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Speaker 1: When was the last time you heard somebody say something

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Speaker 1: optimistic about the Internet? All about you? But for me,

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Speaker 1: it's been a while, which sucks, because there was a time,

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Speaker 1: and I'm talking about the nineties and the two thousands

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Speaker 1: and even up into the early twenty tens, when a

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Speaker 1: lot of the conversation about the Internet and technology in

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Speaker 1: general was really idealistic.

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Speaker 2: Basically, what happened to the idea that the Internet was

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Speaker 2: this magical network everybody would be able to start their

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Speaker 2: own little thing and have pockets of wealth emerged all

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Speaker 2: over the country, not to mention make every country into

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Speaker 2: a democracy, not to mention make every creative person a star.

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Speaker 1: Tim Wu is a legal scholar who writes about monopolies,

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Speaker 1: and he is very critical of some of the big

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Speaker 1: tech companies like Google and Amazon and Meta, But he

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Speaker 1: didn't always feel that way. Back in those early inner days,

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Speaker 1: a lot of us really believed that tech was going

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Speaker 1: to change the world for the better.

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Speaker 2: Actually, at the very late part of that, I was

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Speaker 2: working in the Silicon Valley, so I was drinking the kool.

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Speaker 3: Aid from the firehose like straight on.

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Speaker 2: And before that, I was working in the US government

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Speaker 2: at the Supreme Court, my coke clerk. Actually my office

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Speaker 2: mate was Ketanji Jackson, who is now the.

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court Justice.

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Speaker 2: So we were friends, and you know, I got to

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Speaker 2: say we were very optimistic, but you know, it didn't

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Speaker 2: quite all work out the way we had thought.

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Speaker 1: Tim worked in the Biden administration advising on anti trust policies,

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Speaker 1: and he's now a law professor at Columbia. His most

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Speaker 1: recent project is a quest to understand how the Internet

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Speaker 1: went from this utopian vision to something that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people blame for everything that's wrong in the world,

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Speaker 1: and he wrote a book about it called The Age

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Speaker 1: of Extraction. So today's conversation is going to take us

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Speaker 1: from Bible versus to rap music, to some Israeli map

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Speaker 1: software that you've probably used without even realizing it, to

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Speaker 1: that feeling that you get when you smoke way too

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Speaker 1: much weed and you can't get up off the couch,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully by the end of it, you'll have a

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Speaker 1: better idea of what happened to that nineties Internet optimism,

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Speaker 1: why it didn't pan out, and maybe some things that

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Speaker 1: we could do about it. Right now, I'm afraid Kaleidoscope

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Speaker 1: and iHeart podcast this. This is kill Switch I'm Dexter Thomas.

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Speaker 1: I'm all right, So, I mean, I think you're talking

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Speaker 1: about this kind of stretch from late nineties into the

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Speaker 1: early two thousands. I mean, I remember, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: a kid growing up in Sanmadadino, California, but you're not

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Speaker 1: familiar with it. It's about an hour east of La

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Speaker 1: Nobody really goes there, right, and I'm feeling like, shoot,

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Speaker 1: I don't have to leave Sammonddino. Everything I want I

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Speaker 1: could find it on the Internet. I could learn to

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Speaker 1: do anything. I can connect with anybody. I remember the

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Speaker 1: first time I was talking with somebody on aim and

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Speaker 1: it was incredible. I can just talk to somebody on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the planet for free, you know,

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Speaker 1: as long as I pay the dial up bill, right,

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Speaker 1: And it seemed like something new was coming out every

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Speaker 1: year where I'm going to be able to just do

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Speaker 1: things that I never even thought were possible. And there

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Speaker 1: was definitely a time where everything felt optimistic, but the

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Speaker 1: optimism seemed realistic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah it did.

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Speaker 2: And you know, even going further back, I grew up

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Speaker 2: in a very kind of hippie environment.

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Speaker 3: I actually was living in Canada.

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Speaker 2: I went to a school where all the grades were

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Speaker 2: kind of combined into one. And you know, that was

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Speaker 2: its own kind of utopian movement back in the sixties

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Speaker 2: and seventies. And I think a lot of us thought

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Speaker 2: that the Internet was kind of the instantiation of a

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Speaker 2: lot of the ideas from that era. You know, you

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Speaker 2: were going to let people connect with each other, and

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Speaker 2: as soon as people connected, you know, of course there

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Speaker 2: would be peace. Right, all right, all violence and problems

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Speaker 2: are misunderstanding.

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Speaker 1: All we got to do is just talk to each other.

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Speaker 1: Will be good, Yeah, we'll be good.

