WEBVTT - S1-E10: Motives for Murder 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:15.600 Diversion podcasts. A note this episode contains descriptions of graphic violence. 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:29.200 Listeners discretion is advised. Way back in episode one, I 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:33.160 talked about my reason for doing this podcast. I'd written 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:35.800 a book about Meo and Herbert Suckers, but I was 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.040 left feeling there was something missing in the story, the 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:43.200 answer to the question of why why did Herbert Suckers 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.479 go from being a national hero to a mass murderer. 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:51.880 As I researched Massad's mission to assassinate Sukers, I picked 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:54.240 up clues here and there from the people I've been 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.280 talking to. But really, I've saved answering that question that 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.080 this episode because it turned out to have more sides 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:15.320 to it than I originally thought. I'm Stephen Talty and 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:22.959 this is good Assassin's Hunting the Butcher, Episode ten Motives 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:32.800 for Murder. So the opinion of most people I spoke 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.319 to was that Suckers had always been a secret anti Semite. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:41.240 He had to be. Before the war, he'd hidden his 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:45.960 hatred inside himself, but really, down deep, he hated Jews, 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.840 and when the war came, the Nazis gave him a 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.080 chance to use that hatred, and he did terrible things 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:57.200 end of story. But that just didn't fit the facts. 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:03.920 So I kept looking, and in that search I found Zelma. 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:08.400 Zelma was a bright, beautiful Jewish girl. During the war, 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.560 on the day her family had been murdered, Zelma had 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.320 been hidden by a Laughyan guy who was hopelessly in 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:18.560 love with her. His nickname was Nank, and she stayed 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:21.919 in hiding, undercover as it were, and learned things that 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.840 take us to the heart of Zuker's life. Her story 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:31.360 also involves psychiatric asylums and escaped Sweden, suicide attempts, and 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:35.799 much more. But her story is mostly about suffering and 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.600 love and never forgetting. Zelma is the key to knowing 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:43.079 the question of why, or at least one side of it. 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:48.000 So I want to tell you Zelma's story. Zelma was 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:52.120 a Latian Jew studying foreign languages at a college in Riga. 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:54.680 She was in her early twenties at the time the 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:59.239 Russians invaded in Her dream was to learn foreign languages 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:04.280 and escape Latvia. She was fiery and she was beautiful. 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.280 In my book, I compare her to a Jewish Rita Hayworth. 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:12.880 I think the description fits. Selma came from a very 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.320 close family she had a younger sister and an older brother. 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.359 She'd grown up in a small town in Latvia, but 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.360 her ambitions were to league to see the world and 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:26.320 to eventually settle in Palestine. When I went to Israel 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.600 in two thousand eighteen to research this story, I met 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:33.840 with Zelma's daughter, Naomi. Naomi was hesitant at first to 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.480 speak with me. She was very protective of her mother. 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.680 So I started out with something simple, tell me what 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:43.920 your mother was like. No, it's throughother complicated, you know, 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:48.080 to describe AND's own mother. You know, she was, first 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:52.800 of all, she was a loving personality. She loved people, 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:59.600 and she she was a very devoted person. But as 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.960 I knew her since I was a child, she was loving, 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:09.240 a devoted mother. But you know, like I don't know, 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.640 if you know what they say about the Jewish mothers, 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:18.240 they are crazy, always worried and devoted and loving, like 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:24.200 without any limit. But I think that it was also 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:30.240 because of her past. She was always worried that I 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:35.159 shouldn't be cold and that I would have enough food. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:38.800 Why Zama was so worried that her daughter would have 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:50.200 enough food, Well that becomes clear a little later. So 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.400 Zelma was a college and Riga. During the Soviet occupation, 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:58.160 she suffered along with everyone else, but when the Germans 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:02.760 came in, everything changed. Her family was forced into a 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:04.960 ghetto in one of the poor neighborhoods of the city. 