1 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: Diversion podcasts. A note this episode contains descriptions of graphic violence. 2 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: Listeners discretion is advised. Way back in episode one, I 3 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: talked about my reason for doing this podcast. I'd written 4 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: a book about Meo and Herbert Suckers, but I was 5 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: left feeling there was something missing in the story, the 6 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: answer to the question of why why did Herbert Suckers 7 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: go from being a national hero to a mass murderer. 8 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: As I researched Massad's mission to assassinate Sukers, I picked 9 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: up clues here and there from the people I've been 10 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: talking to. But really, I've saved answering that question that 11 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: this episode because it turned out to have more sides 12 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: to it than I originally thought. I'm Stephen Talty and 13 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: this is good Assassin's Hunting the Butcher, Episode ten Motives 14 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: for Murder. So the opinion of most people I spoke 15 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: to was that Suckers had always been a secret anti Semite. 16 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: He had to be. Before the war, he'd hidden his 17 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: hatred inside himself, but really, down deep, he hated Jews, 18 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: and when the war came, the Nazis gave him a 19 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: chance to use that hatred, and he did terrible things 20 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: end of story. But that just didn't fit the facts. 21 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: So I kept looking, and in that search I found Zelma. 22 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: Zelma was a bright, beautiful Jewish girl. During the war, 23 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: on the day her family had been murdered, Zelma had 24 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: been hidden by a Laughyan guy who was hopelessly in 25 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: love with her. His nickname was Nank, and she stayed 26 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: in hiding, undercover as it were, and learned things that 27 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: take us to the heart of Zuker's life. Her story 28 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: also involves psychiatric asylums and escaped Sweden, suicide attempts, and 29 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: much more. But her story is mostly about suffering and 30 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: love and never forgetting. Zelma is the key to knowing 31 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: the question of why, or at least one side of it. 32 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: So I want to tell you Zelma's story. Zelma was 33 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: a Latian Jew studying foreign languages at a college in Riga. 34 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: She was in her early twenties at the time the 35 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: Russians invaded in Her dream was to learn foreign languages 36 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: and escape Latvia. She was fiery and she was beautiful. 37 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: In my book, I compare her to a Jewish Rita Hayworth. 38 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: I think the description fits. Selma came from a very 39 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: close family she had a younger sister and an older brother. 40 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: She'd grown up in a small town in Latvia, but 41 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: her ambitions were to league to see the world and 42 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: to eventually settle in Palestine. When I went to Israel 43 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: in two thousand eighteen to research this story, I met 44 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: with Zelma's daughter, Naomi. Naomi was hesitant at first to 45 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: speak with me. She was very protective of her mother. 46 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: So I started out with something simple, tell me what 47 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: your mother was like. No, it's throughother complicated, you know, 48 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: to describe AND's own mother. You know, she was, first 49 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: of all, she was a loving personality. She loved people, 50 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: and she she was a very devoted person. But as 51 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: I knew her since I was a child, she was loving, 52 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: a devoted mother. But you know, like I don't know, 53 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: if you know what they say about the Jewish mothers, 54 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: they are crazy, always worried and devoted and loving, like 55 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: without any limit. But I think that it was also 56 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: because of her past. She was always worried that I 57 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: shouldn't be cold and that I would have enough food. 58 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: Why Zama was so worried that her daughter would have 59 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: enough food, Well that becomes clear a little later. So 60 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: Zelma was a college and Riga. During the Soviet occupation, 61 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: she suffered along with everyone else, but when the Germans 62 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: came in, everything changed. Her family was forced into a 63 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: ghetto in one of the poor neighborhoods of the city. 64 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: Barbed wire went up. Food was scarce, but Zelman and 65 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: her sister got jobs outside of the ghetto. She went 66 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: to work and returned every night. One day she was 67 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: detained by the police and brought to the building in 68 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: Riga with the Rage Commando, the unit that Herbert Supers 69 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: served in had its headquarters. Here's Zelma describing how she 70 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: remembers that night from an interview she did with the 71 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: USC show a Foundation. We are already inside, as I mentioned, 72 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: inside the courtyard, jewelry is being confiscated, shouting, heilding. So 73 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: the girls were driven, including me of course, into the cellar, 74 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: which was dark. There was a small lamp overhead. It 75 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,799 Speaker 1: was dirty and there were signs that people had spent 76 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: there the night because it was rather dirty. In one 77 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: corner there was a so called toilet and we were 78 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: sitting on the floor. Guard was all the time watching us, 79 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: without saying anything, without asking questions, And this went on 80 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: until the late afternoon. Towards evening, these Perk and Crouse 81 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: people started coming to to the cellar one after the other, 82 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: and they picked out girls, including me. Upstairs. They were 83 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: all drunk, I could tell it easily. There were all 84 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: head pistols in their hands. So the so called officer 85 00:06:52,240 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: are facing me, said upstairs. And I did go upstairs 86 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: because there was no other way out. She was brought 87 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: to a room where Victor Rush, the leader of the commandos, 88 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: was waiting. She begged him to let her go, but 89 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: he refused. It was in his office he rated me, 90 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: He humiliated me, He tortured me sexually, and I thought 91 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: that at the end his name was Arrays, lictors Arrayes. 