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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media, Hello, and welcome to Cool People.

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Speaker 2: Did Cool Stuff your weekly reminder that there's sometimes two

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Speaker 2: things that are, if not good, at least interesting. I'm

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Speaker 2: your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and with me today is a

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Speaker 2: guest who also researches deep, weird historical subjects, often the

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Speaker 2: same ones that I do. Molly Krabapple, Hi.

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Speaker 3: Hey, please to be here.

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Speaker 2: How are you doing?

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Speaker 3: Slightly tired but very good. I was in the research

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Speaker 3: minds again today.

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Speaker 2: Oh good. I love those minds. I left them about

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Speaker 2: thirty minutes before recording started. Sophie gets my scripts shortly

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Speaker 2: before I record and can tell how I'm doing based

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Speaker 2: on how shortly before we record scripts come along. But Mollie,

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Speaker 2: I was trying to figure out one sentence version of you,

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Speaker 2: and I came up with a conflict journalist and artist

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Speaker 2: and all around cool person who's researching a book about

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Speaker 2: the Jewish Labor Bund, which has been on the show

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Speaker 2: multiple times. Not you, you haven't been on the show before,

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Speaker 2: but the Jewish Labor Bund has. How's that for a description?

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Speaker 3: I like that description? And I can't even tell you

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Speaker 3: how much my heart soared when I listened to all

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Speaker 3: of your episodes about like my gangster King Bernard Goldstein

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Speaker 3: and other Jewish labor and stuff. So I'm so happy

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Speaker 3: to be here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I am excited to have you, and I'm excited

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Speaker 2: to have you to talk about the Betsimisarik Confederation. You

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Speaker 2: ever heard of the bet Semisarik Confederation?

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Speaker 3: Never? In my life?

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Speaker 2: I sure as hell hadn't either, Sophia, You ever heard

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Speaker 2: of it?

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Speaker 3: Nope?

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty excited to talk about them because it talks

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Speaker 2: about a whole bunch of stuff that we like talking

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Speaker 2: about on this show. Yeay, okay, So that was a

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Speaker 2: real thing that happened, right, that confederation. But I had

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Speaker 2: heard of something called Libertalia, a thing that never happened.

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Speaker 2: You ever heard about the pirate utopia Libertalia?

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Speaker 3: I feel like in my youthful days trolling anarchist bookstores,

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Speaker 3: I saw like cultural signifiers pointing towards this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. That's uh, That's where I came up with it

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Speaker 2: too originally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's like some well patched jackets involved

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Speaker 3: with this, perhaps a crime think pamphlet.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah no. And I'm going to talk about a

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Speaker 2: friend of mineho war patch pants. He told me about

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Speaker 2: it real soon, because Pirate Utopia's on Madagascar is what

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Speaker 2: we're talking about this week, and we're talking about how

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Speaker 2: most of what we know about it is lies really cool,

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Speaker 2: but there's a bunch of true stuff that's even more interesting,

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Speaker 2: which is like my favorite kind of cool people who

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Speaker 2: did cool stuff story.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is fucking amazing. Go On, go on.

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Speaker 2: This week, we're going to talk about pirates Madagascar, synthesis

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Speaker 2: between indigenous and foreign criminal ideas of liberty and pirates,

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Speaker 2: which I already said, but I'm going to say twice

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Speaker 2: because it's it's fun. We talk a lot on the

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Speaker 2: show about various experiments with like free horizontal societies that

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Speaker 2: have been tried over the years. We've talked a lot

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Speaker 2: about the republican and anarchist Spain. We've talked about the

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Speaker 2: horizontal peasants in Ukraine and Manchuria. We've talked about various

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Speaker 2: maroon communities of you know, indigenous folks and runaway enslave

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Speaker 2: people in the Americas, and we'll keep talking about all

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Speaker 2: of those things. We also once did a couple episodes

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Speaker 2: about societies that should have been free but weren't, like

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Speaker 2: the Golden Age of pirates. The goal of those episodes

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Speaker 2: that people can go back and listen to if they

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Speaker 2: want to hear all about it is to explode kind

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Speaker 2: of a couple layers of myth making about pirates. I'm

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Speaker 2: kind of curious, like coming into it, because there's all

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Speaker 2: of these different versions of pirates. Where do you land on, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, Jolly Roger, European and Caribbean pirates.

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Speaker 3: I think the pirates that I was always most interested

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Speaker 3: in were the pirates that were like the guy that

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Speaker 3: they based Jack Sparrow on, who were essentially poor Europeans

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Speaker 3: whose ships were taken over by pirates from algiers and

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Speaker 3: who were given the choice of whether like to convert

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Speaker 3: to Islam and piracy or to become galley slaves, and

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Speaker 3: they obviously chose to convert to Islam and piracy. So

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Speaker 3: I always thought the Muslim pirates were the shit. And

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Speaker 3: in fact, the first free Muslim in New York City

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Speaker 3: ever was the son of a pirate.

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Speaker 2: Oh shit, we're going to talk about New York City

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Speaker 2: mostly in bad ways in this episode.

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Speaker 3: Actually we're very evil city, I mean, with who have

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Speaker 3: done many bad things. Why we're so rich?

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Speaker 2: You know that New York City was the had the

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Speaker 2: second largest concentration of enslaved people during the colonial period.

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Speaker 3: I did.

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Speaker 2: I didn't until I researched this. It makes sense that

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Speaker 2: you did. You live in New York City. We always

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Speaker 2: think of like the North as the place where there

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Speaker 2: was no slavery, and to be fair, the North like

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Speaker 2: fought a whole war and like died a lot to

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Speaker 2: end slavery. I'm not trying to specifically come for the

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Speaker 2: North here. But so there's all of these myths about pirates, right,

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Speaker 2: and there's all these different layers to it, and there

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Speaker 2: is a lot of truth behind a lot of it too.

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Speaker 2: There's these ideas that pirates were wonderful democrats and a

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Speaker 2: truly a galitarian society. Then there was another set of

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Speaker 2: myths that they were like, no, they were all petty

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Speaker 2: tyrannies of this or that captain, and anyone who says

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Speaker 2: they were democrats is a liar, and everything was violence

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Speaker 2: and bad. And the truth, as best as I can

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Speaker 2: sort out, is that it's messier than either of those.

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Speaker 2: I've been arguing that Golden Age pirates, often way more

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Speaker 2: than I actually expected, did live free in a galitarian

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Speaker 2: short lives. So they were a galitarian within themselves, but

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Speaker 2: they also practiced conscription and slavery and physical and sexual violence,

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Speaker 2: and their moral world only applied internally. Externally, anything goes.

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Speaker 2: The really magical thing about pirates from this point of

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Speaker 2: view isn't that they were like somehow precursors to good

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Speaker 2: republican societies, although it turns out they actually did influence

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Speaker 2: the later literal republics. And I had no idea, But

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Speaker 2: they lived these brief, beautiful, strange, terrible lives outside the

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Speaker 2: logic of capitalism in the state, and they did a

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Speaker 2: strange and romantic mixture of both good and evil with

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Speaker 2: their short lives. They freed some slaves, they conscripted others,

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Speaker 2: and then they sold others further along the way. You know.

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Speaker 2: So the myth making around Golden Age pirates is nearly

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Speaker 2: as old as pirates themselves. There's one major book about

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Speaker 2: pirates from the Golden Age of Piracy, from which, like

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Speaker 2: almost everything that isn't you know, actual anthropology and stuff

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Speaker 2: are like main source. And this Golden Age of piracy

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Speaker 2: really only lasted from like seventeen fifteen to seventeen twenty six.

