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Speaker 1: Hello, fellow conspiracy realist. Quick disclaimer for this interview. We're

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Speaker 1: massively excited to talk with our good friend Barratunde, who

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Speaker 1: you'll meet in just a moment, but we do want

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Speaker 1: to give you a heads up, especially if you've got

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Speaker 1: kiddos in the crew today. Uh, there's some strong language

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Speaker 1: and we just decided it was better not to censor it.

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Speaker 1: Now on with the show. From UFOs to psychic powers

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Speaker 1: and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You

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Speaker 1: can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 1: name is Noel. They called me Ben. We're joined as

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Speaker 1: always with our super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly,

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Speaker 1: you are you. You are here and that makes this

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Speaker 1: the stuff they don't want you to know. There's a

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Speaker 1: big question that many people don't think about as often

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Speaker 1: as we should, which is simply put this, what does

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Speaker 1: it mean to be a citizen, whether you're talking about

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Speaker 1: being a member of a community, a citizen of a

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Speaker 1: specific nation, or on an international level, a citizen of

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Speaker 1: the world. And why do so many people so very

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Speaker 1: often argue that the rights and responsibilities of citizenship are imperiled.

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Speaker 1: What does it mean to be a citizen in two look?

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Speaker 1: What should we look forward to? What should we be

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Speaker 1: mindful of? These are challenging questions and some of these

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Speaker 1: have been explored for thousands of years, so we didn't

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Speaker 1: want to tackle them alone. We needed an expert. That

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Speaker 1: is why today we are thrilled to be joining with

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Speaker 1: the one and only award winning writer, comedian, philosopher I

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Speaker 1: would argue, and podcaster Barton day Thurston. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for coming on the show. Also, I know it's

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Speaker 1: kind of awkward to hear me list off that stuff

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Speaker 1: like while we're on the call. I gotta do it.

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Speaker 1: You gotta thank you, Thank you, Ben, Noel and Matt

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Speaker 1: for having me. Thanks for calling me a philosopher, unlocking

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Speaker 1: that degree that I paid a lot of money for

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Speaker 1: I got. I gotta ask you that that. There was

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Speaker 1: a clip from the new uh Norm McDonald thing where

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Speaker 1: he says he feels sorry for the real modern day

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Speaker 1: philosophers when people call comedians the philosophers of the modern day,

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Speaker 1: So what about the real philosophers of them? You're you're

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Speaker 1: both kind of that's pretty cool, kind of mean I

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Speaker 1: stopped at like thesis, I didn't not have right a thesis.

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Speaker 1: I didn't go to grad school and like pick apart

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Speaker 1: a single problem. But I'd like to I'd like to

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Speaker 1: ask questions. I like to pick up part answers that

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Speaker 1: were given. Um, I mean I think we share that. Actually,

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Speaker 1: the four of us and listening to your show, we've

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Speaker 1: got a lot of questions and uh, and I appreciate

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Speaker 1: the wrestling, the intellectual wrestling, so amateur philosopher proud to

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Speaker 1: say it. So yeah, we of um quick background for

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Speaker 1: everybody we connected in person number of months ago, I

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Speaker 1: can't remember how many at south By Southwest, and we

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Speaker 1: decided I think we all decided to become fast friends.

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Speaker 1: Because Matt Nolan, I survived the very difficult proposition of

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Speaker 1: speaking directly after you. I wish your opening act. It's

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Speaker 1: pretty honorary positions. It's pretty wrong, I think. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it was cool to see you out

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Speaker 1: there watching us too, and like you smiled a few times,

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Speaker 1: and that's how I knew we kind of did okay,

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Speaker 1: because we did did wrapped by your presentation and just

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Speaker 1: your whole vibe. It's like, I say, presentation, that's not

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Speaker 1: what I was. We watch you, you're just speaking, You're speaking.

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Speaker 1: Perform Yeah, but that's again, I think the performance is

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Speaker 1: almost a misnumber two. You have to wrap these things

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Speaker 1: in some performative elements. But I think what you do

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Speaker 1: is so you and I just love it, even your

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Speaker 1: ted Tucky. Obviously this is something that you wrote and

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Speaker 1: that has beats to it, but it just feels like

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing a person and I'm experiencing a person. I'm

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Speaker 1: just this is me complimenting you, basically thanking a big fan,

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Speaker 1: but I love compliments. I'm I'm a rare person that

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Speaker 1: really appreciates validation. So thank you so much. Well, well

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Speaker 1: let's let's get into it why you were there and

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Speaker 1: why we were talking and having those discussions. So you're

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Speaker 1: an author, You've written a ton of books. I am

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Speaker 1: probably most interested in keep Jerry Folwell away from my

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Speaker 1: Oreo cookies. Uh the slightly less Okay, that's little research.

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Speaker 1: I just gotta pause to acknowledge the real research because

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Speaker 1: when you said several books, I'm like, he must be

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Speaker 1: counting the self published ones that kink goes. Yes, oh, yes,

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Speaker 1: you've also you know you've you've shouted out congressional pages

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Speaker 1: even in the titles of your books. But but you're

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Speaker 1: a podcaster and you've you've been making podcast content for

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Speaker 1: a long time, whether it's as a guest or you know,

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Speaker 1: creating different shows. But the one we have you on

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Speaker 1: for today, the one that we really want to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about, is how whose Citizen? And at that

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Speaker 1: talk you were you were telling us about why you

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Speaker 1: made that show, how it came to fruition. I'd love

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Speaker 1: for you to just tell our audience like that story

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Speaker 1: just a bit. Yeah, hello audience, I'm Baritunda, and I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna tell you a story about anger, frustration and transformation

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Speaker 1: of those emotions into something healthier. It's a little thing

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Speaker 1: called social emotional learning that some parents are threatened to

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Speaker 1: buy because they want their kids to be worse than them.

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Speaker 1: But that's another chapter. So I was I was frustrated.

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Speaker 1: I was frustrating with the news, something I think you

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Speaker 1: can identify with. And in my telling and experience, the

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Speaker 1: news is designed to disempower us. We just hear a

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Speaker 1: lot of bad news. We hear problems, uh, we hear

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Speaker 1: about powerful people off in some distance. And the implication

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Speaker 1: is we the listener, the viewer, the watcher, we're powerless. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's all these problems, but there's there's like no one

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Speaker 1: doing anything about it, and the only thing we're asked

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Speaker 1: to do is to tune in at eleven for more despair.

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Speaker 1: And that that story didn't line up with Another part

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Speaker 1: of my experience was what my actual life, which is

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Speaker 1: filled with amazing people who are doing things, who are

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Speaker 1: doing things proactively, constructively, compassionately to try to make whatever

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Speaker 1: version of their world better. And I was like, why

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Speaker 1: can't we hear more about those people? Why can't we

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Speaker 1: be given something to do besides listening to more disaster

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Speaker 1: and occasionally vote, which is this empowering act, but quite

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Speaker 1: honestly also a little bit of uh, an abdication kind

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Speaker 1: of act. It's a it's a deferential act. Um, it's

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Speaker 1: an outsourcing act. Right, I'm I'm giving an elected person

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Speaker 1: in some of my power and hope that they act

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Speaker 1: on my behalf and I get to hold them accountable

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Speaker 1: a couple of years from now. Um, So voting super important.

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Speaker 1: I am never never going to say don't vote, but

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Speaker 1: there are many people who can't uh in in a

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Speaker 1: few retrograde states because they committed a felony. Uh in

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Speaker 1: most of the world because their children. Right, there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who exist in this world, who

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Speaker 1: contribute to this world, who can't vote in this world.

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Speaker 1: So there's gotta be other ways to exercise that power.

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Speaker 1: That's a that's a long set up to say. Um.

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Speaker 1: When faced with such a challenge and such frustration, I

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Speaker 1: did what anyone who wants to change the world would do,

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Speaker 1: and I'm inde a podcast, and I called it how

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Speaker 1: to Citizen to help us interpret citizen as a verb, uh,

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Speaker 1: not this um noun that we used to divide us

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Speaker 1: along these borderlines, but instead like, what would it look

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Speaker 1: like to to to to embody it, what would it

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Speaker 1: look like to live out as sort of active participation

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Speaker 1: in our self government beyond just the voting thing. And

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Speaker 1: so that question has begotten three seasons of episodes, about

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Speaker 1: fortysothing episodes, and we're gearing up of this moment for

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Speaker 1: our fourth season. Is he going to be on conspiracies? Oh? Sorry, No,

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Speaker 1: we have to we have to ask at some point.

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Speaker 1: But I think there's plenty of us to go around

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Speaker 1: for sure, and think we're about to kind of talk

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Speaker 1: about one in terms of like, uh, language and disfluency

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Speaker 1: and how words beget other words that are kind of

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Speaker 1: designed to make us think of ourselves differently. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's one of the questions. Yeah. One thing that really

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Speaker 1: struck me, Um, it was initially learning about how this

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Speaker 1: citizen is the that exploration of citizenship as a verb.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's it's no secret, um, at the risk

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Speaker 1: of sounding cynical, that there are many power structures in

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Speaker 1: the U s. It would kind of rather you not

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Speaker 1: vote depending on your demographic and spend a lot of time,

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Speaker 1: you know, making it boring, making it super inconvenient, difficult

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Speaker 1: and cryptic. Yes, yeah, exactly. So that gives us the

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Speaker 1: I think that empowers us to talk about the danger

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Speaker 1: of passivity. And I'm interested in learning what advantages we

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Speaker 1: discover when we reframe this concept of citizenship or citizen

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Speaker 1: real I should say as a verb, like what what

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Speaker 1: does that mean to citizen? So my wife and I

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Speaker 1: came up with the sort of belief system that powers

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Speaker 1: the answer to the question how to citizen? And this

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Speaker 1: was her insistence. She's like, before we go out here

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Speaker 1: telling the world, how does citizen, we should understand what

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Speaker 1: we think it means. And so we consulted the sacred texts,

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Speaker 1: We looked at the Constitution, Wikipedia, our inner souls and UH.