92 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: How did she know it was Robed himself who was 93 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: the perpetrator. I wouldn't have known it. But when I 94 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: was crying and weeping and asking for mercy, he said, 95 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: you bitch, don't you know who is standing before you? 96 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: He said, I am niktos Arra is the boss of 97 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: this place. Some months later, Zelma was told that the 98 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: Nazis were going to round up the Jews and take 99 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,239 Speaker 1: them to a work camp outside of Latvia. Her father 100 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: was hopeful, maybe the Nazis would let them live. Of course, 101 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: there had been atrocities and murders, but who knew. It 102 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: was still early in the war, and stories about concentration 103 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: camps and the gas chambers hadn't started circulating yet. But 104 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: Zelma sent something terrible was happening. So one day she 105 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: said goodbye to her parents as usual and told her 106 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: sister what she was planning. Please don't tell our parents. 107 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: I shouldn't know anything. They will not survive if they 108 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: hear what I'm going to do. I'm going to commit suicide. 109 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: I'm not going to give them a chance to torture me, 110 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: to rape me again and to kill me. I will 111 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: die away. I found correct. She was going to commit 112 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: suicide by opinion the Daugava River that flowed through Riga. 113 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: She wouldn't allow the Nazis and their accomplices to hurt 114 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: her again. She decided for herself how her life would end, 115 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: so she walked toward the river. But before she arrived, 116 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: she visited an apartment where a Latvian man was living, 117 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: the guy Knock that I mentioned before. She just wanted 118 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: to leave a message for a family friend, but Nanc 119 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: was in love with Selma had been ever since he 120 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: spotted her at a country dance months before, and when 121 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: she told him what she was about to do not consistent. 122 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: She stayed there in the apartment and Zelma agreed not 123 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: saved her and risked his life in the process. Had 124 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: he been caught, he would have been shot alongside Selma. 125 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: So the thing about non apartment was he had two roommates, 126 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 1: and these guys worked for the Rage Commando who were 127 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: helping the Nazis round up and killed Jews. This was 128 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: Herbert Supers unit. Later it would come out that the 129 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: Rage Commando or Latvian Auxiliary Security Police, was responsible for 130 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: the deaths of tens of thousands of Jews, roma, Latvian communists, 131 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: mental health patients, and others. They were notorious, violent, bloodthirsty. 132 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: So Zelma was hiding from the Nazis inside this apartment 133 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: where Nazi collaborators came all the time. They had parties there, 134 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: brought their girlfriends, not introduced Elma to these guys as 135 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: his fiancee. Then it worked, but the Nazis were still 136 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: conducting sweeps looking for people hiding Jews who was really dangerous. 137 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: In the first place, they used to come to get 138 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: to eat, drink, and sing all their songs. Even there, 139 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: the national songs, not the Anzeme, but folk songs had 140 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: a parody against Jews. Let's throw the Jews into into 141 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: the river and let's kill them, something like that. You 142 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: can't imagine what I felt like sitting among them, But 143 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: I had only one aim and didn't think of anything 144 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: that of anything they're saying. Remember, remember forever their name, 145 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: the surname, what school they went to, what they were 146 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: doing before the war, whatever you can. You have a mission. 147 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: Why did the rest perish? Why did you stay alive? 148 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: And your mission is the oaths you have. You have 149 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: given at the mass graves in the community that if 150 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: you stay alive, you will destroy them as many of 151 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: them as you can. And this is what I did. 152 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: Someone tried to find out what happened to her family, 153 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: but it was hard to ask questions like that, Why 154 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: should it supposedly gentile Latvian girl care about what happened 155 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: to some Jewish family. Finally she spotted the next boyfriend 156 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: of hers, a Jewish guy who had somehow escaped to sweeps. 157 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: She asked him if he knew about her family. He 158 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: passed her a note telling her that both their families 159 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: were dead, along with thousands of other Jews. Zelma was devastated. 160 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: Of course, her brother had escaped to Russia, but her mother, 161 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: her father, and her younger sister were gone. She began 162 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: to have nightmares. Her daughter told me that they lasted 163 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: for the rest of her life. Yes, she had nightmares 164 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: as far as I remember myself. You know, when I 165 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 1: was a child, there was not a single night that 166 00:12:55,160 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: fast quietly for her. And as my dad was you're 167 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: a pathologist, he knew how to treat her. Of course, 168 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: so she took a lot of medicines in order to 169 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: just to sleep at least a few hours during the night. 170 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: And she was shouting at night and she was crying. 