WEBVTT - Connecting the Dots 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.480 you killed my sister. You can listen to The Girlfriends 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.680 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.919 your podcasts. This is the story of a man who's 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.280 fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.600 a name you don't forget. He was a visionary who 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.720 built a fortune as a black man during Jim Crow 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:26.440 during the Depression, but today not many people know about him. 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:29.640 The race sort of wiped out, and I wonder if 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.480 this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:39.280 the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.600 I'm free and I'm rthy. We have spent the last 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.640 twenty years building and working at some of the largest 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.640 companies in the world. We worked with some remarkable people. 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:51.360 Rob mcalinney. When I see the people of Wrexham, I 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.840 grew up exactly like them. Check out the ARTHI and 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:58.840 Trrom show. That is a R D HI and s 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.720 R I R A M show. Listen to the Art 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.640 the Industry M Show on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcast Oh, 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:13.160 whenever you get to your podcasts. No Wagner family DNA 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.400 was found on a crime scene. Does it matter to 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.720 this case? I would say that they absolutely need some 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:23.680 sort of physical evidence. It clearly isn't happening with the DNA. 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:26.960 Does the shoe prints and it's the ballistics that's without 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:31.040 Guy juror's eyes were glued to the latest witness to 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:40.320 testify in George Wagner the Fourth's murder trial. This is 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.400 the Piked and Massacre returned to Pike County season four, 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:51.440 episode nine, Connecting the dots. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:55.080 producer at KATI Studios, with Stephanie Ladecker and Jeff Shane. 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.480 It's important to note that George Wagner has pleaded not 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:03.480 guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:06.960 Billy Wagner, whose child is upcoming, has also pleaded not 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:11.200 guilty to all charges. Here's Stephanie and Jeff speaking about 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:15.200 some of the revelations from the autopsy results. They mentioned 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:18.000 doctor Karen Luhman, who you may remember is the forensic 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.480 pathologist who performed ali at autopsies and testified at the 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:26.280 child How were three people at Dana Roden's home shot 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.440 in their sleep? I just am trying to wrap my 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.000 head around how the perpetrators were able to walk around 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.440 home shooting one person at a time without waking anyone 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.520 else up. And also, one thing that I thought was 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:40.400 interesting about Lumen's testimony was how she determined that some 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.960 of the shots fired that night were what she called 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:49.160 at intermediate range, which is essentially anywhere between three inches 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:54.480 and three feet from someone, and then others weren't. She said, 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.360 that's based on something called stippling, or actual evidence of 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:02.160 damage to the victim, based on how close the muzzle 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:05.680 of the gun was to the victim itself. Some victims 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.840 had that, and we're seemingly shot at close range, but 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:13.960 some didn't. So the choreographing of all of that seems 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:21.560 so complicated. Who was where when? This morning? Lead Prosecutor 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:25.920 Angie Kaneppa begins by addressing exactly this question. Back on 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:29.360 the stand, is doctor Karen Lehman speaking about Hannah Hazel 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:33.280 Gilly's injuries? Can you tell us we are was gunshot 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:37.320 wound number one located on the diagram? Number one is 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:39.880 on the far left. It looks like it's on the 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:41.960 right forehead. It's a little more on the side of 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.640 the forehead. Doctor, Can you tell us what did you 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:48.800 determine the distance to be of that gunshot wound? That 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:55.080 is intermediate And again that intermediate is somewhere not contact 0:04:55.120 --> 0:05:00.000 or lose contact, but somewhere less than three feet. Yeah, okay, 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.760 shots two, three, and four were indeterminate, while shot five 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:09.320 was again close range or what she calls intermediate. When 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:14.040 you conducted your examination of Hannah Rode in how many 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:18.719 gunshot wounds did you observe her to have? Two? And 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.720 can you tell us if you determined a distance? Yes? 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:27.359 And what was that it was indeterminate? Kneppa has a 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.560 chart where she keeps track of the myriad of gunshots, 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.760 some at a distance, some close, all while the victims 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.440 were asleep. Then she brings up the idea of how 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.760 this might be affected by the use of a silencer. 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.320 And doctor loman I believe you testified to this before. 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:46.960 But do you know or do you have an opinion 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.680 if there was a silencer used on a weapon, would 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:55.880 that possibly impact your distance determinations? It possibly could, Yes, Okay, 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.040 the defense has no choice but to address the introduction 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.599 of a possible use of a silencer as well. On 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.760 the last one of the last points, the prosecute made 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:10.800 the silence, how would that impact your determination of distance? 