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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.

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Speaker 2: In the last hours a bombshell in the state's case

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Speaker 2: against Quadruple's sleigh defendant Brian Coburger, charged in the incredibly

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Speaker 2: brutal murders of four vibrant young college students in Idaho,

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Speaker 2: we learn a statistical match unlike any I've ever seen,

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Speaker 2: has been made from Brian Coburger to the bloody knife.

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Speaker 2: DNA on the knife sheath found at the murder scene,

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Speaker 2: not necessarily blood. We don't know where the DNA came from.

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Speaker 2: Was it touch DNA? Was it blood? Was it from sweat?

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Speaker 2: Idea know that is that epofilial sales? I don't know,

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Speaker 2: but I know that there is DNA on a knife

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Speaker 2: sheath found at the crime scene. Not just at the

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Speaker 2: crime scene where the four students were slaughtered as they

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Speaker 2: were getting ready for bed in their bed, some of them.

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Speaker 2: But it's found in the bedroom of Mattie Mogan, and

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Speaker 2: not just in her bedroom, but partially under her body

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Speaker 2: and partially under her comforter, her bedspread.

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Speaker 1: What does it mean?

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Speaker 2: We also know this DNA match was obtained through a

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Speaker 2: fairly boutique TESK called str Short tandem repeat analysis has

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Speaker 2: been used forever. What does this mean for the prosecution?

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Speaker 2: And Nancy Grace, thanks for being with me and joining me.

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Speaker 2: Two experts in their fields, first of all, Joseph's Morgan,

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Speaker 2: Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University, who has an incredible criminal

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Speaker 2: justice department, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon

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Speaker 2: and host of a hit series Body Bags with Joseph

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan also with me, renowned detective who has investigated

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Speaker 2: over three hundred homicides, Director of the Cole Case Foundation.

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Speaker 2: You can find him on YouTube at his channel on

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Speaker 2: the interview room. Chris McDonough, gentlemen, thank you for being

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Speaker 2: with us. Joe Scott just jump in. This is a

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Speaker 2: match that is five point three sevenctillion times likely to

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Speaker 2: be from Brian Cooberger than any other person on the planet.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott.

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Speaker 2: Five point three seven octillion, that's twenty seven zeros. That's

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Speaker 2: more people than live on the planet right now or

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Speaker 2: that have ever lived on planet Earth that we know.

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Speaker 3: Of astronomical number. And when you compare that to and

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Speaker 3: what this is the probability that it could be anybody

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Speaker 3: other than Brian Coberger is what the prosecution is saying

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Speaker 3: with this test that they have revealed, and that's pretty

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Speaker 3: amazing because this is I don't know, Nancy, I think

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Speaker 3: that this is one of the most robust things that

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Speaker 3: has dropped in the news cycle since all of us

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Speaker 3: started so long ago. That we really have something to

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Speaker 3: hang our hat on here just from a mathematical and

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Speaker 3: scientific standpoint. And you know what's really cool about all

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Speaker 3: of this, Nancy, they played this really close to the vest.

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Speaker 3: And when we first got that indication that DNA, some

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Speaker 3: type of DNA as you framed it, had been left

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Speaker 3: on that snap for this knife, you know, we knew

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Speaker 3: that something was up at that point in time, and

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Speaker 3: we didn't We don't really know what the nature of

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Speaker 3: that is. You had mentioned epithelial skill skin cells, which

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Speaker 3: is what we get DNA touch DNA from, which is

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Speaker 3: kind of a partial strand we don't know if it's

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Speaker 3: a wet sample. We don't really know. But what they did,

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Speaker 3: and this is the beauty of it, is that they

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Speaker 3: really they identified it, they developed a profile off of that,

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Speaker 3: and then they compared it to what they knew at

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Speaker 3: the home in Pennsylvania. Remember when they went back to

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Speaker 3: the trash and they did the familial DNA with they

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Speaker 3: think his dad, probably through a genealogical match. Then they

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Speaker 3: looped Nancy all the way back around to him. So

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Speaker 3: they completed the circle, haven't they. You know, from just

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Speaker 3: a legal standpoint, on just a.

