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Speaker 1: Look mare, oh, I see you my own bow and

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Speaker 1: look over there is that culture. Yes, goodness, lost culture, dang.

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Speaker 2: Dong lost Culturista is calling. We're sort of doing that

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Speaker 2: indulcent tones because we have not just one visitor, but two.

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Speaker 3: Were doubly starstruck. I I don't even really remember my

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Speaker 3: sort of exclamatory sound that I made when I saw

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Speaker 3: Nico showing up.

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Speaker 2: Nico's here, guys, Nico's here.

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Speaker 3: I was, I can't believe this is real and just.

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Speaker 2: Like Mom, even more striking in person, a style icon

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Speaker 2: in her own right.

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Speaker 3: A curiosity icon much like her mother.

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Speaker 2: And extremely comfortable with us. We were saying, Nico is

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Speaker 2: on the couch with me and Bowen. We do have

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Speaker 2: a pink bed here that Nico could use at any time. However,

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Speaker 2: it feels like she's chosen a spot, and I couldn't

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Speaker 2: be happier.

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Speaker 3: I'm very happy with this spot. She's she can opt

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Speaker 3: out of it any time she chooses. I'm just letting

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Speaker 3: her know in English in case she can understand. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: she stands so smart.

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Speaker 2: I will say, also, this is giving me comfort, and

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it's giving you comfort extra because

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Speaker 2: it is incredibly hard not to sit across from our guest,

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Speaker 2: sitting next to someone you're very close to and not

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Speaker 2: feel like you're in Couple's Therapy, which you know rings true,

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Speaker 2: being that that is the name of the show. It's

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Speaker 2: streaming now. It's our favorite show. Was I the one

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Speaker 2: that showed to you?

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Speaker 3: You pat me on it and then and I thank

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Speaker 3: God every day for you.

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Speaker 2: Yea.

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Speaker 3: And I was watching with her friend Matt Whaker. I

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Speaker 3: was watching the screeners for this season five and he

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Speaker 3: mutters under his breath, professional TV writer watches everything he goes,

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Speaker 3: this is my favorite show on TV.

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Speaker 2: It is I got born into Couples Therapy. He took

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Speaker 2: it to London and then the whole Wicked cast was

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Speaker 2: like we got to talk about doctor and what she's

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Speaker 2: capable of. It's it's huge. I mean, this is this

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Speaker 2: is really big for us. She I guess we had

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Speaker 2: some material effect on her life and we and we

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Speaker 2: and we asked her to repeat this anecdote.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because we're proud of this. She is our style

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Speaker 3: Icon Lost Culture Award winner from last year.

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Speaker 2: And it's born fruit in the real fashion world.

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Speaker 3: Truly, and I'm excited to hear more but anyway, A

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Speaker 3: couple therapy new season May fifteenth, streaming now streaming now.

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, it's out and we're so thrilled.

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Speaker 2: She asked for a pen and paper. We were like why,

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Speaker 2: uh oh, but.

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Speaker 3: Then but then now I'm like, well, if it happens,

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Speaker 3: it happens, But we don't want to put her on

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Speaker 3: the spot.

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Speaker 1: Everyone, welcome, doctor or your own.

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Speaker 2: We are so happy you're here.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for inviting me.

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Speaker 2: Nico.

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Speaker 3: I'm thrilled, And Nico, is she she? You don't have

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Speaker 3: any anxiety of having her off the leash in this space.

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Speaker 4: We'll talk about that later, Oh.

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Speaker 2: Your own anxieties?

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, I have no anxiety having her off

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Speaker 4: the leash. Other people have anxiety about having.

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Speaker 3: Interesting any like people in production.

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Speaker 4: Well, that was going to be my rant.

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Speaker 1: Oh we'll say that. I'm glad you're asking.

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Speaker 4: That was the only rant I could think.

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Speaker 3: That's a great rant. That's a really good rant. Now

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Speaker 3: what kinds of garments are you receiving? And can you

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Speaker 3: can you explain to the class what you're like.

