1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The Girlfriends 18 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get 19 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,919 Speaker 1: your podcasts. This is the story of a man who's 20 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: a name you don't forget. He was a visionary who 22 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: built a fortune as a black man during Jim Crow 23 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: during the Depression, but today not many people know about him. 24 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: The race sort of wiped out, and I wonder if 25 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on 26 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, 27 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: I'm free and I'm rthy. We have spent the last 28 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: twenty years building and working at some of the largest 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: companies in the world. We worked with some remarkable people. 30 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: Rob mcalinney. When I see the people of Wrexham, I 31 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: grew up exactly like them. Check out the ARTHI and 32 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: Trrom show. That is a R D HI and s 33 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: R I R A M show. Listen to the Art 34 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: the Industry M Show on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcast Oh, 35 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: whenever you get to your podcasts. No Wagner family DNA 36 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: was found on a crime scene. Does it matter to 37 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: this case? I would say that they absolutely need some 38 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: sort of physical evidence. It clearly isn't happening with the DNA. 39 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: Does the shoe prints and it's the ballistics that's without 40 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: Guy juror's eyes were glued to the latest witness to 41 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: testify in George Wagner the Fourth's murder trial. This is 42 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: the Piked and Massacre returned to Pike County season four, 43 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: episode nine, Connecting the dots. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television 44 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: producer at KATI Studios, with Stephanie Ladecker and Jeff Shane. 45 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: It's important to note that George Wagner has pleaded not 46 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, 47 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner, whose child is upcoming, has also pleaded not 48 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: guilty to all charges. Here's Stephanie and Jeff speaking about 49 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: some of the revelations from the autopsy results. They mentioned 50 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: doctor Karen Luhman, who you may remember is the forensic 51 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: pathologist who performed ali at autopsies and testified at the 52 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: child How were three people at Dana Roden's home shot 53 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: in their sleep? I just am trying to wrap my 54 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: head around how the perpetrators were able to walk around 55 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: home shooting one person at a time without waking anyone 56 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: else up. And also, one thing that I thought was 57 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: interesting about Lumen's testimony was how she determined that some 58 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: of the shots fired that night were what she called 59 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: at intermediate range, which is essentially anywhere between three inches 60 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: and three feet from someone, and then others weren't. She said, 61 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: that's based on something called stippling, or actual evidence of 62 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: damage to the victim, based on how close the muzzle 63 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: of the gun was to the victim itself. Some victims 64 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: had that, and we're seemingly shot at close range, but 65 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: some didn't. So the choreographing of all of that seems 66 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: so complicated. Who was where when? This morning? Lead Prosecutor 67 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: Angie Kaneppa begins by addressing exactly this question. Back on 68 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: the stand, is doctor Karen Lehman speaking about Hannah Hazel 69 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: Gilly's injuries? Can you tell us we are was gunshot 70 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: wound number one located on the diagram? Number one is 71 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: on the far left. It looks like it's on the 72 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: right forehead. It's a little more on the side of 73 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: the forehead. Doctor, Can you tell us what did you 74 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: determine the distance to be of that gunshot wound? That 75 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: is intermediate And again that intermediate is somewhere not contact 76 00:04:55,120 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: or lose contact, but somewhere less than three feet. Yeah, okay, 77 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: shots two, three, and four were indeterminate, while shot five 78 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: was again close range or what she calls intermediate. When 79 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: you conducted your examination of Hannah Rode in how many 80 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds did you observe her to have? Two? And 81 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: can you tell us if you determined a distance? Yes? 82 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 1: And what was that it was indeterminate? Kneppa has a 83 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: chart where she keeps track of the myriad of gunshots, 84 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: some at a distance, some close, all while the victims 85 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: were asleep. Then she brings up the idea of how 86 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: this might be affected by the use of a silencer. 87 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: And doctor loman I believe you testified to this before. 88 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: But do you know or do you have an opinion 89 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: if there was a silencer used on a weapon, would 90 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: that possibly impact your distance determinations? It possibly could, Yes, Okay, 91 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: the defense has no choice but to address the introduction 92 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: of a possible use of a silencer as well. On 93 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: the last one of the last points, the prosecute made 94 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: the silence, how would that impact your determination of distance? 