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:10.000 Barbed wire went up. Food was scarce, but Zelman and 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.960 her sister got jobs outside of the ghetto. She went 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:19.160 to work and returned every night. One day she was 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.400 detained by the police and brought to the building in 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:25.120 Riga with the Rage Commando, the unit that Herbert Supers 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:31.080 served in had its headquarters. Here's Zelma describing how she 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.760 remembers that night from an interview she did with the 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:40.160 USC show a Foundation. We are already inside, as I mentioned, 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:47.400 inside the courtyard, jewelry is being confiscated, shouting, heilding. So 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:52.800 the girls were driven, including me of course, into the cellar, 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:58.720 which was dark. There was a small lamp overhead. It 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.799 was dirty and there were signs that people had spent 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:07.880 there the night because it was rather dirty. In one 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:11.560 corner there was a so called toilet and we were 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:16.360 sitting on the floor. Guard was all the time watching us, 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:22.320 without saying anything, without asking questions, And this went on 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:28.360 until the late afternoon. Towards evening, these Perk and Crouse 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:34.360 people started coming to to the cellar one after the other, 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:41.320 and they picked out girls, including me. Upstairs. They were 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.880 all drunk, I could tell it easily. There were all 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:50.800 head pistols in their hands. So the so called officer 0:06:52.240 --> 0:07:01.279 are facing me, said upstairs. And I did go upstairs 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:04.039 because there was no other way out. She was brought 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:07.360 to a room where Victor Rush, the leader of the commandos, 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.560 was waiting. She begged him to let her go, but 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:16.520 he refused. It was in his office he rated me, 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:24.680 He humiliated me, He tortured me sexually, and I thought 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:30.600 that at the end his name was Arrays, lictors Arrayes. 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.480 How did she know it was Robed himself who was 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:42.160 the perpetrator. I wouldn't have known it. But when I 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:47.920 was crying and weeping and asking for mercy, he said, 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.920 you bitch, don't you know who is standing before you? 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:57.160 He said, I am niktos Arra is the boss of 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:05.880 this place. Some months later, Zelma was told that the 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.200 Nazis were going to round up the Jews and take 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.239 them to a work camp outside of Latvia. Her father 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.920 was hopeful, maybe the Nazis would let them live. Of course, 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:19.560 there had been atrocities and murders, but who knew. It 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.760 was still early in the war, and stories about concentration 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:28.560 camps and the gas chambers hadn't started circulating yet. But 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:32.680 Zelma sent something terrible was happening. So one day she 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:35.760 said goodbye to her parents as usual and told her 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:39.199 sister what she was planning. Please don't tell our parents. 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.600 I shouldn't know anything. They will not survive if they 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.640 hear what I'm going to do. I'm going to commit suicide. 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.079 I'm not going to give them a chance to torture me, 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.640 to rape me again and to kill me. I will 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:58.560 die away. I found correct. She was going to commit 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:03.800 suicide by opinion the Daugava River that flowed through Riga. 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.920 She wouldn't allow the Nazis and their accomplices to hurt 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:12.319 her again. She decided for herself how her life would end, 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:19.080 so she walked toward the river. But before she arrived, 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.520 she visited an apartment where a Latvian man was living, 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:27.199 the guy Knock that I mentioned before. She just wanted 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.280 to leave a message for a family friend, but Nanc 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:32.679 was in love with Selma had been ever since he 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:36.679 spotted her at a country dance months before, and when 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.959 she told him what she was about to do not consistent. 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:44.520 She stayed there in the apartment and Zelma agreed not 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.480 saved her and risked his life in the process. Had 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:56.520 he been caught, he would have been shot alongside Selma. 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.240 So the thing about non apartment was he had two roommates, 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.079 and these guys worked for the Rage Commando who were 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:10.240 helping the Nazis round up and killed Jews. This was 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:14.520 Herbert Supers unit. Later it would come out that the 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:20.000 Rage Commando or Latvian Auxiliary Security Police, was responsible for 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:24.400 the deaths of tens of thousands of Jews, roma, Latvian communists, 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:30.880 mental health patients, and others. They were notorious, violent, bloodthirsty. 