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Speaker 4: You guys have changed my life because you've declared me

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Speaker 4: a fashion icon, and since then I've been invited to

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Speaker 4: fashion shows first time ever?

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Speaker 3: Did you go?

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Speaker 4: I went it was incredible. I went to like Calvin Chanelle,

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Speaker 4: I mean incredible.

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Speaker 3: We don't get.

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Speaker 4: The one. I go to that fun one and I

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Speaker 4: get clothes from all these designers now and I'm like,

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Speaker 4: thank you, You've changed my life.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, well the thanks We could return right back because

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Speaker 2: it is our favorite show. I find it's more compelling

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Speaker 2: every season. And we were actually talking right before you

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Speaker 2: came in and then resumed the conversation with you. Just

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Speaker 2: this season is so compelling, and right off the bat,

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Speaker 2: one of the things that you pulled out of the

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Speaker 2: couple who disagrees politically. Their names are Jason and or Marjorie.

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Speaker 2: You just flat out said, like you don't know what

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Speaker 2: each other cares about. And then you were saying every

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Speaker 2: time that's always a common threat. We're not actually asking.

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Speaker 4: I mean, Marjorie and Jason say that they argue all

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Speaker 4: day long about politics, right, I mean long marriage. And

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Speaker 4: then you ask each of them what does the other

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Speaker 4: one care about? What are their actual opinions? And they're

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Speaker 4: like they grow blank, They're like.

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Speaker 3: Umm, not sure. So after that, is this the inflection

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Speaker 3: point for you to say you guys need to work

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Speaker 3: on listening because you're not listening to god it. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you needed that piece first. You needed to confirm that

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Speaker 3: they were arguing all day but not internalizing anything the

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Speaker 3: other person was saying.

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Speaker 4: And I had it right in front of me. I

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Speaker 4: was like, Okay, start the argument, let's listen. And then

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Speaker 4: I asked each of them like what did the other

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Speaker 4: ones say? And what do you know about their opinions?

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Speaker 4: And they were like they drew a blank.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I mean that's the thing about if you

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Speaker 4: listen to a lot of political arguments, people are just

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Speaker 4: like sitting there and building their own argument while the

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Speaker 4: other person is talking.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And was there some hedging around the sort of

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Speaker 3: producing of the show on whether or not to have

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Speaker 3: an example of such a marriage or a relationship on

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Speaker 3: the show because.

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Speaker 4: We wanted that. Yeah, we wanted that. We still want that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's I mean, obviously that's a very important

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Speaker 4: topic nowadays. Yes, And it was like really important for

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Speaker 4: us to have this kind of couple. We were actually

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Speaker 4: seeking that kind of couple.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's true that the couples have to sort

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Speaker 3: of basically I might be wrong on this, but the

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Speaker 3: couples sort of do have to clear quote unquote a

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Speaker 3: certain kind of emotional intelligence or like a threshold quotient. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and so it's hard for its hard to get anyone

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Speaker 3: to really sit down and sort of go through that process.

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Speaker 3: But I feel like there's an extra layer of refraction

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Speaker 3: to have someone two people who disagree politically but are

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Speaker 3: married and who both mutually want this kind of therapy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there weren't that many, that's true.

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Speaker 2: This is the crazy thing that I observe in couples,

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Speaker 2: especially over the past few years, where there is a

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Speaker 2: political difference, and I find that they're like, well, we

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Speaker 2: just don't talk about it, and it's just and I've

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Speaker 2: discovered that again and again. Maybe I'm seeing it through

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Speaker 2: a certain lens because I'm a gay man who overexternalizes,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of my friends also are very emotional

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Speaker 2: and externalize a lot. But people who are in relationships,

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Speaker 2: I find it with a lot of straight couples who

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Speaker 2: are like, I just don't talk to my spouse about this.

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Speaker 2: That is so wild to me, And I wonder if

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Speaker 2: the therapy is now giving them an occasion to actually

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Speaker 2: talk about it and not just argue about it.

