including quote American technology, the American tempo

694
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: of work, and American freedom, which I might say is

695
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,439
Speaker 2: in direct opposition to the American tempo of work.

696
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: But whatever.

697
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: Kissinger was frustrated to though by the casual approach to

698
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 2: life that he saw in his new peers. He thought

699
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 2: they were superficial. He wrote at the time that quote

700
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 2: no youth my age has any kind of spiritual problem

701
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:57,280
Speaker 2: that he seriously concerns himself with which, well, yeah, okay, Henry,

702
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 2: all right, Hank fair I you come over from Nazi

703
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 2: Germany and you're like people here seem carefree and.

704
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 8: Shallow and yeah, and your schooling was basically like some

705
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 8: old dude being like you did, right, you know, like

706
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 8: you're gonna be like geez, these guys are really not

707
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 8: focused on what matters.

708
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

709
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 4: Look, I don't want to I don't want to be

710
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 4: too critical, but New York used a little bit of Nazism,

711
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 4: you know what I mean.

712
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: It's a little loose, good lord.

713
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: So because of all of this, this is this is

714
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 2: why one of his biographers, Schwartz, describes young Henry as

715
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 2: socially inept. He's not not great at talking to it's

716
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: not great at dealing with his new peers. He did

717
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: start dating again, though, first a girl who was a

718
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 2: refugee from nearby Nuremberg, but most of his focus was

719
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 2: on schoolwork in soccer. Because you graduated George Washington High

720
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 2: School and started at the City College of New York.

721
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 2: He took classes at night so he could work during

722
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 2: the day at a brush cleaning factory. Some of his

723
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: cousins owned the.

724
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 3: Brushes failth they boys keep going. It's the most amazing

725
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 3: like old timey job ever. I mean, it's basically like

726
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 3: all I can picture is just like the jobs are

727
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 3: either like pressing sheets or washing brushes. These brushes I'm

728
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 3: not going to clear themselves, gentlemen, how many times do

729
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 3: I have to tell you?

730
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 4: Well?

731
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: In the corollary is some mom being like, Billy, you

732
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 2: didn't take your sister's brushes to the cleaning shop. Now,

733
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: it's very funny. Everything old timey is funny. People are

734
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: going to think this in the future about I don't know,

735
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 2: having water. So at this point Himry's ambition in life

736
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: was to get quote a nice job, likely in accounting.

737
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: One biographer noted, quote nothing that happened to Kissinger during

738
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 2: those years encouraged him to read more widely. His historical

739
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 2: interests were as underdeveloped when he was twenty as when

740
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 2: he arrived in New York as a boy of fifteen,

741
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 2: which is the first normal thing about him that like, yeah, dude,

742
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 2: you know whatever, like he's a kid. Yeah, we're about

743
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: to get to the studio. Fifty four years. Yes, so

744
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 2: World War II happens, starts for the United States, at

745
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 2: least it started elsewhere a bit earlier, but for the US,

746
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: it's right, we'll do it when Henry is twenty one.

747
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 2: He did not initially feel called to volunteer for service,

748
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: but when he got his draft notice in nineteen forty three,

749
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: he complied and joined the roughly sixteen million Americans who

750
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: became soldiers during this period.

751
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 3: And if it.

752
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 2: Weren't for this, Henry Kissinger probably never would have been

753
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 2: a figure of historical importance. Again, he just kind of

754
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,280
Speaker 2: wanted to be an accountant, but being drafted successfully disrupted

755
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: his plans for a quiet, boring life and thrust him

756
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 2: into the world that says it all. Yeah, it's not

757
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 2: maybe don't draft this guy.

758
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, don't right care right? I could be like

759
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 3: you don't. I did not actually see your venmo this year,

760
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 3: so the process.

761
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a future where he just has really strong

762
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 2: opinions on W two's.

763
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly ten ninety nine. But I feel like it

764
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 3: was actually more like W four mm.

765
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, or he does like a Bernie madeoff thing. But

766
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 2: either way, it's a much better future than the one

767
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: we got. I will take the madoff ending for him

768
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: for sure.

769
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. Fine, So we have.

770
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 2: Letters that Henry sent to his brother Walter during training.

771
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 2: He purported to like the quote middle Americans he met there,

772
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 2: but warned his sibling, don't become too friendly with the

773
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 2: scum you invariably meet there.

774
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: Hell, hell he did.

775
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 5: He did pick up all something from the Nazis.

776
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 3: He's a little bit right.

777
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 9: Yeah.

778
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: He also he also advised against having sex with the

779
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 2: quote filthy syphilis infected camp followers, which is too specific

780
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 2: to have been random. I think the Kissinger had a

781
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 2: bad experience with the camp follow.

782
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 3: Like everyone that's camp has syphilis.

783
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 5: Every girl I fucked had syphilis.

784
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: I thought one girl one of them has it. Yeah,

785
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 3: that's what the notation zero of the syphilis epidemic. Surrounded

786
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 3: by counselors.

787
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 2: So the Army administered a series of tests, which Kissinger

788
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: excelled at, and he earned entrance into a special training

789
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 2: program that sent particularly bright soldiers to college. He received

790
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 2: his American citizenship in nineteen forty three while he was

791
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: at Lafayette College in Pennsylvania. The program lasted just six months,

792
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 2: and Henry finished twelve engineering classes. During his off hours,

793
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: he would hitch hike home and see his girlfriend. He

794
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 2: was a brilliant student, recognized by his roommates as the

795
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: quote brainiest of a very intelligent class. One classmate recalled

796
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 2: he didn't read books. He ate them with his eyes,

797
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: his fingers, and with his squirming in the chair or bed,

798
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: and with his mumbling criticism.

799
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 3: He was more as salt if I've been other than

800
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 3: he sounds like a book. This is really a weird

801
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 3: way to describe it. Dude. It's kind of what but

802
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 3: the way he looks now is like he eats books.

803
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of had like a visual like oh reaction

804
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: to that, to that line, like, oh, cringe.

805
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: I now kind of want the story of that classmate, Like, yeah,

806
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: caused you to describe a dude reading books that way?

807
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 3: Well, in my college, I hate analogies. I just would

808
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 3: just just devour them. I need them like a synonym.

809
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 2: You know, His professors would use Henry to explain complicated

810
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: concepts to the other soldiers, and for a brief period

811
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 2: of time, he had status and respect, which he'd begun

812
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 2: to crave as a young man. His time in this

813
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: program was cut short because you know, d day we

814
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: decide America is like we're going to do us a

815
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: normandy landing, and the army is like, well, we probably

816
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 2: don't need smart people for that, so let's police kids

817
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 2: out of the class and show how to get shot

818
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 2: by you guys.

819
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 3: We actually want to talk to you over here about

820
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 3: something totally different. Guy. No, no, not you, not you, Chad,

821
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 3: you stay right there, Jed, talk about these other guys.

822
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 3: Thank you, good luck.

823
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 2: So Henry and his classmates get sent back to basic training,

824
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: where the drill sergeants, according to Henry took glee and

825
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 2: tormenting the college kids, which I don't know, probably true,

826
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 2: while he was preparing to go overseas. And this is

827
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: what my grandpa was doing in World War Two. And

828
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 2: I hope he bullied Henry Kissinger. I hope my grandpa

829
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 2: got a chance to give Henry Kissinger some shit fingers.

830
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 3: He did, right, he did, but he did absolutely so

831
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 3: while he was preparing to go overseas.

832
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 2: His biographer Schwartz writes, even in the misery of Camp Claiborne, however,

833
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 2: Kissinger stood out, selected by his commanders to provide soldiers

834
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 2: with a weekly briefing on war news. Although he did

835
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 2: the job well, Kissinger was more impressed with another older

836
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: German refugee in an American uniform Fritz Kramer, who came

837
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 2: to Camp Claiborne in May nineteen forty four to speak

838
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 2: about the meaning of war. After Kramer's impassion talk, kiss

839
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: wrote him a note, Dear Private Kramer, I heard like

840
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: sorry basically yeah, yeah, he literally like it's like I

841
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: liked what you had to say.

842
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 3: Can I help you? Like, that's literally what the note is. Scared.

843
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. Kramer responded almost immediately to the simple fan letter,

844
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 2: returning a few days later to seek Kissinger out for

845
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: conversation in dinner, insistingly speak in German, not English. The

846
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: Lutheran Kramer later said that he was taken with this

847
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: quote little Jewish refugee he had met, who he believed

848
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 2: as yet knows nothing, but already he understands everything. Wow,

849
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 2: that's an interesting way to describe him.

850
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 3: It sounds like, yeah, and this guy Kramer is Kramer

851
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 3: is a Prussian, which I don't know the degree to

852
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:47,959
Speaker 3: which that that means anything to a lot of people,

853
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 3: the Prussians.

854
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 2: So there was most of the resistance to the Nazis

855
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: was from the left. Once the Nazis got into power,

856
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 2: the resistance to the Nazis that meant anything was Prussian

857
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: not because they were good dudes, but because they were

858
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: way too conservative for Hitler. They were like, well, we

859
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 2: want to fight on takeover all of Europe, but like

860
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 2: with a kaiser who has royal blood, not this like

861
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: gross little corporal and stuff. And it's complicated because like

862
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 2: a lot of those Prussians got murdered by the Nazis,

863
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 2: And as a general rule, your sympathy is with the

864
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 2: people who get murdered by the Nazis, but it's also like, yeah,

865
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: you got murdered by the Rai Nazis for the wrong reasons.

866
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 3: Right right, yeah right. They were like we have one

867
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 3: small note, but everything else is working great for it.

868
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,439
Speaker 2: They were the guys who were like Hitler's bad because

869
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 2: he's not going to win the war against Russia, right wow, okay, yeah.

870
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 2: So this guy, Fritz Kramer would be, in Henry's words quote,

871
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 2: the greatest single influence on my formative years, since Fritz

872
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 2: was a Prussian conservative. So for an idea of how

873
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 2: fucking German Fritz Kramer is, he wears a monocle to

874
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 2: make his wow I work harder to make his weak

875
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: eye wow, Like, oh my god.

876
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 3: Oh I'm the craziest asshole ever.

877
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 2: Wow, And you know, Fritz hated the Nazis, which good good.

878
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: He also hated the Communists, which you have to think

879
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: there is some some some suss stuff there. Yeah, you know,

880
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 2: Communists in a mixed bag like everybody. But I don't

881
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 2: think he's very nuanced about it. Schwartz also credits Fritz

882
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 2: with expressing quote a respect for international law and emphasis

883
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 2: on the moral basis of civilization. And what Fritz Kramer

884
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: means by the moral basis of civilization is not the

885
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 2: same as what.

886
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 3: I think maybe you or I might need. Yeah, okay,

887
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 3: now that Yeah.

888
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: I think the most important influence Kramer had was he's

889
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: Kramer is very conservative, and he Henry is kind of

890
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: a natural conservative. And Kramer really reinforces this feeling in Henry,

891
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 2: which is expressed by a growing sort of revulsion in

892
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 2: Kissinger towards any ideas outside of the political median right,

893
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 2: which you get why he has a tendency towards this.

894
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: If your life, if your childhood is this like battle

895
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 2: of ex streams in your hometown, I get why you

896
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: would kind of veer towards the middle. And this guy

897
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 2: Kramer really turns that up to eleven in him. One

898
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: write up in The New Yorker notes quote he warn't

899
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 2: Kissinger not to emulate cleverling intellectuals and their bloodless cost

900
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 2: benefit analyzes. Believing Kissinger to be musically attuned to history,

901
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 2: he told him, only if you do not calculate, will

902
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 2: you really have the freedom which distinguishes you from the

903
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 2: little people.

904
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 3: Oh so that's bad. So that's gonna go really bad.

905
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 3: I mean you really are like, I mean, this is

906
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 3: his Morpheus. We're just starting to be like, Okay, this

907
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 3: is And by the way, have you thought about maybe

908
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 3: just losing the glasses and just going with the Wand

909
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 3: that is so much like punish your weak eye. You

910
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,439
Speaker 3: much punished a week, even when it comes to your eyes. Yeah, yeah,

911
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 3: he is.

912
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: He has found a kid who like has a problematic

913
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 2: history of starting fires and is now teaching him how

914
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 2: to build a fertilizer boss. Yeah.

915
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a bad influence. Yeah, and it matches us

916
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 3: so so but have you ever seen a zippo?

917
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 4: Yeah? Great.

918
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 2: So Kissinger finishes training and is deployed with the eighty

919
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 2: fourth entrant for Infantry Division as it moves towards Nazi Europe.

920
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 2: His division sees a decent amount of combat.

921
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 3: He does not.

922
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 2: He's a back ranker. He handles administrative and management tasks,

923
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: and he finds the power and authority he gets through

924
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: his time in the service intoxicating. Though he never again

925
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: he doesn't fight directly, he does earn a bronze star

926
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 2: for a valor because he helps catch and take out

927
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 2: a Gestapo sleeper cell, primarily due to the fact that like,

928
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 2: he's just you know, a very observant dude. In nineteen

929
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 2: forty five, he participates in the liberation of a concentration camp.

930
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 2: Alam ahl em, I'm not one hundred percent sean how

931
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 2: to pronounce it. One prisoner at the camp remembered him

932
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: as the young American who announced you are free. For Kissinger,

933
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 2: the overwhelming memory of this experience with seeing inmates he

934
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: described as being barely recognizable as humans and feeling the

935
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: instinct to feed them before learning that some were so

936
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,919
Speaker 2: starved that solid food would kill them shortly thereafter. Yeah,

937
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: I mean, one thing you gotta say, he does not like,

938
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: he's not a sheltered upbringing, and you, I.

939
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 3: Mean, like you would be like, oh, maybe that could

940
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 3: be the influence that made him be like oh, you

941
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 3: know you can. There's good you can provide, like provide

942
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 3: the people who are tortured and starved.

943
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: Some you know.

944
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, you could take away from this like, my god,

945
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 4: war is evil and we should do everything we can.

946
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, as opposed to yeah maybe, well, let's see

947
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 3: how it plays out, Dave.

948
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 2: Maybe this is the sixth part behind the Bastards episode

949
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 2: about a cool dude who does nice things. I just

950
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 2: brought you guys here to talk about a chill guy.

951
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 2: So shortly after liberating this concentration camp, Kissinger writes an

952
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: essay on his experience where he asks quote who was

953
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 2: lucky the man who draws circles in the sand and

954
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 2: mumbles I am free? Or the bones that are interred

955
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 2: in the hillside. He concludes from the experience that this

956
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 2: is humanity in the twentieth century. So, I mean an

957
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: understandably bleak take from liberating a concentration cam. Yeah that's fair.

958
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: You know, what is a bad time to move to

959
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 2: an ad plug.

960
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 3: I didn't think you're gonna be brave enough to do this,

961
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 3: but fair enough?

962
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:21,439
Speaker 6: Boy?

963
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 5: Wow, yeah, you know what makes me hungry.

964
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 3: Probably shouldn't go too far down that road. Let the

965
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 3: ads do the talk. Let the ads do the talking.

966
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:37,919
Speaker 5: The ads are going to come and win the same

967
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 5: way the Soviet Union did.

968
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 2: Wave after wave of men into Nazi trenches. Anyway, I

969
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 2: think we lost it. We had it for a minute,

970
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: and there I took it too far, you know, I

971
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 2: took it there.

972
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 3: Here we go.

973
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 2: Oh we're back. So when the war ends, World War two,

974
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 2: you know that is uh. Sergeant Henry Kissinger finds himself

975
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 2: as quote the absolute ruler of a small village named Binsheim.

976
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 3: He enjoys this experience. He really starts to like having power.

977
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 3: One thing that we're.

978
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 4: Getting here is that he adores having power over people.

979
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, he really likes it.

980
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 2: In his letters, he celebrates repeatedly to his family that

981
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 2: he has quote absolute authority to arrest people.

982
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 3: And it's this is this is problematic because of what

983
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 3: he does later.

984
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 2: I will say, if you are a Jewish kid who

985
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: has to flee Germany and then you come back and

986
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 2: get made like the military head of a town that's

987
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 2: full of former Nazis, I get reveling in it a

988
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 2: little bit.

989
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:51,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

990
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 5: Well for me, I'm having beheading tuesdays, if that's me.

991
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. So again, he's not because of what he does later.

992
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 2: This is unsettling, but like it's understandable in the moment. Yeah,

993
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: he appropriates a luxury home and a fancy car, both

994
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 2: of which had to have belonged to some Nazi, which

995
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 2: is like, it's what you do, right.

996
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 3: He gets a butler.

997
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: He brags back to his family that he's a Nazi butler,

998
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 2: a fucking Nazi butler.

999
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 3: For not giving me butter. Yeah, that is that is obvious. Now.

1000
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 2: That said, he's also, to his credit, really aware of

1001
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 2: not wanting the Germans in town to identify this guy

1002
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 2: who is absolute ruler as being Jewish. I think because

1003
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 2: he doesn't want it to make things up problems for

1004
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 2: people whose Jewish people who stay behind in Germany. He

1005
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 2: makes other soldiers refer to him as mister Henry rather

1006
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 2: than by his last name. He's conscious he doesn't want

1007
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 2: them to think quote that the Jews were coming back

1008
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 2: to take revenge. And he had a reputation in general

1009
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 2: as being more objective as a as a ruler in

1010
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: this kind of period than most Jewish veterans in similar positions.

1011
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 2: In general, Henry counciled accommodation in rapprochma with one exception Communists.

1012
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:14,399
Speaker 3: The civil of course, fucking like understandable beer, Yeah yeah,

1013
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 3: the Nazis butmi yeah yeah, And that's literally what happens.

1014
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 2: So the Cold War, you know, early stages in nineteen

1015
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 2: forty six, but already in that period, Kissinger advocates strict

1016
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 2: surveillance of German civilians for left wing sympathies.

1017
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 3: And yeah, that's Nazis just doing like did Yeah, the

1018
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 3: left is due, the left is due. He doesn't want them.

1019
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 2: He also wants to ban Communists from teaching at the

1020
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 2: local schools, which.

1021
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:50,839
Speaker 3: Again is what the fuck?

1022
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 2: He went straight Nazi all of a sudden. Yeah, he's

1023
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 2: he's definite. Well let's say fascists. Let's let's say fascists. Okay, yeah,

1024
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:01,839
Speaker 2: fascist now, yeah, he does a bit.

1025
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 3: He does a bit.

1026
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 2: He starts dating a gentile German girl during this period,

1027
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 2: because again he's not very religious. His letters home to

1028
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 2: his parents though, because they don't like this at all.

1029
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 2: They're they're like, you're losing your your faith, and Henry

1030
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 2: gets very combative with them. He sees them as irrational, writing, quote,

1031
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 2: to me, there is not only right or wrong, but

1032
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 2: many shades in between. The Real tragedies in life are

1033
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 2: not choices between right and wrong, real difficulties, bare difficulties

1034
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 2: of the soul, provoking agonies which you and your world

1035
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 2: of black and white can't begin to comprehend.

1036
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 3: How's the dog? How's the dog? Love you, mom? Love

1037
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 3: you mom? Alsopuffs good.

1038
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 2: Is his.

1039
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 3: And his parents. His parents have their reaction real died

1040
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 3: where they're like, hey, how are you? Hey? It seems

1041
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 3: like the war may have effect on you.

1042
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 5: I've said this ever since you met the mono, but

1043
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 5: you're really intense.

1044
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe maybe all of the things you've seen have

1045
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 2: had an impact on you. And herey response to this

1046
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 2: by getting enraged and saying, not everybody came out of

1047
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 2: this war as a psycho neeurotic.

1048
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,760
Speaker 3: Oh, that shows them. That'll teach them that that's exact.

1049
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 3: That's fine, that's fine, that's exactly right. That's the right

1050
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:20,760
Speaker 3: reaction of a non psycho neurotic.

1051
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 5: When you're when you're screaming, I'm not a psycho neurotic.

1052
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 3: In letters, you're a psycho neurotic. I got from Garland Camp.

1053
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 2: If all they're saying is like, hey, Henry, do you

1054
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: think maybe seeing a concentration camp has left some mental

1055
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 2: scars that you need to like heal from.

1056
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 3: Hey, maybe I should drive that to the toilet. Okay,

1057
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 3: all right, buddy, all right, path We're just we're just

1058
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 3: writing letters here, buddy. We're just writing some letters. That's

1059
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 3: all we're doing. It's one of those things.

1060
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 2: This is a period of time obviously, like every like

1061
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 2: one of the things that causes what happens later in

1062
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 2: American history is that sixteen million Americans go to war

1063
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 2: and a bunch of them get traumatized, and they come

1064
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 2: back to a world where like their dad would always like,

1065
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 2: if you talk about your feelings, I'm going to hit you.

1066
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1067
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 2: Hearry's family doesn't seem to be like that. His parents

1068
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 2: are like, hey, do you want to talk about your feelings?

1069
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 2: And he's like, I'm not crazy.

1070
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1071
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 2: Obviously, obviously, the fact that this is a time in

1072
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 2: which like men don't fucking do therapy does have an

1073
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 2: impact on it. But I think his family's probably more

1074
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 2: understanding than well.

1075
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 3: He also has no I mean even now, he has

1076
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 3: no acknowledgment of like his trauma. So yeah, even in

1077
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 3: the actual moment, I mean, you're probably even more defensive.

1078
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 2: You know.

1079
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1080
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 2: In nineteen forty seven, Kissinger finally decides to leave Germany

1081
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,240
Speaker 2: for the second time. On Fritz Kramer's advice. He applies.

1082
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 2: He applies late to Harvard, and he was accepted, winning

1083
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 2: one of the two national scholarships the school gave New

1084
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 2: Yorkers each year.

1085
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 4: Wow, now, chop trap house did a tournament of evil

1086
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 4: people from Harvard.

1087
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 3: It's a and a Kissinger one. So yeah, that makes sense.

1088
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 2: Oh bo, the IVY League no good at producing bad people.

1089
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 2: Maybe we should look into that one. So one of

1090
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 2: his classmates recalls, and he obviously he does. Like it's

1091
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger. He's very good at school. One of his

1092
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 2: classmates recalls that he quote worked harder and studied more

1093
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: than anybody else on campus.

1094
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 3: He school. He at school.

1095
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 2: He couldn't stop him from shoving pencils.

1096
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 3: In his mouth the campus like Godzilla would have. He

1097
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 3: nearly died.

1098
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 2: He almost died from lead. His studies so absorbed him

1099
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 2: that he ignored the people around him. He made quote

1100
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 2: no lasting friendships with other students. He seemed scarcely aware

1101
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 2: of the extraordinary range of people gathered around him. So

1102
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 2: Kissinger's ideology evolved along the lines Kramer had started him

1103
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: off on. He agreed with Girtha I believe, as the

1104
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 2: name of the German philosopher that if he quote had

1105
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 2: to choose between justice and disorder on the one hand,

1106
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 2: an injustice in order on the other, I would always

1107
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 2: choose the latter.

1108
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: So, well, there we go.

1109
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 3: He's made his choice very telling, Like we know, we know,

1110
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 3: we get up. Yeah, it's just nice to know where

1111
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 3: like around the time, Like, okay, so he was pretty defined. Okay,

1112
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 3: So Henry, you know some other people who thought that

1113
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 3: order was more important than justice. Yeah, they had an

1114
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 3: impact on your child. Yeah yeah, no shit, yeah, but yeah,

1115
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 3: it's just such a too.

1116
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 4: It's a strange thing that it's so conscious, like he yeah,

1117
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:28,800
Speaker 4: he's so completely aware of it.

1118
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like he's like a psychopath. He might be.

1119
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I think if you're I try to do

1120
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 2: too much like the psychoanalyzing people. But like fucking maybe.

1121
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 4: Right, Well, psychopaths are very good at the stuff you

1122
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 4: talked about winning people over in the room, you know, ladies, man,

1123
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 4: Like there is a they learn how to be a

1124
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 4: human and then they sort of and.

1125
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 3: A lot of you got syphlicid camp and a lot

1126
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 3: of them simplicit camp like Henry Kissingerry Well, Sophie.

1127
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 2: Can we let's green light some Henry kiss some t

1128
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 2: shirts that are just Henry Kissinger with his face riding

1129
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 2: off from syphilis. People are gonna want to wear them.

1130
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 3: He's making the kissy lips and his lips are falling

1131
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 3: off like a Kissinger. Let me French Kissinger you.

1132
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 2: So he meets his second mentor at Harvard. Henry Kissinger

1133
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 2: has a lot of mentors, and this is maybe a

1134
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 2: lesson to never mentor anybody. You never know they might

1135
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 2: become Henry Kissinger. Yeah, don't teach people things. Sabotage them

1136
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: at every step. Right next time you drive past a kindergarten,

1137
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 2: throw him a textbook that's all lies, you know, Just

1138
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 2: slow him down. So his second mentor is this guy,

1139
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 2: William yandell Elliott. And Elliott has is a professor at Harvard.

1140
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 2: He's also like very politically connected. He had advised several

1141
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 2: US presidents on international matters. And Kissinger was drawn to

1142
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 2: this guy because not only is he a respected educator,

1143
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 2: but he's really well connected to people with power. And

1144
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 2: Elliott one of the things that like, he is famous

1145
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 2: for being a big advocate of is is what's called

1146
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 2: real politique as embodied by you know, and particularly the

1147
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: guys that Kissinger grows up admiring, and that Elliott, you know,

1148
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 2: helps teach him to admire. I'm in like Klauswitz and Bismarck,

1149
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 2: these these these guys who are like Bismarck is the

1150
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 2: dude who makes Germany right, we have it, We get

1151
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 2: a Germany because Bismarck orchestrates, over a period of like

1152
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 2: I think it's decades, gradually he welds all these different

1153
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 2: German principalities and kingships together and then helps to orchestrate

1154
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 2: this war, which out of which emerges Germany. Like that's

1155
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 2: the kind of dude that Auto von Bismarck is, and

1156
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 2: he is kind of the master of the kind of

1157
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 2: politics that Kissinger comes to respect. And he Kissinger calls

1158
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 2: Klauswitz and Bismarck philosophers of history. That's how he sees

1159
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 2: this guy, these guys which is not really what I

1160
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 2: would call out of on Mark, Like he's very good

1161
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 2: at what he does, obviously, but not I wouldn't call

1162
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 2: him a philosopher. I want to quote now from the

1163
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 2: book Kissinger's Shadow by Greg Grandon. From these thinkers, Kissinger

1164
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 2: cobbled together his own view of how history operated. It

1165
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 2: was not a story of liberal progress or of class consciousness,

1166
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 2: or of cycles of history, or of cycles of birth, maturity,

1167
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 2: and decline. Rather, it was a series of meaningless incidents

1168
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 2: fleetingly given shape by the application of human will. As

1169
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 2: a young infantryman, Kissinger had learned that victors ransacked history

1170
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,439
Speaker 2: for analogies to gild their triumphs. Well the vanquished sought

1171
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 2: out historical causes of their misfortune. So, yeah, yeah, you

1172
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 2: know stuff, it's it's maybe not yeah, yeah, you can

1173
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 2: think about that however you want. So a lot of

1174
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 2: folks who analyze the the Kissinger in this period seize

1175
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 2: on one sentence in Kissinger's undergraduate thesis, and his thesis

1176
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 2: is titled The Meaning of History that they can kind

1177
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 2: of explains a lot of what comes to be going down.

1178
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 3: What an old paper it is, right, I mean, honestly,

1179
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 3: he's not a dude who makes like little leaps, right, Yeah,

1180
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 3: why do we love this is the line.

1181
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 2: The realm of freedom and necessity cannot be reconciled except

1182
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 2: by an inward experience, which is you know, read it again,

1183
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 2: the realm of freedom and necessity cannot be reconciled except

1184
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 2: by an inward experience.

1185
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 3: Wow, and this is this is a.

1186
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 2: Like a heavily influenced by French existentialism. His thesis cites

1187
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 2: Jean Paul Sart a lot, and both Start and Kissinger

1188
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 2: think that morality is not an inward thing. It's determined

1189
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 2: by actions, which is not an unreasonable thing to believe,

1190
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 2: right that, like what matters is what you do. You know,

1191
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 2: there's that line from the Bible. You're not damned by

1192
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 2: what goes into your head, but like what you know

1193
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 2: comes out right, Like, that's not an unreasonable thing to believe.

1194
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 2: Start he believes that like action creates the possibility of intellect,

1195
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 2: individual and collective responsibility. Right, that morality is determined by action,

1196
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 2: but that our actions create this possibility of like individual

1197
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 2: and collective moral responsibility for things. Kissinger does not come

1198
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 2: to that conclusion. Kissinger believes that morality is determined by action,

1199
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 2: but he also thinks that, like you, moral indeterminacy is

1200
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 2: a condition of human freedom.

1201
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 3: It's this idea that you.

1202
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 2: Can't be bound by morality and be free. If you

1203
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 2: want to freely act, you have to be able to

1204
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 2: act above morality, right, Look.

1205
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 4: That's yeah, so that's that's just giving yourself an excuse

1206
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 4: to do heinous acts.

1207
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 2: I mean, a lot of his intellectual development is him,

1208
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 2: and I'll you know, also a lot of this is

1209
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 2: obviously all of this. One of the things that you

1210
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 2: have to account for is all of this analysis of

1211
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 2: like his development intellectually comes after he does all the

1212
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 2: horrible things like so sure right from him and from

1213
01:01:57,720 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 2: like the people who are sources who are saying this

1214
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 2: is what he was, like is a kid. There is

1215
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 2: that degree of biasing, right, like that this is after

1216
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 2: he is the person that he is, Because if he

1217
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 2: had gone on to like just be a professor, nobody

1218
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 2: would have given a shit about what Henry.

1219
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 3: Kiss the accountant said that. I'd be like, yeah, look,

1220
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 3: just you what do I owe?

1221
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, tell me what the irs gets? Man, don't

1222
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 2: I don't need another lecture on this.

1223
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. And Kissinger's the fact that he becomes so kind of.

1224
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 2: Moral relativism is the word of use. I don't even

1225
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 2: know if that's right, but like this idea that like

1226
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 2: freedom and morality are kind of like inherently opposed. This

1227
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 2: upsets a lot of people around him, including people who

1228
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 2: are like his big supporters, including that professor Elliott guy

1229
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 2: at his retirement party, Henry Kissinger. Elliott's retirement party, Henry

1230
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 2: Kissinger and a number of students gather to like bid

1231
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 2: him farewell, and journalist David Helberstam wrote that Elliott had

1232
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 2: positive things to say about almost all of his students

1233
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,600
Speaker 2: who had gathered there, but when he reached Kissinger, he

1234
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 2: said this, Henry, He began, You're brilliant, but you're arrogant.

1235
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 2: In fact, you're the most arrogant man I've ever met.

1236
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 2: Kissinger became ashen faced. Mark my words. Elliott continued, your

1237
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 2: arrogance is going to get you in real trouble one day.

1238
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 3: Oh oh, that is amazing so many levels, like at

1239
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,439
Speaker 3: your retirement party to be like hey and you listen,

1240
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 3: ship bag, chill out, and then for that also to

1241
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 3: be totally incorrect, Like you know, I saw this like

1242
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 3: clip of some some guy in like Atlantic City talking

1243
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 3: to Trump when Trump is going like, well, what is

1244
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 3: what makes a native American? And the guy just goes, sir,

1245
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 3: I'm glad You're never gonna get into any real power.

1246
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 2: And you're like, oh, dude, oh dude, well, and one

1247
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 2: of the things like this, the Professor Elliott is like

1248
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 2: one of the guys who helps get him his first

1249
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 2: big gigs and shit, like he's a major bass and

1250
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 2: I think this is kind of him belatedly being.

1251
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 10: Like, well no ooops boosy, poopsy, poopsy, poopsie.

1252
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go patronize a Cambodian restaurant just to make

1253
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 3: myself feel of the more. Yeah right, real well, when

1254
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,439
Speaker 3: he went like, dude, just give me the tip slip.

1255
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:04,439
Speaker 3: Don't I know the food, Just give me a tip slip.

1256
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:06,360
Speaker 3: I owe you guys. I'm not going to tell you why.

1257
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 3: Here you go, don't worry about it. Take my take everything.

1258
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 3: Here's my pin hanged. I gotta go. Do you know

1259
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 3: if there's a Bangladeshi restaurant nearby? I'm actually heading a

1260
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 3: lot of spots tonight in not eating. I'll be honest.

1261
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 3: I'm going to a lot of places. No no, not German, No,

1262
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 3: not German, no, no, not German. You know what, They're

1263
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 3: actually fine? I don't think I Yeah.

1264
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 5: So his thesis him, well, that that thing that that

1265
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 5: he says to Kissinger, it it should be what happens.

1266
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 4: But our society rewards psychopaths above anybody else, and.

1267
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:43,919
Speaker 2: To be most societies.

1268
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, so what the things should be is the opposite.

1269
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 4: What he's talking about is a just world, which.

1270
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 3: Isn't what this is.

1271
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 2: And it's it's one of those things. This is something

1272
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 2: like that. Get kind of more into anthropological thinking. But like,

1273
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 2: one of the reasons people will say, like why we

1274
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 2: have psychopaths is that if you're in a band of

1275
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 2: seventy people who are like hunter gatherers, starving through the winter,

1276
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 2: it's helpful to have a guy like Henry Kissinger. You

1277
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 2: can say, like, well, these six people are too old

1278
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 2: and sick, and we have to let them die otherwise

1279
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 2: we'll all starve. Right, that's a situation which it's good

1280
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 2: to have a psychopath because you need someone who just

1281
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 2: doesn't give a shit about certain things. When you have

1282
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 2: a society of billions that's global, it becomes a problem

1283
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 2: because that kind of thinking is not so useful and

1284
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 2: tends to just get millions and millions of people killed.

1285
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 2: It's not great anyway. Henry's thesis is published in nineteen

1286
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 2: fifty at roughly the same time Harry Truman decides to

1287
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 2: send troops to Korea and to aid French forces in Vietnam.

1288
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 2: Professor Elliott told Kissinger that the Korean War was an

1289
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 2: example of the East quote testing the civilization of the West. Yeah,

1290
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 2: people doing their own thing in their own country is

1291
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 2: a test to us, like the Koreans in the Vietnamese

1292
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 2: having completely their own shit going on as a test

1293
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 2: of us in the United States.

1294
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 3: How dare you?

1295
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 2: You know, ho Chi men not wanting to be ruled

1296
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 2: over by the French is really a test of American power.

1297
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 2: It's very sting, I mean, and obviously they see that,

1298
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 2: like the Soviet Union's ormonstrating all this, and the Soviet

1299
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 2: Union is involved too.

1300
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 3: But like they're looking at us in the eyes. They've

1301
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 3: got their own shit going on. Dude, they are on

1302
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 3: the same level. How dare they do this?

1303
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,479
Speaker 2: So, as the US increased its commitments to a growing

1304
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 2: series of wars in Southeast Asia, Kissingery got more dedicated

1305
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 2: to the work of a guy named Oswald Spangler. Spangler's

1306
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 2: book The Declient of the West is not something I

1307
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 2: am well equipped to describe or explain in detail, but

1308
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:47,919
Speaker 2: Greg Grandon is, so I'm going to quote from him again.

1309
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 2: Spangler waged a relentless assault on the very idea of reality.

1310
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 2: He insisted that there existed a higher plane of experience

1311
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 2: that was inaccessible to rational thought, a plane where instinct,

1312
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 2: in creativity rain we have, Spengler thought, hardly, yet an

1313
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:05,200
Speaker 2: inkling of how much in our reputedly objective values and

1314
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 2: experiences is only disguise, only image and expression. To get

1315
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 2: behind image and expression, to penetrate perceived material power and interests,

1316
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:17,520
Speaker 2: and grasp what Spinler called destiny, one needed not information

1317
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 2: but intuition, not facts but hunches, not reason but a

1318
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 2: soul sense, a world feeling. Often enough, a statesman does

1319
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 2: not follow, does not know what he is doing, Spengler wrote,

1320
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:31,360
Speaker 2: But that does not prevent him from following with confidence.

1321
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:33,440
Speaker 2: Just the one path that leads to success.

1322
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:36,000
Speaker 3: Oh my god, and that is George W. Bush crawl

1323
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 3: out of a pile of goon now I means for

1324
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 3: our freedom.

1325
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 2: George Bush like pops out of Henry's Kissinger's back, is Apollo's.

1326
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 3: Rumsfeld bush like thing like way now where they are

1327
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 3: there in the east west north and.

1328
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 2: Kissinger finds this logic intoxicating, But he did disagree with

1329
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 2: Spingler about Spengler's primary contention, which is that civilizational decay

1330
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 2: was inevitable. Spengler argued that civilizations had spring, summers, autumns,

1331
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 2: and winters, right, that they proceed through kind of like

1332
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:16,920
Speaker 2: inevitable stages, and there's not really any way to stop

1333
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 2: this procession, right, which is I think a pretty reasonable

1334
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:21,600
Speaker 2: like yeah, and civilization is going to have like a

1335
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:23,920
Speaker 2: life cycle, right, that's a thing like historically you can

1336
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:27,160
Speaker 2: argue pretty well, Kissinger doesn't believe.

1337
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:31,520
Speaker 3: This everything dies. Yeah, well that's actually.

1338
01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:31,600
Speaker 2: Not with.

1339
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:36,679
Speaker 3: Of course, the man who is like living way beyond

1340
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 3: his shelf life is like told you so, doesn't die.

1341
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:45,080
Speaker 2: So here's grand and again talking about Kissinger. How Kissinger

1342
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:48,240
Speaker 2: grapples with this aspect of Spangler having lost a sense

1343
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 2: of purpose. Civilizations lurch outward defined, meaning they get caught

1344
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 2: up in a series of disastrous wars, propelled forward to

1345
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:57,679
Speaker 2: doom by history's cosmic beat, power for power's sake, blood

1346
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:01,599
Speaker 2: for blood. Imperialism is the inevitable product of this final stage,

1347
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 2: Kissinger wrote, summing up the decline of the West's argument

1348
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 2: an outward thrust to hide the inner void. Kissinger accepted

1349
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:13,160
Speaker 2: Spengler's critique of past civilizations, but rejected his determinism. Decay

1350
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 2: was not inevitable, Spengler, Kissinger said, merely described a fact

1351
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 2: of decline, and not its necessity. There is a margin,

1352
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 2: he would write in his memoirs, between necessity and accident,

1353
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 2: in which the statesman, by perseverance and intuition, must choose

1354
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:30,920
Speaker 2: and thereby shape the destiny of his people. So Spingler's like, yeah,

1355
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:33,280
Speaker 2: it seems like when civilizations lose their purpose and start

1356
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 2: to age, they lurch out what engage in wars of

1357
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 2: imperial conquest and a search for meaning, and that leads

1358
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 2: to disaster, which destroys them. And Kissinger's like, but what

1359
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 2: if you did the War's right?

1360
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:46,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you were well what if I was involved

1361
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:50,680
Speaker 3: in everyone? What if I was like Mickey in the

1362
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:51,639
Speaker 3: corner of Rockie.

1363
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:54,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it isn't amazing, like this guy being like,

1364
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 2: here is what happens to empires every single time there's

1365
01:09:57,560 --> 01:09:59,599
Speaker 2: an empire. This is a thing you can go through

1366
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 2: history and see constantly occurs through thousands of years.

1367
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:04,720
Speaker 3: And Kisser's just like, no, I can do it, right,

1368
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 3: But to be like, no, you're pretty you're pretty close.

1369
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:11,559
Speaker 3: You're pretty close. Bah I saw.

1370
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 4: I'm just thinking kill more like I heard what you

1371
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:17,600
Speaker 4: said ups and downs, but I think you wipe everybody.

1372
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 3: Out, you know, if you try to get blood.

1373
01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:21,720
Speaker 2: It is the same logic I have seen. Every time

1374
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 2: I've seen more than one person get stuck in the mud,

1375
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 2: it's always either one person gets stuck in the mud

1376
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 2: or fifty two. Because one person gets stuck in the

1377
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 2: mud and the other forty nine go well, I saw

1378
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 2: it happened to that guy. But I think I can

1379
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 2: figure it out. I can get around.

1380
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1381
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:39,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. It's almost like when you enter Congress. I've

1382
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:42,720
Speaker 3: got a plan. I've got a plan. Oh I get money. Oh,

1383
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 3: never mind, I don't have a plan.

1384
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 4: Plan.

1385
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I have a plan, but it's a different one,

1386
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 2: and you are not going to like it a lot.

1387
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:50,880
Speaker 3: More about a pool. Yeah.

1388
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:57,640
Speaker 2: In nineteen fifty one, Henry got a gig working as

1389
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 2: a consultant with the Army on psychological war fair while

1390
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 2: he finished his graduate studies. Kissinger's doctoral thesis on the

1391
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:07,120
Speaker 2: Congress of Vienna did not seem overly relevant to politics,

1392
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:10,679
Speaker 2: but its first sentence had discussed nuclear weapons and proposed

1393
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:12,960
Speaker 2: to readers that the efforts of British and Australia, and

1394
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:15,960
Speaker 2: that the efforts the British and Austrians made to contain

1395
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:19,439
Speaker 2: Napoleon might be useful in handling the Soviet Union. I

1396
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:22,439
Speaker 2: might argue, did Napoleon have a way to end all

1397
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:26,120
Speaker 2: life on Earth if things went badly with Containa? Was

1398
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:27,760
Speaker 2: that a factor in Napoleon.

1399
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:31,360
Speaker 3: A sword?

1400
01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:35,679
Speaker 2: Kissinger believes he sees that containment is a failure, which

1401
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 2: it is because people do not like being colonies, and

1402
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:42,639
Speaker 2: if the opposition to being a colony is communism, they'll

1403
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 2: be like, well, let's try communism. Being a colony seems

1404
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 2: to suck. So Kissinger sees that containment is a failure.

1405
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:52,920
Speaker 2: But he also believes believes not that like, well, why

1406
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 2: don't we just like let people do things and like

1407
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:57,040
Speaker 2: just take care of our own shit. He's like, no,

1408
01:11:57,280 --> 01:11:58,960
Speaker 2: because containment's a failure, war with.

1409
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:00,720
Speaker 3: The Soviet Union is inevitable.

1410
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:03,600
Speaker 2: Now, in Kissinger's view, this has nothing to do with

1411
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 2: the actions of the United States, but as instead quote,

1412
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 2: because of the existence of the United States as a

1413
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 2: symbol of capitalist democracy. It is literally the early extent

1414
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:16,920
Speaker 2: of like, well, they hate us for our freedom, right right, yeah, right, yeah,

1415
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 2: Like that's that's that's where he's starting down. Obviously a

1416
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:22,080
Speaker 2: lot of people are saying shit like this, right, this

1417
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:23,960
Speaker 2: is not a Kissinger invention. You know, you've got the

1418
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:26,120
Speaker 2: John Birch Society all sorts of shits. Yeah, on this period,

1419
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:27,439
Speaker 2: I don't want to give him too much credit there.

1420
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 2: It's clear by this point that Henry was going to

1421
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 2: get into politics, although law enforcement was a possibility too,

1422
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:36,720
Speaker 2: because when heked on, he gets he starts being a

1423
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 2: professor at Harvard right like after he graduates and stuff.

1424
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:41,919
Speaker 2: He starts like helping out his stuff and teaching some classes.

1425
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:45,280
Speaker 2: And at one point the school hosts an international seminar,

1426
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:47,960
Speaker 2: and when he hears that like a bunch of foreign

1427
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:51,600
Speaker 2: academics are coming to Harvard, he calls the FBI and

1428
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 2: volunteers to spy on people for as.

1429
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, it is so amazing with his background

1430
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:03,280
Speaker 3: to be like to have that attitude. It just is,

1431
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:06,479
Speaker 3: it really is. It's hard. It's hard to get there.

1432
01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:10,639
Speaker 3: You got to give him credit. The man covers some ground.

1433
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 3: The man is a Batman villain, Yeah, he really is.

1434
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:18,120
Speaker 2: So Yeah, his love of politics and his first attempt

1435
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:20,719
Speaker 2: to build influence at Harvard Is by starting a journal

1436
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 2: named Confluence. Now, this is ostensibly a journal that exists

1437
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 2: to create what he calls an international forum for discussion. Right,

1438
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 2: I just want to get good people talking from all

1439
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:30,800
Speaker 2: around the world, you know, let the ideas fly. It's

1440
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:33,559
Speaker 2: like got Ted talk kind of pitch. Sure, but he's

1441
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 2: really vague about He doesn't really seem to care about

1442
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:39,519
Speaker 2: what particular discussions he encourages, and his critics would later

1443
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 2: claim that this journal was quote a fake, primarily an

1444
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:46,080
Speaker 2: enterprise designed to make Kissinger known to powerful people. Right, Yeah,

1445
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 2: like he's just giving letting powerful people write articles because

1446
01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 2: then he gets them in and he gets their their

1447
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 2: phone number. Right, it's they're mainly working. Yeah, he's not working.

1448
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:59,400
Speaker 2: Confluence leads to Henry's first mention in the pages of

1449
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:02,320
Speaker 2: the New York Time Times, and despite what his critics claim,

1450
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 2: which is probably broadly accurate, the journal did also publish

1451
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 2: some really significant figures, including Reinhold Neighbor and Hannah Rint.

1452
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 2: But while he claimed commitment to free discourse, Kissinger had

1453
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:16,639
Speaker 2: a real tendency to publish right wing shitheads, including Enoch Powell,

1454
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:20,479
Speaker 2: a conservative British politician famous for comparing immigration to quote

1455
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 2: rivers of blood.

1456
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:24,400
Speaker 3: Well, that's fair. I mean I've always agreed with that.

1457
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 3: I mean, that is just sovers. I love a blood river. Oh,

1458
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 3: the laziest of rivers. Mm yeah, because you float real good.

1459
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:36,520
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, it's molasses.

1460
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 4: That's freedom you can if you can say immigrants are

1461
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:44,679
Speaker 4: like a river of blood, that's the freedom he's talking about.

1462
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 3: That's the freedom.

1463
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:48,040
Speaker 2: You want to know what other kind of freedoms he's interested.

1464
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote from Nil Ferguson from the book

1465
01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:57,439
Speaker 2: Kissinger here an article by Ernst von Sullomon, a right

1466
01:14:57,520 --> 01:14:59,880
Speaker 2: wing German writer who had been convicted for his role

1467
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:03,720
Speaker 2: the assassination of Walter Rathanow, a German foreign minister in

1468
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:06,960
Speaker 2: the Weimar Republic. The article provoked an angry letter from

1469
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:09,519
Speaker 2: Shepherd Stone of the Ford Foundation, who had provided money

1470
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:12,320
Speaker 2: for both the International Seminar and the journal. So, first note,

1471
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 2: he publishes a guy who's basically pretty close to a Nazi,

1472
01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:20,840
Speaker 2: a far right German terrorist in the in the Weimar years,

1473
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:24,639
Speaker 2: and it's so upsetting that a representative of the Ford

1474
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:25,960
Speaker 2: Foundation complaints.

1475
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:30,759
Speaker 3: I mean, if you can upset the you're crossing that line.

1476
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:33,600
Speaker 2: If the Ford Foundation is like your connection to a

1477
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 2: Nazi worries met.

1478
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:37,680
Speaker 3: Hey you have, and that's coming from us who I'm

1479
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:41,679
Speaker 3: really who we are, like tuper find of that look.

1480
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:44,559
Speaker 2: I have the protocols of the Elders of Zion tattooed

1481
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:48,679
Speaker 2: on my chest. But Ford Foundation employees, I'm gonna.

1482
01:15:48,439 --> 01:15:50,160
Speaker 3: Throw a flag on the play. I'm still a flag

1483
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 3: in the play. And are Carr's coming out the Ford

1484
01:15:53,000 --> 01:16:02,639
Speaker 3: Ta yeah, oh man so quote.

1485
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:05,160
Speaker 2: Stone was appalled that Kissinger would publish an article by

1486
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 2: a criminal and a Nazi sympathizer like Solomon. Kissinger told

1487
01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 2: Stone he disliked Solomon and opposed what he stood for,

1488
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:15,000
Speaker 2: considering him a damned soul driven by the furies. Demonstrating

1489
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:18,120
Speaker 2: a remarkable self confidence for a graduate student, Kissinger defended

1490
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 2: himself for publishing the article. I may air occasionally on

1491
01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:23,559
Speaker 2: the side of two great tolerance, partly because I believe

1492
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:26,799
Speaker 2: our readers sufficiently mature to make their own judgments. Kissinger

1493
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:30,000
Speaker 2: argued that what Solomon represented was a symptom of certain

1494
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:32,600
Speaker 2: tendencies of our age, but that by appearing in a

1495
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:36,280
Speaker 2: liberal journal like Confluence, Solomon was the one who was compromised.

1496
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:39,960
Speaker 2: Kissinger was not simply defending free speech. He had solicited

1497
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:43,200
Speaker 2: the article from Solomon, telling the German about quote, having

1498
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 2: long admired your writing. See, hom I could not share

1499
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:50,560
Speaker 2: your point of view. What so it gets better and

1500
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:53,560
Speaker 2: more relevant to today because when there's an outcry against this,

1501
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:56,800
Speaker 2: Kissinger writes a letter to his friend Kramer and says,

1502
01:16:56,880 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 2: I have now joined you as the cardinal villain in

1503
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:00,520
Speaker 2: liberal demail analogy.

1504
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:04,760
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is he's just doing it. Now,

1505
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:07,680
Speaker 3: he's just doing it. Now, he's got the monicle that too.

1506
01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:10,759
Speaker 5: It's like you're Glenn Greenwald talked to Joe Rogan.

1507
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 3: Yes, It's like, what the how?

1508
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 2: How is this still happening? How are you the pioneer

1509
01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:20,560
Speaker 2: of this? Henry Kissinger? How are you the pioneer of this?

1510
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 3: Oh? That's his explanation if you're if you're me just

1511
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:29,840
Speaker 3: listening to like, uh okay, okay, I'm not sure what

1512
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:33,439
Speaker 3: he's saying, but all right, okay, So we got to

1513
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:37,160
Speaker 3: hear from this nazi who shot a dude? You okay

1514
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 3: because you all right? Well, is it'll anger the lips

1515
01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:41,759
Speaker 3: as light as you said. It's cool.

1516
01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 5: And next next month we have ed Gean is doing

1517
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:45,799
Speaker 5: a little.

1518
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:49,120
Speaker 3: Number, and Deane's gonna walk us through lamp workings.

1519
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 2: So and then we're having the Zodiac Killer on to

1520
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:58,320
Speaker 2: teach us about proper parking technique.

1521
01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:05,040
Speaker 3: Uh huh pentagram. He'd actually be pretty good at that. Yeah.

1522
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:10,040
Speaker 2: So, once he had finished his dissertation and graduated, Henry

1523
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 2: found himself in need of like a steady He's doing

1524
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:13,800
Speaker 2: like it wasn't a professor at that point, but he

1525
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:15,840
Speaker 2: was like doing like graduate students, you know, helping to

1526
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:19,200
Speaker 2: teach whatever. I didn't do a college so, but you

1527
01:18:19,280 --> 01:18:21,560
Speaker 2: know how grad students teach shit and stuff. But he

1528
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 2: wants like a full on gig. He's trying to get

1529
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:27,160
Speaker 2: an actual full time job as an assistant professor, but

1530
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:30,519
Speaker 2: he's not able to because most people don't like Henry Kissinger.

1531
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:34,559
Speaker 3: I wonder any reason why a lot of people at

1532
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:42,599
Speaker 3: Harvard not a huge fan loving the Nazi publishing June. Yeah,

1533
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:46,000
Speaker 3: they are. They consider him slightly problematic.

1534
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 2: Drifts for a bit, he's unable to find work, you know,

1535
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:51,080
Speaker 2: and he's still he's still doing some stuff at Harvard,

1536
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:53,800
Speaker 2: but he's like not He's kind of a drift in

1537
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:56,599
Speaker 2: his career until in nineteen fifty four he runs into

1538
01:18:56,680 --> 01:19:00,800
Speaker 2: a friend Arthur Slushinger, Junior at Harvard slashing our head

1539
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:03,240
Speaker 2: a letter in his possession from a former Secretary of

1540
01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:06,960
Speaker 2: the Air Force defending Eisenhower. The Eisenhower administration standard of

1541
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:10,880
Speaker 2: threatening massive retaliation for the to the Soviets. Now, the

1542
01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:13,760
Speaker 2: gist of this idea that the Eisenhower administration really kicked

1543
01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:16,040
Speaker 2: off was that if we promise the Soviets that if

1544
01:19:16,040 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 2: there's ever a confrontation, we will immediately like send out

1545
01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:21,920
Speaker 2: a world in inhale of nukes, right, then those lines

1546
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:23,600
Speaker 2: won't get crossed, Right, we won't have any kind of

1547
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 2: fight at all. If like that, if everyone knows those

1548
01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:28,519
Speaker 2: are the stakes, then nothing will happen. Right, That's the idea.

1549
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:33,160
Speaker 2: Kissinger disagrees with this take, right, which is reasonable to

1550
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:35,160
Speaker 2: disagree with. Right, there's a lot of problems with the

1551
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:37,560
Speaker 2: we will in the world if there's any kind of issue.

1552
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:40,640
Speaker 3: To take, he's gonna make it worse. He's gonna make

1553
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:41,160
Speaker 3: it worse.