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:16.240 A silencer in general would fit around or in the 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:20.760 area of the muzzle, and it could capture some of 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.479 the soot or stipling that normally would have landed on 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.840 clothes or the body, it may capture that. So, if 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.600 I understand what you're saying, the distance could actually be 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:41.960 closer than what you have observed. Yes, this is a 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:44.560 turning point in the trial. It's the first of many 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.920 loose threads that the prosecution finally begins to weave together 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.000 for a jury, a public, and a media weary after 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:55.960 weeks of detail specific testimony. So far, the prosecution has 0:06:55.960 --> 0:07:00.720 worked in a meticulous linear fashion, laying out they narrative 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.599 that they want the jury to consider. Here's long crime 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.760 reporter a Jeanette Levy. I've covered a lot of trials 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:12.440 in my career, a lot of criminal cases, but I've 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.960 never seen one presented in this fashion in court, where 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.960 it's all chronological or goes in chronological order of the investigation. 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:23.520 You know, it's a two and a half year investigation 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:27.520 between the time of the homicides and the arrest. Sometimes 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:31.000 it just feels like we're bouncing around a lot. You know, 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.000 it'll be up to the jury to determent whether or 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.160 not that was a good strategy. I've often wondered, are 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:43.800 they confused by this? Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:47.520 in Cincinnati now with Local twelve. When it comes to 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:51.280 physical evidence, it's the shoe prints, and it's the ballistics 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.360 that's without God. And this is exactly how the prosecution 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.760 begins to connect the dots and tighten the news on 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:02.360 George and the Wagner family. Today, prosecutors present some of 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.280 the most crucial evidence yet in the trial of George 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:08.240 Wagner the Fourth in the Pike County massacre. Local twelve 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:11.440 James Pilcher reports on key footprints that were found at 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.200 the scene. Susan Elliott, a shoeprint specialist for the Ohia 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:17.880 Bureau of Criminal Investigation at the time of the murders, 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:20.880 declined to be on camera with her testimony, but she 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.160 matched footprints found at the first crime scene with an 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.960 actual shoe style in size. Juror's eyes were glued to 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:31.000 the latest witness to testify in George Wagner the Fourth's 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:36.560 murder trial as she opened large pizza boxes inside pieces 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.760 of flooring cut from one of the Pike County crime seats, 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.320 the trailer on Union Hill Road where Chris Rodin Senior 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.079 and Gary Rodin were murdered. She said these impressions that 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.080 have since been enhanced were not in the Crime Labs 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:56.439 shoe database. You may recall from last season the testimony 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:01.240 of shoeprint expert William Bodsiac during pre trial motions. Bodsiac, 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.560 who worked on the oj Simpson case, stated that investigators 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.600 finally found the model shoe that made the prince at Walmart. 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:13.280 It was Susan Elliott who made the actual discovery. James Pilcher, 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:15.920 She's the one who found at all. She was the 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:18.360 one that newd'll be looking out for the Walmart shoes 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:22.080 because she remembered, you know, our shoeprin expert found these 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:23.960 shoes of Walmarts, so we need to be looking for 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:28.839 anything for Walmar. Here is testimony for Brian Scheiterer had 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.439 BCI investigator who provided testimony the same day about how 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:37.360 they use that information. As a result of learning that 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:40.439 you were looking for a size eleven shoe that you 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.360 believed belonged to whoever committed these murders, or at least 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:47.360 one of the individuals, what did you guys do in 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.480 response to that information? It was decided that we would 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:55.760 contact the Walmarts within a fifty mile radius of Pike 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.880 County and asked for all their records for transactions and 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:04.160 holding that shoe dated back to January first of twenty sixteen. 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:11.000 In in addition to getting the records of any transactions, 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.920 did you also get a request and receive video surveillance 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:21.520 that corresponded with those Yes. As we know from previous episodes, 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.080 this is how the recorded video of Angela buying the 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:28.080 same model she is was found. Subsequently, they then seized 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.880 a receipt from the purchase. Here's Jeff speaking with Mike 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.839 Allen and your expertise as a lawyer. How big is 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.320 this piece of evidence? It's really big because you've got 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:44.800 the receipt for purchasing them, they match up in size, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.680 and then of course she got the bloody footprint in 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:53.400 one of the trailers. So it's very strong evidence. And 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:55.920 I think that's something that the jury is going to 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.880 be thinking about. And do you think, you know without 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:03.320 DNA evidence, this shoeprint is maybe the closest thing we have. 