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.360 So Zelma was hiding from the Nazis inside this apartment 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:41.440 where Nazi collaborators came all the time. They had parties there, 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.959 brought their girlfriends, not introduced Elma to these guys as 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.160 his fiancee. Then it worked, but the Nazis were still 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:53.760 conducting sweeps looking for people hiding Jews who was really dangerous. 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.200 In the first place, they used to come to get 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:03.120 to eat, drink, and sing all their songs. Even there, 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:09.120 the national songs, not the Anzeme, but folk songs had 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:13.480 a parody against Jews. Let's throw the Jews into into 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:17.360 the river and let's kill them, something like that. You 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.040 can't imagine what I felt like sitting among them, But 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:24.319 I had only one aim and didn't think of anything 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:30.840 that of anything they're saying. Remember, remember forever their name, 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.200 the surname, what school they went to, what they were 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:38.480 doing before the war, whatever you can. You have a mission. 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.240 Why did the rest perish? Why did you stay alive? 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.640 And your mission is the oaths you have. You have 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:49.640 given at the mass graves in the community that if 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:55.000 you stay alive, you will destroy them as many of 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.320 them as you can. And this is what I did. 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:02.720 Someone tried to find out what happened to her family, 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.640 but it was hard to ask questions like that, Why 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:09.280 should it supposedly gentile Latvian girl care about what happened 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:13.439 to some Jewish family. Finally she spotted the next boyfriend 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:17.360 of hers, a Jewish guy who had somehow escaped to sweeps. 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.160 She asked him if he knew about her family. He 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.040 passed her a note telling her that both their families 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:29.439 were dead, along with thousands of other Jews. Zelma was devastated. 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.200 Of course, her brother had escaped to Russia, but her mother, 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:38.080 her father, and her younger sister were gone. She began 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.640 to have nightmares. Her daughter told me that they lasted 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:46.560 for the rest of her life. Yes, she had nightmares 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:51.080 as far as I remember myself. You know, when I 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:54.959 was a child, there was not a single night that 0:12:55.160 --> 0:13:01.160 fast quietly for her. And as my dad was you're 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:05.480 a pathologist, he knew how to treat her. Of course, 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.920 so she took a lot of medicines in order to 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.760 just to sleep at least a few hours during the night. 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:19.480 And she was shouting at night and she was crying. 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.600 So with her family gone someon was alone in Riga. 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.480 All she had a nunk and every day she was 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:32.200 in danger of being discovered. Once the Gestapo came to 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:36.920 the apartment where they lived, and so they knocked on 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.240 the door and my mom she well nunk the left 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:45.480 when who saved her just he told her to in 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.720 the little room near at the kitchen it was usually 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:53.120 the maid's room, and closed the door and my mom 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:57.000 put on a kerchief. And by the way, she was 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:02.079 a great actor and they came into the room. They 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:07.680 opened the door, and then she behaved like some simpleton, like, 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.240 you know, like a person who was in a psychiatric state. 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:17.319 Not so, let's say normative as they say nowadays. Yes, so, 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.680 as they asked, and who are you? And so she 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.800 mumbled something that they said, Okay, leave her, that's not 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:36.000 the case, and they closed the door. Zelma had a 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.600 lucky escape, but she stayed with nanc and despite the 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.440 danger and the surveillance, she became obsessed with doing something 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.800 about the murders of her family. She wanted the killers 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.800 to be punished, so when the commando members came to visit, 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:55.760 she would listen very closely to their conversations. I heard 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:00.360 the names of their frinds, of their collaborators they used 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.960 to come to the house, particularly to meet already, not 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:09.520 so much to Stubbylon and they those people had no 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.680 idea who I was, as they kept sitting and boasting 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.000 how many people they've shot water day, and I knew 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:20.200 exactly whether they came from, what their names were, etcetera. 