1554
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 2: He shared us that that's exactly what he does, Gareth,

1555
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:52,120
Speaker 2: because because Kissingers, we'll talk about what he does in

1556
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 2: a bit. But he writes a letter kind of writing

1557
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:55,880
Speaker 2: out some critiques to this, and he has his friend

1558
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:59,479
Speaker 2: Nelson Rockefeller send it to Eisenhower. He's friends with Nelson Rockefeller,

1559
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:05,719
Speaker 2: but su everyone is in this period. When the President

1560
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:09,160
Speaker 2: rejects Kissinger's analysis, at the advice of John Foster Dullis,

1561
01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:12,680
Speaker 2: Rockefeller resigns and he resigns from his job with the administration,

1562
01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:16,920
Speaker 2: which like temporarily closes a door to Henry. But the

1563
01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:20,360
Speaker 2: letter that Kissinger had received was well enough, like popular

1564
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 2: enough among other thinkers in Washington that it earns him

1565
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:25,639
Speaker 2: a job offer heading a study group at the Council

1566
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:29,800
Speaker 2: on Foreign Relations studying nuclear weapons and foreign policy. But

1567
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:32,920
Speaker 2: of course, Henry's problem with massive retaliation wasn't that using

1568
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:36,160
Speaker 2: nuclear weapons was unconscionable. It was that the world ending

1569
01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:39,320
Speaker 2: nature of the threats the Eisenhower administration was making meant

1570
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 2: they would never knew anybody. And Kissinger thought this was

1571
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:45,360
Speaker 2: a terrible idea. So he thought that nuclear weapons should

1572
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:49,440
Speaker 2: be used tactically to secure battlefield victories against the communists.

1573
01:20:49,640 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 3: What's happening? He thinks?

1574
01:20:53,080 --> 01:20:55,519
Speaker 5: He thinks it's bad to have nukes and not use them.

1575
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:58,840
Speaker 3: He's yeah, that's his answer, that's his angle. What in

1576
01:20:59,040 --> 01:20:59,719
Speaker 3: the fuck?

1577
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's wild that in this argument between if there's

1578
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 2: a fight, will kill everybody? Or what if we just

1579
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:09,280
Speaker 2: try using nukes a little bit the kill everybody. Guys

1580
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:10,680
Speaker 2: have the more reasonable take.

1581
01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:16,679
Speaker 3: I mean, really, you're close, you're close together.

1582
01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:19,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, we can get off a couple of much faster.

1583
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:23,320
Speaker 2: It's it's incredible. And also but like again, this is

1584
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:26,920
Speaker 2: this he's the people he's arguing with is the Eisenhower administration.

1585
01:21:27,280 --> 01:21:30,479
Speaker 2: Nelson Rockefeller is not a right winger who's like, this

1586
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:33,200
Speaker 2: guy's got some shit going on. You know, we should

1587
01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:36,439
Speaker 2: listen to him, and like, he's a lot of people

1588
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:40,760
Speaker 2: who are not like, you know, hard right dudes are like, yeah,

1589
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:42,280
Speaker 2: maybe it makes sense we got to be using these

1590
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:45,320
Speaker 2: like tactical nuclear we consider the possibility. You know, he

1591
01:21:45,439 --> 01:21:49,080
Speaker 2: makes a good point. He uses smart words and about

1592
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:54,280
Speaker 2: nuking folks words. So that is part one of our

1593
01:21:54,320 --> 01:21:58,839
Speaker 2: epic series Henry Kissinger Jesus Christ, dude, maybe become an accountant?

1594
01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:00,840
Speaker 6: What a guy.

1595
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:04,080
Speaker 2: In part two we'll talk about how he gets into power.

1596
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:04,840
Speaker 2: So that's going to be a.

1597
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:05,639
Speaker 3: Hoot for everybody.

1598
01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:08,719
Speaker 2: But I feel like before we do that, you guys,

1599
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:10,960
Speaker 2: do you guys like do you like them, like like

1600
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:15,880
Speaker 2: like a giant influential popular podcast that maybe this, this

1601
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:18,120
Speaker 2: podcast is heavily influenced by.

1602
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 3: Is that something you guys do are you talking about Rogan?

1603
01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:26,760
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, you are both Joe Rogan, right, yeah, the

1604
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:30,240
Speaker 2: doll Yes, the dollar it is your podcast, we believe,

1605
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:35,320
Speaker 2: yes that that was your six part series, The Dollups.

1606
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:37,960
Speaker 3: Why we need the nuke PI Go for it.

1607
01:22:40,040 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 2: Check out The doll Up.

1608
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:45,040
Speaker 3: If you have not already. Just a fucking, very very

1609
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:45,919
Speaker 3: funny podcast.

1610
01:22:46,320 --> 01:22:48,559
Speaker 2: You guys want to plug anything else before we roll

1611
01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:49,360
Speaker 2: out into part two?

1612
01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:51,400
Speaker 3: I mean my ears a couple of times during this,

1613
01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:58,080
Speaker 3: but yeah, well you can dot com. We're on tour

1614
01:22:58,160 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 3: all over the place and domestically soon. That will be

1615
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:06,519
Speaker 3: very exciting. I am excited for tour touring to exist

1616
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:12,240
Speaker 3: again in our lives. Yeah, fingers crossed until part two.

1617
01:23:12,439 --> 01:23:16,719
Speaker 2: Go home and read some Oswald Spangler and then disagree

1618
01:23:16,760 --> 01:23:18,840
Speaker 2: with it in a way that makes you much much worse.

1619
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:21,679
Speaker 3: Yep, yes, put the monica on the bad eye.

1620
01:23:22,120 --> 01:23:33,760
Speaker 2: Yeah all right, Oh, welcome back to what is either

1621
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 2: Behind the doll Up or Dollup the Bastards, a podcast that,

1622
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:40,200
Speaker 2: no matter what name we choose for it is about

1623
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:42,759
Speaker 2: tickling absolutely.

1624
01:23:42,320 --> 01:23:45,200
Speaker 3: This finally, is that's how you make us feel at home?

1625
01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:45,640
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1626
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:48,599
Speaker 5: Do you think anyone has ever tickled Kissinger?

1627
01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:51,880
Speaker 2: I can't imagine. I cannot picture it in my head.

1628
01:23:52,240 --> 01:23:57,960
Speaker 3: This is the way he would laugh. Stop it, I'm

1629
01:23:58,040 --> 01:23:59,599
Speaker 3: going to work with my pants.

1630
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:10,920
Speaker 2: I just try to imagine him whispering into the ears

1631
01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:12,559
Speaker 2: of a sexual partner something.

1632
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 3: I'm about I'm going to know. It'd be more like

1633
01:24:19,080 --> 01:24:29,360
Speaker 3: I'm going to end this corpse. Only one of us

1634
01:24:29,479 --> 01:24:33,880
Speaker 3: makes it out a lie. I actually did.

1635
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:36,479
Speaker 2: While we were taking a break in between episodes, I

1636
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:38,599
Speaker 2: had a moment where I actually did for the first

1637
01:24:38,640 --> 01:24:40,680
Speaker 2: time in my life, I felt a profound sense of

1638
01:24:40,760 --> 01:24:44,799
Speaker 2: solidarity with Henry Kissinger. My cat is named Saddam Hussein,

1639
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 2: and as I was feeding him during the break, I realized,

1640
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:51,040
Speaker 2: like Kissinger did at one point, he's gotten much bigger.

1641
01:24:51,080 --> 01:24:53,760
Speaker 2: Saddam has gotten much larger than I ever thought he would.

1642
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:58,040
Speaker 2: You know this is I did not anticipate this. Yeah,

1643
01:24:59,360 --> 01:25:02,120
Speaker 2: well that's because you there's a lot to love what

1644
01:25:02,240 --> 01:25:08,240
Speaker 2: you just said. Kissinger wouldn't make the same mistake. Oh

1645
01:25:10,200 --> 01:25:14,280
Speaker 2: so yes, let's uh, let's uh, let's get get right

1646
01:25:14,360 --> 01:25:18,320
Speaker 2: back down. What is for Kissinger memory Lane and is

1647
01:25:18,479 --> 01:25:22,680
Speaker 2: what for everyone else is Nightmare Avenue, because this is

1648
01:25:22,760 --> 01:25:26,280
Speaker 2: the story about why Vietnam lasted an extra half decade.

1649
01:25:27,280 --> 01:25:30,040
Speaker 2: Good time, We're gonna have a fun one here. So

1650
01:25:30,640 --> 01:25:33,320
Speaker 2: one of the mini downsides of an intellectual upbringing like

1651
01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:36,000
Speaker 2: the one Henry Kissinger experienced is that he spent a

1652
01:25:36,080 --> 01:25:41,360
Speaker 2: lot of time surrounded by people you might call political technologists. Now,

1653
01:25:41,400 --> 01:25:43,640
Speaker 2: this is a term I first heard in Ukraine from

1654
01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:48,679
Speaker 2: civilians describing Paul Manifort. That's what they called them. Political Yeah, yeah,

1655
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 2: these like hired guns who come in and help anybody

1656
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:55,880
Speaker 2: who just happens to like have government money, like do

1657
01:25:56,160 --> 01:26:00,439
Speaker 2: literally anything. Right. There're guys like his mentor, professor Elliott

1658
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:05,160
Speaker 2: and like Harvard economists Thomas Schnelling, who advised powerful elected leaders,

1659
01:26:05,200 --> 01:26:07,640
Speaker 2: and like they all of the way in which they

1660
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 2: think about the mechanisms of government are very mathematic and inhuman.

1661
01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:14,040
Speaker 3: Right, those are the.

1662
01:26:14,120 --> 01:26:18,280
Speaker 2: People that Kissinger patterns him self off of. Now, Schnelling,

1663
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:20,439
Speaker 2: who are Shelling? Who is just Thomas Shelling, who's a

1664
01:26:20,439 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 2: Harvard economists we just introduced was one of Kissinger's other mentors,

1665
01:26:24,160 --> 01:26:26,759
Speaker 2: and Shelling at the same time as he's he's working

1666
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 2: at Harvard and mentoring Kissinger is advising the Eisenhower administration

1667
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:33,360
Speaker 2: on moral calculus in the early stages of the Cold War.

1668
01:26:34,080 --> 01:26:38,840
Speaker 3: Shelling argues, calculus, moral calculus? Have you never have you

1669
01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:41,439
Speaker 3: never talked about that with anybody? Is he not a

1670
01:26:41,520 --> 01:26:44,360
Speaker 3: common condres now? No? Sorry? No, I mean I was

1671
01:26:44,479 --> 01:26:47,960
Speaker 3: terrible at calculus. Yeah.

1672
01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:52,360
Speaker 2: Well you can't be moral and no calculus, which is

1673
01:26:52,479 --> 01:26:55,920
Speaker 2: why you know, like polepot, I'm going to eventually set

1674
01:26:55,960 --> 01:26:58,200
Speaker 2: all of my listeners after people who know math.

1675
01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:03,200
Speaker 3: That's that's the gold Bobby right there. How did we

1676
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:07,840
Speaker 3: get We're not sure, sir, No idea, No possible to say,

1677
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:11,439
Speaker 3: no way, incalculable. People keep trying to tell us, and

1678
01:27:11,520 --> 01:27:13,519
Speaker 3: we just kill them. Adam to the pile. Someone had

1679
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:16,840
Speaker 3: two numbers, but we were unable to We can't negotiate it. Yeah,

1680
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:18,800
Speaker 3: so uh.

1681
01:27:19,360 --> 01:27:22,720
Speaker 2: Shelling is advising the Eisenhewer administration on moral calculus in

1682
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:25,479
Speaker 2: the Cold War, and Shelling's argument is that whether you

1683
01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:28,920
Speaker 2: were quote deterring the Russians or your own children, the

1684
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:32,000
Speaker 2: proper tactic was to figure out the right ratio of

1685
01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:38,439
Speaker 2: threat to incentive. So already Shelling might be the quickest

1686
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:40,960
Speaker 2: I've ever described a person and had it be clear like, well,

1687
01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:41,599
Speaker 2: that's a bastard.

1688
01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:44,719
Speaker 3: That's not okay obviously.

1689
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:48,560
Speaker 5: So since I have no human feelings, I have to

1690
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:52,320
Speaker 5: figure out this. And children and murderers are the same.

1691
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:56,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, children in the Soviet government only understand one thing, threats.

1692
01:27:57,520 --> 01:27:58,679
Speaker 3: Can I have more ice cream?

1693
01:27:58,760 --> 01:27:58,960
Speaker 9: Dad?

1694
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:03,000
Speaker 3: Put your hand in the drawer and find out. Now,

1695
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:04,240
Speaker 3: there you go.

1696
01:28:04,360 --> 01:28:06,519
Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell you something, Jimmy. You go for that

1697
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:09,559
Speaker 2: ice cream. I have a loaded thirty eight on the table.

1698
01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:11,760
Speaker 2: Now one of the chambers is empty, Jimmy, So if

1699
01:28:11,800 --> 01:28:14,720
Speaker 2: you give that ice cream, maybe the hammer goes Stepp.

1700
01:28:15,479 --> 01:28:17,160
Speaker 3: I just want to go to bed. I don't like dessert.

1701
01:28:18,160 --> 01:28:20,840
Speaker 3: There you go, money, Honey. You just feel like moral

1702
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:23,200
Speaker 3: calculus is not the way to go with the ice cream.

1703
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:26,599
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe you could just say no if you don't

1704
01:28:26,640 --> 01:28:28,960
Speaker 3: want him to have dessert. Any dad could say no,

1705
01:28:29,960 --> 01:28:30,599
Speaker 3: I'm learning.

1706
01:28:31,240 --> 01:28:31,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1707
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:35,519
Speaker 2: So, while Henry was teaching at Harvard, and this is

1708
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:37,599
Speaker 2: before he gets we ended the last episode him getting

1709
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:39,720
Speaker 2: that gig with the Council on Foreign Relations learning about

1710
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:42,799
Speaker 2: nuclear policy. In the period before that, when like Shelling

1711
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:45,280
Speaker 2: is his mentor, Henry learns a lot from him and

1712
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:47,920
Speaker 2: he walks away from their relationship with the belief that

1713
01:28:48,040 --> 01:28:51,519
Speaker 2: quote bargaining power comes from the capacity to hurt, to

1714
01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:53,759
Speaker 2: cause quote sheer pain and damage.

1715
01:28:54,600 --> 01:28:58,000
Speaker 3: She means, fucking Christ, you're just kind of waiting for

1716
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:00,920
Speaker 3: this person to step into the vacuum essentially, right, like

1717
01:29:01,040 --> 01:29:02,840
Speaker 3: you're waiting for someone to be like, you know, there's

1718
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:04,960
Speaker 3: actually a bottom that's under the bottom.

1719
01:29:05,360 --> 01:29:07,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh oh my lord, it's like this shit, like

1720
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:10,719
Speaker 2: if that were true. We're all watching this situation unfold

1721
01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:13,680
Speaker 2: between Russia and Ukraine where you've got like a lot

1722
01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:15,640
Speaker 2: of people with the ability to hurt, a lot of

1723
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:16,840
Speaker 2: people on both sides.

1724
01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:19,599
Speaker 3: And you know what, it doesn't seem like negotiations are

1725
01:29:19,640 --> 01:29:24,240
Speaker 3: going great. Yeah, not really. Maybe that's not a good

1726
01:29:24,360 --> 01:29:28,840
Speaker 3: basis to proceed from anything with. Yeah, I mean, I

1727
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:30,000
Speaker 3: just I can't believe that.

1728
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:32,920
Speaker 5: It's it's the craziest fucking idea.

1729
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:33,760
Speaker 11: It's not.

1730
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:34,439
Speaker 3: It's not.

1731
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:36,040
Speaker 5: It's not negotiating.

1732
01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:39,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, you go into negotiations, you're like, I'm probably not

1733
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:40,080
Speaker 4: gonna get what I want.

1734
01:29:40,160 --> 01:29:41,599
Speaker 3: We're gonna try and get the best we can.

1735
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:44,720
Speaker 5: And he's just like, how much can I fucking hurt you?

1736
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:47,240
Speaker 2: And usually you give me if you spend enough time

1737
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:50,479
Speaker 2: like I do around like gun culture. People on the

1738
01:29:50,560 --> 01:29:53,320
Speaker 2: right in particular, there's these folks who like usually have

1739
01:29:53,400 --> 01:29:55,519
Speaker 2: never done anything like in the military themselves, but they

1740
01:29:55,560 --> 01:29:57,920
Speaker 2: read a bunch of like books by Navy seals and shit,

1741
01:29:57,960 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 2: and they'll say shit like you should have a plan

1742
01:29:59,840 --> 01:30:02,400
Speaker 2: to kill everyone in every room you walk into, and

1743
01:30:02,560 --> 01:30:04,519
Speaker 2: like their frame is that, like the world's dangerous, you

1744
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:06,960
Speaker 2: gotta be ready. And I think any reasonable person is like, well,

1745
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:08,599
Speaker 2: you are someone who should not have a gun.

1746
01:30:08,840 --> 01:30:12,120
Speaker 3: Yes, you should not have a gun. You are out

1747
01:30:12,160 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 3: of your entire damn mind.

1748
01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:17,400
Speaker 5: Like this is a guy who should never be negotiating.

1749
01:30:17,520 --> 01:30:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely not ready to kill someone. Is like, you

1750
01:30:21,479 --> 01:30:23,280
Speaker 2: know what, don't go into rooms. That's just going to

1751
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:26,200
Speaker 2: be your thing. You don't stay anywhere, stay in your house.

1752
01:30:26,280 --> 01:30:28,639
Speaker 3: You go to one room. Yeah no, I could.

1753
01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:30,599
Speaker 5: I could tell your throat.

1754
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:33,519
Speaker 4: I could come reach across the table, tell your throat

1755
01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:35,559
Speaker 4: out and stab you in the eyes with ice picks.

1756
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:37,880
Speaker 5: So I'm just we're just talking about what.

1757
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:40,400
Speaker 3: He just wants ice cream, Dan, He just asked you

1758
01:30:40,479 --> 01:30:41,559
Speaker 3: for an ice cream, Dan.

1759
01:30:44,320 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 2: So Henry gets his gig at the at the CFR,

1760
01:30:47,320 --> 01:30:50,360
Speaker 2: and so he's the thing he's producing for the Council

1761
01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:54,040
Speaker 2: on Foreign Relations for his buddy the Rockefeller It's supposed

1762
01:30:54,040 --> 01:30:55,960
Speaker 2: to be like a report on how the US is

1763
01:30:56,320 --> 01:30:58,840
Speaker 2: like should use nuclear weapons different ways in which like

1764
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:01,519
Speaker 2: they could approach it right. And while he's writing this report,

1765
01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:03,920
Speaker 2: because it's with this thing takes a very very long

1766
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:07,040
Speaker 2: process getting this out, he also starts working privately on

1767
01:31:07,120 --> 01:31:10,439
Speaker 2: a book of his own titled Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy.

1768
01:31:11,120 --> 01:31:12,880
Speaker 2: And this book is a version of the stuff he

1769
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:15,400
Speaker 2: wants to write. And this thing he's like fighting to

1770
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:18,439
Speaker 2: get out with the cspods. Yeah kind of, but also

1771
01:31:18,720 --> 01:31:20,720
Speaker 2: it's actually very smart what he does. Well, it'll take

1772
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:22,720
Speaker 2: us a second to get there. So this book that

1773
01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:26,640
Speaker 2: Kissinger writes, that's his own project, criticizes US threats of

1774
01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:30,240
Speaker 2: full scale nuclear attack and response to Soviet aggression. Nil

1775
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:32,760
Speaker 2: Ferguson sums it up in this way quote with his

1776
01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:36,280
Speaker 2: skill for simplifying and expressing complex ideas, Kissinger put the

1777
01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:39,759
Speaker 2: issue starkly. The dilemma of the nuclear period can therefore

1778
01:31:39,840 --> 01:31:43,080
Speaker 2: be defined as follows. The enormity of modern weapons makes

1779
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:45,960
Speaker 2: the thought of war repugnant, but the refusal to run

1780
01:31:46,040 --> 01:31:49,160
Speaker 2: any risks would amount to giving Soviet rulers a blank check.

1781
01:31:49,840 --> 01:31:52,519
Speaker 2: Kissinger's conclusions were not original. The study group at the

1782
01:31:52,560 --> 01:31:55,160
Speaker 2: Council was almost unanimous in its desire to find some

1783
01:31:55,280 --> 01:31:59,400
Speaker 2: alternative to Eisenhower's stated policy, and many defense intellectuals, most

1784
01:31:59,479 --> 01:32:02,479
Speaker 2: notably Ard Brodie and Basil little Heart, had also written

1785
01:32:02,560 --> 01:32:06,000
Speaker 2: on the subject of limited nuclear war. Kissinger's book demonstrated

1786
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:09,960
Speaker 2: his talent as a creative synthesizer of their ideas, drawing

1787
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:12,400
Speaker 2: out the implications of their work in arguing that for

1788
01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:15,479
Speaker 2: America's Cold War diplomacy to have any real substance, the

1789
01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:18,320
Speaker 2: US had to accept the possibility of the limited use

1790
01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:21,559
Speaker 2: of nuclear weapons. That Kissinger's own solution of limited nuclear

1791
01:32:21,600 --> 01:32:24,280
Speaker 2: war was also highly problematic, was less important to many

1792
01:32:24,360 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 2: contemporary observers than that it broke free from the straight

1793
01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:29,639
Speaker 2: jacket of the Eisenhower administration's policy.

1794
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:34,000
Speaker 4: So, but where does he describe like where you would

1795
01:32:34,080 --> 01:32:36,519
Speaker 4: use it is like a tactical battlefield book.

1796
01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:40,160
Speaker 2: Is it's like to win battlefield victories? To like in Vietnam,

1797
01:32:40,240 --> 01:32:42,719
Speaker 2: he will briefly flirt, well, not even all that briefly,

1798
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:46,479
Speaker 2: but he will consider using nuclear weapons to cut off

1799
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:50,280
Speaker 2: train access between Vietnam and China, which.

1800
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:54,920
Speaker 3: Isn't sane, Like as as a layman, you can cut

1801
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:59,400
Speaker 3: off trains in another way, presumably, right. I mean I've

1802
01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:01,320
Speaker 3: seen the General with buster keat and you could throw

1803
01:33:01,400 --> 01:33:02,160
Speaker 3: some logs on it.

1804
01:33:03,360 --> 01:33:07,800
Speaker 5: There there are these other things called bombs, just bombs.

1805
01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:12,720
Speaker 3: Kissinger. Yeah, so it really, I mean it is kind

1806
01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:15,400
Speaker 3: of just itchy trigger finger, and it is like, if

1807
01:33:15,439 --> 01:33:18,200
Speaker 3: you live in the realm of this sort of dark thinking,

1808
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:21,160
Speaker 3: how are you not going to start, you know, thinking

1809
01:33:21,240 --> 01:33:24,960
Speaker 3: of ways that are just even more vicious brutal.

1810
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:28,960
Speaker 4: He's basically saying they need to think we're a chained

1811
01:33:29,479 --> 01:33:33,120
Speaker 4: mad dog, and if we you let the dog off

1812
01:33:33,160 --> 01:33:35,200
Speaker 4: the leash once and he attacks the postman and then

1813
01:33:35,320 --> 01:33:36,679
Speaker 4: and then everyone's going to fucking.

1814
01:33:36,479 --> 01:33:40,000
Speaker 3: Know then you don't get the mail anymore. Yeah, then

1815
01:33:40,040 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 3: you start seeing your mail. We've bombed Japan already, like

1816
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:47,200
Speaker 3: everyard gets it already, mind of course, Oh my god.

1817
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:50,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like it's this theoretical weapon that's never

1818
01:33:50,120 --> 01:33:51,200
Speaker 2: been used and.

1819
01:33:51,240 --> 01:33:54,360
Speaker 3: It worked pretty well as far as making people be like,

1820
01:33:54,439 --> 01:33:57,280
Speaker 3: god damn, they are out of their minds. Yeah, look crazy,

1821
01:33:57,400 --> 01:33:58,040
Speaker 3: oh shit.

1822
01:33:59,320 --> 01:34:02,439
Speaker 2: But it's all Also there's a there's a factor here

1823
01:34:02,880 --> 01:34:05,759
Speaker 2: a part of me wonders if he even really believed

1824
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:08,880
Speaker 2: about this or cared about whether or not nukes should

1825
01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:11,040
Speaker 2: be used tactically, and if it was more a matter

1826
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:13,519
Speaker 2: of this is a big debate of the day, and

1827
01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:18,000
Speaker 2: if I publicly take the most contrarian thing intellectuals who

1828
01:34:18,040 --> 01:34:20,400
Speaker 2: don't really care about what works, but who care about

1829
01:34:20,400 --> 01:34:23,200
Speaker 2: who's thinking creatively, Like right, Like that's the thing. He's like, Well,

1830
01:34:23,439 --> 01:34:25,120
Speaker 2: it's not about whether or not his plan would work.

1831
01:34:25,160 --> 01:34:27,680
Speaker 2: It's about we're getting out of this straight jacket Eisenhower's

1832
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:29,400
Speaker 2: put us in. And it's like, no, that's not all

1833
01:34:29,439 --> 01:34:30,080
Speaker 2: that matters.

1834
01:34:30,280 --> 01:34:36,679
Speaker 4: Finally, Yeah, you know, it's really funny, Well just ironic

1835
01:34:36,760 --> 01:34:39,760
Speaker 4: about this is the funny fun it. Places like the

1836
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:43,240
Speaker 4: Heritage Foundation for years have been have been saying that

1837
01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:50,120
Speaker 4: Prutin would use tactical battlefield nukes, and that's why he's unhinged.

1838
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:54,760
Speaker 3: That's one of the reasons. Yeah, it's I would say,

1839
01:34:54,800 --> 01:35:00,280
Speaker 3: anyone who would do that is crazy. Yeah, imagine keep

1840
01:35:00,320 --> 01:35:01,240
Speaker 3: him on as an advisor.

1841
01:35:01,600 --> 01:35:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's my feeling on nuke's. Don't shoot them

1842
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:08,760
Speaker 2: at people ever?

1843
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:11,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, its bad.

1844
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:15,400
Speaker 2: Maybe an Independence Day kind of situation. I'll be honest,

1845
01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:17,200
Speaker 2: when I watch Independence Day, I think, yeah, I might

1846
01:35:17,240 --> 01:35:18,880
Speaker 2: shoot some news. I might at that point try a

1847
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:21,320
Speaker 2: nuker too. Yeah, but you have Randy Quaid I do.

1848
01:35:22,200 --> 01:35:24,960
Speaker 2: I do hang out with him a lot. That's my

1849
01:35:25,120 --> 01:35:28,639
Speaker 2: main plan. If things go wrong, Randy get on the plane.

1850
01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:33,519
Speaker 2: He lives in my basement.

1851
01:35:34,600 --> 01:35:37,360
Speaker 3: That actually tracks from the Instagram videos I've been seeing.

1852
01:35:40,439 --> 01:35:44,160
Speaker 2: So Kissinger's book was published in nineteen fifty seven, and

1853
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:47,600
Speaker 2: it almost immediately sold seventeen thousand copies, which is a

1854
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:50,720
Speaker 2: lot for a wonky book on nuclear warfare. It is

1855
01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:53,679
Speaker 2: on the New York Times bestseller list for fourteen weeks.

1856
01:35:53,920 --> 01:35:55,920
Speaker 3: Wow, Jesus Christ.

1857
01:35:55,840 --> 01:35:56,840
Speaker 2: Yeah it's not great.

1858
01:35:57,320 --> 01:35:57,479
Speaker 3: Now.

1859
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:01,000
Speaker 2: He's timing is perfect. He puts this book out right

1860
01:36:01,120 --> 01:36:03,800
Speaker 2: as the Soviets make two big advances in Hungary, there's

1861
01:36:03,880 --> 01:36:06,720
Speaker 2: like a revolution that they kind of crush, and then

1862
01:36:06,760 --> 01:36:09,400
Speaker 2: in the Suez, where like that brings the British and

1863
01:36:09,400 --> 01:36:11,120
Speaker 2: the French are like fucking around in the Suez Canal

1864
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:14,200
Speaker 2: and the Soviets are like stop or we'll do something bad,

1865
01:36:14,360 --> 01:36:17,200
Speaker 2: and NATO like backs the fuck off. Right, So the

1866
01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:20,160
Speaker 2: Soviets have like two big kind of foreign policy wins

1867
01:36:20,200 --> 01:36:23,599
Speaker 2: in this period and Americans can't look at this as like, well,

1868
01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:27,000
Speaker 2: you know, maybe the fucking NATO shouldn't have been fucking

1869
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:29,120
Speaker 2: around the Suez, and yeah, that shit in Hungry is

1870
01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:30,960
Speaker 2: fucked up, but like maybe we can't do anything about it.

1871
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:32,960
Speaker 2: They're like, we should listen to the guy who says,

1872
01:36:33,000 --> 01:36:34,080
Speaker 2: what if we nuked them, you.

1873
01:36:34,120 --> 01:36:35,360
Speaker 3: Know, don't run.

1874
01:36:35,640 --> 01:36:39,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's where people go, right, They don't. They

1875
01:36:39,880 --> 01:36:42,720
Speaker 2: they're Americans. They don't take the rational route.

1876
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:45,080
Speaker 3: Now, No, they hate us part nuclear freedom.

1877
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:47,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, they listened to the crisiest person in the room

1878
01:36:47,800 --> 01:36:50,400
Speaker 2: about this. Right, there's a lot of things that you

1879
01:36:50,520 --> 01:36:52,640
Speaker 2: can say about both what happened in Hungary and the

1880
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:55,439
Speaker 2: Suez crisis that are not why don't we use nukes

1881
01:36:55,439 --> 01:36:55,920
Speaker 2: more often?

1882
01:36:56,120 --> 01:36:56,400
Speaker 3: Sure?

1883
01:36:56,760 --> 01:37:02,479
Speaker 2: By God, kissing your noses, audience, you know, Kisody writes

1884
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:04,400
Speaker 2: this book, and The New York Times in their review

1885
01:37:04,439 --> 01:37:07,000
Speaker 2: of it. Right, For the first time since President Eisenhower

1886
01:37:07,040 --> 01:37:09,599
Speaker 2: took office, officials at the highest government levels are displaying

1887
01:37:09,640 --> 01:37:12,200
Speaker 2: interest in the theory of the little or limited war.

1888
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:16,680
Speaker 2: The theory of massive retaliation is re examined. I love

1889
01:37:16,720 --> 01:37:20,040
Speaker 2: that those are that those go together, those are the options.

1890
01:37:20,160 --> 01:37:22,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then it's like the little war is the

1891
01:37:23,040 --> 01:37:26,280
Speaker 3: nuclear war, Like it's the baby war for us.

1892
01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:29,879
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, hand me out, hear me out, baby nukes,

1893
01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:31,559
Speaker 4: little tiny nukes.

1894
01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:33,720
Speaker 2: Well yeah, it's like if someone's like, look, we got

1895
01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:35,599
Speaker 2: to decide if one of which of these is going

1896
01:37:35,640 --> 01:37:39,680
Speaker 2: to be legal Sarah nerve gas bombs for civilians or

1897
01:37:40,439 --> 01:37:43,320
Speaker 2: or chlorine gas bombs for civilians. One type of poison

1898
01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:45,760
Speaker 2: gas bomb has to be legal, like we all we

1899
01:37:45,880 --> 01:37:47,360
Speaker 2: have to have access. Everyone has to be able to

1900
01:37:47,400 --> 01:37:50,639
Speaker 2: have one kind of poison gas Two is crazy taste.

1901
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:51,000
Speaker 3: Great?

1902
01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:55,720
Speaker 2: What if nobody has those? Oh god, that's not you know,

1903
01:37:55,880 --> 01:37:59,920
Speaker 2: that's not where things go here. So President Eisenhower is

1904
01:38:00,080 --> 01:38:03,000
Speaker 2: given a summary of Kissinger's book. You know, he's a president.

1905
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:05,960
Speaker 2: They don't they don't read books. Yeah, it's gets Yeah,

1906
01:38:05,960 --> 01:38:08,200
Speaker 2: he gets a cliff notes and he recommends it to

1907
01:38:08,320 --> 01:38:11,559
Speaker 2: his Secretary of State John Foster Doulas we have talked

1908
01:38:11,560 --> 01:38:12,160
Speaker 2: about quite a.

1909
01:38:12,160 --> 01:38:15,560
Speaker 3: Lot on God, it was just yeah, I mean, who, like,

1910
01:38:15,720 --> 01:38:18,000
Speaker 3: if he's the rational mind.

1911
01:38:18,640 --> 01:38:21,519
Speaker 6: If Dulas is being like this, dude seems a little

1912
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:24,560
Speaker 6: out of his mind, big problem, that's yeah, that's not

1913
01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:28,080
Speaker 6: great because John Foster Dulas fucking lunatic.

1914
01:38:28,280 --> 01:38:32,960
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So the vice president at this point is

1915
01:38:32,960 --> 01:38:35,040
Speaker 2: a little dude you might have heard of called Richard

1916
01:38:35,080 --> 01:38:38,640
Speaker 2: Millhouse Nixon. He gets photographed with a coffee copy of

1917
01:38:38,720 --> 01:38:42,120
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger's book, which is not great. I mean, it's

1918
01:38:42,120 --> 01:38:44,720
Speaker 2: actually great, foreshadow, it's just not writing a screenplay.

1919
01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:45,559
Speaker 3: This is great.

1920
01:38:45,960 --> 01:38:46,160
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1921
01:38:46,280 --> 01:38:48,960
Speaker 2: Really, this is like season one of the Nixon Show.

1922
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:52,000
Speaker 2: And you just like see him with Kissinger's book, right right, yeah,

1923
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:57,920
Speaker 2: yeah right, good television, you know. So the book is

1924
01:38:57,920 --> 01:39:00,400
Speaker 2: successful enough that it provokes Rockefeller, who gotten in the

1925
01:39:00,439 --> 01:39:03,000
Speaker 2: job at the CFR, to rush out the report that

1926
01:39:03,080 --> 01:39:06,840
Speaker 2: Nixon had been or that Kissinger had been making. And yes,

1927
01:39:07,120 --> 01:39:11,120
Speaker 2: christ yeah, the report from the CFR concludes, the willingness

1928
01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:14,240
Speaker 2: to engage in nuclear war when necessary is part of

1929
01:39:14,360 --> 01:39:15,439
Speaker 2: the price of our freedom.

1930
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:19,040
Speaker 3: Wow, I mean the price of our freedom is pretty good.

1931
01:39:19,200 --> 01:39:22,440
Speaker 3: Damn price he isn't it? Is it combinsive?

1932
01:39:23,080 --> 01:39:23,320
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1933
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:25,040
Speaker 3: Man?

1934
01:39:25,240 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 4: How can we How can we live if we're not dead?

1935
01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:28,160
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1936
01:39:28,200 --> 01:39:30,200
Speaker 2: How can we live without nuclear fallout?

1937
01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:34,000
Speaker 3: It's it's and it's amazing that it like it all

1938
01:39:34,320 --> 01:39:36,479
Speaker 3: like I if it was part of his plan or not.

1939
01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:39,720
Speaker 3: Like you said, the timing is just pretty remarkable to

1940
01:39:39,800 --> 01:39:42,639
Speaker 3: release this book and then it actually shifts the way

1941
01:39:42,680 --> 01:39:44,559
Speaker 3: that they view this to me, Yeah, you know, it's

1942
01:39:44,600 --> 01:39:46,280
Speaker 3: actually he's got a really good point in his best

1943
01:39:46,320 --> 01:39:49,479
Speaker 3: selling book about how nukes are cool, how nukes are sweet.

1944
01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:50,800
Speaker 3: You know I am.

1945
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:53,400
Speaker 2: I am excited for Ben Shapiro's book on the same

1946
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:55,880
Speaker 2: subject to lead to the annihilation of the whole life.

1947
01:39:56,400 --> 01:39:59,720
Speaker 3: Yeah wait, I'm gonna live underground. So that's a good

1948
01:39:59,760 --> 01:40:00,240
Speaker 3: idea to you.

1949
01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:05,920
Speaker 2: So this report is a weird like weirdly popular like again,

1950
01:40:06,000 --> 01:40:10,360
Speaker 2: this is a report from the Center or from the CFR,

1951
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:13,479
Speaker 2: from the Council on Foreign Relations, which is like not

1952
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:15,679
Speaker 2: you don't expect that to go viral?

1953
01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:20,000
Speaker 3: Right, you know you read this pamphlet. Have you read

1954
01:40:20,080 --> 01:40:23,760
Speaker 3: this study by the CFR.

1955
01:40:24,960 --> 01:40:27,000
Speaker 5: I mean, you can never let you down when you're like, oh,

1956
01:40:27,080 --> 01:40:29,480
Speaker 5: that won't happen, that won't happen, that won't.

1957
01:40:29,240 --> 01:40:31,360
Speaker 3: Go Yeah right it does. Yeah.

1958
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:34,519
Speaker 2: So Rockefeller actually goes on the Today Show to talk

1959
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:36,120
Speaker 2: about this report the CFR.

1960
01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:41,320
Speaker 3: Wither, I know, it's amazing Macaroni castrole.

1961
01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:48,280
Speaker 2: So next, so he gives people of the Today Show

1962
01:40:48,320 --> 01:40:50,479
Speaker 2: an address where they can write for a copy of

1963
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 2: this report. No, they get forty five thousand requests the

1964
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:54,720
Speaker 2: first day and.

1965
01:40:56,600 --> 01:40:59,840
Speaker 3: The next Hell's post office is over.

1966
01:41:00,120 --> 01:41:00,280
Speaker 11: Well.

1967
01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:03,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, the media US media called this report quote the

1968
01:41:04,120 --> 01:41:07,120
Speaker 2: answer to Sputnik, which is like, hey, the Russian sent

1969
01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:13,000
Speaker 2: sent an unarmed ball into space to further exploration. We

1970
01:41:13,120 --> 01:41:16,320
Speaker 2: should this book about how everyone should be nuking everyone.

1971
01:41:16,400 --> 01:41:17,160
Speaker 2: It's the answer to that.

1972
01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:20,559
Speaker 3: We're thinking that this report on nuclear weapons will actually

1973
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:23,400
Speaker 3: show the Russians that to not go to space. Yeah,

1974
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:26,040
Speaker 3: that's space. If you get rid of Russias, I can't

1975
01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:27,200
Speaker 3: go to space. Do you understand.

1976
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:30,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it is it's worth noting because I think,

1977
01:41:30,200 --> 01:41:32,840
Speaker 2: like in our popular history, the answer to Sputnik is

1978
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:35,519
Speaker 2: the Apollo missions and its frame beauty, which you know

1979
01:41:35,640 --> 01:41:38,200
Speaker 2: did eventually happen. But no, the first answer to Sputnik

1980
01:41:38,280 --> 01:41:40,160
Speaker 2: was a report about how we should be nuking each

1981
01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:40,960
Speaker 2: other more often.

1982
01:41:41,080 --> 01:41:45,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I get they put a ball in the orbit,

1983
01:41:45,280 --> 01:41:47,160
Speaker 4: so we should we should blow up SAT.

1984
01:41:47,360 --> 01:41:50,200
Speaker 2: We should be ready to drop thirteen nuclear warheads on

1985
01:41:50,280 --> 01:41:51,719
Speaker 2: Berlin at a second's notice.

1986
01:41:51,880 --> 01:41:52,760
Speaker 3: That's what I showed them.

1987
01:41:55,240 --> 01:41:59,040
Speaker 2: So this makes Henry Kissinger famous. He is all over

1988
01:41:59,120 --> 01:41:59,519
Speaker 2: the place.

1989
01:42:00,320 --> 01:42:03,240
Speaker 3: This is his This is how we become famous.

1990
01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:06,760
Speaker 4: Want some guy, some guys watch the today show when

1991
01:42:06,760 --> 01:42:08,600
Speaker 4: he buys the books, so we can tell everybody at the.

1992
01:42:08,600 --> 01:42:10,799
Speaker 5: Elks Club that we need to use nukes.

1993
01:42:11,040 --> 01:42:15,120
Speaker 3: Someone's happening. Give this accountant a soccer ball. Some people

1994
01:42:15,240 --> 01:42:18,920
Speaker 3: get famous because their dad is one of oj Simpson's lawyers.

1995
01:42:19,479 --> 01:42:22,000
Speaker 2: Some people get famous because they write a book about

1996
01:42:22,000 --> 01:42:23,000
Speaker 2: how nuclear warfare.

1997
01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:25,120
Speaker 3: It is not that bad. Uh huh, you know, it's

1998
01:42:25,280 --> 01:42:30,120
Speaker 3: just in fame. It's a crapshoot. Absolutely fuck.

1999
01:42:30,720 --> 01:42:33,240
Speaker 4: I mean, imagine being an anti nuke person at this point,

2000
01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:35,120
Speaker 4: you're just like, wait, what is going on?

2001
01:42:36,360 --> 01:42:39,639
Speaker 3: Have you read the report? It's so good. We're gonna

2002
01:42:39,640 --> 01:42:41,920
Speaker 3: show them if what they should not be going to space.

2003
01:42:42,280 --> 01:42:44,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, next time they put a satellite up, we're gonna

2004
01:42:44,760 --> 01:42:46,040
Speaker 2: kill everyone in Paraguay.

2005
01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:48,519
Speaker 3: What we need to do is a radiated country.

2006
01:42:50,840 --> 01:42:54,439
Speaker 2: So on July fourteenth, nineteen fifty eight, Mike Wallace gives

2007
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:57,559
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger his first big break into the public sphere.

2008
01:42:57,680 --> 01:43:02,680
Speaker 3: So many what happened? It really is, it really is

2009
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:05,960
Speaker 3: just fucking disgusting because I go through this all the

2010
01:43:06,040 --> 01:43:08,280
Speaker 3: time on our show, where I'm like, it is the

2011
01:43:08,360 --> 01:43:12,200
Speaker 3: same shit. But again, it's just media using its plats

2012
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:16,800
Speaker 3: irresponsibly to normalize things. That are fucking batship.

2013
01:43:17,040 --> 01:43:20,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's great, Like sixty minutes having a fucking whole

2014
01:43:20,960 --> 01:43:23,800
Speaker 4: segment on the havana fucking.

2015
01:43:23,640 --> 01:43:28,320
Speaker 3: Sound it's come on, Dave, you know that's real. I

2016
01:43:28,360 --> 01:43:33,040
Speaker 3: suffered from that for two years, those crickets. Oh man.

2017
01:43:33,360 --> 01:43:36,120
Speaker 2: I will say, like, the stupidest joke that I laugh

2018
01:43:36,160 --> 01:43:38,880
Speaker 2: at every time is, yeah, I got havana syndrome. Having

2019
01:43:38,920 --> 01:43:43,960
Speaker 2: another beer never doesn't get a chuckle out of me.

2020
01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:45,920
Speaker 5: But we've done.

2021
01:43:46,040 --> 01:43:48,240
Speaker 4: We've had sixty minutes. Come on, sixty minutes. Did the

2022
01:43:48,439 --> 01:43:52,680
Speaker 4: uh the uh satanic scare shit? Well, yeah, they were

2023
01:43:52,760 --> 01:43:56,400
Speaker 4: big lots dandles, like they just run with ideas that

2024
01:43:56,479 --> 01:43:57,240
Speaker 4: are crazy.

2025
01:43:57,479 --> 01:43:57,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2026
01:43:58,360 --> 01:44:01,400
Speaker 2: There, I mean because for people who are at the

2027
01:44:01,479 --> 01:44:04,120
Speaker 2: level Mike Wallace is, the definition of journalist is not

2028
01:44:05,080 --> 01:44:07,720
Speaker 2: afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted. It's be a

2029
01:44:07,800 --> 01:44:12,040
Speaker 2: giant shithead. Yeah right, be a huge shihead.

2030
01:44:13,320 --> 01:44:14,920
Speaker 3: Man. Oh man.

2031
01:44:15,200 --> 01:44:18,920
Speaker 2: So Mike Wallace introduces Henry Kissinger, the guy whose one

2032
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:21,639
Speaker 2: achievement is a book about how nukes are cool. By

2033
01:44:21,720 --> 01:44:25,360
Speaker 2: saying this, in the field of foreign policy and military affairs,

2034
01:44:25,439 --> 01:44:27,760
Speaker 2: doctor Kissinger, you're acknowledged to be one of the most

2035
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:29,400
Speaker 2: penetrating minds in the country.

2036
01:44:29,479 --> 01:44:30,400
Speaker 3: Oh, he's penetrating.

2037
01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:34,960
Speaker 2: He is penetrating like an Atlas missile penetrates the cloud

2038
01:44:35,040 --> 01:44:37,439
Speaker 2: cover above a city full of women and children.

2039
01:44:37,600 --> 01:44:38,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow.

2040
01:44:39,880 --> 01:44:44,000
Speaker 2: Now, during the interview, Kissinger expressed that quote a capitalist society,

2041
01:44:44,160 --> 01:44:46,640
Speaker 2: or what is more interesting to me, a free society,

2042
01:44:46,800 --> 01:44:50,479
Speaker 2: is a more revolutionary phenomenon than nineteenth century socialism. I

2043
01:44:50,560 --> 01:44:53,000
Speaker 2: think we should go on the spiritual offensive.

2044
01:44:53,280 --> 01:44:58,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, the spiritual with a nuclear extension with Lukes. Yes,

2045
01:45:00,520 --> 01:45:04,519
Speaker 3: so he's connecting, he's connecting. You know, the two options

2046
01:45:04,640 --> 01:45:09,880
Speaker 3: nineteenth century socialist capitalism or the current day capitalism and nukes.

2047
01:45:10,439 --> 01:45:14,200
Speaker 3: Those are the options. Yeah. And Mike Wallace just empty

2048
01:45:14,280 --> 01:45:17,240
Speaker 3: headedly sits there and goes like, I really love your property.

2049
01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:20,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, just smiles in behind his eyes as a dial tone.

2050
01:45:24,560 --> 01:45:25,599
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

2051
01:45:25,960 --> 01:45:28,880
Speaker 2: So this earns him finally the job at Harvard that

2052
01:45:28,920 --> 01:45:29,519
Speaker 2: he'd coveted.

2053
01:45:29,800 --> 01:45:34,880
Speaker 3: This is why they give him. Shut, shut the fuck up.

2054
01:45:35,439 --> 01:45:38,680
Speaker 3: It was ever simple. I can't I.

2055
01:45:38,800 --> 01:45:44,040
Speaker 4: Cannot get over how fucking evil Harvard is. It's so good,

2056
01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:48,800
Speaker 4: it is monstrous from it's the best. It is a

2057
01:45:49,120 --> 01:45:52,080
Speaker 4: horrific some of us with their asshole.

2058
01:45:56,560 --> 01:46:01,519
Speaker 2: Anti Harvard action. So he gets his Harvard job, and

2059
01:46:01,560 --> 01:46:05,000
Speaker 2: he keeps writing. In nineteen sixty one, taking a heart.

2060
01:46:05,080 --> 01:46:06,120
Speaker 3: What's he doing at Harvard?

2061
01:46:06,240 --> 01:46:10,000
Speaker 2: He's like teaching some shit, you know, Kissinger stuff type classes. Yeah,

2062
01:46:10,560 --> 01:46:11,920
Speaker 2: talking about Spangler a lot.

2063
01:46:12,080 --> 01:46:12,280
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2064
01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:17,639
Speaker 2: Nukes are awesome too, Nukes are awesome. Freedom is requires

2065
01:46:17,680 --> 01:46:20,360
Speaker 2: an absence of morality, teaching kids good stuff, you know,

2066
01:46:20,760 --> 01:46:25,360
Speaker 2: teaching kids good things. So in nineteen sixty one he

2067
01:46:25,400 --> 01:46:28,280
Speaker 2: publishes a book titled The Necessity of Choice, which is

2068
01:46:28,320 --> 01:46:31,080
Speaker 2: his manifesto on how the United States should approach foreign

2069
01:46:31,120 --> 01:46:33,960
Speaker 2: policy in the nineteen sixties. It is not an optimistic

2070
01:46:34,040 --> 01:46:37,240
Speaker 2: piece of writing. Quote, the United States cannot afford another

2071
01:46:37,320 --> 01:46:39,719
Speaker 2: decline like the one which has characterized the past decade

2072
01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:42,560
Speaker 2: and a half fifteen years of more of a deterioration

2073
01:46:42,680 --> 01:46:44,719
Speaker 2: of our position in the world such as we've experienced

2074
01:46:44,760 --> 01:46:47,559
Speaker 2: since World War Two, would find us reduced to fortress

2075
01:46:47,600 --> 01:46:50,360
Speaker 2: America in a world in which we had become largely irrelevant.

2076
01:46:50,640 --> 01:46:53,240
Speaker 2: Our margin of survival has narrowed dangerously.

2077
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:55,080
Speaker 5: What in the fuck is he talking about?

2078
01:46:55,840 --> 01:47:00,120
Speaker 2: Well, America influence. No, this is like the high of

2079
01:47:00,160 --> 01:47:03,439
Speaker 2: American power. Obviously, yeah to anyone who's not, but Kissinger

2080
01:47:03,600 --> 01:47:05,880
Speaker 2: is he knows this is bullshit. He is part of

2081
01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:07,639
Speaker 2: a group of people who are pushing Have you guys

2082
01:47:07,680 --> 01:47:08,800
Speaker 2: heard the term missile gap?

2083
01:47:09,160 --> 01:47:09,200
Speaker 9: No?

2084
01:47:09,560 --> 01:47:09,600
Speaker 3: No.

2085
01:47:10,160 --> 01:47:13,120
Speaker 2: In the the early stages of the Kennedy administration, there

2086
01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 2: is suddenly this huge and this is both like in

2087
01:47:15,200 --> 01:47:17,720
Speaker 2: conversations that people are having in DC and in like

2088
01:47:17,800 --> 01:47:20,240
Speaker 2: the media. There's this constant talk of a missile gap,

2089
01:47:20,280 --> 01:47:23,599
Speaker 2: this idea that these Soviets have outpaced us in missile

2090
01:47:23,680 --> 01:47:25,840
Speaker 2: development and in the number of missiles they have, and

2091
01:47:25,880 --> 01:47:28,120
Speaker 2: there's talking about like there's bomber gaps, there's tank gaps,

2092
01:47:28,120 --> 01:47:31,320
Speaker 2: there's talk about like these gaps between this idea that

2093
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:34,920
Speaker 2: is totally bullshit. Like not that the Soviets have not

2094
01:47:35,040 --> 01:47:37,519
Speaker 2: made a lot of weapons, so he makes plenty of weapons,

2095
01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:39,800
Speaker 2: but the United there is no point in the Cold

2096
01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:42,160
Speaker 2: War in which the United States is like out fucking

2097
01:47:42,360 --> 01:47:44,960
Speaker 2: gunned to any degree that like has it could be

2098
01:47:45,360 --> 01:47:47,679
Speaker 2: anyone reasonable could call like a missile gap.

2099
01:47:48,000 --> 01:47:50,280
Speaker 3: It just does not happen. It feels like we're still

2100
01:47:50,320 --> 01:47:53,040
Speaker 3: responding to that today to be like, do do first

2101
01:47:53,120 --> 01:47:54,120
Speaker 3: by a log shot?

2102
01:47:54,560 --> 01:47:57,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, it's it's it's this, it's it's this,

2103
01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:00,559
Speaker 2: it's not I would say on him, but it's very

2104
01:48:00,560 --> 01:48:03,439
Speaker 2: reasonable because the argument comes primarily out of the Defense

2105
01:48:03,520 --> 01:48:06,400
Speaker 2: Department and the growing defense industry, who it's great for

2106
01:48:06,520 --> 01:48:08,520
Speaker 2: them if everyone thinks there's a missile.

2107
01:48:08,240 --> 01:48:10,920
Speaker 3: Gap, like of course, yeah, you got to build a

2108
01:48:10,960 --> 01:48:13,040
Speaker 3: lot more weapons. We'll sell them to you. I thought

2109
01:48:13,080 --> 01:48:15,519
Speaker 3: it was the place you could get Khaki's on your rockets.

2110
01:48:15,560 --> 01:48:16,920
Speaker 3: But you have a missile gap.

2111
01:48:18,400 --> 01:48:19,439
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, a welcome.

2112
01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:22,760
Speaker 3: We'll be right back. Question. I'm sorry, you know what, Yes,

2113
01:48:22,880 --> 01:48:24,639
Speaker 3: actually this is time for an ad break.

2114
01:48:26,720 --> 01:48:28,519
Speaker 2: So you know, if you're looking for a way to

2115
01:48:28,600 --> 01:48:31,519
Speaker 2: dress up your RNI and X knife missile before firing

2116
01:48:31,600 --> 01:48:35,360
Speaker 2: it into some guy's car, check out the missile gap.

2117
01:48:41,200 --> 01:48:42,160
Speaker 3: We are back.

2118
01:48:42,920 --> 01:48:46,479
Speaker 2: So it's bullshit, the idea of the missile gap. And

2119
01:48:46,640 --> 01:48:48,960
Speaker 2: Kissinger is smart enough to know this, but he is

2120
01:48:49,040 --> 01:48:51,320
Speaker 2: one of the major proponents. He's not one of the

2121
01:48:51,400 --> 01:48:53,360
Speaker 2: there's other guys who are more influential pushing it, like

2122
01:48:53,400 --> 01:48:55,280
Speaker 2: actually within the halls of power, right, because he's not

2123
01:48:55,600 --> 01:48:57,880
Speaker 2: super within the halls of power yet, but he is.

