1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. After the recent mass 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 1: shootings in the last several weeks in Buffalo, New York, 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: in Valde Texas, and Highland Park, Illinois, the country has 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: been struggling with how to put a stop to these 5 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: mass shootings. Their debates on both sides about gun legislation, 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: mental health support, and other resources the government can provide 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: to help law enforcement prevent these terrible attacks. But in 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: order to really make a difference, we need to understand 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: who these mass shooters are, what kind of profile they have, 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: and when and why they decide to act. And I 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: wanted to have someone on the podcast who was an 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: expert in understanding the mass shooter profile. So I'm really 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: pleased to welcome my guest, Katherine Schwitt. She is an author, attorney, 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: former Chicago prosecutor career Federal Bureau of Investigations Special Agent. 15 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: While at the FBI, she wrote the seminal research entitled 16 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: A Study of one hundred and sixty Active Shooter Incidents 17 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: in the United States two thousand to twenty thirteen. Her 18 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: recent book, Stopped the Killing, How to End the Mass 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: Shooting Crisis was released last year. Kate, Welcome and thank you. 20 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: For joining me on news World. Oh, I'm so excited 21 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: to be here, and even though it's such a sad topic, 22 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: I love the opportunity to share what I've learned through 23 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: the years and hopefully to just make a difference, you know, 24 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: if only I started with a stunning story from the 25 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: weekend mall shooting in Greenwood, Indiana, where three people died 26 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: two were injured by a twenty year old gunman before 27 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: a legally armed bystander shot the gunman within two minutes 28 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: after the government had fired twenty four rounds. Please, Chief 29 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: jem Eisen said money many more people would have died 30 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: last night if not for a responsible, armed citizen. I mean, 31 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: it's kind of an incredible story from your experience, how 32 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: many times as an active shooter neutralized by a member 33 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: of the public. It's welcome when it happens, but it's 34 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: very rare for a couple of reasons. In the last 35 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: twenty years, out of maybe three hundred plus shootings, there's 36 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: probably been about a dozen. I would say maybe more 37 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: if you count an armed security guard who's trained, of course, 38 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: but a straight civilian on the street happens to have 39 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: a gun with them. Very unusual, very unusual. You know, 40 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: you were promoted to the FBI executive ranks in twenty 41 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: twelve after twenty children were killed at Sandy Hook Elementary 42 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: School in Connecticut, and you joined a violence prevention team 43 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: as part of the White House National Security Council effort. 44 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: When you were involved in all that, you were part 45 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: of a crisis team that responded to incidents, including the 46 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: shootings at the Holocaust Memorial Museum, the Pentagon, in the 47 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: Navy Yard in the Washington area. I'm curious when you 48 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: authored the FBI seminal research study of one hundred and 49 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: sixty active shooter incidents in the United States two thousand, 50 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, what was that like to compile that many 51 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: horror stories. You know, the reason that I decided that 52 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: our team needed to do that is because I was 53 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: the only law enforcement person on the White House team, 54 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: and after Sandy Hook, people were so angry, And if 55 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: you want to know how angry they were, just think 56 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: about what happened after Uivaldi and how people feel about 57 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: Uivaldi in Texas. So I felt like it was incumbent 58 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: upon us to start pulling those numbers together and to 59 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: say how many of these shootings really happen, and everybody 60 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: was saying to us, maybe the media is just making 61 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: a big deal out of it because this was kids, 62 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: and I just was like, well, I don't really know, 63 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: so I guess we have to pull the reports together. 64 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: So we asked all the law enforcement agencies in the country. 65 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: We looked at every sort of research database on this, 66 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: and we came through with the methodology where we could 67 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: pick out these shootings that occurred in public places where 68 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: the public was at risk, because that's really what we're 69 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: talking about. An active shooter is an individual actively engaged 70 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: in killing or attempting to kill people in a crowded area. 71 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: So when we started, I just didn't really know what 72 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: kind of numbers we would find. First of all, it 73 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: was horrible to read police reports about shootings, and so 74 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: many times people just talk about numbers when you see 75 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: it on the news, they say, oh, you know, thirteen here, 76 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 1: two here, eight here. Every one of those is a person. 