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:25.360 So she kept a list. Sometimes they would brag about 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.360 what they'd done that day, about how many Jews they'd killed. 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.160 She would listen carefully to catch the men's names, with 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.440 schools they went to, what towns they were from. There 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.120 were other Jews hiding in Latvia, but as far as 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:42.200 I can tell, no one had kept a list like Zelma. 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.400 It was as if while the war was still going on, 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.480 that she'd become a Nazi hunter e. Simon Biesenthal and 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.200 to be a freedman. Even those two never really began 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.760 their search until after the war. Zelma did it under 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.840 the nose of the Castapo. I asked Naomi about this. 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.000 Why did her mother take on this job? Was the 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:09.720 survivor's guilt? She never well. We talked a lot, of course, 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:15.000 but she never told me that she had any feeling 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:20.760 of guilt. It may be deep in her soul. She 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:26.119 felt it like many Like many people. There were many 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:30.880 people who couldn't just continue and committed suicide. Yes, because 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:35.080 they couldn't live with it. I asked Naomi. Why was 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:39.880 her mother so determined? Why was she so determined? I 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.600 think it was very important for her. I don't think 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.880 there are just a few people who just were so tolerant, 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:50.400 you know, and didn't want to find the murderers. She 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:54.760 was determined to do it. Yes, because perhaps it's also yes, 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:56.840 you are right, you know, perhaps it's also due to 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:03.720 her character. This is amazing. I don't know any other examples, 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:08.040 and I've researched this of solo Jews actively surveilling and 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:12.439 hunting Nazis during the war while they were still in power. 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.719 She was the turn like, I'm not going to stop 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.400 util we find this and this and this and that one, 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:20.879 you know, and I want to do it, and that's it, 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:25.040 you know, well, it was It was her character because 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.800 she looked upon herself as a very strong person, and 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:33.040 she was very strong in different aspects of her life. Yes, 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.959 not only in this aspect. One night, there was a 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.600 party at the apartment, lots of men crowding in, drinking, 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.560 and in the middle of it, Zama heard that someone 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:48.440 special had arrived. It was Herbert Suckers. When he came in, 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:51.719 she heard him say something. He was showing the others 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.040 his gun, and he announced the crowd that with that 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:59.119 gun he killed dirty Jews that day. It was the 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:04.000 only confess shin that Zukers would ever make. Zelma memorized 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.600 his words. She added Suckers to her list of killers, 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:16.600 and she waited in just Before the war ended, Zelma 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:20.120 and Knock escaped to Sweden together. One of the first 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.000 things Selma did was to write an account what had 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.840 happened in Riga. She included all the names of the 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:30.400 killers that she had written down, so this was still 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.040 Zelma's report was one of the first eyewitness accounts of 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.680 the Holocaust. There were lots of stories during the war 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:43.520 of the camps and the atrocities, but in n there 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:49.560 weren't yet available first person eyewitness accounts like Zelma's. Had 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.560 she been able to get it out into the world, 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.480 it would have been a big deal. She brought the 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.840 report to the big newspapers at Stockholm, but was rebuffed. 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:03.280 Most important newspaper in Sweden is Dugan's Unitary. I had 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:07.080 a report for them. I went there to the editor, 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:10.360 to the chief editor, and that was a time when 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:12.760 they still hope that the Germans would win the war. 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:16.440 And when I told him the contents of my report, 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.560 he said, I am sorry for such things. We have 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:23.800 no space in our newspaper. She brought a report to 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:27.520 the attention of American and British embassies in Sweden, and 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:36.040 their reaction was even worse. There the report, they were 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:42.040 terribly frightened. There was a list of a number of 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:47.480 war criminals. They destroyed it. There was a list of survivors, 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:57.200 which they destroyed partly, and and that's it. So after 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.960 the war, I thought I would never see it again. 