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Speaker 2: Moment, guys, you're hearing Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forenasics speaking

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Speaker 2: and as you all know, all you legal legals, Coburger's

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Speaker 2: father flew out to Washington State University, which is, you know,

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Speaker 2: ten minutes away from the murders, even though it's an

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Speaker 2: idahost just across the state line, to drive Coburger home

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Speaker 2: for Thanksgiving break. We believe he was staked out the

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Speaker 2: whole time. When Coburger gets home to his parents' home

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Speaker 2: in the Poconos, they're being watched and at some point

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Speaker 2: police go and retrieve trash abandoned trash, which is completely constitutional.

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Speaker 2: Once you throw something out, anybody can get it, including

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Speaker 2: the police. And off of that trash, the police identified

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Speaker 2: DNA from the father, Coburger's father, and that DNA showed

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Speaker 2: that only the biological son of that DNA donor could

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Speaker 2: be the donor on the knife sheath. Only the biological

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Speaker 2: son of Coburger's father could be the donor of the

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Speaker 2: DNA on the knife sheath at the murder scene.

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Speaker 1: It had to be.

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Speaker 2: Brian Coburger because he's the only bio son. Once they

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Speaker 2: had that, you just heard Joe Scott Morgan say, they

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Speaker 2: circle back. What does he mean by that? Once they

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Speaker 2: identified Coburger through his father's DNA, after the arrest, I

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Speaker 2: pursue it to warrant.

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Speaker 1: They obtain a.

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Speaker 2: Buckle or buckle swab, which is simply a brush of

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Speaker 2: cotton like a Q tip in your cheek, and that's

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Speaker 2: where they get this one in five point three seven

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Speaker 2: octillion likelihood that it is Coburger. This it's not just

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Speaker 2: the match with the father taken from the trash. They

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Speaker 2: circle back, as Joe Scott Morgan put it, and get

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Speaker 2: his Coburger's DNA from his and it's an incredible astronomical match.

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Speaker 2: Now you mentioned Joe Scott, have you carry on where

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Speaker 2: you left off? But you mentioned a wet sample if

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Speaker 2: you could explain what you mean by a wet sample

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Speaker 2: of epthelial DNA?

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Speaker 3: All right, So when we're thinking about a wet sample

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Speaker 3: of you know, one of the things that comes to mind,

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Speaker 3: for instance, is like a deposition or a deposit of

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Speaker 3: say like a blood droplet. And we're not talking about

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Speaker 3: blood droplets that may have come from the from the victims,

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Speaker 3: let's put that to the side. We're talking about something

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Speaker 3: that may have been generated by him, all right, by

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Speaker 3: the accused, by coburger. So we have blood, we have saliva,

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Speaker 3: and also we have semen about sweat potentially yes, possibly

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Speaker 3: did you say you wait? Repeat that again?

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Speaker 2: Oh, sweat perspiration, sweat perspiration bo for lack of a

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Speaker 2: better term.

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Speaker 3: Right, and you can get dropped with some sweat that

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Speaker 3: would also contain these DNA strands in them as well.

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Speaker 2: And you know when I haven't thought, I have to

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Speaker 2: get it out right then or it's gone forever. You

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Speaker 2: know what this reminds me of? And I don't know

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Speaker 2: what happened to Chris mcdonnough. I've never known him. He's

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Speaker 2: uncharacteristically silent here. But do you guys remember making a murderer,

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Speaker 2: Stephen Avery, who totally committed murder by the way he

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Speaker 2: murdered Teresa Hallback. I don't care what anybody says. Do

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Speaker 2: you remember his DNA was found on multiple places on

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Speaker 2: her car that he had hidden in his backyard. With

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Speaker 2: the trees and stuff limbs on top of it. His DNA,

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Speaker 2: as I recall, Jackie, will you check, was found on

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Speaker 2: the ignition steering wheel in different parts of her car.

