WEBVTT - Searching For Humanity 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.840 Dear Governor is a production of I Heart Media and 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:06.720 three Months Media. If you are moved by Jarvis Masters 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:09.320 and his thirty years struggle on San Quentin's death throw, 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.760 and you'd like to support his cause, please consider signing 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.840 a petition on his behalf. Visit Free Jarvis dot org 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.160 slash podcast to sign your name to an open letter 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:26.120 to California Governor Gavin Newsom, Dear Governor Newsom, Dear Mr 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:31.640 Governor Newsom. This is an open letter to Governor Gavin Newsom, 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:43.239 Dear Governor Newsom. Public. Craig Haney is a social psychologist 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.320 and a professor at the University of California, Santa Cruz. 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:48.760 Renowned for his work on the front lines of the 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:53.400 criminal justice system. His groundbreaking research on capital punishment and 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.960 the psychological impact of imprisonment and isolation lends great credence 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:01.080 to the fact that proactive prevent mention is far more 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:05.679 effective than reactive punishment when it comes to reducing criminal behavior. 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.480 In what capacity did you work on Jarvis Master's trial 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:13.120 back in the late eighties. In Jarvis case, I was 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:17.280 in a position that I'm often in capital cases, which 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.120 is I'm the person whose job it is to try 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:24.480 to tell the client's life story. It's come to be 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.720 called a social historian in those days. I'm not sure 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:32.880 whether that term was around. I don't do clinical assessments. 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.679 I don't I don't diagnose people. I'd rather try to 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:42.319 understand their biographical history as a way of understanding the 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.160 path or the course of their life, to put it 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.200 in context for the drawers, so the drawers can understand 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:55.880 the various experiences and events and in many instances, traumas 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:58.880 that affected a capital defendant in the course of his 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.760 or her life, so that they can appreciate it, hopefully 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:07.760 feel some compassion, gained, some understanding or insight that they 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.160 otherwise wouldn't have without that story being told in as 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:15.560 much detail as possible. I asked Jarvis about his early 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.480 memories of Professor Haney. He was one of those people 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.560 that initially I thought would not get it. You know. 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:25.440 He was one of those people that I said earlier, 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:29.480 who were hired to come here and describe my life story, 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.400 this professor with all these plaques on the wall, and 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.600 you know, I was not who I am today. So 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.600 and I didn't like people with plaques on their wall 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:46.240 because of my childhood experience. You know, these social workers, 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.560 and they really missed me up. But he did get it. 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.520 And that's what surprised me about him. He did get it. 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:57.320 You know. He wasn't writing reports to you know, show 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:03.760 his expertise. He was writing his reports in giving testimony 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:08.680 to what she believed was the truth about what was 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:13.720 going on in my life. M hmm. And of course, 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:17.040 you know, I checked and see every word he ever 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:21.600 wrote about me, you know, and as I kept reading things, 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:27.280 you know, I was amazed at this white man can 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:32.200 talk about things that I never thought he had the 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:37.560 experience to know about. But he did. He did. My 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:42.119 conversation with Professor Haney continues, when you first met Jarvis, 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.080 how long did it take for you to garner a 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:50.640 clear picture of the man himself and his story? Well, 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.960 his story was something that took me a very long 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:59.960 time to fully grasp or understand, because it required me 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.680 not just to spend a lot of time with Jarvis, 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.000 which I did do, and which which I which I 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.240 benefited from greatly and and and frankly very much enjoyed. 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:13.120 I I guy got to know him well, although not 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:14.920 right away. And I'll get to that in a second 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.440 part of the task of understanding the course of someone's 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.240 life is certainly to talk with them as much as 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.400 you can and open them up as much as possible 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.279 about their life, but also to talk to as many 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.479 other people as possible about them. So I traveled to 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.960 Los Angeles a number of times. I met his family, 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.080 I spent a lot of time with him. I went 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:43.240 into the neighborhoods where he grew up. We talked to teachers, neighbors, 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.880 people who knew him, really to try to develop an 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.800 understanding of what his life had been as he was 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.720 growing up, and then also as he had increasing contacts 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.280 with the criminal justice system, um what those places were like, 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.359 what they were like for him. I had already known 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.920 a fair amount about the California prison system. Is part 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:08.560 of part of how I got into doing this kind 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:12.599 of work was that I uh, while I was still 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:16.520 a graduate student at Stanford, I was one of the 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:21.800 researchers in the Stanford Prison Experiment, and as a young student, 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:27.880 that experience really re oriented my entire professional life. So 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:32.080 I began to study the prisons, real prisons, not simulated prisons, 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.320 while I was still in graduate school, and so by 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.919 the time I graduated from Stanford with with a PhD, 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:41.359 and then I went to law school. I had a 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:45.040 lot of familiarity with the California prison system. I studied it. 