95 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: A silencer in general would fit around or in the 96 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: area of the muzzle, and it could capture some of 97 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: the soot or stipling that normally would have landed on 98 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: clothes or the body, it may capture that. So, if 99 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying, the distance could actually be 100 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: closer than what you have observed. Yes, this is a 101 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: turning point in the trial. It's the first of many 102 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: loose threads that the prosecution finally begins to weave together 103 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: for a jury, a public, and a media weary after 104 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: weeks of detail specific testimony. So far, the prosecution has 105 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: worked in a meticulous linear fashion, laying out they narrative 106 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: that they want the jury to consider. Here's long crime 107 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: reporter a Jeanette Levy. I've covered a lot of trials 108 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: in my career, a lot of criminal cases, but I've 109 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: never seen one presented in this fashion in court, where 110 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: it's all chronological or goes in chronological order of the investigation. 111 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: You know, it's a two and a half year investigation 112 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: between the time of the homicides and the arrest. Sometimes 113 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: it just feels like we're bouncing around a lot. You know, 114 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: it'll be up to the jury to determent whether or 115 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: not that was a good strategy. I've often wondered, are 116 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: they confused by this? Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter 117 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: in Cincinnati now with Local twelve. When it comes to 118 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: physical evidence, it's the shoe prints, and it's the ballistics 119 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: that's without God. And this is exactly how the prosecution 120 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: begins to connect the dots and tighten the news on 121 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: George and the Wagner family. Today, prosecutors present some of 122 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: the most crucial evidence yet in the trial of George 123 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: Wagner the Fourth in the Pike County massacre. Local twelve 124 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: James Pilcher reports on key footprints that were found at 125 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: the scene. Susan Elliott, a shoeprint specialist for the Ohia 126 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: Bureau of Criminal Investigation at the time of the murders, 127 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: declined to be on camera with her testimony, but she 128 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: matched footprints found at the first crime scene with an 129 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: actual shoe style in size. Juror's eyes were glued to 130 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: the latest witness to testify in George Wagner the Fourth's 131 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: murder trial as she opened large pizza boxes inside pieces 132 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: of flooring cut from one of the Pike County crime seats, 133 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: the trailer on Union Hill Road where Chris Rodin Senior 134 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: and Gary Rodin were murdered. She said these impressions that 135 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: have since been enhanced were not in the Crime Labs 136 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 1: shoe database. You may recall from last season the testimony 137 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: of shoeprint expert William Bodsiac during pre trial motions. Bodsiac, 138 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: who worked on the oj Simpson case, stated that investigators 139 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: finally found the model shoe that made the prince at Walmart. 140 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: It was Susan Elliott who made the actual discovery. James Pilcher, 141 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: She's the one who found at all. She was the 142 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: one that newd'll be looking out for the Walmart shoes 143 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: because she remembered, you know, our shoeprin expert found these 144 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: shoes of Walmarts, so we need to be looking for 145 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: anything for Walmar. Here is testimony for Brian Scheiterer had 146 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 1: BCI investigator who provided testimony the same day about how 147 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: they use that information. As a result of learning that 148 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: you were looking for a size eleven shoe that you 149 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: believed belonged to whoever committed these murders, or at least 150 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: one of the individuals, what did you guys do in 151 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: response to that information? It was decided that we would 152 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: contact the Walmarts within a fifty mile radius of Pike 153 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: County and asked for all their records for transactions and 154 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: holding that shoe dated back to January first of twenty sixteen. 155 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: In in addition to getting the records of any transactions, 156 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: did you also get a request and receive video surveillance 157 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: that corresponded with those Yes. As we know from previous episodes, 158 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: this is how the recorded video of Angela buying the 159 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: same model she is was found. Subsequently, they then seized 160 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: a receipt from the purchase. Here's Jeff speaking with Mike 161 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: Allen and your expertise as a lawyer. How big is 162 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: this piece of evidence? It's really big because you've got 163 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: the receipt for purchasing them, they match up in size, 164 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: and then of course she got the bloody footprint in 165 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: one of the trailers. So it's very strong evidence. And 166 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: I think that's something that the jury is going to 167 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: be thinking about. And do you think, you know without 168 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: DNA evidence, this shoeprint is maybe the closest thing we have. 169 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: How much weight can the prosecution put on it? Well, 170 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: I think they can put a lot of weight on it. 