WEBVTT - Julie Bargmann: Innovative Landscape Architect 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:08.600 I often tell the story about how I remember this 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.600 maybe perverse attraction. I add, while we were you know, 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:17.560 eight kids in the station wagon driving on the New 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.680 Jersey Turnpike looking at the refineries, and I loved it. 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.279 I loved them. I just was fascinated by that landscape. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.880 You know. I went to undergrad in Pittsburgh, which I 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:34.440 love that city, love it. And it actually used to 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:38.400 still smell of the steel mills. I'd come down and 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.040 you know, out of my apartment and go, who, okay, 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:46.800 I'm in Pittsburgh. That was Julie Bergman talking about the 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:51.440 sites and even smells that had inspired her work. Bergman 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:55.400 is a landscape architect, and clearly not your typical one. 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.880 She's famous for taking old and industrial sites, toxic waste 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:06.520 dumps and abandoned coal mines and transforming them into corporate headquarters, 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:13.440 community art centers, and commercial spaces. I'm aland Ververe and 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:17.520 this is senecas on women to hear. We are bringing 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:21.560 you one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:26.120 making women you need to hear. If you visit a 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:30.280 site that's been designed by Julie Barkman, you might see 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:34.640 lots of trees and beautiful gardens, as well as old bricks, 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:40.800 parts of defunct buildings, and rusty railroad tracks. Barkman believes 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.160 in preserving the history of a place, using it in 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.400 her design, and when possible, doing it with a touch 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:53.600 of humor. Her company, for instance, is called d I 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:59.840 RT Dirt, which stands for dump it right there. For 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:04.440 her innovative work, Julie was recently named the first recipient 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:09.960 of the prestigious Oberlander Prize, created to bring greater recognition 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:15.520 to landscape architecture. Listen and learn why Julie Bergman is 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:21.520 one of Seneca's on Women to Hear. I'm speaking today 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.840 with Julie Bergman, who is one of the top landscape 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:30.679 architects whose work truly makes a difference. Julie, welcome, Thank you. 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.320 You've been called the Toxic Avenger, the Queen of slag. 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:37.919 What do these names mean and what do they say 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.680 about you and your work? Well, it's funny, I mean, 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:47.359 I I take it as people liking superhero heroes, um, 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.560 you know, so in this case, I think the writers 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.680 you know, you know, used a pretty sexy name, you 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.360 know to draw attention to my efforts, um you know, 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:00.480 to address toxicity, UM and degradation. Sometimes this don't have 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.600 to be you know, super bad. UM. I've dealt with 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:09.040 kind of every level of degradation. UM. But I think 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:14.440 that the I have to say sometimes you know, when 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:18.560 the press would kind of tag me or label me, 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.480 I would be resistant, But in this case, you know 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:23.840 what the heck, I'll strap on a cape or a 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:30.480 crown um. Fine. Uh. And but mostly it's it's important 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:35.600 since you know, the attention to in post industrial sites 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:42.080 was really not very robust UM. So I was happy 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:47.000 for UM maybe those names being a way in for 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.920 folks to be curious, you know about the work. I 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.160 think that's really important. If it cause attention to the 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.560 kind of important work you're doing, it's a great process. Yeah. 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:03.200 So you do read claim UM toxic waste sites, heavily 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:07.880 polluted areas, old industrial sites and you turn them into 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.960 usable spaces for the community. Tell us about that? What 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.240 are you trying to achieve? Well, you know, I want 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:20.680 to make one point here UM about uh, the reuse 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:24.600 of these industrial sites. And to say that UM, in 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.040 the three decades that I've been working on them, early 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.960 on the environmental engineers well into this date also were 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.080 the primary actors, you know, and so called what they 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.400 would call it cleaning up I'm doing little quote air 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:42.839 quotes there polluted sites, and I just had to intervene. 