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:50.320 I'd worked on cases already, some constitutional challenges to conditions 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.960 the confinement in the California prison system, and so I 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:58.160 had expertise in how people are shaped and affected by 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.800 contact with the criminal justice system. Many people who end 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.560 up in death penalty trials have been in the system 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:10.640 earlier times in their life, and they've been affected and 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:16.400 in some sense damaged by that system. Contrary to public opinion, 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.520 the prison system does not, and has not for decades, 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:24.919 rehabilitated people. It's not been devoted to that, sadly, but 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.960 it does do other things to them, and it can 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:32.520 make whatever problems they entered the system with worse. And 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:34.960 in any event, whether they do that or not, whether 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.200 those environments do it or not, they're very difficult places 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.880 in which to live. And I think in cases where 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:48.920 a death penalty client has had problems in prison or jail, 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.479 and certainly in any case where crime was committed in 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.120 a prison or jail the crime for which they are 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:58.039 on trial, it's important to be able to explain to 0:06:58.080 --> 0:06:59.760 the joy what it's like to live in that kind 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.000 of an environment, what it does to you, what kind 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.960 of survival strategies you have to adopt, and how people 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:10.480 in prison find themselves doing things in prison that they 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.320 would not otherwise do under any other circumstances because of 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.320 the contingencies that they faced on a on a daily basis. 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.480 So for me in Jarvis's case, certainly, but in other 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.400 cases as well, that ends up being part of the 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.400 life story. A lot of times our clients lives are 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:33.040 lived partly in families and neighborhoods, but partly also in 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.160 different parts of the criminal justice system, and so that 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.880 part of the story was important for me to tell. 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:43.840 In jo Barvis's case, also the cradle to death throw 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:50.000 pipeline exactly exactly his case was a perfect example of that. 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:53.200 And Jarvis speaks to the fact that back in the 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:57.559 eighties as opposed to now, that the prison San Quentin 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.680 was such a such a healthscape back and much more 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.160 violent than it is now, and and that kind of 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:08.880 did that play into your evaluation of him? It did. 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.720 I had been involved in lawsuits about conditions of confinement 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.920 in San Quentin, about the over crowding in San Quentin, 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.600 the use of what in those days were called lock 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:24.440 up units or UH management control units. In those days, 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.760 san Quentin had an enormous one. There was a tremendous 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.800 amount of violence. I've been in the adjustment center many times, 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.720 and I mean San Quentin today, with the exception of 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:37.439 death Row, there's no relationship to San Quentin. In those days. 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:42.360 It was a justifiably notorious maximum security prison in the 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:47.960 California system did and fulsome were as notorious as any 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.800 prisons in the United States at the time. And so 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.160 part of my job was to try to explain that 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:58.680 to Jarvis's jury and he he of course, helped me 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.599 do that. But you me earlier. How quickly did I 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.360 come to know him? And and and I understand him? 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:10.520 And it was eventually I got to know him very well, 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.080 and I felt very close to him, and I think 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.520 we had a good relationship and good report. But it 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:20.680 didn't start off that way. Uh. Jarvis, in the initial 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.640 stages of my involvement in the case, did not want 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:29.600 anything to do with psychologists at all. And Michael Satris, 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:32.520 his attorney, had sent us, Uh, how should I put it, 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:37.240 a conventional psychologist into evaluate Jarvis before I went to 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.280 see him, and I don't even remember who it was 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.720 he went in to see him, but that person did 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:46.319 a very kind of conventional work up, and it was 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:49.280 a kind of superficial analysis of who Jarvis was. He 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.280 looked at his record, he made a lot of assumptions 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:56.720 of that record meant about Jarvis as a person. He 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:02.240 reached a number of i questionable conclusions about Jarvis as 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:05.160 a person. It was obvious that he didn't that he 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:10.080 didn't understand at all who job Jarvis was was obviously 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:12.439 even to me and I hadn't yet met Jarvis. So 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.000 Michael gave me a copy of this report before I 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:17.640 went to see Jervis, and I read it and I 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.360 said to him, Michael, you want me to follow this. 