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Speaker 1: And we listened to our very early guests who are

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Speaker 1: kind of co founders of this project because they were

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Speaker 1: they were chosen especially because they've been wrestling with these questions.

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Speaker 1: They are philosophers and advocates UM and and active citizens.

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Speaker 1: One is a woman in Valerie Corps who has written

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Speaker 1: a beautiful book called Sin No Stranger and and her

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Speaker 1: shorthand as a stranger as a part of me I

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Speaker 1: do not yet know. And there's just a beautiful connectedness

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Speaker 1: and empathy to that which unlocks a whole different set

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Speaker 1: of relationships. Uh. And then the second guest was Eric

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Speaker 1: lew who founded something called Citizen University, So me, Elizabeth, Valerie.

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Speaker 1: Eric had a asynchronous um, you know, constitutional convention and

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Speaker 1: came up with these four pillars of what it actually

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Speaker 1: means the citizen. Number one, show up and participate. Just

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Speaker 1: assume that there's something to be done on that. You

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Speaker 1: have a role to play. Does an actress sport get

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Speaker 1: in the field? Um number two two Citizens to invest

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Speaker 1: in relationships with yourself, with others, with the planet around you.

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Speaker 1: We can't do the citizen thing alone. Otherwise we're just

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Speaker 1: a bunch of individual a Tommy units trying to do

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Speaker 1: everything for ourselves, which is extremist. Like I can't build

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Speaker 1: a house, I can't make a vaccine. I tried to

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Speaker 1: make a vaccine. It was a delicious whiskey cocktail, but

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Speaker 1: it did not stop the COVID. So I need other people.

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Speaker 1: I selfishly need other people for my own best interests

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Speaker 1: to be realized. And the planet is other, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's another part of me as well. And I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of us have been fed this story that

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Speaker 1: we're only here to dominate Earth and not to relate

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Speaker 1: to it and not to contribute to it and to

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Speaker 1: understand ourselves. I think a lot of us feel pressured

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Speaker 1: to almost like issue statements as if we were communications

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Speaker 1: directors on behalf of a major brand or nation state,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, I don't, I don't know it is

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Speaker 1: an acceptable response. But we have to create space and

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Speaker 1: time to get to know and to to check in

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Speaker 1: with how we feel. And a lot of us, especially

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Speaker 1: as men, are discouraged from connecting with our emotions in

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Speaker 1: any healthy way, and so it ends up in violence

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Speaker 1: quite often because that's acceptable for men. So it's not

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Speaker 1: just the vote, it's like how we are members of

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Speaker 1: society together. So I spent a lot of time on

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Speaker 1: this relationship. Point number three, two citizens to understand power.

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Speaker 1: And when you say have power structures, um, we have

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Speaker 1: power in many different forms. This was Eric lose great contribution.

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Speaker 1: We have power with our money, with our voice, with

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Speaker 1: our time, with who we spend time with, with where

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Speaker 1: we place our attention. A lot of us given a

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Speaker 1: lot of power to TikTok right now because it's very

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Speaker 1: good at taking our attention. Is that our choices at

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Speaker 1: serving us um. And then lastly we do all these

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Speaker 1: things two citizens to deploy all this the showing up

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Speaker 1: and participating, the investing in relationships. Understanding power. We don't

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Speaker 1: just do it for our individual selves. We do it

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Speaker 1: for as I like to think about our collective selves.

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Speaker 1: And there is there is an eye that's great eater

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Speaker 1: than just me, right, there is a wee that we

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Speaker 1: are also a part of. And if we're looking out

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Speaker 1: for each other and we recognize our interdependence, then when

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Speaker 1: we're considering others, we're also considering ourselves if we set

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Speaker 1: things up in a healthy way. And I think in

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Speaker 1: our country, in particular in the US, we've over indexed

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Speaker 1: on the the the rugged individualism, and so we've created

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Speaker 1: this world where we can't trust anyone. It's like deep throws,

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Speaker 1: trust no one. And so if you don't trust anyone, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course you buy thirty guns, and you put the

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Speaker 1: biggest wall around your house, and you you school your

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Speaker 1: own kids and your own home, you have your own

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Speaker 1: basketball court. You you recreate a whole society for one

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Speaker 1: and that is very inefficient and less joyful. And I

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Speaker 1: think what you get out of this this is, you know,

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Speaker 1: you partly asked, like what happens when? What is What

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Speaker 1: do we get from? What do we feel? What does

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Speaker 1: it feel like when we're citizening in these ways? We

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Speaker 1: feel less alone, we feel more supported, we feel more hint,

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Speaker 1: we feel more secure. Security doesn't just come from my

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Speaker 1: solo ability to use gun food like John Wick. You know,

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Speaker 1: it comes from trusting the people around me and that

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Speaker 1: they'll look out when I'm asleep. And that is a

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Speaker 1: level of security that's kind of the whole point of

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Speaker 1: self government and people power. So it's just it's like

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Speaker 1: the whole thing, the whole The show nailed it, no doubt,

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Speaker 1: the whole individualistic angle. Like is interesting to me because

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Speaker 1: a term that always comes to mind when I think

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Speaker 1: of the word citizen is probably pretty dated at this point,

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Speaker 1: but I think there's a modern analog of it is

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Speaker 1: the idea of a citizens arrest. You know, you see

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Speaker 1: it in like TV shows like cops, shows like I'm

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Speaker 1: exercising my right and doing a citizen's arrest on you criminal,

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Speaker 1: But now it's kind of like the people doing citizens

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Speaker 1: arrests are like Karen's and and casual racists, and oftentimes

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Speaker 1: it involves killing the person that you're citizen arresting because

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Speaker 1: they threaten you because they look different than you, or

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Speaker 1: that you think they're up to no good, when in

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Speaker 1: fact they're just living their lives and maybe you're even

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Speaker 1: you've moved into their neighborhood and now they're a threat

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Speaker 1: to you. Um, but you're just not used to seeing

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Speaker 1: somebody it looks like them, or doing stuff that that

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Speaker 1: they're doing that it absolutely poses no threat to you.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about that a little bit? It was

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Speaker 1: it was in your Ted talk you expressed them withly

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Speaker 1: and just this idea of like the modern day citizens

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Speaker 1: arrests and what that means. That's a great interpretation. Man,

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Speaker 1: I've never heard anybody put it that way, and I

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Speaker 1: hadn't thought of it myself, So thank you. That's the

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Speaker 1: beauty of like putting anything in the world. Other people

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Speaker 1: pick it up and they remix it, and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's a dope addition to the original traffic okay, um, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Many people feel empowered, uh to impose, you know, their

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Speaker 1: perspective on others. Many people are empowered to have their

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Speaker 1: fears restrict other folks, and so let me take it

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Speaker 1: out the abstract world. White people in the United States

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Speaker 1: have been trained to process their fear of blackness through

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Speaker 1: the state through the apparatus of policing. Policing one of

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Speaker 1: its original intentions was as slave catching. I remember when

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Speaker 1: I found that out, it was just a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, this is the wokest Black lives matterist fact

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Speaker 1: I have ever heard. Who came up with this? Uh mo, Mia,

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Speaker 1: you know where did this come from? And it came

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Speaker 1: from like the National Museum of Policing, you know, in Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. Like they acknowledge it on their own website,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, damn, that's that's really deep. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so there's a reflex, there's there's an overused muscle

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Speaker 1: when something, as you put it, feels threatening, other doesn't belong.

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Speaker 1: We don't engage we broadly. You know, rich people, white people,

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Speaker 1: like those who have some sense of bubble or security.

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Speaker 1: But I'm talking in a racial context here. So white

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Speaker 1: people have been trained you don't say hello. You feel

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Speaker 1: a certain type of way, you feel threatened because media

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Speaker 1: has trained you that these people are monsters and they're

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Speaker 1: probably gonna slit your throat and you know, take your

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Speaker 1: child from you, burn your house down, like all kinds

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Speaker 1: of terrible things gonna happen. So it's best to just

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Speaker 1: call an armed person to the scene instead, uh, Instead

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Speaker 1: of saying like, hey, what are you doing here? Can

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Speaker 1: I help you? How are you? It would be like

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Speaker 1: a really dope response to just seeing a person you've

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Speaker 1: never seen before. Um. But a lot of folks don't

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Speaker 1: have practice. They have the other muscle, the fear muscle.

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Speaker 1: So I think the citizens arrest in that sense that

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Speaker 1: the calling the cops on the unfamiliar is a logical

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Speaker 1: extension of a system that has, you know, dehumanized so

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Speaker 1: many of us and then prevented others from connecting to

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Speaker 1: their own humanity as well, because it's actually I'm not

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Speaker 1: just the dehumanized. And in the story, like if your

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Speaker 1: first response to a stranger is I must call an

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Speaker 1: armed agent of the state to the scene to deal

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Speaker 1: with them, then I would contend you've lost some of

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Speaker 1: your humanity too. We're gonna pause just for a moment

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Speaker 1: to hear a word from our sponsor and we'll be

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Speaker 1: back with more. And we've returned. Uh, just had a thought,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna try and pieces together. I got you, I

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Speaker 1: got you. So I'm imagining the same I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: imagine like one person, right if so, I think about

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Speaker 1: an example or an allegory, Uh, the person who was

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Speaker 1: empowered by the state historically to fear the other in

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Speaker 1: that way in this case blackness. Um, it feels like

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Speaker 1: in our modern age of technology of interconnectedness through a computer,

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Speaker 1: that person has lost their faith in the power structures

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Speaker 1: that empowered them initially to feel that way. So it's

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Speaker 1: as if, um, I'm i'm I'm I'm seeing this vision

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Speaker 1: of somebody who um, you know, has so much fear

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Speaker 1: in their life, as you're talking about building castles around

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Speaker 1: them to try and protect themselves and their family from

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Speaker 1: whatever it is that threatens them, is now also afraid

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Speaker 1: of the economic and governmental structures that like create their power.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't know what I'm saying. I'm just

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Speaker 1: what I get it too. And I think again, y'all

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Speaker 1: are bringing some new flavors to the recipe. This is exciting.