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Speaker 2: Can't you just imagine him after he's raped her and

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Speaker 2: murdered her and burned her in a fire pit in

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Speaker 2: the backyard. Friends and relatives say they saw him stirring

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Speaker 2: a fire pit until the early morning hour was a

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Speaker 2: bonfire and the studs offered daisy fiuents jeans were found

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Speaker 2: in that bonfire, by the way, they Can't you just

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Speaker 2: imagine him trying to high cover his tracks, cranking up

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Speaker 2: her car and moving it to the back end of

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Speaker 2: his salvage yard, sweating, hunched over the wheel, thinking how

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Speaker 2: the hell am I going to get rid of this car?

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Speaker 2: And sweating and that sweat that DNA was linked to him.

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Speaker 2: Why else would he be in her car? Same thing here, sweat.

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Speaker 2: That's just an example, I thought, I Joe Scott.

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Speaker 3: I mean, well, yeah, and I have to believe Nancy

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Speaker 3: that you know with this attack, you're I think you're

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Speaker 3: right on the money. Is this is going to be

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Speaker 3: a fevered event. And what I mean by that is

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Speaker 3: that when all of a sudden done and we'd learn

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Speaker 3: everything that happened tragically.

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Speaker 2: Oh ch and key Shine could get Jackie on the

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Speaker 2: key and key Chine. So he's sweating as he's trying

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Speaker 2: to crank that car up. And now when you said

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Speaker 2: a favorite event McDonald, Chris mcdonad, did you hear that

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Speaker 2: a favored event is the way Joe Scott said it

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Speaker 2: a frenzy, a hysteria, a murderous hysteria. And you know,

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Speaker 2: he was sweating, and I wonder if that is the

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Speaker 2: DNA taking off the night that our epiphilial.

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Speaker 4: Skin sets. Nancy did dovetail into what doctor Shane.

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Speaker 5: Your point there is, you know we I think we

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Speaker 5: all remember that this guy is so methodical. Yeah, and

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Speaker 5: as he goes into this situation, it's a very controlled

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Speaker 5: emotional event for him initially and as these guys get

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Speaker 5: into this and covert specifically, if he's our guy, which

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Speaker 5: it sounds like he is now, I mean that you're

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Speaker 5: going to have to go to another world to try

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Speaker 5: to find a DNA man.

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Speaker 6: That's another planet, yeah, literally, and you know, talk about

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Speaker 6: a force multiplier, and so I can I can envision

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Speaker 6: this guy.

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Speaker 4: It's it's so personal for him. Remember we talked earlier,

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Speaker 4: all of us about you know, this is a a

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Speaker 4: very you know, thought out crime and the fact that

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Speaker 4: he was you know, studying you know, criminology, the fact

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Speaker 4: that he had mentors through his professor, and the mandatory

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Speaker 4: reading type of books. He was trying to model himself after,

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Speaker 4: you know, one of these individuals who you know, serial killer,

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Speaker 4: you know, potential in the making year and then to

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Speaker 4: find this mistake is a crushing blow to him. But

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Speaker 4: at the same time, during the commission of this act,

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Speaker 4: the crime, I think he may have even I was

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Speaker 4: talking to doctor Gary Ricado, and Gary thought it did

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Speaker 4: he take his gloves off, and that that in of

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Speaker 4: itself was a mistake because he had to make it

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Speaker 4: more personal, you know, he had to, he had to

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Speaker 4: make it, you know, so brutal, so traumatic for the

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Speaker 4: victims that brought him this you know, power and control feeling.

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Speaker 3: And then to.

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Speaker 4: Look back now and realize, you know, the significance of

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Speaker 4: the minutious snap DNA match. I just think it's fascinating

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Speaker 4: that they nailed him on this thing with that so far,

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Speaker 4: and you know what's going through his head, what's going

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Speaker 4: through his mind?

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Speaker 2: I can tell you what's going through his head? Why

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Speaker 2: the hell did I leave that knife sheet at the

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Speaker 2: murder scene? That's what's going through his head. And I

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Speaker 2: still wish I could have been in that car, that

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Speaker 2: white Elantros. He's taking as long cecut as route, which

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Speaker 2: you know, guys, I drove and.

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Speaker 1: I had to practically stop the car.