2124
01:48:58,120 --> 01:49:00,320
Speaker 2: He's all over TV and shit, like he's guy that

2125
01:49:00,439 --> 01:49:03,000
Speaker 2: you call now, Like once you get in the rolodex

2126
01:49:03,080 --> 01:49:04,920
Speaker 2: of media people, you stay there, you.

2127
01:49:04,960 --> 01:49:06,600
Speaker 4: Know, he's the nuke guy you want to he's the

2128
01:49:06,680 --> 01:49:09,320
Speaker 4: other guy, a positive nuke guy. There's people that you

2129
01:49:09,360 --> 01:49:10,559
Speaker 4: gonna get the negative nuke guy in.

2130
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:12,479
Speaker 2: The positive nuke guy, and he's the guy who says

2131
01:49:12,479 --> 01:49:14,720
Speaker 2: we don't have enough. You know, the thing, we've ever

2132
01:49:14,920 --> 01:49:18,920
Speaker 2: not had enough of nuclear weapons. He is a big

2133
01:49:19,000 --> 01:49:21,080
Speaker 2: part of why we have so many fucking nukes and

2134
01:49:21,160 --> 01:49:22,960
Speaker 2: why the Russians have so many fucking nukes because once

2135
01:49:23,040 --> 01:49:24,880
Speaker 2: the US, like, once you start this, like we have

2136
01:49:24,920 --> 01:49:26,840
Speaker 2: to build a lot more nukes, They're gonna build even

2137
01:49:26,880 --> 01:49:28,679
Speaker 2: more nukes, and like then you're gonna get to build

2138
01:49:28,680 --> 01:49:30,280
Speaker 2: any more nukes because you can say they built so

2139
01:49:30,320 --> 01:49:32,080
Speaker 2: many more nukes, we don't have enough nukes now, and

2140
01:49:32,600 --> 01:49:34,439
Speaker 2: then you wind up put like twelve thousand of them

2141
01:49:34,479 --> 01:49:34,880
Speaker 2: in the world.

2142
01:49:35,240 --> 01:49:37,400
Speaker 3: I have a name for that, I can. I've come

2143
01:49:37,439 --> 01:49:40,280
Speaker 3: over right now. Nuclear arms race. That's cool.

2144
01:49:40,560 --> 01:49:44,120
Speaker 2: That's that's a neat one. We should finally a term

2145
01:49:44,200 --> 01:49:44,439
Speaker 2: for it.

2146
01:49:44,600 --> 01:49:46,640
Speaker 3: We should nuke him. I mean that would just be

2147
01:49:46,800 --> 01:49:50,200
Speaker 3: like the one thing I would one made it, just

2148
01:49:50,360 --> 01:49:53,800
Speaker 3: nuke him one if the dam Crockett handheld missile watcher

2149
01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:55,439
Speaker 3: sweating every wee could do.

2150
01:49:56,080 --> 01:49:58,840
Speaker 4: What about just a little a little tiny nuke that

2151
01:49:58,920 --> 01:50:04,479
Speaker 4: we shoot into him explodes, But it's just a little guy, Kissinger.

2152
01:50:04,640 --> 01:50:07,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're nuclear weapon.

2153
01:50:07,400 --> 01:50:10,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he would just ingest it and go I

2154
01:50:10,560 --> 01:50:14,080
Speaker 3: am no, I'm bigger and more upset it is.

2155
01:50:14,240 --> 01:50:17,559
Speaker 2: It is amazing to think about how seriously this guy

2156
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:20,639
Speaker 2: gets treated by everyone immediately, and how much influence he's

2157
01:50:20,640 --> 01:50:23,439
Speaker 2: allowed to have on an incredibly dangerous thing. And this

2158
01:50:23,600 --> 01:50:28,360
Speaker 2: is the same guy who got tricked by Farranos, the

2159
01:50:28,520 --> 01:50:31,760
Speaker 2: same nude he gets winked by the fake blood lady

2160
01:50:31,800 --> 01:50:38,439
Speaker 2: in the turtleneck. It's really amazing. Yeah, it's so funny.

2161
01:50:38,680 --> 01:50:46,240
Speaker 2: It's so funny. So uh, Kissinger is is not Again,

2162
01:50:46,320 --> 01:50:48,080
Speaker 2: he doesn't come up with the idea of the missile gap,

2163
01:50:48,120 --> 01:50:50,880
Speaker 2: but he's like a very influential voice in pushing this idea. Right,

2164
01:50:50,920 --> 01:50:53,559
Speaker 2: he's a he's a part of this. So he doesn't

2165
01:50:53,560 --> 01:50:55,360
Speaker 2: get there if we could out honestly do a whole

2166
01:50:55,400 --> 01:50:57,560
Speaker 2: episode on like why there's so many fucking nukes that

2167
01:50:57,600 --> 01:50:59,200
Speaker 2: this would be a part of. But he is, he's

2168
01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:02,200
Speaker 2: a factor in this massive arms build up, and he

2169
01:51:02,320 --> 01:51:06,160
Speaker 2: also starts, uh, but but he's also like he's he's

2170
01:51:06,320 --> 01:51:08,800
Speaker 2: just doing this for careerism. Reasons because it like gets

2171
01:51:08,880 --> 01:51:10,640
Speaker 2: him in good with people who are in power. And

2172
01:51:10,720 --> 01:51:13,840
Speaker 2: part of how you know that is that Kennedy not

2173
01:51:13,960 --> 01:51:15,560
Speaker 2: a guy I'll give a lot of credit to. But

2174
01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:17,719
Speaker 2: one of the things Kennedy says is that, like limited

2175
01:51:17,800 --> 01:51:22,360
Speaker 2: nuclear war is insane. Like fuck you, Henry Kissinger. He

2176
01:51:22,439 --> 01:51:25,160
Speaker 2: doesn't say that, but he it. It gets made clear

2177
01:51:25,280 --> 01:51:27,439
Speaker 2: the connections that Kissinger has in the in the Kennedy

2178
01:51:27,479 --> 01:51:30,960
Speaker 2: administration make it clear that like JFK does not buy

2179
01:51:31,320 --> 01:51:33,280
Speaker 2: your attitudes on limited nuclear war.

2180
01:51:33,600 --> 01:51:34,160
Speaker 3: And so he.

2181
01:51:34,360 --> 01:51:37,960
Speaker 2: Stops talking about that. He wants to become part He

2182
01:51:38,000 --> 01:51:39,760
Speaker 2: doesn't believe in shit, but he wants to be in

2183
01:51:39,800 --> 01:51:43,000
Speaker 2: the JFK administration, Right, so he stops pushing this thing

2184
01:51:43,080 --> 01:51:46,040
Speaker 2: that makes him famous and saying other shit because he'll

2185
01:51:46,040 --> 01:51:47,640
Speaker 2: get it'll get him closer to power. And that's all

2186
01:51:47,640 --> 01:51:49,200
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger really cares about.

2187
01:51:49,400 --> 01:51:51,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I wonder if, like the Today Show is

2188
01:51:51,280 --> 01:51:51,720
Speaker 5: calling up.

2189
01:51:51,680 --> 01:51:53,799
Speaker 4: And he's like, you know, I'm not really doing nukes anymore.

2190
01:51:54,439 --> 01:51:55,320
Speaker 3: No, he comes on.

2191
01:51:55,760 --> 01:51:58,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, the quote I'm gonna quote actually from Nia Ferguson

2192
01:51:58,160 --> 01:52:00,400
Speaker 2: here he explains like what he starts doing on the

2193
01:52:00,479 --> 01:52:06,320
Speaker 2: Today Show. Yeah, Kissinger now advocated a conventional arms build up,

2194
01:52:06,360 --> 01:52:09,240
Speaker 2: since the dividing line between conventional and nuclear weapons is

2195
01:52:09,280 --> 01:52:12,240
Speaker 2: more familiar and therefore easier to maintain. He continued to

2196
01:52:12,320 --> 01:52:15,040
Speaker 2: insist that the United States developed smaller nuclear weapons, but

2197
01:52:15,120 --> 01:52:17,400
Speaker 2: he moved his own position to where he thought Kennedy's was.

2198
01:52:17,720 --> 01:52:20,000
Speaker 2: In effect, the necessity of choice was something of a

2199
01:52:20,160 --> 01:52:25,200
Speaker 2: job application, and Kissinger hoped Kennedy would make an offer. So, like, again,

2200
01:52:25,320 --> 01:52:28,400
Speaker 2: so it doesn't really, I mean, it's it's just Marjorie

2201
01:52:28,439 --> 01:52:29,000
Speaker 2: Taylor Green.

2202
01:52:29,240 --> 01:52:31,479
Speaker 3: I mean it is the same shit essentially, And it's like,

2203
01:52:31,920 --> 01:52:35,120
Speaker 3: you know, the sensationalism that gets you the headlines and

2204
01:52:35,240 --> 01:52:37,679
Speaker 3: then once you're fail, it's any it's really any form

2205
01:52:37,760 --> 01:52:41,280
Speaker 3: of our pop culture entertainment. Now, just get your name

2206
01:52:41,360 --> 01:52:43,840
Speaker 3: in the fucking headlines and then define who you are

2207
01:52:44,320 --> 01:52:46,719
Speaker 3: and then you can like figure out what you actually

2208
01:52:46,840 --> 01:52:50,080
Speaker 3: think and actually believe or how you're going to ride

2209
01:52:50,120 --> 01:52:53,560
Speaker 3: that to power. Yeah, just make a bang. It's the

2210
01:52:53,720 --> 01:52:54,120
Speaker 3: it is it.

2211
01:52:54,320 --> 01:52:56,960
Speaker 2: It is like the political equivalent of a comedian like

2212
01:52:57,520 --> 01:52:59,960
Speaker 2: saying a racial slur and then listening to the audience

2213
01:53:00,080 --> 01:53:01,559
Speaker 2: to determine whether or not they're joking.

2214
01:53:02,000 --> 01:53:06,519
Speaker 3: Like that's what he's doing. He's it's yeah, yeah, yeah,

2215
01:53:06,520 --> 01:53:08,360
Speaker 3: I mean show up to a club, take your dick out,

2216
01:53:08,479 --> 01:53:11,760
Speaker 3: and then right your hour. Yeah, it's called it's uh

2217
01:53:12,160 --> 01:53:17,519
Speaker 3: luisyk backwards. It's the it's the Casey. I'm not going

2218
01:53:17,560 --> 01:53:18,160
Speaker 3: to figure out what.

2219
01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:18,559
Speaker 9: The back.

2220
01:53:20,400 --> 01:53:25,599
Speaker 2: Casey Casey Sewell yeh. So this he does not get

2221
01:53:25,640 --> 01:53:27,640
Speaker 2: exactly what he wants, but he gets part of what

2222
01:53:27,760 --> 01:53:31,960
Speaker 2: he wants. His buddy, uh Notlson Rockefeller is able to

2223
01:53:32,000 --> 01:53:34,719
Speaker 2: give him a part time consulting gig for the National

2224
01:53:34,760 --> 01:53:37,840
Speaker 2: Security Advisor. So it's not but it's not everything he wants,

2225
01:53:37,880 --> 01:53:41,640
Speaker 2: but he is now he's he has like he you know,

2226
01:53:41,880 --> 01:53:44,840
Speaker 2: like you start your way in and it's unless you

2227
01:53:45,000 --> 01:53:47,439
Speaker 2: really fuck up. And by fuck up, I mean don't

2228
01:53:47,479 --> 01:53:49,599
Speaker 2: get a lot of people killed. You'll just get closer

2229
01:53:49,640 --> 01:53:52,160
Speaker 2: and closer to power because that's how our system works.

2230
01:53:54,040 --> 01:53:58,360
Speaker 2: So you know, Kissinger is is obviously very conservative. Rockefeller

2231
01:53:58,520 --> 01:54:00,600
Speaker 2: is not. Again, he's part of the Kennedy administration. This

2232
01:54:00,720 --> 01:54:01,799
Speaker 2: is what I don't understand.

2233
01:54:02,360 --> 01:54:03,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I we'll talk.

2234
01:54:03,360 --> 01:54:05,000
Speaker 2: We're actually we're going to talk a shitload about that

2235
01:54:05,080 --> 01:54:07,200
Speaker 2: over the next couple of episodes, because this is like

2236
01:54:07,320 --> 01:54:11,160
Speaker 2: a consistent weird thing about him. But like One of

2237
01:54:11,160 --> 01:54:14,360
Speaker 2: the things Kissinger does is he oils Rockefeller with effusive

2238
01:54:14,439 --> 01:54:17,800
Speaker 2: claims that Kennedy's inaugural speech, which Rockefeller had helped with,

2239
01:54:18,280 --> 01:54:21,800
Speaker 2: was so good he quote might become a registered Democrat, Right,

2240
01:54:21,840 --> 01:54:23,559
Speaker 2: that's the kind of shit. He says that, like, I'm

2241
01:54:23,560 --> 01:54:25,720
Speaker 2: almost a Democrat now because how good JFK.

2242
01:54:25,560 --> 01:54:26,679
Speaker 3: Speech was so good.

2243
01:54:28,920 --> 01:54:32,600
Speaker 2: He doesn't believe in ship like I can't overemphasize that

2244
01:54:32,720 --> 01:54:35,960
Speaker 2: other than that, Henry Kissinger should be very close to power.

2245
01:54:36,280 --> 01:54:39,760
Speaker 2: He believes strongly in that, and he believes in that

2246
01:54:39,960 --> 01:54:41,760
Speaker 2: as much as anyone's ever believed in the Bible.

2247
01:54:41,920 --> 01:54:42,080
Speaker 6: Right.

2248
01:54:43,200 --> 01:54:44,600
Speaker 2: He does not believe in ideas.

2249
01:54:45,920 --> 01:54:51,600
Speaker 3: Birthday to the President. I saw what Maryland did and

2250
01:54:53,240 --> 01:54:59,160
Speaker 3: testament sometimes the president.

2251
01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:05,400
Speaker 2: Would you like to see where they call me Kissinger? Oh,

2252
01:55:05,680 --> 01:55:07,960
Speaker 2: I'm standing over this event and look at what they're

2253
01:55:07,960 --> 01:55:11,840
Speaker 2: doing to my book. See that's the fan art. I

2254
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:15,480
Speaker 2: would have him kiss just like trying to fuck JFK

2255
01:55:15,720 --> 01:55:18,280
Speaker 2: with every bit of charm in his German body.

2256
01:55:18,600 --> 01:55:21,720
Speaker 3: Oh dude, nobody told me Subway go over vent Look

2257
01:55:21,760 --> 01:55:26,080
Speaker 3: at this, You're going to see everything goes nuke.

2258
01:55:30,120 --> 01:55:33,920
Speaker 2: So JFK is eventually assassinated by Bernard Montgomery s and

2259
01:55:34,080 --> 01:55:37,560
Speaker 2: LBJ takes over. Oh yeah, I mean history is a

2260
01:55:38,240 --> 01:55:42,960
Speaker 2: read this banquet. I've got a pamphlet for you myself.

2261
01:55:43,280 --> 01:55:44,040
Speaker 3: That's my length.

2262
01:55:46,640 --> 01:55:50,440
Speaker 2: So LBJ is the president now and and LBJ is

2263
01:55:50,520 --> 01:55:52,560
Speaker 2: like between LGMJK. It's like a decade you know that

2264
01:55:52,680 --> 01:55:56,280
Speaker 2: the Democrats are in power, and LBJ is very good

2265
01:55:56,360 --> 01:56:02,280
Speaker 2: at exercising power. Right, And he's also super into Henry Kissinger.

2266
01:56:03,280 --> 01:56:06,560
Speaker 2: He's not against Henry Kissinger either, but Henry kind of

2267
01:56:06,680 --> 01:56:09,959
Speaker 2: is kept in this weird like he's on the margins

2268
01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:13,080
Speaker 2: of power during this period of time, right finally, which

2269
01:56:13,160 --> 01:56:19,000
Speaker 2: is yeah, well not really because while he's there's no breath,

2270
01:56:19,040 --> 01:56:24,000
Speaker 2: there's there's no breath, there's good to hear. While he's

2271
01:56:24,120 --> 01:56:26,520
Speaker 2: kind of on the not you know, on the margins,

2272
01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:29,800
Speaker 2: he's able to build connections with as many Republican lawmakers

2273
01:56:29,800 --> 01:56:31,520
Speaker 2: and their aids as he does with Democrats, right, Like

2274
01:56:31,600 --> 01:56:33,400
Speaker 2: that's what he's doing while he's doing these like part

2275
01:56:33,440 --> 01:56:35,800
Speaker 2: time gigs with the NSC and stuff, is he's he's

2276
01:56:35,880 --> 01:56:39,720
Speaker 2: making friends with everybody he can. There is nobody.

2277
01:56:40,320 --> 01:56:44,120
Speaker 5: He's just networker, like he is just a supreme networker.

2278
01:56:44,240 --> 01:56:45,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, there is so.

2279
01:56:45,960 --> 01:56:48,240
Speaker 2: Much when I was a kid in speech and debate,

2280
01:56:48,360 --> 01:56:50,000
Speaker 2: one of the other kids in the debate team with

2281
01:56:50,080 --> 01:56:52,560
Speaker 2: me was obsessed with Kissinger, like read his books and stuff,

2282
01:56:52,600 --> 01:56:54,600
Speaker 2: thought held and this was this thing that I heard

2283
01:56:54,680 --> 01:56:57,280
Speaker 2: too from like family members and stuff that like, well

2284
01:56:57,320 --> 01:56:58,880
Speaker 2: he was you know, he wasn't always right, but it

2285
01:56:59,000 --> 01:57:01,400
Speaker 2: was he was doing the hardest job anyone's ever had,

2286
01:57:01,440 --> 01:57:03,400
Speaker 2: and he was just this really genius man and you

2287
01:57:03,480 --> 01:57:05,040
Speaker 2: can't really argue with him if you read about what

2288
01:57:05,080 --> 01:57:06,400
Speaker 2: he was saying, and it's like, no, he.

2289
01:57:06,400 --> 01:57:07,840
Speaker 3: Didn't believe in shit he was.

2290
01:57:08,080 --> 01:57:11,240
Speaker 2: He was a genius at making people like him, and

2291
01:57:12,120 --> 01:57:17,320
Speaker 2: that allowed him to horrible things. Yeah, which I guess,

2292
01:57:17,480 --> 01:57:20,680
Speaker 2: like anyone who's really dangerous in politics is that's as

2293
01:57:20,720 --> 01:57:24,320
Speaker 2: a version of that guy, right, Like yeah, like that's

2294
01:57:24,400 --> 01:57:28,600
Speaker 2: that's all of them. But he's he's an interesting kind

2295
01:57:28,840 --> 01:57:31,560
Speaker 2: of that guy and as a result, probably the most

2296
01:57:31,600 --> 01:57:33,480
Speaker 2: toxic kind of that guy we've ever had in the

2297
01:57:33,600 --> 01:57:44,360
Speaker 2: United States. Wow, which is saying something really bad, but yeah, so, yeah,

2298
01:57:44,440 --> 01:57:47,520
Speaker 2: he makes all these connections, he cultivates them, and he

2299
01:57:47,600 --> 01:57:49,200
Speaker 2: keeps his name in the news. Right, That's a big

2300
01:57:49,280 --> 01:57:50,560
Speaker 2: part of why he's able to do what he is.

2301
01:57:50,640 --> 01:57:53,200
Speaker 2: Later he keeps going on TV, keeps being on the radio,

2302
01:57:53,240 --> 01:57:55,600
Speaker 2: He keeps being quoted and like cited and interviewed by

2303
01:57:55,680 --> 01:57:58,160
Speaker 2: journalists for articles. Henry makes it known that, like, if

2304
01:57:58,200 --> 01:58:00,880
Speaker 2: you're a journalist, I'm easy to reach you. Always give

2305
01:58:00,920 --> 01:58:03,280
Speaker 2: you a quote. You can always reach Henry Kissinger for

2306
01:58:03,400 --> 01:58:05,240
Speaker 2: like a line or two on this thing, you know,

2307
01:58:06,960 --> 01:58:10,720
Speaker 2: which is very smart of him. It's very dumb and

2308
01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:14,320
Speaker 2: shameful and uh uh horrible for the journalists.

2309
01:58:14,640 --> 01:58:18,840
Speaker 3: Yeah him, but like, yeah, God that they've learned. God,

2310
01:58:18,920 --> 01:58:20,880
Speaker 3: that doesn't happen anymore now.

2311
01:58:20,960 --> 01:58:23,280
Speaker 2: I turned to the New York Times story published today

2312
01:58:23,320 --> 01:58:26,160
Speaker 2: that described Nazis assaulting a book club as men with

2313
01:58:26,280 --> 01:58:33,680
Speaker 2: a swastika flag. Someone pointed out, well, the article calls

2314
01:58:33,720 --> 01:58:35,840
Speaker 2: them Nazis. It's just all of the social media they

2315
01:58:35,880 --> 01:58:38,960
Speaker 2: described them that way. And I was like, oh, I

2316
01:58:39,000 --> 01:58:41,400
Speaker 2: can't explain to you why I feel worse about that,

2317
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:42,080
Speaker 2: but I do.

2318
01:58:42,520 --> 01:58:44,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was not just that. It was not just

2319
01:58:44,720 --> 01:58:48,560
Speaker 3: the dumb error. It was calculus. Yeah, yeah, moral calculus.

2320
01:58:48,720 --> 01:58:52,480
Speaker 2: It's yeah, moral calculus, right, good, good ship. So the

2321
01:58:52,560 --> 01:58:55,520
Speaker 2: professor cultivates connections, Yeah, he gets good. He also he

2322
01:58:55,560 --> 01:58:57,640
Speaker 2: goes to Vietnam at one point and he makes connections

2323
01:58:57,680 --> 01:58:59,760
Speaker 2: with a bunch of people in Vietnam who were able

2324
01:58:59,800 --> 01:59:02,640
Speaker 2: to to not just the South but the North Vietnamese government.

2325
01:59:02,680 --> 01:59:04,200
Speaker 2: Like that's the thing he consciously does is like I

2326
01:59:04,240 --> 01:59:06,160
Speaker 2: want to be able to like be able to take

2327
01:59:06,200 --> 01:59:08,360
Speaker 2: the temperature of like guys, which is not like I

2328
01:59:08,400 --> 01:59:10,560
Speaker 2: would say, actually, like the most reasonable thing he does.

2329
01:59:10,600 --> 01:59:12,600
Speaker 2: If you think you're going to be in power, Like, yeah,

2330
01:59:12,600 --> 01:59:14,000
Speaker 2: it's good you you probably want to be able to

2331
01:59:14,000 --> 01:59:15,560
Speaker 2: talk to those guys. Even though we're fighting with him.

2332
01:59:15,560 --> 01:59:18,640
Speaker 2: That's not an unreasonable thing. He will use it badly, Right,

2333
01:59:18,760 --> 01:59:21,760
Speaker 2: Who's he's doing that on the part of just himself? Yeah,

2334
01:59:21,840 --> 01:59:23,720
Speaker 2: what well he is working, he has a gig with

2335
01:59:23,800 --> 01:59:26,160
Speaker 2: the guy he's like an advisor to the National Security Council,

2336
01:59:26,320 --> 01:59:29,200
Speaker 2: and he's a known academic. You know, he's probably being like,

2337
01:59:29,280 --> 01:59:31,400
Speaker 2: you know, I'm an academic. I'm trying to understand the

2338
01:59:31,440 --> 01:59:33,960
Speaker 2: dimensions of this and like I want to talk to everybody.

2339
01:59:33,960 --> 01:59:36,200
Speaker 2: I'm a very fair minded man. I don't let ideology

2340
01:59:36,240 --> 01:59:38,880
Speaker 2: get in the way. YadA YadA, YadA. Like one of

2341
01:59:38,920 --> 01:59:41,480
Speaker 2: the things about Henry Kissinger too, like he's as good

2342
01:59:41,760 --> 01:59:44,160
Speaker 2: he can he's he's fucking his buddies with Mao. Like,

2343
01:59:44,240 --> 01:59:46,920
Speaker 2: he's great at talking with people who are communists and stuff.

2344
01:59:47,280 --> 01:59:50,760
Speaker 2: As long as you like Henry Kissinger and what he's selling,

2345
01:59:51,040 --> 01:59:52,200
Speaker 2: he'll sell it to anybody.

2346
01:59:52,440 --> 01:59:57,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so crazy. It's wild that like he might

2347
01:59:57,520 --> 01:59:59,840
Speaker 3: he must have eyes that just start spinning in h

2348
02:00:00,160 --> 02:00:01,960
Speaker 3: Like you just have to get close to notice that

2349
02:00:02,000 --> 02:00:04,160
Speaker 3: he's got hypnotic eyes. You're like, oh, he isn't so

2350
02:00:04,360 --> 02:00:06,160
Speaker 3: bad now that I'm taking him.

2351
02:00:08,000 --> 02:00:10,920
Speaker 2: You know, let's think about Vietnam for a second. Right,

2352
02:00:11,200 --> 02:00:14,360
Speaker 2: if you're going to war in Vietnam, Gareth, Right, if

2353
02:00:14,400 --> 02:00:16,360
Speaker 2: you decide how to go, Gareth Reynolds, I'm going to

2354
02:00:16,400 --> 02:00:18,320
Speaker 2: go to war in Vietnam. How long do you think

2355
02:00:18,320 --> 02:00:19,920
Speaker 2: it would take you to realize that was a bad idea?

2356
02:00:20,120 --> 02:00:23,240
Speaker 3: It would be I mean, I Gareth Reynolds, it would

2357
02:00:23,240 --> 02:00:27,600
Speaker 3: be instantaneous, very quickly, very quickly. I mean it's David. Yeah,

2358
02:00:28,000 --> 02:00:29,040
Speaker 3: can I okay?

2359
02:00:29,080 --> 02:00:30,560
Speaker 4: Can I just can I ask a question?

2360
02:00:30,640 --> 02:00:34,760
Speaker 3: Which side am I fighting on? The not Vietnamese site? Okay?

2361
02:00:34,800 --> 02:00:37,840
Speaker 3: Then really quick? Yeah, really quick. I feel like you could.

2362
02:00:37,880 --> 02:00:39,840
Speaker 3: I feel like you could. You could take Vietnam, David,

2363
02:00:39,960 --> 02:00:42,040
Speaker 3: Dave going to see it the night they're not going

2364
02:00:42,120 --> 02:00:44,240
Speaker 3: to see it coming. I would certainly be the guy

2365
02:00:44,280 --> 02:00:46,440
Speaker 3: who they'd be like, we broke him. We broke him

2366
02:00:46,440 --> 02:00:49,280
Speaker 3: before we even shouted at him. I'm sorry. I didn't

2367
02:00:49,280 --> 02:00:51,400
Speaker 3: mean to show up with pants that were already pissed in.

2368
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:52,240
Speaker 2: I know.

2369
02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:54,160
Speaker 4: I know one thing about me, and that's that if

2370
02:00:54,200 --> 02:00:58,160
Speaker 4: things got really, really chaotic and bad, that I I

2371
02:00:58,400 --> 02:00:59,680
Speaker 4: kind of thrive in that environment.

2372
02:00:59,800 --> 02:01:01,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'd be like, Dave, we don't have time to

2373
02:01:02,000 --> 02:01:04,080
Speaker 3: eat their brains. He'd be like, shut up, I'm figuring

2374
02:01:04,080 --> 02:01:08,000
Speaker 3: out what they know. It's like Doctor Manhattan ending the

2375
02:01:08,120 --> 02:01:08,800
Speaker 3: Vietnam War.

2376
02:01:13,960 --> 02:01:18,440
Speaker 2: Both sides surrendered to Dave in the mid sixties, which

2377
02:01:18,480 --> 02:01:21,200
Speaker 2: is fairly early on considering how late the Vietnam War goes.

2378
02:01:21,480 --> 02:01:23,440
Speaker 2: It is clear to people, especially a lot of people

2379
02:01:23,520 --> 02:01:25,360
Speaker 2: protesting in the United States, they're like, oh shit, this

2380
02:01:25,400 --> 02:01:25,960
Speaker 2: ain't going.

2381
02:01:25,840 --> 02:01:29,200
Speaker 3: Great, right, Like, it's not hard for people.

2382
02:01:29,200 --> 02:01:31,280
Speaker 2: There are people who buy into the US propaganda, but

2383
02:01:31,400 --> 02:01:34,440
Speaker 2: like people who are actually privy to information on the

2384
02:01:34,560 --> 02:01:36,839
Speaker 2: war are aware that it is not going well. Kissinger

2385
02:01:36,920 --> 02:01:39,480
Speaker 2: still decides we should escalate things. And I'm going to

2386
02:01:39,600 --> 02:01:43,040
Speaker 2: quote again from Kissinger's Shadow by Greg Brandon. Upon returning

2387
02:01:43,080 --> 02:01:45,320
Speaker 2: from his first visit to South Vietnam, and late nineteen

2388
02:01:45,360 --> 02:01:48,040
Speaker 2: sixty five, Kissinger threw himself into a campaign to build

2389
02:01:48,080 --> 02:01:51,440
Speaker 2: public support for ongoing intervention. In early December, he joined

2390
02:01:51,480 --> 02:01:53,880
Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty nine other scholars from Harvard, Yale,

2391
02:01:53,960 --> 02:01:56,440
Speaker 2: and fifteen other New England universities in an open letter

2392
02:01:56,560 --> 02:02:00,320
Speaker 2: expressing confidence that Johnson's policies would help quote people South

2393
02:02:00,400 --> 02:02:05,200
Speaker 2: Vietnam determine their own destiny. Vietcom victory will spell disasters,

2394
02:02:05,240 --> 02:02:08,080
Speaker 2: said the letter. Then later that month, he led a

2395
02:02:08,120 --> 02:02:11,560
Speaker 2: Harvard team against a group of Oxford opponents of the war,

2396
02:02:11,640 --> 02:02:14,560
Speaker 2: and a debate held in Great Britain and broadcast nationally

2397
02:02:14,760 --> 02:02:18,360
Speaker 2: in the United States on CBS. Kissinger passionately defended the

2398
02:02:18,360 --> 02:02:20,960
Speaker 2: bombing of northern Vietnam, insisting that it was not a

2399
02:02:21,040 --> 02:02:24,040
Speaker 2: violation of international law. He invoked the analogy of World

2400
02:02:24,080 --> 02:02:26,640
Speaker 2: War Two, saying Washington's actions in Indo China were as

2401
02:02:26,720 --> 02:02:29,880
Speaker 2: righteous and justified as they were in Nazi Germany. Bob Schroum,

2402
02:02:29,960 --> 02:02:32,560
Speaker 2: who went on to become a Democratic political consultant, was

2403
02:02:32,600 --> 02:02:35,040
Speaker 2: on Kissinger's team and says that when he today watches

2404
02:02:35,080 --> 02:02:37,280
Speaker 2: a recording of the of the debate, he is quote

2405
02:02:37,520 --> 02:02:41,120
Speaker 2: amazed by two things. How young we look, even Kissinger,

2406
02:02:41,280 --> 02:02:44,480
Speaker 2: and how wrong we were. So first off, I bought Kissinger,

2407
02:02:44,920 --> 02:02:46,560
Speaker 2: you don't feel bad enough. I don't know how bad

2408
02:02:46,600 --> 02:02:47,240
Speaker 2: you feel about this.

2409
02:02:47,440 --> 02:02:51,440
Speaker 3: It's not enough. Your first reaction be like, god, we

2410
02:02:51,520 --> 02:02:55,640
Speaker 3: were kids, were young, we were young.

2411
02:02:56,240 --> 02:02:58,800
Speaker 2: There's like some Vietnam these dude next to him thinking

2412
02:02:58,800 --> 02:03:01,360
Speaker 2: about like bomb's race down on the jungle and.

2413
02:03:03,120 --> 02:03:07,280
Speaker 3: Cross feedback. We had Kissinger, Oh my god, it's joelous.

2414
02:03:07,800 --> 02:03:10,200
Speaker 3: Heck yeah, he's only got one jowl at that time.

2415
02:03:10,280 --> 02:03:13,080
Speaker 3: That's before he got the eight Our hair looked so stupid?

2416
02:03:13,120 --> 02:03:13,560
Speaker 3: Am I right?

2417
02:03:13,640 --> 02:03:13,840
Speaker 4: Am I?

2418
02:03:13,920 --> 02:03:14,040
Speaker 6: Right?

2419
02:03:14,080 --> 02:03:19,080
Speaker 3: Where did your legs go? By the way, before Henry

2420
02:03:19,160 --> 02:03:21,440
Speaker 3: Kissinger looked like weird science.

2421
02:03:21,520 --> 02:03:27,160
Speaker 2: After things go wrong, it's amazing, like and it's it's

2422
02:03:27,360 --> 02:03:31,160
Speaker 2: there's a lot in that paragraph both like of course,

2423
02:03:31,440 --> 02:03:34,160
Speaker 2: when the debate starts to build, like should we escalate

2424
02:03:34,360 --> 02:03:37,800
Speaker 2: this nightmarish war? The first thing, one of the first

2425
02:03:37,840 --> 02:03:39,880
Speaker 2: things that happens is that a bunch of fucking New

2426
02:03:39,960 --> 02:03:43,160
Speaker 2: England universities decided to have a debate about it. Right, yeah, right,

2427
02:03:43,320 --> 02:03:45,880
Speaker 2: that's the right, Like, let's let everyone here, let's have

2428
02:03:45,960 --> 02:03:47,280
Speaker 2: the best arguments of both.

2429
02:03:47,160 --> 02:03:49,760
Speaker 3: Sides about whether or not behinds.

2430
02:03:50,240 --> 02:03:54,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, first off, fuck everyone involved in this, even

2431
02:03:54,440 --> 02:03:56,560
Speaker 2: the people arguing against the wall a little bit like

2432
02:03:56,880 --> 02:03:58,760
Speaker 2: just don't do that's the premist.

2433
02:03:58,880 --> 02:04:00,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, the premiss it's bad.

2434
02:04:00,880 --> 02:04:04,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Less so certainly, I don't know, I don't know.

2435
02:04:05,040 --> 02:04:08,200
Speaker 3: Maybe like it made sense, there's a virgins debating which

2436
02:04:08,280 --> 02:04:14,400
Speaker 3: position is the best to fucking why is this instead

2437
02:04:14,400 --> 02:04:18,280
Speaker 3: of the debate like hey, why are we there? Like

2438
02:04:18,440 --> 02:04:22,680
Speaker 3: really why? Sorry, that's we're not we're not debating that,

2439
02:04:22,920 --> 02:04:26,360
Speaker 3: we're not asking that. It's not the debate, and it is.

2440
02:04:27,560 --> 02:04:30,560
Speaker 2: Again, it's like and you can see just about how

2441
02:04:30,600 --> 02:04:33,360
Speaker 2: comprehensively wrong these people are that like number one, this

2442
02:04:33,520 --> 02:04:35,560
Speaker 2: idea that this will help the people of South Vietnam

2443
02:04:35,600 --> 02:04:38,520
Speaker 2: determine their own destiny, which is, the South Vietnamese government

2444
02:04:38,640 --> 02:04:40,920
Speaker 2: was a dictatorship the entire time the war was going on.

2445
02:04:41,200 --> 02:04:44,240
Speaker 2: It's not any more democratic in any meaningful sense than

2446
02:04:44,520 --> 02:04:47,520
Speaker 2: than the Northern Vietnam. And also like a Vietcong victory

2447
02:04:47,520 --> 02:04:50,440
Speaker 2: will spell disasters, Like there's plenty of things to criticize

2448
02:04:50,440 --> 02:04:53,320
Speaker 2: the Vietnamese government for, but like broadly on an international level,

2449
02:04:53,400 --> 02:04:56,320
Speaker 2: it's fine. The country seems seems to be doing all right,

2450
02:04:56,480 --> 02:05:00,760
Speaker 2: like better than a lot of places. It's fine. Yeah,

2451
02:05:00,880 --> 02:05:03,960
Speaker 2: did pretty good job at COVID, like you know it did.

2452
02:05:04,080 --> 02:05:06,760
Speaker 2: It didn't seem like a disaster. Maybe if we hadn't

2453
02:05:06,840 --> 02:05:11,480
Speaker 2: killed five million people, things would be even better. It

2454
02:05:11,960 --> 02:05:13,040
Speaker 2: seems like it couldn't hurt.

2455
02:05:13,520 --> 02:05:13,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2456
02:05:15,720 --> 02:05:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Again, they're wrong about everything. Like Kissinger in this period,

2457
02:05:20,080 --> 02:05:23,000
Speaker 2: everything that he said, like that'sz he has, this reputation

2458
02:05:23,160 --> 02:05:26,400
Speaker 2: is such an intellectual titan, and he's like so constantly

2459
02:05:26,480 --> 02:05:27,120
Speaker 2: fucking wrong.

2460
02:05:27,480 --> 02:05:29,920
Speaker 3: But he didn't bring up there's always like yeah.

2461
02:05:30,240 --> 02:05:32,280
Speaker 4: It's the same as today, all of these people that

2462
02:05:32,320 --> 02:05:36,400
Speaker 4: are constantly fucking wrong. Just yeah, keep on getting positions

2463
02:05:36,400 --> 02:05:38,640
Speaker 4: of power and being media and they're always fucking wrong.

2464
02:05:39,200 --> 02:05:41,480
Speaker 2: And there's this shit like people will will bring up

2465
02:05:41,560 --> 02:05:43,640
Speaker 2: like whoa, but there's this nuclear arms treaty he helped make,

2466
02:05:43,680 --> 02:05:45,480
Speaker 2: and there's this like peace deal he negotiated in the

2467
02:05:45,480 --> 02:05:47,160
Speaker 2: Middle East and like all of these things like yeah,

2468
02:05:47,200 --> 02:05:49,640
Speaker 2: but that was like two percent of the shit that

2469
02:05:49,720 --> 02:05:53,200
Speaker 2: he did, and it was largely because other people that

2470
02:05:53,360 --> 02:05:55,960
Speaker 2: he wanted to stay in good with were pushing for

2471
02:05:56,040 --> 02:05:59,040
Speaker 2: that kind of shit too, like Henry Kissinger. Whenever he

2472
02:05:59,200 --> 02:06:03,200
Speaker 2: has expressed an idea that is his legitimate idea is

2473
02:06:03,480 --> 02:06:07,760
Speaker 2: like really really disastrously wrong. Yeah, amazing, Yeah, fuck it,

2474
02:06:07,920 --> 02:06:12,160
Speaker 2: nobody cares, Yeah, nobody cares. He's gotta get to invest

2475
02:06:12,200 --> 02:06:15,320
Speaker 2: in Therano still as opposed to being the one victory,

2476
02:06:15,760 --> 02:06:18,920
Speaker 2: the one victory we want to that's why we should

2477
02:06:19,000 --> 02:06:23,840
Speaker 2: pardon her. Yeah, yeah, look, you stole a lot of money,

2478
02:06:23,920 --> 02:06:25,360
Speaker 2: but you made Henry Kissinger.

2479
02:06:25,920 --> 02:06:28,080
Speaker 3: We're gonna release you to come up with another scheme

2480
02:06:28,200 --> 02:06:31,760
Speaker 3: to take more money from this bag of ship. You

2481
02:06:31,800 --> 02:06:32,320
Speaker 3: don't get to.

2482
02:06:32,320 --> 02:06:34,720
Speaker 2: Make a company anymore, but we're gonna have cameras fall.

2483
02:06:35,720 --> 02:06:39,160
Speaker 2: Think of you, Frank Show. Have you seen punked?

2484
02:06:39,360 --> 02:06:44,320
Speaker 3: You can't. It's just every week for a Kissinger.

2485
02:06:44,720 --> 02:06:47,480
Speaker 2: You're gonna put on mustaches and like fake wigs, and

2486
02:06:47,560 --> 02:06:48,640
Speaker 2: you're just gonna try.

2487
02:06:48,480 --> 02:06:50,640
Speaker 3: To find telling me this is a way for me

2488
02:06:50,760 --> 02:06:56,040
Speaker 3: to get a longer spine. I mean, popcorn has zero calories.

2489
02:06:57,040 --> 02:06:57,480
Speaker 3: I'm here.

2490
02:06:58,760 --> 02:07:01,800
Speaker 4: But you know it's about that story. Is that she's

2491
02:07:02,040 --> 02:07:06,440
Speaker 4: a younger female kissinger. Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. She's

2492
02:07:06,640 --> 02:07:09,600
Speaker 4: like blood kissing. Everyone was super into her, and she

2493
02:07:09,760 --> 02:07:11,600
Speaker 4: was just saying whatever people wanted to hear, and like.

2494
02:07:12,000 --> 02:07:15,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, it's amazing because there's there's the good grifters

2495
02:07:16,000 --> 02:07:17,800
Speaker 2: and the evil ones. We just finished our four parterre

2496
02:07:17,840 --> 02:07:19,560
Speaker 2: on the Tzar and talked about the fact that, like

2497
02:07:19,680 --> 02:07:23,280
Speaker 2: before Respute and there was another spiritualist grifter who pretended

2498
02:07:23,320 --> 02:07:26,160
Speaker 2: to talk to like ghosts and stuff named Philippe, who

2499
02:07:26,320 --> 02:07:28,560
Speaker 2: like got a bunch of money for them, tricked the

2500
02:07:28,600 --> 02:07:31,240
Speaker 2: Tsarina into thinking she was pregnant, and then bounced with

2501
02:07:31,280 --> 02:07:33,240
Speaker 2: a bunch of their money. And the last thing he

2502
02:07:33,360 --> 02:07:36,760
Speaker 2: did before he left was like, I'm gonna come back

2503
02:07:36,800 --> 02:07:40,000
Speaker 2: in another form as another spiritual he should trust whatever

2504
02:07:40,080 --> 02:07:40,480
Speaker 2: I said.

2505
02:07:40,960 --> 02:07:41,600
Speaker 3: Very funny.

2506
02:07:42,200 --> 02:07:44,680
Speaker 2: Took all the money and ran, and when he died,

2507
02:07:44,720 --> 02:07:46,360
Speaker 2: it was found out that he had been paying for

2508
02:07:46,520 --> 02:07:49,520
Speaker 2: the mortgages and rentals of like fifty two impoverished families.

2509
02:07:49,920 --> 02:07:54,200
Speaker 2: Like the perfect guy, like the opposite of Kissing. Yeah yeah,

2510
02:07:55,760 --> 02:07:58,600
Speaker 2: just taking money from the tsar to help pour people out.

2511
02:07:58,640 --> 02:07:59,160
Speaker 3: What a dude.

2512
02:08:00,120 --> 02:08:04,440
Speaker 2: Great if he showed up again, Yeah yeah, let's put

2513
02:08:04,440 --> 02:08:06,960
Speaker 2: that guy in front of Kissinger, see what he can do.

2514
02:08:09,280 --> 02:08:12,840
Speaker 2: So in private, Kissinger admitted already, while he is doing

2515
02:08:12,880 --> 02:08:14,720
Speaker 2: all this, while he's a part of this big debate,

2516
02:08:14,800 --> 02:08:16,240
Speaker 2: you know, while he's taking the side that we should

2517
02:08:16,320 --> 02:08:19,160
Speaker 2: escalate in private. In his conversations, he admits to his

2518
02:08:19,240 --> 02:08:21,800
Speaker 2: friends that Vietnam is an unwinnable disaster of a war.

2519
02:08:22,560 --> 02:08:25,760
Speaker 3: Oh my fucking god. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2520
02:08:26,240 --> 02:08:29,160
Speaker 2: He defended it in public though, because there was at

2521
02:08:29,240 --> 02:08:31,480
Speaker 2: least a fifty percent chance the Democrats were going to

2522
02:08:31,520 --> 02:08:33,880
Speaker 2: stay in power after the next election. That is, he

2523
02:08:34,160 --> 02:08:35,520
Speaker 2: he didn't want to give up on the chance of

2524
02:08:35,560 --> 02:08:36,040
Speaker 2: having a job.

2525
02:08:36,440 --> 02:08:38,120
Speaker 3: You know, I think a lot of times you just

2526
02:08:38,280 --> 02:08:40,680
Speaker 3: you do. I guess he's a little different because he's

2527
02:08:40,720 --> 02:08:43,720
Speaker 3: such a shape shifter. Yeah, you know, there, I think,

2528
02:08:43,760 --> 02:08:45,920
Speaker 3: And it's just the way we are. You are, like,

2529
02:08:46,040 --> 02:08:50,360
Speaker 3: they can't just be that base evil. Yeah, he sure can.

2530
02:08:50,720 --> 02:08:53,400
Speaker 3: He yeah, m hmm.

2531
02:08:53,520 --> 02:08:53,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2532
02:08:54,000 --> 02:08:54,440
Speaker 5: It's something.

2533
02:08:54,640 --> 02:08:56,520
Speaker 4: It's something I was thinking about with climate change, is

2534
02:08:56,560 --> 02:08:59,640
Speaker 4: that people can't wraps around the fact that there might

2535
02:08:59,720 --> 02:09:03,320
Speaker 4: be a significant portion of rich people in control who

2536
02:09:03,440 --> 02:09:05,200
Speaker 4: actually want everybody to die.

2537
02:09:05,480 --> 02:09:09,480
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, or at least don't care, because what really

2538
02:09:09,520 --> 02:09:12,480
Speaker 2: matters is like maintaining their level of relative power to

2539
02:09:12,560 --> 02:09:13,080
Speaker 2: everyone else.

2540
02:09:14,760 --> 02:09:16,360
Speaker 3: What are they going to do? Call themselves out?

2541
02:09:16,920 --> 02:09:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's cool. So obviously it's one of those things.

2542
02:09:21,040 --> 02:09:23,080
Speaker 2: I don't actually know that he really believed that Vietnam

2543
02:09:23,160 --> 02:09:24,560
Speaker 2: was a disaster because he may have been lying to

2544
02:09:24,640 --> 02:09:26,080
Speaker 2: his friends when he said that because he wants to

2545
02:09:26,200 --> 02:09:27,640
Speaker 2: keep like he wants to keep a bridge to the

2546
02:09:27,680 --> 02:09:29,800
Speaker 2: other side open, you know, like it's impossible to say

2547
02:09:29,920 --> 02:09:31,360
Speaker 2: because he's fucking Henry Kissinger.

2548
02:09:31,480 --> 02:09:35,680
Speaker 3: Is it possible there's two Kissingers? Yes, Okay, what if

2549
02:09:35,720 --> 02:09:40,480
Speaker 3: there's six? Am they ever touched Cambodia will be oh, yeah,

2550
02:09:40,520 --> 02:09:42,160
Speaker 3: you know what. Yeah.

2551
02:09:43,800 --> 02:09:47,200
Speaker 2: So the fact that Kissinger in private be like, yeah, Vietnam,

2552
02:09:47,280 --> 02:09:48,960
Speaker 2: what a fuck up, and in public would be like,

2553
02:09:49,120 --> 02:09:53,000
Speaker 2: let me bing Shapiro about Vietnam tea win. This that

2554
02:09:53,240 --> 02:09:55,520
Speaker 2: really pissed off a lot of his friends, including the

2555
02:09:55,560 --> 02:09:59,640
Speaker 2: political scientist Hans Morgenthau. Kissinger had admitted to Morgan Thou

2556
02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:02,440
Speaker 2: that the or was unwinnable, unwinnable, even while he continued

2557
02:10:02,440 --> 02:10:06,160
Speaker 2: to go on in the media and advocate expanded saturation bombing.

2558
02:10:06,560 --> 02:10:10,240
Speaker 2: Morgan Thou found this deeply disappointing, but Henry was increasingly

2559
02:10:10,360 --> 02:10:12,600
Speaker 2: tailoring his public statements to the ear of a man

2560
02:10:12,640 --> 02:10:17,520
Speaker 2: who was already a fan of his work, Richard Millhouse Nixon.

2561
02:10:17,800 --> 02:10:22,640
Speaker 2: Can we get like, yeah, some sound effects, A lightning

2562
02:10:23,040 --> 02:10:25,320
Speaker 2: whips across the stream and a screen.

2563
02:10:25,080 --> 02:10:26,000
Speaker 10: A wolf House.

2564
02:10:26,400 --> 02:10:27,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, incomes the.

2565
02:10:30,040 --> 02:10:32,360
Speaker 2: Which we will do a whole Nixon episode one of

2566
02:10:32,400 --> 02:10:35,640
Speaker 2: these days. A lot of our Kissinger's series will also

2567
02:10:35,720 --> 02:10:38,720
Speaker 2: be about Nixon, because you can't unwrap the two men, you.

2568
02:10:38,760 --> 02:10:39,680
Speaker 12: Know, you can't.

2569
02:10:40,080 --> 02:10:42,920
Speaker 2: So there are two Kissingers. Yeah, one of them is

2570
02:10:43,040 --> 02:10:47,520
Speaker 2: Richard Nixon. So by the end of nineteen sixty eight,

2571
02:10:47,600 --> 02:10:50,480
Speaker 2: as the presidential race between Vice President Hubert Humphrey and

2572
02:10:50,560 --> 02:10:53,960
Speaker 2: former Vice President Richard Nixon heats up, Kissinger's profile had

2573
02:10:54,040 --> 02:10:56,000
Speaker 2: raised enough that he was seen as the front runner

2574
02:10:56,080 --> 02:10:59,320
Speaker 2: for a serious foreign policy job in either potential administration.

2575
02:11:00,080 --> 02:11:02,760
Speaker 3: Time went on either Yeah, he's got a gig, no

2576
02:11:02,880 --> 02:11:07,200
Speaker 3: matter what, Baby, It's just he's the raytheon of people.

2577
02:11:12,480 --> 02:11:16,240
Speaker 2: So as time goes on, though, he increasingly leans towards Nixon,

2578
02:11:16,240 --> 02:11:19,480
Speaker 2: which surprises his friends, whom he had told, quote, Richard

2579
02:11:19,560 --> 02:11:21,920
Speaker 2: Nixon is the most dangerous of all the men running

2580
02:11:21,960 --> 02:11:22,839
Speaker 2: to have his president.

2581
02:11:23,920 --> 02:11:26,040
Speaker 3: But I want him to give me a gig. Yeah,

2582
02:11:29,040 --> 02:11:29,760
Speaker 3: I need job.

2583
02:11:33,600 --> 02:11:36,720
Speaker 2: So he was heartbroken when his friend Rockefeller lost to Nixon,

2584
02:11:37,080 --> 02:11:40,240
Speaker 2: and he commented, now the Republican Party is a disaster

2585
02:11:40,440 --> 02:11:42,400
Speaker 2: and Nixon is not fit to be president.

2586
02:11:42,840 --> 02:11:48,400
Speaker 4: Oh my god, and over and oh this was they

2587
02:11:48,400 --> 02:11:50,320
Speaker 4: said about regular about Bush.

2588
02:11:52,040 --> 02:11:55,720
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, it's always the same calculus. This is true.

2589
02:11:55,840 --> 02:11:58,640
Speaker 2: But Kissinger didn't let his complete contempt for Nixon stop

2590
02:11:58,720 --> 02:12:00,280
Speaker 2: him from trying to get a job with the man.

2591
02:12:00,640 --> 02:12:04,040
Speaker 2: To explain why, here's the New Yorker. It took Kissinger's

2592
02:12:04,040 --> 02:12:07,400
Speaker 2: close contemporary, the political theorist Sheldon Wolan, another son of

2593
02:12:07,480 --> 02:12:09,600
Speaker 2: Jewish immigras, who fought in the War and studied at

2594
02:12:09,640 --> 02:12:13,240
Speaker 2: Harvard with William Yandel Elliott, to fully dissect Kissinger's careerist

2595
02:12:13,280 --> 02:12:16,520
Speaker 2: and sincts. On the surface, Wollant observed, Kissinger would have

2596
02:12:16,560 --> 02:12:19,480
Speaker 2: appeared a mismatch for the anti elitist Nixon, but the

2597
02:12:19,560 --> 02:12:22,600
Speaker 2: pairing was perfect. Nixon needed someone who could elevate his

2598
02:12:22,680 --> 02:12:25,400
Speaker 2: opportunism to a higher plane of purpose and make him

2599
02:12:25,400 --> 02:12:27,880
Speaker 2: feel like a great figure in the drama of history.

2600
02:12:28,240 --> 02:12:30,920
Speaker 2: As Wolan wrote, what could have been more comforting to

2601
02:12:31,000 --> 02:12:34,240
Speaker 2: that barren and inarticulate soul than to hear the authoritative

2602
02:12:34,280 --> 02:12:37,440
Speaker 2: voice of doctor Kissinger, who spoke so often and knowingly

2603
02:12:37,520 --> 02:12:38,880
Speaker 2: about the meaning of history.

2604
02:12:39,240 --> 02:12:45,800
Speaker 3: Ugh, I mean, it's just an empty sack and an

2605
02:12:45,920 --> 02:12:49,920
Speaker 3: evil sack, and the evil sacks like I can feel you. Yeah, well,

2606
02:12:52,960 --> 02:12:58,400
Speaker 3: somebody's gonna off. Somebody's gonna load me with something. He's

2607
02:12:58,440 --> 02:13:01,720
Speaker 3: not gonna do it. Put all that black pile down astonomy, thank.

2608
02:13:01,560 --> 02:13:06,640
Speaker 2: You, Oh boy, Gareth, he doesn't call him Hank, but

2609
02:13:06,680 --> 02:13:07,600
Speaker 2: we'll get to that later.

2610
02:13:09,440 --> 02:13:18,440
Speaker 3: How come on this panky. It's a lot worse than that, Garethright, So, in.