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Speaker 1: You're reminding me of a scene out of the movie

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Speaker 1: Judas and the Black Messiah, which is about chamman Fred

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Speaker 1: Hampton and the Black Panther Party and Chicago, and he

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Speaker 1: has the scene where he's, you know, he's been pulling

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Speaker 1: together this rainbow coalition before Jesse Jackson came on the

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Speaker 1: scene with that ton of of black panthers, of of

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Speaker 1: Puerto Rican activists, uh, and of poor white folks. And

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Speaker 1: he rolls up in this gathering of I think it's

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Speaker 1: called the Young Patriots, but I don't hold me to it.

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Speaker 1: People should look it up, do your own research, but

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Speaker 1: they just look it up. And then he gets up there,

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Speaker 1: he starts giving a speech to you know, these very

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Speaker 1: young racists, white races and He's like, what if the

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Speaker 1: slaves and the poor white folks that got together and

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Speaker 1: slip the masses through. Uh, you know, your your schools

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Speaker 1: are shitty as our schools. The cops disrespect you as

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Speaker 1: much as they disrespect us, but they got you thinking

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Speaker 1: that you're one of them. And so what you've described

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Speaker 1: reminds me of that speech Rosey, that scene, because you've

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Speaker 1: got an apparatus that was set up explicitly to benefit

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Speaker 1: certain folks at most at the top of that list, landowning.

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Speaker 1: Why you know, Christian Protestant men and more people got

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Speaker 1: included into that club. Over time, white women got included more,

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Speaker 1: other immigrant white groups that were considered animals got elevated

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Speaker 1: to human and then to white um. And so we

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Speaker 1: set up all these legal and economic structures like you

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Speaker 1: can buy a house, you can't buy a house um,

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Speaker 1: and you serve in this way, and you don't serve

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Speaker 1: in this way, and you get this type of education,

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Speaker 1: and you live near the pollution. And the problem with

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Speaker 1: that system is that it didn't really benefit a lot

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Speaker 1: of those white people either. It was a nice divide

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Speaker 1: and conquered game um that benefited those at the very

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Speaker 1: top even more and folks are rightly angry, you know.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's let's get more specific this. Let's give a

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Speaker 1: caricature of just a poor white man who's not rich,

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Speaker 1: never felt privileged day in his life, working class. The

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Speaker 1: system is not really working that great. No opioids, suicide

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Speaker 1: rates are up for this group of people. The wealth

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Speaker 1: and equality, no good jobs. But that guy's only been

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Speaker 1: told well, you're better than these motherfucker's, and and and

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Speaker 1: and before or he's even encouraged to think he's given

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Speaker 1: an answer. It's the Muslims, it's the Mexicans, it's the

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Speaker 1: trans kids. It's the black guy in Chicago gang banging.

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Speaker 1: It's Obama, it's George Sorross, it's the bankers. Like it's

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Speaker 1: a whole story, is prepackaged and shipped, ready to go.

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Speaker 1: It's like fast food that comes to your house, right

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Speaker 1: into your ears. Right. Yes, his anger is so justified.

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Speaker 1: He has been bamboozled, he's been shook, he's been hoodwinked.

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Speaker 1: But he's got it twisted, you know. And and he's

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Speaker 1: been made to victimize even as he's being victimized, and

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Speaker 1: and to turn on right. It's just that's that well,

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Speaker 1: practiced muscle. It's probably these black people, it's probably these monkeys,

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Speaker 1: it's probably these immigrants. That is, um, it's a very

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Speaker 1: effective rategy for keeping people dis empowered, and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: have to be the only way. Well Lyndon Johnson, you know,

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Speaker 1: uh completely, you know went on record. We would later

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Speaker 1: find saying the same, like very much the same thing,

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Speaker 1: uh for albeit for his own Machabellian purposes, right. But

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Speaker 1: the thing that I think can help in those sorts

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Speaker 1: of explorations something to let me make sure I'm saying

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Speaker 1: this correctly. I'm not gonna beat I'm gonna keep Paul

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Speaker 1: are keeping it in. I'm gonna figure this out. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So we also see I think this, uh, this really

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Speaker 1: interesting tendency that I wasn't aware of for many years,

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Speaker 1: which was in the halls of government, people started like

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Speaker 1: elected representatives who in theory represent you, Like, they started

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Speaker 1: using the word consumer instead of citizen, like in place

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Speaker 1: of that. And it was one of these moments where

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Speaker 1: you look around and you think, am I the only

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Speaker 1: one who gets it? It's like when I figured out

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Speaker 1: the main ingredient and soy sauce is soy, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, I thought that was just the name

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Speaker 1: because I don't really think about it and this like,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you have this platform, pin So I

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Speaker 1: do that every every week I get one of those

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Speaker 1: obvious like to everyone else except me, Oh that's my

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Speaker 1: wife was like, I thought you were smart man. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: I think. But that's the other thing in in what

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Speaker 1: I love about what you're saying about a greater I

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Speaker 1: called a wee is the idea that in the ways

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Speaker 1: that matter, people are very much in the same boat.

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Speaker 1: And there is you know, we go back and forth

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Speaker 1: on this show, uh, questioning the amount of intention behind

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Speaker 1: things like um feeding people prepackaged fear responses. You know,

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Speaker 1: is this something that is like is there really some

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Speaker 1: shadowy cabal in a lobby lobbying firm in Washington going

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Speaker 1: And then they'll think of Pelosi, like to what do

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Speaker 1: the actual like Senator Palpatine, you know, yeah, yeah, like

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Speaker 1: with the Marty Burns fingers and everything like this. The

426
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: big question that I know a lot of our listeners

427
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: constantly asked themselves as well, is how much of these

428
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: sorts of larger like macro situations, how much are they

429
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: by design? And if so, to what degree. Yeah, So

430
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: so I stumbled into the meeting one day. It was

431
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: a guy named Jerry, a guy named Bob. They had

432
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: these big cigars. They were dividing up land, they were

433
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: ranking the races, they were determining what currencies we're going

434
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: to go up the next week. And uh, I just

435
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: I didn't want to get to aised. I just I've

436
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,959
Speaker 1: moved on to the next room, which is a nice

437
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: little Pokemon meeting. Um, these people do there. There is

438
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 1: intention and and there is culture. Um. I'm remembering one

439
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: other thought on the previous point we were discussing. When

440
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: I think about the Charlottesville tiki torch valley, and you

441
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: will not replace us, and Jews will not replace us,

442
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: and and these men for whom this whole system was designed,

443
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: like the system is rigged against me. There there's an

444
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: absurdity there, um and and I think it's the absurdity

445
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: of the entitled actually approaching a fairer marketplace and not

446
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: knowing what to do with themselves because it feels tilted

447
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: against them when you actually have to put forth a

448
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: little more effort. Um. I want those guys to be

449
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: liberated from that mindset. You know, it's it's is to

450
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: buy so many guns for fear of a government that's

451
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 1: still structured to advantage you. That's a your your mind

452
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: super twisted on that. It's really like it's literally your

453
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: government still your but both sides are like rigging the

454
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: game against you. Like I don't know, I don't want

455
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: to send to whack job. I just mean, it's just

456
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: it's an umbrella, man, and they're all in it for

457
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: goals and ends that are beyond our pay grade and

458
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 1: that we will never benefit from or or or you know,

459
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: you know, be able to revel in no matter who

460
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 1: you are, no matter how white you are, whatever, Like

461
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: it's just not a thing. And like I'm again to

462
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 1: your point. I'm not saying don't vote is the best

463
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: we've got, but dan, if I don't feel so disempowered

464
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: no matter where, there's a whole big ra ra when

465
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: you have like an Obama victory or you know, to

466
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: a much lesser degree of Biden victory, or whatever side

467
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: of the fence you're on. But that's all just kind

468
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: of smoking mirrors too. It's like, oh, here's a little

469
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: shot of dopamine and then let's get right back to

470
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: the status quo. Where I mean, yeah, Obama's election and

471
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: for me was like yay, Biden's election was like who

472
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: totally different, totally different exclamation. Um. I think to the

473
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: system design perspective. UM, I don't subscribe to Illuminati level

474
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: explanations for why things are the waere they are. I

475
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: think incentives explain a lot. Um. I think culture can

476
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: get established, and we can as humans, which is very

477
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: capable of creating perverse culture that doesn't really serve most

478
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: of us, but it rewards enough of us that we

479
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: stay in it, and and most of us don't like

480
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: any kind of change. Most of us are very risk

481
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: averse people. So over decades and centuries, we end up

482
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: in in the absurd situation of like, oh, we're in

483
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: the wealthiest country in the world and also like the

484
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: largest number of unhoused people, in the largest prison population,

485
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: and the largest poverty rate and the largest maternal mortality rate.

486
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: We clearly quantifiably have the resources to take care of

487
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: more of us, but we've got this story of like, well,

488
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: if you're poorer, then you're also a bad person, you're

489
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: immoral in some way. If you're rich, you clearly earned

490
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: it and worked hard. It's not because we set up

491
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: the tax code to advantage you and homeowners, which is

492
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: only available to wealthier people. It's because you're just more

493
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: worthy as a person. And it's not just rich people

494
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: who accept that, it's poor people too, And so poor

495
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: people out here like, man, what did I do wrong?

496
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: I'm not. I guess I gotta pray harder, you know,

497
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: and rich people like I guess I'm just that great,

498
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: you know. I just I must be so amazingly great

499
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: that I should pay less in taxes on a percentage

500
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: basis than the poor person. That's my spiritual reward, my

501
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: fiscal reward from my quality spirit. And I don't think

502
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: a teeny tiny committee decided all these little things. But

503
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: I think we concentrated enough decision making authority and enough resources,

504
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: and we only ask the people winning from those resources

505
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: to set the rules for themselves, which I would do.