171 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: So with her family gone someon was alone in Riga. 172 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: All she had a nunk and every day she was 173 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: in danger of being discovered. Once the Gestapo came to 174 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: the apartment where they lived, and so they knocked on 175 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: the door and my mom she well nunk the left 176 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: when who saved her just he told her to in 177 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: the little room near at the kitchen it was usually 178 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: the maid's room, and closed the door and my mom 179 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: put on a kerchief. And by the way, she was 180 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: a great actor and they came into the room. They 181 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: opened the door, and then she behaved like some simpleton, like, 182 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: you know, like a person who was in a psychiatric state. 183 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: Not so, let's say normative as they say nowadays. Yes, so, 184 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: as they asked, and who are you? And so she 185 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: mumbled something that they said, Okay, leave her, that's not 186 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: the case, and they closed the door. Zelma had a 187 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: lucky escape, but she stayed with nanc and despite the 188 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: danger and the surveillance, she became obsessed with doing something 189 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: about the murders of her family. She wanted the killers 190 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: to be punished, so when the commando members came to visit, 191 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: she would listen very closely to their conversations. I heard 192 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: the names of their frinds, of their collaborators they used 193 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: to come to the house, particularly to meet already, not 194 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: so much to Stubbylon and they those people had no 195 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: idea who I was, as they kept sitting and boasting 196 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: how many people they've shot water day, and I knew 197 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: exactly whether they came from, what their names were, etcetera. 198 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: So she kept a list. Sometimes they would brag about 199 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: what they'd done that day, about how many Jews they'd killed. 200 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: She would listen carefully to catch the men's names, with 201 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: schools they went to, what towns they were from. There 202 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: were other Jews hiding in Latvia, but as far as 203 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: I can tell, no one had kept a list like Zelma. 204 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: It was as if while the war was still going on, 205 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: that she'd become a Nazi hunter e. Simon Biesenthal and 206 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: to be a freedman. Even those two never really began 207 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: their search until after the war. Zelma did it under 208 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: the nose of the Castapo. I asked Naomi about this. 209 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: Why did her mother take on this job? Was the 210 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: survivor's guilt? She never well. We talked a lot, of course, 211 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: but she never told me that she had any feeling 212 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: of guilt. It may be deep in her soul. She 213 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:26,119 Speaker 1: felt it like many Like many people. There were many 214 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: people who couldn't just continue and committed suicide. Yes, because 215 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: they couldn't live with it. I asked Naomi. Why was 216 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: her mother so determined? Why was she so determined? I 217 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: think it was very important for her. I don't think 218 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: there are just a few people who just were so tolerant, 219 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: you know, and didn't want to find the murderers. She 220 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: was determined to do it. Yes, because perhaps it's also yes, 221 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: you are right, you know, perhaps it's also due to 222 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: her character. This is amazing. I don't know any other examples, 223 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: and I've researched this of solo Jews actively surveilling and 224 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: hunting Nazis during the war while they were still in power. 225 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 1: She was the turn like, I'm not going to stop 226 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: util we find this and this and this and that one, 227 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: you know, and I want to do it, and that's it, 228 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: you know, well, it was It was her character because 229 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: she looked upon herself as a very strong person, and 230 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: she was very strong in different aspects of her life. Yes, 231 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,959 Speaker 1: not only in this aspect. One night, there was a 232 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: party at the apartment, lots of men crowding in, drinking, 233 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: and in the middle of it, Zama heard that someone 234 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: special had arrived. It was Herbert Suckers. When he came in, 235 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 1: she heard him say something. He was showing the others 236 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: his gun, and he announced the crowd that with that 237 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: gun he killed dirty Jews that day. It was the 238 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: only confess shin that Zukers would ever make. Zelma memorized 239 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: his words. She added Suckers to her list of killers, 240 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: and she waited in just Before the war ended, Zelma 241 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: and Knock escaped to Sweden together. One of the first 242 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: things Selma did was to write an account what had 243 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: happened in Riga. She included all the names of the 244 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: killers that she had written down, so this was still 245 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: Zelma's report was one of the first eyewitness accounts of 246 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: the Holocaust. There were lots of stories during the war 247 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: of the camps and the atrocities, but in n there 248 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: weren't yet available first person eyewitness accounts like Zelma's. Had 249 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: she been able to get it out into the world, 250 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: it would have been a big deal. She brought the 251 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: report to the big newspapers at Stockholm, but was rebuffed. 252 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: Most important newspaper in Sweden is Dugan's Unitary. I had 253 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: a report for them. I went there to the editor, 254 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: to the chief editor, and that was a time when 255 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: they still hope that the Germans would win the war. 256 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: And when I told him the contents of my report, 257 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: he said, I am sorry for such things. We have 258 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: no space in our newspaper. She brought a report to 259 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: the attention of American and British embassies in Sweden, and 260 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: their reaction was even worse. There the report, they were 261 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: terribly frightened. There was a list of a number of 262 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: war criminals. They destroyed it. There was a list of survivors, 263 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: which they destroyed partly, and and that's it. So after 264 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: the war, I thought I would never see it again. 