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Speaker 2: Although if you feel like being like real generous, you

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Speaker 2: can do sixteen fifties to seventeen thirties.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's like nine years. Nine years was all

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Speaker 3: it lasted.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I mean there's versions of it, depends on

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Speaker 2: where you want to draw the start in the close

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Speaker 2: of it, but like, yeah, most of the like we're

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Speaker 2: gonna talk about some pirates who were like the most

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Speaker 2: famous pirate in history in the following reason and they

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Speaker 2: like did piracy for two years or got shot in

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Speaker 2: the belly and died on their second raid. You know,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't a good way to live a very long

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Speaker 2: time to declare war against the entire world. Who would

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Speaker 2: have known?

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Speaker 3: Who would have known? They were here for a good time,

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Speaker 3: not a long time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is that is the true pirate motto. And

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Speaker 2: I was like this idea that like because the Jolly Roger,

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Speaker 2: as much as it was like a skull and crossbones,

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Speaker 2: sometimes a lot of them used hourglasses, and I love

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Speaker 2: that the part of the point of the hourglass wasn't

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Speaker 2: like your time is up. It was kind of like

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Speaker 2: our time is running out, so you should be afraid

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Speaker 2: of us because we don't give a shit.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Wow the other stuff too, right, when like old timey

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Speaker 2: pirates will like curse and blaspheme and stuff like these

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Speaker 2: days someone's saying, goddamn, it is like not a real

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Speaker 2: big deal, right, It was a kind of a big

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Speaker 2: deal because you're this is like pre Enlightenment or like

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Speaker 2: just around the start of the Enlightenment. You know, they're

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Speaker 2: all like saying, we are hell bound. They like meant it.

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Speaker 3: They didn't care. Yeah, they were like Milton Satan or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no I And so it's it's funny because then

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Speaker 2: also a lot of the myths that sprung up around

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Speaker 2: them were like they literally worshiped Satan. They kind of

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Speaker 2: might have my kids, like my God, some of them, right,

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Speaker 2: or like but another pirate like maybe got killed by

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Speaker 2: his own crew for worshiping Satan. It's like or that's

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Speaker 2: all shit to sell books, and no one fucking knows,

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Speaker 2: and it's so weird and cool and interesting. I'm completely

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Speaker 2: offscript at this point. Oh fuck, Okay, sorry, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: it's not your fault. I just I'm really interested in

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Speaker 2: that stuff. Okay. So the one book that most shit

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Speaker 2: is based on from seventeen twenty four, and it's called

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Speaker 2: A General History of the Pirates by Captain Charles Johnson,

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Speaker 2: there is no such name this man, it's a pseudonym.

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Speaker 2: It is generally accepted that this book was written by

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Speaker 2: Daniel Dafoe, although more recent he's the guy who wrote

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Speaker 2: Robinson Crusoe, but more recent scholarship suggests it might have

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Speaker 2: been a publisher named a Nathaniel mist. Basically, it was

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Speaker 2: just like, ah, we need to book about pirates to

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Speaker 2: sell to people. Can you write about pirates? Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: get write about pirates. You know. This book two volumes.

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Speaker 2: It's a list of pirate captains and their adventures. Most

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Speaker 2: of the stories are more or less true, or at

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Speaker 2: least they describe people who actually existed, and there seems

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Speaker 2: to be some real scholarship. But then a second volume

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Speaker 2: was released and it contains three pirates who probably didn't

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Speaker 2: exist at all. One was William Lewis, who is openly

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Speaker 2: in league with the devil and so this is like

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Speaker 2: where you get like, you know, maybe it's a myth

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Speaker 2: making right, And he's the one who got killed by

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Speaker 2: his own crew. Then his quartermaster succeeded him. John Cornelius

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Speaker 2: also probably didn't exist, because this whole devilship probably didn't.

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Speaker 2: But most important to our story was a pirate who

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Speaker 2: loomed large in my early life as an anarchist trap

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Speaker 2: A famous Captain James Mission, or just Captain Mission he's

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Speaker 2: usually called, was a good last name, although might be

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Speaker 2: a little on the nose if this was whole thing

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Speaker 2: was made up to tell a moral tale. One of

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Speaker 2: my best friends when I was a young wanderer was

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Speaker 2: this tiny Irish American man named Dark Star, who proudly

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Speaker 2: announced that he weighed ninety pounds soaking wet, he had

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Speaker 2: snake bite piercings. He scowled all of the time, and

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Speaker 2: he was utterly and fully committed to a life of

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Speaker 2: piracy in classic form. He did not live a very

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Speaker 2: long time. He wrote freight trains. He lived in a van.

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Speaker 2: He fucked dudes for money to get gas, or he

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Speaker 2: would just steal money or gas as needed. He burned

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Speaker 2: every American flag he could find. His so many stories

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Speaker 2: about being like and then we stole all these American

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Speaker 2: flags and I had to hide in a dumpster from

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Speaker 2: the cops for six hours. And this kind of man.

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Speaker 2: He also wrote short stories about animals living in happy

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Speaker 2: anarchist societies, and he wrote a zene call Irish for Punks,

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Speaker 2: which was full of ideas about how to cuss in Irish.

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Speaker 2: When I was twenty and he was twenty one, he

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Speaker 2: died drinking and driving stolen photocopies of anarchizines splayed out

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Speaker 2: across the freeway. Don't drink and dive or drink and die.

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Speaker 2: Don't drink and drive or you will die. It's bad.

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Speaker 2: Don't do it. Before he died, he told me a

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Speaker 2: lot about pirates. He was obsessed with pirates. He used

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Speaker 2: to draw lox's over his eyes when he would write

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Speaker 2: letters to me, And he told me about Captain Mission.

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Speaker 2: As Darkstar had it, Captain Mission was like the original anarchist.

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Speaker 2: He and his crew attacked slave ships, freeing the slaves

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Speaker 2: and killing the slavers before establishing an anti racist colony

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Speaker 2: on Madagascar called Libertalia, which was ruled by direct democracy,

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Speaker 2: and they lived in a socialist economy nearly a century

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Speaker 2: before anyone was calling anything socialism. This story is too

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Speaker 2: good to be true, and it's not true. Captain Mission

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Speaker 2: was invented by the author of the Pirate Book. Almost certainly.

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Speaker 2: I'd always assumed he'd been invented whole cloth, either to

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Speaker 2: sell more books, because like, uh, throw this little interesting

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Speaker 2: guy in there, right, or to get across some political ideas,

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Speaker 2: a mission as it were, right, Captain Mission is clearly

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Speaker 2: an important part of the book. Captain Mission's chapter is

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Speaker 2: more than fourteen thousand words long, which is real long

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Speaker 2: for people who are listening and they don't think in

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Speaker 2: terms of words like my weird writer brain is poisoned

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Speaker 2: to do. That's twice as long as this week's script.

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Speaker 2: So a bunch of words. It's also clearly important to

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Speaker 2: the author. It is the first chapter of the second volume.

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Speaker 2: And it turns out he did base it on fact.

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Speaker 2: He just based it on the less interesting part of

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Speaker 2: the story. And this sounds like an ad transition, but

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Speaker 2: it Isn't you know what else was both real and

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Speaker 2: imagine somehow both at once.

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Speaker 3: The monetary system that we use.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's true. Also the libertarian socialist pirate communities on Madagascar,

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Speaker 2: which inasmuch as they existed, were less colonies of like

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Speaker 2: white and black pirates from elsewhere and more complicated societies

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Speaker 2: built from indigenous Malagassi political traditions interacting with pirates.