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:22.160 I mean, this is gonna this is gonna be a 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.760 very difficult second act, because you know, he's not gonna 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.160 be happy to see another person who's coming in with 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.720 the label of psychologists. And Michael said, well, you just, 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:33.840 you know, explain to him that you're different, you know, 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.560 you're a different kind of psychologist. And I said, well, yeah, 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.080 of course, but it's gonna be it's gonna be awkward 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.160 in the beginning anyway, marched over to San Quentin and 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.240 went went in to see Jarvis, and Jarvis came out 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.840 and sat down across from me with a scowl on 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:55.920 his face and sized me up and and and I'm 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.240 and I launched into my I'm um, this is the 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.520 kind of psycholog just I am. I'm not here to 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:03.880 diagnose you. I'm not here to put you in a 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.599 cubby hole. I want to understand you. I want to 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:08.960 get to know you. And as I was talking to him, 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.920 as I had in the middle of my spiel about 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.200 how he should talk to me because I was different 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:20.720 from this other person, he very methodically began to tear 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:26.319 that report little pieces, and he made a very neat, 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.840 fairly good sized little pile of these little pieces of 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:34.240 that report. And then he pushed the pile across the 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.600 table to me until it was sitting in front of me. 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.840 And I'm still not quite finished with my explanation to 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:44.800 him about why I'm different from these other folks. And 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:48.000 he looked at me and he said, stop stop. That 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.120 that he pointed to the pile is what I think 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:57.000 of you people. And that's how our relationship began. So 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:00.560 it was. Yeah, it's one of a more dramatic opening 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:05.880 moments in my relationship with the client. And I laughed. 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.680 I started laughing, and I said, I just want to 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:15.079 tell you that was the best. I said, I've got 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.840 a lot of clients up to this point, but that right, 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.640 that move right there was the best one I've ever seen. 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:23.760 We both started laughing, I mean, you know, and I said, 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:26.040 I don't blame you. If somebody had written that about me, 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.680 I would rip it up like that too. Yeah, that's 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:30.959 not what I'm gonna do. So I just pushed the 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.160 stuff off and said, hey, well, I said, let's start 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.760 from scratch. Okay, it's not going to end with that. 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.520 It's going to end with something different. And I want 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.800 to get to know you the way this person didn't. 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:45.920 Jarvis Masters on his impression of Professor Craig Haney, he 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:51.000 did say, so, I don't think you might here, but 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:55.480 you knew I was in it. Yeah, you know, And 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.160 you know, when someone's in trouble like I was, you 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.480 look for someone to distrust, used to be too in 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:03.640 their own way, not in my way, but in their 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:07.400 own way, recognized me being in and he did, you know, 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:13.080 he did and he wrote in a way that he 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.040 was describing an innocent person. So he became, you know, 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.559 my champion, you know, someone who I knew and understood 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.079 to know the truth. And I gave him major props 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.679 for that, major props. You know, did you sit with 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:31.880 him a lot? Did you tell him your story from 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.839 your point of view? Yes, what he did was it 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.720 was stack the stuff that he had to investigate and 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.920 read to define who I was to a court room, 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:46.520 to a jury. And I did trust him when he 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.200 did take you know, when he did testify. But what 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.280 he did was he did he took all that chunk 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.560 and he made me a human being. He made me 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.839 out of a human being that I never had. That. 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:08.560 Oh that that that person who can do that on 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:14.240 their own terms? You know, uh what everything make? You know, 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.560 most people, you know, they would come to like me 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.400 because of who I was and blah blah blah. But 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.240 for someone to read all that junk, you know, in 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.000 a lot of the junkless truth. You know, my mother 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:30.920 was this if my father was that he cave such 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:37.360 a a a a narrative to that. That really really 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.840 gave me the idea that I know the truth that 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:47.960 I can trust this man up next. With over four 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:51.240 decades devoted to the study and enhancement of the criminal 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:55.400 justice system, having worked tirelessly for the defense of countless 0:14:55.480 --> 0:15:01.000 imprisoned clients, Professor Craig Haney explains why Jarvis case continues 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:17.600 to haunt him to this day. Since the nineteen seventies, 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.640 social psychologist Craig Haney has worked on cases of countless 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.080 criminal defendants, constructing the fullness of their life stories in 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.760 order to provide juries with more than just a simple 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:32.360 snapshot into the violence of their alleged crimes. I asked 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:36.320 him why, after thirty years, Jarvis Master's case continues to 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:40.800 haunt him to this day. It haunts me because you know, 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.920 I've worked on many of these cases over the years. 