265 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: Most of Latvia's Jews were already dead, but others were 266 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: still hiding and being pursued. It was still time to 267 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: save them and to arrest the man who had killed 268 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: Zelma's family. They were still in Latvia. They could be captured, 269 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: but nobody did anything. The Germans were still powerful. People 270 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: were afraid getting on their wrong side. At that point, 271 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: it was thought perhaps they'd win the war. Who knew. 272 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: Zelma was shocked, depressed. Nobody seemed to care or to 273 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: believe her. She never mentioned what exactly, but she was 274 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: very much disappointed. Yes, that the people didn't want to 275 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: hear about it there in Sweden, that's right, Yes, I 276 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: think for something political, you know that they didn't want 277 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: to spoil the relationships. Yes, she was very much disappointed 278 00:20:54,400 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: her whole life about it. That's right. After the war, 279 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: Zelma and Nac returned to Latvia. There the Soviets were 280 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: taking over again, and Nac was arrested for anti Soviet activities. 281 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: He'd deposed the occupation back in. Zelma, who now thought 282 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: of him as a friend and not a husband or 283 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: a lover, tried to help. She went to the authorities 284 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: and offered to take his place, but they told her 285 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: if she stuck by Knock, she would go to prison too. 286 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: As she lobbied for Knock's release, Zelma met and fell 287 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: in love with the Jewish doctor, the man who become 288 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: Naomi's father. They married and eventually had two girls, Naomi 289 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: and her sister. Knock, by the way, I knew all 290 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: about this, he'd even given his approval. He and Zelma 291 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,479 Speaker 1: were just friends by this time, and Nac wanted her 292 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: to be happy. So Zelma had all this information about 293 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: Herbert Suckers and the other perpetrators, but she was stuck 294 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: in Latvia. The Soviets wouldn't let her leave. Things got 295 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: bad because she wouldn't denounce Knock and becoming an informer 296 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: for the Soviet spy agency. She was thrown in a 297 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: psychiatric asylum. The conditions were horrible and she lost hope. 298 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: She even tried to commit suicide, but a Latvian nurse 299 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: saved her. Eventually, Zelma was released, but she was still 300 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: an outcast. Finally, twenty years later, she and her family 301 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: emigrated to Israel, and then things got interesting. In the 302 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: late seventies, Victor Raj, the leader of the violent commando 303 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: unit that was responsible for the deaths so many during 304 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: the war. The man who had raped Selma, was arrested 305 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: in Frankfurt, Germany, where he was living under an assumed name. 306 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 1: He was brought to trial in Hamburg in nineteen The 307 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: trial was made possible only because of Selma and other 308 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: survivors who volunteered to testify against the Nazi collaborator. Without them, 309 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: they would have been no case. Zelma was nervous, but 310 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: she agreed to fly from Israel to Hamburg to face 311 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: arrage thirty years after he detacked her. I knew I 312 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: have to be strong. I knew I have to do 313 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: my job. I knew that it has to be proven 314 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: that this man is the greatest murderer of East due 315 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: during the war, that he is responsible for the killing 316 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: of Latin jury, and he has to spend his life 317 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 1: in prison. Naomi went with her mother promotional support. They 318 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: were afraid, but it was a chance to get justice 319 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: and to find out why and as I told you, 320 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: I was with her in Hamburg, you know, during the 321 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: trial of our Eyes, and I saw her there. How 322 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: she behaved and how she you know, she was so strong. 323 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: She just didn't break down. I think it was very 324 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: hard for her, but she did it. Finally, a raj 325 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: was brought into the courtroom. Selma got up and told 326 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: her story, the roundups, the violent rape, the killings. At 327 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: the end, the juris asked her a few questions. Then 328 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: the presiding judge leaned over to address her. This is 329 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: hard to believe every word you are saying. Then a 330 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: black and white photograph was placed before her, showing about 331 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: thirty men in uniform. The judge told her, then he 332 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: was a young man. Now before you, an old ailing 333 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: man is sitting. Could you identify him? I cooked on 334 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: my glasses, go ahead, pointing at him. At him, the 335 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: court was silent. The defense attorney approached her and asked, 336 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: but how did you know? Is that what was done 337 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,959 Speaker 1: to you was done by days? So I said, He 338 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: said to me, you bitch, do you know who's standing 339 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: before you? He said, habit kind of an argument. I 340 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: have no more questions. The attorney nodded to the judge 341 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: and the cross examination was over. Rags sentence was probably 342 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: sealed at this point, but prosecutors wanted to know about 343 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: his unit and about Herbert Suckers. On the witness stand, 344 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: they pressed Garage about his second in command, and Arraje 345 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: finally revealed what it had