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.520 I would actually sometimes be very angry at their approaches, 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:50.480 which were mostly quick fixes, you know, they you know, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.080 hoggin hall is the you know what they call it, 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.640 which means they just excavate all the polluted soils and 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.839 haul them away to you know somebody who has to 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.240 deal with it, um, somebody else's backyard. UM and cap 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.599 and cover you know, which is importing, right, A bunch 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:13.760 of soil from Kudos wear over UM, all of the contaminants. 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.120 And I just felt like, wait a second, you know, 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:23.480 you're erasing some really important layers you know, of UM, 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:28.360 of history. You know, there's a lot of sweat from 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:35.039 labor in that soil. UM. And I just wanted to um, 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.520 make friends with the environmental engineers and say, let's have 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:44.680 another set of criteria for the decision making here, UM right, 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:53.799 and UH, mostly with the with the aim that those 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:58.479 sites were still connected to the community, right, because it's 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:04.159 all it's a their memory is embedded, you know, UM 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.400 in these sites. So I always felt like it was. 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:09.720 I used to say when I wrote really Mad that 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:14.799 it was a form of robbery um that was being done. 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:18.479 So I knew we could do uh a lot better. 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:24.320 And you actually take these toxic waste sites and do 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.160 it in a way that you just described and transform 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:33.440 it for the community. Yeah, yes, it's you know, there's 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:38.560 also you know what I kind of battled was that, um, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:42.640 the community also would have this kind of perception of 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.760 the sites they were one big toxic blob. And when 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.680 you do your homework and really look at you know, 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:55.839 the flows, the you know, the materials, the byproduct, they 0:06:55.839 --> 0:07:00.280 aren't one big toxic blob. And um, I found it 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:04.320 became super interesting too to think about what I would 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:08.839 call curating the site. You know, like what's hot is hot, 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.760 and that needs to be you know, definitely dealt in 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.960 some ways. But there are places that are not hot, 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:19.000 meaning you know, toxic, and could aren't those away for 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:23.320 the community to get past the chain link fence, you know, 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:27.559 and say this, this still belongs to us. It's being 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.120 treated in a good way over there where it's hot, 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.240 but we have a way in we can still be invested. 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:37.320 And do you consult with the community before you begin 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.800 projects like this. Oh boy, yes, well, because I mean 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:45.960 their stories, their stories create the baseline. When I would 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.240 do diagrams with my students, one would be about the 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:54.480 industrial flows, right, but the other diagram was constructing the 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:58.280 narrative of the social and cultural value of the project. 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.000 So there were two things with the communities. One was 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:08.200 too actually educate them about what the level of toxicity 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.240 is and to just be very honest with them. That 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.760 was kind of radical, to like the e p A, 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:17.360 you know, to be like, you know, I was like, 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:21.640 no wool over their eyes. They're smart, you know. Um. So, 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:24.440 so one was to kind of really be real about 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.600 the condition of the site. The second was, you know, 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:32.960 again their their stories, because those those stories of how 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.679 they would relate about what the site had meant to them, right, 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.320 I mean it was their livelihood. I mean, the workers 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:43.679 housing was right there, and suddenly the site chain link 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:46.360 fence goes up and suddenly the site is an orphan. 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:50.000 So I I would work with the community to you know, 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.360 tease out how it is that they might restore their 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:57.080 relationship with the site again. And are they skeptical about 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:01.000 the possibility of transformation, if you will, of the site 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:05.720 oh yeah, oh boy. Yeah, And that's what's so important 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:09.440 about UM. You know, the technical part of it, you know, 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:13.480 to UM have them and this time, you know, this 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:15.720 time with the E p A and with you know, 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:21.200 local UM like departments of environmental quality and the environmental 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.560 engineers to be very clear about like I said, that 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:28.040 condition of the site, you know, and how it is 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.439 that they could enter into it. But it it took 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:38.880 that was hard work. Well, you design studio, as they understand, 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:43.280 is called d I R T. And as best as 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:47.160 I know, that spells dirt. Why did you choose that name? 