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Speaker 3: So the pirates were showing up running away from the

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Speaker 3: crown and all the people they stole from landing in

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Speaker 3: this place where well, I've read my David Graber where

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Speaker 3: there was a super developed form of democracy and like

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Speaker 3: learning it from the Malagasy and that sounds like a

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Speaker 3: very nice fairy tale too, So there must be something

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Speaker 3: more complicated than that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so interesting one. David Graber is the main source

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Speaker 2: for this episode. Fuck yes, two No, Actually, oh, the

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Speaker 2: ways in which it's different from that are so interesting

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Speaker 2: because egalitarian traditions were coming from a lot of the

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Speaker 2: Malagasy methods of how people were living there, but they

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Speaker 2: were not any way democratic. The pirates actually brought the democracy.

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Speaker 2: But oh, you're gonna like it. This is gonna be

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Speaker 2: a good Okay.

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Speaker 3: I cannot wait. I cannot wait, I cannot wait.

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Speaker 2: So Madagascar, Madagascar is a big fucking island off the

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Speaker 2: coast of Southeast Africa. It is almost as big as Texas.

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Speaker 2: Even if you're bad at geography, especially African geography, like

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Speaker 2: the average American, I think there's a good chance that

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Speaker 2: people know where Madagascar.

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Speaker 3: Is, the giant island off of the coast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like if you handed the average non

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Speaker 2: Africa geography know where, they'd probably figure out. Egypt, South

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Speaker 2: Africa and Madagascar.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I'm wrong, and yeah, I think you might be overestimating.

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Speaker 3: I think probably only Madagascar fair enough.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that know anyway, I'm not

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Speaker 2: great at geography, but I know way more than that.

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Speaker 2: I'm proud to say because I worked at it. This

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Speaker 2: is not what anyone is here to hear about it.

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Speaker 2: Geography Understanding Madagascar is fascinating for a thousand reasons. There's

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Speaker 2: a ton of biodiversity there, especially endemic plants and animals,

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Speaker 2: like stuff that doesn't appear anywhere else. There are a

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Speaker 2: fuck ton of endemic species of lemurs. I spent way

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Speaker 2: too long in the time I had to write this

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Speaker 2: script just looking at pictures of different kinds of lemurs.

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Speaker 3: Was there a lemur pirate intersection?

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Speaker 2: No, I just was reading about Madagascar and I got

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Speaker 2: distracted by pictures of lemurs. This is the way my

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Speaker 2: brain works. Also, there's an animal called a fossa, which

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Speaker 2: is like a giant mongoose that looks like a puma

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Speaker 2: and eats lemurs. They're pretty cool.

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Speaker 3: Right now, I'm in my head, I'm drawing pirate lemurs.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry. This is what happens when you get an

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Speaker 3: artist on the show.

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Speaker 2: No, yeah, no, you know what, you can just to

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Speaker 2: draw pirate lemurs and it'll be great. There's also huge

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Speaker 2: bats there, and there's an animal called the satanic leaf

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Speaker 2: tailed gecko.

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Speaker 3: What the fuck?

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Speaker 1: I want one.

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Speaker 2: They're so cute.

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Speaker 4: I want one.

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Speaker 2: They really are little satanic leaf tail gekos.

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Speaker 3: Is it big or little? Is it a tiny thing

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Speaker 3: or a large?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I didn't get a good picture for scale, but has

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Speaker 2: a leaf tail and it's like dragon demon looking. They're

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Speaker 2: so good.

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Speaker 3: This is of course, this became pirate Island, and look

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Speaker 3: at the visuals that you have.

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Speaker 2: No, I know right, folks have lived on Madagascar for

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Speaker 2: around two thousand years. It actually is one of the

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Speaker 2: like more recently populated large land masses.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I have to pause for a second so

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Speaker 4: I can show you guys this gecko.

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Speaker 1: Because it's actually really terrifying. Look at this guy.

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Speaker 3: What the fuck man? That was what the Satan pirate

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Speaker 3: was worshiping that the crew killed him for They It

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Speaker 3: was definitely yeah yeah, because look at those eyes.

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Speaker 2: One of those was hanging out on his shoulder just

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Speaker 2: talking to him.

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Speaker 1: And I don't change my statement. I want one. I

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Speaker 1: want this guy with this crazy giant red eyeballs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh oh they're tiny.

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Speaker 1: They're tiny. Well they're geckos, their finger ge goos.

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Speaker 2: That one's like finger nail. That might be a baby.

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Speaker 1: That might be a baby. But yeah, anyways, I just

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Speaker 1: thought everybody should know that. And if you're listening, please

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Speaker 1: please google Satanic leaf tailed gecko. You will enjoy it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, what a delightful creature.

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Speaker 2: I know. No, you're right, this is what the guy

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Speaker 2: was worshiping. Like one of them was hanging out on

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Speaker 2: his shoulder, and people were like, I just can't handle it.

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Speaker 2: It's too much for me.

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Speaker 3: He had a pinky gecko and it was hanging out

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Speaker 3: on his pinky. He was talking to it. He was

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Speaker 3: asking whether or not they should do missions, and the

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Speaker 3: crew tore him into pieces over it.

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Speaker 2: Thunder Yeah, that tracks, and I would read the your

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Speaker 2: graphic novel about it. So folks have lived there for

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Speaker 2: about two thousand years, coming from all over the place,

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Speaker 2: coming from the east, the north, and the west, from

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Speaker 2: Indonesia and Swanna and East Africa, including most likely many Jews.

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Speaker 2: Were actually an important part of the sort of cultural

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Speaker 2: makeup of Madagascar for a long time. These groups actually

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Speaker 2: just lived in different places, and then around the turn

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Speaker 2: of the first millennia you start getting a synthesis culture

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Speaker 2: that what's now the Malagassy culture. The island was under

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Speaker 2: Arab influence and slavers from the Ottoman Empire lived on

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Speaker 2: the west coast of it for a long ass time,

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Speaker 2: doing a fair amount of integrating into the local population

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Speaker 2: or at least making all alliances and such with them.

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Speaker 2: They stayed apart, but they weren't like, they weren't what

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Speaker 2: the Europeans are about to do basically.

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Speaker 3: And so were they they enslaving Malagasy people or were

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Speaker 3: they using it as a base to take slaves from

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Speaker 3: other parts of the continent.

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Speaker 2: So they were buying, So slavery and in Madagascar was

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Speaker 2: actually kind of interesting when we talk about it a

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Speaker 2: little bit. Basically, whenever different groups would fight, they would

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Speaker 2: take captives from each other, and then those would they

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Speaker 2: would turn around and sell them to the Ottomans, who

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Speaker 2: would then sell them off the island. So they weren't

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Speaker 2: necessarily like raiding for slaves, but they were instead buying

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Speaker 2: them from people there. And yeah, they absolutely were enslaving

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Speaker 2: people on the island and shipping them away. Portugal and

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Speaker 2: France tried to set up settlements too, starting the fifteen hundreds,

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Speaker 2: but they were messy assholes about it, and they all

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Speaker 2: got run off by the locals and or like just killed.

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Speaker 3: Were what were they doing?

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Speaker 2: So basically Europeans were just seen as violent savages.

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Speaker 3: Like I mean, for good reason.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely they were accurately seen as what they were. And

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Speaker 2: they would show up and basically just like take whatever

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Speaker 2: they wanted and rob people and just like try to

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Speaker 2: like crush entire villages and just be like whatever, it's

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Speaker 2: ours now. And they would be like incredibly racist about stuff,

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Speaker 2: and they would like it was just like the Ottoman

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Speaker 2: Empire showed up as slavers and stead up like slave

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Speaker 2: trade places, and they were by far the lesser evil.