506
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: Like if if I'm five years old and you say

507
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: make your dietary rules, I'm like ice cream, ice cream,

508
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: ice cream, all the freaking ice cream. What you're not

509
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: gonna get someone like voluntarily broccoli, you know, it's just

510
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: like it can't compete with ice cream. And so we

511
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: we we're supposed to have checks and balances. We're supposed

512
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: to have real representation. But even that system has also

513
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: been captured, you know, by folks for whom the system

514
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: is already disproportionately working. So it excuse even further, and

515
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: we end up, you know, in this very unhealthy place.

516
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: We're in a super it's like the calmest way I

517
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: could describe this the embers of civil divorce slash civil war.

518
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: We're in now. It's very unhealthy and and it's just

519
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: getting more exaggerated. Okay, hold up one second, let's take

520
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: a quick pause. We're gonna hear a word from responsor

521
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: than we back with more of this conversation with barretton

522
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: Day Thurston. And we've returned, let's get back into it.

523
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: I'm thinking back to two thousand four, Baritone Day, when

524
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: you were writing better than Crying, and you know, you're

525
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,959
Speaker 1: talking about President Cheney excuse me, Vice President Cheney, and

526
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: that purposeful about just thinking about the problems that we

527
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: were facing at the time. You're tackling them with comedy,

528
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: and like, like the title says, it's better than crying,

529
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: we can at least poke fun at the absurdity that's

530
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: occurring right now the people that we've elected to represent us.

531
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering in your mind as you've watched

532
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: politics evolve in our interconnectedness through social media and the

533
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 1: way we can all comment now and we can all

534
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: get on Twitter and say something, Um, how has the

535
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: discourse evolved on the way we think? I know it's

536
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: it's hard, yeah speak for the whole internet bear Tonday,

537
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: But I mean, what have you observed? How have you

538
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: observed a discourse on politics change throughout those years since

539
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: two I'm a long time UM user and practitioner of

540
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: the technological arts. I mean, I've been on life since

541
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: ninety three ish with dial upe bulletin boards. My mother

542
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: was a computer programmer. I was born way back in

543
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: seventy seven, and I've had a computer in my house

544
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: since maybe six years old, which was super rare for

545
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: anyone of any means, any religion, any race, anywhere in

546
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: the world. So I'm in a one percent of my

547
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: own just that stat alone. And so I mostly was like, Yeah,

548
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: technology is awesome, Like it's empowering and everybody has a voice,

549
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: and that's this beautiful thing. We're all connected, um, and

550
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: it's still a beautiful thing. There's so much good. There

551
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: are a lot of people who find a community that

552
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: were previously alone. But it's not just uh sort of

553
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: subjugated minority ease. It's not just previously um marginalized folks.

554
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: It's also Nazis. Like Nazis used to have to work

555
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: a lot harder to find other Nazis. You have to

556
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: like create a print zine and put ads in like

557
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: a newspaper classified section with a p O box, and

558
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: someone have to mill you a check, and you have

559
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: to meet up at like the roadside stand at an

560
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: odd hour. You have to try hard. And now the

561
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: algorithms find you and validate you. And so the discourse

562
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: isn't just among people, it's among machines, intermingled with people

563
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: who have far less of a sense of morality. They're

564
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: optimizing for a different outcome. They're optimizing for popularity, they're

565
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: optimizing for time on site and time on screen and engagement,

566
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: these very neutral terms, quantifiably neutral, but morally very skewed. UM.

567
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: And And I think that in that behavior where everybody

568
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: gets this right to like address the whole world instantly,

569
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 1: UM without a sense of responsibility for that right, has

570
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: infected I r LL. Now, so we have members of

571
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: Congress from multiple party perspectives performing like Tiktoker's on the

572
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: floor of Congress Georgia. You know, yeah, watch a political

573
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: ad in Georgia. I had a friend visiting from l

574
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: A and there were these political ads with like anti

575
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: trans like that, you know, the gays are infecting the

576
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: minds of our Do they just say that on TV?

577
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: It's insane. So the comments section is in our legislative

578
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: bodies and like the worst parts of the comments section.

579
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: But it comes back to because I want to I

580
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: can do a real good diagnosis like anybody else. I'd

581
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: like to get my prescriptive head on for a sec

582
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: because I set up this podcast how does This? And

583
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: dot com because I was tired of just like it

584
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 1: it's all bad, and so yeah, we the internet has

585
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: helped um corrode all of our institutions and helped reveal

586
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 1: them for for what they were doing and what they

587
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: were not doing that they said they were doing. And

588
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: so our trust and everything is lower than it's ever been.

589
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: Like every like the NBA, the church, the state, the banks,

590
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: like anything with the in front of it. We're like,

591
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: I'm not messing with that anymore. You know. It's just

592
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: like I got I do my own research. But we

593
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: set our internet up in a particular way, and we

594
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: use the word community when we did it, but what

595
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: we were really setting up were commercial establishments, were malls.

596
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: We set up a place for business and we called

597
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: it a public square. And we had a guest on

598
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: our podcast, Eli Paris er Um in this most recent season,

599
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: and it's like, what if everywhere you and a acted

600
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: with anyone it was a mall. What if you went

601
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: to church inside the mall. What if your dates for

602
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: all at the mall. What if your gym was at

603
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: the mall. What if you're where you took your kids

604
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: to learn how to walk? What's at the mall? That's

605
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: what Facebook is, That's what Twitter is. We're asking them

606
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: to be all this other stuff when they're the mall

607
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: and and we've just thrown people in called them a community,

608
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: but it's not it. That's not any community that I'm

609
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,439
Speaker 1: a part of for real. I know, to people, there's

610
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: a sense of like we're here for a shared reason,

611
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: whether it's pickleball or justice, you know, like, and there's expectations,

612
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: there's norms, there's a sense of like this is out

613
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: of line. We don't do that here. And there's some

614
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: kind of warm up before I have like a full

615
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: membership experience. There's there's an unofficial probationary period where the

616
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: kids who are already at the school show the new

617
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: kids what's up. You don't give the new kid at

618
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: a new school the microphone at a symbol and say

619
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 1: say whatever you want about anybody right now. It's free speech.

620
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: Free speech, that's insane, Like we have free speech, but

621
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 1: we restrain ourselves out of a sense of shared commitment,

622
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: out of a sense of responsibility and belonging and and

623
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: what we want to experience. I don't just want to

624
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: hear people yelling what's on their minds all the time.

625
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: But that's what Twitter is that in the damn community,

626
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: so we can build community. And all of these sites

627
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 1: have community terms and they're not it's just gatherings of people,

628
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: it's audiences. It's they're mining us literally in our data.

629
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: But it's not the kind of rules and norms that

630
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: you're talking about. And it's like these are the kind

631
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: of rules they had just over time to make it

632
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: less not sified, maybe, but it's still too little, too

633
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: late on the back end, you know, they weren't no

634
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: one who understood how how people enjoy gathering was involved

635
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: in setting up these digital gathering spaces. For the most part,

636
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 1: there are others, you know, we had a guest on

637
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: from the from Bahrain, little teeny TEENI Middle Eastern nation.

638
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: She set up this on social media network for lgbt

639
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: Q plus people in the Middle East. So by some

640
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: definitions in those countries, she's she set up a network

641
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: for criminals, for people who are punished violently for being

642
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 1: who they are. So she had to be very cautious

643
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: and careful how she set this up. And they made

644
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: trolling so difficult because on day one, you don't just

645
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: get the keys to the whole site. You gotta go

646
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: on board. You gotta like just you're in read only

647
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: mode for like seven days. Then you get to unlock

648
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: these different sections of the site. Then you get the

649
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: ability to tag somebody else in a message. And but

650
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: you've got to behave a certain way you you unlock

651
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 1: the privileges like any healthy environment we've all been a

652
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: part of. So nine months later you have pretended to

653
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: be a good person and now you want to start

654
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: doxing someone like that doesn't That doesn't happen most people.

655
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: Most trolls are lazy, just like most stammers, like you

656
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: do it because it's cheap and easy. I can send

657
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: a death threat to every member of Congress in the

658
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: next thirty seconds. Why is it so easy? Tax that ship? Right,

659
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 1: That's such an interesting concept because you're essentially providing exposure

660
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: therapy to somebody who may have like homophobic views and

661
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: then immersing them in that community. That's really that's great impisodes.

662
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: I think that is um. Her name is Estra al Shaffi.

663
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: It's E. S R. A. And it's in the season three.

664
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 1: I don't know the episode number, and I can't think

665
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 1: of the title of the second. It's something about scale,

666
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: like scale is bullshit, but we we all you know,

667
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: can benefit from that. And I am very guilty of

668
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: just having judgments about people who I don't experienced with.

669
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 1: And I show up with my talking points and I

670
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: grab whatever the latest factory that the internet gave me,

671
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm informed, here's my opinion. And I

672
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: don't start with a question. I start with the imposition

673
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: of an answer. And that's not good for me either.

674
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: It's not like I'm just saying, like conservative right wing

675
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: people are uniquely wrong. We are all wrong, but we

676
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 1: have created tools where we're made to feel righteous, uh

677
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: as well as right and then justified in that right

678
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: nous as really not healthy and it's exhausting. It's actually

679
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 1: exhausting to get angry about everything all the time. I think,

680
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm ranting. You're in You're in the right place, sir,

681
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: and you want to shout out that has moved slow

682
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 1: and fixed things. Season three, episodes four, thank you for

683
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: suing what I was too lazy to do. We're a community.

684
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know what's a podcast episode? Is

685
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: there any where I could figure out who was on

686
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: my show to I like, I mean the idea though,

687
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 1: of funk, it's brilliant, you know, the idea of um

688
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: earning trust, right, that's another big part of a community.