77 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: Every one of those people who's dead has a family, 78 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: and that's something that really impacts me. My younger daughter 79 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: is a middle school teacher. So when we were doing 80 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: the numbers, there were some things that just shocked me. 81 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,239 Speaker 1: For instance, we studied fourteen years. We found one hundred 82 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: and sixty incidents in the first fourteen years, and we 83 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: looked from columbuying forward. In the first seven years of 84 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: the study, we found six shooting incidents a year on average, 85 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: six So I was like, okay, so that's like one 86 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: every other month. But by the time that we compiled 87 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: the data for the second half of the study, in 88 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: the seven years, at the end of the study, we 89 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: were averaging sixteen incidents a year. So we've gone from 90 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: six in the first part to sixteen. And I mean 91 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: that showed a huge increase that we were going on 92 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: a trend north. And I knew that ten years ago. 93 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: Ten years ago, I could tell you we're going to 94 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: be where we are today, because here's where we are today. 95 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: A couple of weeks ago, the FBI released their numbers 96 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: from last year using the same methodology, and they found 97 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: that there were sixty one incidents last year. Sixty one 98 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: compared to six, so a tenfold increase. Right, So we've 99 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: gone from one or two a year. Now we are 100 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: steadily at twenty. Then it was thirty year before, it 101 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: was forty. Last year it was sixty one. I can't 102 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: even imagine where we're going to be by the end 103 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: of this year. Well, first of all, before I get 104 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: too deep into this, because it's so stunning, describe, just 105 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: for a minute, for the average person, what is an 106 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: active shooter incident? So you know, the technical definition is 107 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: what I saw individual actively engaged in killing or attempting 108 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: to kill people in a crowded space. But you know 109 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: what we mean by that is the public is at risk. 110 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: To me, an active shooter is two pieces. We have 111 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: a shooter, but because the person is engaged in shooting, 112 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: the public and law enforcement both have opportunities to end 113 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: the shooting, or stop the shooting, or save lives. So, 114 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: if you're trained personally as a civilian in run, hide, fight, 115 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: if you know where to go, what to do, how 116 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: to hide, that you should first try to run away 117 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: if you know that there's going to be less of 118 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: a chance that less people will be killed. When I 119 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: did the initial research, we found that forty seven percent 120 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: of the incidents where law enforcement had to engage a shooter, 121 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: a law enforcement officer was killed or injured or both. 122 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: So almost half of the incidents law enforcement is literally 123 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: risking their life to engage a shooter that told us 124 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: law enforcement needs to be better trained. That number was 125 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: probably the most surprising number that I found. The increase 126 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: in the percentage is so breathtaking. Do you have a 127 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: theory for why that's happening. I think that there's certainly 128 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: not just a single answer, right, but there are answers 129 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: and there are some pieces to that. I think we're 130 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: going to see a trend a little bit down in age, 131 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: and in terms of the average age right now of 132 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: an active shooter is thirty five, which is because most 133 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: active shootings actually happen in places of business. Schools are 134 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: only like twenty percent of the shootings. But I think 135 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: as we get through the numbers, maybe over the last 136 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: few years, we may see those numbers trend down a 137 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: little bit, not substantially, but down somewhat. I think what 138 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: we're seeing now is a trend, particularly with these younger shooters. 139 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: They are inspired not by someone who's a radical group 140 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: online necessarily, but they're in online chat boards and they're 141 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: reading things in other countries. And you know, both the 142 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: United States and the UK have traditionally had their vexing 143 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: problem of the neo Nazi white supremacist group and we're 144 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: seeing like twenty percent of the domestic terrorist cases in 145 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: the United States fit into that category. I think Director 146 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: Ray said that's the biggest chunk of the cases that 147 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: they deal with, is these neo nazi, white supremacist And 148 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter in some ways kind of what their 149 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: beliefs are. It matters that they're choosing to act out. 150 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: And I think that in some cases we're seeing they're 151 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: getting egged on online. So somebody here in the United 152 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: States were there in the UK, is online and they're 153 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: getting egged on by others to commit these kinds of acts. 154 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: And I think when one occurs, then another occurs. Let 155 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: me suggest one other thing. After the Sandy Hook shooting, 156 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: researchers really began to take a look at the contagion factor, 157 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: the idea that somebody would shoot because they saw another shooting. 