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:53.000 I well, I have I have a thing about four 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:58.880 letter words, unfortunately, uh and acronyms. I love puns, you know, 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.080 and I don't know. I also didn't want to name 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:06.560 the firm after myself like a lot are because the 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:10.880 work is bigger than me, you know. And uh, for 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:16.480 whatever reason, dirt came to mind, UM because I like 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:20.480 dirt and uh yeah so it so it's carried me 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:24.559 through UM and it's people remember that. I like that. 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:29.480 They remember. I mean, I don't want to name drop here, 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:31.600 but I will say that I worked on a project 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.880 with Brad Pitt and he like when he first met 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:39.480 he came up to me, he goes, I love dirt, Like, okay, 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:42.520 you're gonna get it. If the firm, if the firm 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:44.360 was named after me, I don't know if you would 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:48.120 say I love Julie, you know. So anyway, Well, it's 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:53.720 certainly evocative, it's fun. Well, what's what's already clear in 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.480 this conversation, as you have a marvelous sense of humor 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:02.600 and you're fresh thinking goes into these projects, you're actually 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:06.839 have used industrial waste as part of your designs. Can 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.360 you tell us a little bit about that and how 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.839 that works. Yeah, First of all, I have to say 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:18.480 I think the humor has been very helpful in dealing 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:23.320 with such serious stuff. I mean I I was careful 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:28.319 with it not to kind of diminish the severity of things. UM. 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:31.280 But the other thing was, you know, the other thing 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.240 you know that humor does is it um It lets 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:39.479 you just kind of enter into um, you know, conversations 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:44.520 with people, and yeah, it's just work that way. And 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:49.040 about the kind of reuse, well, I feel like, right 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:52.600 that waste, when you look at it in a certain way, 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:58.560 you know, is full of the memory of the place. UM. 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:01.720 And you know, if we're all swept, you know, like 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.400 the old hog and Hall swept away. I've always worried 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:10.280 about erasure. But what I like to do, you know, 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:14.320 and I'm thinking about my project, you know at Urban Outfitters, 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.360 the Billy Navy Yard and one in Dallas where I 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.560 experimented with you know, what became known as Barney Rubble. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:25.960 Was to look at the idea of transforming that material 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:31.760 in such a way that you could read both the 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:36.040 history of it but also kind of the future of it. 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:40.640 I mean, the folks at Urban you know, I've got 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:44.440 I got some of my most cherished compliments from them, 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.440 one being that there was evidence that maybe what I 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.800 was trying to do work. He just said, I feel 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.559 like this site has always been here, this landscape has 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:58.240 always been here, but there's something that points to the 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:05.280 future that I'm part of. Oh wow, I was like, bang, Yeah, 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.880 you did exactly what you wanted to do. Yeah. So 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.760 you're the first ever recipient of a new prize, the 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:18.199 Cornelia han Oberlander International Landscape Architecture Prize. It's a mouthful, 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:22.080 but it's a very very prestigious prize. Yeah, what did 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:27.240 getting that prize mean to you? Well? I was pretty 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:31.120 blown away what it meant to me. I mean, I 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.680 feel like and I said this to the chair of 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:35.760 the committee when she called, I just said, I am 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:40.559 so glad that the work is being recognized and the 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:46.440 way of working is recognized, UM, because I've I mean, 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.480 you know, I always called you know, Dirt Studio like 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.280 a nonprofit, just as a joke, but it was truly 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:58.920 not profit um, you know, because I was so invested 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.840 in it being a critical design practice versus a commercial 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:07.959 one where it really had a mission. So I think 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:13.239 from what I am getting reactions to is that the gratitude, 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:21.960 thankfulness from my being um, I guess a pioneer um. 