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.800 Most of Latvia's Jews were already dead, but others were 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.080 still hiding and being pursued. It was still time to 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.240 save them and to arrest the man who had killed 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:15.320 Zelma's family. They were still in Latvia. They could be captured, 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:20.160 but nobody did anything. The Germans were still powerful. People 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.560 were afraid getting on their wrong side. At that point, 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.480 it was thought perhaps they'd win the war. Who knew. 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:32.879 Zelma was shocked, depressed. Nobody seemed to care or to 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:37.280 believe her. She never mentioned what exactly, but she was 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:41.879 very much disappointed. Yes, that the people didn't want to 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.280 hear about it there in Sweden, that's right, Yes, I 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.800 think for something political, you know that they didn't want 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:53.480 to spoil the relationships. Yes, she was very much disappointed 0:20:54.400 --> 0:21:00.600 her whole life about it. That's right. After the war, 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.800 Zelma and Nac returned to Latvia. There the Soviets were 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:09.480 taking over again, and Nac was arrested for anti Soviet activities. 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:15.600 He'd deposed the occupation back in. Zelma, who now thought 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:17.760 of him as a friend and not a husband or 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.280 a lover, tried to help. She went to the authorities 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:24.480 and offered to take his place, but they told her 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.639 if she stuck by Knock, she would go to prison too. 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:31.880 As she lobbied for Knock's release, Zelma met and fell 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.800 in love with the Jewish doctor, the man who become 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:39.760 Naomi's father. They married and eventually had two girls, Naomi 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:43.520 and her sister. Knock, by the way, I knew all 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:47.639 about this, he'd even given his approval. He and Zelma 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:50.479 were just friends by this time, and Nac wanted her 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.680 to be happy. So Zelma had all this information about 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.040 Herbert Suckers and the other perpetrators, but she was stuck 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:02.680 in Latvia. The Soviets wouldn't let her leave. Things got 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:07.080 bad because she wouldn't denounce Knock and becoming an informer 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:10.359 for the Soviet spy agency. She was thrown in a 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:15.480 psychiatric asylum. The conditions were horrible and she lost hope. 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:19.359 She even tried to commit suicide, but a Latvian nurse 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:23.960 saved her. Eventually, Zelma was released, but she was still 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:29.119 an outcast. Finally, twenty years later, she and her family 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:37.720 emigrated to Israel, and then things got interesting. In the 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:41.640 late seventies, Victor Raj, the leader of the violent commando 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:44.880 unit that was responsible for the deaths so many during 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:48.240 the war. The man who had raped Selma, was arrested 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:51.520 in Frankfurt, Germany, where he was living under an assumed name. 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.919 He was brought to trial in Hamburg in nineteen The 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:59.080 trial was made possible only because of Selma and other 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:05.119 survivors who volunteered to testify against the Nazi collaborator. Without them, 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:09.520 they would have been no case. Zelma was nervous, but 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:12.760 she agreed to fly from Israel to Hamburg to face 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:17.280 arrage thirty years after he detacked her. I knew I 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:20.520 have to be strong. I knew I have to do 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:26.040 my job. I knew that it has to be proven 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:31.920 that this man is the greatest murderer of East due 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:34.720 during the war, that he is responsible for the killing 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:37.840 of Latin jury, and he has to spend his life 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:43.120 in prison. Naomi went with her mother promotional support. They 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:46.440 were afraid, but it was a chance to get justice 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:51.280 and to find out why and as I told you, 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:55.879 I was with her in Hamburg, you know, during the 0:23:55.920 --> 0:24:00.200 trial of our Eyes, and I saw her there. How 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:03.920 she behaved and how she you know, she was so strong. 