158 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: The reason they decided to do that is because we 159 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: know that there is a contagion factor to suicide. If 160 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: a child commits suicide in high school, there's likely to 161 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: be more suicides in that high school shortly after that, 162 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: and the same thing suicides in your neighborhood, there's likely 163 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: to be more suicides in your neighborhood of your town. 164 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: When the comedic actor Robin Williams committed suicide, the CDC 165 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: said there was a ten percent increase in suicides that 166 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: same year. So suicide is contagious, right, And we wondered 167 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: whether mass shootings were contagious, and the researchers began to 168 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: look into that, and they found that in fact, where 169 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: there was more coverage, there were more shootings. Well, now 170 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: we cover mass shootings every day. Back then, the contagion 171 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: factor a few years ago, in the seven days after 172 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: the shooting, there's going to be three more shootings and 173 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: then would stop. Then there'd be another month or two 174 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: go by, and then there'd be another shooting, and then 175 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: there'd be another three or four shootings right after that. Well, 176 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: we are in a permanent cycle now where there's a 177 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: shooting every week. So if there's sixty one shootings in 178 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: last year's tally and there's only fifty two weeks in 179 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: a year, there is no opportunity to not have a 180 00:10:38,120 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 1: constant contagient factor. So I think that's another thing. Is 181 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: there any think tank or organization that starts from your 182 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: perspective and looks at the totality of shootings and then 183 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: tries to come down to analysis because it seems to me, 184 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: given just what you've said today, that not just active shooters, 185 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: but suicides, etc. We almost need a blank slate and 186 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: a totally new approach to rethinking this stuff because we're 187 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: trapped into a series of analyzes that just aren't accurate. 188 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: That's interesting for me to hear you say that, because 189 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: I wonder what do you think is inaccurate that's out there, 190 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: what is pervasive that is a message that we should 191 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: work on getting rid of well. I mean, for example, 192 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: the contagion theory. I'll bet you almost nobody understands it, 193 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: the death by suicide, the fact that if you're going 194 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: to measure gun violence, the largest part of it is 195 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: actually self applied. There's just a whole series of things 196 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: you're describing. I mean, the scale of increase is so 197 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: sober that it really raises questions about It's not mental 198 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: health in the classic sense. It is a breakdown of 199 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: societal cohesion. In a way. It almost represents Dostoyevski and 200 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: the rebellion against the Czar in the eighteen eighties and 201 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: eighteen nineties, where people are so alienated that they seek 202 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: to live out their alienation in ways that are stunningly violent. 203 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: But I don't know if that makes any sense at all. 204 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: And maybe this is all obvious, and you know everybody 205 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: at the FBI gets it, but it's almost like I'd 206 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: like to see a wall that showed all the different 207 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: factoids the one should understand before you begin to think 208 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: about an analysis, which is before you begin to have 209 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: a conversation. Yeah, that's funny you say that, because that's 210 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: kind of been my frustration over the years. I mean, 211 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: you know what this is like, You get invited to 212 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: lecture someplace, You go in your lecture, and then after 213 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: you finish, people keep asking your questions and there's fifty 214 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: people standing in front of you. You can't get off 215 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: the stage because they want to ask you more questions 216 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: than they say, we didn't know any of this. And 217 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: you know, I was giving that kind of speech to 218 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: law enforcement back when I was in the FBI, and 219 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: that's why I wrote the book. And you know what, 220 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: for civilians, I do a podcast now by the same name, 221 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: Stop the Killing. I do a podcast now because I 222 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: feel like people keep asking me the same questions and 223 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: it gives us that opportunity to discuss all those numbers 224 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: and these kinds of factors. The FBI has been working 225 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: on this for more than ten years, specifically, and we 226 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: issue a report. Who looks at that, but a lot 227 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: of times government agencies look at things. Secret Service has 228 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: been working on threat assessment and trying to target people 229 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: who are going to commit violence for years. That was 230 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: their whole concept was who's going to target our principles 231 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: that we have to protect, so that idea that we 232 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: need to get this message out there. I feel like 233 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: I've been saying that for ten years. I did it 234 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: in the FBI, and then I wrote a book, and 235 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: now I'm doing a podcast, and so I do think 236 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: that there's kind of a hole out there for what 237 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: understanding the entire picture. No one from Congress is calling 238 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: me and saying, hey, explain this to me, but they're 239 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: making legislative decisions. You know, no school board is calling me. 240 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: But you know who is calling me. My corporate clients. 