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.280 I've worked on many of them before Jarvis this case, 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.760 and I've worked on many many of them since then. 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:55.640 And you know, in some cases, no matter what you do, 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.760 the case is overwhelming, and for various reasons, you can't 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.920 come the amount of aggravation that's been presented, and you 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.960 can't quite get through to the jury about the humanity 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:12.760 of the defendant and how and why the things that 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.440 happened to him in his life changed and affected him 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.320 in ways that helped to account for the things that 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.840 he did, events and experiences, none of none of which 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:28.160 he chose, but which happened to him, and which he 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:32.400 reacted to and and reacted to in understandable ways, maybe 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.640 ways that you or I or the jury might not 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.720 have reacted to, but nonetheless that are understandable. You can 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:43.160 understand why a person in his position and the defendant's 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:45.480 position would act the way he did, not just in 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.160 the crime for which trial, but in other things that 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.320 they've done in their life. And I really thought that 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.040 in Jarvis's case, there was a really a compelling story 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.480 that needed to be told, and that that if your 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:01.680 jury heard that story, that they that they would understand 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.600 his life in the same way that I did, and 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.879 and show compassion and reach her life rather than a 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.760 death verdict. We you know, we faced a number of 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:15.200 obstacles in the case. There was I thought an extraordinarily 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:20.960 aggressive prosecutor who I frankly thought did things that bordered 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:26.119 on unethical, threatened at one point in the case to 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.600 arrest me because she said I was practicing psychology without 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.800 a license, and which was a bizarre So the first 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.720 time I've ever heard this, and she sprung with saw 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:39.440 me when I was on the witness stand in front 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:41.399 of the judge and so on, not in front of 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:43.960 the jury, but told the judge that she felt duty 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.480 bound to form the court that if I testified the 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.600 way she thought I was going to testify, that she 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.320 was prepared to arrest me, and then I should get 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.320 legal counsel um because I was going to be in 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:58.560 custody by the end of the day. In Michael Statris's 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.800 closing statements, he comes to your defense in that regard 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:06.600 that that you your experiences above and beyond what is necessary. Yeah. 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:08.760 So it was the first time I had ever heard, 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:13.000 as I recall, and so it was a little unsettling. 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:14.680 But she, you know, she should have pulled it out 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:18.000 of her hat, and knowing, I think, in her heart 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.560 of hearts, knowing full well that she could not arrest 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.160 me for this, and I was not violating the law. 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:27.399 It professors don't have a license anymore than a police 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.400 officer needs a license to make observations about human behavior. 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.480 Was that you know you have wasn't providing treatment for jarvis. 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.879 I wasn't providing a diagnosis. I wasn't doing anything that 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:42.359 was beyond my area of even by that point fairly 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.520 significant expertise. But that was the kind of that was 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:47.920 that that's the tenor of that case. I mean that 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.159 just that kind of trick for example, And you know, 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.600 I think it unsettled the judge. Judge Sabbath didn't really 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:56.639 know what to do with that. Shavisly wasn't gonna let 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.879 me be arrested, but she she wasn't sure what this 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.760 was all about, and so she, you know, frankly handicapped 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:07.439 my testimony. Um, she she put limits on what it 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:10.760 was I was allowed to say, limits that I never 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:14.400 that I had not been subjected to before and that 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.440 I frankly have never been subjected to since. And and 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.480 you know, just really overreached, I thought, in a I 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:27.240 thought ethically questionable way. And so we were we couldn't 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:30.399 tell the story the way we wanted, and I think 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:34.399 it was it haunts me because of the outcome, of course, 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.560 because of the kind of person that I knew that 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.200 I had come to know Jarvis. To be explain that 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.000 person that you came to know. Even in those days, 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:48.399 there was a stability and a solid center to to 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.439 Jarvis Masters the sheer amount of trauma to which he 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:56.360 was exposed both outside and inside the prison system. Trauma 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.280 that he experienced even before he got to prison, certainly, 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:04.040 trauma that he experienced once inside was profound. And most 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:08.040 people who have been subjected to that manifest kind of 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:14.080 inner instability around it is perfectly understandable. It's the consequence 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:18.399 of trauma. Jarvis had had struggled really and managed to 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:23.679 make coherence out of his life and out of his self. 