caused Suckers to join up. 346 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: Rage described his first meeting with Sukers, around the time 347 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: of the German invasion. He said the Aviator had left 348 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: his farm and come to the capitol to meet with him. 349 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: They talked, and Suckers began asking for refuge. Rumors were 350 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: circulating in the countryside. Suckers told him claiming that he 351 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: had worked as a Soviet collaborator during the occupation. The 352 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: gossip apparently contained details not only had he turned Bolshevik, 353 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: but the Soviets had given him a Cadillac as payment 354 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: for his services. Other sources I was able to find 355 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: confirmed this. In During the first Soviet occupation, Zuckers had 356 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 1: been called to Moscow by the Vice Minister of the 357 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: aviation industry. The man had heard about suckers brilliance and 358 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: designing air plants. He asked the Aviator to help the 359 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: Russians build long range Palmbers. It was a tough moment 360 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: for Suckers. Soviets were hated in Latvia for the horrors 361 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: they were inflicting on the people there. But this was 362 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: a huge opportunity. Suckers could become a major player in 363 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: world aviation. So he took the job. Later with the 364 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: Nazis and control Churs was afraid. He must have sensed 365 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: the murderous rage that Latvians felt towards anyone who had 366 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: worked with the Russians. He was faced with the same 367 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 1: accusation being made against the Jews and Nazi propaganda being 368 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: broadcast daily on the radio. Every Jew is a Bolshevik. 369 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: If he didn't find a way to separate himself from 370 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: the rumors, he could share the jews fate, and so 371 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: he sought out a raj who took him on as 372 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: his second in command. This was what I've been looking 373 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: for the answer to why Zukers thought he could be executed. 374 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: So he joined the commando unit and began killing Jews. 375 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: It wasn't anti Semitism, it was plain self preservation survival. 376 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: He was scared. He was a coward, But what an 377 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: awful transaction. Savior skin but helped take the lives of 378 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: thirty thousand innocent people. It was in a way worse 379 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: than I had thought. If Sukers had been a true believer, 380 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: someone that really believed that Jews were with the Nazis 381 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: said they were, that was one thing, But to kill 382 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: your neighbors and friends just to stay alive. It actually 383 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: bothered me more than my original theory. So I had 384 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: an answer, or at least a partial one, but I 385 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: wanted to run it by one more person. I wanted 386 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: to know if Zuker's still mattered. Good Assassin's Hunting the 387 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: Butcher isn't over. Next week I talked about some of 388 00:28:54,440 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: Massad's greatest operations, with snipers, stolen airplane, fall, Harris Masterminds, 389 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: and other surprises. I think you'll like it, and I 390 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: hope you tune in kill. I'd heard about attempts to 391 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: rehabilitate Zuka's reputation. In two thou fourteen, There's actually been 392 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: a musical about him, which played in Latvia to cheering crowds. 393 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: This is a number from the show that asked whether 394 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: Zuker's is a killer or a misunderstood national hero. The 395 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: musical ignited a debate. Some denounced it but others on 396 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: the far right said he was in fact innocent and 397 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: should be publicly exonerated. I wondered if the spirit of 398 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: Herbert Suckers still lived on in Riga. So I called 399 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: Ilya Lensky. He's a director of the Jews and Latvia 400 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: Museum in Riga and he studied history at the University 401 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: of Latvia. He's young Jewish. I called him up at 402 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: his office on Zoom. I started out by asking him 403 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,719 Speaker 1: how many Jews are left in Riga today and if 404 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: they felt safe. So we estimate that it could be 405 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: at minimum of eight thousand Jews and all the Latvia, 406 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: well majority of them in Riga. Sometimes it's estimated to 407 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: be up to ten thousand. And then of course there 408 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: is much broader group of people who could potentially being 409 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: affiliated with the Jewish community, so having Jewish roots or whatever, 410 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 1: but that's different stories. So we could estimate about eight 411 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: thousand people to identify themselves as Jews, and most of 412 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: whom are connected to the Jewish community religiously culturally in 413 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: different ways. So nowhere there is legal discrimination, of course, 414 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: but also there is no unificial discrimination. And we would 415 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: presume that Latvia is one of the few countries in 416 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: Europe where basically the jewsh community does not see anti 417 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: Semitism as the major challenge to its existence. I mean, 418 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: we cannot say that there is no anti Semitism, and 419 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: of course also to of course story is part of 420 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: story of antism mimatism as well, but but anti Semitism 421 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: we do not consider to be the major challenge. Wow, 422 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: that's surprising. He's saying that there's almost no anti Semitism 423 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: in Latvia anymore, which is great and not what I 424 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: was expecting to hear. I had a few more questions 425 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: on that. So do you think that Latvians have sort 426 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,479 Speaker 1: of faced up to their role in the Holocaust, you know, 427 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: in a sort of full and honest way. Uh, that's 428 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: a good question. I don't have an answer to this, 429 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: because actually we don't know what is a full honest way. 430 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: I worked for the museum for almost fifteen years, and 431 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: for all of this time I've been involved in one 432 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: way or another and researching how Latin society sees the 433 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: Holocaust today. And so I can say the definitely Latin 434 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: society has made a significant progress in last thirty years, 435 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: and we have to understand that also during the Soviet times. 