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Speaker 2: That's how bad the Europeans were. Basically the tracks the tracks. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And so you know, these legal settlements would just go around,

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Speaker 2: and I'm comparing that to the pirates who were gonna

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Speaker 2: come later, who actually were much more polite. The legal

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Speaker 2: settlements would run around and rob locals and capture slaves

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Speaker 2: and shit, and were far too racist to consider that

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Speaker 2: are integrating with the locals at all. Later European settlements

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Speaker 2: did start sticking around pirate settlements. Not everyone, not all

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Speaker 2: the pirates were European, right, but they were kind of

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Speaker 2: more in the European sphere of influence. Basically, the pirates

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Speaker 2: ironically were a lot less likely to steal ship from

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Speaker 2: their neighbors and or steal their neighbors themselves because.

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Speaker 3: They didn't have like a base that they could run

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Speaker 3: to and you know, take all of their loot off to,

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Speaker 3: because they actually had to make themselves not hated in

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Speaker 3: order to use the island as a base.

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Speaker 2: I think. So, I mean, they kind of just like

401
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Speaker 2: came in less cocky, right, and with a lot less assumptions,

402
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Speaker 2: and also just kind of like I think that there

403
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Speaker 2: was honestly different ethics. Like it's so hard because, for

404
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Speaker 2: very understandable reasons, we look at slavery as like one

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Speaker 2: of those things where like all slavery is bad, right,

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Speaker 2: because it is, but not all slavery is the same.

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Speaker 2: And I think that understanding slavery outside of the United

408
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Speaker 2: States requires understanding to some level that like different ways

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Speaker 2: that slavery worked at different times in different places, you know,

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Speaker 2: And so like I think the pirates were like, why

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Speaker 2: would we steal from our poor neighbors? Honestly, I mean, well,

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about what the pirates are doing in slavery.

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Speaker 2: It's actually really complicated and interesting. But one of the

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Speaker 2: largest distinct ethno groups in modern Madagascar is in fact

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Speaker 2: the Zono Malata, where the descendants of Malagasy and European

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Speaker 2: pirate ancestors. And they're going to come up a bunch

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Speaker 2: in this week's story because also the other thing that

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Speaker 2: the pirates were doing was like marrying into the culture.

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Speaker 2: And there's kind of this like there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: places like this in the world, and I'm assuming that

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Speaker 2: because I can I know about it with Ireland and

422
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Speaker 2: now Madagascar, and so therefore I'm making rude assumptions about

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Speaker 2: the entire world where prior to like settler colonialism, people

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Speaker 2: would show up places and either maybe stay a little

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Speaker 2: bit different and have their port or kind of just

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Speaker 2: like marry in and then sort of dissipate into the

427
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Speaker 2: culture and like do some kind of synthetic thing, you know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, I feel like that's most of

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Speaker 3: the history of India, you know.

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Speaker 2: I believe it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's what people do, right, Like they move,

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Speaker 3: they go to places, they become other things when they're there.

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Speaker 3: And it's really the Setler colonialism that takes like these

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Speaker 3: super defined identities and defines you as like the indigenous

435
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 3: people to be exploited or the elite British or French

436
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 3: or whatever to do the exploiting. Whereas like previously, even

437
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:33,880
Speaker 3: sometimes you have people show up and sometimes they'd even

438
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 3: be bastards and criminals, but there are also could be

439
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,679
Speaker 3: bastards and criminals that integrated into your society somehow.

440
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally and you know, joined Malagasy society. Like again

441
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 2: not any perfect way, and we're going to talk about

442
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 2: some of the imperfect parts of it. But do you

443
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: know what doesn't integrate well into society and sticks.

444
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 3: Out Satanic leaf tails get goos.

445
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 2: That's right, they are. This podcast is brought to you

446
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: by Satanic not the concept of Satanic leaf tailed get goes,

447
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: but a specific one named Lucifer who has been talking

448
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 2: to me and giving me information that is the sponsor

449
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 2: of this show and also whoever else gave us money?

450
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 2: Now iber Beck, So okay, the Libertalius story, the idea

451
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: of this like perfect little utopian pirate community. I don't

452
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: know too many authors who could have convinced me there

453
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 2: was anything to that story at all, because I had

454
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 2: wanted to believe it's so bad when I was younger

455
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: that I like mourned its falseness and moved on, didn't

456
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 2: really want to look back. But there is an author

457
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: that I trust, the author that brought me back there,

458
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 2: whose name you've already mentioned.

459
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 3: David Graeber.

460
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's my little aside about David Graeber. I think

461
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 2: David Graber is going to be considered one of the

462
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 2: greatest thinkers of the early twenty five century. He wrote

463
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 2: books that were at once accessible to the public while

464
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 2: also pushing anthropological and political science forward. His writing has

465
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 2: been one of the primary things that shifted how I

466
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: view politics and economics. I honestly think he is as

467
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: important of an economic thinker as Marx if we let

468
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: him be, if people listen to what he has to say.

469
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: He wrote a book called Debt, The First five thousand

470
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: Years into History of Money that contains an awful lot

471
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: of bombshells that destroy the way that people normally talk

472
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 2: about money. For example, barter didn't precede money. Barter is

473
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 2: what people who are used to money use when there

474
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 2: suddenly isn't any money anymore. He also, alongside another anthropologist

475
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 2: named David Wengrow, wrote a book called The Dawn of Everything.

476
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 2: This book pulls the rug out from underneath a wide

477
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 2: swath of modern Western thought, including the idea that the

478
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 2: Enlightenment came primarily from European minds or I mean the

479
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: go ahead, No.

480
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 3: I mean that book. It basically is this complete subversion

481
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 3: right of everything that we're taught. We're taught that the

482
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 3: Enlightenment is just sort of this like neat progression of

483
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 3: European history. Born in Europe, raised in Europe, gifted to America,

484
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 3: you know, from the Europeans. And he's like, no, fuck,

485
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 3: that the Enlightenment actually comes from indigenous intellectuals in North

486
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 3: America and Europeans like taking seriously what they were.

487
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 2: Saying, yeah, and then turning around and using it to

488
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: do absolutely awful things, because the Enlightenment mostly did bad stuff,

489
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 2: but the concepts of it absolutely One of the things

490
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 2: that I've run across by doing research on the show

491
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: is I've been thinking even about how, like, you know,

492
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: my own political ideology, anarchism comes from the people who

493
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 2: are calling themselves that it first or like enlightenment political

494
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 2: thinkers from Western Europe, right, or actually a lot of

495
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 2: them are from Russia. And yet what I've been learning

496
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: by doing the show and learning more about out all

497
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 2: of these different things is that anarchists were actually specifically

498
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 2: drawing from indigenous communities all over the world very consciously,

499
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: and indigenous anarchists in various places were informing people, whether

500
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 2: it was like in Siberia, in Ukraine and Ireland and Mexico. Oh,

501
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: and a lot of ideas coming from like Korea and

502
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 2: places like that. Right, those are the places I personally

503
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 2: run across it in my research for this show, and

504
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: so I'm just like more and more, I'm like, oh,

505
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 2: all this shit comes from elsewhere, you know.

506
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:32,959
Speaker 3: So basically what you're telling me is you had these

507
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 3: Russian radicals that were getting exiled to Siberia and they

508
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 3: were meeting indigenous folks and they were listening to them

509
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 3: and learning from them.