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.600 And and actually that is why um it's named you 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:31.920 know after Cornelia who was just wow, a powerhouse UM. 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:38.120 And so yeah, I think that's it. I'm just appreciate 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.520 the attention to the work and the attention to way 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.960 of working well. And it's clearly wonderful recognition of what 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.280 you've done and what you're trying to do and why 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:57.040 it's so important to our communities. Senecas one hundred Women 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.080 to Hear will be back after this short break. M 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:13.680 Let's talk a little bit about how hard this is well, 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:18.000 what was the most challenging site you've worked on? I 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.360 guess I'm curious. Are there sites that are just too 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.880 polluted or ugly to be reclaimed? I mean, do you 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:28.840 just not are you not able to do certain things? Yeah? Well, 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:31.360 first of all, I have to say, I never consider 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.920 a landscape ugly. Uh. And I mean if you mean 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:42.360 ugly in terms of it's you know, if of it's unrehabitable. Okay, 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.440 well certainly. I you know, I worked with the e 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.400 p A on on super fun sites, and as you know, 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:53.080 those are the biggest and baddest the ones, especially on 0:15:53.120 --> 0:16:02.080 the National Priority List, I mean bad and um oh gosh, 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:07.440 I mean I I have to say, I um, I 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.480 worked with on these sites for a while, and then 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.040 after a while I just had too many bruises from 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:18.400 banging my head. You know, the laws, the legislation, you know, 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:24.520 all of those constraints, constraints just we're so difficult. So, 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.800 you know, I mean, and I could actually say that 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:31.840 those those constraints, you know, of that of that incredible 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:36.040 process that you have to go through legally is one 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.600 thing that makes it impossible. And the other thing is 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:43.840 the you know how incredibly difficult. The toxicity is, but 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.960 I have to say I do think that there could 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.640 be a larger repertoire of ways of approaching those sites. 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.680 I was trying to kind of suggest those to the 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:57.440 e p A and like some owners of this property, 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:01.520 um and you know, so my you know, suggestions of 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.360 like well, why don't we leave this whole entire area alone, 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:09.760 make sure it's not leaching off to the side. But 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:16.520 in fact, microorganisms, you know, actually take care of the toxicity, 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.080 but they take a long time. That is the thing 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:26.080 that really gets me is time and everyone's impatience. Yeah, 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.480 and probably the skepticism is still there, is this ever 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:31.280 going to get finished? And are they really going to 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.720 do what they said they're going to do? Sure? Absolutely? 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.439 And then what's it like when the community gets to 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:51.119 see this extraordinary change? Oh man, I mean, you know, 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.200 similar to what I was like saying earlier. You just 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:59.600 watch them, you know, give it a big hug again, 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.320 you know. I mean when I worked on the it's 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:07.920 the Vittondale project, old coal mine in southwestern Pennsylvania, and 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.520 you know, all the generations right of the workers were 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.800 living right there, you know, So when it became the 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:20.280 park um with this passive treatment system incorporated within it. 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:25.959 There are stories of grandfathers just talking about working on 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.359 that site because they were taking a walk and they 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:34.159 were seeing they were seeing both the legacy of pollution, 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:40.120 but they were seeing the future of regeneration and that 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:45.200 they that they are part of that. It's a beautiful thought. 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.680 It really is. Gives you goose bumps, Yeah, it does. 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.240 Let's go back to your childhood for a moment. What 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.680 was your growing up like, did you think you'd ever 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:01.720 become a landscape architect and what was that moment when 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:05.440 you knew exactly what you wanted to do? M hmm. Well, 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:11.120 I grew up in a very typical post war neighborhood 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:15.520 outside New York City, and it was absolutely wonderful. And 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.480 I often tell the story about how I remember this 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.679 maybe perverse attraction I had while we were eight kids 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:28.040 in the station wagon driving on the New York you know, 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:32.840 the Jersey Turnpike, looking at the refineries, and I loved it. 