436 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: There's was a complex It's a multi layered issue of 437 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: how halcost is perceived. I asked Elia what he thought 438 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: was causing this change. I think as the generations change, 439 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: and generally as we are more becoming more and more European, 440 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: particularly with the joining the EU and so on, the 441 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: paradigm changes in the sense that there's, for example, is 442 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: basically gone, at least in the public sphere, the concept 443 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: that the Holocaust was just a revenge for the atrocitus 444 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: of the Jewish communists. Yeah, so, I mean this was 445 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: something that they could still encounter in the nine takes. 446 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: People say, yeah, Latvians were participating, it's a bad thing. 447 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: But the Jews where the main perpetrators during the communist 448 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: terror in nineteen, which is basically reproducing Nazi propaganda because 449 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: the Nazis used this as an excuse for their integers repressions. 450 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: They used this to recruit Latins to collaborate. So today 451 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 1: we basically do not see that in public discourse. I mean, again, 452 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,439 Speaker 1: we see it on the internet, but I don't think 453 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: that any sin politician today would dare to say something 454 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 1: like that. This was really incredible. It was earlier, really 455 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: saying that struggle against anti Semitism was over. I cannot 456 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: say that we are in the end of the way 457 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: of how we speak about the Holocaust. But the fact 458 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: that the Holocaust is being now also portrayed rather openly 459 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: in cultural products. We could say we have it in 460 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: the literature, we have it in the movies. I think 461 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 1: it's a sort of a good sign. So I would 462 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: say that I don't know if we're doing good, but 463 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: I can say that not being we have a great progress, 464 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: and that's what makes me very optimistic. So good news. 465 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 1: Zukers was far less popular in Latvia than I'd imagined, 466 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: but I still wanted to ask Ilia the big question 467 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: about motives. I'm just wondering what your personal opinion of 468 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: Zukers is. One of the reasons I wanted to do 469 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: the podcast is the whole question of why. I mean, 470 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: he was a man who had some Jewish friends, or 471 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,919 Speaker 1: he was seen in cafes talking to Jews before the war. 472 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: His father employed Jews in his workshop. He didn't have 473 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: a terrible reputation. He visited the Palastine, He's visited health, 474 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 1: he gave it. He gave a talk Palistine in the 475 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,919 Speaker 1: Jewish club. Absolutely, so he was kind of a hero 476 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: for Jews and non Jews alike in the thirties. Have 477 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: you thought about this idea of betrayal why he seemed 478 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: to turn on his Latvian neighbors, even people he knew well. 479 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: First of all, as we knew so responsibly, could have 480 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: been suspected of cooperating with the Salviettes. Yeah, because he 481 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: tried to work as an engineer for the SOB. It's 482 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: okay they failed with a different story, So it could 483 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: be that he was afraid that. It's only small part 484 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: of the explanation. It could be an explanation why he 485 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: joined the r I S Unit. But the biggest question, 486 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: so why did he actively collaborate? The answer is pretty simply, 487 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 1: he just didn't see any issue. You see, that's the 488 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: most weird thing that when we discussed Sucker's case, we 489 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: do not discuss the case of a fervent And toes mind, 490 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: this had never occurred to me that Suckers killed Joos 491 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: because he didn't see any issue. It was the weirdest 492 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: answer honestly I'd gotten in three years of research. I 493 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: think Elias sensed my confusion because he went on, Yeah, 494 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: so we're discussing a regular person who just did not 495 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,760 Speaker 1: see an issue. Okay, I go there, I work there. Okay, Yeah, 496 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: I kill people, but it's it's a situation. I mean, 497 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: in different situations, I would not be killing people. In 498 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: this situation. I'm doing my work, and part of my 499 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: work involves occasionally killing people. So so what I mean, 500 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 1: the war is going on. It's bad. It's bad for everyone. Okay, 501 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,280 Speaker 1: So I don't know it would extent we could say, 502 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: and we could trust the witness accounts, so that he 503 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: was really enjoying doing what he was doing, that's the question. 504 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: We can't presume that at some point. Yes, but I'm 505 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: not a psychologist, so I don't want to discuss these things. 