171 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: I mean, the odds of it being some kind of 172 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: coincidence are in the millions, So I think they'll put 173 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: a lot of weight on it's it's real strong evidence 174 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: for the state. What's the defense's counter argument to this? 175 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: How do they defend the shoeprint? I guess you would 176 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: have to argue that it's a pretty popular brand of 177 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: shoe at Walmart. You'd have to do your homework and it. 178 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: I don't know any other way to do that, because, 179 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: like I said, it's such strong evidence, you'd have to 180 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: argue that, well, you know, it is what it is. 181 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: But they were in a real tough position on that one. 182 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: I don't know how they're going to do it. You're 183 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 1: just gonna have to argue coincidence, and I don't think 184 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: the jury's going to buy that. Here's forensic death investigator 185 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan. Well, for me, shoe prints till everything. 186 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: The shoe prints are indicative of purpose. They're indicative of 187 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: thought and care being taken when it comes to planning. 188 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: Because from where did the shoe prints originate? Well, they 189 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: originated from a pear shoes that were purchased for the 190 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: sole purpose of, you know, following through with this horrible plan. 191 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: We've already got Angela Wagner actually stating that she purchased 192 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: the shoes and for them to have the utility to 193 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: go out for them to commit these crops. Next, Angel 194 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: Wilson turns to ballistics mister White, where do you work? 195 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: I work at the Bureau of Criminal Investigation also known 196 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: as BCA in London, Ohio. We have been able to 197 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: gather from preliminary motions and prosecution filings that there is 198 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: a connection, they assert between shell casings found at at 199 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: least one of the crime scenes and weapons link back 200 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: to the Wagner family. So we do expect that this 201 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: ballistics expert will prove a very important to this case. 202 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: White is a striking presence on the stand. He wears 203 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: a broad shouldered black three piece suit and sports a 204 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: wide flat beard that ends the midway down his chest. 205 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: When Matt White comes to work in London, Ohio, VCI, 206 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: what does he do every day? Our primary duties involved 207 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: examination of firearms to determine their operability, as well as 208 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: looking at fired ammunition components, be it a fire cartridge 209 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: case or a fire bullet. I can perform microscopic examinations 210 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: to determine if they've been fired in or from a 211 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: particular farm, and if not, I can generate a potential 212 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: list of firms that could have been fired from I 213 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: want to take you back to April two sixteen, April 214 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. At some point, were you asked through a 215 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: dam of candidates that have been collected as part of 216 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: an investigation of an eight person homicide in Pike count Yes, 217 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: I was. And can you tell the jury how were 218 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: you initially brought into this case or asked to assist? 219 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: My supervisors notified us that there was a larger case 220 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: that was coming into laboratory, and I just happened to 221 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: be the person selected to work the case at the time. 222 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: White goes on to testify that he identified two types 223 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: of bullets at Chris Senior's home, thirty caliber bullets from 224 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: a high profiled rifle and forty caliber bullets from an 225 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: unknown firearm. Crime scene too, the home of Frankie Rowden 226 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: and Hannah Hazel Gilly was a different story. Were several 227 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: of the items that you examined from this scene shell 228 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: casings had been recovered by the crime scene unit? Yes 229 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: they were. Yes, this is one fired watching long rifle 230 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: cartridge case. The fact that that cartridge has the name 231 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: long rifle, does that mean that it has to be 232 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: or can only be fired out of a rifle. Now 233 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: certainly not twenty long rifle cartridge is generic. It can 234 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: be fired in a pistol, revolver, a rifle, any fire 235 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: that's designed to actually fire that specific cartridge. Were you 236 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: also asked to again, I didn't. It came from seeing three? Yes, 237 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: I was. Was one of the items that you were 238 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: asked to look at with respect the scene three as 239 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: shell casing. That was our cartridge casing that was recovered 240 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: from under a crib in this residence. Yes, that's correct. 241 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: This is a fire twenty two long rifle cartridge case 242 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: Remickton brand with a rectangular wedge shaped fine pin impressure. 