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Speaker 2: Jackie, Remember I tell you had to stop the car

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Speaker 2: because it was so dark, And I mean, I've still

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Speaker 2: got twenty twenty and twenty eighteen right here. But when

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Speaker 2: I would be met on a two lane and there

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Speaker 2: were a lot of uh well there weren't a lot

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Speaker 2: of cars at all, but Simmy's eighteen wheelers would be

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Speaker 2: coming that way, coming toward me, I would have to

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Speaker 2: practically pull off the road because it was so dark

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Speaker 2: and all I could see were their lights coming right

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Speaker 2: at our car. Just wonder where along that circuitus route

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Speaker 2: he realized.

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Speaker 1: Oh, hell, where's the knife.

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Speaker 2: I'm betting us when he got rid of the knife.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with me. It'sy grace.

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Speaker 2: I don't know when it hit him that he left

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Speaker 2: the knife sheath, But I want to circle back on

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Speaker 2: something that Chris mcdone I just said, guys, you can

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Speaker 2: find Chris on the interview room. That's where I found him,

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Speaker 2: and that was a great day for me. On YouTube,

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, Chris just brought up a really good point gloves,

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Speaker 2: because you know, this guy Coburger.

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Speaker 1: Had everything planned out, and you.

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Speaker 2: Know what, just watching his colleague on her home security system,

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Speaker 2: watching her watch TV and do the dishes or whatever else,

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Speaker 2: walk around half naked, that just wasn't doing it for

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Speaker 2: him anymore. So it leads to these murders. You know

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Speaker 2: he planned it out, Joe Scott. If he wore gloves,

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Speaker 2: that least begs the question how did he leave DNA

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Speaker 2: on the knife sheath?

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Speaker 1: Well, how about all the other times.

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Speaker 2: He had opened up the knife sheath And I understand

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Speaker 2: it was on the button the snap where you shut

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Speaker 2: the knife.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's adjacent to the snap. And look if

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Speaker 3: he's and again this is all speculation my part, but

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Speaker 3: if he's sitting there fantasizing about this and he's thinking

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Speaker 3: about one thing to do with any kind of weapon.

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Speaker 2: Oh dear lad, he's fantasizing about it while he's holding

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Speaker 2: the knife.

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Speaker 1: It could be sperm. Why did you put that thought

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Speaker 1: in my head?

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Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't my intention. You went there, I didn't

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Speaker 3: go there.

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Speaker 2: I'm following the truth and I don't care what it

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Speaker 2: is or where it leads me.

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Speaker 3: My thought is he's practicing with it because it goes

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Speaker 3: to muscle memory. He's fantasizing about this flipping. If he's

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Speaker 3: slipping that class on their nancy, you'll have multiple touches.

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Speaker 3: Then you get into the gloves, and then you put

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Speaker 3: the gloves on. Maybe you tried it with the gloves,

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Speaker 3: who knows, and you know the gloves. If they ever

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Speaker 3: recover those again, that would be great sourcing because what

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Speaker 3: happens with latex gloves. I can tell you from a

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Speaker 3: person that you're speaking to right now that has spent

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Speaker 3: literally thousands upon thousands of hours wearing Latex gloves. They're

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Speaker 3: filled with your sweat as well.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's a really good points.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if you go back to that and you really

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Speaker 3: think about if he took those gloves off in the

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Speaker 3: commission of this crime, his hands would just be the

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Speaker 3: contact rice that you would leave behind. Yeah, it would

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Speaker 3: be because everybody knows what plastic rubber feels like. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you're in a high humid it creates this really

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Speaker 3: elevated level of humidity contained within that vironment. You're dripping

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Speaker 3: with the sweat. That's the that's the pause for deposition.

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Speaker 3: But I think the biggest thing for me, Nancy, is

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Speaker 3: the fact that you know, you mentioned that the sheaf

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Speaker 3: was found beneath the comforter and adjacent to this child

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Speaker 3: leg in the bed. This almost has a dramatic thought

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Speaker 3: to it, you know, where he's in the bed, And Nancy,

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Speaker 3: I still hold, as I've held all these months, that

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Speaker 3: he crawled into the bed with them. That's the only

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Speaker 3: way I think you could probably facilitate this where he

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Speaker 3: is on top of these girls attacking them, and it's

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Speaker 3: a real control kind of event going on if he

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Speaker 3: did this where he's stabbing both of them, because how

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Speaker 3: do you how do you access both of them? They're

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Speaker 3: adjacent to one another in the same bed. He's into bed,

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Speaker 3: he's you know, he's in full fever at this point

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Speaker 3: in time. He leaves the sheep behind.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And if that's the if that's theory you know,

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Speaker 4: plays out here at some point, then we need to

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Speaker 4: really be thinking about how far his fantasies were going

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Speaker 4: in relationship to you know, is there a higher sexual

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Speaker 4: component to this.