506 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: But probably he just didn't see it as an initiation, 507 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: that's you see, that's why he was not hiding. For example, 508 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: in the fifties, living in sixties, living in Brazil, he 509 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 1: was not hiding. He was giving interviews, yeah, where he 510 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,919 Speaker 1: said that the accusations against him are fake and that 511 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: he didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. So if you really 512 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: consider yourself guilty, then probably you hide as many you know, 513 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:08,280 Speaker 1: real Nazis did, Yeah, German Nazis. But also, for example, 514 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: as we know, our eyes was living and hiding. So 515 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 1: probably he just did not see any problem with it. 516 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: And I would say one of the key elements when 517 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: we discuss the issues of Holocaust and laugh in general, 518 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: that many people in the r Ice Unit, they didn't 519 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: have any record of membership and anti Semitic organizations before that. 520 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: We cannot say that they were like fervent and to someone, No, 521 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 1: they were regular people, ordinary man. So probably this could 522 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: be also an answer to why he did what he did. 523 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 1: In other circumstances, he would not do that. But circumstances 524 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: were that he did it and probably didn't see it 525 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 1: as anything wrong or any anything problematic. Probably he saw 526 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 1: it as something wrong, but not too wrong. So Eliot's theory, 527 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: if you can call it that, who said Suckers didn't 528 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: see what the big deal was about? So what he 529 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: helped kill some Jews, That's what was happening in Riga, 530 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: That's what was happening everywhere, at least in German controlled countries. 531 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: It was like in the air you breathe, you couldn't 532 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: escape it. So Zuckers wasn't taunting these railies when he 533 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 1: said he was innocent. He wasn't a sociopath. He was 534 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,760 Speaker 1: something far more ordinary, a guy who went along with things, 535 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: who didn't have the courage to stand up and say no. 536 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: There was another layer to this, one that reminded me 537 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: of Zuker's behavior when he first got to Brazil in 538 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: the late forties. In his many newspaper and magazine interviews, 539 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,359 Speaker 1: Zuker's promoted himself almost as a victim. He said, you know, 540 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: the Russians came to my country, and then the Germans, 541 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 1: and I was a refugee, and I fought them in 542 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 1: any way I could. Dr. Sarah Valente, the professor who 543 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: studies the legacy of the Holocaust in Brazil, came across 544 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: a particularly startling example of Sukers doing this as so, 545 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: he says, Kokers claims to have lived without political preoccupations, 546 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: devoting his life entirely to aviation, so he was not 547 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: a political person at all. He was only flying, he 548 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: was only a pilot. And that his country was invaded 549 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: by the Russians on June seventeenth, nineteen forty, and that 550 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:45,839 Speaker 1: the Latvian Jews dominated and enslaved the rest of the population, 551 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: carrying out massacres and tortures. They wiped out more than 552 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: thirty thousand civilians. This to me is very telling because 553 00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: in this moment he is bringing the blame to the 554 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 1: Jews as being the ones who are capable of having 555 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: done this. It's a fascinating article from a research perspective 556 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: in the sense that he has. Kuker further claims that 557 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: during the Russian occupation, he disguised himself as a peasant 558 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: and took part in the underground resistance movement. He didn't 559 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,720 Speaker 1: joined a lot of an army and fought the Russians 560 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: alongside the Germans when they began their offensive in July 561 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: of nineteen one. He maintains that he did not take 562 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: part in any massacre against Jews. He never changed his name, 563 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: he's never went into hiding, and was not accused by 564 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: the Allied authorities. So it's almost like he took on 565 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: this mantle of victimhood and kept exaggerating it to the 566 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: point that he couldn't see anything he did is problematic. 567 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: I asked Ilia about this, as you mentioned, when he 568 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 1: came to Brasil, he did give interviews, and one of 569 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 1: the interesting things I found is that he promoted himself 570 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: almost as a victim and couldn't see anything that he 571 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: did as of the Maattic. As you said, do you 572 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: think this is a wider issue for Latvians that the 573 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 1: suffering of the Year of Terror was not acknowledged by 574 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: the wider world and their own suffering wasn't perhaps given 575 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: the way that they wanted it to. Yes, that's definitely true. 576 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I think many ethnic Latvians in the country, 577 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,839 Speaker 1: but also in the emigrant community, they felt that their 578 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 1: story is being neglected. And there is interesting memoir. It's 579 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: a semi fiction, semi memoir but generally trustworthy by Xantha Mauna, 580 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,360 Speaker 1: a prominent Latvian literary critic, and there she describes the 581 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: discussion she had with some Latvian intellectuals costing the professor. 582 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 1: And there she she describes how a few days after 583 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: Rumbula killings she was talking to this professor and he 584 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 1: said that England and France didn't say a word when 585 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand children from the Baltics were deported to 586 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,359 Speaker 1: say read by the Soviets, So why should we care 587 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: about the Jews being killed? Lots of Latvians suffered horrific 588 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: things during the war, and that didn't get a lot 589 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: of attention even today. I think very important point is 590 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: that the Jews were not seen as part of the society. 591 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,359 Speaker 1: It was not only anti Semitisms, it was generally kind 592 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: of um glass wolves existing within Latvian society. That makes sense. 593 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,720 Speaker 1: Part of the Latvian mentality is that they're caught between 594 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,840 Speaker 1: two ancient enemies, and in the forties they were terrorized 595 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: by both of them. Latvians wanted that story told. I 596 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: would too. I had one more question for Ilia. It's 597 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,320 Speaker 1: great that Jews in Latvia feel little or no hatred 598 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 1: towards them today, but his answers made me think us 599 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 1: Zookers as an example before the war, a good guy, 600 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,320 Speaker 1: not an anti semi. In the war comes and he 601 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: changes completely, but not because of anti Semitism, not really. 