243 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: That item had the same general class characteristics as the 244 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: shell casings that you just testified too from scene two. Yes, 245 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: that's correct, and again, are those consistent with the other 246 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: projectiles recovered? An autopsy of the other victims have seen 247 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: three and the other victims have seen two. Yes, they 248 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: are Stephanie and Jeff. So we have two types of 249 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: bullets found at the scene. We have thirty caliber high 250 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: powered rifle bullets and forty caliber bullets found in Chris 251 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: Senior's home. And we know from Fortner's testimony last week 252 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: that the thirty calibers were sprayed from outside the trailer 253 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: and the forties were founds have gone through the floor 254 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: and into the dirt below the home, so they were 255 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: shot inside. Now here's where it gets confusing, because at 256 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: Frankie and Dana Roden's homes they found twenty two caliber bullets. 257 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: Does that mean that whoever did this, whether it's one 258 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: person or many people, did they do that by switching 259 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: out guns mid murder scene? Or does that mean they 260 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: almost divided and conquered and that different family members were 261 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: using different guns and that they were committing these murders simultaneously. 262 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: They moved on to crime scene for Kenneth Rowden's house, 263 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: if you recall there was only one shot fired. Stay 264 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: divot D two eighty two. You've already opened her up. 265 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: Do you recognize the marketings on that package? Yes, laboratory number, 266 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: item number, and my initials, and we're able to examine 267 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: that item and reach any conclusion with respect to brand 268 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: and caliber associated with that. Yes, I was able to 269 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: conclude this as a fired forty Smith and Wesson cartridge case. 270 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: Hornedy brand is were you asked to make some comparisons 271 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: in this case to determine whether or not certain pieces 272 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: of evidence had been fired by the same weapon at 273 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: each scene. Yes, I was. Were you able to reach 274 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: a conclusion to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty as 275 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: to whether or not the forty caliber shell casing a 276 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: scene one was fired from the same firearm that fired 277 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: the forty caliber shell casing the scene forty. Yes, Based 278 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: on my microscopic comparison examining the two fired forty Smith 279 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: and Weston Cartridge cases, I was able to conclude the 280 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: two forty Smith and Weston Cartridge cases had been fired 281 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: in the same firearm. Media outlets jumped on the breaking news. Today, 282 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: prosecutors turned to the bullets used in all eight murders. 283 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: The casings included a forty caliber shell found on Chris 284 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: Senior's kitchen floor. He also showed the bullets retrieve from 285 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: the victim's bodies. His testimony came after another BCI agent 286 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: walked through the crime scene where police found Chris Senior's brother, 287 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: Kenneth Rowden, shot in his bed. Agents also found a 288 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: forty caliber shell in his bed. We're going to take 289 00:18:54,480 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 1: a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh, I'm 290 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. 291 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 292 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 293 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 294 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 295 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He choked into the point she went unconscious. 296 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 297 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 298 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 299 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 300 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 301 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 302 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 303 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 304 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 305 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts from iHeart Podcasts. Whitney hell is 306 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted 307 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,239 Speaker 1: a situation like this. I just thought it was just 308 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: a really terrible, immoral thing, a line they won't cross. 309 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: I was stunned, and I just said, no, we're killing people. 310 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: You may never have to face that decision when you 311 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: find yourself at that line. Bouncin aren't ricin and somebody 312 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth, 313 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: like this is evil and the only person who can 314 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to 315 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. 316 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 1: If you are disloyal men, things are going to happen 317 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: to speak out disgrace to our gun. Pevil Pay should 318 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: be prosecuted when power corrupts, conscience is the last line 319 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on 320 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 321 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and 322 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my 323 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 1: award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always 324 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: time to touch incredible guests about important things. People like 325 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: me have been screaming for years. We've got to watch 326 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what they're 327 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: doing is evil. They will take things away and I 328 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: can only hope that Dobbs is that, like Pearl Harbor moment, girl, 329 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: you and I both know what it took to just 330 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: get through the day in New York City and get 331 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: home in one piece. And so the fact that we're 332 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, 333 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. 