510
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they were like, oh, there's the rules. What

511
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 2: if we all treat each other as equals? Doesn't that

512
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: sound nice?

513
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 4: Yeah?

514
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: Yeah?

515
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 3: But also like, let's not credit these people when we

516
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 3: write our pamphlets. About it.

517
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: Well, I actually think some of them did, and they did,

518
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 2: I think so, And like, I think that it goes

519
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 2: through this process of like the original of that gets dissolved.

520
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: And part of it is because anarchists are so internationalist

521
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: in the late like nineteenth early twentieth century, where they

522
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: would refuse to credit anything as like coming from this

523
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 2: or that place, right, because you'd have like indigenous Mexican

524
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 2: anarchists who wouldn't necessarily identify as indigenous because they're like, oh,

525
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: we're internationalists. And also, of course, because Mexico's indigenous, the

526
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: structure of whiteness and indigeneity is different in Mexico than

527
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 2: it is like in the United States.

528
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 5: Right.

529
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 2: But I think about how like, oh, man, there's a tangent.

530
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: But I think how like twentieth century anarchist history books

531
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: don't talk about the women, right, right, But then if

532
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: you actually read the people that those books are about,

533
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 2: those people did write about the women because the women

534
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 2: were just as involved as everyone turns out. And so

535
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 2: it's this like process of like stripping away.

536
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, No, No, I totally get it. I mean

537
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 3: when I was writing about the boon do it was

538
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 3: the same thing when you go through these like biographical dictionaries,

539
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 3: it's like thirty percent women. And they're not just like

540
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 3: making food and educating the kids. They're throwing bombs, they're

541
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 3: running self defense groups. They're riling up, you know, when

542
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: the battleship Potempkin is there. But somehow, through this process

543
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 3: of people writing histories and then people writing the histories

544
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 3: in English instead of in Yiddish or whatever, the women

545
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 3: just kind of get filtered out and made into a footnote.

546
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: And I feel like so much of the work of

547
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 3: what you're doing, it's this act of necromancy right where

548
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 3: you're taking those people back from being lost in the

549
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 3: dust of the archive.

550
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, and I will take that as an honor, Okay.

551
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: So Graeber is one of the authors who has done

552
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: more to popularize this idea, this idea that the Enlightenment

553
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: doesn't just come from the West, right, And this book

554
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: also downe of Everything, destroys linear concepts of progress. It

555
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: shows that societies have done just about everything, They've tried

556
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: just about everything. So many things are possible, so many

557
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 2: different things have been done, and most of what we

558
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: assume about the development of human society is wrong. And

559
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: this isn't necessarily all of his or the other David's research,

560
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: as much as like kind of catching up the rest

561
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: of us on what anthropologists have been realizing for a while.

562
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: I'll know. And Graver was also an anarchist. His other

563
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: claim to fame was heavily influencing the occupy movement of

564
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,479
Speaker 2: twenty eleven. Framing things around the ninety nine percent against

565
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 2: like the one percenter seems to have been his idea.

566
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: I met him once. We have an awful lot of

567
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: friends in common, and we also had some frenemies in common,

568
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: but I'm not Yeah.

569
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 3: I met him a few times also, and one of

570
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: my sort of fond memories of him was him taking

571
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,959
Speaker 3: me around these like flea markets in London, and there

572
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 3: was this book of Edmund Dulac fairy Tales, and I

573
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: was looking at it lustfully, but I had no cash,

574
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: and he just like he just bought it for me.

575
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 3: He was like, I like to just I like to

576
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 3: give gifts. And then he he showed me all of

577
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 3: these these beautiful costumes that he had in his place

578
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 3: because he loved to play dress up.

579
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: Also, Oh that's cool, I genuinely think. Okay, So he

580
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: died suddenly in twenty twenty of Pancreatis. His wife lays

581
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: the blame at COVID's feet, and that seems completely possible,

582
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: and I think we he really lost something he was

583
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: I believe fifty nine when he died.

584
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 3: I would have given anything to have him now talking

585
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 3: about the shit with Israel and the genocide.

586
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah, Like I just honestly, like, I never really,

587
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: like gave much credence to the idea of a public

588
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: intellectual until kind of seeing the impact that he was

589
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: able to have. And David Graeber did a lot of

590
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: anthropological research on Madagascar specifically, and one of his last books,

591
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: probably the last book of his to be published in English.

592
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: This book was first published in French in twenty nineteen

593
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: and then in English in twenty twenty three, three years

594
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 2: after his death. I phrased it that way because I

595
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: don't know how to pronounce post hum humorously, honestly.

596
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: Posthumously humously, I think.

597
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, nope, and maybe it's not. And if you're listening,

598
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 2: don't tell me. I don't want to, because I could

599
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: look it up if I really cared, but I don't.

600
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: And so it's also my one it's my lys favorite

601
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: word to say.

602
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 2: I know right, it's no good. This book is called

603
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 2: Pirate Enlightenment or the Real Libertalia, and more than anything

604
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: else is it's my primary source for this particular episode,

605
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: because frankly, I am not aware of other sources worth

606
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: taking seriously on this topic, because all the rest are

607
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: random myths and lies. But first, back to pirates, and

608
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: by that I mean back to ads. The lead tailed

609
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 2: gecko has told me to sell. You all should give

610
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: me things. Just leave things out under a linden tree

611
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: and I will come and pick them up.

612
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 4: Right.

613
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: Also, here's other ads.

614
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 4: We're back.

615
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: I don't think I could recognize the indantry.

616
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 3: I feel like it's something from old songs. I don't

617
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 3: think I could recognize it either.

618
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 2: Maybe they only have them in England. Again, if you

619
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 2: are listening and you know the answer, don't tell me.

620
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: I could look it up if I wanted to know.

621
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 2: Why am I complaining about people? Anyway? Whatever pirates, Europe

622
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 2: was doing some wild expansion throughout the seventeenth century. They're

623
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: off conquering and colonizing willy nilly. By the end of

624
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: the seventeenth century, he star again the Enlightenment and well,

625
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 2: here's the part of the script that it does the

626
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: thing we already talked about. So now I have to

627
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 2: figure out where to skip ahead to. But I'm going

628
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: to actually skip to a David Graeber quote specifically on

629
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: this idea. The European Enlightenment was, more than anything else,

630
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: an age of intellectual synthesis. Were previously intellectual backwaters like

631
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: England and France that suddenly found themselves at the center

632
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: of global empires and exposed for them startling new ideas

633
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: were trying to integrate, for instance, ideas of individualism and

634
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: liberty drawn from the Americas, a new conception of the

635
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: bureaucratic nation state largely inspired by China, African contract theories,

636
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: and economic and social theories originally developed in medieval Islam.

637
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: And what does that have to do with pirates? Well,

638
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: all of these wild ideas you can't play around with

639
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: them in an existing monarchy, very easily, right.

640
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 3: No, you can't play around with ideas and monarchies. The

641
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 3: monarch tends to cut off your head for that. Yeah.

642
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: No, like classically not a popular thing to do around this,

643
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: you know, in the middle of the seventeenth century and

644
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: all the like, people who are like, what if there's

645
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 2: no such thing as sin and we can do polyamory

646
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: and they were like, We're going to drill holes through

647
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: your tongue. Those are the ranters. We did an episode

648
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: about them. Nice Nice, So at the colonial fringes in

649
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: the desolated lands of genocide and extermination, you could play

650
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: around with these ideas, so, you know, go to murder

651
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 2: all the people in North America who gave you these ideas,

652
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: and then you can play around with them. What could

653
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,719
Speaker 2: go wrong? The pirates, viewed within this framework are among

654
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 2: the people playing around with enlightenment ideas. They had direct democracies.