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Speaker 4: The thing is, I mean, people reach a point where

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Speaker 4: they don't talk about it, they start talking about it,

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Speaker 4: then they get into like really intense disagreements, and you know,

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Speaker 4: people just like generate their own world of facts, each

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Speaker 4: in their own bubble, and there's nowhere to go with it.

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Speaker 4: But I don't really understand the business of like not

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Speaker 4: talking about politics, because like everything we do has politics

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Speaker 4: like saturated all over our smallest choices. So even couples

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Speaker 4: that don't talk about politics, they're constantly talking about politics.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I always talk about a couple as like

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Speaker 4: a mini political system. They're negotiating differences all the time.

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Speaker 4: And one of them, if one of them is more

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Speaker 4: kind of let's say, right wing, they're going to go

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Speaker 4: for more domination and power solutions to difference, and someone

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Speaker 4: who's more liberal is going to be more inclined to

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Speaker 4: think about multiple perspectives, and they're going to be negotiating

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Speaker 4: those differences between them, even if they ever talk about

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Speaker 4: like Trump. Sure, it was just they're always talking politics.

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Speaker 3: They are, Yeah, And it was just surprising how quickly

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Speaker 3: they I mean, I'm sure editing had to do with it,

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Speaker 3: but it was surprising how quickly they both locked into

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Speaker 3: listening because you prompted them to do that, and I

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Speaker 3: think there there was like almost some immediate progress there

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Speaker 3: were they both they both realized, oh, I guess we

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Speaker 3: don't know what the other person cares about.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, although I mean I love them, They're a great

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Speaker 4: couple and the work was incredible with them. I mean,

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Speaker 4: they were just like so delightful to work with. I

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Speaker 4: did have kind of a hope that we're going to

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Speaker 4: I knew in advance that they have like political differences,

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Speaker 4: and I wanted one of the results of my work

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Speaker 4: with them, that was my own personal selfish wish for

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Speaker 4: them to align more on politics. And that did not happen.

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Speaker 4: I mean a little bit of that happened, but that

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Speaker 4: did not happen. They got better at talking, but I

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Speaker 4: thought there was be some conversion there.

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Speaker 3: Because do you feel like that's I mean, it's obviously

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Speaker 3: better than how they came into the into the care,

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Speaker 3: into the therapy, but it's at least it's something. But like,

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Speaker 3: are the politics just going to encroach on on whatever

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Speaker 3: like progress they've made. I don't know. I guess that's

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Speaker 3: because you just there is it's sort of clinically the

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Speaker 3: best thing and sort of on a production level, the

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Speaker 3: best thing for you to not really keep in touch

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Speaker 3: with them after after it's done, right.

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Speaker 4: We I mean, I see just before I'm going to

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Speaker 4: see all of the couples, were about to sit down

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Speaker 4: with them just before it airs and just prepare them

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Speaker 4: for what's coming. So I'm going to see them.

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Speaker 3: Yes, individual like just a couple of couple. I do

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Speaker 3: feel like there is.

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Speaker 4: This and with some couples I do keep in touch

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Speaker 4: a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Okay, interesting, certain couples I feel like are not received

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Speaker 3: well by the audience. By the audience and are you thinking,

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking I can name examples, but maybe that's I

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Speaker 3: feel like a first season what's what's his?

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Speaker 4: Oh? Everyone liked to attack mau Yeah, and poor Maw

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Speaker 4: Like I just learning experience.

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Speaker 3: For us, sure, and like what we're because I feel

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Speaker 3: like the show is very preserved from the first It's

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Speaker 3: been so consistent. The choices and just stylistically and in

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Speaker 3: the way that the stories are told has been so consistent.

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Speaker 3: But I feel like with someone like Mao as a

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Speaker 3: first example of like, oh, the audience has strong feelings

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Speaker 3: about these dynamics and these people like what were the.

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Speaker 4: Learnings, Well, one thing to say before even the learnings

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Speaker 4: is that I think one of the good things about

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Speaker 4: the show that we've heard repeatedly every season is that

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Speaker 4: seasons begin and people love to create a certain kind

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Speaker 4: of scapegoat. They love to hate on someone and decide

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Speaker 4: who's bad and who are they siding with, and by

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Speaker 4: the end of the season they're like, oh, actually I

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Speaker 4: developed empathy for everyone. So that's like, actually an incredible

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Speaker 4: journey for the audience that that's sort of what we're after.