689
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: I love the I love the school analogy. I love

690
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: the idea of this great mall because you know, whenever

691
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: we hear people talking um often you know, like tune

692
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 1: in at the six o'clock news for more bad shit. Uh,

693
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: as you said, they there's this notion that the private

694
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: for profit entities, the metas the um you know, the Twitters, etcetera,

695
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: should have some sort of moral compass. And that's if

696
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 1: there is a definition of morality for a large for

697
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,919
Speaker 1: profit entity, It's morality is profit year over year. That's

698
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: kind of the closest that gets to so. But the

699
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: question then comes, how can one how how can one

700
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: attempt two build an actual community in this mall that's

701
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: going to be stuck in my head? Got to be

702
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: from scratch. You can't legislate, you know, these other they're

703
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: not selling this product that you're describing, and and it

704
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense for them to sell it because you

705
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: you talked about scale. You can't scale this with Facebook.

706
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: It's too much work. People don't want to work something.

707
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 1: If your goal is to generate as much attention as possible,

708
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: you'll do one thing. If your goal is to create

709
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: as much of a sense of belonging and community as possible,

710
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: you'll do another thing. Um And a lot of the

711
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: way our Internet was built its financed by a very

712
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: small group of people who wanted one thing, to get

713
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: rich as fast as possible. They were rich people who

714
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: wanted to get ten times richer they were. There were

715
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: millionaires who wanted to be billionaires, and that's cool, like

716
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: I want to make more money than I make, um,

717
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 1: But they took that desire and used it to design

718
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: our de facto public space, and that's not a choice

719
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: we should have to go along with. We should have

720
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: digital public spaces, is what what you know Eli and

721
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 1: his organization New Public's perspective is. And I like that. Um,

722
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: I think the I don't know, I think too many things.

723
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: I am there there is a limit to even my

724
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: own sense of faith and like our ability to do

725
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: the self governing thing so that we all have a

726
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: good and positive experience. And it was something one of

727
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 1: you said a little while back, just about the vote,

728
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, I know, oh you know. You

729
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: were like, I don't want to knock voting, but I

730
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 1: don't know how effective it is. Right. I can see

731
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: you like struck and we have like the numbers are in.

732
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 1: Our representatives don't represent us, you know, their their votes

733
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: aligned more with their donors than with their constituents. We

734
00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: also can see when of US wants something like universal

735
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 1: background checks on firearms sales, we still don't get it

736
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 1: because fifty people refuse to do their jobs. That's not working.

737
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: That's broken. We see the electoral college, you know, giving

738
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,760
Speaker 1: a ton of influence two states with far fewer people,

739
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 1: the same states that held slaves, which was partly why

740
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: it was designed that way. So you go back to

741
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 1: system design. There is a great vast conspiracy, but it's

742
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: out in the open. You know, it's in It's in

743
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: the Constitution in certain ways, and so you don't need

744
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: to go as far as like George Soros to arrive

745
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: at some of that stuff. You can go to our

746
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: phone founding fathers um and be like, oh, they they

747
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: did that. Are we gonna fix it? They gave us

748
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: an amendable constitution to are we gonna change it. We're

749
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: gonna make equal rights amendment as well for women. Maybe.

750
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: So I don't know this stuff, Um. At this very moment,

751
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: I'm a bit on the knife's edge of I'm a

752
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: hopeful self. I believe in we the people, and I'm

753
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,439
Speaker 1: just like, what the fuck? What is going? Like? Where

754
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: do we draw the line at these you know, whether

755
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: it's the shootings or the row roll back, the Buffalo

756
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: or the Vivaldi or by the time you hear this

757
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: insert new tragedy, it's a template now and and that is,

758
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: um are the inability and unwillingness of our government to

759
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: actually represent the will of the people on the healthy

760
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: interests of the people. It is a failure and we

761
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: we have to we have to fix that or else

762
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: they'll just keep failing. And so I'm looking for answers myself.

763
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: I have a few ideas, but I have nothing like

764
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: a here's what we do. It's weirdly, Richard, because I

765
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: was talking to uh, to some of my associates who

766
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: are not based in the US, and I think there's

767
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: there's a danger in human psychology. It can be beautiful,

768
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 1: but it's dangerous how quickly the strangest things and the

769
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: most unclean things become normalized. Right, Like it's just always

770
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: been that way. Talking to talking to somebody from you know,

771
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: South America, talking to somebody from you know, the Middle

772
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,919
Speaker 1: East or Australia or something you to, and they will

773
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: ask about politics, about the vote, right, you say, Well,

774
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: people are very sticker motivated for the most part. So

775
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: about every four years we get in line because we

776
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: want to have a sticker to post on social media. Uh,

777
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: and we you know, it's voting. So there's like not really, um,

778
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: not really bribery, and they're like, well, okay, what what

779
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: do you have? Then? Like what we call it lobbying

780
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: because those those votes are you just can't say the

781
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: B word, but you can still do the game. And

782
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: so it's tough with money. Uh, you know, it gets

783
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 1: reduced down to it's like thought terminating cliche of money

784
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 1: and politics until people get bored terminating cliche. Not our invention.

785
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 1: But I think it works, Um, so what like that's

786
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: one of the that's one of the big questions in

787
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: my mind is the you know, people are incredibly intelligent

788
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: for the most part. People are extraordinarily intelligent and can

789
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: smell bullshit about a kilometer away, right if they really

790
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: think about it. But I I think as a result

791
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: of that, it's it is highly unlikely that anybody who

792
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 1: really pays attention to what a system is supposed to

793
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: be in theory, right, and it's aspirational form versus what

794
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 1: we see in practice. Do when you are talking with

795
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: with these great minds on how to citizen do you

796
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: do you find yourself in your guests kind of like

797
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 1: I'm word salady already, I'm falling into a cycle of

798
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: like this sucks, but then also this sucks, and then

799
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: also I'll keep going, Um, do you feel like do

800
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: you feel like how to citizen? Um, whether it's you

801
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: all or guests arrive at at concrete. You know these

802
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: are things to do. Now, I know that's a big

803
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: part of it. Yes, yes they do. It is a setup. Um.

804
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: The short answer, which I've been terrible at during this time,

805
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: is yes. Uh. We we created a template ourselves to

806
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: make sure to put action in every episode, and so

807
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: we give people kind of three ways to approach whatever

808
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: the topic is. And the first is like a personal reflection.

809
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: I think of it as like single player mode. You

810
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: can do this by yourself, you don't need anybody else. Uh.

811
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: The other is is be informed and so you like,

812
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: go learn something, go get out of here a little more.

813
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: And then the third is publicly participate and that's the multiplayer. Uh.

814
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 1: It's a real time mode because it takes all three levels. Um.

815
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: We reflecting as I think really important. I mentioned it earlier,

816
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: but I think a lot of us just skip that stage.

817
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: And so we just have all these emotions and they

818
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: show up at a school board meeting screaming at teachers

819
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 1: for being groomers. Right, that's just an emotional response, like

820
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: reading off or prompter without just thinking like do I

821
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 1: feel like this is this how I want to show

822
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: up in my community right now? Is this the image?

823
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: Is this the lasting image I want my neighbors to

824
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: have of me with like a pitchfork, screaming at the

825
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: school board for grooming kids, for just like trying to

826
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: have a book on the shelf that has two moms

827
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: in it. But we don't pause there, like we're just

828
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: so quick to act. So I think again, the same

829
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: with the like you know, investing in relationship with yourself.

830
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: So every episode, we've got sets of actions. We've got

831
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: over a hundred things that people can do. We have

832
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: how does citizen dot com with like a catalog of action?

833
00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 1: And there is salvation, Uh, there is m some satisfaction

834
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: in the local And I think a lot of us,

835
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: you know, we were we have nationalized our sense of

836
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: citizenship and the conversation about it. We just think of

837
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: like America and the country. It's like, well that's a construct.

838
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: You know if we think about like our neighborhood, maybe

839
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: we think about our city, but even a lot of

840
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: us live in massive cities that are beyond human scale.

841
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 1: Are we looking out for are we connected with the

842
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: people right around us? Are we showing up? Do we

843
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 1: even know where the nearest elementary school is? Are we

844
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: volunteering there? Do we have a relationship there? I'm asked

845
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 1: these are question I really asked myself right now, like

846
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 1: I don't have kids, but there are many schools right around.

847
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 1: I joined the school walkout just last week. It wasn't

848
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: a plan. I was so angry. I've been crying all

849
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 1: weeks in between meetings and flights. And I went for

850
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: a walk a very aggressive height to just try to

851
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: wet out some of his anger. And I took a

852
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 1: turn that wasn't anticipated when I don't usually take, and

853
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 1: I heard these chanting now jos Dad, no peace, now,

854
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: Joss Dad, now peace, and the very young voices. I

855
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: see these kids coming down the street and they've got

856
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: their signs and they're like, take our guns, not our children,

857
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,760
Speaker 1: take our guns, not our children. And I started crying.

858
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,399
Speaker 1: I'm like just chanting with them, so proud of you.

859
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry we failed you. And I walked like

860
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes with them, and people are hawking and they're cheering,

861
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 1: and you can just see their raw emotion. Like high

862
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: school is supposed to be torture, but not like this. Right,

863
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: it's supposed to suck and hurt, but not like this.

864
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be for for puberty and hormones and

865
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: acne and first everything's first loves and first kisses, not

866
00:51:55,640 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: first shootings. You know so, but but I, you know,

867
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: as much as I was ranting and like consuming and

868
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: downloading and tweeting, I felt the best when I was

869
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: physically next to people who were even closer to this challenge.

870
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: And I didn't lead the march, I didn't organize ship.

871
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 1: I was trying to get coffee, but I paid attention

872
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: and I joined in for like fifteen twenty minutes, and

873
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: I put them on ig Live and interviewed a few

874
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: of them are trying to amplify their thing, and they

875
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: were happy to have some support. And I had a

876
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: healthy outlet for my rage for a moment. And I

877
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: think all of us need to to double down on that,

878
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: you know, find something close to us that we can

879
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 1: really sink our teeth into, put wrap our arms around.