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Speaker 1: Okay, can you just way straightforward? What are you trying

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Speaker 1: to say, Chris min Donna?

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, if if he's this, if Coberger goes

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Speaker 4: under those sheets for an example that we're talking about

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Speaker 4: here as a hypothetical, then he has played this out

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Speaker 4: in his mind, you know, almost like you know, Ted

287
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Speaker 4: Bundy or BTK. You know, they would sketch things out

288
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Speaker 4: and then of course when the fantasy you know, would

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Speaker 4: be executed in terms of you know, put into motion,

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Speaker 4: it didn't live up to what they thought it would be.

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Speaker 4: And so if this is a situation where Coberger takes

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Speaker 4: the time, you know, to to kill the victim and

293
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Speaker 4: then you'll get under the sheets or something to that

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Speaker 4: effect that you know Doc is you know thinking through here,

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Speaker 4: then he has really gone into a deeper level of fantasy.

296
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Speaker 4: And so I that's where the electronics is going to

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Speaker 4: tell us a lot about you know, the depth of

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Speaker 4: you know, uh, sexual content potentially that they may have

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Speaker 4: because he is living through that vicariously. And then now

300
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Speaker 4: the real thing comes along and it goes down, but

301
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Speaker 4: it wasn't quite what he had anticipated, and so they

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Speaker 4: try to get closer post mortem potentially to the victim

303
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Speaker 4: to bring that you know, that thrill back, for lack

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Speaker 4: of a better term, and that puts him in a

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Speaker 4: whole different category of, you know, being very very dangerous

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Speaker 4: had he not been captured.

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Speaker 2: Just thinking through everything you're saying, and I'm thinking back

308
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Speaker 2: to the DNA, which we've just learned is a one

309
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Speaker 2: and a five point thirty seven optilian likelihood. Does anybody

310
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Speaker 2: but Kyburger, which has Joe Scott Morgan and Chris McDonough

311
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Speaker 2: pointed out, I guess you'd have to go to another

312
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Speaker 2: planet to find somebody else that might have that match.

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Speaker 2: What type of DNA is it? Is it blood? Is

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Speaker 2: it sweat? Is it epithelial? Which is the skin transfer

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Speaker 2: that the skin cells that you can't even see, that

316
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Speaker 2: you leave behind every time you touch anything. And of

317
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Speaker 2: course I believe epithelial cells can be transmitted through bodily

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Speaker 2: fluid such as urine, and I assume sweat as well.

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Speaker 1: Just got Morgan.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And what happens is those cells literally slough off

321
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Speaker 3: and they'll commingle with you know, as you mentioned, these

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Speaker 3: other fluids in the body, and they can be transferred

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Speaker 3: over mean see, I'd like to interject one thing here

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Speaker 3: that has been kind of I don't know, it's been

325
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Speaker 3: needling me all along. One of the themes that has

326
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Speaker 3: run through this whole case is this idea to access

327
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Speaker 3: to these four victims in that house, and people have

328
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Speaker 3: made a lot Well, he could have come into the

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Speaker 3: house before, and I always say the parties and all

330
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Speaker 3: that stuff, And I really hope that within the environment

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Speaker 3: of that home that the investigators have gone into kind

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Speaker 3: of hidden spaces like closets and really done sampling areas

333
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Speaker 3: in there for any kind of DNA foreign DNA that

334
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Speaker 3: may have been in there, particularly with closets, because if

335
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 3: the perpetrator in this case was a peeper, was an observer,

336
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,880
Speaker 3: they may have been bold enough to go into those

337
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 3: areas in order to watch. We've heard about electronics that

338
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 3: Chris mentioned just a second ago to surveil the area.