655
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: In case I don't think I like cover this too clearly,

656
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 2: like the average pirate ship in the oldie Golden Age,

657
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: pirates elected their captains and the only two official posts

658
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: was captain and quartermaster. Most decisions were made at assemblies.

659
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 2: The quartermaster was actually in charge of the assemblies. In

660
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: a lot of ways, the captain resembles what would be

661
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 2: called anthropologically a war chief, someone who's in charge only

662
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: during times of war. Most decisions were democratically made except

663
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: during the middle of a fight. On pirate ships. That

664
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 2: is the big reveal that I suspected a lot of

665
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 2: people listening already.

666
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 3: Know, so they were actually doing the kind of assemblies

667
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 3: that I feel like we were trying to do an

668
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 3: Occupy Wall Street that people were trying to do in

669
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 3: all of the Occupy the Squares type rebellions that happened

670
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 3: in twenty eleven, but they were working.

671
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 2: Okay, but even wilder than that. Yeah, the Pirate ones

672
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 2: were mostly I believe, majority vote, but the Malagasy ones

673
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: that we're going to talk about in a little bit

674
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: were consensus. Holy fuck, and Graber is one of the

675
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 2: primary people who helped set up Occupy Wall Street. Occupy

676
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: Wall Street owsen in in credible amount directly to the

677
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 2: Malagasy like culture of consensus decision making at assembly.

678
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 3: This is amazing. I yeah, you blew my mind. Like

679
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: I obviously I knew David helped set up Occupy, but

680
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 3: I okay, my mind is blown. My mind is blown

681
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 3: by this.

682
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 2: And there is there is a previous history of consensus

683
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 2: decision making on the left in the United States, coming

684
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: from the anti nuke movement, right, But like you know,

685
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 2: I think that this is still a valid thread to

686
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: be drawn because he had been doing a lot of

687
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 2: this anthropological research before Occupy Wall Street. I think he

688
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 2: did it when he was just getting when he was

689
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 2: in school, actually, some of his earlier research on this.

690
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 2: And so these pirates they're setting up direct democracies and

691
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: they have social contracts that are one hundred years ahead

692
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 2: of their time, and it helped. I'm sure that any

693
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 2: given ship was full of people from all over the world.

694
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: There was escaped slaves and indigenous people and Arabic people

695
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 2: and all kinds of white people from different countries. So

696
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 2: of course they tried some shit together. And also pirates

697
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 2: like to spin their own legends. They had to write

698
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 2: the fear of the black flag is a fundamental part

699
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 2: of their economic and military strategy. They don't want to fight,

700
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: they want people to surrender, and so they spread legends.

701
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: And one of the legends, ironically, they both would spread

702
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: their legend about like, oh, man, our guy black Beard,

703
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 2: he's gonna fucking flay you, right, because you want everyone

704
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: to think that, so you surrender when you see fucking

705
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 2: black Beard.

706
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 3: And then you don't lose half your crew.

707
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, Like getting into gunfights is always a

708
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 2: bad idea, Like you.

709
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, I know, it's much better to be so

710
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 3: scary that the other person doesn't fuck with you in

711
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 3: the first place.

712
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that has actually literally been my strategy. Is like

713
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: when I was like a street kid, people don't know

714
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: what to make of me. I'm not particularly large, but

715
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 2: I'm strange looking, and it's kept me safe. Another legend

716
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 2: that they would spread is kind of this the story

717
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 2: of their democracy. So in a way that I didn't

718
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: really realize, pirates themselves kind of influenced probably the creation

719
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: of modern democratic states were both better and worse.

720
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 3: So they were spreading the story of the democracy so

721
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 3: that when they got onto some ship that is filled

722
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 3: with poor press ganged British guys who are like literally

723
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,439
Speaker 3: having their teeth fall out of scurvy, the poor press

724
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 3: ganged British guys won't fight them because they think that

725
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 3: they can join up with the pirates and have a

726
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 3: better life.

727
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: Is that that the strategy, So that's my read on it.

728
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: I'm not one hundred percent certain. I'm kind of conjecturing.

729
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 2: I've read that they would spread this thing, the legend

730
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: of their democracy, and I reached a kind of similar

731
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: conclusion because actually one of the main ways that new

732
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 2: pirates crews would form was direct mutiny. It wouldn't even

733
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: be that a lot of crews would form, like you

734
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: were talking about, where pirates would show up and be like, hey,

735
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: you want to be pirates or you want to die,

736
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 2: It's easy choice, you know. And other times people would

737
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 2: be like, hey, we fucking hate our captain, We're not

738
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: even getting paid. Let's have a mutiny. And then once

739
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: you have a mutiny, you're like, well, if we go

740
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 2: to any civilized port, we're now dead, right right, you know,

741
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: so I guess we're fucking pirates now, and so you

742
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: can have this like cultural spread if people have these ideas.

743
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 2: I could know more about this than I do. I'm

744
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 2: a little bit conjecturing here.

745
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 3: And by civilized port you mean like ports of European christiandom.

746
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 2: I am also under the impression to include like places

747
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 2: in South Asia, and I'm not. I couldn't tell you

748
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 2: one one or the other about how the Ottomans were

749
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: treating pirates at this time, because obviously, like pirate versus

750
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 2: privateer is like such a funny distinction, right, privateer as

751
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: an official charter to go around and do piracy and

752
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: a pirate doesn't. And so a pirate is like an

753
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: the enemy of all nations. I don't know my inference,

754
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 2: and I have one reason to draw this, which has

755
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: to do with a later thing that involves some some

756
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 2: folks in South Asia being real mad at the pirates.

757
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 2: Is that enemy of all nations? Like meant everywhere that

758
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 2: considered itself civilized, which I would assume would mean Swanna,

759
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 2: Western Europe and South Asia and presumably East Asia, but

760
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: I know way less about East Asian piracy. That's my

761
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 2: best guess.

762
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 3: There was an amazing woman pirate from China. Yeah, yeah,

763
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 3: who needs an episode like most successful pirate of all time?

764
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 2: No exactly. That's literally why I don't know as much

765
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 2: about it yet is that I'm planning to do a

766
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 2: whole episodes about her.

767
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 3: Fuck yes, fuck yes.

768
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 2: And then these pirates, they're trying out all these different ideas,

769
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 2: according to both legend and anthropology alike, they would try

770
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: out new social forms on various islands like Libertalia, the

771
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 2: Legend of Libertalia. Honestly, it's kind of a bummer of

772
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: a story. All of these pirates, none of them indigenous

773
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: to Madagascar, show up and create this racially diverse democratic

774
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: utopia based on private property and it's sort of like

775
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 2: a proto USA, but less immediately racist than the USA.

776
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 2: But it's also kind of involve in the slave trade,

777
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 2: so it's not really all that much better. And then

778
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: all of a sudden they're killed by indigenous people for

779
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 2: no reason. That's the story.

780
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 3: Reason never, no, no reason at all.