334 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, 335 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking 336 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Laverne 337 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 338 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. Hi. 339 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: This is Paris Hilton. Some of the best times of 340 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: my life have been spent inside of nightclubs, singing, dancing 341 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: and being free to truly be myself. And now I'm 342 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 1: the executive producer of a new show, the History of 343 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: the World's Greatest Nightclubs. I wanted a show that represented freedom, 344 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: joy and hope, and there is no one better to 345 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: host than someone who has inspired me for so many 346 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: years with her musical talent. I'm alternate and I've been 347 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: in the music industry for three decades. I'm a singer, 348 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: songwriter and musician, and now I'm inviting you to join 349 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: me on this global nightclub journey. We'll dive into the 350 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: origins of genres that broke the industry and uncover the 351 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: stories of legendary DJs, all through the eyes of the 352 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: people who partied at the height of club culture. Listen 353 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: to the history of the world's greatest nightclubs on the 354 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 355 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: The next day, the prosecution picks up once again with 356 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: testimony from Matthew White. Andrew Wilson is intent on further 357 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: closing the loop on the physical ballistic evidence. In addition 358 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: to that information that you passed onto your investigators, do 359 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: you do further work or further analysis to try to 360 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: determine what kind of twenty two or what kind of 361 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: forty was involved in these homicides? Yes. Oftentimes, if I'm 362 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: encountered evidence and there's no firearms submitted, I can look 363 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: at certain features of the fire cartridge cases or the 364 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: fired bullets to give a possible list of firearms that 365 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: could have fired them. To aid investigators and what they 366 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: should be looking for. In the case of the twenty two, 367 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: he pinpoints the probable gun used. I was able to 368 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: examine other examples of test fires taken with Walter cold 369 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: nineteen eleven twenty two pistols. I was able to physically 370 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: examine a couple different of the specific guns. I was 371 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: able to disassemble them, look at them, further, examine the 372 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: firing pin itself, take additional test fires for comparison. In 373 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: addition to that, I corresponded with a design engineer at 374 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 1: Walter in Germany about the shape the orientation of the 375 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: firing pin impression. He was able to look at some 376 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: stock examples at the factory of farms that they were producing, 377 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: and he agreed and concurred that the shape of the 378 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: firing pin impression and the orientation of it was consistent 379 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: with the farms that they produced the Walter nineteen eleven 380 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: twenty two pistols. In the case of the forty caliber, 381 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: he pulls up an enlargement of the bullet casing, pointing 382 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: out marks around the base of it. You can see 383 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: the fine pain impression itself. It's elliptical, it is not 384 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: circular in shape. Those two features are very common with 385 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: glock firearms. So based on those observations, again, did you 386 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: begin to feel that a block firearm or a forty 387 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: Cali block was responsible for shooting the showcasings recover from 388 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: seeing a one in zeen four. Yes, the lock is 389 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: by far the most common firearm encountered that has those 390 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: two characteristics. Next, the prosecution asks a key question of light. 391 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: But at that time, when you were doing your initial 392 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: work in this case, did you have a firearm that 393 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: had been inflected as evidence to compare of from the 394 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: scene or from a suspect. No, I did not to 395 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: understand the recovery of the Wagner's firearms. Brian Scheiderer is 396 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: asked to step back and give the jury a big 397 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: picture on how they began their investigation. Remember, at the time, 398 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: BCI did not yet know the Wagners were involved. Back 399 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: to that very first day, you responded to the Sheriff's office, 400 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: you interviewed some people. Then what happened? Then what did 401 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: you do? Things were still very confusing at that time. 402 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: There's a lot of information coming in as you can expect, 403 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: the media was on scene at the time, so this 404 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: had went statewide. As well as national So eventually we 405 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: went back to the piked in the police department and 406 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: we tried to organize things like we knew this was 407 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: going to be in. We're going to be in for 408 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: the long haul on this. We're trying to say, here's 409 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: what we had at the crime scenes, here's what the 410 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: families told us, and here's tips that are coming in. 411 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: That's all happening extremely fast, like it's over well, I mean, 412 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: it overloads you, it's coming in so fast. We also 413 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: established a tip system because we had so many tips 414 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: coming in. Ultimately, I believe we had eleven hundred and 415 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: forty three tips that came in through the end of 416 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: the investigation to the arrest, and all eleven hundred and 417 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: forty three of those tips were investigated and cleared. And 418 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: so how was that tip system established. They would mark 419 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: the tip, it would get assigned to an agent, and 420 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: the agent would go out investigate the tip and respond 421 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: back and report his or her findings. At some point, 422 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,959 Speaker 1: they received a tip about the Wagner's collection of firearms. 