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Speaker 2: I remember a friend of mine said, like, the Internet

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Speaker 2: is like Esperanto. Do you know Esperanto the language?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yes, I made the mistake of spending

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Speaker 1: about a couple weeks trying to learn Esperanto. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: but yes, so Esperanto basically the language that the idea was. Listen,

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Speaker 1: we need to leave aside all the national languages. We

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Speaker 1: create a new language, and that will allow for equality

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Speaker 1: because we'll all literally speak the same language, will all

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Speaker 1: actually be on the same page. That will lead us

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Speaker 1: into this really promising future. And some people really dedicated

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Speaker 1: themselves to.

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Speaker 3: It entire lives, entire lives.

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Speaker 2: And my friend had you know, saw the Internet as Esperanto,

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Speaker 2: the successful version, you know, like it had actually eliminated.

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Speaker 3: They believed all the.

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Speaker 2: Differences between computers and ultimately between us, and you know,

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Speaker 2: that was the original idea basically of cyberspace, which was

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Speaker 2: like this better world that was the like the Internet,

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Speaker 2: no one knows you're a dog era where you're going

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Speaker 2: to pretend to be like somebody else, and that would

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Speaker 2: be liberating. Maybe I'm just like whoever, I am like

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Speaker 2: half Asian dude, but in cyberspace, I don't know, like

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Speaker 2: a blue space alien or something.

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Speaker 1: Right, and that's a beautiful thing. Yeah right, Okay, Then

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Speaker 1: what happened? So as Tim was starting research for his book,

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Speaker 1: he looked at Google, not as in he was searching

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Speaker 1: up things on the Google search engine. He started looking

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Speaker 1: at Google LLC as a source, or at least as

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Speaker 1: a symbol of how tech companies went from seemingly visionary

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Speaker 1: to obviously exploitative.

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Speaker 2: There was Google. It started at a university at Stanford.

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Speaker 2: It was originally housed on some random computers. Then it

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Speaker 2: was in a garage, so it had all these kind

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Speaker 2: of idealistic settings. Their early talk was very idealistic. We

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Speaker 2: just want to organize the world's information.

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Speaker 3: There was this.

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Speaker 2: Idea they had that our main goal is to take

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Speaker 2: you where you need to go. We're not going to

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Speaker 2: hold on to you. We just want to show you

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Speaker 2: the way. Their slogan was don't be evil.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean I remember being a genuine fan of Google.

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Speaker 1: I mean I was like an unplayed employee. Man, Gmail

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Speaker 1: came out. I remember having my Gmail invice. You remember

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Speaker 1: that where you you They didn't give it to everybody,

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Speaker 1: so you had a limited amount of invites. Man, I

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Speaker 1: was passing those things out. Every new thing that Google

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Speaker 1: came out with. It felt like, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say a utopian future, but it felt like everything was

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Speaker 1: going to be interesting and amazing and convenient and helpful.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how can you argue against that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? No, I agree, and I shared that feeling.

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Speaker 2: I thought there was something very well intentioned about Google,

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Speaker 2: the early company. I mean, some of your listeners might

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Speaker 2: be like, what are they talking about?

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Speaker 1: Who are these Is there something wrong with them?

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Speaker 3: Right? But no, I think they're very well intentioned.

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Speaker 2: A lot of my friends who were like in another

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Speaker 2: era might have gone to work at nonprofits, went to

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Speaker 2: go work at Google because.

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Speaker 1: They believed in the mission.

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Speaker 2: They believed in it, and the early Google, you know,

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Speaker 2: didn't have a business model, and then they kind of

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Speaker 2: grudgingly took on advertising, but said all the stuff, how,

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Speaker 2: we're just gonna be totally different kind of advertising. It's

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Speaker 2: gonna be actually stuff you really.

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Speaker 3: Want because you're looking for it anyway.

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Speaker 2: So it's not gonna be annoying, it's not gonna be cluttery,

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Speaker 2: it's not gonna mess with things, you know.

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Speaker 3: The founders had.

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Speaker 2: Already written a paper where they said that advertising rex search,

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Speaker 2: so they were already on record on saying that like

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Speaker 2: paid search, where whoever pays most gets the top link,

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Speaker 2: is a terrible thing.

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Speaker 1: Actually, let's get specific about that paper. It came out

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight and it's titled The Anatomy of

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Speaker 1: a large Scale Hypertextual Web Search Engine. And in that paper,

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Speaker 1: Sergey Brandon Larry Page, the founders of Google, wrote the

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Speaker 1: following quote, the goals of the advertising business model do

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Speaker 1: not always correspond to providing quality search to users. And

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Speaker 1: later on they say that quote, we expect that advertising

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Speaker 1: funded so search engines will be inherently biased towards the

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Speaker 1: advertisers and away from the needs of the consumers. End quote. So,

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Speaker 1: just to summarize, almost thirty years ago, the founders of

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Speaker 1: Google said in public that ads would bias search engines

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Speaker 1: and make them worse.

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Speaker 3: So what happened.

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Speaker 2: So they started making money, and then they made this

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Speaker 2: decision in the early two thousands that they were going

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Speaker 2: to go public.