339
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Speaker 3: But what just what is an individual has gone into

340
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Speaker 3: a closet, They've sat in there, They've had sexual fantasies

341
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Speaker 3: in that closet. Maybe they're what referred to as panty snippers,

342
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Speaker 3: those sorts of people, and they're leaving or taking away

343
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Speaker 3: with them something and then all of a sudden, it's

344
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Speaker 3: just not enough. Any longer and they have to kick

345
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Speaker 3: it up to the next level. I hope that they've

346
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Speaker 3: searched those areas for potential deposition in DNA.

347
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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

348
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Speaker 2: You know what, I also wonder in that vein Joe

349
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Speaker 2: Scott and Chris McDonald, when we have heard that there

350
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Speaker 2: is evidence the defendant Brian Kiberger had been at the

351
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 2: crime scene in the past, had driven by it scouted.

352
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Speaker 2: I believe the number eleven times was thrown out. Where

353
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Speaker 2: was he was he sitting in his car? Had he

354
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 2: gotten out of his car? Does the cell phone data

355
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 2: show that he was closer to.

356
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Speaker 1: The home in the home.

357
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Speaker 2: I'm not buying into the fact that he had been

358
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Speaker 2: in the home prior to the murders.

359
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: Or that he had not.

360
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 2: I need to know more evidence to determine that, but

361
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 2: there's no doubt in my mind he had spied on

362
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 2: them intensely. If his cell phone is showing that he

363
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: was there up to at least eleven times, obviously he

364
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 2: was not secreting his cell phone away or turning it

365
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 2: off or putting in an airplane mode as we believe

366
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,719
Speaker 2: he did the night of the murders. How close did

367
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 2: he get to the home on those eleven occasions. What

368
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 2: about it, Chris mcdonnough.

369
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Speaker 4: You know the point that doctors made the fact that

370
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 4: he may have been thinking about getting into that house

371
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 4: and potentially, you know, hopefully the authorities had checked, you know,

372
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 4: those areas that he you know, brought out. But I

373
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Speaker 4: do believe that just the surveillance, the closeness to that house,

374
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Speaker 4: he would try to get as close as he could

375
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 4: possibly get. I mean, and that may just be sitting

376
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 4: in the back in that upper area, Nancy, where you

377
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 4: where you hung out and you felt that environment. You know.

378
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 4: When I stood back there, I was struck by how

379
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,479
Speaker 4: close it was to those back windows of the girl's

380
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 4: rooms and the fact that he potentially could have seen

381
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 4: into the residents at various times if they would have

382
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 4: left the blinds open, or if they'd just come walking

383
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 4: out onto the back patio. That in of itself, like

384
00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 4: a hunter, brings a thrill that is indescribable when the

385
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 4: fantasy is playing out that the next step is you're

386
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 4: going to be mine. And so if we think about

387
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 4: you know, when somebody goes out and buys a tag

388
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 4: during hunting season, they go out and they sit in

389
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 4: a tree. You know, they mark their territory and they

390
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 4: go through this whole process of preparation and then the

391
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 4: event comes, i e. It's hunting season. This is the

392
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 4: feeling he was going through. And every time he saw

393
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 4: one of those victims either come outside or through those windows,

394
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 4: then the thrill increased itself. And you know, he physically

395
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 4: started to go through this. You know, blood pressure raises,

396
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 4: his pupils dilate, they go through this process, and so

397
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 4: I think he could try to get as is possible

398
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 4: to bring that feeling on.

399
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 2: And also, do you guys, both of you or either

400
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: of you agree that each time he most likely became bolder,

401
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: Like first was sitting in the car would dry by

402
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: then he'd part behind it where you can look directly

403
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: into their windows from above. I mean we weren't over

404
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 2: what forty feet away from their window looking right in.

405
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: And then the next time did he get out and

406
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 2: look in the window directly in the windows so close

407
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: he could touch it. Did he try to, you know,

408
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: initiate conversation with him, like ringing the doorbell and go,

409
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 2: hey is this Jackie's house?

410
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's not, okay, sorry?