423 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: Here's Jeff speaking with my Gallen. Law enforcement have to 424 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: verify who sent the tip or does it not matter 425 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: if it checks out you mean, when the tip comes in, 426 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: try to figure out who it is. Yeah, Like, if 427 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: they got a tip that, oh, you should search this 428 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: property because there might be weapons there. If that tip 429 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: checks out, does it matter who called it in? In theory, 430 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: wouldn't they want to track that person down because that's 431 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: a good witness or they don't care. They probably would 432 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 1: have to have more than that. You know, they get 433 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: a tip like that, they'd have to develop it somewhat, 434 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, just some Tom Dick or Harry calling and saying, Hey, 435 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: you know, I think there's a bunch of evidence and 436 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: weapons down there at Joe Jones's house. The cops will 437 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: have to have more than that. You just use the 438 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 1: term develop the tip. I've never heard that. What does 439 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: that mean? You know, perhaps try to find out whatever 440 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: this witness said, Maybe go to the place, check it out, 441 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: maybe talked to other people. I just think that would 442 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: be very weak to go to a judge and ask 443 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: for a search warrant just based on a completely anonymous 444 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: tip that they would have to bolster that somehow it 445 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: was enough to get warrants to search the Wagner's property. 446 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: We also talked about you've seeking court orders for various 447 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: phone records and Facebook records and any other records are correct, 448 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: and can you tell us kind of at what point 449 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: did that start to happen and what kinds of information 450 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: were you receiving that led you to turn your attention 451 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: to them. It takes a long time to examine those things, 452 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: you know, many of those files are extremely large, several 453 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: thousand pages. It is these electronic records that lead BCI 454 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: to Jake Wagner via social media posts about custody of 455 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: his and Hannime Rodin's young child. When we first made 456 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: contact with Jake Wagner, he had indicated that everything was okay, 457 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: that he had a good relationship with Hannah, and there 458 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: was no issues involving their child that they shared together. 459 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: So that was a little suspicious moranted a little further investigation, obviously, 460 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: But we were also conducting an interviews of friends and 461 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: family who were reporting a similar situation. So you kind 462 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: of have conflicting stories, right. You have one side that's 463 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: saying everything's okay, and then you have records and family 464 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: members and friends that are saying that it's not true. 465 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: So that kind of, you know, you need to investigate that. 466 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: That's important that's a lead, that's that's something that needs 467 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: to be ran down, and so that's what we started 468 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: to do. Did you also look at Jake's phone and 469 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: did you find anything of interest on that phone? Yes? 470 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: And can you tell us? And again, these were expedited 471 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: reviews of these records. It wasn't like we had days 472 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: to go through these. We literally downloaded these phones and 473 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: started going through quickly. But one of the most interesting 474 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,479 Speaker 1: things that we found on Jake's phone at that time 475 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: was under the note section, and it was a list 476 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: of guns owned by the Wagoners or purported to be. 477 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: So basically there's a list with each Wagner's name and 478 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: then a list of guns underneath each of those names. 