2611
02:13:18,560 --> 02:13:21,800
Speaker 2: Nineteen sixty eight, the Johnson administration was carrying out an

2612
02:13:21,840 --> 02:13:25,040
Speaker 2: extensive series of negotiations between South and North Vietnam and

2613
02:13:25,080 --> 02:13:28,240
Speaker 2: an attempt to secure an end to the war. LBJ

2614
02:13:28,920 --> 02:13:30,720
Speaker 2: wants credit for his legacy, right, I'm not going to

2615
02:13:30,720 --> 02:13:33,600
Speaker 2: give LBJ credit for like caring about human death and suffering,

2616
02:13:33,640 --> 02:13:35,720
Speaker 2: because he's also a monster.

2617
02:13:35,960 --> 02:13:36,080
Speaker 9: Yea.

2618
02:13:36,400 --> 02:13:39,040
Speaker 2: No, not trying to make him seem good by comparison,

2619
02:13:39,320 --> 02:13:41,120
Speaker 2: But he sees ending the war both as a way

2620
02:13:41,160 --> 02:13:42,840
Speaker 2: Tolke I want to go out on a good note.

2621
02:13:42,880 --> 02:13:44,760
Speaker 2: And also this is going to if he could, if

2622
02:13:44,760 --> 02:13:47,560
Speaker 2: he could even secure a significant like ceasefire, that would

2623
02:13:47,600 --> 02:13:50,720
Speaker 2: help Humphrey get reelected. Right, because nobody's in the US

2624
02:13:50,840 --> 02:13:53,920
Speaker 2: is very pro the Vietnam War, within the majority of

2625
02:13:54,000 --> 02:13:56,480
Speaker 2: most voters are very anti its. So that's kind of

2626
02:13:56,520 --> 02:13:59,000
Speaker 2: the play that that lbj's making he wants to end

2627
02:13:59,040 --> 02:14:01,760
Speaker 2: the war in order to help Humphrey win. Over the

2628
02:14:01,840 --> 02:14:04,600
Speaker 2: course of the election year, his Secretary of State, National

2629
02:14:04,680 --> 02:14:08,480
Speaker 2: Security Adviser, and his Secretary of Defense, Clark Gifford, became

2630
02:14:08,560 --> 02:14:11,120
Speaker 2: aware that something was a miss. Some of the moves

2631
02:14:11,320 --> 02:14:15,160
Speaker 2: that the South Vietnamese government made which threatened the negotiation

2632
02:14:15,280 --> 02:14:17,560
Speaker 2: seemed bizarre. They would like take these wild changes where

2633
02:14:17,560 --> 02:14:20,000
Speaker 2: it's like, suddenly South Vietnam's not willing to negotiate, Like

2634
02:14:20,080 --> 02:14:21,800
Speaker 2: what the fuck? We had worked all this out. Why

2635
02:14:21,800 --> 02:14:23,880
Speaker 2: are you guys pulling out at the last minute? North Vietnam,

2636
02:14:24,080 --> 02:14:26,560
Speaker 2: Noam's willing to come to the table. In the trial

2637
02:14:26,640 --> 02:14:30,160
Speaker 2: of Henry Kissinger, Christopher Hitchin's rights quote from his seat

2638
02:14:30,160 --> 02:14:32,839
Speaker 2: in the Pentagon, Clifford, who's again the Secretary of Defense,

2639
02:14:33,080 --> 02:14:35,600
Speaker 2: had actually been able to read the intelligence transcripts that

2640
02:14:35,640 --> 02:14:38,280
Speaker 2: picked up and recorded what he terms a secret personal

2641
02:14:38,440 --> 02:14:42,440
Speaker 2: channel between President thw and Saigon. In the Nixon campaign,

2642
02:14:42,800 --> 02:14:45,760
Speaker 2: the chief interlocutor at the American end was John Mitchell,

2643
02:14:45,960 --> 02:14:49,680
Speaker 2: then Nixon's campaign manager and subsequently Attorney General. He was

2644
02:14:49,760 --> 02:14:53,160
Speaker 2: actively assisted by Madame Anna Chanal, known to all as

2645
02:14:53,240 --> 02:14:56,080
Speaker 2: the Dragon Lady, a fierce veteran of the Taiwan Lobby

2646
02:14:56,160 --> 02:14:58,800
Speaker 2: and all purpose right wing intriguer. She was a social

2647
02:14:58,840 --> 02:15:00,880
Speaker 2: and political force in the war Washington of her day.

2648
02:15:01,600 --> 02:15:06,400
Speaker 2: So lbj's administration, this is suspicious as fuck. Let's bug

2649
02:15:06,480 --> 02:15:10,800
Speaker 2: the Nixon campaign, right, which is not illegal obviously, Like you,

2650
02:15:11,240 --> 02:15:13,480
Speaker 2: it is an act of fucking treason to try and

2651
02:15:13,560 --> 02:15:16,520
Speaker 2: extend a war by sabotage negotiations. This is one of

2652
02:15:16,560 --> 02:15:18,480
Speaker 2: the very few cases where like, yeah, you should wire

2653
02:15:18,520 --> 02:15:19,800
Speaker 2: tap those people, you should.

2654
02:15:20,000 --> 02:15:21,720
Speaker 3: You should tap the fuck out of those phones.

2655
02:15:22,680 --> 02:15:24,240
Speaker 2: But it's also this is they don't want this to

2656
02:15:24,280 --> 02:15:26,280
Speaker 2: get LBJ doesn't want this shit to get out at all.

2657
02:15:27,040 --> 02:15:30,160
Speaker 2: This would be number one a hanging crime. You get

2658
02:15:30,400 --> 02:15:33,120
Speaker 2: executed for doing this kind of shit, like on paper

2659
02:15:33,240 --> 02:15:36,920
Speaker 2: at least, right, And so lbj's administration, while they're wired

2660
02:15:36,960 --> 02:15:39,800
Speaker 2: tapping Nixon and getting evidence about like this, what increasingly

2661
02:15:39,800 --> 02:15:43,120
Speaker 2: becomes clear as a conspiracy, keeps fucking quiet about it

2662
02:15:43,360 --> 02:15:46,440
Speaker 2: because they're worried that revealing this would create a crisis

2663
02:15:46,480 --> 02:15:48,240
Speaker 2: of confidence in the American government.

2664
02:15:48,600 --> 02:15:53,400
Speaker 5: My fucking fucking liberals, the fucking liberals.

2665
02:15:54,160 --> 02:15:58,440
Speaker 4: This is how many times, how many fucking times bustool

2666
02:15:58,480 --> 02:15:59,920
Speaker 4: two elections this is what they did.

2667
02:16:00,600 --> 02:16:06,120
Speaker 3: This is what they fucking did. It's really it really is.

2668
02:16:07,840 --> 02:16:10,600
Speaker 3: I mean yeah, it's just it's I mean the I

2669
02:16:10,960 --> 02:16:15,720
Speaker 3: that is so fucking crazy to put the clubhouse, Yeah,

2670
02:16:16,440 --> 02:16:18,320
Speaker 3: I mean above it. It is. It is like the

2671
02:16:18,480 --> 02:16:22,440
Speaker 3: one time where for president had had his political opponents hanged. Yeah,

2672
02:16:22,440 --> 02:16:24,280
Speaker 3: he'd be like, yeah, that's what you should have done,

2673
02:16:24,440 --> 02:16:28,880
Speaker 3: and you'd have to that one session of hangings really

2674
02:16:28,920 --> 02:16:30,600
Speaker 3: would have gone a long way with this country.

2675
02:16:30,640 --> 02:16:32,840
Speaker 2: You would be in so much a better position. They'd

2676
02:16:32,879 --> 02:16:35,840
Speaker 2: hung Nixon and several other people were about to talk about.

2677
02:16:35,920 --> 02:16:39,920
Speaker 3: And would also given Nixon good posture. Finally, yeah, finally I.

2678
02:16:40,000 --> 02:16:43,400
Speaker 4: Knew about that Nixon had done. I did not know

2679
02:16:43,520 --> 02:16:46,279
Speaker 4: that the that they knew. I didn't know they knew.

2680
02:16:46,280 --> 02:16:50,320
Speaker 3: At the time, like that, Oh yes, David fucking scene

2681
02:16:51,360 --> 02:16:52,480
Speaker 3: the liberal mind.

2682
02:16:52,600 --> 02:16:56,119
Speaker 4: I always think about this story about when the HUNTA

2683
02:16:56,240 --> 02:17:00,680
Speaker 4: took over in Chile before Pinochet got into power, and

2684
02:17:00,800 --> 02:17:03,640
Speaker 4: they asked all the they said, we want to have

2685
02:17:03,800 --> 02:17:06,920
Speaker 4: interviews with people, and the liberals so believed the government

2686
02:17:07,000 --> 02:17:09,400
Speaker 4: that they went and lined up for the secret police

2687
02:17:09,480 --> 02:17:12,960
Speaker 4: interviews because they're like, well, this is what we do.

2688
02:17:13,800 --> 02:17:16,120
Speaker 4: And they're like, no, they're taking your names down to

2689
02:17:16,200 --> 02:17:19,560
Speaker 4: possibly kill you. But they lined up because they're like, well,

2690
02:17:19,640 --> 02:17:21,920
Speaker 4: this is we don't want to mess up the system,

2691
02:17:22,160 --> 02:17:25,680
Speaker 4: like we're supposed to go to get interviewed by the government. Yeah,

2692
02:17:25,720 --> 02:17:29,360
Speaker 4: they're like it's a hunta like it just the mindset

2693
02:17:29,520 --> 02:17:33,320
Speaker 4: of just this is how our constitution works, and this

2694
02:17:33,400 --> 02:17:34,960
Speaker 4: is what we're supposed to do. And you're like, no,

2695
02:17:35,080 --> 02:17:39,720
Speaker 4: it's literally not working. The thing isn't working. This is

2696
02:17:39,760 --> 02:17:41,720
Speaker 4: a great This is one of the best examples ever.

2697
02:17:41,680 --> 02:17:44,400
Speaker 2: Of yeah, like yeah, and this is the germ of

2698
02:17:44,520 --> 02:17:48,320
Speaker 2: truth in Kissinger's whole ideology about conflict is that if

2699
02:17:48,400 --> 02:17:50,760
Speaker 2: you are in a conflict with someone who is willing

2700
02:17:50,840 --> 02:17:53,400
Speaker 2: to throw down and you weren't, they're going to win, right,

2701
02:17:53,720 --> 02:17:55,280
Speaker 2: Like that is a truth of history, right, It's a

2702
02:17:55,320 --> 02:17:58,480
Speaker 2: truth of fighting fascists. Right. It's not enough to say,

2703
02:17:58,560 --> 02:18:00,600
Speaker 2: like punching them isn't the entire of it. But if

2704
02:18:00,640 --> 02:18:02,640
Speaker 2: you're not willing to throw down, they will win, right.

2705
02:18:04,040 --> 02:18:06,120
Speaker 2: And that is a thing that has often taken exactly

2706
02:18:06,200 --> 02:18:08,800
Speaker 2: the wrong way at the geopolitical level. But like you

2707
02:18:08,959 --> 02:18:12,480
Speaker 2: see in this that like LBJ was not willing to

2708
02:18:12,600 --> 02:18:16,040
Speaker 2: throw down and Nixon was, and everything we're going to

2709
02:18:16,080 --> 02:18:17,840
Speaker 2: talk about in the rest of this series happens as

2710
02:18:17,879 --> 02:18:22,640
Speaker 2: a result. And it's like LBJ loved throwing down, but yes,

2711
02:18:23,280 --> 02:18:26,000
Speaker 2: it's amazing that he doesn't in this I think that's.

2712
02:18:25,879 --> 02:18:28,600
Speaker 4: The craziest thing is that, like that was the fucking

2713
02:18:28,640 --> 02:18:30,200
Speaker 4: big dick. I'm gonna take a shit and you're gonna

2714
02:18:30,240 --> 02:18:32,800
Speaker 4: listen to me guy, Like he gave no fox and

2715
02:18:32,879 --> 02:18:33,959
Speaker 4: threw down with everybody.

2716
02:18:34,240 --> 02:18:35,760
Speaker 3: You know what I think it is, Dave.

2717
02:18:36,440 --> 02:18:38,840
Speaker 2: I think for all of his many many mini flaws

2718
02:18:38,879 --> 02:18:42,400
Speaker 2: and evil acts committed, I think LBJ believed in things yeah,

2719
02:18:42,560 --> 02:18:44,119
Speaker 2: and Nixon and kissing you downk.

2720
02:18:44,160 --> 02:18:51,680
Speaker 3: He wouldn't throw down, but he would throw to ads. Yeah,

2721
02:18:51,680 --> 02:18:51,960
Speaker 3: I would.

2722
02:18:52,040 --> 02:18:54,720
Speaker 2: Because you know, LBJ was famous for whipping his dick,

2723
02:18:54,760 --> 02:18:57,000
Speaker 2: which he called jumbo, out at all times. He wants

2724
02:18:57,040 --> 02:18:59,440
Speaker 2: pissed on a Secret Service agent at a party because

2725
02:18:59,440 --> 02:19:01,640
Speaker 2: he couldn't get to the bathroom easily enough.

2726
02:19:02,680 --> 02:19:03,800
Speaker 3: Like that's the secret.

2727
02:19:04,280 --> 02:19:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, all of our sponsors are the same, and that

2728
02:19:07,840 --> 02:19:10,120
Speaker 2: their dicks are called jumbo and they do piss on

2729
02:19:10,160 --> 02:19:13,040
Speaker 2: the Secret Service. Every one of our sponsors pisses on

2730
02:19:13,240 --> 02:19:14,840
Speaker 2: the Secret Service. That's a promise.

2731
02:19:15,440 --> 02:19:25,080
Speaker 3: So we're back. Oh, boy, good times.

2732
02:19:26,560 --> 02:19:29,400
Speaker 2: So South Vietnam pulls out of the negotiations, right, I

2733
02:19:29,440 --> 02:19:32,280
Speaker 2: think they're happening in Paris, and I'm being I haven't

2734
02:19:32,280 --> 02:19:34,000
Speaker 2: really gotten to detail about what happened up to this

2735
02:19:34,080 --> 02:19:36,560
Speaker 2: point because those details are very obscure to the American people.

2736
02:19:36,600 --> 02:19:40,119
Speaker 2: What is publicly possible, like known, is that noth Vietnam

2737
02:19:40,160 --> 02:19:41,680
Speaker 2: and South Vietnam are supposed to come to the table

2738
02:19:41,720 --> 02:19:43,480
Speaker 2: have this big negotiation to try to come to like

2739
02:19:43,600 --> 02:19:46,280
Speaker 2: some way in which the war can come to an end,

2740
02:19:46,800 --> 02:19:49,760
Speaker 2: and South Vietnam, after a bunch of like throwing a

2741
02:19:49,800 --> 02:19:52,720
Speaker 2: bunch of like wrenches in the process, finally just backs

2742
02:19:52,760 --> 02:19:55,440
Speaker 2: out entirely, right, and so the negotiations don't happen, and

2743
02:19:55,480 --> 02:19:58,240
Speaker 2: the war continues. That's what everybody sees, you know, if

2744
02:19:58,280 --> 02:20:00,440
Speaker 2: you're just like a dude paying attention on the news,

2745
02:20:00,480 --> 02:20:04,360
Speaker 2: that's what you're aware of happening here. Lbj's administration knows

2746
02:20:04,400 --> 02:20:06,320
Speaker 2: something sketchy is going on between Nixon and the South

2747
02:20:06,400 --> 02:20:08,640
Speaker 2: Vietnamese government, but even for them, they don't know precisely

2748
02:20:08,720 --> 02:20:12,160
Speaker 2: what happened. Here's what happened. As part of the negotiations,

2749
02:20:12,360 --> 02:20:15,600
Speaker 2: LBJ offered the North Vietnamese a bombing halt. Now you

2750
02:20:15,600 --> 02:20:18,080
Speaker 2: can see why this is very enticing for Hanoi, right,

2751
02:20:18,160 --> 02:20:20,360
Speaker 2: because being bombed is not pleasant, and the US was

2752
02:20:20,400 --> 02:20:22,800
Speaker 2: doing a lot of it. So this is like what

2753
02:20:23,000 --> 02:20:26,040
Speaker 2: Lbj's like, Hey, I will fucking stop bombing Vietnam if

2754
02:20:26,040 --> 02:20:27,680
Speaker 2: you guys will come to the table and talk about

2755
02:20:27,680 --> 02:20:30,800
Speaker 2: stuff and the North Vietnamese government not being made entirely

2756
02:20:30,879 --> 02:20:33,520
Speaker 2: of soulis cockroaches is like, well, okay, Like that's a

2757
02:20:33,560 --> 02:20:34,280
Speaker 2: pretty good offer.

2758
02:20:34,400 --> 02:20:36,640
Speaker 5: Actually, yeah, we were bombings.

2759
02:20:36,680 --> 02:20:38,720
Speaker 3: Are we actually dropped John McCain.

2760
02:20:39,200 --> 02:20:41,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did drop John McCain. You guys might have

2761
02:20:41,840 --> 02:20:44,840
Speaker 2: caught him. Can keep him for a while. He'll come

2762
02:20:44,879 --> 02:20:49,720
Speaker 2: back into the picture. It'll be a big problem. He'll also,

2763
02:20:49,800 --> 02:20:53,080
Speaker 2: weirdly enough, be the least objectionable Republican elected leader for

2764
02:20:53,160 --> 02:20:53,760
Speaker 2: a long time.

2765
02:20:54,120 --> 02:20:58,480
Speaker 3: So it's just you guys know, that's our future hero.

2766
02:20:59,320 --> 02:21:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Jesse the Body Ventura will be the only

2767
02:21:02,680 --> 02:21:04,520
Speaker 2: conservative voices against torture.

2768
02:21:04,760 --> 02:21:06,000
Speaker 3: So heads up.

2769
02:21:09,160 --> 02:21:12,080
Speaker 2: It is amazing watching that old clip of Jesse Ventura

2770
02:21:12,200 --> 02:21:15,600
Speaker 2: on the view being the most reasonable American in fucking

2771
02:21:15,680 --> 02:21:19,480
Speaker 2: early two thousands next to Gilbert Godfried. At least.

2772
02:21:21,040 --> 02:21:22,640
Speaker 3: It's actually not the Gilbert.

2773
02:21:27,160 --> 02:21:30,160
Speaker 2: So Yeah, this is very enticing offer for Hanoi, the

2774
02:21:30,200 --> 02:21:32,320
Speaker 2: bombing cessation, and it's good enough if like, if you

2775
02:21:32,320 --> 02:21:34,760
Speaker 2: won't bomb us anymore, Yeah, maybe we can concede on

2776
02:21:34,879 --> 02:21:37,280
Speaker 2: some stuff if you're not murdering people in mass like, Yeah,

2777
02:21:37,360 --> 02:21:38,720
Speaker 2: of course we'll negotiate with that.

2778
02:21:38,760 --> 02:21:39,360
Speaker 3: That's pretty good.

2779
02:21:39,879 --> 02:21:42,480
Speaker 2: Nixon cannot let this happen. This would be a disaster.

2780
02:21:43,320 --> 02:21:45,840
Speaker 2: Vietnam not getting bombed, he sees is like the worst

2781
02:21:45,920 --> 02:21:48,720
Speaker 2: case scenario, even though he is campaigning on ending the war.

2782
02:21:48,840 --> 02:21:51,680
Speaker 2: By the way, that's promise, I'm gonna get us out

2783
02:21:51,680 --> 02:21:53,800
Speaker 2: of that. But yeah, on my watch, it happens before

2784
02:21:53,840 --> 02:21:56,360
Speaker 2: what am I campaigning on. So Nixon uses his back

2785
02:21:56,440 --> 02:21:58,720
Speaker 2: channel to the South Vietnamese government to get them to torpedo.

2786
02:21:58,760 --> 02:22:00,959
Speaker 2: They're end of the negotiations because the government of South

2787
02:22:01,040 --> 02:22:03,480
Speaker 2: Vietnam is frightened obviously that the US is going to

2788
02:22:03,480 --> 02:22:07,160
Speaker 2: stop bombing North Vietnam. So if you're following along, something

2789
02:22:07,160 --> 02:22:09,880
Speaker 2: should be obvious at this point. Since the Johnson administration

2790
02:22:10,040 --> 02:22:13,360
Speaker 2: was negotiating secretly with North Vietnam, there should have been

2791
02:22:13,400 --> 02:22:15,520
Speaker 2: no way for the government in Saigon to know that

2792
02:22:15,720 --> 02:22:19,120
Speaker 2: LBJ had proposed a bombing halt. But obviously Sigon knew,

2793
02:22:19,320 --> 02:22:21,800
Speaker 2: which means there was a secret informant within the Johnson

2794
02:22:21,840 --> 02:22:25,600
Speaker 2: administration passing information to the Nixon administration and sharing a

2795
02:22:25,640 --> 02:22:28,520
Speaker 2: lot of top secret data with Saigon. So the big

2796
02:22:28,640 --> 02:22:33,120
Speaker 2: question is who possibly be so deep into both camps

2797
02:22:33,440 --> 02:22:36,840
Speaker 2: that he could feed information from one to the forest.

2798
02:22:40,280 --> 02:22:45,800
Speaker 4: Oh, oh my god, that's right, baby, should be executed

2799
02:22:45,879 --> 02:22:46,520
Speaker 4: for treason.

2800
02:22:47,040 --> 02:22:52,720
Speaker 2: Absolutely should be executed for treesa my god. Slowly, yeah,

2801
02:22:53,120 --> 02:22:57,360
Speaker 2: slowly executed. Yeah, it should be that incompetent dude who

2802
02:22:57,440 --> 02:22:59,960
Speaker 2: hung the Nazis at Nuremberg and like kept sucking up

2803
02:23:00,080 --> 02:23:00,879
Speaker 2: and making it worse.

2804
02:23:01,000 --> 02:23:03,000
Speaker 3: Bring that dude badry, Can I just do? Let me

2805
02:23:03,080 --> 02:23:04,680
Speaker 3: try one more time before you guys get mad.

2806
02:23:04,920 --> 02:23:07,879
Speaker 2: We should have frozen that motherfucker in carbonite to break

2807
02:23:07,920 --> 02:23:09,360
Speaker 2: out when the nation needed him.

2808
02:23:09,560 --> 02:23:14,520
Speaker 12: Yeah, that's amazing. Oh you guys waking be up to

2809
02:23:14,600 --> 02:23:18,200
Speaker 12: kill me. No, we actually we're huge drunk and do

2810
02:23:18,320 --> 02:23:21,120
Speaker 12: another hangar huge fans. We've got you a handle of

2811
02:23:21,160 --> 02:23:27,040
Speaker 12: gin here, and this is very kissinger. Shut up, just

2812
02:23:27,200 --> 02:23:30,200
Speaker 12: do whatever. You just kill him as fast as you can.

2813
02:23:30,560 --> 02:23:32,880
Speaker 12: That's the only note. But I took a lot of

2814
02:23:32,959 --> 02:23:35,440
Speaker 12: notes from him back in the day, like he's great,

2815
02:23:35,600 --> 02:23:36,080
Speaker 12: he's great.

2816
02:23:36,280 --> 02:23:36,800
Speaker 3: Just kill him.

2817
02:23:37,720 --> 02:23:40,760
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't think he could die, though, I will

2818
02:23:40,800 --> 02:23:42,600
Speaker 2: say I don't think that guy could read.

2819
02:23:47,560 --> 02:23:47,600
Speaker 1: So.

2820
02:23:47,720 --> 02:23:51,520
Speaker 2: Obviously, Kissinger is the back channel who was spreading this information.

2821
02:23:51,840 --> 02:23:55,080
Speaker 2: Now in his own memoirs, Nixon later admitted to hearing

2822
02:23:55,120 --> 02:23:57,240
Speaker 2: about the proposed bombing Hall through what he termed as

2823
02:23:57,240 --> 02:24:01,600
Speaker 2: a highly unusual channel. Christopher Hitchen continues, it was more

2824
02:24:01,680 --> 02:24:05,080
Speaker 2: unusual even than he acknowledged. Kissinger had until then been

2825
02:24:05,120 --> 02:24:09,200
Speaker 2: a devoted partisan of Nelson Rockefeller, the matchlessly wealthy prince

2826
02:24:09,240 --> 02:24:12,560
Speaker 2: of Liberal Republicanism. His contempt for the person and policies

2827
02:24:12,560 --> 02:24:16,840
Speaker 2: of Richard Nixon was undisguised. Indeed, President Johnson's Paris negotiators,

2828
02:24:16,920 --> 02:24:19,720
Speaker 2: led by Avril Harriman, considered Kissinger to be almost one

2829
02:24:19,760 --> 02:24:22,920
Speaker 2: of themselves. He had made himself helpful as Rockefeller's cheap

2830
02:24:23,000 --> 02:24:26,760
Speaker 2: foreign policy advisor by supplying French intermediaries with their own

2831
02:24:26,840 --> 02:24:29,680
Speaker 2: contacts in Hanoi. Henry was the only person outside of

2832
02:24:29,720 --> 02:24:32,400
Speaker 2: the government that we were authorized to discuss the negotiations with,

2833
02:24:32,600 --> 02:24:35,840
Speaker 2: says Richard Holbrook. We trusted him. It is not stretching

2834
02:24:35,920 --> 02:24:38,120
Speaker 2: the truth to say that the Nixon campaign had a

2835
02:24:38,160 --> 02:24:41,840
Speaker 2: secret source within the US negotiating team, So the likelihood

2836
02:24:41,840 --> 02:24:43,920
Speaker 2: of a bombing halt, wrote Nixon, came as no real

2837
02:24:43,959 --> 02:24:46,680
Speaker 2: surprise to me. He added, I told Haldeman that Mitchell

2838
02:24:46,720 --> 02:24:49,720
Speaker 2: should stay a continuous liaison with Kissinger and that we

2839
02:24:49,760 --> 02:24:52,760
Speaker 2: should honor his desire to keep his role completely confidential.

2840
02:24:52,920 --> 02:24:54,120
Speaker 2: So this is all in the open now.

2841
02:24:54,400 --> 02:24:54,600
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2842
02:24:54,959 --> 02:24:57,440
Speaker 3: I also, I mean Nixon really just never shut the

2843
02:24:57,520 --> 02:25:00,720
Speaker 3: fuck up. I mean he didn't. He really he was

2844
02:25:00,840 --> 02:25:02,880
Speaker 3: like the drunk guy at a party who had just

2845
02:25:03,000 --> 02:25:03,920
Speaker 3: sort of tell you whatever.

2846
02:25:04,160 --> 02:25:06,400
Speaker 2: Like honestly, he's the guy Donald Trump might put a

2847
02:25:06,440 --> 02:25:07,879
Speaker 2: hand on be like, hey man, you're.

2848
02:25:07,840 --> 02:25:11,080
Speaker 3: Saying you shouldn't you say some stuff that you probably

2849
02:25:11,120 --> 02:25:14,360
Speaker 3: shouldn't right now. I think you might not. I think

2850
02:25:14,400 --> 02:25:16,440
Speaker 3: you might regret this. Sxplode. I just take a lot

2851
02:25:16,440 --> 02:25:19,440
Speaker 3: of stuff you probably shouldn't. And I'm on Twitter. Yeah,

2852
02:25:21,000 --> 02:25:23,800
Speaker 3: so that is just so crazy and just says it all,

2853
02:25:24,120 --> 02:25:27,920
Speaker 3: you know, And this is and it's gotten worse. I mean,

2854
02:25:28,080 --> 02:25:30,040
Speaker 3: it's just fucking bonkers. Now.

2855
02:25:30,200 --> 02:25:32,520
Speaker 2: The bombing halt was planned for October twenty third, but

2856
02:25:32,600 --> 02:25:34,959
Speaker 2: thanks to Kissinger, the Nixon campaign was able to lobby

2857
02:25:35,040 --> 02:25:38,039
Speaker 2: South Vietnam to increase their demands suddenly at the bargaining table,

2858
02:25:38,080 --> 02:25:41,120
Speaker 2: which wrecked attempted agreements being made with North Vietnam. This,

2859
02:25:41,360 --> 02:25:43,200
Speaker 2: you know, there's a process. This happens back and forth

2860
02:25:43,280 --> 02:25:46,240
Speaker 2: until the bombing halt is completely scuttled and peace negotiations

2861
02:25:46,280 --> 02:25:49,240
Speaker 2: fall apart. Since all this was happening behind closed doors,

2862
02:25:49,560 --> 02:25:52,000
Speaker 2: Humphrey never got to present the possibility of a bombing

2863
02:25:52,040 --> 02:25:55,000
Speaker 2: halt to the American people. Nixon avoided having to take

2864
02:25:55,000 --> 02:25:57,320
Speaker 2: into stance of any kind on the issue because obviously,

2865
02:25:57,360 --> 02:25:59,720
Speaker 2: as the peace candidate, he couldn't say you shouldn't do it, right.

2866
02:26:00,080 --> 02:26:01,440
Speaker 2: He didn't even want it to come up at all.

2867
02:26:02,320 --> 02:26:05,320
Speaker 2: The Johnson administration made one final attempt to push through

2868
02:26:05,360 --> 02:26:07,320
Speaker 2: a bombing halt at the end of October, but the

2869
02:26:07,400 --> 02:26:11,160
Speaker 2: South Vietnamese government, warned by Kissinger via Nixon, preempted this

2870
02:26:11,320 --> 02:26:14,880
Speaker 2: with a surprise boycott of the peace talks. Now, while

2871
02:26:14,879 --> 02:26:17,720
Speaker 2: all this is happening, Kissinger is also advising the Humphrey

2872
02:26:17,800 --> 02:26:21,320
Speaker 2: campaign and is so respected there that he was considered

2873
02:26:21,360 --> 02:26:23,360
Speaker 2: a shoe in for a senior job if they'd managed

2874
02:26:23,400 --> 02:26:23,640
Speaker 2: to win.

2875
02:26:23,879 --> 02:26:24,600
Speaker 3: There's three of them.

2876
02:26:24,640 --> 02:26:29,199
Speaker 5: Sucking Democrats are so fucking stupid, I know, right.

2877
02:26:29,200 --> 02:26:32,440
Speaker 3: There's three of them. There's three kiss olers. No, just

2878
02:26:33,360 --> 02:26:36,280
Speaker 3: are you walking around buddy Henry's I'm gonna give him

2879
02:26:36,280 --> 02:26:39,840
Speaker 3: a good old job. That's our body. You're talking about men, sir.

2880
02:26:41,640 --> 02:26:43,280
Speaker 4: And then I can never get over the fact that

2881
02:26:43,440 --> 02:26:46,000
Speaker 4: Hilary walked around with him during the fucking campaign.

2882
02:26:46,200 --> 02:26:52,080
Speaker 3: It's amazing, really walking to be fair day he fucking is.

2883
02:26:52,320 --> 02:26:54,320
Speaker 2: He's like one of those episodes of Fraser where he's

2884
02:26:54,400 --> 02:26:56,280
Speaker 2: dating two women at the same time and trying to

2885
02:26:56,360 --> 02:27:00,800
Speaker 2: keep it secret. That's the same restaurant Jack Tripper. Yeah,

2886
02:27:04,280 --> 02:27:06,119
Speaker 2: it's very funny, except for all.

2887
02:27:06,080 --> 02:27:08,840
Speaker 3: Of the millions and millions. Yes, let me ask you that.

2888
02:27:09,120 --> 02:27:12,560
Speaker 5: So do you have the numbers on where the deaths

2889
02:27:12,600 --> 02:27:13,600
Speaker 5: were at in Vietnam?

2890
02:27:15,560 --> 02:27:18,320
Speaker 2: I'll yeah, I'll get you that in a minute.

2891
02:27:18,520 --> 02:27:20,440
Speaker 3: Why did I ask? Yeah?

2892
02:27:20,760 --> 02:27:24,320
Speaker 2: Nixon by also like grows convinced of Kissinger's value during

2893
02:27:24,360 --> 02:27:26,119
Speaker 2: this period of time too, and he becomes a shoe

2894
02:27:26,200 --> 02:27:28,560
Speaker 2: in for a senior job there. He was particularly impressed

2895
02:27:28,600 --> 02:27:31,400
Speaker 2: by the skill with which Kissinger protected his identity as

2896
02:27:31,440 --> 02:27:34,680
Speaker 2: the leaker from the Humphrey campaign. Nixon later wrote, one

2897
02:27:34,760 --> 02:27:37,600
Speaker 2: factor that had almost convinced me of Kissinger's credibility was

2898
02:27:37,640 --> 02:27:39,960
Speaker 2: the link to which he went to protect his secrecy.

2899
02:27:40,600 --> 02:27:43,480
Speaker 3: What a terrible I mean, that's just not a good

2900
02:27:43,520 --> 02:27:48,440
Speaker 3: personality trait. It's really not it's actually not is but

2901
02:27:48,680 --> 02:27:49,440
Speaker 3: not this guy.

2902
02:27:49,680 --> 02:27:53,160
Speaker 5: This guy is the best double agent. He's so fucking great, he'll.

2903
02:27:53,040 --> 02:27:56,160
Speaker 3: Fuck And this guy's an unbelievable ship bag liar.

2904
02:27:56,840 --> 02:28:02,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, honestly, it makes sense that like Nixon

2905
02:28:03,000 --> 02:28:05,440
Speaker 2: would be super into that. Oh yeah, wow, this guy's

2906
02:28:05,480 --> 02:28:06,520
Speaker 2: a real piece of shit.

2907
02:28:06,600 --> 02:28:10,120
Speaker 3: Oh I'm Jick Nixon. This guy can lie to you.

2908
02:28:11,640 --> 02:28:13,600
Speaker 3: Let me tell you as a liar.

2909
02:28:19,440 --> 02:28:22,600
Speaker 2: Oh fuck, it's fucking amazing.

2910
02:28:22,720 --> 02:28:23,199
Speaker 3: It's bad.

2911
02:28:24,440 --> 02:28:27,080
Speaker 2: Clark Clifford, who would later was again the Secretary of

2912
02:28:27,080 --> 02:28:28,560
Speaker 2: Defense at the time, would later blame the fact that

2913
02:28:28,640 --> 02:28:30,720
Speaker 2: the war did not end in nineteen sixty eight and

2914
02:28:30,800 --> 02:28:33,120
Speaker 2: the loss of the Humphrey campaign in that election, on

2915
02:28:33,240 --> 02:28:36,520
Speaker 2: the school duggery of the Nixon campaign, which was orchestrated

2916
02:28:36,560 --> 02:28:38,000
Speaker 2: in part by Henry Kissinger.

2917
02:28:38,280 --> 02:28:38,560
Speaker 3: Quote.

2918
02:28:39,000 --> 02:28:41,120
Speaker 2: The activities of the Nixon team went far beyond the

2919
02:28:41,160 --> 02:28:44,840
Speaker 2: bounds of justifiable political combat. It constituted direct interference in

2920
02:28:44,879 --> 02:28:47,400
Speaker 2: the activities of the executive branch and the responsibilities of

2921
02:28:47,440 --> 02:28:50,720
Speaker 2: the chief executive. The only people with authority to negotiate

2922
02:28:50,800 --> 02:28:52,920
Speaker 2: on behalf of the nation. The activities of the Nix

2923
02:28:53,120 --> 02:28:56,440
Speaker 2: campaign constituted a gross, even potentially illegal interference in the

2924
02:28:56,480 --> 02:29:00,280
Speaker 2: security affairs of the nation by private individuals, which is

2925
02:29:00,400 --> 02:29:02,880
Speaker 2: the polite political walk way of saying it. In the

2926
02:29:02,920 --> 02:29:06,360
Speaker 2: book Kissinger's shadow, Greg Grandon, is even more pointed the

2927
02:29:06,440 --> 02:29:09,400
Speaker 2: fact that Kissinger participated in an intrigue that extended the

2928
02:29:09,440 --> 02:29:12,360
Speaker 2: war for five pointless years seven if you count the

2929
02:29:12,400 --> 02:29:15,120
Speaker 2: fighting between the nineteen seventy three Paris Piece Accords in

2930
02:29:15,160 --> 02:29:18,879
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventy five Fall of Psygone is undeniable. Adding

2931
02:29:18,920 --> 02:29:21,320
Speaker 2: to the evidence is Kissinger himself. He's been caught on

2932
02:29:21,400 --> 02:29:24,800
Speaker 2: tape twice on recordings recently released admitting he passed on

2933
02:29:24,959 --> 02:29:26,400
Speaker 2: useful information to Nixon.

2934
02:29:26,959 --> 02:29:31,400
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ, my god. It's like killing him isn't enough.

2935
02:29:32,120 --> 02:29:33,720
Speaker 5: No, he should be gibbeted.

2936
02:29:34,040 --> 02:29:36,040
Speaker 4: I said, so, we need to bring back Gibbeting and

2937
02:29:36,160 --> 02:29:40,600
Speaker 4: just hang that motherfucker somewhere in a nice cage box, like, yeah,

2938
02:29:40,760 --> 02:29:41,560
Speaker 4: leave him out there.

2939
02:29:41,560 --> 02:29:43,600
Speaker 2: Leave him out, Let people pelt him with stuff.

2940
02:29:43,720 --> 02:29:49,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, fuck, kill him by throwing potatoes at it, right,

2941
02:29:49,440 --> 02:29:51,560
Speaker 3: because he's not that strong anymore. And you want it

2942
02:29:51,640 --> 02:29:53,440
Speaker 3: to last a while, tatoes. Yeah.

2943
02:29:54,240 --> 02:29:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we'll talk a bit later about how he

2944
02:29:57,680 --> 02:29:59,520
Speaker 2: got caught on tape and why we know about all

2945
02:29:59,560 --> 02:30:02,240
Speaker 2: of this, because that's a fun story, guys. It involves

2946
02:30:02,240 --> 02:30:05,440
Speaker 2: a different series of crimes. But Grandon makes another point

2947
02:30:05,480 --> 02:30:09,359
Speaker 2: that's worth acknowledging here. Well, Kissinger definitely had inside information

2948
02:30:09,440 --> 02:30:12,039
Speaker 2: from the Johnson campaign, which he passed on. He also

2949
02:30:12,160 --> 02:30:14,720
Speaker 2: didn't have as much information as he pretended to know

2950
02:30:14,879 --> 02:30:16,520
Speaker 2: when he talked to the Nixon campaign.

2951
02:30:16,560 --> 02:30:17,680
Speaker 3: Oh Jesus quote.

2952
02:30:18,280 --> 02:30:21,200
Speaker 2: Even with access to Johnson's negotiating instructions, he couldn't have

2953
02:30:21,240 --> 02:30:23,520
Speaker 2: had exact information about the decisions being made at the

2954
02:30:23,560 --> 02:30:25,640
Speaker 2: White House. He had to have been winging it, at

2955
02:30:25,720 --> 02:30:28,960
Speaker 2: least to some degree, guessing at what others knew, imagining

2956
02:30:29,000 --> 02:30:31,080
Speaker 2: what others would do with that, guess playing the angle,

2957
02:30:31,200 --> 02:30:33,600
Speaker 2: sussing out the chance a well, giving the appearance of

2958
02:30:33,640 --> 02:30:36,040
Speaker 2: composure and certainty, he was right winging it.

2959
02:30:36,600 --> 02:30:44,000
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, what an absolute fucking psychopath on Like,

2960
02:30:44,080 --> 02:30:46,280
Speaker 4: that's the kind of shit. Like you said, if you're

2961
02:30:46,360 --> 02:30:49,320
Speaker 4: dating two women, you're trying to figure it out and

2962
02:30:49,440 --> 02:30:52,360
Speaker 4: get through some sticky situation. But he's doing this with

2963
02:30:52,600 --> 02:30:56,200
Speaker 4: fucking Vietnam and two presidential campaigns.

2964
02:30:56,280 --> 02:31:01,720
Speaker 13: I don't, yeah, craziness, the absolute lack of a soul

2965
02:31:02,240 --> 02:31:06,840
Speaker 13: is oh yeah, he is pure blackness inside.

2966
02:31:07,280 --> 02:31:18,680
Speaker 3: M Yeah, Dave, let me push back for a second. God, wow, yeah,

2967
02:31:19,240 --> 02:31:22,280
Speaker 3: you can't. I mean, it's it's it's hard to even

2968
02:31:22,320 --> 02:31:26,600
Speaker 3: speak to it because it's like to look, I'll kill

2969
02:31:26,680 --> 02:31:30,040
Speaker 3: five people for a job, but at some point you

2970
02:31:30,200 --> 02:31:30,520
Speaker 3: have to.

2971
02:31:30,640 --> 02:31:32,840
Speaker 2: Be a normal share Yeah that's regular.

2972
02:31:33,520 --> 02:31:36,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but but to to let, I mean, to just

2973
02:31:37,520 --> 02:31:40,480
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's it is he killed, he killed.

2974
02:31:40,959 --> 02:31:43,920
Speaker 5: I mean, how many Vietnamese died after that?

2975
02:31:44,160 --> 02:31:45,280
Speaker 3: Like so many?

2976
02:31:45,959 --> 02:31:48,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, we're talking, you know, was it like a million

2977
02:31:48,879 --> 02:31:49,879
Speaker 5: died in the whole wars?

2978
02:31:50,080 --> 02:31:51,360
Speaker 4: More than no?

2979
02:31:51,640 --> 02:31:53,720
Speaker 2: I mean it is because you also have to include

2980
02:31:53,720 --> 02:31:58,080
Speaker 2: the people who died in cam Radia and and in

2981
02:31:58,320 --> 02:32:00,920
Speaker 2: in Vietnam. We're gonna get into more of the episode three,

2982
02:32:01,600 --> 02:32:06,240
Speaker 2: but conservatively an additional couple of million deaths as a

2983
02:32:06,280 --> 02:32:09,200
Speaker 2: result of this, in addition to an additional twenty thousand

2984
02:32:09,320 --> 02:32:11,840
Speaker 2: US dead. It's kind of hard the death toll to

2985
02:32:11,879 --> 02:32:14,760
Speaker 2: get precisely like a couple million, like in the million,

2986
02:32:14,879 --> 02:32:18,800
Speaker 2: A couple of additional dead because this day by the

2987
02:32:18,840 --> 02:32:20,240
Speaker 2: way because I was just going.

2988
02:32:20,160 --> 02:32:24,880
Speaker 5: To say die because he wanted a job.

2989
02:32:25,840 --> 02:32:29,520
Speaker 14: This was he wanted a He's essentially lying in a

2990
02:32:29,680 --> 02:32:32,840
Speaker 14: job interview like you would if you were I had

2991
02:32:32,920 --> 02:32:37,160
Speaker 14: no fast food experience in where taco except millions of

2992
02:32:37,280 --> 02:32:38,119
Speaker 14: people are dying.

2993
02:32:38,680 --> 02:32:45,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's awesome, holy crazy, it's the crazy.

2994
02:32:46,440 --> 02:32:49,800
Speaker 4: The thing you've done here is you've you've you've humanized

2995
02:32:49,879 --> 02:32:55,680
Speaker 4: the situation for me, because, like, I can understand that

2996
02:32:56,080 --> 02:32:58,160
Speaker 4: there's evil people out there and they do stuff like

2997
02:32:58,320 --> 02:33:00,960
Speaker 4: they want to bomb Camp Cambodia, they want to do

2998
02:33:01,040 --> 02:33:04,080
Speaker 4: this other stuff. But when you take it to a

2999
02:33:04,240 --> 02:33:07,560
Speaker 4: level where it's a guy winging it in a meeting,

3000
02:33:07,959 --> 02:33:10,720
Speaker 4: it takes on a whole different flavor of evil. That

3001
02:33:11,080 --> 02:33:13,160
Speaker 4: is something because now that's something we can all understand.

3002
02:33:13,200 --> 02:33:15,280
Speaker 4: We've all been a situation where like ah, yeah, this

3003
02:33:15,440 --> 02:33:18,400
Speaker 4: guy did a thing, and then I did a thing,

3004
02:33:18,480 --> 02:33:20,360
Speaker 4: and you're just trying to get through a situation.

3005
02:33:20,600 --> 02:33:21,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've all experienced that.

3006
02:33:22,440 --> 02:33:25,120
Speaker 4: None of us have experienced given the green light to

3007
02:33:25,400 --> 02:33:29,440
Speaker 4: you know, dropping bombs and killing people. But that I

3008
02:33:29,600 --> 02:33:32,360
Speaker 4: get and I feel in my bones of like, well,

3009
02:33:32,400 --> 02:33:34,680
Speaker 4: holy shit, but you're doing that with millions of people's

3010
02:33:34,720 --> 02:33:35,480
Speaker 4: lives on the line.

3011
02:33:35,800 --> 02:33:37,960
Speaker 2: It is. It is this thing where the idea I

3012
02:33:38,040 --> 02:33:39,960
Speaker 2: had always had before I really got into was that like,

3013
02:33:40,040 --> 02:33:41,440
Speaker 2: well he did you know, he was involved in all

3014
02:33:41,480 --> 02:33:43,160
Speaker 2: of these horrible things that I knew who was involved in,

3015
02:33:43,240 --> 02:33:45,800
Speaker 2: but like I assumed it was from a wonky perspective

3016
02:33:45,800 --> 02:33:48,080
Speaker 2: of like he believed strongly in the need to fight

3017
02:33:48,200 --> 02:33:50,880
Speaker 2: these wars and that anything was justified, and so he

3018
02:33:50,959 --> 02:33:52,960
Speaker 2: did these horrible things because he believed we were in

3019
02:33:53,000 --> 02:33:55,520
Speaker 2: this like civilizational struggle and certain things were necessary in that.

3020
02:33:55,560 --> 02:33:57,080
Speaker 2: And like he had all of these different kind of

3021
02:33:57,480 --> 02:33:59,920
Speaker 2: very complex moral beliefs that he wrote dozens of books

3022
02:34:00,000 --> 02:34:01,920
Speaker 2: about explaining why he did the things. At the end

3023
02:34:01,920 --> 02:34:03,440
Speaker 2: of the day, no motherfucker wanted a gig.

3024
02:34:03,720 --> 02:34:07,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. And by the way, it's not like he would

3025
02:34:07,560 --> 02:34:11,160
Speaker 3: have been out of politics, like even in his downtime,

3026
02:34:11,280 --> 02:34:14,200
Speaker 3: he was like, you know, he was gigging. Like it's

3027
02:34:14,360 --> 02:34:17,080
Speaker 3: just like he would have been patiently waiting for another

3028
02:34:17,160 --> 02:34:20,280
Speaker 3: administration or have been working in whatever, like you know,

3029
02:34:20,879 --> 02:34:22,960
Speaker 3: he didn't. He didn't want to work at job.

3030
02:34:23,320 --> 02:34:25,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, he didn't want to work at Uncle Chuckle Fox.

3031
02:34:25,120 --> 02:34:27,080
Speaker 4: He wanted the gig at Charlie Good Nights like he

3032
02:34:27,120 --> 02:34:28,520
Speaker 4: doesn't want to work at a premier club.

3033
02:34:30,240 --> 02:34:32,800
Speaker 2: He literally like did the Like that's the thing. He

3034
02:34:32,840 --> 02:34:34,160
Speaker 2: didn't just do this for a job. He did this

3035
02:34:34,280 --> 02:34:36,280
Speaker 2: for like one of the two jobs and the one

3036
02:34:36,360 --> 02:34:37,680
Speaker 2: he kind of didn't want as much.

3037
02:34:37,840 --> 02:34:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3038
02:34:38,360 --> 02:34:42,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the guy. Yeah, I'm un fucking conscionable.

3039
02:34:43,160 --> 02:34:45,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really hard to like, it is hard and

3040
02:34:45,920 --> 02:34:48,240
Speaker 2: like it's I think it's easier to understand now what

3041
02:34:48,400 --> 02:34:50,720
Speaker 2: he did. It's hard to like judge him adequately in

3042
02:34:50,800 --> 02:34:53,800
Speaker 2: moral terms that are even like comprehensible because it's so

3043
02:34:53,959 --> 02:34:54,360
Speaker 2: much out.

3044
02:34:54,560 --> 02:34:55,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's hard to process.

3045
02:34:56,520 --> 02:34:58,040
Speaker 2: It really is one of those like say what you

3046
02:34:58,080 --> 02:35:00,200
Speaker 2: will about the tenets of nihilism, dude. At least it's

3047
02:35:00,240 --> 02:35:02,400
Speaker 2: an ethos moments where it's like I'm thinking about like

3048
02:35:02,560 --> 02:35:05,320
Speaker 2: people like fucking Saddam or whatever, where it's like, yeah,

3049
02:35:05,360 --> 02:35:07,920
Speaker 2: that was a piece of ship. There were definitely some

3050
02:35:08,160 --> 02:35:11,800
Speaker 2: things he believed though, like yeah, like there's pieces of

3051
02:35:11,840 --> 02:35:15,120
Speaker 2: shit out like fucking out there who like there are

3052
02:35:15,320 --> 02:35:20,000
Speaker 2: things they believe, and Kissinger just believes he should be

3053
02:35:20,160 --> 02:35:20,800
Speaker 2: close to power.

3054
02:35:20,920 --> 02:35:24,280
Speaker 3: Kissinger. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was like doctrine was Kissinger.

3055
02:35:24,440 --> 02:35:26,280
Speaker 4: He's like, I'm really smart, I should be in the

3056
02:35:26,520 --> 02:35:28,920
Speaker 4: top game, and yeah, I just want to be there.

3057
02:35:28,959 --> 02:35:31,240
Speaker 3: It's awesome. Yeah. I like how he thinks his childhood

3058
02:35:31,240 --> 02:35:37,520
Speaker 3: didn't fuck with him. Yeah. Yeah, like dude, bro, yeah what.

3059
02:35:38,000 --> 02:35:39,800
Speaker 4: You know, it would be even better if he if

3060
02:35:39,920 --> 02:35:41,640
Speaker 4: all of this was happening, and it was just because,

3061
02:35:41,680 --> 02:35:44,080
Speaker 4: like he he was like, I know, I can get

3062
02:35:44,120 --> 02:35:46,920
Speaker 4: so many more chicks if I'm in the white House. Yeah,

3063
02:35:47,120 --> 02:35:48,320
Speaker 4: that was the whole reason for it.

3064
02:35:48,400 --> 02:35:49,640
Speaker 3: He's just like, I just want to get laid.

3065
02:35:50,120 --> 02:35:51,920
Speaker 2: Look, it is not a non factor.

3066
02:35:52,879 --> 02:35:55,080
Speaker 3: Wait is he Is he married right now? Or is

3067
02:35:55,120 --> 02:35:56,240
Speaker 3: he single? Oh?

3068
02:35:56,560 --> 02:35:59,720
Speaker 2: Lord, who knows? He's I mean I think he gets married.

3069
02:35:59,760 --> 02:36:02,200
Speaker 2: It's point. But he's also like, you know, well, I

3070
02:36:02,240 --> 02:36:04,160
Speaker 2: don't know. Actually, he's kind of like a bachelor dude.

3071
02:36:04,320 --> 02:36:06,600
Speaker 2: We'll talk about that later. I'm still working on those

3072
02:36:06,680 --> 02:36:09,959
Speaker 2: episodes because there's a whole thing to be said about

3073
02:36:10,040 --> 02:36:15,240
Speaker 2: Kissinger and women and sex appeal. He gets he was married, Well, yeah,

3074
02:36:15,280 --> 02:36:17,440
Speaker 2: he definitely was married at points, but he's also like

3075
02:36:17,640 --> 02:36:18,480
Speaker 2: kind of a playboy.

3076
02:36:19,520 --> 02:36:19,680
Speaker 3: God.

3077
02:36:19,760 --> 02:36:21,440
Speaker 2: I'm going to go back in time a little bit

3078
02:36:21,480 --> 02:36:22,120
Speaker 2: and talk about some.

3079
02:36:22,160 --> 02:36:22,680
Speaker 3: Of that later.

3080
02:36:23,160 --> 02:36:26,080
Speaker 1: He was married his first His first marriage was nineteen

3081
02:36:26,280 --> 02:36:29,440
Speaker 1: forty nine to nineteen sixty four, so I don't think

3082
02:36:29,520 --> 02:36:32,440
Speaker 1: he's and that he's not remarried again until seventy four,

3083
02:36:32,560 --> 02:36:35,360
Speaker 1: So that sounds right. He's married in this little hall.

3084
02:36:35,440 --> 02:36:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder why she left him.

3085
02:36:37,400 --> 02:36:40,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, no idea.

3086
02:36:41,120 --> 02:36:43,680
Speaker 5: So he's the only guy who comes black.

3087
02:36:44,480 --> 02:36:46,600
Speaker 2: I haven't written the episode yet, but I have several

3088
02:36:46,640 --> 02:36:49,320
Speaker 2: pages of people talking about Henry Kissinger's sex appeal on

3089
02:36:49,400 --> 02:36:52,840
Speaker 2: the news that are real, real black pilling as the

3090
02:36:52,920 --> 02:37:01,400
Speaker 2: kids saying, oh my god, not good. Oh. Nixon wins

3091
02:37:01,560 --> 02:37:04,320
Speaker 2: the sixty eight election. Obviously, he gets inaugurated in nineteen

3092
02:37:04,360 --> 02:37:07,440
Speaker 2: sixty nine. The Vietnam War continues on for half a

3093
02:37:07,680 --> 02:37:12,280
Speaker 2: decade ish. This was an almost incalculable humanitarian tragedy as

3094
02:37:12,320 --> 02:37:14,720
Speaker 2: well as disastrous for the future stability and cohesion of

3095
02:37:14,720 --> 02:37:16,600
Speaker 2: the United States. But it was dope as hell for

3096
02:37:16,640 --> 02:37:18,760
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger, who was swiftly appointed Nixon.