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Speaker 3: But they had this idea.

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Speaker 2: We're going to go public, but we're not going to

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Speaker 2: do it like normal.

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Speaker 3: We don't want to become evil.

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Speaker 2: So they wrote this big, long letter to their shareholders

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Speaker 2: and it starts with like, we're.

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Speaker 3: Not a normal company. We don't want to be a

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Speaker 3: normal company.

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Speaker 2: We're going to do all these things that are you're

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Speaker 2: going to think are terrible, like crazy projects. We're going

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Speaker 2: to care about our users, not our advertisers. Don't be

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Speaker 2: evil as our model, on and on and on.

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Speaker 1: In that two thousand and four letter, the founders wrote, quote,

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Speaker 1: Google is not a conventional company. You do not intend

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Speaker 1: to become one.

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Speaker 2: But but they still decided to become a regular for

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Speaker 2: profit Delaware corporation, which means that they're registered in Delaware,

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Speaker 2: which has basically the loosest requirements for a corporation and

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Speaker 2: is the standard in corporate America.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, standard, that is what conventional companies do. But

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Speaker 1: remember Google said they weren't conventional, and as Tim points out,

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Speaker 1: it didn't have to go that way.

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Speaker 2: They could have maybe done things differently at that point,

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Speaker 2: set up something either as a nonprofit if they really

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Speaker 2: believe this stuff, they could have been the kind of

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Speaker 2: corporation that is not necessarily for profit, what's called a

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Speaker 2: B corp, like Pantagonia. But they chose the normal Delaware

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Speaker 2: corporate form that every evil corporation in the world has,

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Speaker 2: and then you know, over the next ten or fifteen years,

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Speaker 2: they proceed to violate it, basically every promise in that letter,

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Speaker 2: and right the reason was, I mean, it's so predictable.

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Speaker 2: They had pressure to continually increase revenue, and ultimately that

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Speaker 2: meant they had, in fact, to treat advertisers better than

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Speaker 2: their users. That means they had to have more and

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Speaker 2: more and more ads. It means they had to cut

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Speaker 2: projects that didn't make sense. I mean, scripture says no

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Speaker 2: man can obey two masters, and they believed that they

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Speaker 2: were different. I think it's the original sin of Silicon Valley,

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Speaker 2: maybe of America, is that we have this belief that

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Speaker 2: we can have our cake and eat it too, obey

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Speaker 2: the interests of their users and consumers, and also their

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Speaker 2: advertisers and also their investors.

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Speaker 1: I believe that you're the first person on this show

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Speaker 1: to quote the Bible to me. But that's pretty appropriate

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Speaker 1: because in some ways, no, for real, it does feel

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Speaker 1: like we actually have straight from that light that felt

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Speaker 1: really you know, people were truly evangelical about the promises

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Speaker 1: of Silicon Valley, the promises of technology, but even specifically

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Speaker 1: about companies. I really remember, you know, myself being one

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Speaker 1: of them, felt really really optimistic about what Google was

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Speaker 1: doing and what Google could do in the future. For

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Speaker 1: most of us, though, I feel like they kind of

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Speaker 1: fell out of that light for us as a gradual process.

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Speaker 1: Most people probably couldn't tell you a time when they

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Speaker 1: stopped feeling good about Google. But you have a very

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Speaker 1: specific date that you point to in your book that

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Speaker 1: you feel like was a specific turning point a day.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's a second.

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Speaker 2: The first is the decision become a for profit company.

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Speaker 2: The second was June eleventh, twenty thirteen. That's the fall of.

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Speaker 3: The early Internet.

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Speaker 1: This is where things get interesting for me. The date

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Speaker 1: when tim says, the utopian promise of the early Internet

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Speaker 1: died forever. We'll get into why after the break. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So some background on that date of June eleventh, twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 1: So first we actually have to go back to two

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Speaker 1: thousand and six to a project made by an Israeli

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Speaker 1: programmer called FreeMap Israel. What made this project interesting was

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Speaker 1: not only that it was free and it helped you

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Speaker 1: with figuring out directions on where you wanted to go,

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Speaker 1: but that everything was crowdsourced, even the traffic information, and

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Speaker 1: this became its defining feature, and they had the tagline

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Speaker 1: out smarting traffic Together. Pretty soon FreeMap Israel had expanded

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Speaker 1: globally and had changed their name to something that you

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Speaker 1: might recognize, Ways. So Ways got popular pretty quickly because

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Speaker 1: of that crowdsourced information. It was genuinely useful. It would

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Speaker 1: warn you about an accident nearby or if police were

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Speaker 1: up ahead, so you could change your travel route or

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Speaker 1: your travels speed accordingly.

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Speaker 2: So it was emerging as a challenger to Google Maps.