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:37.399 I loved them. I just was fascinated by that landscape. 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:39.680 But you know, I think that just kind of like 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:44.359 I absorbed that and then it really kind of wasn't 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:50.840 present although you know, I went to undergrad um in Pittsburgh, 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:56.399 which I love that city. UM love it and uh 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.760 it actually used to still smell of the steel mills. 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:02.640 I'd come down and you know, out of my apartment 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.960 and go oho, okay, I'm in Pittsburgh and uh but 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.639 it's a great transformative place. And when you think, okay, 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:14.879 we're able to do the right but I have I 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.560 do have to say. I always remember that I met 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:22.480 the mayor, Tom Burpy, uh and I just was like 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:25.679 we had a conversation about how we took away too 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.520 much slag. You know, it was almost right, it was 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:31.360 almost cleaned up a little too much. You know. It's 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:36.119 like you know, so you know, you know, but but 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:42.359 it was Uh. After after undergrad I art school. I 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:44.640 always talked about how I was in my black hole 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.960 period and uh, I just really didn't know what to 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:52.440 do until I I suddenly somebody said landscape architecture. I said, 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:57.119 what what is that? You know? And I found that 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:02.560 it's the perfect combination of know of of art, of science, 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:06.439 you know, of of being engaging the public, you know. 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:10.120 So I just was like, boom, that's it. I'm there. 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:16.560 I am wonderful so you're I think the first woman 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:22.560 working in the contaminated United States. As we say, did 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.639 you face any special challenges because you were a woman 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.760 doing this? And why do you think it's important to 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:37.960 have a woman's perspective in this field? Well? Yes, it 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:45.119 was certainly, um, completely male dominated. Um. And you know, 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.200 but I have brothers, so if that doesn't bother me, 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:51.440 so um, you know, I mean I I sometimes don't 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.840 make a big deal of it, um, so that it's 0:21:55.240 --> 0:22:00.440 kind of more comfortable. But you know, I it was 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:06.480 the case that the engineers and folks were skeptical and 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:10.439 when I just kind of in a way quietly. I 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:14.840 don't do things quietly, but like just assertively, but just 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:19.120 um respectfully. The important thing here was to show that 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:22.119 you knew what they were dealing with. I mean, I 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:26.800 dealt with the head of environmental operations at Ford and 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:30.600 he basically said, you know, hey, I've got the e 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:33.639 p A has a gun to my head, you know, 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:36.760 and I just was like, yikes, you know. So that's 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:39.240 where you know, I had to do my homework and 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:43.880 understand the legislation. And then an environmental engineer was saying 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:46.360 blah blah blah, blah and the coke works, and they 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:50.119 I go, okay, coke works, and I would get this 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:56.760 completely uncomprehensible flow diagram about making coke. But then I 0:22:56.800 --> 0:23:01.840 would spatialize it and they'd be like, oh okay. So 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:04.639 there was I think in this case, and maybe you know, 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:06.720 if a guy was doing what I was doing, it 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:09.560 had to do the same thing. But I think there's 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:13.919 there's that kind of other level of skepticism to move past. 