3097
02:37:18,920 --> 02:37:20,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, like to put out there that my uncle went

3098
02:37:20,959 --> 02:37:23,160
Speaker 4: to Vietnam and nutally, you know, he had to kill

3099
02:37:23,160 --> 02:37:24,680
Speaker 4: a lot of people and until he fucking runed his

3100
02:37:24,760 --> 02:37:26,200
Speaker 4: life and he watched Fastey and stuff.

3101
02:37:26,240 --> 02:37:28,560
Speaker 3: So thank you, Richard Nixon. Thank you Richard Nixon.

3102
02:37:29,640 --> 02:37:32,879
Speaker 2: Everybody who went to Vietnam after sixty eight, say thank

3103
02:37:32,959 --> 02:37:37,040
Speaker 2: you to Richard for Nixon and Kissinger for you know,

3104
02:37:37,560 --> 02:37:39,800
Speaker 2: all of the trauma and the trauma that in some

3105
02:37:39,959 --> 02:37:42,320
Speaker 2: cases some of you passed on to your family members,

3106
02:37:43,600 --> 02:37:46,120
Speaker 2: and the trauma that has been passed on societally based

3107
02:37:46,160 --> 02:37:48,520
Speaker 2: on our attitudes towards war because of how Vietnam went

3108
02:37:48,640 --> 02:37:50,400
Speaker 2: and the ways in which some people were always looking

3109
02:37:50,440 --> 02:37:52,160
Speaker 2: for a rematch, and it got us into other you know,

3110
02:37:52,480 --> 02:37:55,720
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you, thank you, Yeah, thank you stuff,

3111
02:37:56,280 --> 02:37:59,600
Speaker 2: good stuff. Imagine if like that had been the end

3112
02:37:59,600 --> 02:38:03,240
Speaker 2: of Vietnam, that like there was actually a president realized,

3113
02:38:03,400 --> 02:38:05,480
Speaker 2: you know, the foolishness of a conflict, and we went

3114
02:38:05,520 --> 02:38:09,280
Speaker 2: to the table and like negotiations were made and I.

3115
02:38:09,320 --> 02:38:12,760
Speaker 4: Don't think I don't think the first Iraquis happens, the

3116
02:38:13,040 --> 02:38:14,480
Speaker 4: evasion Panama doesn't happen.

3117
02:38:14,680 --> 02:38:16,920
Speaker 3: You would think that for how long Vietnam dragged on,

3118
02:38:17,040 --> 02:38:20,120
Speaker 3: that that would have actually been a lesson to not

3119
02:38:20,440 --> 02:38:23,680
Speaker 3: go into conflicts, you know, no aimless conflict.

3120
02:38:23,720 --> 02:38:28,800
Speaker 2: But no, I guess the problem is we're thinking there's

3121
02:38:28,920 --> 02:38:30,119
Speaker 2: people should learn lessons.

3122
02:38:30,240 --> 02:38:34,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that war is it anyway like a moral

3123
02:38:34,560 --> 02:38:37,520
Speaker 3: decision or like actually comes from a place of actual

3124
02:38:38,120 --> 02:38:42,360
Speaker 3: you know, savior mentality, anything like that. You know, Yeah,

3125
02:38:42,920 --> 02:38:43,600
Speaker 3: it's good stuff.

3126
02:38:44,320 --> 02:38:48,200
Speaker 2: Getting disappointment as National Security Advisor required a lot more

3127
02:38:48,280 --> 02:38:52,200
Speaker 2: politicking from Kissinger, including spreading rumors to Nixon before his

3128
02:38:52,280 --> 02:38:55,360
Speaker 2: inauguration that Johnson planned to either depose or kill the

3129
02:38:55,400 --> 02:38:58,400
Speaker 2: president of South Vietnam before he left office. Because you

3130
02:38:58,520 --> 02:39:02,080
Speaker 2: pushed this rumor to the pre intellect via regular bastards,

3131
02:39:02,120 --> 02:39:06,440
Speaker 2: pods side character and Rhodesia enthusiast enthusiast William F. Buckley,

3132
02:39:07,320 --> 02:39:09,959
Speaker 2: Buckley's middleman to lighten Nixon.

3133
02:39:12,480 --> 02:39:15,160
Speaker 3: Translator. Yeah, William F.

3134
02:39:15,280 --> 02:39:19,400
Speaker 2: Buckley, whose son went on to write, honestly a pretty

3135
02:39:19,440 --> 02:39:23,680
Speaker 2: fun book. But we don't need to think too much

3136
02:39:23,720 --> 02:39:24,040
Speaker 2: about that.

3137
02:39:24,360 --> 02:39:24,640
Speaker 3: Wow.

3138
02:39:25,240 --> 02:39:29,760
Speaker 2: Great Aaron Eckart performance in the movie. So Nixon appreciated

3139
02:39:29,840 --> 02:39:32,760
Speaker 2: Kissinger's hutzpa and connections enough that when he put him

3140
02:39:32,760 --> 02:39:35,400
Speaker 2: at the head of the National Security Council, he ordered

3141
02:39:35,400 --> 02:39:38,040
Speaker 2: the professor to reorganize it in order to take foreign

3142
02:39:38,120 --> 02:39:42,160
Speaker 2: policy control away from the State and Defense departments. This

3143
02:39:42,360 --> 02:39:44,480
Speaker 2: means that Nixon gave Kissinger it was very close to

3144
02:39:44,560 --> 02:39:48,600
Speaker 2: a blank check to take total control of US foreign policy. Obviously,

3145
02:39:49,200 --> 02:39:51,680
Speaker 2: Nixon wanted this because he was a paranoid control freak.

3146
02:39:51,840 --> 02:39:53,920
Speaker 2: He did not want any kind of separation of powers.

3147
02:39:54,120 --> 02:39:56,120
Speaker 2: He certainly did not want to have a Secretary of

3148
02:39:56,200 --> 02:39:58,640
Speaker 2: State who could like do things that Nixon might not

3149
02:39:59,000 --> 02:40:01,680
Speaker 2: be explicitly or uttering. But the result of this was

3150
02:40:01,720 --> 02:40:04,280
Speaker 2: that Kissinger found himself in a position where he could

3151
02:40:04,360 --> 02:40:08,119
Speaker 2: exercise near absolute power and foreign policy as long as

3152
02:40:08,160 --> 02:40:12,520
Speaker 2: the President kept liking him. Oh, now, Justice Kissinger had

3153
02:40:12,560 --> 02:40:15,360
Speaker 2: little love for Nixon. Our buddy Dick Millhouse was not

3154
02:40:15,600 --> 02:40:17,880
Speaker 2: particularly warm to his new right hand man. Now you

3155
02:40:18,000 --> 02:40:21,680
Speaker 2: had given a couple of spanky hank. Yeah, you want

3156
02:40:21,680 --> 02:40:25,880
Speaker 2: to notice real Kissinger was jew boy. Oh my god,

3157
02:40:26,480 --> 02:40:31,720
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, it is Nixon. But it's like, I mean,

3158
02:40:31,879 --> 02:40:33,560
Speaker 2: I thought we would be jumping off of the name

3159
02:40:33,600 --> 02:40:34,119
Speaker 2: a little bit.

3160
02:40:34,240 --> 02:40:37,039
Speaker 3: He's just like, what am I gonna call you? Spanky Hank?

3161
02:40:37,480 --> 02:40:41,959
Speaker 3: No little jew boy lord.

3162
02:40:42,560 --> 02:40:44,800
Speaker 2: And again it says a lot about Henry Kissinger that

3163
02:40:44,879 --> 02:40:46,160
Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, right.

3164
02:40:46,160 --> 02:40:54,800
Speaker 11: That's pretty good, funny childhood have no effect on me today,

3165
02:40:57,520 --> 02:40:58,800
Speaker 11: not whats.

3166
02:41:01,440 --> 02:41:03,039
Speaker 5: So there must have been.

3167
02:41:02,959 --> 02:41:07,440
Speaker 4: An element of Nixon then who knew what an ass

3168
02:41:07,520 --> 02:41:11,800
Speaker 4: kissing little bitch he was. Oh, because he's belittling him

3169
02:41:11,840 --> 02:41:15,039
Speaker 4: to his face oh yeah, and knowing he'll stick around.

3170
02:41:15,240 --> 02:41:17,680
Speaker 3: It's why you get hired for these jobs because it's

3171
02:41:17,840 --> 02:41:21,360
Speaker 3: just like it's not, you know, an empty vacuum. Who

3172
02:41:21,800 --> 02:41:23,800
Speaker 3: is going to be your right hand man is still

3173
02:41:24,360 --> 02:41:27,120
Speaker 3: you know, there's security in that, there's there's secrecy in that.

3174
02:41:27,400 --> 02:41:30,360
Speaker 2: He's like a vacuum Gareth, and that he'll suck Nixon's dick.

3175
02:41:30,440 --> 02:41:32,200
Speaker 2: But he's also like a toilet, and that he'll take

3176
02:41:32,560 --> 02:41:34,080
Speaker 2: nixon ship. You know, that's.

3177
02:41:35,680 --> 02:41:37,120
Speaker 3: He's a dick.

3178
02:41:37,240 --> 02:41:39,840
Speaker 5: He's a human human human.

3179
02:41:40,920 --> 02:41:44,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he's like the Toto toilet is pretty effective.

3180
02:41:44,200 --> 02:41:48,680
Speaker 3: But if you ever had a dick sucking toilet, shit

3181
02:41:48,760 --> 02:41:52,760
Speaker 3: don't come either way. I'm ready for it, baby, Henry Kissing.

3182
02:41:52,959 --> 02:41:55,800
Speaker 2: So can the title be Henry Kissinger dick sucking toilet?

3183
02:41:58,920 --> 02:42:03,840
Speaker 4: We got it, draws thinking of dick sucking toilets, It

3184
02:42:03,959 --> 02:42:06,240
Speaker 4: is time for a commercial break.

3185
02:42:08,520 --> 02:42:14,760
Speaker 2: That is who sponsors our podcast Raitheon's new dick sucking toilet. Well,

3186
02:42:17,080 --> 02:42:18,920
Speaker 2: it is going to fire a missile at a busload

3187
02:42:18,959 --> 02:42:22,000
Speaker 2: of children. But that's that's just the raytheon. You know,

3188
02:42:22,160 --> 02:42:24,680
Speaker 2: we can't avoid it. We'll be obligated.

3189
02:42:25,560 --> 02:42:27,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's how it works.

3190
02:42:28,840 --> 02:42:33,200
Speaker 2: So Nixon announced Kissinger's appointment as the National Security Advisor

3191
02:42:33,440 --> 02:42:35,760
Speaker 2: before he had even picked a Secretary of State, which

3192
02:42:35,800 --> 02:42:38,960
Speaker 2: is an unprecedented move. He announced Henry as quote, and

3193
02:42:39,040 --> 02:42:41,640
Speaker 2: this is again in his public announcement to the country

3194
02:42:41,879 --> 02:42:44,280
Speaker 2: as quote, a man who is known to all people

3195
02:42:44,320 --> 02:42:46,760
Speaker 2: who are interested in foreign policy, is perhaps one of

3196
02:42:46,800 --> 02:42:49,800
Speaker 2: the major scholars in America and the world in this area.

3197
02:42:50,240 --> 02:42:52,680
Speaker 2: And he acknowledged that while Kissinger had never held a

3198
02:42:52,720 --> 02:42:56,080
Speaker 2: full time government job before, he had Nixon's confidence to

3199
02:42:56,160 --> 02:42:59,160
Speaker 2: bring in a whole new foreign policy team quote, new

3200
02:42:59,240 --> 02:43:02,720
Speaker 2: men to develop new ideas. Now, the conservative media of

3201
02:43:02,760 --> 02:43:06,320
Speaker 2: the day immediately roared into gear, hailing Henry Kissinger as

3202
02:43:06,320 --> 02:43:10,119
Speaker 2: an unprecedented policy genius, the man necessary to get America

3203
02:43:10,240 --> 02:43:12,840
Speaker 2: back on track after nearly a decade of disastrous war

3204
02:43:12,920 --> 02:43:14,199
Speaker 2: under Democratic presidents.

3205
02:43:14,520 --> 02:43:15,000
Speaker 3: William F.

3206
02:43:15,040 --> 02:43:18,640
Speaker 2: Buckley wrote, not since Florence Nightingale has any public figure

3207
02:43:18,680 --> 02:43:21,040
Speaker 2: received such universal acclamation.

3208
02:43:22,120 --> 02:43:33,279
Speaker 3: Ruin her William F. Buckley fantastic. Yeah, it's amazing.

3209
02:43:34,240 --> 02:43:38,279
Speaker 2: But even ostensibly liberal figures were wooed by Kissinger's titanic

3210
02:43:38,400 --> 02:43:42,199
Speaker 2: intellect and Henry Kissinger and American power. Thomas Schwartz, writes.

3211
02:43:42,720 --> 02:43:45,880
Speaker 2: The liberal historian Arthur Slushinger Junior simply referred to it

3212
02:43:45,920 --> 02:43:48,800
Speaker 2: as the best appointment so far. The New York Times

3213
02:43:48,879 --> 02:43:52,120
Speaker 2: columnist Tom Wicker noted the collective sigh of relief that

3214
02:43:52,200 --> 02:43:55,240
Speaker 2: went up from the liberal Eastern establishment and the Ivy

3215
02:43:55,360 --> 02:43:58,440
Speaker 2: League fearing Nixon's cold warrior image, most shared in the

3216
02:43:58,520 --> 02:44:03,320
Speaker 2: sentiment of Kissinger's Harvard colleague Adam Yarmolinsky. We'll all sleep

3217
02:44:03,360 --> 02:44:04,400
Speaker 2: a little better each night.

3218
02:44:04,520 --> 02:44:07,560
Speaker 3: No, mean, Kissinger is down there, you mean, in the toilet,

3219
02:44:07,600 --> 02:44:11,640
Speaker 3: getting ready to suck that. You know, it's exactly what

3220
02:44:11,760 --> 02:44:15,840
Speaker 3: happened with Trump. Yes, And it's like it's the way

3221
02:44:15,959 --> 02:44:20,480
Speaker 3: that I mean again, it's people's natural reaction is normally

3222
02:44:20,760 --> 02:44:24,400
Speaker 3: kind of there. It's just this, the fears are assuaged

3223
02:44:24,480 --> 02:44:28,879
Speaker 3: by people who they consider to be, you know, the compass,

3224
02:44:29,440 --> 02:44:32,600
Speaker 3: and they're just not. And so when you're told that

3225
02:44:32,720 --> 02:44:36,160
Speaker 3: there are the good guys inside the bad camp, it's

3226
02:44:36,240 --> 02:44:39,840
Speaker 3: like it's just never fucking true. It is rot from

3227
02:44:39,959 --> 02:44:41,440
Speaker 3: the core. Yeah, and it is.

3228
02:44:41,800 --> 02:44:44,640
Speaker 2: These liberals are also are also impressed by him and

3229
02:44:44,680 --> 02:44:46,920
Speaker 2: so comforted by him because they think he's smart, because

3230
02:44:46,920 --> 02:44:49,160
Speaker 2: he's good at quoting smart dead people. Right. It is

3231
02:44:49,240 --> 02:44:51,560
Speaker 2: the same thing that happened with Mattis. Maddis, thankfully is

3232
02:44:51,640 --> 02:44:54,680
Speaker 2: not nearly as toxic a person as Henry Kissinger. But like,

3233
02:44:54,959 --> 02:44:56,920
Speaker 2: if you actually look at Madis's background, one of the

3234
02:44:56,959 --> 02:44:58,800
Speaker 2: things he did in the Iraq War was cover up

3235
02:44:58,840 --> 02:45:01,480
Speaker 2: a war crime. He's not a not a man to

3236
02:45:01,560 --> 02:45:03,480
Speaker 2: be like I mean, and he was. He was like

3237
02:45:03,760 --> 02:45:06,120
Speaker 2: he was very popular among like people who served under him,

3238
02:45:06,120 --> 02:45:07,959
Speaker 2: which is part of like why there was this kind

3239
02:45:07,959 --> 02:45:10,040
Speaker 2: of collective relief. But it's this idea that he's like

3240
02:45:10,120 --> 02:45:12,920
Speaker 2: the warrior monk, right. They love the idea that like, well,

3241
02:45:13,200 --> 02:45:15,560
Speaker 2: this guy who's president is a maniac, but this dude

3242
02:45:15,640 --> 02:45:18,360
Speaker 2: reads books that he hired so that it'll be okay,

3243
02:45:18,480 --> 02:45:20,080
Speaker 2: And it's never okay.

3244
02:45:20,280 --> 02:45:24,680
Speaker 3: You continue to lower the bar more and more. You're obvious,

3245
02:45:24,760 --> 02:45:27,040
Speaker 3: like the people that you're bringing back are part of

3246
02:45:27,120 --> 02:45:30,440
Speaker 3: a lower bar. But because the bar is even lower,

3247
02:45:30,800 --> 02:45:33,280
Speaker 3: it seems and feels a little higher. But it is

3248
02:45:33,440 --> 02:45:33,959
Speaker 3: all just.

3249
02:45:35,440 --> 02:45:40,039
Speaker 4: It's just this is exactly what happened with Colon Powell

3250
02:45:40,840 --> 02:45:42,840
Speaker 4: is sucking evil.

3251
02:45:43,000 --> 02:45:47,640
Speaker 15: We did the exactly evil Monsterson, Yeah, cover up fucking

3252
02:45:48,080 --> 02:45:52,120
Speaker 15: the massacres in fucking Vietnam. That's like when he started

3253
02:45:52,160 --> 02:45:55,440
Speaker 15: out like terrible human being. But the press did the

3254
02:45:55,560 --> 02:45:56,119
Speaker 15: same shit.

3255
02:45:56,680 --> 02:46:00,520
Speaker 2: If you can quote old books and smile and you're

3256
02:46:00,560 --> 02:46:03,400
Speaker 2: willing to give journalists time, they will talk about you

3257
02:46:03,480 --> 02:46:06,920
Speaker 2: as being the secret reasonable person within the war crimes party,

3258
02:46:07,120 --> 02:46:08,640
Speaker 2: you know, like that's all it takes.

3259
02:46:10,120 --> 02:46:10,560
Speaker 3: It's great.

3260
02:46:10,920 --> 02:46:12,760
Speaker 2: It's just the same thing as if you're a Nazi

3261
02:46:12,840 --> 02:46:16,280
Speaker 2: who reads books. You can get an archtyvee profile, yes

3262
02:46:16,760 --> 02:46:20,560
Speaker 2: or yeah, or you'll get on sixty minutes or whatever.

3263
02:46:20,680 --> 02:46:20,880
Speaker 1: You know.

3264
02:46:22,560 --> 02:46:25,360
Speaker 2: It's it's don't trust people who want you to think

3265
02:46:25,400 --> 02:46:28,879
Speaker 2: they're smart. Yep, that's never a good sign smart. It's

3266
02:46:28,879 --> 02:46:30,320
Speaker 2: the same thing. It's the same thing with like people

3267
02:46:30,320 --> 02:46:32,480
Speaker 2: who want you to believe they're dangerous. If they want

3268
02:46:32,520 --> 02:46:35,280
Speaker 2: you to believe something specific about them, they're lying about it.

3269
02:46:35,400 --> 02:46:36,320
Speaker 2: That's how people work.

3270
02:46:36,400 --> 02:46:39,440
Speaker 4: And and if if a doctor wants to get on

3271
02:46:39,560 --> 02:46:42,160
Speaker 4: the news to talk about COVID and be famous on

3272
02:46:42,240 --> 02:46:44,959
Speaker 4: the news, that's actually not a doctor you should listen.

3273
02:46:44,800 --> 02:46:45,680
Speaker 2: To and a great guy.

3274
02:46:45,920 --> 02:46:45,960
Speaker 9: No.

3275
02:46:46,200 --> 02:46:48,880
Speaker 3: Also, I mean it's you know, it's from the same

3276
02:46:49,400 --> 02:46:54,240
Speaker 3: publications and the same networks. The idea that you continue

3277
02:46:54,320 --> 02:46:58,240
Speaker 3: to listen to these sources about what is right and

3278
02:46:58,360 --> 02:47:01,600
Speaker 3: what is wrong just because they have fancy terms like

3279
02:47:01,760 --> 02:47:05,640
Speaker 3: senior policy advised. It's like it's all fucking it's it's

3280
02:47:05,720 --> 02:47:10,080
Speaker 3: days of our lives. It's they're actors. These are teleprompters. Yeah,

3281
02:47:10,160 --> 02:47:12,320
Speaker 3: and they don't know any more than you about anything

3282
02:47:12,400 --> 02:47:12,920
Speaker 3: that matters.

3283
02:47:13,000 --> 02:47:15,119
Speaker 2: As a general rule. Every now and then you get

3284
02:47:15,160 --> 02:47:17,560
Speaker 2: but like even like within agencies that are heavily like

3285
02:47:17,680 --> 02:47:20,160
Speaker 2: medical oriented, like the CDC, where you would expect them

3286
02:47:20,200 --> 02:47:22,720
Speaker 2: to have a lot of specialized knowledge, it doesn't necessarily

3287
02:47:22,760 --> 02:47:23,840
Speaker 2: mean they're going to do a good job.

3288
02:47:24,320 --> 02:47:29,879
Speaker 3: But I'll say that much times comfortably lied about Iraq.

3289
02:47:30,879 --> 02:47:34,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's not great. So during a transition from

3290
02:47:34,920 --> 02:47:38,200
Speaker 2: the Johnson to Nixon administration, US Military Command began to

3291
02:47:38,280 --> 02:47:41,160
Speaker 2: act under what General Creighton Abrams described as a total

3292
02:47:41,240 --> 02:47:45,320
Speaker 2: war mindset against the infrastructure of the Vietcong insurgency. This

3293
02:47:45,480 --> 02:47:48,200
Speaker 2: began with a six month operation to clear the Mekong Delta,

3294
02:47:48,360 --> 02:47:51,600
Speaker 2: code named Operation Speedy Express. This would prove to be

3295
02:47:51,640 --> 02:47:55,039
Speaker 2: the first major military operation that both Nixon and Kitschinger oversaw,

3296
02:47:55,320 --> 02:47:57,960
Speaker 2: and it was a titanic bloodlet bath. There is a

3297
02:47:58,040 --> 02:48:00,960
Speaker 2: good article on this operation in the Nation and the

3298
02:48:01,160 --> 02:48:04,400
Speaker 2: title of the article is A my lie A month.

3299
02:48:04,720 --> 02:48:05,840
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

3300
02:48:06,320 --> 02:48:09,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's it's oh my god.

3301
02:48:10,680 --> 02:48:12,880
Speaker 2: Now the Myli massacre had occurred in nineteen sixty eight,

3302
02:48:12,959 --> 02:48:14,960
Speaker 2: before Nickson he Kissinger were in power. You know that

3303
02:48:15,040 --> 02:48:17,200
Speaker 2: ain't on them, and Seymour Hirst didn't like break the

3304
02:48:17,240 --> 02:48:19,120
Speaker 2: story until sixty nine, which is the year that they

3305
02:48:19,160 --> 02:48:21,840
Speaker 2: come to power. And this slaughter of five hundred civilians

3306
02:48:21,879 --> 02:48:24,680
Speaker 2: by US troops was horrific enough, but within a few

3307
02:48:24,720 --> 02:48:28,280
Speaker 2: months of taking power, speedy express it exceeded it many times.

3308
02:48:28,680 --> 02:48:31,840
Speaker 2: Quote from the Nation, an inkling that something terrible had

3309
02:48:31,879 --> 02:48:33,920
Speaker 2: taken place in the Mekong Delta appeared in a most

3310
02:48:34,040 --> 02:48:38,000
Speaker 2: unlikely source, a formerly confidential September nineteen sixty nine senior

3311
02:48:38,080 --> 02:48:40,480
Speaker 2: officer debriefing report by none other than the commander of

3312
02:48:40,520 --> 02:48:43,800
Speaker 2: the Ninth Division, then Major General Julian Ewell, who came

3313
02:48:43,879 --> 02:48:46,200
Speaker 2: to be known inside the military as the Butcher of

3314
02:48:46,280 --> 02:48:49,280
Speaker 2: the Delta because of a single minded fixation on body count.

3315
02:48:49,640 --> 02:48:51,920
Speaker 2: In reports, copies of which were sent to west Moreland's

3316
02:48:51,959 --> 02:48:54,680
Speaker 2: office and to other high ranking officials, you will candidly

3317
02:48:54,760 --> 02:48:57,440
Speaker 2: noted that while the Ninth Division stressed the discriminate and

3318
02:48:57,520 --> 02:49:00,280
Speaker 2: selective use of firepower in some areas of the day Delta,

3319
02:49:00,520 --> 02:49:03,800
Speaker 2: where this emphasis wasn't applied or wasn't feasible, the countryside

3320
02:49:03,840 --> 02:49:06,959
Speaker 2: looked like the Verdun battlefields, the site of a notoriously

3321
02:49:07,040 --> 02:49:10,400
Speaker 2: bloody World War One battle. That December, a document produced

3322
02:49:10,400 --> 02:49:13,440
Speaker 2: by the National Liberation Front sharpened the picture. It reported

3323
02:49:13,480 --> 02:49:16,039
Speaker 2: that between December first, nineteen sixty eight and April first,

3324
02:49:16,120 --> 02:49:19,279
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, primarily in the Delta provinces of Kinhoua

3325
02:49:19,400 --> 02:49:22,520
Speaker 2: and Din Twog, the Ninth Division launched an express raid

3326
02:49:22,640 --> 02:49:26,120
Speaker 2: and mopped up many areas, slaughtering three thousand people, mostly

3327
02:49:26,240 --> 02:49:29,120
Speaker 2: old folks, women and children, and destroying thousands of houses,

3328
02:49:29,360 --> 02:49:31,959
Speaker 2: hundreds of hectares of fields and orchards. But like most

3329
02:49:32,080 --> 02:49:35,160
Speaker 2: NLF reports of civilian atrocities, this one was almost certainly

3330
02:49:35,200 --> 02:49:38,760
Speaker 2: dismissed as propaganda by US officials. A United Press International

3331
02:49:38,840 --> 02:49:41,760
Speaker 2: report that same months month, in which US advisors charged

3332
02:49:41,800 --> 02:49:43,560
Speaker 2: the division with having driven up the body count by

3333
02:49:43,600 --> 02:49:48,000
Speaker 2: killing civilians with helicopter gunships and artillery, was also largely ignored.

3334
02:49:49,160 --> 02:49:52,320
Speaker 2: And it's because they're saying they're soldiers, that they're shooting

3335
02:49:52,480 --> 02:49:53,400
Speaker 2: from a distance.

3336
02:49:53,280 --> 02:49:54,879
Speaker 3: And then they justied.

3337
02:49:54,920 --> 02:49:58,680
Speaker 4: Colin Pale justified it by saying, while they're providing food

3338
02:49:59,240 --> 02:50:01,240
Speaker 4: for the enemy, so there's no difference.

3339
02:50:01,959 --> 02:50:02,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3340
02:50:03,120 --> 02:50:05,560
Speaker 2: By the time Speedy Express comes to an end, US

3341
02:50:05,640 --> 02:50:08,400
Speaker 2: forces had killed more than ten thousand people. The vast

3342
02:50:08,480 --> 02:50:11,440
Speaker 2: majority of these were claimed to have been insurgent fighters,

3343
02:50:11,760 --> 02:50:14,440
Speaker 2: but extensive mop up after operations after the fact found

3344
02:50:14,520 --> 02:50:18,199
Speaker 2: less than eight hundred weapons on all these bodies they shared.

3345
02:50:18,320 --> 02:50:23,240
Speaker 3: That is fucking crazy. Yeah, I mean, like we can't

3346
02:50:23,280 --> 02:50:27,000
Speaker 3: even frame them competently now.

3347
02:50:27,720 --> 02:50:31,920
Speaker 5: And also, remember you're taking guys that you drafted.

3348
02:50:32,280 --> 02:50:35,280
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, right, yeah, right, you know to do this. Yeah,

3349
02:50:35,560 --> 02:50:37,480
Speaker 3: I mean, like you said with your uncle, I mean,

3350
02:50:37,560 --> 02:50:41,160
Speaker 3: it is it's like the generational ripple through that and

3351
02:50:41,280 --> 02:50:46,160
Speaker 3: the lifetime you know what it does really, I mean yeah,

3352
02:50:47,000 --> 02:50:50,199
Speaker 3: it's pretty beyond who dies, who doesn't live again?

3353
02:50:50,800 --> 02:50:53,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, And what you know, what do people

3354
02:50:54,040 --> 02:50:57,080
Speaker 2: take back with them now? It is fair and necessary

3355
02:50:57,120 --> 02:50:58,960
Speaker 2: to note that this began in the December before Nixon

3356
02:50:59,000 --> 02:51:01,160
Speaker 2: and Kissinger took office. This is not entirely on them.

3357
02:51:01,200 --> 02:51:02,760
Speaker 2: Some of the blame for this ghosts on the LBJA

3358
02:51:02,879 --> 02:51:06,920
Speaker 2: administration as well, obviously, but it continued under them. This paragraph,

3359
02:51:06,920 --> 02:51:09,240
Speaker 2: written by Christopher Hitchins, gives you some idea of the

3360
02:51:09,320 --> 02:51:11,440
Speaker 2: savagery of what occurred in the early days of the

3361
02:51:11,520 --> 02:51:15,440
Speaker 2: Nixon administration's control of the Vietnam War. The people who

3362
02:51:15,480 --> 02:51:18,600
Speaker 2: still live in pacified Kinhoa all have vivid recollections of

3363
02:51:18,640 --> 02:51:21,320
Speaker 2: the devastation that American firepower brought to their lives in

3364
02:51:21,360 --> 02:51:24,320
Speaker 2: early nineteen sixty nine. Virtually every person to whom I

3365
02:51:24,400 --> 02:51:26,920
Speaker 2: spoke had suffered in some way. There were five thousand

3366
02:51:26,920 --> 02:51:29,120
Speaker 2: people in our village before nineteen sixty nine, but there

3367
02:51:29,160 --> 02:51:30,640
Speaker 2: were none in nineteen seventy.

3368
02:51:30,800 --> 02:51:32,000
Speaker 3: One. Village elder told.

3369
02:51:31,920 --> 02:51:35,160
Speaker 2: Me the Americans destroyed every house with artillery airstrikes or

3370
02:51:35,200 --> 02:51:37,920
Speaker 2: by burning them down with cigarette lighters. About one hundred

3371
02:51:37,920 --> 02:51:40,080
Speaker 2: people were killed by bombing, others were wounded, and others

3372
02:51:40,120 --> 02:51:43,400
Speaker 2: became refugees. Many were children killed by concussion from the bombs,

3373
02:51:43,400 --> 02:51:45,760
Speaker 2: which their small bodies could not withstand, even if they

3374
02:51:45,800 --> 02:51:52,440
Speaker 2: were hiding underground. So Nixon's plan, at the beginning, you know,

3375
02:51:52,600 --> 02:51:55,480
Speaker 2: when his people had derailed the peace negotiations in sixty eight,

3376
02:51:55,600 --> 02:51:58,119
Speaker 2: was that he would win election and then make peace

3377
02:51:58,200 --> 02:52:01,080
Speaker 2: with Vietnam, right to do the thing that he promised

3378
02:52:01,080 --> 02:52:03,280
Speaker 2: to do. But it swiftly became clear that peace was

3379
02:52:03,320 --> 02:52:05,600
Speaker 2: a messy prospect. One of the things he's worried about

3380
02:52:05,680 --> 02:52:08,039
Speaker 2: is that, like, well, if we withdraw him with Vietnam,

3381
02:52:08,560 --> 02:52:11,680
Speaker 2: the Saigon government's probably going to fall, right because there

3382
02:52:12,160 --> 02:52:16,640
Speaker 2: we're just barely propping up this shitty dictatorship, and that'll

3383
02:52:16,680 --> 02:52:19,320
Speaker 2: be it will make me look weak, right, And so

3384
02:52:19,400 --> 02:52:21,000
Speaker 2: I can't do it because it'll make me look weak.

3385
02:52:21,080 --> 02:52:21,240
Speaker 11: Yeah.

3386
02:52:21,240 --> 02:52:25,680
Speaker 3: If you beer, that'll quit drink it. Yeah, And then

3387
02:52:25,680 --> 02:52:28,840
Speaker 3: I won't win reelection in nineteen seventy two. And that's unacceptable.

3388
02:52:28,920 --> 02:52:31,800
Speaker 3: I mean that, and that I mean obviously keeps going

3389
02:52:32,440 --> 02:52:35,040
Speaker 3: over and over again. It's you get into office and

3390
02:52:35,080 --> 02:52:37,200
Speaker 3: then you're like, well, what about re election instead of

3391
02:52:37,280 --> 02:52:38,800
Speaker 3: going like the best direction for.

3392
02:52:39,480 --> 02:52:41,320
Speaker 2: It is one of the few things I'll give Biden

3393
02:52:41,440 --> 02:52:44,160
Speaker 2: some credit for because he had the same calculus with Afghanistan.

3394
02:52:44,240 --> 02:52:45,880
Speaker 2: A lot of criticisms to make about the pull out

3395
02:52:45,879 --> 02:52:48,400
Speaker 2: from Afghanistan, but he did not make the same decision

3396
02:52:48,440 --> 02:52:51,240
Speaker 2: Nixon and Kissinger did. He did fucking get out. It

3397
02:52:51,280 --> 02:52:55,920
Speaker 2: wouldn't yeah, yeah, So withdrawing from Vietnam mean Saigon is

3398
02:52:55,959 --> 02:52:57,640
Speaker 2: going to fall. The government's going to fall, and that

3399
02:52:57,680 --> 02:52:59,640
Speaker 2: will be bad in the seventy two elections, and it

3400
02:52:59,760 --> 02:53:02,360
Speaker 2: might push Kissinger and Nixon out of power. Neither of

3401
02:53:02,440 --> 02:53:04,720
Speaker 2: them can accept this, and this description of a meeting

3402
02:53:04,760 --> 02:53:08,080
Speaker 2: from December nineteen seventy by H. R. Haldeman shows Kissinger's

3403
02:53:08,160 --> 02:53:10,960
Speaker 2: role in pulling back from peace. Kissinger came in and

3404
02:53:11,000 --> 02:53:13,680
Speaker 2: the discussion covered some of the general thinking about Vietnam

3405
02:53:13,800 --> 02:53:16,440
Speaker 2: and the president's big peace plan for the next year,

3406
02:53:16,640 --> 02:53:19,520
Speaker 2: with kissing, which Kissinger later told me he does not favor.

3407
02:53:19,840 --> 02:53:21,640
Speaker 2: He thinks that any pullout from next year would be

3408
02:53:21,680 --> 02:53:24,000
Speaker 2: a serious mistake because the adverse reaction to it could

3409
02:53:24,080 --> 02:53:26,880
Speaker 2: set in well before the seventy two elections. He favors

3410
02:53:26,920 --> 02:53:29,240
Speaker 2: instead of continued winding down and then a pull out

3411
02:53:29,320 --> 02:53:31,320
Speaker 2: right at the fall of seventy two, so that if

3412
02:53:31,360 --> 02:53:33,360
Speaker 2: any bad results follow, they will be too late to

3413
02:53:33,440 --> 02:53:34,560
Speaker 2: affect the election.

3414
02:53:35,040 --> 02:53:35,240
Speaker 1: Ah.

3415
02:53:35,680 --> 02:53:41,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's you know, that's what our wars always are.

3416
02:53:41,200 --> 02:53:44,240
Speaker 4: They're all about Yeah, they're all about elections. They fucking

3417
02:53:44,400 --> 02:53:50,400
Speaker 4: always are. It's you know, I mean, yeah, this led

3418
02:53:50,400 --> 02:53:53,160
Speaker 4: to Republicans thinking that, you know, they had to get

3419
02:53:53,240 --> 02:53:53,800
Speaker 4: war back on.

3420
02:53:53,879 --> 02:53:54,760
Speaker 3: Track at some point.

3421
02:53:54,959 --> 02:54:00,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, But it's you know, it's always it's never never works,

3422
02:54:00,959 --> 02:54:04,760
Speaker 4: like it's just such a crazy idea. And you also

3423
02:54:04,879 --> 02:54:07,400
Speaker 4: like people are watching body bags go home, Like no

3424
02:54:07,480 --> 02:54:09,160
Speaker 4: one's happy about anything that's going on.

3425
02:54:09,640 --> 02:54:13,240
Speaker 2: No, and it this they just kind of I mean

3426
02:54:13,320 --> 02:54:15,680
Speaker 2: this part of why it keeps going is, yeah, this

3427
02:54:15,840 --> 02:54:19,640
Speaker 2: kind of craven knowledge that like, well, the worst thing

3428
02:54:19,760 --> 02:54:21,520
Speaker 2: that could happen is we don't get reelected.

3429
02:54:21,879 --> 02:54:22,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3430
02:54:22,280 --> 02:54:24,000
Speaker 2: At no point is he thinking about any of the

3431
02:54:24,080 --> 02:54:27,440
Speaker 2: human beings involved, even any of the American human beings involved.

3432
02:54:27,520 --> 02:54:30,199
Speaker 2: It's just like, well, we can't be losing reelection.

3433
02:54:30,440 --> 02:54:33,560
Speaker 3: You know, imagine if Kissinger was damaged from his childhood,

3434
02:54:33,600 --> 02:54:38,280
Speaker 3: how bad things would get. It could be really bad.

3435
02:54:39,120 --> 02:54:41,800
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, actually, when we talk about the

3436
02:54:41,840 --> 02:54:45,080
Speaker 2: story of like American presidents making craven political decisions, one

3437
02:54:45,120 --> 02:54:48,320
Speaker 2: of the reasons FDR did not approve more effort being

3438
02:54:48,400 --> 02:54:51,000
Speaker 2: taken to evacuate Jewish refugees from Germany as he did

3439
02:54:51,080 --> 02:54:53,760
Speaker 2: not want to be seen as pro jew Oh Jesus

3440
02:54:53,840 --> 02:54:55,920
Speaker 2: the socialist policies and stuff that we're going through. He

3441
02:54:56,000 --> 02:54:57,879
Speaker 2: knew that that could hurt him. There were a number

3442
02:54:57,879 --> 02:54:59,760
Speaker 2: of other reasons, but like, yeah, they're like they did

3443
02:54:59,840 --> 02:55:02,400
Speaker 2: not that is like there is there were things that

3444
02:55:02,520 --> 02:55:05,560
Speaker 2: were done that led to the US government saving fewer

3445
02:55:05,640 --> 02:55:08,039
Speaker 2: Jewish people from the Holocaust that were done for craven

3446
02:55:08,120 --> 02:55:10,000
Speaker 2: political reasons by the FDR administration.

3447
02:55:10,160 --> 02:55:15,280
Speaker 3: Let me hear this Kaiser pitch again. It actually big hat.

3448
02:55:15,720 --> 02:55:19,080
Speaker 2: I learn the hat, biggest hat you've ever seen, big,

3449
02:55:19,280 --> 02:55:30,520
Speaker 2: very spiky now loves this mom's hands. But oh god.

3450
02:55:30,800 --> 02:55:34,040
Speaker 2: So the fun thing about this episode is that everything

3451
02:55:34,040 --> 02:55:35,600
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about in part three is even

3452
02:55:35,640 --> 02:55:37,600
Speaker 2: worse because in part three we're going to talk about

3453
02:55:37,640 --> 02:55:45,240
Speaker 2: fucking Cambodia. Soo y well, you guys want to plug

3454
02:55:45,240 --> 02:55:48,759
Speaker 2: anything after my ears three hours.

3455
02:55:48,800 --> 02:55:51,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm going to be I'm going to be in

3456
02:55:51,840 --> 02:55:54,760
Speaker 4: a toilet trying to get clean.

3457
02:55:55,080 --> 02:55:58,360
Speaker 3: After that, you can go to the Dollar Go to

3458
02:55:58,440 --> 02:56:02,360
Speaker 3: Dollar podcast dot com for two more information and my

3459
02:56:02,520 --> 02:56:05,960
Speaker 3: website Karen Reynolds dot com. I'm on tour, but not

3460
02:56:06,200 --> 02:56:09,200
Speaker 3: like tours of duty, just like stand up and podcast

3461
02:56:09,320 --> 02:56:13,200
Speaker 3: tours with the aim of bringing joint of people. I

3462
02:56:13,240 --> 02:56:16,959
Speaker 3: don't want to talk like that anymore. Dave, Dave, shit

3463
02:56:17,000 --> 02:56:19,240
Speaker 3: your fucking mouth and you can.

3464
02:56:19,320 --> 02:56:21,240
Speaker 5: Just listen to the last last time I saw you

3465
02:56:21,320 --> 02:56:23,119
Speaker 5: do a seay. You just fucking murdered the whole fucking

3466
02:56:23,120 --> 02:56:23,600
Speaker 5: shit your.

3467
02:56:23,560 --> 02:56:27,920
Speaker 3: Fucking face, like kill that crowd.

3468
02:56:28,360 --> 02:56:33,039
Speaker 2: You left unexploded ordnance in the crowded.

3469
02:56:31,840 --> 02:56:34,200
Speaker 3: Over should have been over fifteen minutes earlier.

3470
02:56:36,800 --> 02:56:39,800
Speaker 2: And like with unexploded ordinance in low forty percent of

3471
02:56:39,840 --> 02:56:42,279
Speaker 2: the people who loved your jokes after the set and we're.

3472
02:56:42,200 --> 02:56:44,360
Speaker 3: Children no more.

3473
02:56:44,560 --> 02:56:50,359
Speaker 9: There'll be no more relating. There'll be no more correlating. Yeah, anyway,

3474
02:56:51,040 --> 02:56:53,520
Speaker 9: that's part two. You got two more weeks of innardy kissing.

3475
02:56:53,560 --> 02:56:55,840
Speaker 9: You'r ahead of you, folks, to strap in gets a

3476
02:56:55,920 --> 02:56:59,080
Speaker 9: lot uglier. But also we'll be talking about his sex life.

3477
02:56:59,120 --> 02:57:02,440
Speaker 9: So you know, I was going to say something to

3478
02:57:02,520 --> 02:57:04,360
Speaker 9: look forward to, but like not really.

3479
02:57:05,200 --> 02:57:08,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, come back next week for more of the

3480
02:57:08,800 --> 02:57:10,680
Speaker 2: dick Sucking toilet Henry Kissinger.

3481
02:57:12,640 --> 02:57:13,640
Speaker 3: That's a pretty good title.

3482
02:57:15,840 --> 02:57:16,960
Speaker 2: Sophie's not happy with it.

3483
02:57:17,040 --> 02:57:19,640
Speaker 3: No, Sophie is not on board. I don't love it.

3484
02:57:20,000 --> 02:57:32,440
Speaker 3: But you know, all right, Oh I don't.

3485
02:57:33,440 --> 02:57:35,880
Speaker 2: How do I, Sophie, how do I introduce part three

3486
02:57:36,160 --> 02:57:37,520
Speaker 2: of the Kissinger series?

3487
02:57:38,200 --> 02:57:40,800
Speaker 3: You just did it? Gareth and David are right here,

3488
02:57:40,879 --> 02:57:43,400
Speaker 3: they're waiting for something good and I just I'm just

3489
02:57:43,560 --> 02:57:44,160
Speaker 3: I'm fucking it.

3490
02:57:44,240 --> 02:57:44,760
Speaker 2: Up, Sophie.

3491
02:57:45,120 --> 02:57:49,560
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, but you you accidentally introduced the podcast

3492
02:57:49,640 --> 02:57:50,400
Speaker 1: which is behind the.

3493
02:57:50,440 --> 02:57:54,720
Speaker 2: Bastards Behind the doll Ups doll Up the Bastard the

3494
02:57:54,800 --> 02:57:59,600
Speaker 2: Bastards hybrid podcast, and like all hybrids, it is incapable

3495
02:57:59,680 --> 02:58:04,520
Speaker 2: of procreating, but better at getting up steep mountain passes.

3496
02:58:05,040 --> 02:58:06,160
Speaker 3: It's getting a little goading.

3497
02:58:06,240 --> 02:58:11,480
Speaker 4: Now we can multiply by cell division, but not through

3498
02:58:12,160 --> 02:58:13,680
Speaker 4: sexual Yeah.

3499
02:58:14,280 --> 02:58:15,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've tried.

3500
02:58:15,360 --> 02:58:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have, we have. We're in that process.

3501
02:58:18,879 --> 02:58:19,360
Speaker 3: We tried.

3502
02:58:20,040 --> 02:58:23,720
Speaker 2: So since we last recorded a podcast, war has broken

3503
02:58:23,800 --> 02:58:24,680
Speaker 2: out and I was.

3504
02:58:24,760 --> 02:58:28,360
Speaker 3: Just thinking, mister in Europe, God, three days yeah, but

3505
02:58:28,480 --> 02:58:30,800
Speaker 3: we like ended it and then it was like, oh wow,

3506
02:58:30,879 --> 02:58:33,440
Speaker 3: it's happening, and now it feels like it's been two

3507
02:58:33,560 --> 02:58:36,120
Speaker 3: months since. Then had a brief conversation what do you

3508
02:58:36,160 --> 02:58:37,000
Speaker 3: think is going to happen?

3509
02:58:37,120 --> 02:58:40,400
Speaker 2: And then immediately checked our phones to be like, oh, okay,

3510
02:58:40,560 --> 02:58:45,800
Speaker 2: so they're shipping all over the place. Oh so, y'all

3511
02:58:45,959 --> 02:58:49,200
Speaker 2: are we ready to learn about Henry Kissinger and a

3512
02:58:49,280 --> 02:58:52,959
Speaker 2: little country you might have heard of called Cambodia, Oh god,

3513
02:58:53,360 --> 02:58:55,959
Speaker 2: and also a separate country you might have called Lao,

3514
02:58:56,520 --> 02:58:59,320
Speaker 2: and also Vietnam. Still so that energy, I.

3515
02:58:59,400 --> 02:59:01,320
Speaker 3: Am, let's go, let's do it.

3516
02:59:01,800 --> 02:59:02,039
Speaker 11: Yeah.

3517
02:59:02,560 --> 02:59:06,879
Speaker 2: So on February fourteenth, Valentine's Day, nineteen sixty five, President

3518
02:59:06,959 --> 02:59:11,040
Speaker 2: Lyndon B. Johnson approved Operation Rolling Thunder. This was a

3519
02:59:11,120 --> 02:59:14,440
Speaker 2: long term campaign of aerial bombing against North Vietnam. It's

3520
02:59:14,480 --> 02:59:16,560
Speaker 2: primary aims were to help them morale with the South

3521
02:59:16,640 --> 02:59:20,200
Speaker 2: Vietnamese and the Sikon government, to persuade North Vietnam to

3522
02:59:20,240 --> 02:59:22,520
Speaker 2: stop supporting the Viet Cong, and to destroy the North

3523
02:59:22,560 --> 02:59:25,760
Speaker 2: Vietnamese transportation infrastructure and industrial base so as to stop

3524
02:59:25,840 --> 02:59:26,720
Speaker 2: them from sending men.

3525
02:59:26,680 --> 02:59:30,320
Speaker 3: And equipment south. It did not succeed. As a spoiler,

3526
02:59:31,080 --> 02:59:32,840
Speaker 3: none of this, none of this works.

3527
02:59:33,760 --> 02:59:38,119
Speaker 4: Like it's just amazing that, like you have all this firepower,

3528
02:59:38,240 --> 02:59:41,400
Speaker 4: you have all these planes, and really you're talking about

3529
02:59:41,440 --> 02:59:45,039
Speaker 4: destroying like railroads and shipping.

3530
02:59:45,240 --> 02:59:47,720
Speaker 2: And like underground tunnels too. This is the ho Chiman Trail,

3531
02:59:47,800 --> 02:59:47,960
Speaker 2: you know.

3532
02:59:48,160 --> 02:59:49,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean is that what we're talking about,

3533
02:59:49,879 --> 02:59:50,600
Speaker 4: the Hochiman Trail?

3534
02:59:50,840 --> 02:59:53,880
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, And we're never going to do that. No.

3535
02:59:54,640 --> 02:59:56,600
Speaker 2: This is like a lesson that no one ever learns

3536
02:59:56,640 --> 02:59:58,840
Speaker 2: in warfare. Because you can also point to like the

3537
02:59:59,000 --> 03:00:01,800
Speaker 2: saturation bombing of Germany, which had a minimal effect on

3538
03:00:02,040 --> 03:00:04,760
Speaker 2: German industrial production. You can talk about like what's happening

3539
03:00:04,800 --> 03:00:06,959
Speaker 2: right now in Ukraine, which has not succeeded in its

3540
03:00:07,000 --> 03:00:09,920
Speaker 2: strategic games. You could talk about a number of wars

3541
03:00:09,959 --> 03:00:11,520
Speaker 2: the US has been involved, and you can talk about

3542
03:00:11,560 --> 03:00:14,080
Speaker 2: like World War One, where the British would drop a

3543
03:00:14,200 --> 03:00:16,480
Speaker 2: million shells in a couple of hours on a chunk

3544
03:00:16,480 --> 03:00:18,320
Speaker 2: of trench line and then all get killed by machine

3545
03:00:18,360 --> 03:00:22,320
Speaker 2: gun fire because the shells didn't do enough. Like military

3546
03:00:22,600 --> 03:00:24,600
Speaker 2: leaders always have this idea that we can just bomb

3547
03:00:24,640 --> 03:00:27,400
Speaker 2: our problems away and it just never really works.

3548
03:00:27,920 --> 03:00:30,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it doesn't. Yeah, you know what it does.

3549
03:00:31,280 --> 03:00:33,840
Speaker 3: It terrifies the civilian population.

3550
03:00:33,959 --> 03:00:37,160
Speaker 2: It sure does, yes, and it helps the Pentagon a lot.

3551
03:00:37,200 --> 03:00:39,080
Speaker 2: I think it does help the Pentagon. It makes money

3552
03:00:39,160 --> 03:00:41,279
Speaker 2: for people, so I guess to that extent it succeeds

3553
03:00:41,280 --> 03:00:43,720
Speaker 2: in its goal. And Operation Rolling Thunder did make some

3554
03:00:43,800 --> 03:00:46,800
Speaker 2: people a lot of money. It continued for three straight

3555
03:00:46,879 --> 03:00:49,879
Speaker 2: years until November of nineteen sixty eight. During this period,

3556
03:00:49,959 --> 03:00:52,360
Speaker 2: Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps planes through more than

3557
03:00:52,400 --> 03:00:54,880
Speaker 2: three hundred thousand attack sorties, which dropped more than eight

3558
03:00:55,000 --> 03:00:58,680
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty four thousand tons of bombs. For reference,

3559
03:00:58,720 --> 03:01:01,040
Speaker 2: the United States dropped half a million tons of bombs

3560
03:01:01,080 --> 03:01:04,920
Speaker 2: in the Pacific theater during all of World War two Christ. Yeah,

3561
03:01:05,080 --> 03:01:07,840
Speaker 2: it is hard to exaggerate the extent to which we

3562
03:01:07,920 --> 03:01:10,720
Speaker 2: bomb the shit out of North Vietnam to no notable effect.

3563
03:01:11,600 --> 03:01:14,240
Speaker 2: According to our trustworthy friends at the CIA, the raids

3564
03:01:14,280 --> 03:01:17,040
Speaker 2: did five hundred million dollars in damage, killed twenty one

3565
03:01:17,080 --> 03:01:19,760
Speaker 2: thousand people, and injured more than thirty thousand more. The

3566
03:01:19,920 --> 03:01:22,840
Speaker 2: CIA says that seventy five percent of all casualties were

3567
03:01:22,879 --> 03:01:27,000
Speaker 2: people involved in military operations. US government estimates, not by

3568
03:01:27,080 --> 03:01:30,879
Speaker 2: the CIA, however, estimate at least thirty thousand civilian fatalities.