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Speaker 2: And here you had these two kind of I guess

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Speaker 2: models of the future. So what happened in twenty thirteen

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Speaker 2: in June the contest was.

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Speaker 3: About to start.

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Speaker 2: It pitted Google, which had a more traditional map program,

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Speaker 2: against Ways, which was based on user contributions, and the

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Speaker 2: competition was on for the future, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: Google just bought Ways.

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Speaker 1: At this point in time, on one side, you had

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Speaker 1: Google Maps, which said they had a billion users, and

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Speaker 1: on the other you had Ways, which was reporting around

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Speaker 1: fifty million users. But they were growing and really quickly.

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Speaker 1: So Google opened up their wallet, pulled out reportedly about

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Speaker 1: a billion dollars, and just bought Ways. They let the

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Speaker 1: app itself continue to operate, but some of that really

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Speaker 1: valuable data that weays it generated, like that crowdsource traffic information,

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Speaker 1: all of that was incorporated up into the new mothership

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Speaker 1: of Google Maps.

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Speaker 2: They used, you know, frankly, a method pioneered by John Rockefeller,

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Speaker 2: which is, if you have problems with the competitor, buy them.

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Speaker 2: I remember being pretty shocked that that happened. Now we

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Speaker 2: go to the law, which is my particular area of expertise,

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Speaker 2: and there is a law called the Clayton Act, you know,

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Speaker 2: the anti monopoly law, which says you're not supposed to

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Speaker 2: be allowed to merge companies to create a monopoly and

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Speaker 2: I think you do not need to be a sophisticated

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Speaker 2: economist to say there's two mapping programs, one buys the other,

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Speaker 2: that's a monopoly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty cut, dry cut and try.

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Speaker 2: So it went to the Federal Trade Commission, which is

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Speaker 2: the agency one of the two agencies that tries to

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Speaker 2: block illegal mergers, and Federal Trade Commission said, fine, no problem.

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Speaker 1: So this is pretty strange. The FDC initially said that

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Speaker 1: they were going to look into this acquisition, but a

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Speaker 1: couple months later they stopped the investigation and they let

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Speaker 1: the purchase go ahead.

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Speaker 2: I remember I was had been working there, right, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, how did they get to that conclusion? As

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Speaker 2: far as I can tell, this looks pretty much like

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Speaker 2: a merger of monopoly that that reduced competition. So I

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Speaker 2: never I didn't find the answer out to that question

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Speaker 2: for many years until one day I was at a

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Speaker 2: anti trust party.

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Speaker 3: I was hanging out.

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Speaker 4: I was trying back up the anti trust party, Like,

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Speaker 4: I was, what does the party full invite look like

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Speaker 4: for that the anti trust party? We just like pull up,

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Speaker 4: we canna talk about anti trust, Like if you like monopolies,

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Speaker 4: don't come like what.

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Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, okay, it's a thing.

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Speaker 1: It's a thing. Invite me next time I'm down. This

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Speaker 1: sounds great, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, it's like, it's a pretty cool crowd. They're not bad.

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Speaker 2: Matt stolers there, Lena Kahn will be there. Like, it's

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Speaker 2: a bunch of people. So I was at this party

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Speaker 2: and I was having drinks and I realized one of

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Speaker 2: the person I was drinking with had worked on that case.

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Speaker 2: So it was after a while I was like, so, like, what,

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Speaker 2: you know, what went down? How did that happen? And

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Speaker 2: she said, well, you know, I know, look kind of bad.

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Speaker 2: But the boss said we should let the merger go through.

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Speaker 2: And he said, here was his theory that Google is

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Speaker 2: what you use when you want to figure out where

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Speaker 2: you are, and Ways is what you use when you

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Speaker 2: want to figure out where you're going.

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Speaker 3: Huh, I'll say it again.

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Speaker 2: Google is where you go when you want to figure

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Speaker 2: out where you are, and Ways is what you use

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Speaker 2: if you want to figure out where you're going.

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Speaker 3: So they're not really competing.

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Speaker 1: You have just described a map, like the two core

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Speaker 1: functions of a map.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they were not forced to release that reasoning

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Speaker 2: to the public, but that's what happened, and the reason

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Speaker 2: I pinpoint on that point. I think that point early

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Speaker 2: twenty tens is when the Internet really started to turn,

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Speaker 2: and it is because the first generation of companies, people

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Speaker 2: like Google, started becoming threatening by new guys, not just Ways, Instagram,

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Speaker 2: a whole bunch of other companies, and as opposed to

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Speaker 2: fighting them, as opposed to competing, they just started buying them.

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Speaker 1: We reached out to the FTC for comment on Tim's

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Speaker 1: account of this story. As of this recording, we haven't

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Speaker 1: heard back. So for a while, this acquisition thing was

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Speaker 1: a trend big tech companies would just buy their competition.