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.240 You know, in a way that that was just extraordinarily impressive, 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:36.160 and he was even in those days and obviously very unusual, 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.760 impressive in terms of how he carried himself, Impressive in 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.800 terms of how he dealt with the things that were 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:47.480 happening to him. There was a kind of inner balance 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.679 and spicism to just a kind of a sense of 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:56.080 character from him, and had by the end of that case, 0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:00.359 a lot of genuine personal affection for him, you know, 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:03.320 one human being to another, not just as a as 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.800 a client in a case I mean obviously formed relationships 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:10.080 with all your clients, but in his case, I mean, 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:13.080 knowing what he had been through in his life, I mean, 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.919 it's my job to understand those things, and to study 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.400 it really and then to be able to see him 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:22.320 act with such dignity and equanimity in our day to 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:26.000 day interactions, and watching how he dealt with the way that, 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.080 you know, the things that were happening in the case 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.680 and the gyrations of the prosecutor and so on. I 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:33.920 left it with a lot of the case, with a 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:37.280 lot of respect for him, and was devastated when when 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:40.880 when the Jewelry returned to death verd and was equally 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:45.240 devastated when Judge Sabbat refused to set it aside um, 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:48.440 which I don't you know, I didn't know Beverly Sabbath. 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.879 She you know, she had a decent reputation as a judge. 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:57.600 She had acted I thought, responsibly in the case that 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:00.399 had been brought about conditions at San Quentins. She was 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:05.400 not naive about about that environment. And I really did 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.240 think that she would see as I did, the joyous 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:12.280 Verdick as a mistake and set it aside. And you know, 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:15.960 I wrote a letter to her, you know, before the 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:18.760 actual final sentencing, to try to persuade her, but she 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.520 um she was unmovable or unmoved. I don't know if 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:24.480 she was unmovable. But she was unmoved in this case, 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:26.520 and I don't to this day, I don't know why. 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:32.439 And that was the second really profoundly disappointing outcome in 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:34.520 the case. I mean, the first one was the joy verdict, 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.439 and then the second one was Judge Sabbath's unwillingness to 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.160 overturn that verdict, which I thought was clearly wrong. When 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:44.480 the jury came back with the verdict, did you have 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:48.879 any inclination that it would be death? I was feeling positive, 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:53.360 guardedly positive, because I thought that even though we had 0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:56.920 been handicapped in terms of what we were able to present, 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.840 that we had presented enough that that that the story 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:05.520 we had presented was compelling enough that the jury would 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:10.960 appreciate Jarvis's life and they would weigh it decisively in 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.600 the balance. So I was guardedly optimistic. I mean, I 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:18.199 you know, I certainly knew how hard the prosecutor was 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:21.240 pressing for death and the lens to what she went 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:25.760 in order to achieve that verdict, But I thought, nonetheless, 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:28.840 we had done enough. I hoped anyway, that we had 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:32.679 done enough. And then, as I said, I hoped, after 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:36.080 the jury's verdict that we that the judge saw what 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:39.119 what we what we saw and what we knew about Jarvis, 0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:42.040 she saw enough of it to know that the jury 0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:46.159 had made a mistake. I was very hopeful, you know, again, 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.600 maybe naively so, but I was hopeful that she would 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:52.000 do the right thing, and was in I was in 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:57.000 the courtroom that attended the sentence and hearing, hoping that 0:23:57.080 --> 0:23:59.439 she would rule from the bench that she looked at 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:01.160 the facts of the case. She was president, of course 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:05.520 for the entire trial, and that she considered all the evidence, 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:08.360 who decided that that life was the appropriate sense. Then, 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:22.280 of course she didn't do that. Do You have a 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:25.919 new book that's out this year called Criminality in Context 0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:31.560 Psychological Foundations of Criminal Justice Reform and analyzes forty years 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.160 of research um into the root causes of criminal behavior. 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:39.520 You make the argument that meaningful criminal justice reform depends 0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:42.680 on changing the public narrative about who commits the crimes. 0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:46.199 How do you change a public narrative That seems like 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:49.040 a big job. Yeah, it is a big job, you know, 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:52.440 I think you know, I'm a professor, So we write 0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:57.800 books and we accumulate evidence, and so that book is 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:00.479 h I view it as a kind of a building 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:04.199 block in the process of changing this narrative. So what 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:05.880 I try to do in that book is to pull 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:09.919 together all of the evidence about the issues a lot 0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:12.199 of the issues that we've been talking about. That people 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:17.600 are changed and affected in early stages in their lives. 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:22.520 That people who experience trauma, who experience abuse and deprivation, 0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:30.359 who are acted upon negatively by the institutions in our society, schools, 0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:36.359