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Speaker 4: I think it didn't go that well the first season

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Speaker 4: with Mao for a few different reasons. I think, first

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Speaker 4: of all, the editing, sort of the way he was portrayed.

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Speaker 4: I think we didn't get into certain we didn't have

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Speaker 4: them for long enough. They didn't stay for the whole

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Speaker 4: length of the treatment. They left at some point, so

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Speaker 4: we didn't have enough. And I think what we focused

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Speaker 4: on in terms of what was shown to the audience

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Speaker 4: didn't show enough of the subtleties of who he is.

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Speaker 4: And I think we learned from that.

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Speaker 2: I remember thinking that, I remember thinking watching it and

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Speaker 2: being like, he is I understand and to him as

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Speaker 2: being unappealing because of his stubbornness in this situation. But

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Speaker 2: I was like, there's also something funny and attractive about.

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Speaker 4: Him, you know what I mean, which sense in his

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Speaker 4: own world. Yeah, he just speaks deeply from his own world. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and you have to be willing to go into his

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Speaker 4: world for Mau to make sense.

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Speaker 3: M of course, and ultimately, couple's therapy is this dialectic

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Speaker 3: thing where two opposing things build into something greater than

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Speaker 3: the sum of like the two things, right is And

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Speaker 3: this is why this is your specialty because one on

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Speaker 3: one therapy is.

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Speaker 4: No, I did plenty of one on one I'm an analyst.

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Speaker 1: You're an analyst.

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Speaker 3: But but that is the special thing about couples therapy

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Speaker 3: that totally and you, I mean, and do you find

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Speaker 3: yourself having to tell a lot of people I also

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Speaker 3: do one on one or yes, yes, right and so.

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Speaker 4: But that's exactly the difference between couple's work and individual work.

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Speaker 4: And it is what I love about couple's work that

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Speaker 4: you have to like hold multiple perspectives at the same time.

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Speaker 3: It's a perfect show for me to put my phone down,

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Speaker 3: you know how. There's like show like the Netflix has

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Speaker 3: shows where it's like they understand that the audience.

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Speaker 1: Is on their phone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I feel like a couple therapy is the

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Speaker 3: rare show where it's like you have to pay attention,

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Speaker 3: Like it's like it's it. It's like it's as if

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Speaker 3: there were subtitles that you had to read, but there aren't.

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Speaker 3: You can turn them on, but you know, you have

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Speaker 3: to pay attention. You have to lock into this the

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Speaker 3: way that like you are, in the way that the

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Speaker 3: couples are, because I feel like they are they've opted

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Speaker 3: in just as much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what is was your experience when someone approached you

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Speaker 2: about bringing therapy to television? Because I always wonder what

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Speaker 2: that thought process, Like, what the hell not only just

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Speaker 2: but for the people having therapy, like going through it,

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Speaker 2: but also you facilitating it, Like yeah, the checkpoints you

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Speaker 2: must have had to go through that not only every person,

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Speaker 2: but every you know, professional and that is in your

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Speaker 2: field is going to also have eyes on it.

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Speaker 4: Well. When I talked with Josh and Elise, the creators

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Speaker 4: of the show. When I talked with them, originally I

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Speaker 4: wasn't thinking of participating as a therapist. I was just

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Speaker 4: listening to their ideas and like I thought, I want

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Speaker 4: to consult to them I have a like a background

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Speaker 4: in film, and I thought, I just want to make

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Speaker 4: sure they don't make another sleazy show about like a

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Speaker 4: narcissistic therapist. And we started talking and they, I mean,

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Speaker 4: they're amazing people there. I just loved talking to them,

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Speaker 4: and it was clear that they have like a real,

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Speaker 4: like dignified idea of what they want the show to

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Speaker 4: look like they really wanted to be about real therapy

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Speaker 4: in depth, take the time. And then they started convincing

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Speaker 4: me like why don't you try? And first I was like,

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Speaker 4: that's ridiculous, Like I don't know how to be in

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Speaker 4: front of a camera.