241 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: They get it, and they want to keep their employees safe. 242 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: They want to protect their people. They don't want to 243 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: have lawsuits filed against them, so they are working diligently 244 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: to try to resolve these mass shootings. That we sometimes 245 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: don't see them coming because we don't understand the shooters enough, 246 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: which is really the biggest part. I don't think that 247 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: people understand how to find the shooters and how to 248 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: prevent them from shooting. Both the US Secret Service and 249 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: FBI behavioral people specifically say it's not a profile because 250 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: profile means like a bunch of boxes to check where 251 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: people only look for. That is the word you would use. Pattern. Yes, sure, 252 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: who are we looking for? Because of course those of 253 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: us who've read very novels about the behavioral parts of 254 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: the FBI, we all have this immage profilers, sir. To 255 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: get a better grip of this whole active shooter idea, 256 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: let me start by asking you to distinguish, from an 257 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: FBI perspective or a Secret Service perspective, between a profile 258 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: and a pattern, and why the two are really very 259 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: different technically. That's a great place to start when we 260 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: talk about the shooters, because I think that when you 261 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: hear a collective shutter from our behavioral experts down at Quantico, 262 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: it is when someone uses the word profile, and the 263 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: reason that they shutter is because profile is a word 264 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: that kind of eliminates other things. So if I told 265 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: you that the profile of a shooter is a thirty 266 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: five year old male living in the suburbs who goes 267 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: to his business to shoot it up because his wife 268 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: is divorcing him and he's filed for bankruptcy. Those facts 269 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: could all be true. But then that means is that 270 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: people are going to look for thirty five year old 271 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: white males who live in the suburbs, and they're not 272 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: going to look for the twenty year old or the 273 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: sixty year old. Our age range. Of the hundreds of shootings, 274 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: I've studied twelve year olds to eighty eight year olds. 275 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: Eighty eight. Yes, the Holocaust shooter was eighty eight, and 276 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: he drove to Washington to shoot up the Holocaust Museum. 277 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: People be killed a guard first. So a profile takes 278 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: us into looking for a particular type. And that's the 279 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: one thing we know for sure. There isn't a particular type. 280 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: The only actual profile demographic that we have is that 281 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: they're all males. They're male shooters. And I say they're all, 282 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: but there've been nearly four hundred shootings, fifteen women maybe, 283 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: and of those women, sometimes they are there with their 284 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: spouse or partner. So it's a duo, which we saw 285 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: like at Walmart and down in Texas that was a 286 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: husband wife couple. So most everything else from a data standpoint, 287 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: we think of it as a crapshoot. So that's the 288 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: reason that we need to research it right, because we 289 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: don't have a profile. We're not looking for a person 290 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: who's been diagnosed as a pathological fill in the blank 291 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: with this mental health issue, and then we look for 292 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: those people because they might commit this kind of act. 293 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 1: We're looking for behaviors of concern because anybody could fit 294 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: into them. And what we know is that ninety nine 295 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: are men, but other than that, it could be any 296 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: other things. So what are the behaviors And that's patterns 297 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: of conduct, behaviors of concern. Anybody can fit into that, 298 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: and that's why it's not a profile. But given the 299 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: range you're describing, what does that say about the so 300 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 1: called red flag laws? What I'm hearing in that question 301 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 1: is that, well, then why have a red flag law 302 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: if it could be anybody? And I think that's the 303 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: exact point. I would say, anybody can commit a crime, 304 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: So what are we looking for a person who is 305 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: going to commit a mass shooting? Is on what we 306 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: would call path way to violence, and that pathway is 307 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: kind of predictable. First they decide they're going to do it. 308 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: They get this idea they're going to do this, and 309 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: why they get that idea is because they have a 310 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: real or perceived grievance about something in their life. Someone 311 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: in their life, the business. They don't like the wife, 312 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: they don't like women in general, if they're misogynistic, whatever 313 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: that is. They don't like a particular ethnic group because 314 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: they are a hate filled person in terms of how 315 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 1: we think about domestic terrorists, or maybe they have a 316 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: political belief, a social belief, so whatever that reason is, 317 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: they have a real or perceived grievance with the world 318 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: in general or an individual or a business, and then 319 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: they decide that they're going to act on that. So 320 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: they get this ideation, I'm going to act on this 321 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: perceived grievance or real grievance, and then they begin to 322 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: plan and prepare for these types of acts. Now, when 323 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: people first started talking about these types of shootings in 324 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: the news interviews, they'd stop and talk to his neighbor 325 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: and they'd say, Oh, he's a nice guy, kind of 326 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: kept to himself. He never did anything like that before, 327 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: and the law enforcement officer would say, I don't know, 328 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: he must have just snapped. Well, none of these guys snap, 329 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: none of them. They have an ideation and then they 330 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: plan and prepare. And here's where the red flag laws 331 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: could come in. The planning and preparation can go on 332 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: for hours, but more likely days. In fact, the FBI 333 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: found that in more than fifty percent of the cases 334 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: it went on for days, sometimes months, and even years. 335 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: These are not things that happen in a couple of days, 336 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: and nobody can see. What happens is people begin to 337 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: plan and prepare before the attack. And all of those 338 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: are behaviors of concern. As Secret Service and the FBI 339 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: would say, behaviors of concern that we can see and 340 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: we can stop. So just an example of the latest shooting, 341 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: which would be the Indianapolis shooter, he shut down his 342 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: social media sites months ago. They buy their guns, they 343 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: order ammunition, they change their behaviors in this way. They 344 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: might stop taking medication that they have been taking. They 345 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: do preparation for end of life, They give away things, 346 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: they wipe their laptops, all of that kind of behavior. Remember, 347 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: a lot of these people commit suicide. So it's the 348 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: same behaviors that we might see for suicide. People who 349 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: are distressed because they failed for bankruptcy. They pull away 350 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: from people, they stopped talking to people, they start missing 351 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,719 Speaker 1: their jobs, they pull away from their family and friends. 352 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: All of those behaviors of concern lead up to someone 353 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: committing a violent act like this. So it's not a profile, 354 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: but it's behaviors that were visible. So it leads me 355 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: to two questions. One, in a sense, why you want 356 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: is an interception. You want to be able to step 357 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: into that press. How would you know enough to step 358 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: in Well, I think on a small scale, the example 359 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: would be when you're a teenager and they were starting 360 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: to run with a rough crowd. It's kind of like that, 361 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: and then you try to divert them. So that's actually 362 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: what is done. After the Virginia Tech shooting, the Virginia 363 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: legislature passed a law that requires threat assessment teams in 364 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: every school in Virginia, and those threat assessment teams take 365 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: that information and they compile it. So if people are 366 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: aware enough to report behaviors of concern to a threat 367 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: assessment team, whether it's at a school or whether it's 368 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: at a place of business. I work with clients to 369 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: set up threat assessment teams at their place, at a business, 370 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: for instance, or at a church. Then the threat assessment 371 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 1: team can develop a threat management plan to take somebody 372 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: from overly stress because they've filed for bankruptcy and their 373 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: wife is divorcing them and they might lose their job, 374 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 1: and help find mechanisms to control them, whether that's mental 375 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 1: health needs, maybe that's taking their guns away from them 376 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: for a few months. I mean not that that's the 377 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: dual b all, but just examples of the kind of 378 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: things that might help them to get job support, to 379 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: get another job. Maybe they have a child who has 380 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: some medical issue that's just overwhelming and they just can't 381 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: see any solution and they're going to do a murder 382 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: suicide with their child, for instance. If any law enforcement 383 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: or any threat assessment team gets information about these behaviors 384 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: of concern about an individual at work for instance, or school, 385 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: the threat assessment team can piece together and this is 386 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: how we avert attacks. This is how law enforcement and 387 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: schools avert attacks, which you may seem like that doesn't happen, 388 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: but they do it all the time, and it's hard 389 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: to quantify how many attacks are averted, but there's definitely 390 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: been research to show that we've averted attacks because threat 391 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: assessment teams have gathered information. We just had one in 392 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: San Antonio. A woman reported on a Monday that on Friday, 393 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: the guy she worked with said he was going to 394 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: commit a mass shooting. He had made other threats before. 395 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: She eventually decided she was afraid enough. She reported it 396 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: to her boss. The boss reported it to the police. 