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Speaker 1: Instagram was starting to become a popular place for people

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Speaker 1: to connect online, so Facebook bought them. They also bought WhatsApp.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you remember when Zappo's was getting really popular as

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Speaker 1: a place to buy shoes online, and then Amazon bought

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Speaker 1: them to add to their online shopping empire. They also

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Speaker 1: bought Whole Foods. Microsoft picked up LinkedIn and GitHub. The

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Speaker 1: next year after getting Ways, Google bought an AI company

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Speaker 1: called DeepMind. I could keep going here. Tim worked on

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Speaker 1: a study a while back that showed them, between two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven and twenty eighteen, Google and Facebook just betwre.

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Speaker 1: The two of them collectively acquired over three hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty companies. The federal government let all those acquisitions go through,

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Speaker 1: and that study closes with this line of commentary. As

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Speaker 1: with a basketball referee who never calls a foul, the

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Speaker 1: question is whether the players have really been faultless, or

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Speaker 1: whether the referee is missing something. What might things look

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Speaker 1: like if Google had not bought Ways?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think that what was lost in that

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Speaker 2: acquisition was the chance of a full fledged rival, you know,

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Speaker 2: to Google, and another ecosystem, two different, fully functioning ecosystems

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Speaker 2: that offered you a real alternative because so much turns

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Speaker 2: on maps as sort of a foundation and a good

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Speaker 2: search engine, and if you imagine it growing, if you

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Speaker 2: imagine it development itself. It also was, as we said,

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Speaker 2: this kind of different user based business model, and who

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Speaker 2: knows where that would have gone.

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Speaker 1: I mean, within the Google War.

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Speaker 2: They were supposedly separate, but they were under ultimately the

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Speaker 2: command of Google, and ultimately the founders all left and

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Speaker 2: expressed extreme disappointment they had ever done this.

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Speaker 1: In twenty twenty one, the CEO of Ways from before

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Speaker 1: the acquisition left the company. He wrote a blog post

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Speaker 1: about why he was leaving, and he also reflected back

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Speaker 1: on when he sold to Google back in twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 1: and you can tell he regrets it. It almost reads

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Speaker 1: is less of a resignation letter than an apology letter

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Speaker 1: to society in general. And there's one line that hits

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Speaker 1: pretty hard here quote looking back, we could have probably

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Speaker 1: grown faster and much more efficiently had we stayed independent, And.

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Speaker 3: I think we lost the chance.

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Speaker 2: I mean not only through ways, but a million little acquisitions,

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Speaker 2: a million different aquihiers of having a truly more decentralized

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Speaker 2: economy that was one in which spread a lot more

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Speaker 2: wealth to a lot more people. Instead, it has concentrated

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Speaker 2: wealth and a very small number of people.

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Speaker 1: Acquisitions are just one method of maintaining a monopoly. In

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Speaker 1: his book, Tim lays out a bunch of other tactics.

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Speaker 1: They're used by tech giants, including Amazon.

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Speaker 2: So Amazon Marketplace, I guess fifteen years ago really was

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Speaker 2: in some ways carrying out the early dream of the Internet.

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Speaker 2: It was making a lot of people rich at the time,

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Speaker 2: they charged twenty percent, only twenty percent of fees, and

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Speaker 2: then they would ship your products to people, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of people started making a lot of money. I

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Speaker 2: have in my book stories about like this Indiana barber

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Speaker 2: who start selling palmade as a side business and suddenly

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Speaker 2: is like making millions of dollars. But then Amazon, once

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Speaker 2: it kind of had everybody, It had all the sellers,

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Speaker 2: it had the buyers, you know, locked in with Prime

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Speaker 2: or whatever, then it just started turning all the knobs.

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Speaker 2: They started adding what they called advertising fee for sellers.

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Speaker 2: So you know when you search an Amazon on if

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Speaker 2: you use Amazon, but you get like, hey, I'm looking

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Speaker 2: for slippers, and you get a bunch of sponsored results. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: those turned into a huge cash cow for Amazon because

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Speaker 2: the sellers bid against each other to get those spots,

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Speaker 2: and they don't feel they can sell without them, and

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Speaker 2: they started making more and more money. When I released

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Speaker 2: this book for twenty twenty four, they had made something

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Speaker 2: like fifty six billion from those sponsored links alone. So

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Speaker 2: that's more than double the revenue of every single newspaper

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Speaker 2: on the entire planet Earth. Ugh, and it's almost no costs.

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Speaker 2: It's actually more lucrative than Amazon Web services. I looked

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Speaker 2: into it this year twenty twenty five, and it looks

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Speaker 2: like it's gonna be over seventy billion dollars a pure

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Speaker 2: profit and.

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Speaker 1: It's only going out Wow, and it's providing nothing for

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Speaker 1: me as somebody who just wants to buy slippers.