3569
03:01:31,080 --> 03:01:33,920
Speaker 2: Other estimates placed the civilian death toll much higher, at

3570
03:01:33,959 --> 03:01:37,920
Speaker 2: close to two hundred thousand civilians, probably fair to say

3571
03:01:37,959 --> 03:01:40,920
Speaker 2: north of one hundred thousand. You know, a lot, a

3572
03:01:40,959 --> 03:01:45,280
Speaker 2: lot of folks. By the time Kissinger and Nixon took office,

3573
03:01:45,360 --> 03:01:47,960
Speaker 2: it was clear that Rolling Thunder had failed miserably. This

3574
03:01:48,120 --> 03:01:50,360
Speaker 2: was due in part to the existence of the Hochiman

3575
03:01:50,440 --> 03:01:53,119
Speaker 2: Trail in nineteen fifty nine, this is before US soldiers

3576
03:01:53,160 --> 03:01:56,120
Speaker 2: had officially entered the country. The trail had been created

3577
03:01:56,280 --> 03:01:59,160
Speaker 2: under order by the Loudong, which is the Communist Party

3578
03:01:59,200 --> 03:02:00,920
Speaker 2: of Vietnam, to aid them in what was at that

3579
03:02:01,000 --> 03:02:04,120
Speaker 2: point a building conflict with South Vietnam. At the start,

3580
03:02:04,200 --> 03:02:07,240
Speaker 2: it led across just the demilitarized zone into Quaisan and

3581
03:02:07,360 --> 03:02:10,840
Speaker 2: South Vietnam. Porters would carry boxes of ammunition and rifles

3582
03:02:10,920 --> 03:02:13,400
Speaker 2: on their body, which they would then hand to insurgents

3583
03:02:13,440 --> 03:02:16,000
Speaker 2: in the South. Over time, the trail was expanded to

3584
03:02:16,080 --> 03:02:19,480
Speaker 2: a vast underground transit network, more than twelve thousand miles

3585
03:02:19,560 --> 03:02:22,520
Speaker 2: in size, capable of moving more than ten thousand troops

3586
03:02:22,560 --> 03:02:25,480
Speaker 2: and thousands of trucks per year. As the fighting escalated,

3587
03:02:25,520 --> 03:02:28,000
Speaker 2: the trail veered into Lao, where the government was engaged

3588
03:02:28,040 --> 03:02:30,640
Speaker 2: fighting its own insurgency and unable to stop the transit

3589
03:02:30,680 --> 03:02:33,840
Speaker 2: of weapons. The Hochiman Trail allowed North Vietnam to smuggle

3590
03:02:33,879 --> 03:02:36,440
Speaker 2: equipment south and to evade the US naval blockade that

3591
03:02:36,520 --> 03:02:39,680
Speaker 2: sought to choke it out. Today, even Defense Department sources

3592
03:02:39,760 --> 03:02:42,800
Speaker 2: recognized it as one of the greatest logistical successes of

3593
03:02:42,879 --> 03:02:46,640
Speaker 2: twentieth century warfare. It works pretty good for this trail.

3594
03:02:46,879 --> 03:02:49,680
Speaker 3: It's amazing to think of the number of bombs you're

3595
03:02:49,800 --> 03:02:54,680
Speaker 3: talking about. And then they made a tunnel. Yeah, it

3596
03:02:54,800 --> 03:02:58,400
Speaker 3: turns out they dug a hole. Yeah, a really good haul.

3597
03:02:58,680 --> 03:03:03,080
Speaker 3: But it's like Chopak, it's not just a tunnel.

3598
03:03:03,120 --> 03:03:06,800
Speaker 4: It's in a jungle, like we're tying him out a

3599
03:03:06,920 --> 03:03:10,200
Speaker 4: very difficult sort of environment to make a tunnel.

3600
03:03:10,640 --> 03:03:14,600
Speaker 3: It's not that like it's incredible what they did. Yeah.

3601
03:03:15,280 --> 03:03:18,480
Speaker 2: So lbj's administration sent planes into Lao to bomb the

3602
03:03:18,560 --> 03:03:21,760
Speaker 2: trail and to escort Laochian planes while they bombed the trail.

3603
03:03:22,160 --> 03:03:24,960
Speaker 2: When US airmen were killed or captured over Lao, their

3604
03:03:25,000 --> 03:03:28,160
Speaker 2: families were told they'd gone down in Southeast Asia to

3605
03:03:28,320 --> 03:03:31,400
Speaker 2: allow LBJ to claim he'd abided by his nineteen sixty

3606
03:03:31,440 --> 03:03:34,760
Speaker 2: four election promise to avoid a wider war. Cambodia was

3607
03:03:34,800 --> 03:03:38,000
Speaker 2: bombed as well, but during lbj's administration, Lao was considered

3608
03:03:38,080 --> 03:03:40,280
Speaker 2: a more important target. They thought more stuff was getting

3609
03:03:40,280 --> 03:03:42,880
Speaker 2: into Vietnam through Lao. This changed in nineteen sixty eight,

3610
03:03:43,200 --> 03:03:45,080
Speaker 2: when the Tet Offensive made it clear that that North

3611
03:03:45,120 --> 03:03:47,440
Speaker 2: Vietnam had gotten very good at running troops in and

3612
03:03:47,480 --> 03:03:50,440
Speaker 2: out of Cambodia. Johnson hadn't been willing to escalate the

3613
03:03:50,480 --> 03:03:53,240
Speaker 2: bombing campaign against a neutral country, though, especially since again

3614
03:03:53,280 --> 03:03:55,000
Speaker 2: there was this big election going on and he was

3615
03:03:55,120 --> 03:03:58,080
Speaker 2: kind of having his vice president run on the promise

3616
03:03:58,160 --> 03:03:59,720
Speaker 2: that like we're really going to end this thing. So

3617
03:03:59,760 --> 03:04:03,199
Speaker 2: you know LBJ when he's trying to tease North Vietnam

3618
03:04:03,240 --> 03:04:06,359
Speaker 2: with a bombing halt, isn't gonna just start laying into Cambodia.

3619
03:04:06,640 --> 03:04:08,720
Speaker 2: Right In the spring of nineteen sixty nine, after you know,

3620
03:04:08,840 --> 03:04:12,200
Speaker 2: Kissinger and Nixon took office, they approved the expanded use

3621
03:04:12,240 --> 03:04:14,959
Speaker 2: of US special forces in Lao along with a campaign

3622
03:04:15,000 --> 03:04:19,120
Speaker 2: of sustained air strikes. This was called Operation Steel Tiger.

3623
03:04:20,480 --> 03:04:26,320
Speaker 2: All of these so, I mean, the stupidest names. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we.

3624
03:04:26,480 --> 03:04:29,040
Speaker 3: I mean we the marketing that we have gone for

3625
03:04:29,280 --> 03:04:32,360
Speaker 3: in this country for so long has been so absurd.

3626
03:04:32,840 --> 03:04:35,720
Speaker 4: Steel Tiger, well, I mean they're just taking y and

3627
03:04:35,800 --> 03:04:37,280
Speaker 4: T album names at this point.

3628
03:04:37,560 --> 03:04:45,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, if only they'd gone with like Prince Operation Purple Rain.

3629
03:04:45,120 --> 03:04:51,400
Speaker 2: But it's likely the folianth that gives everyone cancer. So

3630
03:04:52,440 --> 03:04:55,560
Speaker 2: I should note here that all secret operations carried out

3631
03:04:55,600 --> 03:04:58,520
Speaker 2: by any US forces anywhere in the world during the

3632
03:04:58,640 --> 03:05:03,080
Speaker 2: Nixon administration were approved personally by Henry Kissinger. Henry was

3633
03:05:03,120 --> 03:05:06,520
Speaker 2: the chairman of something called the forty committ Hell oh

3634
03:05:06,640 --> 03:05:11,680
Speaker 2: sorrys This was a semi secret body that had been

3635
03:05:11,720 --> 03:05:15,439
Speaker 2: set up to provide management and oversight to CIA covert operations.

3636
03:05:15,920 --> 03:05:17,800
Speaker 2: The committee was made up of members of the National

3637
03:05:17,840 --> 03:05:20,680
Speaker 2: Security Council. They concerned themselves regularly with the question of

3638
03:05:20,760 --> 03:05:23,600
Speaker 2: how to stop weapons from flowing into Vietnam. By this point,

3639
03:05:23,720 --> 03:05:26,040
Speaker 2: trails ran through parts of Flow and Cambodia, but also

3640
03:05:26,120 --> 03:05:29,320
Speaker 2: from the Vietnam Chinese border. So Kissinger is the head

3641
03:05:29,320 --> 03:05:31,240
Speaker 2: of this committee. Considers a number of ways to stop

3642
03:05:31,280 --> 03:05:34,400
Speaker 2: weapons from getting into new or from getting into North Vietnam,

3643
03:05:34,720 --> 03:05:38,520
Speaker 2: including the use of thermonuclear weapons to annihilate the rail

3644
03:05:38,560 --> 03:05:43,000
Speaker 2: waste between North Vietnam and China Jesus out of its

3645
03:05:43,240 --> 03:05:46,560
Speaker 2: entire damn mind, and to be fair, is nuts enough

3646
03:05:46,600 --> 03:05:49,680
Speaker 2: that even Kissinger is like, no, that's a little too far.

3647
03:05:53,480 --> 03:05:56,720
Speaker 2: He also considered bombing the dikes that kept North Vietnam's

3648
03:05:56,720 --> 03:05:59,880
Speaker 2: irrigation system from flooding all of its fields. Both of

3649
03:06:00,040 --> 03:06:03,240
Speaker 2: these would have been war crimes on a Titanic scale. Thankfully,

3650
03:06:03,320 --> 03:06:05,840
Speaker 2: Kassinger declined to do either in favor of a completely

3651
03:06:05,879 --> 03:06:07,000
Speaker 2: different set of war crimes.

3652
03:06:07,200 --> 03:06:11,480
Speaker 3: So that's good, that's nice. Yeah, don't let's do a

3653
03:06:11,560 --> 03:06:12,119
Speaker 3: different thing.

3654
03:06:12,320 --> 03:06:15,160
Speaker 2: He decides which war crimes to commit, like we decide

3655
03:06:15,200 --> 03:06:16,920
Speaker 2: like jeans or sweatpants in the morning.

3656
03:06:17,760 --> 03:06:19,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that would go really well. With

3657
03:06:19,760 --> 03:06:21,640
Speaker 3: what we're doing. Now that a really tie the whole

3658
03:06:21,680 --> 03:06:25,320
Speaker 3: thing together. Yeah, it's quite a life.

3659
03:06:25,640 --> 03:06:28,400
Speaker 2: So immediately after taking office, Henry helps his new boss

3660
03:06:28,440 --> 03:06:32,040
Speaker 2: put together a menu of bombardment targets in Cambodia. This

3661
03:06:32,160 --> 03:06:34,160
Speaker 2: is literally called Operation Menu.

3662
03:06:35,120 --> 03:06:45,720
Speaker 10: Now, yeah, what before some great ideas to tip your bombardier.

3663
03:06:47,920 --> 03:06:48,160
Speaker 3: Get this?

3664
03:06:49,320 --> 03:06:52,440
Speaker 2: That was That's what I don't know. I actually don't

3665
03:06:52,440 --> 03:06:54,240
Speaker 2: recall off the top of my head which bombing operation

3666
03:06:54,360 --> 03:06:56,480
Speaker 2: McCain was involved in. But there's a good there's a

3667
03:06:56,480 --> 03:06:58,800
Speaker 2: good tip joke to be made there. Somebody will figure

3668
03:06:58,800 --> 03:07:02,000
Speaker 2: it out. Well people do in post. Yeah, we'll figure

3669
03:07:02,000 --> 03:07:05,840
Speaker 2: it out. Different parts of Operation Menu had code names.

3670
03:07:05,879 --> 03:07:11,160
Speaker 2: Different targets had code names like breakfast, lunch, certain.

3671
03:07:11,160 --> 03:07:15,480
Speaker 3: What I mean? It is one thing to be like

3672
03:07:16,200 --> 03:07:20,960
Speaker 3: so sadistic, and it's just another thing to tie it into.

3673
03:07:22,000 --> 03:07:27,440
Speaker 3: Wanted to try brunch. Yeah, we're going back to brunch

3674
03:07:27,560 --> 03:07:29,280
Speaker 3: finally under the watchful.

3675
03:07:33,720 --> 03:07:37,360
Speaker 4: So slaughter can be fun, like you can find fun.

3676
03:07:37,760 --> 03:07:40,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you should got to love what you do, Dave,

3677
03:07:40,959 --> 03:07:42,920
Speaker 2: otherwise you're just going to feel like work, you know.

3678
03:07:43,640 --> 03:07:43,720
Speaker 1: Ye.

3679
03:07:47,160 --> 03:07:49,920
Speaker 2: So, before they began this series of bombings, the Joint

3680
03:07:49,959 --> 03:07:52,200
Speaker 2: chiefs of Staff they warned the White House quote, some

3681
03:07:52,400 --> 03:07:57,160
Speaker 2: Cambodian casualties would be sustained in the operation. Surprise effectiveness

3682
03:07:57,560 --> 03:08:01,040
Speaker 2: would tend to increase casualties. So they're like the fact

3683
03:08:01,040 --> 03:08:02,720
Speaker 2: that we're not warning anyone and that we're keeping this

3684
03:08:02,800 --> 03:08:05,280
Speaker 2: a secret means more civilians will die. Like, heads up,

3685
03:08:06,000 --> 03:08:08,640
Speaker 2: so you know what you're doing. This is what's going

3686
03:08:08,680 --> 03:08:09,080
Speaker 2: to happen.

3687
03:08:10,200 --> 03:08:10,320
Speaker 1: Now.

3688
03:08:10,400 --> 03:08:12,920
Speaker 2: As they approached the question of bombing Cambodia a Kissinger

3689
03:08:12,959 --> 03:08:15,359
Speaker 2: and Nixon had a choice. They could either tell Congress

3690
03:08:15,840 --> 03:08:17,680
Speaker 2: or they could hide what they were doing and use

3691
03:08:17,720 --> 03:08:20,720
Speaker 2: the presidential power over the Armed Services to appropriate funds

3692
03:08:20,760 --> 03:08:22,640
Speaker 2: from other places in order to carry out the bombing

3693
03:08:22,680 --> 03:08:25,680
Speaker 2: and secret. Nixon had been elected with Kissinger's help in

3694
03:08:25,760 --> 03:08:28,560
Speaker 2: part due to the LBJA administration's failure to end the war.

3695
03:08:29,000 --> 03:08:30,960
Speaker 2: He didn't want to go into nineteen seventy two's re

3696
03:08:31,080 --> 03:08:34,040
Speaker 2: election campaign having to defend the fact that he expanded it.

3697
03:08:34,600 --> 03:08:38,040
Speaker 2: Henry Kissinger worked with colonels Alexander Haig and Race Sitten

3698
03:08:38,080 --> 03:08:40,199
Speaker 2: to figure it away for the president to direct bombing

3699
03:08:40,280 --> 03:08:43,000
Speaker 2: operations in a private manner. And I'm going to quote

3700
03:08:43,000 --> 03:08:47,359
Speaker 2: from Kissinger's Shadow by Greg Grandon Sitton based on recommendations

3701
03:08:47,360 --> 03:08:50,119
Speaker 2: he received from General Creighton Abrams, the commander of military

3702
03:08:50,160 --> 03:08:52,760
Speaker 2: operations in Vietnam, would work up a number of targets

3703
03:08:52,800 --> 03:08:54,880
Speaker 2: in Cambodia to be struck. Then he would bring them

3704
03:08:54,879 --> 03:08:56,840
Speaker 2: to Kissinger and Hague in the White House for approval.

3705
03:08:57,120 --> 03:08:59,840
Speaker 2: Kissinger was very hands on revising some of Sitten's work.

3706
03:09:00,160 --> 03:09:01,760
Speaker 2: I don't know what he was using as his reason

3707
03:09:01,840 --> 03:09:04,879
Speaker 2: for varying them. Sitting later recalled strike here in this area,

3708
03:09:05,000 --> 03:09:07,440
Speaker 2: Kissinger would tell him or strike there in that area.

3709
03:09:07,920 --> 03:09:10,840
Speaker 2: Once Kissinger was satisfied with the proposed target, Sittin would

3710
03:09:10,840 --> 03:09:13,320
Speaker 2: back channel the coordinates to Saigon, and from there a

3711
03:09:13,400 --> 03:09:16,039
Speaker 2: courier would pass them on to the appropriate radar stations,

3712
03:09:16,240 --> 03:09:18,680
Speaker 2: where an officer would make a last minute switch. The

3713
03:09:18,720 --> 03:09:21,000
Speaker 2: B fifty two would be diverted from its cover target

3714
03:09:21,080 --> 03:09:23,800
Speaker 2: in South Vietnam into Cambodia, where it would drop its

3715
03:09:23,840 --> 03:09:26,600
Speaker 2: bomb load on the real target. When the run was complete,

3716
03:09:26,640 --> 03:09:29,760
Speaker 2: the officer in charge of the deception would burn whatever documents, maps,

3717
03:09:29,800 --> 03:09:32,720
Speaker 2: computer printouts, radar reports, messages, and so on that might

3718
03:09:32,800 --> 03:09:35,360
Speaker 2: reveal the actual flight. Then he would write up false

3719
03:09:35,440 --> 03:09:38,400
Speaker 2: post strike paperwork indicating that the South Vietnam sortie was

3720
03:09:38,440 --> 03:09:39,240
Speaker 2: flown as planned.

3721
03:09:39,600 --> 03:09:42,800
Speaker 3: It's so much work. Yeah, reminds me of when I

3722
03:09:42,920 --> 03:09:45,800
Speaker 3: used to skip school, that like the lengths I would

3723
03:09:45,840 --> 03:09:49,120
Speaker 3: go to to get away with cutting class, and like

3724
03:09:49,440 --> 03:09:51,360
Speaker 3: the point would be made always to me, like if

3725
03:09:51,360 --> 03:09:55,440
Speaker 3: you put this focus towards studying, you'd probably you'd spend

3726
03:09:55,520 --> 03:09:58,160
Speaker 3: less time and it would be more effective. But instead

3727
03:09:58,240 --> 03:10:01,200
Speaker 3: you just waste so much. Instead of just stopping, you

3728
03:10:01,720 --> 03:10:05,120
Speaker 3: do all this gymnastics just to continue the thing that

3729
03:10:05,400 --> 03:10:08,480
Speaker 3: is the problem, that makes the problem compound.

3730
03:10:08,800 --> 03:10:11,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's they really are are going through a lot

3731
03:10:11,680 --> 03:10:15,080
Speaker 2: of work to illegally bomb a neutral country to look

3732
03:10:15,200 --> 03:10:17,400
Speaker 2: like they're not bombing. Yeah, to look like they're not.

3733
03:10:18,440 --> 03:10:20,880
Speaker 2: It's gaslighting, you know, this is that's what That's what

3734
03:10:21,000 --> 03:10:21,800
Speaker 2: this is kissing.

3735
03:10:22,160 --> 03:10:22,320
Speaker 11: You know.

3736
03:10:23,200 --> 03:10:24,640
Speaker 2: We're finally going to get him canceled.

3737
03:10:24,680 --> 03:10:30,039
Speaker 3: This is going to be what it would be. Imagine

3738
03:10:31,000 --> 03:10:31,879
Speaker 3: a Canceler book.

3739
03:10:32,480 --> 03:10:36,679
Speaker 4: We're gonna do Kissinger on Hannibal Burst did to Cosby.

3740
03:10:36,520 --> 03:10:40,200
Speaker 3: Oh man, come on, come on.

3741
03:10:42,600 --> 03:10:46,680
Speaker 2: So you know, obviously this is very illegal. There's a

3742
03:10:46,760 --> 03:10:48,200
Speaker 2: lot of and there's a lot of parts of it

3743
03:10:48,320 --> 03:10:50,879
Speaker 2: that are illegal. For example, the military has a chain

3744
03:10:50,920 --> 03:10:53,920
Speaker 2: of command and Sitton was bypassing his bosses in the

3745
03:10:53,959 --> 03:10:56,160
Speaker 2: Department of Defense, because he's just a colonel, right, Like

3746
03:10:56,280 --> 03:10:58,920
Speaker 2: colonels don't get to that's not there, Like you're not

3747
03:10:59,040 --> 03:11:02,080
Speaker 2: at that level, right, So he is he is bypassing

3748
03:11:02,360 --> 03:11:06,279
Speaker 2: the normal chain of command in order to directly orchestrate

3749
03:11:06,280 --> 03:11:08,680
Speaker 2: an a legal bombing campaign with the White House and

3750
03:11:08,800 --> 03:11:11,680
Speaker 2: kind of cutting out a chunk of the Pentagon sitting

3751
03:11:11,720 --> 03:11:13,280
Speaker 2: knew at the time that it was weird to cut

3752
03:11:13,320 --> 03:11:16,000
Speaker 2: his commanding officers out and report directly to Henry Kissinger.

3753
03:11:16,280 --> 03:11:18,600
Speaker 2: He later recalled, I kind of felt I was way

3754
03:11:18,640 --> 03:11:20,440
Speaker 2: out on a limb and skating on some pretty thin

3755
03:11:20,480 --> 03:11:22,280
Speaker 2: ice with all my trips to the West basement of

3756
03:11:22,320 --> 03:11:25,000
Speaker 2: the White House where he's meeting with Yeah.

3757
03:11:25,080 --> 03:11:29,320
Speaker 4: I mean yeah, like, yeah, I'm going to a secret basement, Yeah,

3758
03:11:30,400 --> 03:11:33,160
Speaker 4: to talk about bombing, Like maybe maybe this isn't how

3759
03:11:33,200 --> 03:11:34,160
Speaker 4: it's supposed to be done.

3760
03:11:34,600 --> 03:11:40,359
Speaker 3: Him seem like a democracy I feel like we shouldn't

3761
03:11:40,400 --> 03:11:43,200
Speaker 3: be doing things like this in a basement. I can't

3762
03:11:43,240 --> 03:11:48,959
Speaker 3: come to secret democracy basement. Yeah. Yeah. The people voted

3763
03:11:49,040 --> 03:11:52,200
Speaker 3: for this basement. A knock, so I know it's you.

3764
03:11:53,000 --> 03:11:54,840
Speaker 2: I noted here that they kind of cut out a

3765
03:11:54,959 --> 03:11:58,280
Speaker 2: large chunk of like the military command apparatus to do this,

3766
03:11:58,560 --> 03:12:00,600
Speaker 2: which doesn't mean that those guys were against what they

3767
03:12:00,680 --> 03:12:03,240
Speaker 2: were doing. And in fact, all of Sitton's superiors knew

3768
03:12:03,280 --> 03:12:05,400
Speaker 2: what he was doing. They just didn't want to be

3769
03:12:05,520 --> 03:12:07,880
Speaker 2: involved because again, it was a crime, you know.

3770
03:12:08,320 --> 03:12:10,800
Speaker 3: Like so they so they're like they're down with the

3771
03:12:10,840 --> 03:12:13,520
Speaker 3: cutout because they're just like, yeah, you do it.

3772
03:12:13,800 --> 03:12:15,039
Speaker 2: I don't want my name on this shit.

3773
03:12:15,280 --> 03:12:17,880
Speaker 3: It's crazy, but go with it for sure. Yeah I

3774
03:12:18,000 --> 03:12:20,120
Speaker 3: love it. Yeah we love it. Give me out of

3775
03:12:20,120 --> 03:12:20,480
Speaker 3: the loop.

3776
03:12:20,560 --> 03:12:23,359
Speaker 2: But yeah, they didn't know about the bombing f Cambodia

3777
03:12:23,440 --> 03:12:26,960
Speaker 2: the same way. I have never known a pot dealer, right,

3778
03:12:29,040 --> 03:12:31,320
Speaker 2: So Sitting would regularly like, I don't know. I'm not

3779
03:12:31,320 --> 03:12:32,800
Speaker 2: going to say this is to his credit, but he

3780
03:12:32,959 --> 03:12:34,840
Speaker 2: was like this is weird, and he would go he did,

3781
03:12:34,920 --> 03:12:36,960
Speaker 2: on a couple of occasions go to his superiors and

3782
03:12:37,080 --> 03:12:38,160
Speaker 2: was like, are.

3783
03:12:38,200 --> 03:12:39,280
Speaker 3: You okay with this?

3784
03:12:39,920 --> 03:12:43,280
Speaker 2: And his exact phrase about what they responded was just

3785
03:12:43,520 --> 03:12:45,280
Speaker 2: do just what you're doing. When you get a call

3786
03:12:45,360 --> 03:12:47,000
Speaker 2: to go to the White House, go because you don't

3787
03:12:47,040 --> 03:12:47,879
Speaker 2: really have a choice.

3788
03:12:48,240 --> 03:12:49,280
Speaker 3: Just great, Oh my god.

3789
03:12:49,400 --> 03:12:53,519
Speaker 4: It's so it's it's straight out of the show snowfall.

3790
03:12:53,680 --> 03:12:57,200
Speaker 4: Like it's just like this shit just happens all the time. Yeah,

3791
03:12:57,320 --> 03:12:59,440
Speaker 4: this is what happened with Iran. Contract was the same,

3792
03:12:59,560 --> 03:13:03,480
Speaker 4: fucking know. Yeah, it's all crimes. And it's worth noting that,

3793
03:13:03,600 --> 03:13:06,360
Speaker 4: like the United States is going to war with a

3794
03:13:06,480 --> 03:13:09,360
Speaker 4: neutral country in secret under the personal direction of a

3795
03:13:09,400 --> 03:13:11,640
Speaker 4: guy who several months ago had been a Harvard professor

3796
03:13:11,800 --> 03:13:14,600
Speaker 4: like Kissinger is not even a year distant from being

3797
03:13:14,640 --> 03:13:17,440
Speaker 4: a fucking teacher this and now he is orchestrating a

3798
03:13:17,520 --> 03:13:20,600
Speaker 4: secret war in Cambodia. I mean, and like, I love

3799
03:13:20,680 --> 03:13:24,240
Speaker 4: the I love the beginning thing where you said there's

3800
03:13:24,440 --> 03:13:26,840
Speaker 4: like a guy whose job it is to pick targets,

3801
03:13:26,879 --> 03:13:30,200
Speaker 4: and he's picking targets and Nick guessn't just taking them

3802
03:13:30,240 --> 03:13:32,800
Speaker 4: maps and going No, I like most bomb here, like

3803
03:13:33,080 --> 03:13:35,480
Speaker 4: just totally random. He doesn't have any fucking idea what

3804
03:13:35,520 --> 03:13:37,760
Speaker 4: he's doing. He's just like that hill looks like it

3805
03:13:37,800 --> 03:13:38,480
Speaker 4: should go away.

3806
03:13:39,120 --> 03:13:42,240
Speaker 2: He has not even begun to micromanage this, this war

3807
03:13:42,360 --> 03:13:47,960
Speaker 2: crime day. So the purpose of this illegal bombing campaign

3808
03:13:48,080 --> 03:13:50,240
Speaker 2: was not just to stop the movement of Vietnamese troops

3809
03:13:50,280 --> 03:13:53,520
Speaker 2: and materiel. It also it also pleaded a role in

3810
03:13:53,600 --> 03:13:58,119
Speaker 2: advancing what Nixon called his Madman theory. Now, the President

3811
03:13:58,200 --> 03:14:00,920
Speaker 2: had shared this with close confidence to the nineteen sixty

3812
03:14:00,959 --> 03:14:03,400
Speaker 2: eight election. He told his future chief of staff that

3813
03:14:03,600 --> 03:14:06,520
Speaker 2: in order to negotiate an into the war with favorable terms,

3814
03:14:06,800 --> 03:14:08,920
Speaker 2: he felt he had to make the North Vietnamese quote,

3815
03:14:09,160 --> 03:14:11,440
Speaker 2: believe I've reached a point where I might do anything

3816
03:14:11,520 --> 03:14:13,680
Speaker 2: to stop the war. We'll just slip the word to

3817
03:14:13,720 --> 03:14:16,080
Speaker 2: them that, for God's sake, you know, Nixon is obsessed

3818
03:14:16,080 --> 03:14:18,440
Speaker 2: about communists. We can't restrain him when he's angry, and

3819
03:14:18,520 --> 03:14:20,320
Speaker 2: he has his hand on the nuclear button. And Ho

3820
03:14:20,480 --> 03:14:22,480
Speaker 2: Chi Minh himself will be in Paris in two days

3821
03:14:22,520 --> 03:14:24,320
Speaker 2: begging for peace, which is.

3822
03:14:24,440 --> 03:14:27,000
Speaker 3: Like the idea someone's like, so you want us to

3823
03:14:27,120 --> 03:14:30,720
Speaker 3: try to convey that you're crazy? Okay, that seems I

3824
03:14:30,760 --> 03:14:33,360
Speaker 3: think it's coming across her. Honestly, I think that's already

3825
03:14:34,400 --> 03:14:35,760
Speaker 3: baked into this whole thing a little bit.

3826
03:14:35,879 --> 03:14:38,520
Speaker 2: It's also very funny that, like they are trying to

3827
03:14:38,680 --> 03:14:40,920
Speaker 2: scare Ho Chi Minh, who at this point is fighting

3828
03:14:41,000 --> 03:14:44,280
Speaker 2: his second winning war against a major world power with

3829
03:14:44,560 --> 03:14:48,240
Speaker 2: like a very very small number of people, you know,

3830
03:14:48,520 --> 03:14:51,320
Speaker 2: Like no, North Vietnam not a big country compared to

3831
03:14:51,400 --> 03:14:56,800
Speaker 2: say the French imperial forces or the United States. He's

3832
03:14:56,840 --> 03:14:58,640
Speaker 2: not a kind of you're not going to scare ho

3833
03:14:58,840 --> 03:14:59,240
Speaker 2: Chi minh.

3834
03:14:59,440 --> 03:15:01,600
Speaker 3: Right, he's not. He's not a guy who gets spooked.

3835
03:15:01,840 --> 03:15:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3836
03:15:02,120 --> 03:15:03,000
Speaker 3: No, it's over.

3837
03:15:03,440 --> 03:15:05,560
Speaker 5: That's just absolutely not happening at this point.

3838
03:15:05,760 --> 03:15:06,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3839
03:15:06,200 --> 03:15:09,720
Speaker 2: Now, Kissinger either believed in his boss's plan or understood

3840
03:15:09,760 --> 03:15:12,200
Speaker 2: that he had to play along. Greg Grandon argues that

3841
03:15:12,320 --> 03:15:14,880
Speaker 2: Nixon's mad Man theory was actually just an extension of

3842
03:15:14,920 --> 03:15:17,600
Speaker 2: the foreign policy arguments that Kissinger himself had been making

3843
03:15:17,680 --> 03:15:21,080
Speaker 2: for years. Quote toughness after all was a late motif

3844
03:15:21,160 --> 03:15:23,720
Speaker 2: that run ran through much of his state craft, the

3845
03:15:23,800 --> 03:15:26,520
Speaker 2: idea that war and diplomacy are inseparable, and that to

3846
03:15:26,600 --> 03:15:29,040
Speaker 2: be effective, diplomats need to be able to punish and

3847
03:15:29,080 --> 03:15:32,240
Speaker 2: persuade an equal unrestricted measure. In fact, the mad Man

3848
03:15:32,360 --> 03:15:35,080
Speaker 2: theory was an extension of Kissinger's philosophy of the deed

3849
03:15:35,440 --> 03:15:37,960
Speaker 2: that power wasn't power unless one was willing to use it,

3850
03:15:38,200 --> 03:15:40,680
Speaker 2: that the purpose of action was to neutralize the inertia

3851
03:15:40,800 --> 03:15:41,280
Speaker 2: of an action.

3852
03:15:42,879 --> 03:15:45,720
Speaker 3: I mean it like it's not I mean it's not

3853
03:15:45,760 --> 03:15:49,480
Speaker 3: a double down. It's like it's eighteen double downs. But

3854
03:15:49,680 --> 03:15:54,200
Speaker 3: at some point you just I at least in my

3855
03:15:54,400 --> 03:15:58,040
Speaker 3: lifetime had a moment where I did believe that there

3856
03:15:58,720 --> 03:16:01,200
Speaker 3: there were people who were who would like point out

3857
03:16:01,400 --> 03:16:04,320
Speaker 3: the crazy shit. And the more you learn, the more

3858
03:16:04,360 --> 03:16:06,360
Speaker 3: you go, No, there's just there's not They are just

3859
03:16:06,480 --> 03:16:08,680
Speaker 3: all like it's like a bunch of junkies figuring out

3860
03:16:08,720 --> 03:16:11,800
Speaker 3: how to get more junk. Yeah, I mean, it's just

3861
03:16:11,920 --> 03:16:14,039
Speaker 3: like it's just how do you get through the day.

3862
03:16:14,200 --> 03:16:16,119
Speaker 3: It's not long term anything. Yep.

3863
03:16:16,280 --> 03:16:19,720
Speaker 2: You know, there's a degree to which and this is

3864
03:16:19,800 --> 03:16:21,640
Speaker 2: like one of the things that's most frustrating about this

3865
03:16:22,160 --> 03:16:24,760
Speaker 2: part of how this always gets justified is there's legitimate

3866
03:16:24,840 --> 03:16:27,800
Speaker 2: logic in that, Yeah, Hitler gobbled up a bunch of

3867
03:16:27,879 --> 03:16:31,240
Speaker 2: little chunks of Western Europe and nobody stopped him, and

3868
03:16:31,400 --> 03:16:34,240
Speaker 2: they should have, like something should have been done, like

3869
03:16:34,360 --> 03:16:36,959
Speaker 2: when he decided to take Czechoslovakia, you know, or during

3870
03:16:36,959 --> 03:16:40,360
Speaker 2: the Angelis there's certainly you know, like there, and they

3871
03:16:40,480 --> 03:16:42,520
Speaker 2: take this logic of like, yeah, if you have this

3872
03:16:42,760 --> 03:16:46,640
Speaker 2: like massive militarized nation gobbling up its neighbors, you can't

3873
03:16:46,760 --> 03:16:50,199
Speaker 2: just necessarily do nothing. And they applied that to like, well, okay,

3874
03:16:50,240 --> 03:16:53,160
Speaker 2: we've got a bomb Cambodia. Because some dudes are hiking

3875
03:16:53,240 --> 03:16:55,880
Speaker 2: through it with guns on their back, like Chamberlain.

3876
03:16:55,959 --> 03:17:00,480
Speaker 3: Nonsense escalation. Chamberlain also is always in play there too,

3877
03:17:00,520 --> 03:17:03,160
Speaker 3: because it's like everyone's like, you know, want to be Chamberlain.

3878
03:17:03,280 --> 03:17:06,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're appeasing North Vietnam if we don't drop more

3879
03:17:06,520 --> 03:17:08,600
Speaker 2: bombs than we're dropped in all of World War Two

3880
03:17:08,680 --> 03:17:09,400
Speaker 2: on Cambodia.

3881
03:17:09,680 --> 03:17:10,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have Cambodia.

3882
03:17:10,959 --> 03:17:16,879
Speaker 2: It's this nonsense escalation of logic, of historical logic that's

3883
03:17:16,959 --> 03:17:19,039
Speaker 2: like like someday Nixon's just gonna look in the mirror

3884
03:17:19,040 --> 03:17:21,680
Speaker 2: and be like, sometimes I think I'm I'm just fighting

3885
03:17:21,720 --> 03:17:25,680
Speaker 2: a war inside of myself. There actually are some quotes

3886
03:17:25,680 --> 03:17:28,000
Speaker 2: from Kissinger that aren't all that far off here.

3887
03:17:36,640 --> 03:17:37,160
Speaker 3: We're back.

3888
03:17:37,280 --> 03:17:40,840
Speaker 2: So the first bombing mission in this operation was launched

3889
03:17:40,879 --> 03:17:45,560
Speaker 2: on March eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine. Kissinger was in conversation

3890
03:17:45,720 --> 03:17:47,640
Speaker 2: at the time when he was interrupted with a note

3891
03:17:47,720 --> 03:17:49,680
Speaker 2: telling him that the bombing run had been a success.

3892
03:17:50,080 --> 03:17:52,520
Speaker 2: He smiled and then sent the information on to the President.

3893
03:17:52,800 --> 03:17:56,959
Speaker 2: Nixon's chief of staff, later recalled historic day. Kissinger really excited.

3894
03:17:57,040 --> 03:18:00,360
Speaker 2: He came in beaming with the report. Now, it was

3895
03:18:00,480 --> 03:18:02,480
Speaker 2: noted by people who are around the White House that

3896
03:18:02,600 --> 03:18:06,280
Speaker 2: nick that Kissinger seem to enjoy quote playing the bombadier

3897
03:18:06,560 --> 03:18:10,640
Speaker 2: taking great pains to direct the destruction. Seymour Hirsch wrote

3898
03:18:10,680 --> 03:18:13,760
Speaker 2: that quote. When the military men presented a proposed bombing list,

3899
03:18:13,879 --> 03:18:17,160
Speaker 2: Kissinger would redesign the missions, shifting a dozen planes, perhaps

3900
03:18:17,240 --> 03:18:19,680
Speaker 2: from one area to another, and altering the timing of

3901
03:18:19,760 --> 03:18:20,600
Speaker 2: the bombing runs.

3902
03:18:21,680 --> 03:18:22,120
Speaker 3: And it does.

3903
03:18:22,280 --> 03:18:26,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess no fucking expertise in this area, absolutely none.

3904
03:18:27,040 --> 03:18:30,320
Speaker 2: He's a fucking nerd who reads books like you don't

3905
03:18:30,320 --> 03:18:32,080
Speaker 2: know anything about what to bomb, Henry.

3906
03:18:32,480 --> 03:18:34,520
Speaker 4: It's like me showing up at a hospital and being like,

3907
03:18:34,560 --> 03:18:37,120
Speaker 4: all right, give me this surgical schedule. I need to

3908
03:18:37,160 --> 03:18:40,320
Speaker 4: start to working these surgeries and getting them in order

3909
03:18:40,600 --> 03:18:45,320
Speaker 4: like that. Yeah, it's fucking crazy, it is. I mean,

3910
03:18:45,959 --> 03:18:47,560
Speaker 4: this is there's a human impulse here, right.

3911
03:18:47,560 --> 03:18:49,560
Speaker 2: We're seeing it in Ukraine where all these like random

3912
03:18:49,640 --> 03:18:51,880
Speaker 2: people are being like, here's how you disable a tank,

3913
03:18:51,920 --> 03:18:53,680
Speaker 2: and it's like, you've never disabled a tank. You don't

3914
03:18:53,680 --> 03:18:55,480
Speaker 2: know what the fuck you're talking about. Like you're not

3915
03:18:55,520 --> 03:18:58,360
Speaker 2: gonna like throwing paint on it isn't going to stop it.

3916
03:18:58,560 --> 03:19:00,600
Speaker 2: You're going to get people killed. If any one's stupid

3917
03:19:00,680 --> 03:19:02,840
Speaker 2: enough to listen to you shut up. It just like

3918
03:19:03,160 --> 03:19:06,200
Speaker 2: Kissinger is actually in a power to really do that.

3919
03:19:06,440 --> 03:19:08,600
Speaker 2: And there's this I don't know what it is. I

3920
03:19:08,640 --> 03:19:10,800
Speaker 2: don't know what it is that makes some people certain

3921
03:19:10,879 --> 03:19:13,200
Speaker 2: that like they know how to prosecute an entire war

3922
03:19:13,640 --> 03:19:16,640
Speaker 2: based on their experience reading a lot of books at

3923
03:19:16,680 --> 03:19:17,480
Speaker 2: a school.

3924
03:19:17,600 --> 03:19:19,760
Speaker 3: And there's and there's. It doesn't sound like there's anybody

3925
03:19:19,800 --> 03:19:21,720
Speaker 3: who's going like, no, that doesn't make any sense. Is

3926
03:19:21,800 --> 03:19:24,960
Speaker 3: this out of its mind? Yeah? Yeah, it's just like

3927
03:19:25,360 --> 03:19:27,560
Speaker 3: it is. It's just people being like, okay, sure.

3928
03:19:27,600 --> 03:19:31,120
Speaker 2: Because there's a lot Obviously, the the unrestricted drone warfare

3929
03:19:31,280 --> 03:19:35,280
Speaker 2: that that escalated during the Obama administration and continued at

3930
03:19:35,280 --> 03:19:38,440
Speaker 2: an even higher pace under Trump is indefensible morally, but

3931
03:19:38,600 --> 03:19:40,520
Speaker 2: also the way that it tended to work was like

3932
03:19:40,560 --> 03:19:43,039
Speaker 2: you would get, you know, these guys with the administration

3933
03:19:43,160 --> 03:19:44,880
Speaker 2: at whichever one it was, would say like, these are

3934
03:19:44,920 --> 03:19:47,800
Speaker 2: the things we are we are going to target with drones,

3935
03:19:48,120 --> 03:19:50,360
Speaker 2: and then the military would bring them like, well, here

3936
03:19:50,400 --> 03:19:52,360
Speaker 2: are the different options for strikes that we have, and

3937
03:19:52,400 --> 03:19:55,240
Speaker 2: they would like pick which one to do. Kissinger is

3938
03:19:55,680 --> 03:19:59,120
Speaker 2: literally taking the maps from them, erasing their plans, and

3939
03:19:59,240 --> 03:20:02,200
Speaker 2: like writing in his his own, which is like.

3940
03:20:02,360 --> 03:20:04,640
Speaker 3: Like a it's a coach and it's someone in the

3941
03:20:04,720 --> 03:20:07,400
Speaker 3: huddle with an actually with coach k he's drawing a

3942
03:20:07,440 --> 03:20:09,880
Speaker 3: plan on a whiteboard and then a fan just scribbles

3943
03:20:09,920 --> 03:20:11,600
Speaker 3: it out and like rubs it all down with his arm.

3944
03:20:11,600 --> 03:20:13,960
Speaker 3: And then he's like, instead, I don't we all run

3945
03:20:14,080 --> 03:20:15,520
Speaker 3: up the court at the same time, and then we

3946
03:20:15,760 --> 03:20:18,000
Speaker 3: passed the battle bunch. Try to do it. That would

3947
03:20:18,160 --> 03:20:19,480
Speaker 3: make someone head the butt into the.

3948
03:20:20,080 --> 03:20:24,040
Speaker 4: It's it's I think, yeah, I'm just upset because I

3949
03:20:24,200 --> 03:20:25,600
Speaker 4: bought forty gallons of paint.

3950
03:20:25,879 --> 03:20:28,440
Speaker 2: Because you were going to try to knock out a

3951
03:20:28,480 --> 03:20:29,400
Speaker 2: couple of tanks.

3952
03:20:29,680 --> 03:20:32,640
Speaker 3: Tank war, and now the whole fucking thing shot.

3953
03:20:32,840 --> 03:20:37,039
Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, there are some things paint is good

3954
03:20:37,080 --> 03:20:40,000
Speaker 2: at when it comes to conflict. There were some very

3955
03:20:40,080 --> 03:20:42,240
Speaker 2: funny moments in one of the big HUD fights we

3956
03:20:42,320 --> 03:20:44,680
Speaker 2: had up in Portland, where kids filled a fire extinguisher

3957
03:20:44,760 --> 03:20:47,720
Speaker 2: with paint and like ruined thousands of dollars in tactical gear.

3958
03:20:48,120 --> 03:20:49,640
Speaker 4: That was that was good.

3959
03:20:50,160 --> 03:20:50,440
Speaker 6: Wow.

3960
03:20:52,320 --> 03:20:54,920
Speaker 2: Look, it's not to say that amateurs never have good ideas,

3961
03:20:55,040 --> 03:20:59,400
Speaker 2: but they were not amateurs at that point though.

3962
03:20:59,440 --> 03:20:59,800
Speaker 3: Those kids.

3963
03:21:00,000 --> 03:21:02,480
Speaker 2: I've been finding those proud boys for a minute, so

3964
03:21:03,080 --> 03:21:06,800
Speaker 2: Kissinger's extraordinary degree of control over the situation was possible

3965
03:21:06,840 --> 03:21:10,240
Speaker 2: because he had literally reformed the entire national security apparatus

3966
03:21:10,280 --> 03:21:13,720
Speaker 2: around himself. Nixon wanted a buffer from his own secretary

3967
03:21:13,760 --> 03:21:16,560
Speaker 2: of State, which provided Henry with the opportunity to take

3968
03:21:16,600 --> 03:21:19,879
Speaker 2: as much power and centralize it around the National Security Advisor.

3969
03:21:20,360 --> 03:21:21,720
Speaker 2: And he could do this as long as he kept

3970
03:21:21,800 --> 03:21:25,600
Speaker 2: Nixon happy. Under Kissinger, the National Security Council, which he headed,

3971
03:21:25,840 --> 03:21:29,440
Speaker 2: became the center of US foreign policy, a massive bureaucracy

3972
03:21:29,520 --> 03:21:33,680
Speaker 2: fed piles of information embassy cables, intelligence reports, etc. Straight

3973
03:21:33,720 --> 03:21:37,520
Speaker 2: to Henry Kissinger. He decided, he's again, Henry is where

3974
03:21:37,640 --> 03:21:40,600
Speaker 2: all of the information from this vast apparatus that the

3975
03:21:40,720 --> 03:21:42,880
Speaker 2: US has to gather information right the eyes and ears

3976
03:21:42,920 --> 03:21:44,680
Speaker 2: of the president, you know, all of the things that

3977
03:21:44,760 --> 03:21:47,720
Speaker 2: are supposed to provide the president with information. All of

3978
03:21:47,760 --> 03:21:50,960
Speaker 2: that comes directly to Henry, and he decides what to

3979
03:21:51,000 --> 03:21:51,680
Speaker 2: give the president.

3980
03:21:51,800 --> 03:21:55,640
Speaker 3: And he was a teacher, and he was a year before.

3981
03:21:55,920 --> 03:21:58,400
Speaker 2: He was a guy whose primary claim to fame before

3982
03:21:58,480 --> 03:22:00,680
Speaker 2: this was we need more new we don't have enough

3983
03:22:00,720 --> 03:22:05,480
Speaker 2: fucking nukes, and also we should use them. Whenever it's

3984
03:22:05,800 --> 03:22:08,400
Speaker 2: I was just watching there's a great documentary called Commanded Control.

3985
03:22:08,520 --> 03:22:10,800
Speaker 2: That's about a nuclear disaster in the US in nineteen

3986
03:22:10,840 --> 03:22:12,520
Speaker 2: eighty that nearly killed half of the people on the

3987
03:22:12,560 --> 03:22:15,560
Speaker 2: East Coast. That enough folks don't know about. A guy

3988
03:22:15,640 --> 03:22:18,760
Speaker 2: accidentally dropped a bolt and it ignited part of a

3989
03:22:18,840 --> 03:22:22,200
Speaker 2: nuclear missile and it nearly killed everyone on the East seyboard. Yeah,

3990
03:22:22,240 --> 03:22:22,400
Speaker 2: it was.

3991
03:22:22,520 --> 03:22:24,080
Speaker 3: It was a big old It was a big kerfuffle.

3992
03:22:25,680 --> 03:22:29,840
Speaker 3: And say so the guys there's a profile and the thing.

3993
03:22:30,440 --> 03:22:32,160
Speaker 2: That's nuts about it. But one of the things that

3994
03:22:32,240 --> 03:22:34,520
Speaker 2: pointed out I think we have Sophie can google this

3995
03:22:34,600 --> 03:22:36,200
Speaker 2: for me. I think we have about six thousand nuclear

3996
03:22:36,240 --> 03:22:38,000
Speaker 2: weapons right now, which is way too many.

3997
03:22:38,440 --> 03:22:41,800
Speaker 4: But as a result we have yeah, we have the

3998
03:22:42,720 --> 03:22:45,840
Speaker 4: Soviet Russia is around six thousand. We have around forty

3999
03:22:45,840 --> 03:22:46,320
Speaker 4: eight hundred.

4000
03:22:46,360 --> 03:22:49,200
Speaker 2: I think forty eight hundred, So that's too much. Both

4001
03:22:49,240 --> 03:22:51,000
Speaker 2: countries have too many nukes. I think we can all

4002
03:22:51,240 --> 03:22:51,920
Speaker 2: say that's fair.

4003
03:22:52,320 --> 03:22:53,880
Speaker 3: It's a lot. I'm not sign enough on that.

4004
03:22:54,160 --> 03:22:56,920
Speaker 2: As a result, in part of Kissingers, we have a

4005
03:22:57,000 --> 03:22:58,720
Speaker 2: missile gap and we need to build more. By this

4006
03:22:58,800 --> 03:23:01,039
Speaker 2: point in the mid sixties, there are thirty two thousand

4007
03:23:01,120 --> 03:23:02,560
Speaker 2: nuclear weapons in the United States.

4008
03:23:03,280 --> 03:23:07,400
Speaker 3: It is that's even an aside because it's like a

4009
03:23:07,520 --> 03:23:09,920
Speaker 3: Kardashian with shoes. Yeah.

4010
03:23:10,040 --> 03:23:14,039
Speaker 4: I feel my thing has always been every every person

4011
03:23:14,040 --> 03:23:16,840
Speaker 4: who owns property should be allowed to have a nuke.

4012
03:23:16,800 --> 03:23:17,560
Speaker 3: Your own nuke.

4013
03:23:18,280 --> 03:23:21,040
Speaker 2: Look, I think you can all agree, you know what,

4014
03:23:21,200 --> 03:23:23,480
Speaker 2: you know what there wouldn't be if everyone had a nuke. Dave,

4015
03:23:23,920 --> 03:23:25,279
Speaker 2: no knock raids by the cops.

4016
03:23:25,440 --> 03:23:25,920
Speaker 3: That's true.

4017
03:23:25,959 --> 03:23:27,320
Speaker 2: You're not gonna have any of that shit.

4018
03:23:28,160 --> 03:23:32,800
Speaker 3: They're gonna be busted down doors. Yeah, come on, guys,

4019
03:23:32,840 --> 03:23:36,119
Speaker 3: are fine doors of mesole.

4020
03:23:39,080 --> 03:23:42,720
Speaker 2: Real different situation are the cops if everybody's got a nuke?

4021
03:23:42,800 --> 03:23:44,840
Speaker 3: Other problems though there would there would be some other

4022
03:23:44,959 --> 03:23:47,040
Speaker 3: problems I don't seem Yeah.

4023
03:23:48,320 --> 03:23:52,800
Speaker 2: So anyway, Kissinger is the the Kissinger is effectively turned

4024
03:23:52,840 --> 03:23:55,920
Speaker 2: himself into the eyes and ears of the United States

4025
03:23:56,000 --> 03:23:57,080
Speaker 2: military applats.

4026
03:23:57,200 --> 03:23:59,560
Speaker 3: He decides what it's great.

4027
03:24:00,400 --> 03:24:03,080
Speaker 2: You can argue he's one of the two or three

4028
03:24:03,160 --> 03:24:05,920
Speaker 2: most powerful people who's ever lived at this point. An

4029
03:24:06,040 --> 03:24:10,360
Speaker 2: argument could be made so Marvin and Bernard Kolb, who

4030
03:24:10,400 --> 03:24:13,440
Speaker 2: were both diplomats at this point, describe what Henry builds

4031
03:24:13,480 --> 03:24:15,480
Speaker 2: here as Henry's wonderful machine.

4032
03:24:15,680 --> 03:24:15,960
Speaker 3: Quote.

4033
03:24:16,240 --> 03:24:23,199
Speaker 2: Since Kissinger, I know, Willy Wonka mister Magoriam's nuclear emporium.

4034
03:24:25,120 --> 03:24:28,720
Speaker 2: Since Kissinger controlled the system, he controlled the decision making process.

4035
03:24:28,800 --> 03:24:31,920
Speaker 2: Everyone reports to Kissinger and only Kissinger reports to the president.

4036
03:24:32,560 --> 03:24:35,760
Speaker 2: This set up allowed Henry to micromanage bombing campaigns, over order,

4037
03:24:35,879 --> 03:24:38,879
Speaker 2: covert arms deals, and engage in secret diplomacy at will.

4038
03:24:39,160 --> 03:24:42,000
Speaker 2: He was not merely executing the president's orders. He himself

4039
03:24:42,120 --> 03:24:44,840
Speaker 2: was free to make national policy as long as Nixon

4040
03:24:44,920 --> 03:24:48,880
Speaker 2: was happy with him. From Kissinger's shadow quote, Kissinger, according

4041
03:24:48,920 --> 03:24:52,400
Speaker 2: to Marvin and Bernard kaulb knew almost instinctively that he

4042
03:24:52,440 --> 03:24:54,840
Speaker 2: would be able to control the bureaucracy and thus help

4043
03:24:54,920 --> 03:24:57,959
Speaker 2: reorder American diplomacy, only to the degree that he became

4044
03:24:58,080 --> 03:25:01,680
Speaker 2: indistinguishable from the President and his policies. Rogers at State

4045
03:25:01,800 --> 03:25:04,360
Speaker 2: was opposed to the idea of escalating the war into Cambodia.

4046
03:25:04,600 --> 03:25:06,480
Speaker 2: Laired at the Pentagon was for it, but thought it

4047
03:25:06,600 --> 03:25:08,959
Speaker 2: needed to be done above board, legally and publicly through

4048
03:25:08,959 --> 03:25:11,560
Speaker 2: the normal chain of command. This gave Kissinger an opening,

4049
03:25:11,800 --> 03:25:14,840
Speaker 2: letting him stake out in naplus ultra position. He wanted

4050
03:25:14,879 --> 03:25:16,560
Speaker 2: to bomb. He wanted to bomb in a way that

4051
03:25:16,680 --> 03:25:18,920
Speaker 2: inflicted the most pain, and he wanted to bomb an

4052
03:25:19,040 --> 03:25:23,280
Speaker 2: absolute secrecy, completely off the books. As a result, every

4053
03:25:23,360 --> 03:25:26,160
Speaker 2: war crime committed by the United States during the Nition administration,

4054
03:25:26,720 --> 03:25:31,560
Speaker 2: every bad thing US forces do, particularly under the ages

4055
03:25:31,600 --> 03:25:34,959
Speaker 2: of special operations at least right has to be considered

4056
03:25:35,000 --> 03:25:37,760
Speaker 2: one of Henry Kissinger's crimes because it is his job

4057
03:25:37,879 --> 03:25:40,880
Speaker 2: to personally sign off on all of them, and he

4058
03:25:41,040 --> 03:25:43,800
Speaker 2: is He is not just a rubber stamper. He is

4059
03:25:44,480 --> 03:25:47,800
Speaker 2: actively pushing for things. So we are going into very

4060
03:25:47,840 --> 03:25:50,520
Speaker 2: specific detail about one specific crime. If you find a

4061
03:25:50,560 --> 03:25:54,760
Speaker 2: bad thing that that US, the CIA or Special Forces

4062
03:25:55,000 --> 03:25:57,720
Speaker 2: did from nineteen sixty nine to nineteen seventy three, Henry

4063
03:25:57,800 --> 03:26:01,440
Speaker 2: Kissinger gave that the old thumbs up. Again, We're gonna

4064
03:26:01,480 --> 03:26:02,320
Speaker 2: have to leave out a lot.