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.600 How much weight can the prosecution put on it? Well, 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:08.280 I think they can put a lot of weight on it. 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.080 I mean, the odds of it being some kind of 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:15.760 coincidence are in the millions, So I think they'll put 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.240 a lot of weight on it's it's real strong evidence 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:22.520 for the state. What's the defense's counter argument to this? 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.760 How do they defend the shoeprint? I guess you would 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.440 have to argue that it's a pretty popular brand of 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.520 shoe at Walmart. You'd have to do your homework and it. 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.800 I don't know any other way to do that, because, 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.600 like I said, it's such strong evidence, you'd have to 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:41.719 argue that, well, you know, it is what it is. 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.600 But they were in a real tough position on that one. 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:46.120 I don't know how they're going to do it. You're 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.959 just gonna have to argue coincidence, and I don't think 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:54.520 the jury's going to buy that. Here's forensic death investigator 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:59.280 Joseph Scott Morgan. Well, for me, shoe prints till everything. 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:06.480 The shoe prints are indicative of purpose. They're indicative of 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.760 thought and care being taken when it comes to planning. 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.880 Because from where did the shoe prints originate? Well, they 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:21.440 originated from a pear shoes that were purchased for the 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:27.080 sole purpose of, you know, following through with this horrible plan. 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:31.040 We've already got Angela Wagner actually stating that she purchased 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.040 the shoes and for them to have the utility to 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:40.640 go out for them to commit these crops. Next, Angel 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:44.440 Wilson turns to ballistics mister White, where do you work? 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:48.880 I work at the Bureau of Criminal Investigation also known 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:54.240 as BCA in London, Ohio. We have been able to 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:59.240 gather from preliminary motions and prosecution filings that there is 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:03.600 a connection, they assert between shell casings found at at 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:07.520 least one of the crime scenes and weapons link back 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.520 to the Wagner family. So we do expect that this 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.880 ballistics expert will prove a very important to this case. 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.920 White is a striking presence on the stand. He wears 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.600 a broad shouldered black three piece suit and sports a 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.439 wide flat beard that ends the midway down his chest. 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.320 When Matt White comes to work in London, Ohio, VCI, 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:31.200 what does he do every day? Our primary duties involved 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.760 examination of firearms to determine their operability, as well as 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.920 looking at fired ammunition components, be it a fire cartridge 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:42.000 case or a fire bullet. I can perform microscopic examinations 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.800 to determine if they've been fired in or from a 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.800 particular farm, and if not, I can generate a potential 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.080 list of firms that could have been fired from I 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:57.040 want to take you back to April two sixteen, April 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:00.559 twenty sixteen. At some point, were you asked through a 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.360 dam of candidates that have been collected as part of 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:09.400 an investigation of an eight person homicide in Pike count Yes, 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:13.120 I was. And can you tell the jury how were 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.120 you initially brought into this case or asked to assist? 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:22.240 My supervisors notified us that there was a larger case 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.040 that was coming into laboratory, and I just happened to 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.880 be the person selected to work the case at the time. 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.200 White goes on to testify that he identified two types 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.920 of bullets at Chris Senior's home, thirty caliber bullets from 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:40.480 a high profiled rifle and forty caliber bullets from an 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:44.880 unknown firearm. Crime scene too, the home of Frankie Rowden 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:49.160 and Hannah Hazel Gilly was a different story. Were several 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.840 of the items that you examined from this scene shell 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.560 casings had been recovered by the crime scene unit? Yes 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:59.200 they were. Yes, this is one fired watching long rifle 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.960 cartridge case. The fact that that cartridge has the name 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.840 long rifle, does that mean that it has to be 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.240 or can only be fired out of a rifle. Now 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:13.640 certainly not twenty long rifle cartridge is generic. It can 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.840 be fired in a pistol, revolver, a rifle, any fire 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.120 that's designed to actually fire that specific cartridge. Were you 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:26.800 also asked to again, I didn't. It came from seeing three? Yes, 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.800 I was. Was one of the items that you were 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:35.080 asked to look at with respect the scene three as 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.680 shell casing. That was our cartridge casing that was recovered 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:43.240 from under a crib in this residence. Yes, that's correct. 