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Speaker 2: Like they were like, no, I didn't.

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Speaker 3: Really.

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Speaker 1: Well they saw it, I guess they.

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Speaker 4: But they're also very tay they are documentary filmmakers. They're like,

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Speaker 4: that's not the point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but what is your film background that you were saying?

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Speaker 4: I studied film.

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Speaker 3: Then you just understand how the sage and I'm.

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Speaker 4: Interested in the medium of film.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think it's a very powerful medium. I mean, especially

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Speaker 4: in this culture. Yes, you can do a lot with

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Speaker 4: good film and with good docs. So yeah, but then

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Speaker 4: they put the cameras in the room and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: actually we do what we do, even when there's a

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Speaker 4: camera there, and even if I'm nervous, I know how

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Speaker 4: to do this and it doesn't really make a big difference.

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Speaker 4: And then you put someone in front of me and

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Speaker 4: we start talking about their issues and they're also getting

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Speaker 4: absorbed in it, and I guess we can do it.

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Speaker 2: It made me excited to be in therapy. Cool, it

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Speaker 2: really did. I think it does that for a lot

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Speaker 2: of people. Originally, I wonder if this is one of

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Speaker 2: the things that you were tipping to when you were saying,

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Speaker 2: like the narcissistic therapist therapist, but the show in treatment

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Speaker 2: does that what you mean, like the sort of sensationalized.

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Speaker 4: It was sensationalized, but that wasn't the worst. I mean,

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Speaker 4: there are plenty of shows that are like that. Portray

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Speaker 4: therapists is either like falling asleep on their patients or

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Speaker 4: wanting to sleep with their patients, sleeping with their patients,

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Speaker 4: or just absorbed in their own shit. I mean, it's

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Speaker 4: like people love to project like the worst nightmare on

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Speaker 4: their therapist, and of course they're bad therapists, but most

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Speaker 4: people are decent. They actually want to listen to their

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Speaker 4: patients and they go into the profession, not because they're narcissists,

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Speaker 4: plenty of other professions.

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Speaker 3: But there's a bias towards the narcissists because it's because

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Speaker 3: the medium is film or television or whatever. I think

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Speaker 3: it's a spotlight.

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Speaker 4: I think people there's so much you know, the word transference.

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Speaker 4: There's so much projection onto therapists of everything, like all

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Speaker 4: the ways in which your parents have failed you, or

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Speaker 4: what you want from the caretaker, and all the fear

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Speaker 4: of how they're going to fail you again. And that's

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Speaker 4: what TV kind of grabs onto, or that's what film

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Speaker 4: grabs onto those fears.

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Speaker 3: It's that's interesting because I think the way you work

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Speaker 3: around that is by talking to Virginia doctor Virginia Goldener,

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Speaker 3: and you talk to the peer group, which, by the way,

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Speaker 3: my old writing the essay teacher Stop Noir, and she

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Speaker 3: wrote an amazing book on laughter, on the difference between

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Speaker 3: non duchen laughter and duchene laughter. You want know the

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Speaker 3: difference is animal joy. Amazing book. It's it's actually like

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Speaker 3: for comedy, I think comedy people should read this book.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't.

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Speaker 3: I'm surprised that it's not like circulated more among comedians.

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Speaker 3: But she it's that's the whole thing about non du

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Speaker 3: sheen laughter, which is voluntary laughter, like like you're you're

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Speaker 3: you're laughing as a way to like move the conversation along.

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Speaker 3: Just just it's it's it's it's real.

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Speaker 1: It's guy.