411
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,479
Speaker 2: Just what did he do in his links to become

412
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: familiar with the layout of that home or to get

413
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: closer to the victims.

414
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 1: Jump in, guys, I got to.

415
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 3: Say, Nancy, relative to this home, out of all the

416
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 3: home side scenes that I worked as an EMMY investigator

417
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 3: corner investigator, I got to tell you this rank's right

418
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 3: up there with just the floor plane itself is being

419
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 3: very complicated that if you did not have knowledge of

420
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 3: it product to arrival, you'd be bumping into yourself in

421
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 3: this place. Because the way the staircase is set up,

422
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 3: and you know, from what I understand, if I remember correctly,

423
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 3: that top floor, the very top floor where those two

424
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 3: young ladies were found, Nancy, that was an add on.

425
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 3: That's something that was not part of the original architecture

426
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 3: of that structure. It's something that was added on years later.

427
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 3: So this thing is kind of piecemeal. I'm college professor.

428
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 3: There's lots of houses and college towns that are like this.

429
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,239
Speaker 3: But it would seem that you would have to have

430
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 3: a familiarity with the interior house. And I have not

431
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: physically been there, but just that I know you guys have.

432
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 3: But in that open area leading out of those sliders

433
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 3: out there a perfect place for a hide because you've

434
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 3: got a tree line back there. From what I can see,

435
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 3: when those lights are in, that house looks like it's

436
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 3: on fire. You can see everything through those windows. You

437
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 3: can sit out in those bushes all you want and

438
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 3: watch everything.

439
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: I remember the cinder block. I think McDonough if you

440
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: were the first one to notice that.

441
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: Center block stat outside the bottom window where you could

442
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 2: step up and really look.

443
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: In very easily.

444
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it could also been used as a bench.

445
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 4: I mean that struck That struck us. I think we

446
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 4: would all agree, you know, really, audit just didn't look right.

447
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 4: It was out of place underneath you know that window there. Now,

448
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 4: whether it's in player or not, right, we'll we'll have

449
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 4: to wait to see. But those are the type of

450
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 4: things that he would have He probably would have you

451
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 4: put into motion. He would have taken the time to

452
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 4: sit on that block for hours. Remember, this guy's a

453
00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 4: night a night out. He's operating in the dark, because that,

454
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 4: you know, goes back towards his personality as well, where

455
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 4: you know, once you put him in the light, there're nothing.

456
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: How do you how the hey do you think he

457
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 2: left that sheath behind? As methodical as he was in

458
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 2: the planning.

459
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: What happened.

460
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 4: Well, you know, as Joe is talking about, you know,

461
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 4: as we discussed this, that that knife sheath, it was

462
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 4: his you know downfall here in terms of through the

463
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 4: whole process. I do find it interesting though, if in

464
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 4: fact that one of the victims was on top of it,

465
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 4: or it was I know it's to the side of

466
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 4: top of it. She was on top of it.

467
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 2: Jackie the other day was talking about how many times

468
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: she's lost herself in her company under a pillow and

469
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: you have to dig through everything to find it. Hey,

470
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: I guarantee you in the dark he left that room

471
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: and had no idea that he left that sheath behind.

472
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 3: It was a stu It's part and parcel of a

473
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 3: frenzied event. You know, you're the you know, the sheep

474
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 3: is merely a conveyance that's cold. Feel inside of it

475
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 3: is is his focus. And after this, I would think

476
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 3: that anybody that was in this kind of fervor is

477
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: almost like a sexual fervor, you know, where they are

478
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 3: so amped up at this point in time. You've got

479
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: the sights say that the even in the dark, you

480
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 3: do have these sights. You've got the sounds and smells

481
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: all that stuff. He's at a heightened state as he's

482
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 3: leaving this place. That sheep is a laughing on his mind,

483
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: and that that could be, that could be something that

484
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 3: is going to turn out to be his doll ball.

485
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: This case to you Chris McDonough joining us from the

486
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 2: interview room on YouTube and Joseph Scott Morgan joining us

487
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: from body bags. With Joe Scott Morgan, we wait as

488
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 2: more evidence becomes known.

489
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: Goodbye friend, you

490
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 6: N