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Speaker 2: The other way around is making it worse, it's making

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Speaker 2: it harder, true fine stuff. So you're paying, we are

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Speaker 2: collectively paying seventy billion dollars to degrade our experience. It's

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Speaker 2: like completely valueless extraction.

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Speaker 1: So we've got companies actively taking money from you, taking

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Speaker 1: it from small businesses and making your life worse. Whose

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Speaker 1: idea was this, Well, it turns out we could probably

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Speaker 1: point to a couple people we get into who After

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Speaker 1: the break back in the early two thousands, there were

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Speaker 1: a lot of books aimed at casual readers who were

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Speaker 1: curious about how technology might reshape the economy. They had

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Speaker 1: titles like Small Is the New Big and the Rise

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Speaker 1: of the Creative Class. These books were really optimistic and

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Speaker 1: they reassured people that tech innovation would lead to more

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Speaker 1: opportunities for the little guy. But then came another way

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Speaker 1: of books, and these were aimed directly at influencing the

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Speaker 1: people who were in Silicon Valley who were starting these

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Speaker 1: tech companies, books with titles like blitz Scaling and then

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Speaker 1: There's Zero to One, a book written by Peter Teal

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Speaker 1: who famously said quote competition is for losers, and he

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Speaker 1: argued that monopolies are good for society.

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Speaker 2: Part of this was just sort of business instinct, frankly,

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Speaker 2: a very old one, not dissimilar to the old Robert

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Speaker 2: barons of the nineteenth century who were like, you need

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Speaker 2: to build a giant empire and control everything. But actually

437
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 2: somewhat like them, they could have clothed that. They were like, well,

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Speaker 2: when you are a monopoly and when you dominate your

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Speaker 2: entire industry, you have enough money to treat your employees better.

440
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: One of the books that you bring up is blitz Scaling,

441
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: and it's specifically referencing Blitzkrieg, which is kind of incredible

442
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: that we've just got a book which is basically recommending

443
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: follow the war plans of World War two Germany.

444
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 2: I think riad Hoffins said one of his interviews, He's like, well,

445
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 2: I mean that's the whole idea. You don't carry too

446
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: much stuff, you don't get too busy and move fast.

447
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 2: So that was my business strategy. And if if you

448
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 2: read Peter Teel, it has, you know, a certain level

449
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 2: of practical wisdom and it's well written, but if you

450
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: have an academic background, you can see very clearly that

451
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 2: it's channeling kind of niche and theory of an ubermensh.

452
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 2: The monopolist, in his view, is kind of a superior

453
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 2: race of people, and there are clearly, in his view,

454
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 2: like men who are destined to bleed and rule, and

455
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: then like lesser creatures who are destined to serve.

456
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: So let me posit the counterpoint to that, which is

457
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: to say that, look, okay, you talking about whole bunch

458
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: of big economics game.

459
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: I'm not interested in that. I just want the APT

460
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 2: to work, right. That's what I think is kind of

461
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 2: clever and insidious about it. The business model feats on basically,

462
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 2: as I say in the book, a very profound bet

463
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: on human laziness, you know, like ultimately what the most

464
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: of us want from technology, just that it works. As

465
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 2: you said, you know, we don't want to have forty

466
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: options most of the time.

467
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: And I know you bring in cow cochlock. I love

468
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: to love you to hit me with that, because that's

469
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: one of my favorite parts of the book.

470
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 3: So the power of couchlock.

471
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: That's a term from the I guess we call the

472
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 2: marijuana community, which refers to fact that when you get couchlocked,

473
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 2: you're like unable to move, Like even a nuclear weapon

474
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 2: is coming at your house. You're just like, oh, I

475
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 2: guess that's just gonna happen.

476
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,239
Speaker 1: You just get get real high and you just on

477
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,239
Speaker 1: the couch is like, yo, we gotta go. It's like, bro,

478
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm I can't move, man. I feel like

479
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: a weigh a million pounds. I'm not leaving.

480
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: And in business terms, it's kind of like, let's say

481
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 2: you're buying something on Amazon. You're like, hey, there's this

482
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: better deal over here. It's twenty dollars cheaper, but you

483
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 2: have to sign up for something. You're like, ugh, I'm good,

484
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: I can't do it. You know, like you just think

485
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 2: the small amounts of irritation just are unfathomable. So I

486
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: think frankly, couchlock rules the web at this point, and

487
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 2: it tends to create monopoly, and at some point I think, look,

488
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: I don't want to say people shouldn't be lazy. I

489
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 2: don't want to pretend people. I just think if that's

490
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 2: what it's going to be, then we need a better deal.

491
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 2: Like if there's just going to be a couple of monopolies.

492
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: We need a better deal, and we need to have

493
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 2: them spread the wealth a bit better.

494
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 1: I love this. We've gone from quoting the Bible to

495
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 1: talk about weed this. This is a great conversation. So Okay,

496
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: let's say nothing changes. Let's say things keep going on

497
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 1: the way that they're going on. Where are we headed

498
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: right now?