479 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: At this point, the defense objects and everyone approaches Judge 480 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: Daring upon request, they consult briefly and during rules testimony 481 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: can continue, your honor, Agent Scheider. I'm going to show 482 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: you what is going to be marked as students exam 483 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: at H two. Okay, and can you tell us first 484 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: of all, Agent Scheider, what are we looking at? This 485 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: was again, this is a an extraction report or a 486 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: snippet of an extraction report related to Jake's iPhone that 487 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: we took of May of seventeen, and this was found 488 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: in the notes section of the phone, and it is 489 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: a list of firearms and associated Wagner names. Go through 490 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: those and tell us which guns are listed belonging and 491 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: belonging to and what date was that list created pursuing 492 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: to the reports I'm having Trump to see you that 493 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: February eleventh, twenty fifteen. Okay, thank you, and go ahead 494 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: and tell us what guns are listed there? Starting at 495 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: the top, the list starts with George's Indicadian possession and 496 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: it says Glock seventeen nine millimeter, Baretta ninety six forty caliber, 497 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: Taurus Revolver three fifty seven, Remington five fourteen twenty two, 498 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: ruger M seventy seven two seventy, ruger M seventy seven 499 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: twenty two, Hornet Remington Woodmaster thirty six, ruger M seventy 500 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: seven twenty two, CZ twenty two and SKS seven point 501 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: six two by thirty nine. And who else is listed 502 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: on that list? Moms, Dad's and Jake's. Okay, that is 503 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: at the extent of the list. It was extracted from 504 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: the phone belonging to Jake Wagner. Yes, but you seized 505 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: for tuning to the search for it. Yes, let's stop 506 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: here for another break. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm 507 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. Back in the 508 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated 509 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, 510 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He 511 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,959 Speaker 1: was perfect on paper. But he wasn't. He really wasn't, 512 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: he shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could 513 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: lie about anything, but only takes the one time when 514 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know 515 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for 516 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll 517 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: be honest with your fis song him right now. I'd 518 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: spit on him. I would call him and I would say, 519 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. I will always hound 520 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: you and haunt you. You can listen to the Girlfriends 521 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get 522 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: your podcasts from iHeart podcast. What the hell is going 523 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: on here? Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted a 524 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: situation like this. I just thought it was just a 525 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: really terrible, immoral thing a line they won't cross. I 526 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: was stunned and I just said, no, we're killing people. 527 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 1: You may never have to face that decision when you 528 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 1: find yourself at that line. Thou its ricin ars ricin, 529 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: and somebody needs to just for once give everybody the 530 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: whole truth. I'm like, this is evil and the only 531 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: person who can sound the alarm is you. I wasn't 532 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: just going to sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These 533 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: are the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal, things are going 534 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: to happen to this week out disgrace through our gun. 535 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: Peovil Pay should be prosecuted. When power corrupts, conscience is 536 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to 537 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 1: the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 538 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, 539 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember 540 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's 541 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: always time to touch incredible guests about important things. People 542 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: like me have been screaming for years. We've got to 543 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: watch the Supreme Court what they're doing. Is wrong. What 544 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: they're doing is evil. They will take things away, and 545 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: I can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl 546 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: Harbor moment, girl, you and I both know what it 547 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: took to just get through the day in New York 548 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: City and get home in one piece. And so the 549 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what 550 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,399 Speaker 1: I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting 551 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you 552 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable is 553 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. 554 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: Listen to the Laverne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, 555 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure 556 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: to subscribe and share everybody. We know there are a 557 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: ton of podcasts out there. Well, we have one we 558 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: would love for you to check out. It is called 559 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,280 Speaker 1: The pen Pals Podcast with Daniel Van Kirk and Rory Scobel. 560 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: We are both stand up comedians where actors were writers, 561 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: but now most of all, we are your pen pals. 562 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: Every single episode we get two letters that we read 563 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: from our listeners, our new pen pals. It can be 564 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: about anything going on in their life. And sometimes we're 565 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: also joined by guests like Will Ferrell. I'm gonna bring 566 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:32,479 Speaker 1: you up in front of the group and I'm gonna 567 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: punch you as hard as I can in the stomach. 