4065
03:26:03,120 --> 03:26:07,360
Speaker 3: It doesn't even sound like it's I mean, it's like

4066
03:26:07,520 --> 03:26:10,520
Speaker 3: ego based. Yeah, it's it's not even I mean there's

4067
03:26:10,640 --> 03:26:13,880
Speaker 3: there's there's so little actual. It just shows you, like

4068
03:26:13,959 --> 03:26:16,480
Speaker 3: what happens when you're in a bubble. Yeah, but I mean,

4069
03:26:17,040 --> 03:26:20,200
Speaker 3: I just don't think most people would would be capable

4070
03:26:20,240 --> 03:26:22,760
Speaker 3: of this. But it's it is. It's just like it's

4071
03:26:22,840 --> 03:26:26,360
Speaker 3: not really for anything other than he is just feels

4072
03:26:26,400 --> 03:26:28,680
Speaker 3: great being at the helm of this and it's an

4073
03:26:28,720 --> 03:26:30,439
Speaker 3: extremely powerful position.

4074
03:26:30,360 --> 03:26:33,560
Speaker 2: And it's such a bad idea, Like if you proceed

4075
03:26:33,879 --> 03:26:35,680
Speaker 2: like a moment, get ourselves in the headspace. If someone

4076
03:26:35,720 --> 03:26:38,560
Speaker 2: who thinks all of this is morally justified, it's a

4077
03:26:38,600 --> 03:26:42,480
Speaker 2: bad idea because a person can't competently manage all.

4078
03:26:42,400 --> 03:26:46,120
Speaker 3: Of this, right they would, right, they would be like, look,

4079
03:26:46,160 --> 03:26:48,480
Speaker 3: I need help. I mean, we're doing what we're going

4080
03:26:48,520 --> 03:26:53,000
Speaker 3: to do, like a reasonable warlord would be like delegated, rational,

4081
03:26:54,120 --> 03:26:57,160
Speaker 3: level headed, Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah.

4082
03:26:58,040 --> 03:27:00,800
Speaker 2: So when he was signing off on bombing, Kissinger poured

4083
03:27:00,840 --> 03:27:04,320
Speaker 2: over raw intelligence documents, which included information on exactly, in

4084
03:27:04,400 --> 03:27:07,680
Speaker 2: many cases, down to the number how many civilians lived

4085
03:27:07,720 --> 03:27:11,720
Speaker 2: in a certain target area. Now, sometimes it was a

4086
03:27:11,760 --> 03:27:14,199
Speaker 2: little bit less specific in this. For example, Area seven

4087
03:27:14,280 --> 03:27:18,320
Speaker 2: oh four, which had quote sizable concentrations of civilians, didn't

4088
03:27:18,320 --> 03:27:20,480
Speaker 2: have an exact number, but was bobbed two hundred and

4089
03:27:20,560 --> 03:27:23,879
Speaker 2: forty seven times on Henry Kissinger's orders. And since we're

4090
03:27:23,879 --> 03:27:25,600
Speaker 2: going to be talking a lot about bombing, we should

4091
03:27:25,600 --> 03:27:27,840
Speaker 2: discuss exactly what that mint in this case. Because all

4092
03:27:27,879 --> 03:27:31,360
Speaker 2: bombings are not created equal. The bombings Kissinger directed were

4093
03:27:31,400 --> 03:27:34,600
Speaker 2: carried out by B fifty two bombers. These are massive plans.

4094
03:27:34,640 --> 03:27:36,920
Speaker 2: These are like the size of the big international commercial

4095
03:27:36,959 --> 03:27:40,279
Speaker 2: aircraft roughly right. These are not like fighter jets and stuff.

4096
03:27:41,120 --> 03:27:43,480
Speaker 2: These fly too high to be seen from the ground,

4097
03:27:43,800 --> 03:27:47,200
Speaker 2: and they are incapable of meaningful discrimination between civilian and

4098
03:27:47,280 --> 03:27:50,320
Speaker 2: military targets. This is not an era in which there's

4099
03:27:50,600 --> 03:27:52,320
Speaker 2: much at all in the way of precision guided bombing,

4100
03:27:52,520 --> 03:27:55,440
Speaker 2: And with a B fifty two you cannot even attempt precision.

4101
03:27:55,680 --> 03:27:59,000
Speaker 2: You are dropping explosives blindly from like a mile up.

4102
03:27:59,440 --> 03:28:00,920
Speaker 2: I want to quot now from a write up by

4103
03:28:01,000 --> 03:28:04,640
Speaker 2: Taylor Owen and Ben Kiernan for Yale quote, A single

4104
03:28:04,720 --> 03:28:07,440
Speaker 2: B fifty two D big belly payload consists of up

4105
03:28:07,440 --> 03:28:09,440
Speaker 2: to one hundred and eight two hundred and twenty five

4106
03:28:09,520 --> 03:28:12,920
Speaker 2: kilogram or forty two three hundred and forty kilogram bombs,

4107
03:28:13,040 --> 03:28:15,440
Speaker 2: which are dropped in a target area of approximately five

4108
03:28:15,560 --> 03:28:18,880
Speaker 2: hundred by fifteen hundred meters. In many cases, Cambodian villages

4109
03:28:18,879 --> 03:28:21,000
Speaker 2: were hit with dozens of payloads over the course of

4110
03:28:21,080 --> 03:28:24,360
Speaker 2: several hours. The result was near total destruction. When US

4111
03:28:24,400 --> 03:28:26,560
Speaker 2: officials stated at the time, we had been told, as

4112
03:28:26,640 --> 03:28:29,040
Speaker 2: had everybody, that those carpet bombing attacks by B fifty

4113
03:28:29,040 --> 03:28:31,840
Speaker 2: twos were totally devastating that nothing could survive.

4114
03:28:32,160 --> 03:28:34,160
Speaker 3: It's like a sturgeon with eggs.

4115
03:28:34,920 --> 03:28:39,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is just completely indiscriminate. Yeah,

4116
03:28:40,400 --> 03:28:43,640
Speaker 2: one Cambodian survivor, because people did live. As we've stated,

4117
03:28:43,680 --> 03:28:45,960
Speaker 2: these are never as good at killing people as the

4118
03:28:46,040 --> 03:28:48,720
Speaker 2: military likes to claim, which is not to minimize the horror.

4119
03:28:48,800 --> 03:28:52,800
Speaker 2: It's just like it's also not it doesn't work except

4120
03:28:52,840 --> 03:28:56,000
Speaker 2: I mean, one Cambodian survivor of US bombing described it

4121
03:28:56,080 --> 03:28:59,640
Speaker 2: this way. Three f one on ones bombed right center

4122
03:28:59,680 --> 03:29:02,120
Speaker 2: of my village, killing eleven of my family members. My

4123
03:29:02,240 --> 03:29:04,440
Speaker 2: father was wounded but survived. At that time, there was

4124
03:29:04,480 --> 03:29:06,120
Speaker 2: not a single soldier in the village or in the

4125
03:29:06,160 --> 03:29:09,280
Speaker 2: area around the village. Twenty seven other villages were also killed.

4126
03:29:09,440 --> 03:29:11,160
Speaker 2: They had to run into a ditch to hide, and

4127
03:29:11,200 --> 03:29:12,760
Speaker 2: then two bombs fell right into it.

4128
03:29:13,440 --> 03:29:21,200
Speaker 3: Oh for fucks, Yeah, it is. Yeah. You cannot you

4129
03:29:21,280 --> 03:29:25,760
Speaker 3: cannot exaggerate the extint to which this is indiscriminate. Yeah,

4130
03:29:25,879 --> 03:29:28,520
Speaker 3: it's just total madness on top of madness. Yeah, I mean,

4131
03:29:28,640 --> 03:29:30,199
Speaker 3: there's no Yeah.

4132
03:29:30,320 --> 03:29:35,279
Speaker 2: People are rightly furious about like bombing in Ukrainian cities

4133
03:29:35,360 --> 03:29:37,960
Speaker 2: right now. What the United States is doing in Cambodia

4134
03:29:38,600 --> 03:29:45,480
Speaker 2: is eliminating grid squares on a map of all life, like, yeah, which.

4135
03:29:45,320 --> 03:29:47,400
Speaker 5: Is a country that has nothing to fucking do.

4136
03:29:47,879 --> 03:29:50,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, some d these are walking through it, you know,

4137
03:29:50,400 --> 03:29:53,119
Speaker 2: like it's cop logic, where like, well, a guy who

4138
03:29:53,240 --> 03:29:55,040
Speaker 2: stole a car was seeing in this neighborhood, so we

4139
03:29:55,120 --> 03:29:57,240
Speaker 2: had to shoot anyone someone we saw in the window

4140
03:29:57,320 --> 03:29:59,959
Speaker 2: of their house, you know, like it's that kind of shit,

4141
03:30:00,720 --> 03:30:02,360
Speaker 2: which I guess it makes sense that cops act the

4142
03:30:02,360 --> 03:30:04,400
Speaker 2: way they do because this has always been the way

4143
03:30:04,600 --> 03:30:08,200
Speaker 2: people with guns and power act everywhere through all time. Yeah,

4144
03:30:08,879 --> 03:30:09,400
Speaker 2: so that's good.

4145
03:30:09,600 --> 03:30:10,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah.

4146
03:30:10,920 --> 03:30:13,640
Speaker 2: So the ostensible purpose of all this carnage which to

4147
03:30:13,680 --> 03:30:15,879
Speaker 2: put an end to North Vietnam's ability to wage war,

4148
03:30:16,360 --> 03:30:19,000
Speaker 2: but a huge factor for both Kissinger and Nixon, even

4149
03:30:19,120 --> 03:30:22,240
Speaker 2: larger than any actual impact on the war itself, was

4150
03:30:22,280 --> 03:30:25,200
Speaker 2: to preserve their personal power. Right after the bombing of

4151
03:30:25,280 --> 03:30:29,359
Speaker 2: cambodi began, Nixon sent Kissinger to talk with the Soviet ambassador,

4152
03:30:29,680 --> 03:30:33,400
Speaker 2: a fellow named Dobrynyan. In Henry Kissinger in American Power,

4153
03:30:33,480 --> 03:30:37,160
Speaker 2: Thomas Schwartz writes, quote Kissinger put forward a straightforward, put

4154
03:30:37,200 --> 03:30:41,000
Speaker 2: forth a straightforward domestic political account for Nixon's motivation and thinking,

4155
03:30:41,320 --> 03:30:44,320
Speaker 2: noting that Nixon is not seeking a military victory, but

4156
03:30:44,440 --> 03:30:46,720
Speaker 2: he cannot go down in American history as the first

4157
03:30:46,840 --> 03:30:49,200
Speaker 2: US president to have lost a war in which the

4158
03:30:49,320 --> 03:30:50,240
Speaker 2: US participated.

4159
03:30:50,640 --> 03:30:55,640
Speaker 3: H Oh, I mean the honest, like you'd think you'd

4160
03:30:55,640 --> 03:30:59,640
Speaker 3: at least lie about it. No, No, just the Oh

4161
03:30:59,800 --> 03:31:05,840
Speaker 3: my god, Look, it's murdering. A demicide is one thing, Gareth,

4162
03:31:06,320 --> 03:31:11,280
Speaker 3: but dishonesty, t christs, It's just it's disgusting. That's I

4163
03:31:11,360 --> 03:31:15,080
Speaker 3: feel like a parent. Look the ambassador someone Kissinger drinks with,

4164
03:31:15,240 --> 03:31:18,000
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, exactly lie to him. I mean, I

4165
03:31:18,240 --> 03:31:20,680
Speaker 3: just I would love to see a version where he

4166
03:31:20,920 --> 03:31:23,320
Speaker 3: just keep up an appearance. Look, he can. We just

4167
03:31:23,480 --> 03:31:26,840
Speaker 3: Nixon hates losing. That's what this is about. We can't

4168
03:31:26,879 --> 03:31:29,520
Speaker 3: think the people. Yeah, it's so.

4169
03:31:29,760 --> 03:31:32,480
Speaker 2: Between March of nineteen sixty nine and May of nineteen seventy,

4170
03:31:32,560 --> 03:31:34,720
Speaker 2: more than three thousand, six hundred and thirty rates were

4171
03:31:34,720 --> 03:31:38,040
Speaker 2: flown across the cam Bodium border. Each was approved personally

4172
03:31:38,120 --> 03:31:40,920
Speaker 2: by Henry Kissinger. The New York Times broke this story

4173
03:31:40,959 --> 03:31:42,920
Speaker 2: to the American public for the first time in May

4174
03:31:43,000 --> 03:31:47,120
Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty nine. So that's pretty good, right, like

4175
03:31:47,200 --> 03:31:50,200
Speaker 2: the New York Times actually is pretty shocking on this

4176
03:31:50,440 --> 03:31:54,840
Speaker 2: and reveals what has happened. This prompts protests, an international outcry.

4177
03:31:55,200 --> 03:31:57,000
Speaker 2: That's one of the frustrating things about the New York Times,

4178
03:31:57,000 --> 03:31:58,760
Speaker 2: because there's a million things to be angry at them

4179
03:31:58,760 --> 03:32:00,600
Speaker 2: all the time, and then it's like, oh, and they

4180
03:32:00,680 --> 03:32:03,360
Speaker 2: also were the first people to reveal this horrific crime

4181
03:32:03,400 --> 03:32:04,720
Speaker 2: against humanity, because.

4182
03:32:04,720 --> 03:32:08,000
Speaker 3: These bright spots where you're like, you fuckers, Well, it's

4183
03:32:08,040 --> 03:32:08,840
Speaker 3: like a broken clock.

4184
03:32:08,879 --> 03:32:10,920
Speaker 2: Though it's you know, every now and then, it's like

4185
03:32:11,000 --> 03:32:13,200
Speaker 2: a broken clock. But when it's right, it's about like

4186
03:32:13,360 --> 03:32:18,120
Speaker 2: the massacre of civilians on an industrial scale. But also

4187
03:32:18,200 --> 03:32:21,400
Speaker 2: when it's wrong, it's about the massacre of civilians. Southern investors,

4188
03:32:23,040 --> 03:32:30,680
Speaker 2: so mixed bag. So there's immediately protest, an international outcry.

4189
03:32:30,879 --> 03:32:33,640
Speaker 2: Armed students sees a building at Cornell University, which is

4190
03:32:33,879 --> 03:32:37,200
Speaker 2: very based. Students at Kissinger's own Harvard engage in a

4191
03:32:37,240 --> 03:32:40,720
Speaker 2: two week strike. Ever, pr savvy Kissinger agreed to meet

4192
03:32:40,760 --> 03:32:43,160
Speaker 2: with student protesters in order to prop up his image

4193
03:32:43,200 --> 03:32:45,840
Speaker 2: among liberals. He told them, if you come back in

4194
03:32:45,879 --> 03:32:48,000
Speaker 2: a year and things haven't changed, we won't have a

4195
03:32:48,080 --> 03:32:50,680
Speaker 2: morally defensible position. So like, hey, you know, I know

4196
03:32:50,800 --> 03:32:52,600
Speaker 2: it's all fucked up. I've got to fix this whole

4197
03:32:52,680 --> 03:32:54,400
Speaker 2: messed up. It's been going on for years. You know

4198
03:32:54,480 --> 03:32:57,480
Speaker 2: I'm working on it. If you come back behind this,

4199
03:32:58,920 --> 03:33:02,240
Speaker 2: but I figured the problem. There's a coug in here.

4200
03:33:03,040 --> 03:33:06,840
Speaker 3: Give me, give me one year to kill all the babies.

4201
03:33:06,959 --> 03:33:10,320
Speaker 3: And it also shows how fucking crazy you are, Like

4202
03:33:10,400 --> 03:33:13,800
Speaker 3: if you're doing this, you know you'd be like, look,

4203
03:33:13,879 --> 03:33:15,480
Speaker 3: hide me. I do not want to talk to the

4204
03:33:15,600 --> 03:33:17,880
Speaker 3: fact that he's like, I'll meet them, it's like you

4205
03:33:17,920 --> 03:33:18,520
Speaker 3: can make it work.

4206
03:33:18,680 --> 03:33:24,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll just tell him what's up. Like, look, we

4207
03:33:24,320 --> 03:33:25,960
Speaker 4: gotta kill him, but we gotta kill people for like

4208
03:33:26,040 --> 03:33:29,560
Speaker 4: a year. Let's let's see how it goes. Give me

4209
03:33:29,640 --> 03:33:31,960
Speaker 4: a year. I'm gonna bomb the ship out of just

4210
03:33:32,560 --> 03:33:35,040
Speaker 4: villages and ship and kill a bunch of babies and ladies.

4211
03:33:35,080 --> 03:33:36,520
Speaker 15: Have no idea year.

4212
03:33:36,879 --> 03:33:40,879
Speaker 3: It's just nice. Nice to be back at Look at

4213
03:33:40,920 --> 03:33:43,039
Speaker 3: the campus. You guys changed a couple of things.

4214
03:33:43,160 --> 03:33:43,320
Speaker 11: Huh.

4215
03:33:44,200 --> 03:33:47,760
Speaker 3: You guys are just like you guys are like I

4216
03:33:47,879 --> 03:33:48,720
Speaker 3: heard something bad.

4217
03:33:49,040 --> 03:33:50,360
Speaker 5: We're just getting started.

4218
03:33:50,680 --> 03:33:53,400
Speaker 3: But give me a year is an amazing thing to say.

4219
03:33:53,480 --> 03:33:56,560
Speaker 3: What it's on this Look, yeah, this is happening. In

4220
03:33:56,640 --> 03:33:59,840
Speaker 3: the year, we'll revisit. It's like, yeah, no, not a year.

4221
03:34:00,560 --> 03:34:04,840
Speaker 3: You don't get to revisit this, you revisit we should

4222
03:34:04,879 --> 03:34:10,560
Speaker 3: revisit where we are in the story after this break.

4223
03:34:11,160 --> 03:34:14,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's revisit the sponsors of the show.

4224
03:34:14,640 --> 03:34:15,440
Speaker 4: You know who else?

4225
03:34:15,840 --> 03:34:19,160
Speaker 3: You know who else need a year to keep killing?

4226
03:34:19,280 --> 03:34:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah?

4227
03:34:19,640 --> 03:34:23,880
Speaker 2: Look, if if it has not stopped the carpet bombing

4228
03:34:23,959 --> 03:34:26,880
Speaker 2: of Cambodia in a year, then then you can cancel

4229
03:34:26,959 --> 03:34:27,959
Speaker 2: your subscription, you know.

4230
03:34:28,000 --> 03:34:32,040
Speaker 3: Either way talking, that's menus. Those are menu options operate

4231
03:34:32,080 --> 03:34:34,200
Speaker 3: very much like Yeah, it's very much like a white

4232
03:34:34,240 --> 03:34:36,120
Speaker 3: House visit with a hell, well, do you want to

4233
03:34:36,200 --> 03:34:37,800
Speaker 3: make a case of deal or do you want to

4234
03:34:37,879 --> 03:34:42,959
Speaker 3: do this checkpiece? What do you there's options? You want

4235
03:34:43,000 --> 03:34:55,320
Speaker 3: to do a flood bread? Oh we're back?

4236
03:34:55,800 --> 03:34:59,280
Speaker 2: So uh, there's congressional inquiries about the illegal carpet bombing?

4237
03:35:00,560 --> 03:35:02,880
Speaker 3: What are they after? What they smell some smoke?

4238
03:35:03,000 --> 03:35:08,560
Speaker 2: I should also note seizing Cornell offices with arms, dope,

4239
03:35:08,959 --> 03:35:11,400
Speaker 2: actually sitting down with Henry Kissinger to let him talk

4240
03:35:11,400 --> 03:35:14,080
Speaker 2: about how things aren't really that bad, not dope. Maybe

4241
03:35:14,200 --> 03:35:18,160
Speaker 2: throw a stapler in his face, you know something, You

4242
03:35:18,360 --> 03:35:20,720
Speaker 2: you hit him really hard to hit him. You know,

4243
03:35:21,480 --> 03:35:23,880
Speaker 2: at least give him a shoe. You know, you've got

4244
03:35:23,959 --> 03:35:27,440
Speaker 2: options from a fucking baseball team at Harvard had to

4245
03:35:27,440 --> 03:35:28,960
Speaker 2: have been able to hit him with a fastball.

4246
03:35:29,400 --> 03:35:32,720
Speaker 5: There are people that if you're around you should be

4247
03:35:33,360 --> 03:35:34,280
Speaker 5: Cheney Bush.

4248
03:35:34,920 --> 03:35:36,960
Speaker 4: Get around certain people, you get close to him, you

4249
03:35:37,000 --> 03:35:39,960
Speaker 4: should fucking hit them, hit him hard.

4250
03:35:40,120 --> 03:35:42,800
Speaker 3: Look, dig Cheney is basically like a charging phone. Just

4251
03:35:42,920 --> 03:35:45,280
Speaker 3: unplug him at this point and see what happens. Whatever

4252
03:35:45,440 --> 03:35:50,880
Speaker 3: is little plugging a microwave. Next time, just have a

4253
03:35:50,959 --> 03:35:52,280
Speaker 3: microwaving an extension cord.

4254
03:35:52,400 --> 03:35:52,720
Speaker 1: Put a.

4255
03:35:54,560 --> 03:35:56,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, look we we we all know.

4256
03:35:57,240 --> 03:36:03,480
Speaker 4: Everybody here knows that eventually Cheney and and Kissinger shed

4257
03:36:03,520 --> 03:36:06,200
Speaker 4: their human skins and become one ball of energy.

4258
03:36:06,879 --> 03:36:09,400
Speaker 3: I think Kissinger currently is shedding his human skin. If

4259
03:36:09,400 --> 03:36:11,440
Speaker 3: you've seen him lately, it looks like he's halfway through

4260
03:36:11,480 --> 03:36:14,840
Speaker 3: the moor's crossed. Yeah, but the two of them merge

4261
03:36:15,160 --> 03:36:17,480
Speaker 3: and then you know wings, Oh yeah, I get it.

4262
03:36:17,560 --> 03:36:19,800
Speaker 3: So they kind of become like a like a cerebus

4263
03:36:19,879 --> 03:36:22,959
Speaker 3: or something like that. Yeah, then they're one. It's like, Henry,

4264
03:36:23,040 --> 03:36:25,000
Speaker 3: let's get out of here. Find that they got through,

4265
03:36:26,120 --> 03:36:26,560
Speaker 3: and then they.

4266
03:36:28,200 --> 03:36:32,119
Speaker 2: And they locate in nuke microbiological life on Europa.

4267
03:36:38,000 --> 03:36:42,960
Speaker 3: No one has done yet. I love that it is coming.

4268
03:36:43,640 --> 03:36:46,840
Speaker 2: So there's congressional inquiries. Kissinger gets brought before the Senate

4269
03:36:46,879 --> 03:36:49,520
Speaker 2: where he assures everyone that Cambodian territory is bombed by

4270
03:36:49,560 --> 03:36:52,520
Speaker 2: the US were all quote unpopulated. He knew this was

4271
03:36:52,560 --> 03:36:54,959
Speaker 2: a lie at the time. We know from briefing documents

4272
03:36:55,040 --> 03:36:57,520
Speaker 2: Kissinger received that he was warned into tail about such things.

4273
03:36:57,800 --> 03:37:00,120
Speaker 2: The breakfast bombing target he was told wasn't he but

4274
03:37:00,320 --> 03:37:03,600
Speaker 2: by sixteen hundred and forty civilians, dessert had three hundred

4275
03:37:03,640 --> 03:37:04,080
Speaker 2: and fifty.

4276
03:37:04,920 --> 03:37:12,039
Speaker 3: Nixon, it's just like ice cream. Yeah, you wouldn't get

4277
03:37:12,080 --> 03:37:14,400
Speaker 3: angry at me for bombing a baskin Robbins, would you?

4278
03:37:14,879 --> 03:37:18,360
Speaker 5: There are no people there, senator who hates cake.

4279
03:37:18,879 --> 03:37:20,280
Speaker 3: It's called the magic shell.

4280
03:37:22,640 --> 03:37:25,960
Speaker 2: So Nixon eventually initially blamed Kissinger for the leaks that

4281
03:37:26,040 --> 03:37:28,200
Speaker 2: had revealed the story of the bombing of Cambodia to

4282
03:37:28,240 --> 03:37:31,320
Speaker 2: the New York Times. And this is because Kissinger brings

4283
03:37:31,360 --> 03:37:32,840
Speaker 2: in a lot of like liberals. Like a lot of

4284
03:37:32,959 --> 03:37:36,920
Speaker 2: Kissinger's staff are not Republicans, are not like right wing guys.

4285
03:37:36,959 --> 03:37:38,520
Speaker 2: They're like Northeastern liberals.

4286
03:37:39,640 --> 03:37:44,880
Speaker 3: Because yeah, and he's charming. They are.

4287
03:37:45,720 --> 03:37:47,960
Speaker 2: But Nixon is like, it must have been one of

4288
03:37:48,000 --> 03:37:50,040
Speaker 2: these East Coast liberals you brought in that leaked at

4289
03:37:50,080 --> 03:37:50,440
Speaker 2: the Times.

4290
03:37:50,720 --> 03:37:53,320
Speaker 3: Heath right, so he thinks it's an extension of Kissinger,

4291
03:37:53,400 --> 03:37:56,280
Speaker 3: not Kissinger. No, no, no, he doesn't kissing. That would

4292
03:37:56,280 --> 03:38:02,199
Speaker 3: be someone's really up to something. Somebody's fuckinglogy. I won't

4293
03:38:02,200 --> 03:38:02,920
Speaker 3: tell you who those.

4294
03:38:03,480 --> 03:38:06,240
Speaker 4: But this is just like bringing Woody Allen in. He's funny,

4295
03:38:06,360 --> 03:38:07,800
Speaker 4: he tells you he's good.

4296
03:38:09,120 --> 03:38:13,800
Speaker 2: This is some good context on how comprehensively shitty a

4297
03:38:13,879 --> 03:38:17,160
Speaker 2: person Kissinger is, how incapable of real loyalty he is.

4298
03:38:17,840 --> 03:38:20,640
Speaker 2: Thomas Schwartz writes that in order to preserve his own position,

4299
03:38:20,760 --> 03:38:23,200
Speaker 2: Kissinger had to throw large numbers of his team members

4300
03:38:23,320 --> 03:38:26,720
Speaker 2: under the bus quote. Kissinger called FBI Director J. Edgar

4301
03:38:26,720 --> 03:38:28,400
Speaker 2: Hoover and gave him a list of those staffers in

4302
03:38:28,480 --> 03:38:31,000
Speaker 2: his office with access to the information, telling Hoover that

4303
03:38:31,080 --> 03:38:33,560
Speaker 2: he would destroy whoever did this if we can find him,

4304
03:38:33,600 --> 03:38:35,600
Speaker 2: no matter where he is. Among the first to be

4305
03:38:36,040 --> 03:38:39,680
Speaker 2: wiretapped was Morton Halperin, who had helped devise the NSC system.

4306
03:38:39,959 --> 03:38:43,400
Speaker 2: Helm At Sonenfeld, Kissinger's fellow German Jewish refugee, and even

4307
03:38:43,440 --> 03:38:46,600
Speaker 2: Winston Lord, the man Kissinger later called his conscience on

4308
03:38:46,760 --> 03:38:50,199
Speaker 2: foreign policy issues. And all there would be seventeen FBI

4309
03:38:50,320 --> 03:38:53,440
Speaker 2: wiretaps up by the White House, thirteen on government employees,

4310
03:38:53,480 --> 03:38:56,920
Speaker 2: including Kissinger's staff, and four on newsmen, among them Kissinger's

4311
03:38:56,920 --> 03:38:59,080
Speaker 2: British friend who was a reporter for the London Times.

4312
03:38:59,240 --> 03:39:03,160
Speaker 3: It's a media or raw. It's like American idol level

4313
03:39:03,600 --> 03:39:09,320
Speaker 3: sudden impact as far as because I mean, as you

4314
03:39:09,480 --> 03:39:13,600
Speaker 3: pointed to, he wasn't like this crazy. I mean he

4315
03:39:13,720 --> 03:39:18,120
Speaker 3: was crazy, but now it's like he's just it's on roids.

4316
03:39:18,640 --> 03:39:20,800
Speaker 3: The level that he the level he's gotten to, and

4317
03:39:20,920 --> 03:39:23,640
Speaker 3: the level of insanity that he's gotten to is really

4318
03:39:24,720 --> 03:39:27,480
Speaker 3: even for this country historic.

4319
03:39:27,959 --> 03:39:31,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's pretty cool. And just like it's great

4320
03:39:31,959 --> 03:39:35,280
Speaker 2: he is he's not capable of even like treating his

4321
03:39:35,560 --> 03:39:39,840
Speaker 2: very loyal friends. Well, so, yeah, this would come back

4322
03:39:39,840 --> 03:39:41,480
Speaker 2: to bite Kissinger and Nixon and the ass in the

4323
03:39:41,560 --> 03:39:43,640
Speaker 2: not too distant future. But we're gonna take a while

4324
03:39:43,720 --> 03:39:45,520
Speaker 2: to get to that because there's a lot in between

4325
03:39:46,400 --> 03:39:49,400
Speaker 2: there and now. So let's return to Cambodia. It is

4326
03:39:49,480 --> 03:39:52,480
Speaker 2: worth noting that Operation Menu achieved nothing. It was useless

4327
03:39:52,480 --> 03:39:55,160
Speaker 2: in a military sense. The enemy command and control facilities

4328
03:39:55,160 --> 03:39:57,960
Speaker 2: they were ostensibly trying to destroy. We're never take it out.

4329
03:39:58,440 --> 03:40:00,959
Speaker 2: And it was useless for a negotiating standpoint because North

4330
03:40:01,040 --> 03:40:07,039
Speaker 2: Vietnam did not bulge, budge bulge, They post baby.

4331
03:40:08,640 --> 03:40:08,880
Speaker 1: They have.

4332
03:40:09,040 --> 03:40:12,920
Speaker 2: Nineteen seventy, Nixon incited to escalate again by ordering a

4333
03:40:13,040 --> 03:40:16,119
Speaker 2: ground invasion of Cambodia. He announced this with a typically

4334
03:40:16,200 --> 03:40:18,720
Speaker 2: unhinged speech. And again this is public because at this point,

4335
03:40:18,760 --> 03:40:20,520
Speaker 2: you know, the New York Times is revealed things. So

4336
03:40:21,240 --> 03:40:23,440
Speaker 2: we live in an age of anarchy. We see mindless

4337
03:40:23,440 --> 03:40:25,760
Speaker 2: attacks and all the great institutions which have been created

4338
03:40:25,800 --> 03:40:29,960
Speaker 2: by free civilizations in the past five hundred years. It's

4339
03:40:30,080 --> 03:40:35,760
Speaker 2: happening because kids are like protesting and colleges yeah, like yeah.

4340
03:40:36,080 --> 03:40:37,879
Speaker 3: He framed it as a test of the nation's quote

4341
03:40:37,920 --> 03:40:41,400
Speaker 3: will and character. Serious. Now he's right.

4342
03:40:41,600 --> 03:40:44,640
Speaker 2: When one of his staff members balkman, Kissinger's staff members

4343
03:40:44,720 --> 03:40:48,160
Speaker 2: balked at plans to illegally invade Cambody with ground troops troops,

4344
03:40:48,200 --> 03:40:51,400
Speaker 2: Henry told him, quote, your views represent the cowardice of

4345
03:40:51,440 --> 03:40:56,080
Speaker 2: the Eastern establishment. This staff member, William Watts, tried to

4346
03:40:56,200 --> 03:40:59,720
Speaker 2: physically attack Henry Kissinger who hid behind his desk.

4347
03:41:00,160 --> 03:41:03,240
Speaker 3: Ah, it's just like that, if he was only able

4348
03:41:03,320 --> 03:41:06,360
Speaker 3: to just kill him. What imagine the ripple, if only

4349
03:41:06,400 --> 03:41:10,160
Speaker 3: there'd been a sharper letter opener on the desk, put

4350
03:41:10,200 --> 03:41:11,640
Speaker 3: it like a pen through his neck.

4351
03:41:11,959 --> 03:41:16,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very funny that Kissinger did at some point

4352
03:41:16,160 --> 03:41:18,879
Speaker 2: have to hide behind a desk to stop his staff from.

4353
03:41:18,879 --> 03:41:22,720
Speaker 3: So strong bombing everywhere. And then he's hiding under his desk.

4354
03:41:23,360 --> 03:41:24,000
Speaker 3: The relax.

4355
03:41:24,480 --> 03:41:28,360
Speaker 2: So this staff member, uh Watts resigns right after this,

4356
03:41:28,520 --> 03:41:31,840
Speaker 2: And when staff member Anthony Lake echoes Wats' concerns, Kissinger,

4357
03:41:31,959 --> 03:41:35,400
Speaker 2: presumably still hiding behind his desk, calls Lake not manly

4358
03:41:35,520 --> 03:41:38,240
Speaker 2: enough to do what was necessary, and so Lake resigns too.

4359
03:41:39,680 --> 03:41:43,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. Bold words from behind the hiding behind a desk. Yeah,

4360
03:41:43,840 --> 03:41:44,600
Speaker 3: big tough guy.

4361
03:41:44,800 --> 03:41:47,959
Speaker 2: Four days after Nixon's speech announcing the invasion of Cambodia,

4362
03:41:48,080 --> 03:41:50,400
Speaker 2: four students were shot dead at Kent State during a

4363
03:41:50,480 --> 03:41:53,960
Speaker 2: protest over the invasion. Nine more were wounded. Two weeks later,

4364
03:41:54,120 --> 03:41:56,840
Speaker 2: at Jackson State, police shot into a crowd of black

4365
03:41:56,879 --> 03:41:59,920
Speaker 2: students protesting the war. Two were killed and twelve wounded.

4366
03:42:00,680 --> 03:42:05,080
Speaker 2: The invasion prompted some of the first consequences and only consequences. Kissinger, ever,

4367
03:42:05,200 --> 03:42:09,480
Speaker 2: faced stern rebukes from fancy academics he respected. A group

4368
03:42:09,520 --> 03:42:11,640
Speaker 2: of them, men who had often acted as his brain

4369
03:42:11,720 --> 03:42:15,199
Speaker 2: trust and advised him and other presidential advisers on issues,

4370
03:42:15,560 --> 03:42:18,440
Speaker 2: marched into his office after the invasion. One of the men,

4371
03:42:18,720 --> 03:42:21,560
Speaker 2: Thomas Shelling, opened by saying that he supposed he should

4372
03:42:21,600 --> 03:42:24,720
Speaker 2: explain who they were. Kissinger responded with confusion that I

4373
03:42:24,840 --> 03:42:27,120
Speaker 2: know who you are. You're all good friends from Harvard.

4374
03:42:27,760 --> 03:42:31,600
Speaker 2: Next from Niall Ferguson's Kissinger no, said Shelling. We're a

4375
03:42:31,640 --> 03:42:34,120
Speaker 2: group of people who have completely lost confidence in the

4376
03:42:34,160 --> 03:42:36,480
Speaker 2: ability of the White House to conduct our foreign policy,

4377
03:42:36,720 --> 03:42:38,440
Speaker 2: and we have come to tell you so we are

4378
03:42:38,520 --> 03:42:41,240
Speaker 2: no longer at your disposal as personal advisors. Each of

4379
03:42:41,320 --> 03:42:43,959
Speaker 2: them then proceeded to berate him, taking five minutes apiece.

4380
03:42:44,840 --> 03:42:50,640
Speaker 4: Now sound at this point you've seen from Rudy when

4381
03:42:50,680 --> 03:42:52,040
Speaker 4: they all hand in there.

4382
03:42:52,720 --> 03:42:56,640
Speaker 3: Yeah for to get ready to play. It's like that

4383
03:42:57,280 --> 03:42:58,039
Speaker 3: and stories.

4384
03:42:58,760 --> 03:43:02,240
Speaker 2: If you have oh god, what's his fucking name, I'm

4385
03:43:02,240 --> 03:43:03,880
Speaker 2: spacing the West Wing, motherfucker.

4386
03:43:06,040 --> 03:43:10,280
Speaker 3: If Aaron is a description of him.

4387
03:43:11,440 --> 03:43:13,560
Speaker 2: If Aaron Sorkin is writing this, this is like the

4388
03:43:13,640 --> 03:43:16,840
Speaker 2: heroic moment where like the conscience of the American ruling

4389
03:43:16,879 --> 03:43:19,080
Speaker 2: class that comes in is like, this is not right, Henry,

4390
03:43:19,360 --> 03:43:23,000
Speaker 2: and really that's bullshit, that's not what's happening. And Ferguson

4391
03:43:23,080 --> 03:43:25,040
Speaker 2: goes on to note that these guys were kind of

4392
03:43:25,080 --> 03:43:29,120
Speaker 2: full of shit. They're all Washington insiders. They have Shelling

4393
03:43:29,200 --> 03:43:33,520
Speaker 2: advised LBJ to massively escalade violence throughout the war in Vietnam.

4394
03:43:34,240 --> 03:43:36,480
Speaker 2: Ferguson continues, and this is his explanation of what they

4395
03:43:36,520 --> 03:43:39,680
Speaker 2: were really doing. Quote for these men publicly breaking with Kissinger,

4396
03:43:39,760 --> 03:43:42,520
Speaker 2: with journalists briefed in advance about the breach was a

4397
03:43:42,600 --> 03:43:46,000
Speaker 2: form of self exculpation, not to say, an insurance policy.

4398
03:43:46,040 --> 03:43:48,600
Speaker 2: As student radicals back on the Harvard campus ran riot.

4399
03:43:48,920 --> 03:43:51,000
Speaker 2: When Newstat told the Crimson, I think it's safe to

4400
03:43:51,040 --> 03:43:53,879
Speaker 2: say we're afraid, he did not specify of what others

4401
03:43:53,920 --> 03:43:56,840
Speaker 2: were more candid, as Shelling put it, if Cambodia succeeds,

4402
03:43:56,879 --> 03:43:59,280
Speaker 2: it will be disaster, not just because my Harvard office

4403
03:43:59,280 --> 03:44:00,920
Speaker 2: may be burned down when I get home, but it

4404
03:44:00,920 --> 03:44:03,680
Speaker 2: would even be a disaster in the administration zone terms.

4405
03:44:04,400 --> 03:44:10,640
Speaker 3: So it's amazing it fuck sake, Yeah, I mean, honestly,

4406
03:44:10,720 --> 03:44:12,520
Speaker 3: that's what this happens on the dollop a lot where

4407
03:44:12,520 --> 03:44:14,640
Speaker 3: I'm like, all right, we got a hero, and then

4408
03:44:14,680 --> 03:44:16,680
Speaker 3: immediately I'm like more villains. God damn it.

4409
03:44:16,760 --> 03:44:18,680
Speaker 2: I mean to the extent that there's some heroes, the

4410
03:44:18,800 --> 03:44:21,640
Speaker 2: kids on these campuses who are actually like lighting buildings

4411
03:44:21,680 --> 03:44:25,039
Speaker 2: on fire and destroying things. They do make Henry Kissinger

4412
03:44:25,160 --> 03:44:28,240
Speaker 2: and his academic friends afraid and uncomfortable briefly, which is

4413
03:44:28,280 --> 03:44:29,680
Speaker 2: more than anyone else does.

4414
03:44:30,160 --> 03:44:33,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean this would kind of be the

4415
03:44:33,320 --> 03:44:36,440
Speaker 3: last time that that even happens, really, right, that like

4416
03:44:36,879 --> 03:44:40,039
Speaker 3: that people in that level of power do feel any

4417
03:44:40,120 --> 03:44:43,119
Speaker 3: sort of like threat from the So the regular folk.

4418
03:44:43,120 --> 03:44:46,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, credit where it's due. They are the only people

4419
03:44:46,240 --> 03:44:48,760
Speaker 2: that I'm aware of who made Henry Kissinger briefly feel

4420
03:44:48,840 --> 03:44:50,720
Speaker 2: something that vaguely resembles shame.

4421
03:44:51,000 --> 03:44:51,480
Speaker 3: So emotion.

4422
03:44:52,000 --> 03:44:54,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, good, like seriously good work.

4423
03:44:55,640 --> 03:44:58,720
Speaker 3: But of course, you know that doesn't stop anything, obviously,

4424
03:44:59,440 --> 03:45:02,440
Speaker 3: you know he's got of course, he's got many desks. Yeah.

4425
03:45:03,320 --> 03:45:06,240
Speaker 2: So Cambodia falls into chaos as a result of the

4426
03:45:06,840 --> 03:45:09,080
Speaker 2: as most places would when bombed on this level. Right,

4427
03:45:09,320 --> 03:45:12,720
Speaker 2: hard to maintain a state with this level of things exploding.

4428
03:45:13,800 --> 03:45:16,959
Speaker 2: It is unclear precisely how many people die in Operation Menu,

4429
03:45:17,080 --> 03:45:20,160
Speaker 2: the subsequent invasion of Cambodia and the bombing campaigns that followed.

4430
03:45:20,520 --> 03:45:24,040
Speaker 2: The low estimate is fifty thousand. The high estimates are

4431
03:45:24,040 --> 03:45:26,480
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand. Thirty to

4432
03:45:26,600 --> 03:45:29,600
Speaker 2: fifty thousand. Lotions die in the bombing campaign, which makes

4433
03:45:29,640 --> 03:45:33,119
Speaker 2: the sparsely populated nation the most densely bombed place on Earth.

4434
03:45:33,560 --> 03:45:36,040
Speaker 2: Thirty percent of these bombs failed to detonate, and in

4435
03:45:36,080 --> 03:45:38,400
Speaker 2: the years since the bombing, another twenty thousand people have

4436
03:45:38,520 --> 03:45:41,600
Speaker 2: died from the estimated eighty million bombs left in the soil.

4437
03:45:41,920 --> 03:45:45,160
Speaker 2: Forty percent of the victims or children. One AID worker

4438
03:45:45,240 --> 03:45:47,520
Speaker 2: set of the situation. There are parts of law where

4439
03:45:47,560 --> 03:45:50,080
Speaker 2: there is literally no free space. There are no areas

4440
03:45:50,120 --> 03:45:51,920
Speaker 2: that have not been bombed. And when you are in

4441
03:45:52,000 --> 03:45:54,000
Speaker 2: the villages now, you still see the evidence of that.

4442
03:45:54,400 --> 03:45:57,000
Speaker 2: You see the bomb craters, You still see an unbelievable

4443
03:45:57,000 --> 03:45:59,240
Speaker 2: amount of metal and wreckage and an exploded ordinance just

4444
03:45:59,320 --> 03:46:02,640
Speaker 2: lying around in and it's still injuring and killing people today.

4445
03:46:02,720 --> 03:46:03,400
Speaker 3: What a legacy.

4446
03:46:03,640 --> 03:46:06,240
Speaker 2: Now, If any of this concerned Nixon and Kissinger.

4447
03:46:06,360 --> 03:46:08,600
Speaker 4: I would like you to just throw out there that

4448
03:46:09,400 --> 03:46:12,040
Speaker 4: I do feel that gardening should be more dangerous.

4449
03:46:12,320 --> 03:46:15,560
Speaker 2: So yes, and nobody's in disagreement about that. And we

4450
03:46:15,680 --> 03:46:17,880
Speaker 2: have enough bombs in this country to make gardening a

4451
03:46:17,920 --> 03:46:18,720
Speaker 2: lot more dangerous.

4452
03:46:19,720 --> 03:46:24,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, four fucking beans.

4453
03:46:25,280 --> 03:46:27,360
Speaker 2: If there's not a one in three chance digging up

4454
03:46:27,360 --> 03:46:29,879
Speaker 2: a potato loses you a goddamn arm, you're not really

4455
03:46:29,920 --> 03:46:30,480
Speaker 2: a gardener.

4456
03:46:34,320 --> 03:46:36,680
Speaker 3: So how are the tomatoes? Ken's dead?

4457
03:46:41,959 --> 03:46:44,720
Speaker 2: If any of this concerned Nixon and Kissinger, we have

4458
03:46:44,879 --> 03:46:47,240
Speaker 2: no evidence of it. We know that in nineteen seventy two,

4459
03:46:47,360 --> 03:46:50,680
Speaker 2: Nixon asked how many did we kill in LAO, and

4460
03:46:50,800 --> 03:46:54,320
Speaker 2: the Press Secretary ron Ziegler responded with a guess, maybe

4461
03:46:54,400 --> 03:46:59,160
Speaker 2: ten thousand fifteen. Kissinger agreed in motion in the lotion

4462
03:46:59,400 --> 03:47:02,720
Speaker 2: thing killed about ten fifteen. This is how they talk about.

4463
03:47:02,840 --> 03:47:06,520
Speaker 3: It's the showcase showdown three to five, nine eleven's worth

4464
03:47:06,520 --> 03:47:06,879
Speaker 3: of people.

4465
03:47:06,879 --> 03:47:10,520
Speaker 4: I mean, it's the way you talking about. Did you

4466
03:47:10,600 --> 03:47:12,080
Speaker 4: get like one bag of grapes or two?

4467
03:47:12,400 --> 03:47:13,920
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think I had two bags of grapes.

4468
03:47:14,120 --> 03:47:16,040
Speaker 2: Oh, what's the cover fee to get into that? To

4469
03:47:16,080 --> 03:47:18,039
Speaker 2: get into that concert? It's like ten or fifteen bucks?

4470
03:47:18,120 --> 03:47:18,320
Speaker 3: Yeah?

4471
03:47:18,600 --> 03:47:22,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, except for this is they're just complete and total

4472
03:47:22,320 --> 03:47:23,560
Speaker 4: fucking psychopaths and.

4473
03:47:23,600 --> 03:47:25,640
Speaker 2: They're off by a half at least. You know, it's

4474
03:47:25,680 --> 03:47:29,240
Speaker 2: hard to get accurate. You know, death tolls here and

4475
03:47:29,320 --> 03:47:31,360
Speaker 2: the bombs were not the only thing left behind by

4476
03:47:31,400 --> 03:47:35,880
Speaker 2: the campaign that Kissinger orchestrated. Greg Brandon Wrights defoliation chemicals

4477
03:47:35,920 --> 03:47:38,240
Speaker 2: did their work just over a two week period April

4478
03:47:38,280 --> 03:47:41,440
Speaker 2: eighteenth to May second, nineteen sixty nine. US dropped agent

4479
03:47:41,520 --> 03:47:44,720
Speaker 2: Orange caused significant damage. Andrew Wells Dang, who has long

4480
03:47:44,800 --> 03:47:47,560
Speaker 2: been involved in relief aid to Southeast Asia rights. Both

4481
03:47:47,600 --> 03:47:50,320
Speaker 2: the US government and independent inspection teams confirmed that one

4482
03:47:50,400 --> 03:47:53,879
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy three thousand acres were sprayed seven percent

4483
03:47:53,920 --> 03:47:57,080
Speaker 2: of Kompong Cham Province, twenty four thousand, seven hundred of

4484
03:47:57,120 --> 03:48:00,960
Speaker 2: them seriously affected. The rubber plantations totaled approximately one third

4485
03:48:00,959 --> 03:48:03,680
Speaker 2: of Cambodia's total and represented a loss of twelve percent

4486
03:48:03,760 --> 03:48:06,840
Speaker 2: of the country's export earnings. Washington agreed to pay over

4487
03:48:06,920 --> 03:48:09,800
Speaker 2: twelve million in reparations, but Kissinger tried to defer the

4488
03:48:09,879 --> 03:48:12,680
Speaker 2: payment to fiscal year nineteen seventy two, when the money

4489
03:48:12,720 --> 03:48:15,600
Speaker 2: could be paid without a specific without a special request

4490
03:48:15,879 --> 03:48:18,960
Speaker 2: that would have revealed US cross border activity. Every effort

4491
03:48:19,040 --> 03:48:21,680
Speaker 2: Kissinger road should be made to avoid the necessity for

4492
03:48:21,720 --> 03:48:24,560
Speaker 2: a special budgetary request to provide funds to debate his claim.

4493
03:48:24,840 --> 03:48:27,800
Speaker 5: Oh my god, look, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're going

4494
03:48:27,879 --> 03:48:28,400
Speaker 5: to get the money.

4495
03:48:28,440 --> 03:48:29,160
Speaker 3: You're gonna get the money.

4496
03:48:29,200 --> 03:48:29,960
Speaker 5: You're gonna get the money.

4497
03:48:30,080 --> 03:48:31,480
Speaker 3: The money. It's just gonna take a lot. I just

4498
03:48:31,560 --> 03:48:33,560
Speaker 3: need to it's a thing. Move.

4499
03:48:33,680 --> 03:48:35,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, I need to move some stuff around. Just but

4500
03:48:35,800 --> 03:48:36,440
Speaker 5: you're gonna get it.

4501
03:48:36,720 --> 03:48:38,120
Speaker 3: It's fine. I don't know.

4502
03:48:38,520 --> 03:48:40,080
Speaker 4: Let's just keep it on the on the d L,

4503
03:48:40,120 --> 03:48:40,600
Speaker 4: you know what I mean.

4504
03:48:40,680 --> 03:48:42,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's yeah, it is.

4505
03:48:42,160 --> 03:48:46,080
Speaker 3: Hecret Service wasn't calling Trump Agent Orange by the way, Uh,

4506
03:48:46,680 --> 03:48:49,080
Speaker 3: if that wasn't his code name, that's a disappointment, that is.

4507
03:48:49,240 --> 03:48:50,800
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, there's a lot of reasons to be

4508
03:48:50,879 --> 03:48:53,080
Speaker 2: disappointed in the Secret Service, but that is one of them.

4509
03:48:53,360 --> 03:48:54,240
Speaker 3: That's my mom one.

4510
03:48:54,800 --> 03:48:58,160
Speaker 2: So the loss of life and economic damage caused Cambodia

4511
03:48:58,200 --> 03:49:00,720
Speaker 2: to spiral into chaos, or at least was a factor.

4512
03:49:00,760 --> 03:49:03,000
Speaker 2: Other stuff's going on. We have a couple episodes about

4513
03:49:03,040 --> 03:49:05,560
Speaker 2: King Notre Dam Sahanok, who is a real piece of shit.

4514
03:49:05,640 --> 03:49:08,080
Speaker 2: In the King of Cambodia. In this period, a lot's happening,

4515
03:49:08,960 --> 03:49:11,280
Speaker 2: but unrest by the caused by the bombings and the

4516
03:49:11,320 --> 03:49:14,600
Speaker 2: economic devastation helped to spark a right wing coup, which

4517
03:49:14,680 --> 03:49:16,640
Speaker 2: was likely orchestrated with CIA help.

4518
03:49:16,480 --> 03:49:19,040
Speaker 3: And US with the direct input it. You guys are

4519
03:49:19,120 --> 03:49:21,520
Speaker 3: looking to change things up here. We've got a plan,

4520
03:49:21,760 --> 03:49:24,240
Speaker 3: We got an idea. Well do no matter what happened,

4521
03:49:24,240 --> 03:49:27,960
Speaker 3: someone bomb you will Why don't we provide some help? Yeah, exactly.

4522
03:49:28,120 --> 03:49:30,720
Speaker 2: And the coup, you know, overthrows the king, who then

4523
03:49:31,160 --> 03:49:32,520
Speaker 2: starts backing the.

4524
03:49:32,600 --> 03:49:35,360
Speaker 3: Khmer Rouge then wins. They're great.

4525
03:49:35,720 --> 03:49:38,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, their counter revolution against the right wing coup, and

4526
03:49:38,440 --> 03:49:41,080
Speaker 2: this leads to the establishment of Polpot's Khmer Rouge government.

4527
03:49:41,960 --> 03:49:42,160
Speaker 3: Yay.

4528
03:49:43,200 --> 03:49:45,840
Speaker 2: Once the Rouge took over in nineteen seventy five, Nixon

4529
03:49:45,920 --> 03:49:49,160
Speaker 2: had left office. Kissinger, though, was still in power. In

4530
03:49:49,240 --> 03:49:52,120
Speaker 2: November of nineteen seventy five, he told Thailand's foreign minister,

4531
03:49:52,560 --> 03:49:54,520
Speaker 2: you should also tell the Cambodians that we will be

4532
03:49:54,560 --> 03:49:56,800
Speaker 2: friends with them. They are murderous thugs, but we won't

4533
03:49:56,840 --> 03:49:58,920
Speaker 2: let that stand in our way. We are prepared to

4534
03:49:59,040 --> 03:49:59,800
Speaker 2: improve relations.

4535
03:50:00,000 --> 03:50:02,280
Speaker 3: That's what I mean. Yeah, I mean we get it.

4536
03:50:02,600 --> 03:50:07,320
Speaker 3: We get a Kissinger. I mean my people were I

4537
03:50:07,400 --> 03:50:10,520
Speaker 3: get it. Murderous thugs. I'm all about murderous thugs. I

4538
03:50:10,640 --> 03:50:13,520
Speaker 3: think we could find common ground. This man wants to

4539
03:50:13,640 --> 03:50:14,680
Speaker 3: kill a million people.