397 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: The police went to the guy's house and found out 398 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: from the guy's dad that the guy had just purchased 399 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: a gun, and guy was gathering ammunition, and he had 400 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: a hit list and he was going to go out 401 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: and do this. So they averted attacks because people put 402 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: the information together. Sometimes law enforcement has to put it together, 403 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: but sometimes the school threat assessment team can put it together. 404 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: And Virginia passed this law after Virginia Tech. But I 405 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: can tell you that Illinois passed the same law after 406 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: the Northern Illinois shooting up there at that university. Connecticut 407 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: passed it after Sandy Hook. But we don't have a 408 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: national policy or certainly any funding to support threat assessment teams, 409 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: and some of the schools and places have threat assessment teams, 410 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: but they don't really use them. I have to ask 411 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: you this. Have you looked at the guy in Las 412 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: Vegas who killed so many people at the Live Nations shooting. Yeah, 413 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: I've never understood that, but I can tell you that 414 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: the FBI's behavioral team specifically looked at him and looked 415 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: at the facts behind that case, and they found that 416 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: was one of those kind of rarer cases where they 417 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: found absolutely no explanation for why he did that. It 418 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: was definitely the most tragic situation that we faced, but 419 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: we don't have a reason why despite everybody's look at it. Yeah, 420 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 1: what that's the sense I got is that it occurred. 421 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: It's kind of an isolation very much so it just 422 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: happened as a tragedy. You know what, even though that's 423 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: true about the incident, there were behaviors of concern. That 424 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: guy took cases, cases of weapons and ammunition into that 425 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: hotel room, stayed there for a long time, and nobody 426 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: questioned it. And I can tell you that that hotel 427 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: and all the hotels in Vegas changed their policies after 428 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: that about allowing somebody to stay in their room and 429 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: never checking on it. So if you were to take 430 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: that example and example the schools that have active intervention programs, 431 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: are there a set of best practices which, in a 432 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: sense how to consciously permeate the country and become a 433 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: standard of how to minimize and avoid these kind of disasters. 434 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: I think there are, for sure. I think you have 435 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: to have school counselors and principles who are trained to 436 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: understand what behaviors to look for. Law enforcement in the 437 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: communities have to be trained to do that. Since Columbine 438 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: and even before, but certainly since Columbine, a lot of 439 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: law enforcement was trained in how to respond to an 440 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: active shooter. But until the FBI picked up the mantle 441 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 1: after Sandy Hook, there wasn't a national messaging on how 442 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: civilians should respond, run hyde fight, and how law enforcement 443 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: should respond. And that national messaging really helped to permeate 444 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: the message throughout the United States. And I think we 445 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: don't have that when it comes to threats teams. So 446 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: we have a lot of people out there ringing their 447 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: bells about thread assessment teams, but not a lot of 448 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: national messaging on it. From that simple Were you surprised 449 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: at how badly Uvaldi was handled? Oh? Yes, it hurts 450 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: my head. It hurts my head how bad that was. 451 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: I was not only just surprised at how badly it 452 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: was handled, I was kind of shocked and disappointed in 453 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: a personal way because the initial response to that whole 454 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,199 Speaker 1: type of shooting was the FBI has to do a 455 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: better job of supporting law enforcement and giving them the 456 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: training and making sure. And while I was in the FBI, 457 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: we trained three hundred and thirty of our tactical instructors 458 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: in this type of training. We created train the Trainer 459 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: programs so they could work out of our fifty six 460 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: field offices and go to these small towns. You know, 461 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: most law enforcement departments are fifty or less. They're very 462 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 1: small departments. They don't have money for training, they don't 463 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: have money to travel. And so we trained all these 464 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: tactical instructors to give free training on the ground in 465 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: their communities to these local law enforcement officers. And we 466 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: have given and I don't say it's free, it's tax dollars, right, 467 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: But I thought it was well spent tax dollars because 468 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: we sent the equipment to every field office and we 469 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,239 Speaker 1: trained tens of thousands of law enforcement officers, and the 470 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: officers at Yuvaldi. Most all those officers were trained in 471 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: the exact same methodology, and so after all of these years, 472 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: to see such groupthink fail was just gut wrenching. It 473 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: was gut wrenching. Yeah, it's just tragic. Well, all law enforcement, 474 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: you should be thinking always when you're on the scene 475 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: about saving the lives of the people who are at risk. 476 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: You have better training than they do, you have better 477 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: equipment than they do. They have nothing. The idea that 478 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: there were kids and adults bleeding out at the end 479 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: of that hallway and those guys were standing in the 480 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: hallway fist bumping and cleaning their hands with hands sanitizer 481 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: made me want to throw up. Truthfully, I was so 482 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: upset to astonishing. You know, in the world of law enforcement, 483 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: it's not easy to do, but it's simple to do. 484 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: We saw from the film that officers ran right in 485 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: there was shooting underway. They should have gone through the door. 486 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: They backed away, they stopped, they went back to the door. 487 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: They waited when they were shot at. They should have 488 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: gone through the door. They should have gone through the walls. 