568 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: Rose burn Is West Hollywood, keep it clean, Joppato, is 569 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: that considered? Colona Brian, I'm just showing you that my 570 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,399 Speaker 1: mind is quick, if not that funny. And Mandy Moore, 571 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: we're all crossing the line together. Listen to the pen 572 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: Pals podcast on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on 573 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, 574 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: and sirely your new pen Pals Daniel van Kirk and 575 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: Rory Scobell. Here's Jeff speaking with Mike Gallen. He pretty 576 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: much figured out what the firearms were through that, obviously 577 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: the help of the corner. The what the rounds showed, 578 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: what kind of weapon they were fired from. And you know, 579 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: they got a real break on Jake's phone when they 580 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: got the search warrant for that and found on the 581 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: notes portion just about every gun that the family had 582 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,399 Speaker 1: and it matched up again. That was just good old 583 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: fashioned police work, not a lot of technology in that. 584 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: What do you make of Jake Wagner writing all this 585 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: stuff down? Stupid? It was just stupid. Why would you 586 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: do that? You know? In many ways, I think he 587 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: covered his tracks, or at least tried to cover his 588 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: tracks pretty well, but it's just stupid. I guess he 589 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: just wanted to keep track of what everybody had, and 590 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: my goodness, you talk about an arsenal. They had just 591 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: about any kind of weapon you can think of. Learning 592 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: a lot of guns, though, does not necessarily make you 593 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: guilty of a murder. It definitely does not make you 594 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 1: guilty of murder. But it's a piece of the puzzle, 595 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: especially when two of the weapons that he had on 596 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: that list were the type of weapons that were used 597 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 1: to commit these murders. When you can tie a weapon 598 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: or weapons, you know, to a homicide, that's big. I mean, 599 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: it's good evidence. The jury wants to hear that, so 600 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: it's strong evidence. More on that next time. We're going 601 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 1: to take a short break. The Pipes and Massacre returns 602 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: with all new episodes starting Wednesday, January fourth, with Angela 603 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,280 Speaker 1: and Jake Wagner taking the stand. There's much more to uncover, 604 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: and the biggest bombshells are yet to come. Don't defense ready? Yes, 605 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: you wish to call a witness, that is fine, then 606 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: we called George Wagger The four. For more information on 607 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at 608 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Masker is produced by 609 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Scott de Graw, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel 610 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by 611 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 1: Jeff Tua. Music by Jared Aston. The Piked and Masker 612 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more 613 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 614 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,720 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 615 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The 616 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 1: Girl Friends. It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and 617 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 1: it is time to find a husband. There were four 618 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: Jewish doctors who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One 619 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: of them was the spot Barrenmout. On paper, he was perfect, 620 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: but in reality, this guy's a welcome. He shouted to 621 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: the point she went unconscious. I would call him and 622 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: I would say, I know you killed my Sister. You 623 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 1: can listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 624 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Free 625 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 1: and I'm Rthy. We have spent the last twenty years 626 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 1: building and working at some of the largest companies in 627 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: the world. We worked with some remarkable people, Rob mclenny. 628 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 1: When I see the people of Wrexham, I grew up 629 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: exactly like them. Check out the Art and Tried ARM Show. 630 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,760 Speaker 1: That is a R D HI and s R I 631 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: R A M Show. Listen to the Art Instrie Arm 632 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 1: Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 633 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: get your podcast I'm will daily. For years have been 634 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: on the road, playing shows and seeing America through live music. 635 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: This summer, I'll hit the stage of season two of 636 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 1: Sound of Our Town ten cities, twelve episodes every other Thursday, 637 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: we explore the live music venues and culture of a 638 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: new American city. With each new episode, our tour continues 639 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: into the kind of venues you want to get to 640 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 1: when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver or Seattle. Listen 641 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 642 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 1: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the 643 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 1: story of a man who's fascinated me. His name was 644 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,720 Speaker 1: Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's a name you don't forget. 645 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: He was a visionary who built a fortune as a 646 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: black man during Jim Crow during the Depression, but today 647 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: not many people know about him. The race sort of 648 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: wiped out, and I wonder if this was done intentionally. 649 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 650 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:50,839 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.