4540
03:50:14,760 --> 03:50:16,200
Speaker 2: I think that is a cute start.

4541
03:50:17,320 --> 03:50:20,400
Speaker 3: I've got adorable. In nineteen eighty.

4542
03:50:20,240 --> 03:50:22,680
Speaker 2: Eight, when questioned on this, Kissinger explained that quote, the

4543
03:50:22,760 --> 03:50:25,560
Speaker 2: Tie and the Chinese did not want a Vietnamese dominated

4544
03:50:25,640 --> 03:50:28,280
Speaker 2: into China. We didn't want the Vietnamese to dominate. I

4545
03:50:28,280 --> 03:50:30,160
Speaker 2: don't believe we did anything for pole Pot, but I

4546
03:50:30,200 --> 03:50:32,680
Speaker 2: suspect we closed our eyes when some others did something

4547
03:50:32,760 --> 03:50:36,560
Speaker 2: for pole Pot. Of course, the United States attempted at

4548
03:50:36,600 --> 03:50:39,080
Speaker 2: least to provide direct military aid to the Khmer rouge

4549
03:50:39,080 --> 03:50:41,000
Speaker 2: in order to help them oppose Vietnam, and there's a

4550
03:50:41,040 --> 03:50:43,400
Speaker 2: lot of debate and uncertainty. It seems that very little

4551
03:50:43,400 --> 03:50:45,400
Speaker 2: if any actually made it to the Khmer, but this

4552
03:50:45,520 --> 03:50:49,120
Speaker 2: is primarily because of difficulty getting shipped into Cambodia at

4553
03:50:49,160 --> 03:50:52,560
Speaker 2: this point in time. But it is fair to say

4554
03:50:52,640 --> 03:50:55,440
Speaker 2: that Kissinger and Nixon's actions were crucial in creating the

4555
03:50:55,520 --> 03:50:58,600
Speaker 2: circumstances that brought Polepot to power, and once he was

4556
03:50:58,680 --> 03:51:01,760
Speaker 2: in charge in massacring people, they tacitly supported his government

4557
03:51:01,800 --> 03:51:04,440
Speaker 2: because they thought it would styley the Vietnamese. In total,

4558
03:51:04,480 --> 03:51:06,760
Speaker 2: from the killing that started when the US bombing rates began,

4559
03:51:07,040 --> 03:51:09,280
Speaker 2: to the people killed by Polpot's regime, to those who

4560
03:51:09,320 --> 03:51:12,040
Speaker 2: died fighting in the fighting with Vietnam that finally brought

4561
03:51:12,040 --> 03:51:15,480
Speaker 2: the rouge to an end. One point seven million Cambodians died,

4562
03:51:15,520 --> 03:51:17,520
Speaker 2: more than a quarter of the population of the country

4563
03:51:17,560 --> 03:51:17,960
Speaker 2: pre war.

4564
03:51:18,160 --> 03:51:25,800
Speaker 4: It's it's so incredible how their ideology of just communism bad.

4565
03:51:26,080 --> 03:51:28,320
Speaker 4: They're like, well, communism will kill a bunch of people,

4566
03:51:28,400 --> 03:51:29,080
Speaker 4: and they're just.

4567
03:51:29,360 --> 03:51:33,320
Speaker 3: Fucking everything they can to say people well.

4568
03:51:33,360 --> 03:51:36,560
Speaker 2: And it's also like they don't even really believe communists

4569
03:51:36,560 --> 03:51:39,080
Speaker 2: because the Khmara or communists hell, and they're fine with

4570
03:51:39,200 --> 03:51:41,240
Speaker 2: working with them because it's Vietnam is the ones who

4571
03:51:41,280 --> 03:51:41,640
Speaker 2: beat them.

4572
03:51:41,640 --> 03:51:42,840
Speaker 3: And so they're angry at Vietnam.

4573
03:51:42,920 --> 03:51:46,480
Speaker 2: And it's like and Vietnam fights Cambodia, Like it's not

4574
03:51:46,760 --> 03:51:51,920
Speaker 2: there's no these people don't believe in anything. Yeah, there's

4575
03:51:51,960 --> 03:51:55,320
Speaker 2: not good lessons to take from this, but no, it's

4576
03:51:55,480 --> 03:51:58,280
Speaker 2: it's really someone should have stabbed Henry Kissinger, that's for sure.

4577
03:51:58,720 --> 03:52:00,880
Speaker 3: Oh I stabbed him.

4578
03:52:01,280 --> 03:52:03,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's so many people we should have stabbed.

4579
03:52:03,520 --> 03:52:06,480
Speaker 3: I mean there's so many, but Kissinger's.

4580
03:52:06,000 --> 03:52:09,480
Speaker 2: Way up there and in this story right, like we're not. Obviously,

4581
03:52:09,560 --> 03:52:11,680
Speaker 2: you can't blame all of the deaths in Cambodia on

4582
03:52:11,760 --> 03:52:13,680
Speaker 2: Kissinger a lot, just like you can't blame all of

4583
03:52:13,760 --> 03:52:16,200
Speaker 2: the deaths in Vietnam on Kissinger and Nixon, but like

4584
03:52:16,440 --> 03:52:18,920
Speaker 2: just so many lead to which he's central to a

4585
03:52:18,960 --> 03:52:21,160
Speaker 2: lot of the worst actions in these wars.

4586
03:52:21,200 --> 03:52:23,640
Speaker 3: Well, And so the I I keep thinking about the

4587
03:52:23,680 --> 03:52:27,840
Speaker 3: point you made in the last episode where it you know,

4588
03:52:28,360 --> 03:52:32,480
Speaker 3: the idea that LBJ, that that he broke up the

4589
03:52:32,680 --> 03:52:36,440
Speaker 3: LBJ plan to sort of end all of this, and

4590
03:52:36,880 --> 03:52:40,480
Speaker 3: just for political reasons made that not happen, and that

4591
03:52:40,960 --> 03:52:43,960
Speaker 3: just that the avenue that we are down now is

4592
03:52:44,240 --> 03:52:47,520
Speaker 3: just I mean, it's unconscionable.

4593
03:52:47,640 --> 03:52:51,760
Speaker 4: And there's there's so many also we also besides just

4594
03:52:52,000 --> 03:52:58,560
Speaker 4: the straight bombings, we destabilize areas, we change the trajectory.

4595
03:52:58,720 --> 03:53:00,760
Speaker 3: Look putin is our fucking doing.

4596
03:53:01,000 --> 03:53:05,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, we fucking took out the government, We did Yelsen,

4597
03:53:05,520 --> 03:53:06,080
Speaker 5: all that shit.

4598
03:53:06,200 --> 03:53:08,160
Speaker 3: That was a fucking I'm not gonna let you sit

4599
03:53:08,240 --> 03:53:10,760
Speaker 3: here and touch shit on Yeltsen. He was very in

4600
03:53:10,880 --> 03:53:12,280
Speaker 3: control of what he was doing to it.

4601
03:53:12,560 --> 03:53:14,440
Speaker 2: I definitely knew what was happening.

4602
03:53:14,560 --> 03:53:16,800
Speaker 3: It wasn't like having a bottle of sphar enough in charge.

4603
03:53:16,960 --> 03:53:17,840
Speaker 3: Nothing that happened.

4604
03:53:18,360 --> 03:53:21,120
Speaker 5: Everything we get involved with turns into a fuck pie.

4605
03:53:21,200 --> 03:53:24,360
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just we just create chaos.

4606
03:53:24,720 --> 03:53:26,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're murder midas.

4607
03:53:26,680 --> 03:53:29,440
Speaker 2: It's this, it's this thing where we're talking about like

4608
03:53:29,520 --> 03:53:33,280
Speaker 2: how how insane it is that Kissinger is micromanaging these bombings.

4609
03:53:33,640 --> 03:53:36,040
Speaker 2: Which is not to say that like the military men

4610
03:53:36,080 --> 03:53:39,560
Speaker 2: who were doing it before were particularly better. And this

4611
03:53:39,680 --> 03:53:41,920
Speaker 2: is the problem that like we're going to have, you know,

4612
03:53:42,400 --> 03:53:44,680
Speaker 2: with Ukraine and whatnot too. It's just that like, well,

4613
03:53:44,720 --> 03:53:46,880
Speaker 2: now we have all of these people who are supposed

4614
03:53:46,920 --> 03:53:48,880
Speaker 2: to be are the people we call experts who are

4615
03:53:48,920 --> 03:53:50,960
Speaker 2: now going to be doing things, and like if you

4616
03:53:51,080 --> 03:53:53,960
Speaker 2: actually look at their resumes, it is not a wide

4617
03:53:54,080 --> 03:53:57,240
Speaker 2: ranging history of successes, you know. And it is the

4618
03:53:57,320 --> 03:53:59,200
Speaker 2: same thing with Russia. You could look at like Russian

4619
03:53:59,200 --> 03:54:02,040
Speaker 2: intervention a bunch places. It's a nightmare. The kind of

4620
03:54:02,120 --> 03:54:04,960
Speaker 2: people who are in a position to make calls when

4621
03:54:05,000 --> 03:54:09,440
Speaker 2: the conflicts get to this level are always ghoules, and

4622
03:54:09,520 --> 03:54:14,160
Speaker 2: they're always bad at anything but causing devastation. And that's

4623
03:54:14,400 --> 03:54:17,200
Speaker 2: why all of this keeps happening, because none of these

4624
03:54:17,200 --> 03:54:18,360
Speaker 2: people are any good at it.

4625
03:54:18,560 --> 03:54:22,200
Speaker 3: And no one gets punished and nobody ever mean.

4626
03:54:22,360 --> 03:54:25,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, the fact that Bill Crystal is still saying what

4627
03:54:25,480 --> 03:54:28,000
Speaker 4: anybody do anywhere in the world, You're like, what in.

4628
03:54:28,040 --> 03:54:31,960
Speaker 3: The fuck is going on? Guess who gets to go,

4629
03:54:32,200 --> 03:54:36,120
Speaker 3: who goes away? Who goes away favoring his tweets?

4630
03:54:36,520 --> 03:54:39,400
Speaker 2: I imagine I know somebody who lost their job at

4631
03:54:39,440 --> 03:54:42,200
Speaker 2: a grocery store because they got arrested protesting for like

4632
03:54:42,440 --> 03:54:44,080
Speaker 2: protesting against police violence.

4633
03:54:45,480 --> 03:54:50,560
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, meanwhile, Bill Crystal's like a guest on an media show.

4634
03:54:50,680 --> 03:54:56,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's Bill. What do you think I mean, Yeah,

4635
03:54:56,440 --> 03:54:59,480
Speaker 2: it's it's frustrating. Every now and then, far too seldom

4636
03:54:59,560 --> 03:55:02,560
Speaker 2: you get a story like that billionaire Russian arms dealer

4637
03:55:02,600 --> 03:55:05,160
Speaker 2: who's yacht got partially sunk. But there's like three of

4638
03:55:05,240 --> 03:55:09,640
Speaker 2: those stories for every thousand kissingers. Yeah, and they don't

4639
03:55:09,680 --> 03:55:11,600
Speaker 2: ever mean anything because that guy can afford to fix

4640
03:55:11,640 --> 03:55:12,280
Speaker 2: his fucking yacht.

4641
03:55:12,440 --> 03:55:15,920
Speaker 3: So, yes, when they were they were egging Bezos's boat,

4642
03:55:15,920 --> 03:55:18,200
Speaker 3: when when he was getting that bridge torn down, Yeah,

4643
03:55:18,280 --> 03:55:23,480
Speaker 3: you're like, I mean people, Yeah, it's like, yeah, he's

4644
03:55:23,520 --> 03:55:25,880
Speaker 3: gonna have someone hoes it down, and that he's fine.

4645
03:55:27,600 --> 03:55:30,880
Speaker 3: You look, yachts burn. We know yes, we've it.

4646
03:55:31,040 --> 03:55:34,240
Speaker 2: They burn, that's the thing. Yachts burn, and so do

4647
03:55:34,440 --> 03:55:37,040
Speaker 2: Bill Crystals. Bill Crystal, I think.

4648
03:55:36,880 --> 03:55:39,760
Speaker 3: It's like anals. No, yeah, actually when you burn and

4649
03:55:39,800 --> 03:55:41,360
Speaker 3: he just turns into a few crystals.

4650
03:55:43,400 --> 03:55:43,440
Speaker 1: So.

4651
03:55:43,800 --> 03:55:47,200
Speaker 2: Greg Grandon, author of Kissinger's Shadow, sees the bombing campaign

4652
03:55:47,240 --> 03:55:49,480
Speaker 2: in Cambodia and Lao is the terminal phase in what

4653
03:55:49,600 --> 03:55:52,760
Speaker 2: he calls the crack up of America's domestic consensus, which

4654
03:55:52,760 --> 03:55:56,520
Speaker 2: had begun under Johnson. Kissinger considered conditions in the country

4655
03:55:56,560 --> 03:55:58,400
Speaker 2: at the time of Kent State to be quote near

4656
03:55:58,520 --> 03:56:02,000
Speaker 2: civil war conditions. The paranoia Nixon had felt led him

4657
03:56:02,000 --> 03:56:05,160
Speaker 2: to push for illegal expansions of domestic surveillance, which eventually

4658
03:56:05,240 --> 03:56:08,240
Speaker 2: led to his ouster from office. The Senate investigation into

4659
03:56:08,280 --> 03:56:11,560
Speaker 2: the Watergate scandal concluded quote Kent State marked a turning

4660
03:56:11,600 --> 03:56:14,960
Speaker 2: point for Nixon, the beginning of his downhill slide towards Watergate.

4661
03:56:15,800 --> 03:56:19,200
Speaker 2: Nixon grew increasingly unhinged, which is a story for another time.

4662
03:56:21,960 --> 03:56:23,320
Speaker 3: Nixon's starting to lose a gang.

4663
03:56:23,520 --> 03:56:25,480
Speaker 2: It is worth noting that for all of the things

4664
03:56:25,520 --> 03:56:28,320
Speaker 2: happening at this point, Nixon is as a rule, anytime

4665
03:56:28,360 --> 03:56:31,440
Speaker 2: I quote him and Kissinger talking, Nixon is as a rule,

4666
03:56:31,760 --> 03:56:34,200
Speaker 2: drunker than you have ever been. Like then you have

4667
03:56:34,440 --> 03:56:37,320
Speaker 2: ever been. I don't care how drunk you've gotten, you

4668
03:56:37,400 --> 03:56:41,760
Speaker 2: have never gotten. Nixon in the White House hammered. So,

4669
03:56:42,920 --> 03:56:46,000
Speaker 2: with Kissinger's help, Nixon cooks up a plan to pursue

4670
03:56:46,000 --> 03:56:49,280
Speaker 2: an arms control treaty in order to discredit his political rivals.

4671
03:56:49,600 --> 03:56:52,040
Speaker 2: Kissinger agreed that attacking the left was the right way

4672
03:56:52,080 --> 03:56:54,760
Speaker 2: to distract from the disaster they'd created in Southeast Asia.

4673
03:56:55,040 --> 03:56:57,440
Speaker 2: He told his boss, we've got to break the back

4674
03:56:57,520 --> 03:57:01,200
Speaker 2: of this generation of Democratic leaders. Had responded an agreement,

4675
03:57:01,400 --> 03:57:03,560
Speaker 2: we've got to destroy the confidence of the people in

4676
03:57:03,600 --> 03:57:07,160
Speaker 2: the American establishment. Good news on that one, buddy. Yeah,

4677
03:57:07,640 --> 03:57:13,080
Speaker 2: I mean, you know what a rare swish and he's

4678
03:57:13,160 --> 03:57:15,200
Speaker 2: drunk and he's right. Yeah, that is a hole in

4679
03:57:15,320 --> 03:57:19,880
Speaker 2: one for you, my friend. No nuts so prescient.

4680
03:57:20,080 --> 03:57:20,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

4681
03:57:20,960 --> 03:57:23,320
Speaker 2: Re Election in nineteen seventy two was always going to

4682
03:57:23,360 --> 03:57:26,320
Speaker 2: be dicey for Nixon and Kissinger. Nixon's plan was the

4683
03:57:26,400 --> 03:57:30,240
Speaker 2: infamous Southern strategy, cultivating racial resentment in order to turn

4684
03:57:30,360 --> 03:57:33,200
Speaker 2: whites into a reliable Republican voting block. There's a lot

4685
03:57:33,240 --> 03:57:35,680
Speaker 2: to be said about this. Obviously, we were just kind

4686
03:57:35,680 --> 03:57:37,840
Speaker 2: of breezing past it. But part of the strategy, part

4687
03:57:37,840 --> 03:57:40,560
Speaker 2: of his strategy for doing this, to get these Southern

4688
03:57:40,600 --> 03:57:43,320
Speaker 2: whites on his side, was to continue carpet bombing huge

4689
03:57:43,400 --> 03:57:46,320
Speaker 2: chunks of Southeast Asia, even though this had no impact

4690
03:57:46,400 --> 03:57:49,240
Speaker 2: on the war's course, and he knew it. Grandon described

4691
03:57:49,280 --> 03:57:52,440
Speaker 2: the continued bombing as quote blood tribute paid to the

4692
03:57:52,480 --> 03:57:55,240
Speaker 2: growing power of the American right, and.

4693
03:57:55,400 --> 03:57:59,720
Speaker 3: As yeah, just and I mean it is like I mean, you,

4694
03:58:00,200 --> 03:58:03,120
Speaker 3: it's what our politics is now, which is just constantly

4695
03:58:03,880 --> 03:58:06,520
Speaker 3: the optics on how to get re elected. It's just

4696
03:58:06,600 --> 03:58:08,840
Speaker 3: the number crunch on how do you get reelected by

4697
03:58:08,920 --> 03:58:12,520
Speaker 3: doing things illegally or you know, shifting priority whatever it is.

4698
03:58:13,080 --> 03:58:17,840
Speaker 3: Butasking you, yeah, yeah, whatever it is. I mean, you know,

4699
03:58:18,320 --> 03:58:21,160
Speaker 3: like we all know that war helps pull numbers, so

4700
03:58:21,840 --> 03:58:25,040
Speaker 3: well some of them do. Yeah, right, But I mean

4701
03:58:25,120 --> 03:58:27,160
Speaker 3: in the in the short term, it seems like it's

4702
03:58:27,240 --> 03:58:29,520
Speaker 3: it's a short there's a short term gain to be made,

4703
03:58:29,680 --> 03:58:30,320
Speaker 3: certainly if.

4704
03:58:30,240 --> 03:58:34,440
Speaker 2: You're on the right, for sure. Yeah, And it's it

4705
03:58:34,840 --> 03:58:38,320
Speaker 2: is worth noting because I always had this idea, even

4706
03:58:38,720 --> 03:58:41,600
Speaker 2: at past the point where I stopped believing Henry Kissinger

4707
03:58:41,800 --> 03:58:45,880
Speaker 2: was a hero, that he was doing what he was

4708
03:58:45,960 --> 03:58:48,760
Speaker 2: doing in Southeast Asia because there were like very specific

4709
03:58:48,920 --> 03:58:51,240
Speaker 2: wonky things he believed about the conduct of the war

4710
03:58:51,360 --> 03:58:52,960
Speaker 2: and how to win it. It was just like willing

4711
03:58:53,040 --> 03:58:55,880
Speaker 2: to do these horrible things. But no, they know what's

4712
03:58:55,920 --> 03:58:57,880
Speaker 2: not winning the war. This is for votes.

4713
03:58:58,280 --> 03:59:03,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Kissinger they yeah, So, I mean you're basically

4714
03:59:03,320 --> 03:59:09,000
Speaker 4: just saying it is just a white supremacist thing.

4715
03:59:09,160 --> 03:59:13,680
Speaker 5: They're killing people of color to make whites in the

4716
03:59:13,800 --> 03:59:14,400
Speaker 5: South happy.

4717
03:59:15,080 --> 03:59:18,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's all we're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, m hmm. Yeah,

4718
03:59:19,040 --> 03:59:21,640
Speaker 3: that's supremacist the country. But that doesn't fit on a

4719
03:59:21,720 --> 03:59:22,760
Speaker 3: lawn placard.

4720
03:59:23,600 --> 03:59:26,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, get one of those, like in this in this house,

4721
03:59:26,440 --> 03:59:27,400
Speaker 2: we believe in.

4722
03:59:27,480 --> 03:59:32,080
Speaker 3: The nick administration. We believe in covering up doubling down

4723
03:59:32,120 --> 03:59:34,800
Speaker 3: on racism in order to And so it's.

4724
03:59:34,680 --> 03:59:38,880
Speaker 2: Worth noting too Kissinger isn't just micromanaging the the actual

4725
03:59:39,000 --> 03:59:41,520
Speaker 2: racist bombing campaign that they're doing to get votes. He

4726
03:59:41,720 --> 03:59:44,680
Speaker 2: is also the frontman Nixon sends out to talk to

4727
03:59:44,880 --> 03:59:48,000
Speaker 2: right wing leaders to try and like pump them up

4728
03:59:48,000 --> 03:59:50,600
Speaker 2: about this. Nixon sent him to talk to Ronald Reagan,

4729
03:59:50,720 --> 03:59:54,200
Speaker 2: then the governor of California. Kissinger sat down on Nixon's

4730
03:59:54,240 --> 03:59:57,520
Speaker 2: behalf with Billy Graham with William F. Buckley, with Bob Hooking,

4731
03:59:57,680 --> 04:00:01,640
Speaker 2: name God. His pattern went like this. The President wanted

4732
04:00:01,680 --> 04:00:03,080
Speaker 2: me to give you a brief call to tell you

4733
04:00:03,200 --> 04:00:05,240
Speaker 2: that with all the hysteria on TV and in the

4734
04:00:05,320 --> 04:00:07,800
Speaker 2: news on LAO, we feel we have set up everything

4735
04:00:07,880 --> 04:00:10,880
Speaker 2: we set out to do. Destroyed more supplies than in

4736
04:00:11,000 --> 04:00:14,280
Speaker 2: Cambodia last year, set them back many months. We achieved

4737
04:00:14,320 --> 04:00:15,000
Speaker 2: what we were after.

4738
04:00:15,240 --> 04:00:17,280
Speaker 3: Well, I tell you, I really am. I can't wait

4739
04:00:17,320 --> 04:00:18,200
Speaker 3: to go out there and rally.

4740
04:00:18,240 --> 04:00:21,920
Speaker 4: That was true, Sir Hank having just been doing some research.

4741
04:00:22,200 --> 04:00:26,200
Speaker 4: He is friends with Frank Sinatra. Frank would call him

4742
04:00:26,200 --> 04:00:26,640
Speaker 4: on the phone.

4743
04:00:26,880 --> 04:00:29,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds right, That fucking sounds right.

4744
04:00:29,760 --> 04:00:32,240
Speaker 3: When I get a nuclear weapon? Is that possible?

4745
04:00:34,120 --> 04:00:35,480
Speaker 2: Frank Sinatra with a nuke?

4746
04:00:35,600 --> 04:00:36,240
Speaker 3: That's yeah.

4747
04:00:36,280 --> 04:00:38,320
Speaker 2: There's no people left if that had happened.

4748
04:00:38,040 --> 04:00:41,280
Speaker 3: I imagine on Dean Martin's drink, and he didn't notice.

4749
04:00:41,360 --> 04:00:46,560
Speaker 2: Baby Kissinger spent a particularly long time bragging to Ronald

4750
04:00:46,600 --> 04:00:50,280
Speaker 2: Reagan about the administration's achievements. Quote, we wouldn't have had Cambodia,

4751
04:00:50,400 --> 04:00:52,200
Speaker 2: we wouldn't have had LAO, and we wouldn't have had

4752
04:00:52,240 --> 04:00:55,080
Speaker 2: an eighty billion dollar defense budget, you know, without Nixon

4753
04:00:55,120 --> 04:00:58,960
Speaker 2: getting elected. He also told Reagan, we wouldn't have had Amchitka.

4754
04:00:59,640 --> 04:00:59,680
Speaker 9: No.

4755
04:01:00,080 --> 04:01:02,040
Speaker 2: Chica is an island off the coast of Alaska in

4756
04:01:02,040 --> 04:01:04,280
Speaker 2: the early nineteen seventies. The White House wanted to nuke

4757
04:01:04,320 --> 04:01:06,040
Speaker 2: it for a lot of complicated reasons.

4758
04:01:06,360 --> 04:01:08,680
Speaker 4: Maybe I get that. Yeah, this is one thing.

4759
04:01:08,720 --> 04:01:13,880
Speaker 2: I'm actually I was from, not other islands, but specifically Amchitka. Yeah,

4760
04:01:14,640 --> 04:01:20,920
Speaker 2: we're like am Shitka. So the White House wants to

4761
04:01:21,040 --> 04:01:23,800
Speaker 2: nuke this island off the coast of Alaska. And as

4762
04:01:23,840 --> 04:01:27,520
Speaker 2: you have like environmentalists and indigenous people, just folks who's brain.

4763
04:01:28,320 --> 04:01:34,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, freedom, I hate freedom.

4764
04:01:34,840 --> 04:01:38,120
Speaker 2: Here's Greg Grandon again. The test had no military or

4765
04:01:38,160 --> 04:01:40,440
Speaker 2: scientific benefit, but was seen as something of a ritual

4766
04:01:40,520 --> 04:01:43,120
Speaker 2: by the right fireworks to celebrate the end of Johnson's

4767
04:01:43,160 --> 04:01:47,320
Speaker 2: presidency when many Hawks, like Curtis LeMay, felt the United

4768
04:01:47,320 --> 04:01:50,160
Speaker 2: States had fallen behind on nuclear development. Then, when public

4769
04:01:50,200 --> 04:01:52,640
Speaker 2: opposition to the detonation began to grow, Nixon had a

4770
04:01:52,720 --> 04:01:55,680
Speaker 2: chance to show conservatives that he would stand up to liberals.

4771
04:01:56,040 --> 04:01:58,400
Speaker 2: He let me known that we're the Supreme Court to

4772
04:01:58,480 --> 04:02:01,160
Speaker 2: issue an injunction against the test. He would go forward anyway.

4773
04:02:01,960 --> 04:02:04,800
Speaker 2: Didn't block the test but Haldman told Kissinger to play

4774
04:02:04,800 --> 04:02:08,320
Speaker 2: it for politics anyway. Tell Reagan, we're taking an unmitigated heat.

4775
04:02:08,360 --> 04:02:10,240
Speaker 2: In order to keep that thing going, we need all

4776
04:02:10,280 --> 04:02:12,920
Speaker 2: the support of the right. Later after the test was conducted,

4777
04:02:13,120 --> 04:02:15,720
Speaker 2: Nixon met with Senator Barry Goldwater and mocked the fears

4778
04:02:15,720 --> 04:02:19,000
Speaker 2: of environmentalists. The seals are still swimming. The President said,

4779
04:02:19,200 --> 04:02:21,320
Speaker 2: I'm damn proud of you. Goldwater told him.

4780
04:02:22,800 --> 04:02:25,320
Speaker 3: I need to get a bucket to Barfin.

4781
04:02:25,840 --> 04:02:30,560
Speaker 4: When people when people think like, oh, we've become dumb recently,

4782
04:02:30,760 --> 04:02:33,280
Speaker 4: we've always been so fucking stupid.

4783
04:02:33,760 --> 04:02:37,240
Speaker 5: It cannot be emphasized enough. We're just really dumb.

4784
04:02:37,520 --> 04:02:43,480
Speaker 3: I honestly, I definitely thought that we've I mean, it

4785
04:02:43,600 --> 04:02:46,200
Speaker 3: is a shocking level of dumb. It's the fact that

4786
04:02:46,280 --> 04:02:49,800
Speaker 3: it's just this dumb. Yeah, it's just been going on

4787
04:02:49,920 --> 04:02:55,920
Speaker 3: the island because because they wanted the fireworks. Yeah, because

4788
04:02:55,960 --> 04:02:57,360
Speaker 3: he wanted fireworks.

4789
04:02:57,480 --> 04:03:00,960
Speaker 4: And it's as they could tell Reagan, it's like his

4790
04:03:01,200 --> 04:03:05,920
Speaker 4: gender reveal fucking party, like right right, Jesus Christ, the bomb.

4791
04:03:06,560 --> 04:03:09,040
Speaker 2: It is worth noting for the sake of talking about

4792
04:03:09,080 --> 04:03:13,400
Speaker 2: how dumb we still are today. Curtis LeMay, who was

4793
04:03:13,440 --> 04:03:15,120
Speaker 2: one of the people cheering on the bombing of this

4794
04:03:15,240 --> 04:03:19,320
Speaker 2: random island is essentially the hero of Malcolm Gladwell's book

4795
04:03:19,360 --> 04:03:22,520
Speaker 2: The Bomber Mafia, which talks about how cool the bombing

4796
04:03:22,520 --> 04:03:24,680
Speaker 2: apparatus we set up was and how it helped keep

4797
04:03:24,800 --> 04:03:28,800
Speaker 2: things peaceful and built the wonderful packs Americana. That that's

4798
04:03:28,920 --> 04:03:32,400
Speaker 2: I'm sure these Cambodian civilians we've talked about appreciate it.

4799
04:03:32,880 --> 04:03:34,600
Speaker 3: Well, that's the one where you need to Once you

4800
04:03:34,720 --> 04:03:37,440
Speaker 3: have ten thousand bombs, you're an expert. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

4801
04:03:37,520 --> 04:03:37,840
Speaker 3: That's right.

4802
04:03:37,920 --> 04:03:40,920
Speaker 2: If you drop ten thousand bombs, you're a bombing Yeah,

4803
04:03:41,040 --> 04:03:44,240
Speaker 2: that's right. That's exactly. So in order to be able

4804
04:03:44,280 --> 04:03:46,760
Speaker 2: to do it right, yeah, you have to do it wrong.

4805
04:03:46,880 --> 04:03:48,800
Speaker 2: For those bomb you gotta.

4806
04:03:48,640 --> 04:03:49,480
Speaker 3: Log the bombs.

4807
04:03:49,600 --> 04:03:54,600
Speaker 2: That's exactly right here. So part of what made Kissinger remarkable, though,

4808
04:03:54,720 --> 04:03:57,320
Speaker 2: was his ability to rope conservatives in line for mass

4809
04:03:57,400 --> 04:04:00,480
Speaker 2: murder while also charming the entire liberalistat plishment of the

4810
04:04:00,520 --> 04:04:03,600
Speaker 2: East Coast. Nixon's chief of staff later recalled we knew

4811
04:04:03,640 --> 04:04:05,840
Speaker 2: Henry is the Hawk of hawks in the Oval office,

4812
04:04:06,080 --> 04:04:09,240
Speaker 2: But in the evenings, a magical transformation took place. Touching

4813
04:04:09,280 --> 04:04:11,800
Speaker 2: glasses at a party with his liberal friends. The belligerent

4814
04:04:11,880 --> 04:04:15,000
Speaker 2: Kissinger would suddenly become a dove, and the press, beguiled

4815
04:04:15,040 --> 04:04:17,800
Speaker 2: by Henry's charm in humor, bought it. They just couldn't

4816
04:04:17,800 --> 04:04:21,400
Speaker 2: believe that the intellectual, smiling, humorous Henry the Ka was

4817
04:04:21,440 --> 04:04:25,120
Speaker 2: a hawk like that bastard Nixon. It really is all

4818
04:04:25,200 --> 04:04:29,800
Speaker 2: about like if if if Donald Trump had had talked

4819
04:04:29,880 --> 04:04:32,600
Speaker 2: like an Aaron Sorkin character and like quoted books that

4820
04:04:32,680 --> 04:04:35,720
Speaker 2: people don't read but know are smart books, he would

4821
04:04:35,760 --> 04:04:38,000
Speaker 2: have been the most popular president in a generation.

4822
04:04:38,560 --> 04:04:42,360
Speaker 3: Like well, and I mean that'll happen. Yeah, No, one

4823
04:04:42,360 --> 04:04:43,160
Speaker 3: of them will figure it out.

4824
04:04:43,240 --> 04:04:48,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, cracked, And you gotta dial the racism down

4825
04:04:48,520 --> 04:04:51,120
Speaker 2: a little, you gotta dial the polite up and then

4826
04:04:51,240 --> 04:04:55,360
Speaker 2: kind of equalize them, and then you can yeah, and then.

4827
04:04:55,880 --> 04:04:58,720
Speaker 3: And then the right access to the right people in media.

4828
04:04:58,880 --> 04:05:01,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I mean we already saw that. I

4829
04:05:01,360 --> 04:05:03,120
Speaker 2: mean even under Trump, where you've got all these fucking

4830
04:05:03,200 --> 04:05:06,480
Speaker 2: reporters who had these like bombshells about horrible crimes being

4831
04:05:06,520 --> 04:05:09,040
Speaker 2: committed that they didn't release for a year in change

4832
04:05:09,040 --> 04:05:10,080
Speaker 2: because they got a book deal.

4833
04:05:10,600 --> 04:05:13,840
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, right right, yeah, yeah, I mean John Bolton

4834
04:05:13,960 --> 04:05:15,480
Speaker 3: was basically just there to write a book.

4835
04:05:15,720 --> 04:05:19,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone was. The whole administration was. Yeah, they're like

4836
04:05:19,360 --> 04:05:24,600
Speaker 2: fucking navy seals with the books. Yeah. So, Kissinger's reputation

4837
04:05:24,760 --> 04:05:27,080
Speaker 2: was as a brilliant, computer brained policy wonk, but his

4838
04:05:27,160 --> 04:05:29,440
Speaker 2: success came from his charm. He was able to win

4839
04:05:29,560 --> 04:05:32,040
Speaker 2: reporters over with a mix of leaks and effusive praise

4840
04:05:32,080 --> 04:05:34,600
Speaker 2: for their work, something that made them feel like insiders

4841
04:05:34,640 --> 04:05:37,480
Speaker 2: and thus sympathetic. He had a regular series of lunches

4842
04:05:37,520 --> 04:05:40,600
Speaker 2: with Arthur Slshinger, a liberal historian, whom he made sure

4843
04:05:40,680 --> 04:05:43,840
Speaker 2: to confidentially inform quote, I have been thinking a lot

4844
04:05:43,920 --> 04:05:47,800
Speaker 2: about resignation after the invasion of Cambodia. Slushinger was not

4845
04:05:47,960 --> 04:05:50,320
Speaker 2: privy to the information that proved Kissinger had planned the

4846
04:05:50,360 --> 04:05:53,120
Speaker 2: whole thing, so he believed Kissinger when Henry said that

4847
04:05:53,160 --> 04:05:56,080
Speaker 2: he'd only kept working for Nixon to prevent more damage

4848
04:05:56,120 --> 04:06:00,320
Speaker 2: to quote institutions of authority. Kissinger would warn his liberal

4849
04:06:00,360 --> 04:06:04,280
Speaker 2: friends that if he resigned, Spiro Agnew would run foreign policy.

4850
04:06:04,640 --> 04:06:07,000
Speaker 2: He was basically threatening, if I'm not here, the far

4851
04:06:07,160 --> 04:06:09,560
Speaker 2: right's going to be totally in power in foreign policy.

4852
04:06:09,560 --> 04:06:11,880
Speaker 2: I'm the only one keeping things from going crazy.

4853
04:06:12,120 --> 04:06:14,440
Speaker 3: It's like sessions and with Trump. I mean there are

4854
04:06:14,520 --> 04:06:16,800
Speaker 3: multiple people like that, but the amount of times when

4855
04:06:16,840 --> 04:06:18,800
Speaker 3: people would be like, oh, McMasters, you know, these are

4856
04:06:18,840 --> 04:06:20,240
Speaker 3: the good guys inside of the you.

4857
04:06:20,280 --> 04:06:23,760
Speaker 2: Know, but this too as he's drawing on a map

4858
04:06:23,840 --> 04:06:27,640
Speaker 2: where to annihilate. Yeah, oh yeah, and it works. It

4859
04:06:27,840 --> 04:06:31,000
Speaker 2: always works. It works, and it works over and over

4860
04:06:31,160 --> 04:06:34,720
Speaker 2: and over again. As a rule, if their job is

4861
04:06:34,840 --> 04:06:37,920
Speaker 2: to be a journalist who spends their time face to

4862
04:06:38,000 --> 04:06:41,440
Speaker 2: face with powerful people, they're bad at their job. As

4863
04:06:41,480 --> 04:06:44,720
Speaker 2: a rule, every now and then you get an exception, but.

4864
04:06:44,840 --> 04:06:47,680
Speaker 3: As a rule, no, it's like when Chomsky points out

4865
04:06:47,680 --> 04:06:50,200
Speaker 3: to that reporter that he has the rye, he's sitting

4866
04:06:50,240 --> 04:06:50,760
Speaker 3: in that seat.

4867
04:06:50,880 --> 04:06:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get the odd people who are willing to

4868
04:06:53,720 --> 04:06:55,560
Speaker 2: like report on the Penanon papers or whatever, and like

4869
04:06:55,640 --> 04:06:57,640
Speaker 2: do you know you get or the Afghanistan papers with

4870
04:06:57,800 --> 04:07:00,440
Speaker 2: the Washington Post. Not to not to down play the

4871
04:07:00,520 --> 04:07:02,560
Speaker 2: fact that there are people in those institutions who do

4872
04:07:03,200 --> 04:07:07,760
Speaker 2: do damning reports on power, but also the level of

4873
04:07:07,840 --> 04:07:10,920
Speaker 2: complicity within the broader media apparatus means that even when

4874
04:07:10,960 --> 04:07:12,800
Speaker 2: you get a damning report on, for example, the war

4875
04:07:12,840 --> 04:07:15,080
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan, which the Washington Post, if you've read that

4876
04:07:16,320 --> 04:07:17,520
Speaker 2: it's utterly damning.

4877
04:07:17,920 --> 04:07:20,840
Speaker 3: Been do anything doesn't matter. Yeah, like this doesn't stop

4878
04:07:20,880 --> 04:07:24,080
Speaker 3: anything very I mean, you know, and the reason why

4879
04:07:24,680 --> 04:07:27,280
Speaker 3: people do it less and less is because you're attacked. So,

4880
04:07:28,080 --> 04:07:30,800
Speaker 3: I mean it works. The public attacks discredit you, and

4881
04:07:30,880 --> 04:07:33,160
Speaker 3: then you are you are what you are, You're no

4882
04:07:33,320 --> 04:07:35,720
Speaker 3: longer you no longer get access to that information.

4883
04:07:35,960 --> 04:07:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great. So A good example of how Kissos

4884
04:07:39,280 --> 04:07:41,320
Speaker 2: used his charm is a speech he gave at MIT

4885
04:07:41,520 --> 04:07:44,000
Speaker 2: in January of nineteen seventy one. He started off by

4886
04:07:44,040 --> 04:07:47,680
Speaker 2: feigning a confidential air and telling the students that Nixon

4887
04:07:47,720 --> 04:07:50,200
Speaker 2: had not been his quote first choice, but that in

4888
04:07:50,320 --> 04:07:52,360
Speaker 2: time he'd come to see the bombing of Cambodia as

4889
04:07:52,400 --> 04:07:56,120
Speaker 2: the only quote sensible path towards the Vietnamization. Vietnamization is

4890
04:07:56,200 --> 04:07:57,840
Speaker 2: like the process of the US getting out in South

4891
04:07:57,880 --> 04:08:00,520
Speaker 2: Vietnam taking over, Right, that's the big buzz Nixon and

4892
04:08:00,800 --> 04:08:03,760
Speaker 2: his jury using. When one student asked him what it

4893
04:08:03,760 --> 04:08:06,400
Speaker 2: would take to make him resign from the Nixon administration,

4894
04:08:06,720 --> 04:08:10,240
Speaker 2: Kissinger said he wouldn't quote unless gas chambers were set

4895
04:08:10,320 --> 04:08:12,280
Speaker 2: up or some horrendous moral outrage.

4896
04:08:12,680 --> 04:08:16,240
Speaker 3: What wait, wait, what is it? What does that mean? Exactly?

4897
04:08:16,320 --> 04:08:19,320
Speaker 2: He wouldn't get out unless and less Nixon was setting

4898
04:08:19,400 --> 04:08:20,440
Speaker 2: up gas chambers.

4899
04:08:20,720 --> 04:08:26,080
Speaker 3: I mean, what the fuck? U child? His childhood didn't

4900
04:08:26,080 --> 04:08:30,560
Speaker 3: affect him in any way. Yeah, outrageous, And it's confidence

4901
04:08:31,080 --> 04:08:31,640
Speaker 3: the student.

4902
04:08:31,880 --> 04:08:34,640
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because then the student who asked this

4903
04:08:34,800 --> 04:08:37,560
Speaker 2: question of Kissinger later realized, like, is there really a

4904
04:08:37,640 --> 04:08:41,520
Speaker 2: difference between forcing people into a gas chamber and incinerating

4905
04:08:41,560 --> 04:08:44,240
Speaker 2: from them from the sky with a bombing campaign. I

4906
04:08:44,320 --> 04:08:47,000
Speaker 2: guess not. But at the moment, this doesn't really occur

4907
04:08:47,080 --> 04:08:48,920
Speaker 2: to him. And at the moment he writes quote, he

4908
04:08:49,040 --> 04:08:52,720
Speaker 2: had sounded so sincere, so sympathetic, so much one of us,

4909
04:08:53,120 --> 04:08:54,960
Speaker 2: and right' I'll blame the journalists, like I'm not going

4910
04:08:55,040 --> 04:08:56,880
Speaker 2: to blame a student for falling for Henry, because like

4911
04:08:56,920 --> 04:09:00,520
Speaker 2: he's essentially still a child, And Henry Kissinger is the

4912
04:09:00,600 --> 04:09:02,560
Speaker 2: most powerful man in the world. Of course, he's good

4913
04:09:02,600 --> 04:09:06,880
Speaker 2: at wat talking circles around these fucking kids. The week

4914
04:09:07,040 --> 04:09:09,840
Speaker 2: after that speech, Kissinger and Nixon sent ground troops into

4915
04:09:09,920 --> 04:09:13,200
Speaker 2: Lao after another massive round of aerial bombardment. This involved

4916
04:09:13,240 --> 04:09:16,480
Speaker 2: seventeen thousand South Vietnamese troops supported by US air power.

4917
04:09:16,840 --> 04:09:20,200
Speaker 2: It was a catastrophe. Eight thousand South Vietnamese soldiers were

4918
04:09:20,240 --> 04:09:22,600
Speaker 2: killed or wounded. The United States lost two hundred and

4919
04:09:22,640 --> 04:09:25,840
Speaker 2: fifteen men. Nixon considered it a victory because it played

4920
04:09:25,840 --> 04:09:27,800
Speaker 2: well with conservatives in the media.

4921
04:09:28,080 --> 04:09:28,200
Speaker 9: Fu.

4922
04:09:28,560 --> 04:09:32,720
Speaker 3: Oh god, and he's drunk, and he's drunk, and he's

4923
04:09:32,880 --> 04:09:34,520
Speaker 3: he is that's pretty good.

4924
04:09:36,080 --> 04:09:40,160
Speaker 2: He just pounded back an entire bottle of vodka before

4925
04:09:40,240 --> 04:09:44,120
Speaker 2: saying that. When the media savaged Lao as a pointless bloodbath,

4926
04:09:44,200 --> 04:09:47,280
Speaker 2: Kissinger ran to his boss and complained about vicious coverage,

4927
04:09:47,400 --> 04:09:49,960
Speaker 2: saying if Britain had pressed like this in World War Two,

4928
04:09:50,000 --> 04:09:52,840
Speaker 2: they would have quit. In forty two. Both Kissinger and

4929
04:09:53,000 --> 04:09:55,400
Speaker 2: Nixon saw LAO as a win because it benefited their

4930
04:09:55,440 --> 04:09:58,360
Speaker 2: domestic chances of re election. As Nixon told his right

4931
04:09:58,400 --> 04:10:01,200
Speaker 2: hand man, the main thing on Lao, I don't care

4932
04:10:01,280 --> 04:10:01,920
Speaker 2: what happens there.

4933
04:10:02,040 --> 04:10:05,440
Speaker 3: It's a win. See a win. See he's a little

4934
04:10:05,480 --> 04:10:09,960
Speaker 3: gangstere that's right. Henry to Orange started coppers.

4935
04:10:10,560 --> 04:10:10,800
Speaker 11: Oh.

4936
04:10:11,360 --> 04:10:14,440
Speaker 2: And as the re election campaign turned forward, Kissinger was

4937
04:10:14,480 --> 04:10:19,400
Speaker 2: about to help his boss engineer another win. And this one, boy,

4938
04:10:19,440 --> 04:10:21,560
Speaker 2: how do you think we've seen a body count so far?

4939
04:10:22,880 --> 04:10:24,600
Speaker 5: My god, what the fuck?

4940
04:10:25,960 --> 04:10:30,600
Speaker 3: But that's still morning that island. So now they're in sweeps. Yeah.

4941
04:10:30,720 --> 04:10:34,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, now they're hitting sweeps. And if you think hundreds

4942
04:10:34,040 --> 04:10:36,520
Speaker 2: of thousands of cambodi and dead, plus aiding in the

4943
04:10:36,600 --> 04:10:38,000
Speaker 2: deaths of another millionaire.

4944
04:10:37,680 --> 04:10:38,640
Speaker 6: So was bad.

4945
04:10:38,960 --> 04:10:39,280
Speaker 1: It was.

4946
04:10:39,560 --> 04:10:42,760
Speaker 2: It's really bad. It's a historic crime. But also Henry

4947
04:10:42,800 --> 04:10:44,560
Speaker 2: Kissinger's just getting started.

4948
04:10:45,040 --> 04:10:50,960
Speaker 3: So I'm just you guys want to plug anything my

4949
04:10:51,120 --> 04:10:59,520
Speaker 3: ears death? Yea, I remember because when I did an

4950
04:10:59,520 --> 04:11:02,040
Speaker 3: episode on our podcast about Tim Leary and there's a

4951
04:11:02,120 --> 04:11:05,200
Speaker 3: lot of the you know, Nixon law and Order president

4952
04:11:05,240 --> 04:11:08,800
Speaker 3: stuff in there, and how drunk he was. But also

4953
04:11:08,920 --> 04:11:13,920
Speaker 3: his lunch every day was pineapple circles with cottage cheese

4954
04:11:13,960 --> 04:11:17,880
Speaker 3: in the middle, and so that was his that was

4955
04:11:17,960 --> 04:11:20,360
Speaker 3: his daily drunk lunch. And then there's the one night

4956
04:11:20,440 --> 04:11:23,320
Speaker 3: where he's starting to feel the heat. Well maybe I

4957
04:11:23,480 --> 04:11:24,960
Speaker 3: don't know if you'll get it into that. Well, he

4958
04:11:25,080 --> 04:11:28,840
Speaker 3: basically he goes out hammered with his valet and he

4959
04:11:28,960 --> 04:11:31,320
Speaker 3: goes and talks to some of the people protesting him,

4960
04:11:31,800 --> 04:11:33,160
Speaker 3: and like one of the he wakes one of these

4961
04:11:33,160 --> 04:11:35,040
Speaker 3: guys up and he's like, you really think I'm a

4962
04:11:35,080 --> 04:11:37,480
Speaker 3: bad guy, And the guy's just like, what the fuck

4963
04:11:37,600 --> 04:11:38,040
Speaker 3: is going on?

4964
04:11:38,280 --> 04:11:38,400
Speaker 11: Right?

4965
04:11:40,640 --> 04:11:48,280
Speaker 3: Nixon out cruising? Yeah, Well, we'll we as you know, Look,

4966
04:11:48,400 --> 04:11:51,160
Speaker 3: it sounds like the world loves America after hearing some

4967
04:11:51,280 --> 04:11:53,440
Speaker 3: of this stuff. So we will be going to Australia

4968
04:11:53,640 --> 04:11:56,760
Speaker 3: on a tour. You can go to dollapodcast dot com

4969
04:11:56,840 --> 04:12:01,200
Speaker 3: for those tour dates. We'll be touring America, and even

4970
04:12:01,360 --> 04:12:03,800
Speaker 3: if we do badly, we won't bomb as hard as

4971
04:12:03,840 --> 04:12:04,680
Speaker 3: Kissinger Nixon.

4972
04:12:04,840 --> 04:12:06,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it would be hard to.

4973
04:12:09,520 --> 04:12:10,360
Speaker 3: Bomb on that level.

4974
04:12:10,800 --> 04:12:12,920
Speaker 2: I honestly, we still have a lot of bombs. I

4975
04:12:12,960 --> 04:12:14,640
Speaker 2: don't know if we have enough bombs to bomb that

4976
04:12:14,760 --> 04:12:15,600
Speaker 2: hard anymore.

4977
04:12:15,760 --> 04:12:19,200
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I honestly think we could pull

4978
04:12:19,240 --> 04:12:21,360
Speaker 3: our pants down and fight with our penises and still

4979
04:12:21,400 --> 04:12:23,640
Speaker 3: people be like, that's not that I've seen. I've heard

4980
04:12:23,680 --> 04:12:24,480
Speaker 3: of Wor's bombings.

4981
04:12:24,800 --> 04:12:27,360
Speaker 2: I have seen a couple of cities leveled by American

4982
04:12:27,400 --> 04:12:29,880
Speaker 2: bombs at this point, and it's still not as much

4983
04:12:29,920 --> 04:12:31,920
Speaker 2: as fucking law got bombed.

4984
04:12:32,120 --> 04:12:37,600
Speaker 3: And christ yeah he cannot process it. And well I'm

4985
04:12:37,680 --> 04:12:39,560
Speaker 3: on the road to go to Garethronolds dot com for

4986
04:12:39,720 --> 04:12:45,640
Speaker 3: tour dates. Yeah, but feels feels wrong to do that. Yeah,

4987
04:12:45,680 --> 04:12:46,800
Speaker 3: hard promotion.

4988
04:12:47,200 --> 04:12:47,920
Speaker 4: Well it's great.

4989
04:12:47,920 --> 04:12:51,040
Speaker 2: I will put in a plug for the concept of

4990
04:12:51,120 --> 04:12:54,240
Speaker 2: death because as long as as long as men die.

4991
04:12:54,480 --> 04:12:57,600
Speaker 2: You know, there's all of these ghouls eventually had to

4992
04:12:57,720 --> 04:13:01,480
Speaker 2: face the end of of everything in the same way

4993
04:13:01,720 --> 04:13:04,720
Speaker 2: that that those people in Cambodia did. And one day

4994
04:13:04,720 --> 04:13:06,520
Speaker 2: it will come for Henry Kissinger and he will be

4995
04:13:06,640 --> 04:13:08,520
Speaker 2: frightened and alone and left.

4996
04:13:09,360 --> 04:13:11,440
Speaker 3: I feel like he bombed the reaper. I mean he

4997
04:13:11,720 --> 04:13:15,800
Speaker 3: like he is the level of melting. I mean he is.

4998
04:13:16,120 --> 04:13:16,960
Speaker 3: I hope he dies.

4999
04:13:17,200 --> 04:13:19,280
Speaker 4: I hope he just I hope he shits himself and

5000
04:13:19,320 --> 04:13:21,040
Speaker 4: then slowly dies over eight hours.

5001
04:13:21,360 --> 04:13:23,800
Speaker 3: Well, yes, it needs to be like that. He needs

5002
04:13:23,840 --> 04:13:25,040
Speaker 3: to be. It needs to be a letting.

5003
04:13:25,280 --> 04:13:27,720
Speaker 2: There's a you know, the one war criminal in all

5004
04:13:27,760 --> 04:13:29,840
Speaker 2: of history who got close to what he deserved is

5005
04:13:29,920 --> 04:13:33,320
Speaker 2: Ryan Hard Heydrich, the architect of the Holocaust, who stupidly

5006
04:13:33,680 --> 04:13:36,360
Speaker 2: charged a bunch of assassins and got wounded by a

5007
04:13:36,440 --> 04:13:40,240
Speaker 2: bomb and shatted into his own guts for several days

5008
04:13:40,320 --> 04:13:42,120
Speaker 2: until he died of sepsis over the course of a

5009
04:13:42,160 --> 04:13:46,200
Speaker 2: week and change. That's that's the kind of death. And

5010
04:13:46,320 --> 04:13:48,680
Speaker 2: and not just Kissinger. There's like thirty people we've named

5011
04:13:48,720 --> 04:13:52,040
Speaker 2: in this story. You deserve that kind of death. There's

5012
04:13:52,080 --> 04:13:55,200
Speaker 2: a lot of folks, I mean, pot died old and

5013
04:13:55,600 --> 04:13:59,000
Speaker 2: relatively you know, unpunished. You know, they all, most of

5014
04:13:59,040 --> 04:13:59,880
Speaker 2: them do at all that.

5015
04:14:00,320 --> 04:14:02,440
Speaker 3: It's great to hear a judge sentence Kissinger to that,

5016
04:14:02,720 --> 04:14:04,760
Speaker 3: like it would be you to shitting in your own

5017
04:14:04,800 --> 04:14:07,800
Speaker 3: guts for about a week after a bomb just embowels you.

5018
04:14:08,280 --> 04:14:11,600
Speaker 3: That's that's the right that's the right punishment for this

5019
04:14:11,800 --> 04:14:15,600
Speaker 3: kind of stuff, all right, Yeah, yeah.

5020
04:14:18,400 --> 04:14:21,040
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

5021
04:14:21,440 --> 04:14:24,680
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia

5022
04:14:24,880 --> 04:14:28,080
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

5023
04:14:28,160 --> 04:14:30,520
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.