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:47.280 This is a fire twenty two long rifle cartridge case 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:52.000 Remickton brand with a rectangular wedge shaped fine pin impressure. 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.800 That item had the same general class characteristics as the 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.520 shell casings that you just testified too from scene two. Yes, 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:04.480 that's correct, and again, are those consistent with the other 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.440 projectiles recovered? An autopsy of the other victims have seen 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:11.520 three and the other victims have seen two. Yes, they 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:17.760 are Stephanie and Jeff. So we have two types of 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.840 bullets found at the scene. We have thirty caliber high 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:24.200 powered rifle bullets and forty caliber bullets found in Chris 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.560 Senior's home. And we know from Fortner's testimony last week 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.520 that the thirty calibers were sprayed from outside the trailer 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:32.680 and the forties were founds have gone through the floor 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.200 and into the dirt below the home, so they were 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.800 shot inside. Now here's where it gets confusing, because at 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.760 Frankie and Dana Roden's homes they found twenty two caliber bullets. 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.680 Does that mean that whoever did this, whether it's one 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.440 person or many people, did they do that by switching 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:55.120 out guns mid murder scene? Or does that mean they 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:59.240 almost divided and conquered and that different family members were 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:03.400 using different guns and that they were committing these murders simultaneously. 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.840 They moved on to crime scene for Kenneth Rowden's house, 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.640 if you recall there was only one shot fired. Stay 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:18.240 divot D two eighty two. You've already opened her up. 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:23.600 Do you recognize the marketings on that package? Yes, laboratory number, 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:28.320 item number, and my initials, and we're able to examine 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.720 that item and reach any conclusion with respect to brand 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:35.000 and caliber associated with that. Yes, I was able to 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:39.280 conclude this as a fired forty Smith and Wesson cartridge case. 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:44.040 Hornedy brand is were you asked to make some comparisons 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:49.000 in this case to determine whether or not certain pieces 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.359 of evidence had been fired by the same weapon at 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.520 each scene. Yes, I was. Were you able to reach 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:59.040 a conclusion to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty as 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.440 to whether or not the forty caliber shell casing a 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.399 scene one was fired from the same firearm that fired 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.920 the forty caliber shell casing the scene forty. Yes, Based 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:13.200 on my microscopic comparison examining the two fired forty Smith 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.000 and Weston Cartridge cases, I was able to conclude the 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:20.360 two forty Smith and Weston Cartridge cases had been fired 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:27.320 in the same firearm. Media outlets jumped on the breaking news. Today, 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.760 prosecutors turned to the bullets used in all eight murders. 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.440 The casings included a forty caliber shell found on Chris 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.760 Senior's kitchen floor. He also showed the bullets retrieve from 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:42.240 the victim's bodies. His testimony came after another BCI agent 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.600 walked through the crime scene where police found Chris Senior's brother, 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.480 Kenneth Rowden, shot in his bed. Agents also found a 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:54.480 forty caliber shell in his bed. We're going to take 0:18:54.480 --> 0:19:00.160 a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh, I'm 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.520 Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:07.040 Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:11.040 of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:17.280 He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:22.000 he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:27.080 He really wasn't. He choked into the point she went unconscious. 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:31.600 Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.640 time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.600 girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.960 pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:43.760 I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.119 I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.960 would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.000 always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:56.640 the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:01.280 you get your podcasts from iHeart Podcasts. Whitney hell is 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:05.280 going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.239 a situation like this. I just thought it was just 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.600 a really terrible, immoral thing, a line they won't cross. 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.240 I was stunned, and I just said, no, we're killing people. 