880
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: There's no shortage of challenges, but there's also no shortage

881
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 1: of people approaching those challenges. You know, with a spirit

882
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 1: of citizen ng Um. So I want us all to

883
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: I'm trying to. I'm selling myself right now on my

884
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 1: own belief system because it's been hard. It's been a

885
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: hard couple of weeks. Well, I was going to thank

886
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 1: you specifically for making, uh your podcast descriptions so robust,

887
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: Like you put some of those actions that you can

888
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: take in the podcast description, so as you're listening, you

889
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 1: can read some of those actions and literally take notes.

890
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 1: You should be taking notes when you listen to how

891
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 1: to Citizen, by the way, Uh, thanks for that. Yeah.

892
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: And and the website, we have full transcripts. You know,

893
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 1: we want people to I want to make it accessible.

894
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: Search the site, like look for your thing. We had

895
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: a really dope episode, bonus episode about homelessness, and like

896
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: there are things we know that work, and a lot

897
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: of our leaders and multiple cities and counties and states

898
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: are just failing us. And that's not a that's not

899
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: a party thing either. You know, I'm a registered Democrat.

900
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: I've lived only in cities. Well, No, New York had

901
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: Bloomberg for a time, um, and Boston we had of

902
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: a looking governor. So I've probably lived more diverse set

903
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: than I imagine. At any rate, my county here in

904
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: Los Angeles has been flagrantly negligent, having raised billions of

905
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: dollars for the problem, spending like six hundred thousand dollars

906
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: per unit of housing. That's dumb, that's wasteful, that is ineffective.

907
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 1: But we had someone on who has a better way.

908
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 1: And so now it's up to me to like go

909
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 1: to a meeting or write a letter, or join in

910
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: a volunteer effort to try to give more momentum to

911
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 1: the thing that is actually working and not just STU.

912
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: That's that's what I wanted to get to In the

913
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: second season, you focus on economics. At least to my ears,

914
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 1: that seems what you did, and you have all these takeaways.

915
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's anything you can impart to us

916
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: anybody listening that maybe was able to somehow, against all odds,

917
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: save just a little bit of money. That that's extra,

918
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: Like what the heck should we do with that money

919
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 1: in order to help each other in our community? Where

920
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 1: should we pay? Am so glad you asked my My

921
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 1: crypto walidy address is barely commendating. And if you just

922
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: want to shoot that on over. Uh, the people. It's

923
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: all for the people. Okay, So you just hook do

924
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:20,479
Speaker 1: their part and I will I'll take so Lana as well.

925
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: We can work and from a multi chainer, a multi chainer.

926
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: That's a really that's a really good question. So to

927
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: two things come to mind. One is banking. Uh, when

928
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: we put our money in a bank, we are giving

929
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: an institution power, right we are. We are distributing our

930
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 1: power and saying, hold this for me and do whatever

931
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 1: you want with it, to multiply it and give me

932
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: like a half a percent, maybe one percent if we're

933
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 1: in an aggression of you know, high yield savings account

934
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: two point right. And meanwhile, you can go do credit

935
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 1: default swaps and all kinds of highly leverage nonsense. And

936
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,839
Speaker 1: with my money, um, and you can extract it from

937
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 1: my community and ship it to places that have no

938
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,240
Speaker 1: benefit to the people I love, no would care about.

939
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 1: We can make a different choice with our bank. Well,

940
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: if it's ten dollars in the bank, if it's a

941
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars in the bank, who do you want

942
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 1: to benefit from your money? Think about that? Think about

943
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: it like that. I don't think about it, just it's like,

944
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: who's got the best app or who's got the most

945
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: present brand? Who are who are you excited to let

946
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: into your house? You know it's your money, it's your

947
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 1: you worked for it, and he's gonna give it to

948
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 1: some random company. Again, I'm talking to myself. I still

949
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 1: bank with Chase. I'm working on it. Well, it's hard

950
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: to entangle sometimes, so call me and uh while we're

951
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 1: in the pre show. Yeah, they knew this conversation was coming.

952
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 1: They're trying to they're trying to cut you off, to

953
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: offer you a sweet deal. We've done whole episodes on

954
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 1: how crooked and horrible Wells Fargo is. And yet I'm

955
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: just lazy and I'm still with Wells Fargo and say,

956
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 1: but I'm a cop touer right now. You know that's

957
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: a that's a great So we're all acknowledging. Yeah. I

958
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 1: wrote an episode about how terrible they are, and then

959
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: after we recorded, I like had to call them and

960
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 1: it was like, so, can can we put our resources

961
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 1: in a in a co op instead of a bank?

962
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: Can we put it in a locally owned bank. Can

963
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: we put it in a minority owned bank? Can we

964
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 1: put it in something that's like grounded in the neighborhood.

965
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: Can we put in a facility that pays taxes, you know,

966
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: and then their charities though, like, why aren't there banks

967
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 1: that are set up to just do good work. Well,

968
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: that's a co op, that's a that's a cop. So

969
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: a co op is a member owned financial institution, like

970
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: a farmer's market co op, you know, like like a

971
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 1: worker co op. And we had two episodes in that

972
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: season about cooperatives, and one that really comes to mind

973
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 1: is a it's called the episodes called Land Without Landlords Um,

974
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 1: and it's about West Oakland and a group called the

975
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: East Bay Permanent Real Estate Cooperative. And basically, you know,

976
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: people in Oakland are are getting run out of Oakland

977
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: because the money is coming. The wave of tech money

978
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: and and tweet white people and electric scooters and five

979
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: dollar teeny tiny coffee drinks is coming. And and we've

980
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 1: decided as a nation, through our inaction, that money rules everything. Uh,

981
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: and if you have it, you can have a decent life,

982
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: and if you don't, you're gonna suffer. So they decided

983
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 1: to pull their resources and buy a bunch of buildings together,

984
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: and they governed it together. And they decide who what

985
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: types of businesses they want, what types of art institutions,

986
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: and provide you know, supportive housing there in a way

987
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 1: that a commercial developer. We haven't set up capitalism to

988
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 1: make that probably, dude, I want to do that. We could,

989
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: we haven't yet, and so we said, look, housing is

990
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: a stock like anything else. Housing is ah is a

991
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 1: speculative venture. Now it's it's like does And they're like, oh,

992
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: the crypto market such a scam, it's such a pyramid scheme.

993
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: Have you looked at the housing market. Well, you're just buying.

994
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 1: You're just buying that crypto because you wanted to go

995
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: up and value. You're not really interested in the underlying

996
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 1: utility of the coin a housing people, we just buy

997
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 1: houses as investments now, not as homes. And that's a

998
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: game that everybody plays because it's what we're all trying

999
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 1: to do. So, you know, we there are other there

1000
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: are other models for us to subscribe to. And I

1001
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 1: think for someone out there who's sitting on a buck

1002
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 1: or a million, where you keep your money and how

1003
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: you try to combine it with others, there's a lot

1004
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: we can do just on that front. Um And also

1005
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: listen to Season two there's a lot of answers in

1006
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 1: that one last dianability because like, I just bought butt

1007
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: a house, so I've been kind of neck deeping a

1008
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: lot of this stuff. But like you know, here in Atlanta,

1009
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: and I'm sure this is the case in many, many

1010
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: other cities, but it's so difficult for first time or

1011
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: anybody to buy a house here because you're competing with

1012
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 1: these developers that can pay cash, and so they come

1013
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: to the table immediately just by the fact that by

1014
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: virtue of the fact they're paying cash, they trump any

1015
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 1: other normal couple that does want to have a home

1016
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 1: or that does maybe maybe you're a made up term

1017
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 1: because it's probably not real, but like a benevolent landlord,

1018
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: or you want to buy houses and rent it for

1019
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: affordable market rates and not just like check up the price.

1020
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 1: You can't compete with these developers because if the seller

1021
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 1: thinks that they're gonna not have any chance of losing

1022
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 1: the sale because of financing falling through whatever, they're gonna

1023
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: go with the cash offer. But like you made, you

1024
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: made the point of like we're not set up for

1025
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: this kind of thing to work for actual human beings. Wow,

1026
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: what does that look like? How can you legislate and

1027
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: make it where these developers can't just buy up every

1028
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: available piece of land in the city to the point

1029
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 1: where it jacks up the rent for people that have

1030
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: been living there for generation. Dude, we were talking about

1031
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 1: before you jumped on likely. We absolutely were. And the

1032
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 1: fun thing is, I do have answers for everything. I

1033
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 1: don't know if they're the right answers, but I will

1034
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 1: just share. Like I remember living in New York. I

1035
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:30,959
Speaker 1: was there for twelve years. I left three years ago,

1036
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,479
Speaker 1: and and feeling what I will call again the wave

1037
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 1: of money, where the housing is occupied by money rather

1038
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: than people, and and so you have empty apartments sitting

1039
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: there just as investments you're rising and value but not

1040
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 1: providing homes and experiences and community for human beings. We

1041
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 1: can make difference sets of rules that limit how many

1042
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 1: units of housing a commercial to tea can own and operate.

1043
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 1: You know, we can make a transparency requirement on a

1044
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 1: company like Airbnb with the city to make sure that

1045
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 1: folks aren't turning long term apartments into short term hotels,

1046
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: and that one that neighborhoods aren't being totally swallowed up.

1047
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 1: You can put a cap you know, Palm Springs has

1048
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 1: put a cap on percentages of a neighborhood that can

1049
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 1: be short term rented so that there's still a sense

1050
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 1: of belonging. No one, very few people want to live

1051
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: in a hotel or in a resort or like a

1052
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 1: hotel strip environment or else. We'd all just moved to

1053
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 1: Vegas and that's that's a place you only should go

1054
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 1: for no more than four days at a time. You

1055
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 1: can't live in that year around, not on the strip.