781
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. David Graeber writes about this quote, it would appear

782
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: likely that there was no captain mission or a settlement

783
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: called Libertalia, but there most certainly were pirate settlements on

784
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 2: the Malagasy coast, and what's more, they were the place

785
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 2: for radical social experiments. Pirates did experiment with new forms

786
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 2: of governance and property arrangements. What's more, so did members

787
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: of the surrounding Malagassy communities into which they married, many

788
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 2: of whom had lived in their settlements, sailed in their

789
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 2: ships and formed blood brotherhood pacts, and spent many hours

790
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 2: in political conversation with them. Which is to say Libertalia

791
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: isn't real. Instead, the thing that happened is so much

792
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: more interesting. There was, however, a direct inspiration for the

793
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: Libertalia story, so in a way, there kind of was

794
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 2: a Libertalia. There was this pirate utopian an island and

795
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 2: it was destroyed by the locals. And it was destroyed

796
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: by the locals for a good reason. What was that slavery?

797
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 3: Shockingly, when you break into people's houses and drag them

798
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 3: off screaming to do the shit work on the other

799
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 3: side of the ocean, they don't like you, and then

800
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 3: they kick you out.

801
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 2: I know, who would have known?

802
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, shocker, shocker.

803
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 2: An awful lot of early Golden Age pirates actually spent

804
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 2: their time in the Indian Ocean, not the Caribbean. The

805
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: Caribbean kind of comes a little bit later. It comes

806
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 2: both before and later, but the main Golden Age we

807
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: talked about is in the Caribbean, whereas like a couple

808
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 2: decades earlier, it's in the Indian Ocean. Trade was richer

809
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: over in the Indian Ocean at the time. Europe was

810
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 2: really only just starting to not be a backwater and

811
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 2: these pirates needed a home base, and Madagascar was perfect.

812
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 2: The East India Company didn't claim it, and neither did

813
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 2: the British Royal African Company, which was running slavery. They

814
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 2: especially settled on the northeast of the island, away from

815
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: the Malagasy kingdoms elsewhere on the island, not that there

816
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,720
Speaker 2: weren't people there, but there was like some larger political

817
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 2: institutions elsewhere. In particular, they settled on an island called

818
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 2: Nosey Boraja from sixteen ninety one to sixteen ninety nine.

819
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: For eight years there was a pirate community there. The

820
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: population of pirates and locals alike that would ebb and

821
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 2: flow from like thirty to one thousand. It seemed like

822
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: pirates would take some time away from the ocean there.

823
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 2: Some would smuggle themselves back into the regular world on

824
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: passing merchant ships. Some would live on the island permanently.

825
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 2: Mostly they would like move to the mainland and get married.

826
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: But we'll get to that. And so these pirates, they're

827
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: robbing the shit out of ships in the Indian Ocean,

828
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: and they needed somewhere to fence their stolen goods. And

829
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 2: that's where these pirate islands historically come in. This or

830
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 2: that merchant will set themselves up on an island, they'll

831
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 2: build a fortress, they will declare themselves the pirate king,

832
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 2: and then they will fence stole and goods to and

833
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: also corrupt but ostensibly above board merchant.

834
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 3: So are these merchants the only people declaring themselves pirate

835
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 3: kings because the pirate ship captains were not declaring themselves

836
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 3: pirate kings. Was pirate Kings only a marketing thing?

837
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 2: Okay, so I believe that it was only a marketing thing. However,

838
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,959
Speaker 2: I believe that mostly these merchants were calling themselves pirate kings.

839
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 2: But occasionally other pirate captains would get called pirate kings

840
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 2: or call themselves pirate kings or whatever. But it largely

841
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 2: was a marketing thing. This idea of like the charismatic

842
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 2: leader of all the pirates type thing was a marketing

843
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: ploy like, don't fuck with us, y'all got kings, we

844
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 2: got a king. Don't worry, you can't fuck with us.

845
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: We got a king, you know. And the above board

846
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 2: merchants who would show up on Madagascar or to this

847
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: island off Madagascar were slavers from New York City. That's

848
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 2: the big above ground organization.

849
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 3: Oh New York City, Oh New York Yeah.

850
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 2: Who Yeah, I'm gonna go down a rabbit hole in

851
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: a second. You might know more about them, but I'm

852
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: a find out.

853
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 3: Okay, no, no, tell me, I bet you do, go

854
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 3: down the rabbit hole.

855
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: So basically, these merchants from New York would send out

856
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 2: ships with gunpowder and supplies. And this is like the

857
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: fucking opposite side of the world, right when I picture

858
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 2: places that are far from New York City, Mattagascar is

859
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 2: one of the first places I would think of as

860
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: being far from Every hemisphere is different here. But on

861
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: the other hand, people are coming around the so whatever anyway,

862
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 2: So they would send out ships with gunpowder and supplies

863
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 2: and all the like live off of this stuff, you know,

864
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 2: stuff from New York City, and they would bring back

865
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 2: treasure to sell and then kind of their their cover

866
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: story is this slavery. The people on the Pirate Island

867
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: are like less excited about the slavery, but they're still

868
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 2: okay with it, and whereas New York City is like

869
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: they're okay with the fencing stolen goods, but they're like

870
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 2: more into it for the slavery because.

871
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 3: The slavery is respectable in America and the fence and

872
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 3: goods might get you in trouble with the Western power

873
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 3: who those goods were stolen from.

874
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: I think so, and we'll talk about why in a

875
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: little bit. But a decent chunk of New York City's

876
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 2: slave population was Malagassy.

877
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 3: Holy fuck, I had no idea.

878
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 2: And you want to know how we learned how we

879
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 2: know that there's a bunch of enslave Malagassy folks and

880
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 2: old new and like colonial New York. How because of

881
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:30,479
Speaker 2: a side tangent called the Conspiracy of seventeen forty one.

882
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: You ever heard of this?

883
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 3: Okay? So I had heard of. I don't know if

884
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 3: this is the Conspiracy of seventeen forty one, but I

885
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 3: had heard of a bunch of enslaved people in New

886
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 3: York basically got together and planned like a big ass

887
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 3: armed revolt that took a ton of firepower to put down.

888
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,479
Speaker 3: But I do not know if that was seventeen forty

889
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 3: one or one of many other times that enslaved people

890
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 3: decided to kick out their enslavers and get free.

891
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 2: Try and do some shit. Yeah, I think that might

892
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 2: have been a different one, but I'm not sure. This

893
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: one seems to be one of the more talked about one.

894
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 2: But that's less because of like shit that actually went down,

895
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 2: and more about the way that, like the trials and

896
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: stuff worked. And I was reading that, like for like

897
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 2: twenty years before this, there was like a new slaver

898
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 2: vault in New York City every like two years or so.

899
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 3: Understandable.

900
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, in seventeen forty one, black slaves, freed black people

901
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 2: and Irish indentured servants conspired to burn down New York City,

902
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 2: and the Irish indentured servants they were suspected of being

903
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: Catholic spies. Like literally they got killed for being undercover priests.

904
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 2: Because the fuck did you know that in the year

905
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 2: seventeen hundred they passed laws where you got life in

906
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: prison if you were a Catholic priest in New York

907
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 2: What the fuck?

908
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 3: I had no idea.

909
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 2: No, I had no idea either, Holy fuck man. Yeah,

910
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 2: And so a bunch of people realizing that they're all

911
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: on the same like that their class interests actually align,

912
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 2: even though some of them are free and some of

913
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: them aren't, and some you know, they tried to have

914
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: a big old revolt. Probably probably why. Probably so a

915
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 2: bunch of stuff did burn. But the way that this

916
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 2: conspiracy was like persecuted was Salem witch trial. Basically shit Jesus.

917
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:23,959
Speaker 3: So these secret evil spies for the pope are going

918
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 3: around doing their like crazy ass Catholic things and like

919
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 3: making enslaved people not like being beaten and raped and

920
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 3: like and now we're going to like put rocks on

921
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 3: people's chests. Until they came in to say that like

922
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 3: the devil made them think that it's bad to be

923
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 3: a slave.