489 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: They saw where the shooting was coming from. Because they 490 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: were shot at, they should have shot back and they 491 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: didn't do that. They retreated again down the hallway. So 492 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: everything they did was wrong. From the moment that they 493 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: stopped at the doorway, everything was wrong. It was just 494 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: all wrong. Do you think it's because just their cohesion 495 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: broke down? You know, law enforcement is trained in incident command, 496 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: it's trained under the NYM system that everybody uses, that's 497 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: National Incident Management. They knew what to do. I think 498 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: that's the heartbreaking part is that those officers. You hear 499 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: some of it in the chatter and they'll be more released. 500 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: They knew what to do. It was I think a 501 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: question of not being able to execute it at that moment. 502 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: And then once they had stopped. I mean, think about it. 503 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: You're barreling down the highway at eighty miles an hour 504 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: and you get off on the off ramp, you can't 505 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: get back on. And they didn't make that decision at 506 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: the moment, and then it was easy for them to 507 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: just say, well, somebody else is going to have to 508 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: figure this out, and it was I think a lot 509 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: of nobody was in charge, even though it's so clear 510 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: to all of law enforcement that the first person on 511 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: the scene is the person in charge. That's the rule 512 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: in law enforcement, you're in charge. You're the incident commander 513 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: until somebody else takes over. So all those law enforcement 514 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: officers that showed up, every one of them should have 515 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: been responding, and there will be a reckoning. And I 516 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: think the sad part is that, you know, we see 517 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: after these kinds of incidents, we also see suicides in 518 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: law enforcement, and there will probably be suicides there. I 519 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: hope not. It should all be on mental health watch 520 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: right now. Their families should be aware of that, their 521 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: communities should be aware. It's such a sad response, and 522 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: there's no excuse for it. They were all trained in it. 523 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: Those officers were trained in the same training that we 524 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: gave our technical officers, that our technical officers gave to 525 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: the United States law enforcement. So I want to thank you. 526 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: I'm really impressed with how much this is your life, 527 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: not just your job, and how much you are dedicated 528 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: to trying to help America sort its way through this thing. 529 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: And your book Stop the Killing, How to End the 530 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: Mass Shooting Crisis, I think is going to really help 531 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: change things. Not just remembers the law enforcement, but I 532 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: think those who establish public policy need to really understand 533 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: the way you do in a much more sophisticated way 534 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: the patterns of what we've been up against and the 535 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: way those patterns are evolving. I want to thank you 536 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: for joining me, and I hope we have a chance 537 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: to continue this dialogue in the future. I appreciate the opportunity, 538 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: and you know, I know books are expensive, so I'm 539 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: just going to plug this and say podcasts are free. 540 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: How do they reach your podcast? You can go to 541 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: my website. Stop the Killing is on the website, so 542 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: it's Katherine Schweite dot com ka T h E r 543 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: I N E shwe I t dot com. We'll do 544 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,719 Speaker 1: all we can try to help you. Thank you. I 545 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: think you know. More important to me is that we 546 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: do all we can to stop the killing. Thank you 547 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: to my guest Katherine Schwitt. You can get a link 548 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: to buy her book Stop the Killing How to End 549 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: the Mass Shooting Crisis on our show page at Newtsworld 550 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: dot com. News World is produced by Gangwistreet sixty and iHeartMedia. 551 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer is Rebecca Hell, 552 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The work for the 553 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley Special thanks to the 554 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: team at Gingwich three sixty. If you've been enjoying news World, 555 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 556 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 557 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 558 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: of news World can sign up from my three free 559 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: weekly columns at Gingwich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. 560 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich. This is news World.