499
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 3: Yeah?

500
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: I mean I discussed in the book what I call

501
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 2: the real road to serve them, which is the way

502
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: in which a monopolized economy tends to lead to a

503
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 2: rise of an autocratic leader. And frankly, I think we're

504
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: pretty far down that road, I got to say, And

505
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 2: I think it happens this way. You allow too much

506
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 2: of the economy to become monopolized, it takes too much

507
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 2: money from people. They become cynical, angry about democracy. You

508
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: then have a possibility for democracy to fix it. And

509
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: that's why I'm advocating need to do something. If not,

510
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: people get more and more angry and increasingly say, all right,

511
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: I don't believe in democracy.

512
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 3: It can't do anything.

513
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 2: I need some strong leader who's gonna put me first

514
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: and directly deliver the.

515
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 3: Money to me.

516
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: And I think that is the way you see the

517
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: rise of the populist dictator, and around the world. I'm

518
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 2: not just talking to the United States, so there's obvious

519
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 2: parallels the United States around the world. There's been dictators

520
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 2: who have come to power in our era on the

521
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: back of economic dissatisfaction.

522
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: I hope that there are some members of Congress who

523
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: have read your book and who are listening to this podcast.

524
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: I suspect, however, that the vast majority of the people

525
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: who are listening to this, who are watching this are

526
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: not members of Congress, are not directly able to push

527
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: those levers of government. What is an individual able to do?

528
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 2: I think you have to in terms of citizen voting,

529
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 2: be serious about people who truly serious about the threat

530
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: of monopoly power, and don't just like say a few

531
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: things and then quietly vote. I mean, I worked in

532
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: the White House, and I worked on trying to get

533
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: bills passed. And there's a lot of people who take

534
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 2: too much money from tech platforms and when push comes

535
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: as shove will never do anything to limit their business model.

536
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: You have to be really careful who you vote for

537
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: and their stances on monopoly.

538
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: Okay, I know we're getting back into politics. Here, But

539
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: ultimately this is where stuff ends up because scolding individual

540
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: people for continuing to use Apple products or Google products,

541
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: or trying to tell somebody to stop shopping on Amazon,

542
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: it's not going to get us anywhere.

543
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: Look, we have this illusion that we individuals can stand

544
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 2: out the companies that are so much more powerful than

545
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 2: we are. And I think we have learned and we

546
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: know that in every society, every civilization, there are going

547
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: to be platforms that are essential. And I was in

548
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: Rome with my kids earlier this year and go to

549
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: ancient center of Rome, and there is the forum, which

550
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,719
Speaker 2: is like that place where they have markets, they sell stuff,

551
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: they also have speeches, they have the core. Everything is

552
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: happening there. There's always been there, and so it's no

553
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 2: answer to say, well, if you don't like where everything's happening,

554
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: go somewhere else.

555
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 3: That's not really an answer.

556
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: There's always going to be essential platforms, and in our

557
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: times they are companies like Amazon, and somebody's exes its

558
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: own essential platform of speech. Unless you're going to become

559
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: you know, hermer who lives in the cave, you cannot

560
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: ignore that we have these essential platforms. But the platforms

561
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: have a problem of main character syndrome. They think they

562
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: are it, you know, they think they're the story. But

563
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: they are supposed to be the sort of servants of

564
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 2: the rest of the economy. You know, we've dealt with

565
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: this problem before, like.

566
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 3: With the trains.

567
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 2: This was a big problem in the nineteenth century. We've

568
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: like forgotten our own history because we're calling stuff tech.

569
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: So I think the government should control and limit what

570
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: they're able to do and also how much they charge.

571
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: At some level, they need to be treated more like utilities.

572
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: I mean, think about the electric network and how we

573
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: limit how much they can charge you. If you didn't,

574
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 2: what would the electric company do? They'd say, all right,

575
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: want to give me one thousand dollars a month or

576
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars a month. You'd say no way, and

577
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 2: they'd say, okay, how does it feel to have no electricity?

578
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 2: And I think we need to think of these platforms

579
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: more like electricity, which is the platform for the rest

580
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: of us. I also think they need to be under

581
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: constant anti trust attention. But since this is not an

582
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: anti trust party, I will get into that too much.

583
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: So we've talked about that turning point that was in

584
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen we're constantly now talking about all right, we're

585
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: probably it's some kind of inflection point for AI. Yeah,

586
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: where do you see that playing out?

587
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: Let me say something positive about AI before I turn

588
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: to darker possibility. Okay, sort of positive vision of AI

589
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: is that it actually is a great challenge to the

590
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: tech platforms.

591
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 3: Maybe.

592
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I was using open Ai earlier today for

593
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: various things, and as far as I could tell, I

594
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: didn't see a single ad or give any money to Google.