924
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 2: Not the furthest from that, and like stop giving the

925
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 2: pope so much credit, you know, not you, but the

926
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 2: authorities basically they started getting people to crack and then

927
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 2: name names. And these names were like there's no real

928
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 2: particular reason to believe that they're reliable, and so it's

929
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 2: like hard to know if this conspiracy happened, but it

930
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: was kind of this ass panic around this stuff happening,

931
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 2: and a lot of people were arrested. I didn't write

932
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 2: down the numbers, and the low hundreds I think, and

933
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 2: several dozen people were killed by the authorities, and specifically

934
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 2: enslave people were either hanged or fucking burned at the stake.

935
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 3: The fuck fucking new.

936
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: Well Irish people were hanged.

937
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 3: They had to like racially stratify executions fucking people.

938
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, come on, like which is always funny too, right,

939
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 2: because it's like like overall the history of like Irish's

940
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 2: whiteness in America is very complicated, and people make sweeping generalizations.

941
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 2: The Irish have always had it better than black people

942
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 2: in the United States, but were also criminalized. It just

943
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: was a racial category below white and above black, you know,

944
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 2: but it was above black, so they didn't get burned

945
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 2: at the steak. I guess there also were fewer of them,

946
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 2: so it could be that they just like didn't get lucky.

947
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 2: And when the I don't know whatever, I found a

948
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 2: book about This'm probably gon do the episodes about it.

949
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:03,879
Speaker 3: You have to do an episode about this. I would

950
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 3: listen to the shit out of this episode.

951
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I only know like the surface level stuff

952
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,240
Speaker 2: about this so far. But back to our pirate haven

953
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 2: that is not so great On Wednesday, you're gonna have

954
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 2: to wait to find out. Here's a hint. They're all

955
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 2: gonna die and they're all gonna have deserved it. Oh

956
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 2: you gotta wait ti Wednesday to find out what happened.

957
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 3: Oh no, So the man in the patch pants was wrong.

958
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: He was wrong. Unfortunately, often people who die at the

959
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,280
Speaker 2: age of twenty one haven't yet been able to develop

960
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 2: more complex historical analyses. But you know, his heart was

961
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: in the right place. Also, I think he'd like the

962
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:44,399
Speaker 2: real version so much more so if you're listening Dark Star,

963
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 2: you'll like it. But do you have anything you want

964
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 2: to plug?

965
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 3: Well, I am working on a book about the Jewish

966
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 3: labor boond, but it's gonna come out so far in

967
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 3: the future, probably next fall, that I'm just gonna ask

968
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 3: you to cherish our open your hearts for it eventually

969
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 3: being published, you know, believe in it like tinker Bell.

970
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 5: Uh.

971
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 3: And other than that, I'm illustrating a children's book about

972
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 3: someone who is the exact opposite of a pirate. She

973
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 3: is Queen nor Jahan of India, the first female sovereign

974
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 3: of the Mughal Empire. Whoa, And she killed tigers and

975
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 3: rode war elephants into battle and whoa. Yes, I know,

976
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 3: like no kings, no gods, no masters, but like so interesting.

977
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 3: Yeah you have to fucking you have to love a

978
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 3: fucking Mughal empress.

979
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: Yeah fuck yeah. Well the Mughal Empire is going to

980
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 2: be in part two of this.

981
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 3: Actually, oh my god, amazing.

982
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 2: I just don't know a ton about them, so I

983
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 2: can't provide like broader context around them yet, you know, so,

984
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 2: but you do. And people can check out Molly's existing stuff,

985
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 2: including a ton of art that's like, Actually, what I

986
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 2: mostly personally know you for is that your art was

987
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 2: just like often everywhere in different like political spaces and

988
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 2: stuff like that. It's really beautiful art. People should check

989
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: it out.

990
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah, you can go to mollikrabapple dot com

991
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 3: and check out my work, or you can go to Instagram,

992
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 3: where I feel like I'm hopping like Pavlov's dog to

993
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 3: show like my process of painting. And I'm always drawing many, many,

994
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 3: many many things because that's how I interface with the

995
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 3: world because I can't do it normally fair enough.

996
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 2: I hide and research things. But I guess you also

997
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: do that if you want to follow me. I'm also

998
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: on Instagram. I'm on substack. I write about a lot

999
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 2: of stuff on there. I usually kind of go in

1000
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: deeper or a little bit more like personal on topics

1001
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 2: I cover here on this show. Everything that's more political

1002
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 2: is free. Everything that's like super personal. You can subscribe

1003
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 2: and then you can read my tour diaries. Oh, I'm

1004
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 2: on tour right now, that's the thing I'm supposed to plug.

1005
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 2: Oh fine, I am like currently on book tour, and

1006
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: by that I mean I came home two days ago

1007
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 2: and I leave tomorrow to continue on and I'll be

1008
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: gone for six weeks further on tour. So if you

1009
00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 2: live across the north and middle of the United States,

1010
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 2: I will probably come vaguely near you. And then eventually

1011
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: I will plan the rest of the tour where I'll

1012
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 2: go down through California and out east and go everywhere

1013
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 2: with me and my dog and my truck. And it's

1014
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 2: supposed to be my van, but my van broke down.

1015
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 2: I've already complained about this in other podcasts a bunch

1016
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: of times. My transmission died. I'm really frustrated by it.

1017
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 2: But I have a truck, so I'll travel in the truck.

1018
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 2: And yesterday, and this is completely totally of interest to everyone,

1019
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 2: I got a truck cap on my truck by myself,

1020
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,879
Speaker 2: and it is the most physical feat thing I've ever

1021
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 2: done in my life. And it took so many ratchet straps.

1022
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 3: What's a truck cap.

1023
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 2: Oh, it's the thing on the back of a pickup

1024
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 2: truck that makes it like covered, you know.

1025
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 3: Oh cool, that's awesome.

1026
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:40,879
Speaker 2: They're very heavy and I had taken it off because

1027
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 2: I needed my truck to like move mulch and stuff,

1028
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 2: and so just like under some trees in my yard

1029
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: was my old truck cap from when I try used

1030
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 2: to travel more in my truck, which I'm gonna do again.

1031
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 2: And this is a totally related Sophia. Anything you want to.

1032
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 4: Plug, there's anything specific I want to plug from all

1033
00:52:58,640 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 4: of our stuff.

1034
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 2: Zone Media, well, there's cooler.

1035
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 4: Zone Media and the Android version is coming very soon.

1036
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 4: I actually have a meeting about that tomorrow that I

1037
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 4: think is me being like, yes, please fucking do it,

1038
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 4: and then I want to plug. Ed to Trund's Better

1039
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 4: Offline just got a nice little write up in Vulture

1040
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 4: and Ed Ed worked very hard on that show. So

1041
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 4: if you're interested in tech stuff, Ed.

1042
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 2: I increasingly feel like I would be better Offline.

1043
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm interested in the way that I am

1044
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 3: interested in looking at any mortal enemies, which I feel

1045
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 3: like Ed is really good at covering it like that.

1046
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.

1047
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 2: If you want to hear someone scream at people who

1048
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 2: are terrible, but like in a really comforting way, it's

1049
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 2: a good show for it, exactly, all right. Also, a

1050
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: good show is part two with this on Wednesday, I'll

1051
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 2: talk to you all.

1052
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 5: That Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production

1053
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,240
Speaker 5: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool zone Media,

1054
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 5: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

1055
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 5: us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

1056
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: You get your podcasts. H