1056
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: That's insane, but that's what we've turned. But so there's insensives. Now.

1057
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: The problem, you know, it's like our legislative process is

1058
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: bought by the people making money off the legislative rules

1059
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 1: in place and ensuring that. So that requires democracy reform,

1060
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 1: same with gum or form saying with all this stuff.

1061
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 1: So the money and politics thing is a big, you

1062
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 1: know phrase, but there's tangible things we can do to

1063
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 1: limit it. Public financing of campaigns, transparency even about the

1064
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:15,479
Speaker 1: people raising all this money that's unaccountable, you know, to

1065
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 1: to us the people. Term limits uh combination of things

1066
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 1: and districts that don't look like spaghetti, that actually correlate

1067
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 1: to neighborhoods and not, you know, an incumbent protection racket.

1068
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 1: And then also you are you brought up lobbying like

1069
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 1: we banish bribery. But I mean, it's just that's a

1070
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: funny thing. They tell us call your member of Congress,

1071
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 1: and when we call there on the phone with the donor,

1072
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like, we don't have we

1073
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,960
Speaker 1: don't have the Yeah, they're in a meeting. So make

1074
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 1: the donors get in line with us. We there's there's

1075
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:01,439
Speaker 1: a handful the things that I think would make a really,

1076
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,919
Speaker 1: really big difference. But in terms of this housing thing, yo,

1077
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 1: it's I don't think we'll do most of this anytime soon.

1078
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 1: I think we'll just live with the horrible consequences of

1079
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 1: an action further until it reaches an even more severe

1080
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: breaking point. But we all have our limits, and you know,

1081
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 1: Occupy Wall Street represented a limit for a lot of people,

1082
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 1: and they were just like, enough, we are occupying these

1083
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 1: physical spaces. The civil rights movement represents a threshold. People

1084
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 1: just had enough. We're gonna sit in on this counter,

1085
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 1: we're gonna occupy this space, we're gonna march, We're gonna

1086
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 1: coordinate with legislative strategies as well. So we're not just

1087
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 1: quote unquote marching, so I we are approaching that. I

1088
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: see it already with climate stuff and with the next generation,

1089
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: the tolerance is thinner, you know. And I'm with them.

1090
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: They're they're occupying like oil tankers and whatnot over in

1091
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 1: England like Greta and all the kids who are taken

1092
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: under the Friday's Office school to protest. It's building up. Um,

1093
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 1: So be ready to um to stand with. You know,

1094
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:07,919
Speaker 1: when you're walking down the street, I see a group

1095
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 1: of kids marching for their lives. At least, be ready

1096
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 1: to join them. Yes, and this is you know, I

1097
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 1: knew we were going to run into this as soon

1098
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 1: as we were actually hanging out again. But we have

1099
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 1: so much more stuff to explore, and Matt Noll, I

1100
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 1: know that you guys have like we have transparency, right,

1101
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 1: we have this document right with all the with all

1102
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:35,960
Speaker 1: these questions, and there's stuff that we were thinking about

1103
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 1: and I'm going through it like I might save that

1104
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 1: when we want to prioritize and be respectful of your time.

1105
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 1: But we absolutely must have you return on this show

1106
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 1: again if you are at all interested, because we've we've

1107
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 1: had a wide ranging conversation touching on things that affect

1108
01:05:55,800 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 1: every imaginable listener to this show. You know, and I

1109
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 1: want to thank you uh for creating How the Citizen,

1110
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:08,680
Speaker 1: and I know it could not be easy, even when

1111
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 1: it feels worthwhile sometimes, especially when Ben h thank thank

1112
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:15,600
Speaker 1: you all, thank you all for Ben Madden off of

1113
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 1: having me, I have lost track of time completely, And

1114
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:22,280
Speaker 1: that is a huge compliment because it's hot in this

1115
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 1: room and I could talk with y'all for hours. I

1116
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: already already can feel it. We can just keep riffing.

1117
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I we didn't even get to my background

1118
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 1: with conspiracy theories and like I was early to the game,

1119
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 1: I was early to the game pre x files, like

1120
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 1: early bulletin board stuff. Um, actually i'll drop a name.

1121
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: Maybe one of your listeners will recognize. Sherman Skolnick was

1122
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 1: um a Chicago based like he had the Citizens something court. Anyway,

1123
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 1: he had crazy theories about like Bill Clinton's inauguration and

1124
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 1: how there's a temp just filled the Japanese televisions and

1125
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:04,960
Speaker 1: like mind controlled. I used to eat that stuff up.

1126
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:07,960
Speaker 1: I was on Alex Jones, but not physically on the show.

1127
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:11,040
Speaker 1: I was listening to him before he was supernationally syndicated

1128
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 1: and then dangerously disruptive to our whole democracy. Um. So

1129
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 1: he was kind of interesting. I mean he was sort

1130
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 1: of like a being so harmful and then he you know,

1131
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: tipped on that spectrum of entertainment to destruction, towards destruction. UM.

1132
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 1: I classify a lot of pundity type people in that category.

1133
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 1: They got high on their own supply and and and

1134
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 1: they started making money, uh, increasing the extremity you know,

1135
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: of their comments, and they got disconnected from reality. Um

1136
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 1: on purpose. I think most of them know that what

1137
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 1: they're peddling is bullshit, but it's serving them um. And

1138
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 1: so they're actually they don't have listeners, they have victims. Uh.

1139
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 1: It's it's funny. There's a projection by all these people

1140
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 1: like they're the predators, they're the groomers right there. They're

1141
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 1: people for white supremacy, right Like they're softening up and

1142
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:08,400
Speaker 1: making palatable terminology and language that it should be absolutely

1143
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 1: not accepted in society. But that's not that's me warming

1144
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 1: up rather than cooling down. So I, um, may I

1145
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:20,200
Speaker 1: plug one, may I plug one project? Okay? Okay, so

1146
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 1: I made a television show um for PBS that's airing

1147
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:31,839
Speaker 1: this summer. It's called America Outdoors with Barritune day Thurston,

1148
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 1: and it is it feels disconnected from everything we've been

1149
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,920
Speaker 1: talking about, but it's actually very connected to everything we've

1150
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: been talking about because I had the privilege of traveling

1151
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 1: for six weeks in the summer of one week per location,

1152
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 1: one location per episode, interacting with Americans of every kind

1153
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 1: of background, of every kind of ability, um and ancestry,

1154
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:57,680
Speaker 1: who all have a deep connection to the outdoors. There

1155
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 1: were trumpy waterman in the chest of Peak Bay. There

1156
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 1: were you know, woke black surfers in l A. There

1157
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:09,599
Speaker 1: were indigenous you know nations in Minnesota harvesting while rice. Uh.

1158
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 1: There there were ranchers in Idaho and mountain bikers too.

1159
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: So there's something kind of in this show for everyone.

1160
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 1: And I think for all the discord and disconnect and despair, uh,

1161
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 1: I was so absolutely recharged by investing in that relationship

1162
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 1: with others and with nature. At the same time, I

1163
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 1: think if the shows like how do Citizen Outside um

1164
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:37,600
Speaker 1: and it's it's just with all the screen stuff and

1165
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:41,799
Speaker 1: the algorithms and everything we've been talking about, how easy

1166
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 1: it is to not want to say hello or to

1167
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 1: ask a question and to immediately other And I think

1168
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 1: that applies not only you know, between white people seeing

1169
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 1: black people are someone that doesn't look like them. It's

1170
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 1: like the same with neighbors that look the same. It's

1171
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 1: just the people see white people not talk to other

1172
01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 1: white people. And I'm like, but you have so much.

1173
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 1: But I think one thing that we all have in common,

1174
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:05,800
Speaker 1: and I think that you know, Matt, you're so good

1175
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:07,320
Speaker 1: at this and there's something that we all share. But

1176
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:09,519
Speaker 1: you know, Matt will just strike up a conversation with

1177
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:11,720
Speaker 1: a stranger and get their life story out of them,

1178
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:13,759
Speaker 1: you know, in the first like five minutes of the conversation,

1179
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 1: and it is a gift, um. But I think we

1180
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,000
Speaker 1: all genuinely value that, and that's what makes us ask

1181
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,679
Speaker 1: questions and are curious and we want to find out

1182
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 1: about our neighbors and what they think about things. And

1183
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:26,040
Speaker 1: you know, there's there are no strangers to us. So

1184
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:28,000
Speaker 1: I think that's a good way to be and it's

1185
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 1: a good message to spread. So that's well, this this show, um,

1186
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:34,559
Speaker 1: it's a birthday gift to the US. It premiers July five,

1187
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:39,960
Speaker 1: So in your in your celebratory hangover, tune in for

1188
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:43,200
Speaker 1: six weeks running to America Outdoors and I'm baritone day

1189
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 1: on all the socials. Um, and I'm gonna I'm gonna

1190
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:48,360
Speaker 1: I I write for a publication called Puck You can

1191
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:50,400
Speaker 1: just find it Puck Down News. I'm gonna go into

1192
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 1: too much detail on that, but it's dope and some

1193
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:54,600
Speaker 1: of my deepest thinking is in print there because I

1194
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 1: get to think about what I say before I say.

1195
01:10:56,280 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 1: I'm like with you, Yeah, who's uh? And for? But

1196
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 1: for for this stuff they don't want you to know. Crew. UM,

1197
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:05,679
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give I'm gonna give your listeners my phone numbers,

1198
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 1: a special number. Don't be alarmed. Um, it's a community

1199
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:12,760
Speaker 1: so semi public number. You can text this number and

1200
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 1: if you do so, you will basically join a text

1201
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:17,839
Speaker 1: mailing list. But I won't hit you up for fifteen

1202
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:21,760
Speaker 1: dollars every week like Nancy Pelosi. I respect you too

1203
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:25,040
Speaker 1: much one time to just extract dollars from one time.