595
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: I used it for a lot of things I would

596
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: have used Google for maybe in the old days. And

597
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: I also, I think was looking for some products and

598
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: didn't have to go through you know, Amazon's.

599
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 3: Insane sponsored links. So there is a possibility.

600
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: And one of the things I have a big believer

601
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: of in technology is you need a constant cycle of challengers.

602
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: So AI could be a challenge to the platforms and

603
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: could shake things up. And that's a very positive view.

604
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 2: The negative view is that it would reinforce the power

605
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: of the platforms, make them almost entirely invulnerable to competition,

606
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: give them more of a government like status, and make

607
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 2: us even more couch blocked than before, where not only

608
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: can we not think about getting up to get a

609
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 2: different company. We can't even like write our own emails,

610
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: you know, where you just feel so totally dependent that

611
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: it's like the sup of armor. You become like this

612
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: ineveted kind of creature and you have to climb into

613
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: your suit of armor to do anything. That's the scary future,

614
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: as we're so utterly dependent, we can't do anything without it.

615
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: You know. There's are you a hip hop fan?

616
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: Somewhat?

617
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: There's a track on DJ shadows introducing album, and it's

618
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: called why hip Hop Sucks in ninety six. It's very

619
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: short track and all it is it's a little bit

620
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: of background music plays and then a guy's voice says,

621
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: it's the money, money, Money Money track ends. That's it.

622
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: It sounds to me like that's almost a soundtrack to

623
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: some of your book, which is to say that we

624
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: came in with all this optimism thinking, you know, our

625
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: ideas and our beliefs and all this other stuff is

626
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: going to really push us forward. And then it seems

627
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: like a lot of what screwed this up, honestly, is

628
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: just people fell victim to the promise of the money.

629
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 3: Cashules everything around me. Dollar dollar billion.

630
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: There we go, there we go. But that's what it is.

631
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,919
Speaker 2: Here's what I think is my ultimate prescription is if

632
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 2: we as really believe something like we did in the

633
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: early thousands, you have to create structures to control the

634
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 2: power of money to corrode it. Structure beats out good

635
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 2: intentions because everything is going to get corrupted and turn

636
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 2: to shit by that creeping need for more and more

637
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 2: little pieces of money. It's sort of like the way

638
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: if you want a nonprofit, you can't be a nonprofit

639
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,720
Speaker 2: like the Red Cross and also have little profit stuff

640
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: on the side. You can't say, basically, we're about saving

641
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: people and disasters. Oh and also we advertise and hold

642
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 2: parties on the side or something or I don't know,

643
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: you know, whatever it else or we sell we sell merch,

644
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: We sell merch because the merch part is going to grow.

645
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: You have to be strict about this.

646
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: Stuff. Can't serve two masters.

647
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 2: That's right, where else it creeps, you know, to give credit.

648
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 2: Wikipedia took a different path. Wikipedia in the early two

649
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 2: thousands had roughly the same traffic as Google, if not more.

650
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 2: They had a very easy path to riches and Jimmy Wales,

651
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 2: who's the head of it. You know, It's almost like

652
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 2: every morning he woke up and he had a button

653
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: marked like billionaire that he could have pushed, and he didn't.

654
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 2: And he's like, if we ever have advertising a Wikipedia,

655
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: it's going to turn the shit. And like, Wikipedia is

656
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 2: not perfect, but it is a nonprofit. It makes plenty

657
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: of money by donations and it hasn't crept into this

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Speaker 2: in this thing. So I say it again, structure beats

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Speaker 2: good intentions. If you believe in something, you got to

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00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 2: start at the beginning and structure it right, or else

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00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,919
Speaker 2: it's going to fall prey to the creep of cash

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Speaker 2: rules everything around me.

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Speaker 3: Cream get the money.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to kill Switch. If

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00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: you want to hit us up, you could email us

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Speaker 1: at kill Switch at Kaleidoscope dot NYC or on Instagram.

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00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 1: We're at kill Switch Pod and if you got a

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00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 1: second please do leave us a review, give us a rating.

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00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: It helps other people find the show, which helps us

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00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: keep doing our thing. And once you've done that, did

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Speaker 1: you know that kill Switch is on YouTube? You can

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00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: search for us there at kill Switch underscore pod or

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00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: the link for that and everything else is in the

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Speaker 1: show notes. Kill Switch is hosted by me Dexter Thomas

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00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: It's produced by Shena Ozaki, Darluk Potts, and Julian Nutter.

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Speaker 1: Our theme song is by Me and Kyle Murdoch and

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Speaker 1: Kyle also mixed the show. From Kaleidoscope, our executive producers

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00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: are Oswa Lashin, Mangesh Hadikadur and Kate Osborne. From iHeart,

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00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 1: our executive producers are Katrina Norville and Nikki Etur. That's

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Speaker 1: it from US. Catch on the next one. Good Fine,