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:18.080 But I think there is might be a level of 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:25.520 say the community seeing another person, in this case, a 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:30.880 woman other than a bunch of white you know, environmental 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:35.560 engineers speaking with them, you know. So I think it 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:38.720 it for them, it you know, for the community and 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:41.639 for you know, clients I worked for. I like to 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:45.040 think that it broadened their perspectives um and that I've 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:49.240 reached audiences in a certain way by being a woman. Well, 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:52.200 and half of these communities are populated by women, so 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:56.440 you must have made them feel a tad more comfortable, 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.359 if you will. Well, I I talked about their you know, 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:04.920 role in the work, which is usually invisible, but no, man, 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:07.480 they were, they were, they were working hard, but it 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:10.480 was just happened to be outside the coal mine. Well, so, 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:13.359 in addition to all the things that you've been doing 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:16.719 that we've been talking about, you teach at the University 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:21.640 of Virginia. Our students drawn to your courses, and maybe 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:23.560 you could tell us a little bit about their reaction. 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:28.919 What surprises you about about the students today. Well, this 0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:34.200 question makes me remember some of my early seminars. I've 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:37.600 been at uv A for thirty years or something, but 0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:41.040 in my early seminars I would actually show them a 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:44.959 lot of the photographs of artists like Richard Misrach, you know, 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:49.359 of industrialized polluted sites that their whole you know, the 0:24:49.359 --> 0:24:55.879 whole bevy of David Hansen, Martin Pierre going, and you know, 0:24:55.880 --> 0:25:01.240 it was funny. Their reaction was, yeah, so that's our world. 0:25:02.080 --> 0:25:07.240 I'm like, oh, okay, And then I'd say, you know, 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:09.480 I was like, would you like to do something about it. 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:14.320 Let's you know, let's really research what's you know behind 0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:21.080 that photograph? And they loved it. And selfishly, I have 0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:26.959 to tell you my teaching has absolutely supported not financial, well, 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:30.840 actually it is um my, you know, the work, you know, 0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:36.120 the students research and curiosity was unbelievable. So every time 0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:39.800 I did a studio I did. UM, I picked a 0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:45.320 subject that I didn't know very much about, and you know, 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:48.439 a different one will say every year. So like I 0:25:48.480 --> 0:25:54.439 started with of course dump UM about landfills, and I 0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:58.200 think the students were very excited that I was learning 0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:00.719 with them. You know that we were like we're almost 0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:04.200 like an you know, a design office, you know that 0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:07.800 we would uh just venture into these things. And they 0:26:08.040 --> 0:26:10.680 loved the places we would go, you know. I mean, 0:26:11.400 --> 0:26:15.800 I mean, you know, who doesn't love strapping on protective clothing, 0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:20.919 you know, so uh, you know, steelmaking and robeling. You know, 0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:26.159 just we had really fantastic adventures. And they are the 0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:28.919 ones that the students are the ones that really helped 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:34.320 develop this way of spatializing UM. You know, the the 0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:38.919 contaminants UM and you know, combining that, like I was 0:26:38.920 --> 0:26:43.200 saying earlier, with the community history UM and to wonder 0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:47.520 about how how would those two UM come together? Well? 0:26:47.520 --> 0:26:50.719 And I would imagine that what you just described as 0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:54.840 empowering for the students because they actually get to do 0:26:55.040 --> 0:26:58.320 something that brings about change. You know. I think so 0:26:58.400 --> 0:27:01.520 many students want to be part of that today, and 0:27:01.600 --> 0:27:04.080 you enable them to be. I like to think so 0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:06.159 you know, because I'm just like, come on, you guys, 0:27:06.320 --> 0:27:08.960 you know, come on over here and get mad with me. 0:27:09.280 --> 0:27:13.480 But also let's get creative together with this stuff. And 0:27:13.600 --> 0:27:16.560 I'm I'm so I do have to say, I'm so 0:27:16.680 --> 0:27:20.200 proud of you know, so many of my students that 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:22.200 you know, we're out there in the world and they're 0:27:22.440 --> 0:27:25.560 they write me and they're working on these projects. I 0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:29.560 mean this, you know, this work now is not marginal 0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:33.879 for our discipline. You know, it's it's it's pretty close 0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:37.880 to center. Um. And you know, and my students serve 0:27:38.000 --> 0:27:42.399 the ones that are they're they're you know, happily equipped 0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:47.120 to address them. And how rewarding is that? Ha ha ha, 0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:51.160 it's so rewarding. Well, the clock is not our friend, uh, 0:27:51.200 --> 0:27:54.640 and it's winding down. And let me just ask you 0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:59.560 as we conclude this wonderful conversation. Um, these are challenging times. 0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:02.639 I don't think anybody would question that statement at a 0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:05.680 time that everything is questioned. But what gives you hope? 0:28:06.400 --> 0:28:09.800 Mm hmm. Well, you know, I mean, it's a very 0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:13.080 basic thing, but it's a profound thing to say that. 0:28:13.800 --> 0:28:17.560 It's amazing to me that people, you know, and I say, 0:28:17.600 --> 0:28:20.359 when I say people, it's like from mayors you know, 0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:24.200 to women on the street are aware of the environment, 0:28:24.680 --> 0:28:29.240 and um, you know, they may not be acting upon 0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:32.639 this awareness, but I think slowly but surely they will, 0:28:33.320 --> 0:28:39.720