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:07.520 She just didn't break down. I think it was very 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:12.720 hard for her, but she did it. Finally, a raj 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:16.879 was brought into the courtroom. Selma got up and told 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:22.480 her story, the roundups, the violent rape, the killings. At 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:26.680 the end, the juris asked her a few questions. Then 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.480 the presiding judge leaned over to address her. This is 0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:36.359 hard to believe every word you are saying. Then a 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:39.680 black and white photograph was placed before her, showing about 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:44.040 thirty men in uniform. The judge told her, then he 0:24:44.119 --> 0:24:47.760 was a young man. Now before you, an old ailing 0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:52.240 man is sitting. Could you identify him? I cooked on 0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:59.480 my glasses, go ahead, pointing at him. At him, the 0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:04.560 court was silent. The defense attorney approached her and asked, 0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:07.400 but how did you know? Is that what was done 0:25:07.400 --> 0:25:10.959 to you was done by days? So I said, He 0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:13.879 said to me, you bitch, do you know who's standing 0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:17.159 before you? He said, habit kind of an argument. I 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:22.000 have no more questions. The attorney nodded to the judge 0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:28.160 and the cross examination was over. Rags sentence was probably 0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:31.600 sealed at this point, but prosecutors wanted to know about 0:25:31.640 --> 0:25:37.879 his unit and about Herbert Suckers. On the witness stand, 0:25:38.280 --> 0:25:42.000 they pressed Garage about his second in command, and Arraje 0:25:42.160 --> 0:25:45.760 finally revealed what it had caused Suckers to join up. 0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:50.880 Rage described his first meeting with Sukers, around the time 0:25:50.920 --> 0:25:54.040 of the German invasion. He said the Aviator had left 0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:57.520 his farm and come to the capitol to meet with him. 0:25:57.640 --> 0:26:02.320 They talked, and Suckers began asking for refuge. Rumors were 0:26:02.359 --> 0:26:06.040 circulating in the countryside. Suckers told him claiming that he 0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:10.280 had worked as a Soviet collaborator during the occupation. The 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:14.879 gossip apparently contained details not only had he turned Bolshevik, 0:26:15.359 --> 0:26:18.280 but the Soviets had given him a Cadillac as payment 0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:21.639 for his services. Other sources I was able to find 0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:26.919 confirmed this. In During the first Soviet occupation, Zuckers had 0:26:26.960 --> 0:26:29.919 been called to Moscow by the Vice Minister of the 0:26:29.960 --> 0:26:34.000 aviation industry. The man had heard about suckers brilliance and 0:26:34.040 --> 0:26:38.159 designing air plants. He asked the Aviator to help the 0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:41.920 Russians build long range Palmbers. It was a tough moment 0:26:41.960 --> 0:26:46.200 for Suckers. Soviets were hated in Latvia for the horrors 0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:49.560 they were inflicting on the people there. But this was 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:53.119 a huge opportunity. Suckers could become a major player in 0:26:53.160 --> 0:26:58.439 world aviation. So he took the job. Later with the 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:02.520 Nazis and control Churs was afraid. He must have sensed 0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:05.840 the murderous rage that Latvians felt towards anyone who had 0:27:05.880 --> 0:27:09.120 worked with the Russians. He was faced with the same 0:27:09.160 --> 0:27:13.400 accusation being made against the Jews and Nazi propaganda being 0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:17.560 broadcast daily on the radio. Every Jew is a Bolshevik. 0:27:19.119 --> 0:27:21.199 If he didn't find a way to separate himself from 0:27:21.240 --> 0:27:24.560 the rumors, he could share the jews fate, and so 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.520 he sought out a raj who took him on as 0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:32.040 his second in command. This was what I've been looking 0:27:32.080 --> 0:27:38.320 for the answer to why Zukers thought he could be executed. 0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:42.520 So he joined the commando unit and began killing Jews. 0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:50.040 It wasn't anti Semitism, it was plain self preservation survival. 0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:55.640 He was scared. He was a coward, But what an 0:27:55.680 --> 0:28:00.280 awful transaction. Savior skin but helped take the lives of 0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:04.920 thirty thousand innocent people. It was in a way worse 0:28:05.000 --> 0:28:08.080 than I had thought. If Sukers had been a true believer, 0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:11.840 someone that really believed that Jews were with the Nazis 0:28:11.840 --> 0:28:14.960 said they were, that was one thing, But to kill 0:28:14.960 --> 0:28:18.639 your neighbors and friends just to stay alive. It actually 0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:25.240 bothered me more than my original theory. So I had 0:28:25.680 --> 0:28:30.600 an answer, or at least a partial one, but I 0:28:30.640 --> 0:28:34.359 wanted to run it by one more person. I wanted 0:28:34.400 --> 0:28:50.080 to know if Zuker's still mattered. Good Assassin's Hunting the 0:28:50.120 --> 0:28:54.320 Butcher isn't over. Next week I talked about some of 0:28:54.440 --> 0:29:01.120 Massad's greatest operations, with snipers, stolen airplane, fall, Harris Masterminds, 0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:05.120 and other surprises. I think you'll like it, and I 0:29:05.160 --> 0:29:47.200 hope you tune in kill. I'd heard about attempts to 0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:52.520 rehabilitate Zuka's reputation. In two thou fourteen, There's actually been 0:29:52.520 --> 0:29:56.800 a musical about him, which played in Latvia to cheering crowds. 0:29:58.280 --> 0:30:01.240 This is a number from the show that asked whether 0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:16.400 Zuker's is a killer or a misunderstood national hero. The 0:30:16.480 --> 0:30:21.320 musical ignited a debate. Some denounced it but others on 0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:24.920 the far right said he was in fact innocent and 0:30:25.000 --> 0:30:30.240 should be publicly exonerated. I wondered if the spirit of 0:30:30.280 --> 0:30:34.560 Herbert Suckers still lived on in Riga. So I called 0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:38.480 Ilya Lensky. He's a director of the Jews and Latvia 0:30:38.600 --> 0:30:42.600 Museum in Riga and he studied history at the University 0:30:42.840 --> 0:30:47.160