1204
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:29,240
Speaker 1: I'll give you that while of a dress. But but

1205
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 1: the number is two oh two eight nine four eight

1206
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:37,800
Speaker 1: eight four four and uh two oh to eight nine

1207
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 1: four eight a four four and just send in the

1208
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:43,920
Speaker 1: body of the text put s t d w y

1209
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:46,960
Speaker 1: t K. Also, when I say it out loud, it

1210
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 1: just makes me think a sexually transmitted If we could

1211
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:53,759
Speaker 1: go back and get a different name for this show,

1212
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 1: Like we thought we were gonna get fired when we

1213
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,439
Speaker 1: started making this show, and then when we realized weren't

1214
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 1: gonna get fire, we confronted the next problem, which is

1215
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 1: it's the longest freaking name for a show. Stuff they

1216
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 1: actually hold up. So if you have patients due to

1217
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 1: the whole acronym that the letters or just say stuff,

1218
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:21,400
Speaker 1: just put text me with the words stuff the wait,

1219
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 1: wait do we call it our phone? We might say

1220
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 1: that after the end maybe we'll catch but yeah, also

1221
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 1: U dot com. That's where it is. One of my

1222
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:39,240
Speaker 1: starting points for a lot of your current and previous work.

1223
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 1: I want to also shout out we're having a moment um,

1224
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 1: which we because we mentioned how the Citizen first, but

1225
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:48,679
Speaker 1: we should also mention we're having a moment and definitely

1226
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:53,679
Speaker 1: don't sleep on keep Jerry Folwell away from my oreo. Cos. Okay,

1227
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:55,800
Speaker 1: now I feel like you know we are. This is

1228
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 1: how you know we're actually maybe becoming friends. It's hard

1229
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:00,759
Speaker 1: to say goodbye it's like, Uh, it's like a nineties

1230
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:02,439
Speaker 1: R and V. I have to say that the joke

1231
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:03,720
Speaker 1: that occurred to me when I heard the name of

1232
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:05,479
Speaker 1: that book, Jared follows the kind of guy that he's

1233
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 1: an oreo and just goes, oh, don't mind, Drake. I

1234
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:14,479
Speaker 1: used to do when I was early in my stand

1235
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 1: up career. I was like, I need a product, and

1236
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:20,160
Speaker 1: I didn't have the equipment to do a quality audio

1237
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:23,160
Speaker 1: recording and make like CDs for sale. But I was like,

1238
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 1: I'm a writer. So I would take my weekly newsletter

1239
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:29,720
Speaker 1: and I'd write little jokes, momentary jokes. I call it

1240
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:32,680
Speaker 1: basically as weekend update style jokes. And so I had

1241
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:36,200
Speaker 1: these Mojo quarterly momentary. Every quarter I put the best

1242
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 1: of my jokes and essays and little pamphlets and I'd

1243
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 1: sell them at the back of the club for a dollar.

1244
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 1: They were just like these xerox zines of my stuff,

1245
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 1: and that provided a little money, but it gave me

1246
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 1: people a calling card. Uh. One of those book titles,

1247
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 1: books and very big quotation marks was this keep Jared

1248
01:13:54,439 --> 01:13:56,640
Speaker 1: fall well away from my oreole cookies because he and

1249
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 1: his focus on the family group. UM. May he rest

1250
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 1: in peace. Were so appalled that there was a an

1251
01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:08,240
Speaker 1: lgbt Q plus like Olympics event, the Gay Games. It

1252
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:11,720
Speaker 1: was in Chicago, and and the BISCO was a sponsor,

1253
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 1: and so they were boycotting the BISCO for destroying the

1254
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 1: American family by promoting like athletics and community amongst people

1255
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 1: who we've excluded for for quite a long time. And

1256
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:26,160
Speaker 1: you know, Shaker, I took some offense at that, but

1257
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:30,759
Speaker 1: I wrote some really uh hilarious and disrespectful things about

1258
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:33,840
Speaker 1: Jo in that zine. So if if you can find it,

1259
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:36,880
Speaker 1: you are very good at internet sleuth thing because it

1260
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:40,920
Speaker 1: wasn't a big a big online thing, um special rewards

1261
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 1: that you'll be one of the we will be one

1262
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:46,400
Speaker 1: of the deep deep cut fans. At which point let

1263
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:49,880
Speaker 1: let us know, because we will. We will try to

1264
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:52,720
Speaker 1: find We're gonna try to find this too. That's that

1265
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:54,639
Speaker 1: one is one of the ones I haven't read yet,

1266
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:58,639
Speaker 1: so I want to can't believe you'll went that. Literally,

1267
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:03,000
Speaker 1: no one has ever brought up like in a decade.

1268
01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 1: In over a decade, no one has brought up those

1269
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: little self published book titles. But these congressionals are just

1270
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:17,320
Speaker 1: so damn sexy, sexy that's the thing about momentary. I

1271
01:15:17,439 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 1: feel like, why would you call a book that It

1272
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 1: made sense At that time, there was a member of

1273
01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:24,880
Speaker 1: Congress and he was up in the pages and he

1274
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:29,759
Speaker 1: had to be this whole thing. Remember, I'll date myself.

1275
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:32,200
Speaker 1: This was back in a time when uh, you know,

1276
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:36,720
Speaker 1: public officials uh, and people have trusted leadership positions in

1277
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:39,840
Speaker 1: the community were sometimes inappropriate with children. I know that's

1278
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:43,559
Speaker 1: hard to imagine nowadays, but we we used to live

1279
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:49,880
Speaker 1: in that one Yeah, yeah, ye old oh six. That

1280
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:52,879
Speaker 1: was back when we could call uh, the early twenties

1281
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 1: the odds right, never did that. I just wasn't cool enough.

1282
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:02,519
Speaker 1: I didn't have the social capital with my friends, so

1283
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:07,080
Speaker 1: I just didn't say. I just skipped. There's nothing happened

1284
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:11,240
Speaker 1: between two thousand and the tins. It was just period.

1285
01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 1: I can't believe you made a full episode and a

1286
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:21,120
Speaker 1: bonus episode like this is crazy. Yes, thank you please God. Yeah,

1287
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:23,599
Speaker 1: we're not We're not blowing smoke. Uh. This is given

1288
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:26,559
Speaker 1: me the last time that we'll say it. Don't take

1289
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:28,960
Speaker 1: our word for it. Go check out how to Citizen

1290
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:32,400
Speaker 1: and let us know what you think and take advantage

1291
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,599
Speaker 1: of that phone number. Go learn more. About the work

1292
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:39,400
Speaker 1: and spoiler, we don't know what's happening in season four,

1293
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 1: so we're tuned in right with you. Uh, and we

1294
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:45,120
Speaker 1: cannot wait to hear your thoughts. It is always a

1295
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 1: pleasure to hang out. We actually made it happen from

1296
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:51,760
Speaker 1: all those months ago in Texas. Thank you so much,

1297
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. This means a lot. Yeah, thank

1298
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:59,439
Speaker 1: you all. It's been a pleasure. What a ride. I

1299
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 1: am so you know what. I'm so glad we were

1300
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,000
Speaker 1: able to make this interview. I don't I don't think

1301
01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 1: it's in the interview, but one of the first things

1302
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:12,000
Speaker 1: we were talking about when barritun Day hopped on is uh.

1303
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:15,559
Speaker 1: He said, you guys actually made this happen. That's so

1304
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:20,679
Speaker 1: very un Los Angeles of you, and I'm so glad

1305
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 1: we did. Did you guys enjoy that kidding? The best

1306
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 1: part of my week so far. What a thoughtful, lovely,

1307
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:31,640
Speaker 1: interesting fellow. Uh. And it just felt really great to

1308
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:33,519
Speaker 1: just kind of, you know, shoot the breeze with him

1309
01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:37,040
Speaker 1: and not really necessarily have a specific direction. Um. But

1310
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:39,519
Speaker 1: it went in so many directions that I think are

1311
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:43,519
Speaker 1: going to be valuable for for listeners and certainly valuable

1312
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:45,360
Speaker 1: for me. We hit on in an interview, but the

1313
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 1: work Bear toun Day is doing, and especially how the citizen,

1314
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 1: it does feel like it's important stuff. And the takeaways

1315
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:55,200
Speaker 1: that you get with every episode. I don't know of

1316
01:17:55,240 --> 01:17:59,559
Speaker 1: those actionable items. It's something that you would learn in

1317
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:02,040
Speaker 1: a class us. You know it does. It does feel

1318
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:03,880
Speaker 1: like you're in a class, But when you're inside the

1319
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,240
Speaker 1: episode listening, it feels like you're just in a conversation.

1320
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 1: So I couldn't be happier that we got to speak

1321
01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:12,160
Speaker 1: with them about all the various subjects we did, and

1322
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:16,559
Speaker 1: we hope that you enjoyed this interview as much as

1323
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:19,519
Speaker 1: we did. Folks, we can't wait to hear your thoughts.

1324
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 1: You can find us online Facebook and sacrim Twitter all

1325
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:27,120
Speaker 1: the hits. Uh. You can also call that number Barrett

1326
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 1: won Day was talking about it Israel. I'm texting it

1327
01:18:31,160 --> 01:18:33,920
Speaker 1: as well, and while you're around your phone, if you

1328
01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:36,559
Speaker 1: don't like the sip in the social meds, you can

1329
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 1: also just call us directly. That's right, We're one three

1330
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:41,880
Speaker 1: three S T D W y t K. Leave a

1331
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:44,800
Speaker 1: message to the sound of Ben's dulcet tones. You have

1332
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:47,360
Speaker 1: three minutes to tell your tale, ask your question do

1333
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:50,800
Speaker 1: with whatever you would like. Uh and if you need

1334
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:53,320
Speaker 1: more time than that, totally cool. We've got another way

1335
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 1: to reach us. Why not, said us a good old

1336
01:18:55,120 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 1: fashioned email where we are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Ye.

1337
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:19,799
Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

1338
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:22,960
Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

1339
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:25,960
Speaker 1: visit the i heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1340
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.