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.520 You may never have to face that decision when you 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:21.960 find yourself at that line. Bouncin aren't ricin and somebody 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.960 needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth, 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:29.560 like this is evil and the only person who can 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.840 sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:38.520 sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:40.880 If you are disloyal men, things are going to happen 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.960 to speak out disgrace to our gun. Pevil Pay should 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:49.760 be prosecuted when power corrupts, conscience is the last line 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:54.080 of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:58.560 the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:08.040 My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.080 host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:15.719 award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.960 time to touch incredible guests about important things. People like 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:21.400 me have been screaming for years. We've got to watch 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:23.920 the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what they're 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.640 doing is evil. They will take things away and I 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:30.240 can only hope that Dobbs is that, like Pearl Harbor moment, girl, 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:32.639 you and I both know what it took to just 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:34.880 get through the day in New York City and get 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:37.880 home in one piece. And so the fact that we're 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.000 here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:45.480 that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:48.040 The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:51.480 that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:54.160 us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Laverne 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:58.200 Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:05.840 you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. Hi. 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:08.480 This is Paris Hilton. Some of the best times of 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.600 my life have been spent inside of nightclubs, singing, dancing 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.400 and being free to truly be myself. And now I'm 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.199 the executive producer of a new show, the History of 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:20.960 the World's Greatest Nightclubs. I wanted a show that represented freedom, 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:23.480 joy and hope, and there is no one better to 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:25.880 host than someone who has inspired me for so many 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.520 years with her musical talent. I'm alternate and I've been 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:32.639 in the music industry for three decades. I'm a singer, 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:36.600 songwriter and musician, and now I'm inviting you to join 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:40.119 me on this global nightclub journey. We'll dive into the 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:43.399 origins of genres that broke the industry and uncover the 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.960 stories of legendary DJs, all through the eyes of the 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:50.359 people who partied at the height of club culture. Listen 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:53.000 to the history of the world's greatest nightclubs on the 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:57.720 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:13.159 The next day, the prosecution picks up once again with 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:16.960 testimony from Matthew White. Andrew Wilson is intent on further 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:21.159 closing the loop on the physical ballistic evidence. In addition 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:24.760 to that information that you passed onto your investigators, do 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:28.080 you do further work or further analysis to try to 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:32.680 determine what kind of twenty two or what kind of 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:38.200 forty was involved in these homicides? Yes. Oftentimes, if I'm 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.760 encountered evidence and there's no firearms submitted, I can look 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:45.159 at certain features of the fire cartridge cases or the 0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:48.879 fired bullets to give a possible list of firearms that 0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:51.879 could have fired them. To aid investigators and what they 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.879 should be looking for. In the case of the twenty two, 0:23:55.960 --> 0:24:00.560 he pinpoints the probable gun used. I was able to 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:05.800 examine other examples of test fires taken with Walter cold 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:09.720 nineteen eleven twenty two pistols. I was able to physically 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:15.320 examine a couple different of the specific guns. I was 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:19.679 able to disassemble them, look at them, further, examine the 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:24.840 firing pin itself, take additional test fires for comparison. In 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:30.080 addition to that, I corresponded with a design engineer at 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:34.919 Walter in Germany about the shape the orientation of the 0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:38.800 firing pin impression. He was able to look at some 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:43.080 stock examples at the factory of farms that they were producing, 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:47.520 and he agreed and concurred that the shape of the 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:51.920 firing pin impression and the orientation of it was consistent 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:56.920 with the farms that they produced the Walter nineteen eleven 0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:01.560 twenty two pistols. In the case of the forty caliber, 0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:04.359 he pulls up an enlargement of the bullet casing, pointing 0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:07.600 out marks around the base of it. You can see 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:12.119 the fine pain impression itself. It's elliptical, it is not 0:25:12.560 --> 0:25:18.880 circular in shape. Those two features are very common with 0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:25.439 glock firearms. So based on those observations, again, did you 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:29.040 begin to feel that a block firearm or a forty 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:34.000 Cali block was responsible for shooting the showcasings recover from 0:25:34.080 --> 0:25:38.040 seeing a one in zeen four. Yes, the lock is 0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:43.120 by far the most common firearm encountered that has those 0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:49.600 two characteristics. Next, the prosecution asks a key question of light. 0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:52.679 But at that time, when you were doing your initial 0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:56.280 work in this case, did you have a firearm that 0:25:56.359 --> 0:26:00.280 had been inflected as evidence to compare of from the 0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:05.320 scene or from a suspect. No, I did not to 0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:09.000 understand the recovery of the Wagner's firearms. Brian Scheiderer is 0:26:09.040 --> 0:26:11.120 asked to step back and give the jury a big 0:26:11.160 --> 0:26:15.560 picture on how they began their investigation. Remember, at the time, 0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:19.399 BCI did not yet know the Wagners were involved. Back 0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:23.280 to that very first day, you responded to the Sheriff's office, 0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:26.720 you interviewed some people. Then what happened? Then what did 0:26:26.760 --> 0:26:29.800