602 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: So even if the situation for Jews in Latvia today 603 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,439 Speaker 1: is good, did that mean everything was fine or were 604 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: we missing something? I came to that age old question. 605 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 1: Could something like the Holocaust happened there? Again? That's a 606 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: good question. The problem, as I said that, actually we 607 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:32,839 Speaker 1: don't understand how much this hidden sentiment was present back then. 608 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: Were to say how much the pre war anti Semitism 609 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: which which existed them which at some points was rather hardcore. 610 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,040 Speaker 1: It was non violent, but it was very hardcore, and 611 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: it was present in the political rhetorics, very it was visible. 612 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:55,839 Speaker 1: To what extent it's connected with the events of the Holocaust, 613 00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: to what extent people who were hating the Jews is 614 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: non violently in the thirties, they went to killing the 615 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: Jews in the forties. Yeah, and so I would say 616 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: this is more threatening somehow than than open anti Semitism. 617 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,800 Speaker 1: I think this has to do very much with general 618 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,840 Speaker 1: human psychology. That's why I always say that the Holocaust, 619 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 1: after all, is not only is the part of the 620 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: Jewish history, but behind it as a whole story of 621 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 1: humankind and human being, functions and extreme conditions and so on. 622 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: It reminds me of this saying I heard once about 623 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: the military generals are always prepared to fight the last war, 624 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 1: meaning they learned the lessons of the past, but failed 625 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 1: to anticipate the future. The next war or the next 626 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: attempted genocide will probably be different than the Holocaust. We 627 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: see the past. Clearly, we can't study Seekers as a 628 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: kind of test case measure his anti semitism. The tradeoffs 629 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: he made and wanting to survive, but looking ahead that's 630 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: much harder. I asked Ilia about this. Yeah, so, so 631 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: when when when you suddenly strike when you think about 632 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,359 Speaker 1: the Holocaust and it happens, I guess too many historians. Yeah, 633 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 1: I mean, all of us who sported the Holocaust we 634 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: have rather strong kind of you know, emotional screen because 635 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,799 Speaker 1: but but even us, at some point we just come 636 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 1: to kind of stupor which do not undstand we do. 637 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: We don't have this key to unlocked the door, because 638 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:40,200 Speaker 1: that's the door much ruder than our research than where 639 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 1: we comprehend It's it's somewhere in the field of psychology 640 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: and how person functions in general. You know, I could 641 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: tell that Ilia had thought about the same question, probably 642 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: more than I had, and he come up with what 643 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 1: I thought was a fascinating conclusion. Yeah, so, so so so, 644 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: And that's why I don't like, For example, the question 645 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 1: quite often asked in an age discussions, is Holocaust possible today? 646 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,360 Speaker 1: Let's say, no, Holocaust is not possible today, because Holocaust 647 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,000 Speaker 1: is what already happened. We already know how Holocaust happened, 648 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: and you know it happened. That's it is genocide possible. Well, 649 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,320 Speaker 1: of course, we see it in Rwanda, in Bosnia, wherever 650 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 1: is all the other things? Possibly, yes, possible, Yeah, it 651 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 1: would just not be called holocaust and probably will not 652 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:44,320 Speaker 1: be aginst juice. But it doesn't matter. So there probably 653 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:48,000 Speaker 1: won't be another holocaust because in a way we know 654 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,799 Speaker 1: what to look for. We're pretty well inoculated against that 655 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:57,880 Speaker 1: particular virus, aren't we. But while we're trying so hard 656 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,359 Speaker 1: to spout one disaster, is that where a different one 657 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:08,000 Speaker 1: might creep up on us. That's what worries Ilia and 658 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: I can see his point. A New Year's day in 659 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:22,799 Speaker 1: janu the great American novelist John Steinbeck sat down to 660 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,439 Speaker 1: write a letter to a friend, as World War Two 661 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:31,000 Speaker 1: was raging around the world and plunging humanity to what 662 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 1: looked like the darkest period in modern history. Steinbeck wrote, 663 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 1: not that I have lost any hope. All the goodness 664 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,719 Speaker 1: and the heroisms will rise up again, then be cut 665 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:49,240 Speaker 1: down again, and rise up. It isn't that the evil 666 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,080 Speaker 1: thing wins, it never will, but that it doesn't die. 667 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,840 Speaker 1: I don't know why we should expect it to. It 668 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: seems fairly obvious. The two sides of the mirror are 669 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:06,160 Speaker 1: required before one has a mirror that two forces are 670 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 1: necessary in Man before he is man good Assassins. Hunting 671 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,839 Speaker 1: the Butcher is a production of Diversion Podcasts in association 672 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,400 Speaker 1: with I Heart Radio. This season is written and hosted 673 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 1: by Stephen Tulty, produced and directed by Scott Waxman and 674 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 1: Jacob Bronstein. Executive producers Scott Waxman and Mark Francis. Story 675 00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,880 Speaker 1: editing by Jacob Bronstein, with editorial direction from Scott Waxman 676 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,799 Speaker 1: and Mongesh At Ticketdoor Editing, mixing and sound designed by 677 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:57,920 Speaker 1: Mark Francis. Archival research by Adam Shapiro. Thanks to Oran 678 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 1: Rosenbaum at U t A. Diversion Podcasts