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Speaker 3: It's like it's the guide rails, guardrails for a conversation

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Speaker 3: to just move along, how a little joke about the

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Speaker 3: weather or whatever. Duschen laughter is open mouth involuntary or

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Speaker 3: sing laughter something's gone terribly wrong hah ha ha, like

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Speaker 3: nervous laughter, or it's like joyful, like oh my god,

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Speaker 3: like a break on SNL Like I was even, I

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, like a break on SNL is actually

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Speaker 3: just do shun laughter. But Norah al Sadeer, what a

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Speaker 3: small world, and I reached out her. I was like,

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Speaker 3: but she so all so all the all, like the

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Speaker 3: the grad students basically at NYU or like the adjuncts

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Speaker 3: or whatever had to had and they hated this, I'm sure,

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Speaker 3: but they had to teach all the NYU freshmen across

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Speaker 3: all the schools had to take a one semester long

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Speaker 3: class called Writing the Essay, just writing an expository essay

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Speaker 3: about your life and she core curriculum, core curriculum stuff.

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Speaker 3: So like the Tish kids in the acting school, in

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Speaker 3: the theater school had to take it, the chemistry majors

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Speaker 3: had to take it, the business majors.

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Speaker 2: It was.

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Speaker 3: It was just the one core class that everyone had

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Speaker 3: to take. And she was my professor. And I wrote it.

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Speaker 3: I don't even know what the fuck I wrote, but

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Speaker 3: she read it and she gave me a mediocre grade,

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Speaker 3: which I deserved. But she's but I reached after. I

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Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, it's so cool. You're so

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Speaker 3: she's I think she's fantastic. But that's a great group.

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Speaker 3: What differences are you getting from each group? Are from

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Speaker 3: the group?

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Speaker 4: And doctor Goldner, Virginia is my original mentor. I mean,

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Speaker 4: that's why I brought her onto the show. And she

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Speaker 4: really taught me the whole couple's therapy thing, and I

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Speaker 4: guess we get kind of deeper into like clinical nuances

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Speaker 4: and explaining what's going on in the treatment with a

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Speaker 4: peer group. They're all my friends. I mean, they're really

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Speaker 4: my colleagues. They're not like chosen for the show. They're

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Speaker 4: really the people that I talk to about patients. And

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Speaker 4: first of all, they're really interesting. They have very different

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Speaker 4: perspectives on the work, each of them, and sitting with them,

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Speaker 4: I feel like they're they're like helping me carry the

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Speaker 4: load of doing this work. I mean it's an intense

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Speaker 4: thing to do. I mean, it's an intense thing to

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Speaker 4: be an analyst, to be a therapist, but to be

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Speaker 4: doing it for TV is like it's a lot of responsibility,

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Speaker 4: like big time, and they're kind of carrying the emotional

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Speaker 4: responsibility with me. They're like my buddies and they're thinking

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Speaker 4: with me, and it's it's very helpful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And are they watching the footage or the.

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Speaker 4: Daily They watch not all of it, but they watch

400
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Speaker 4: kind of select sure.

401
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Speaker 3: Yeah, because this season you talk to an autism and

402
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Speaker 3: neurodiversion expert and the way she was commenting on Clinton,

403
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Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, she must be she must be

404
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Speaker 3: privy to the footage at least yes, to like understand

405
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Speaker 3: his kind. And so I was always curious about it,

406
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Speaker 3: but it didn't really click for me until this season,

407
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Speaker 3: like five seasons and was like, Oh, I guess these

408
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Speaker 3: other people are like in on the sessions tour or

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Speaker 3: at least they get to watch, they get edits, they

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Speaker 3: get edits.

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Speaker 4: I see, Yeah, we choose kind of what would be

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Speaker 4: important to talk about what I'm struggling with or yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean the thing about Clinton, Yeah, he's neurodivergent and

414
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Speaker 4: he does things like he's packaged in a slightly different way.

415
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Speaker 4: But the emotions that he puts out there makes sense

416
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 4: very much. So they're very direct, and he explains himself. Well,

417
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Speaker 4: he's very verbal. They're just very raw. But it's the

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Speaker 4: same material that we're made of. He's just you know,

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Speaker 4: packaged a little differently. I mean it was not hard.

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Speaker 4: Actually really loved working with them. I like working with

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Speaker 4: all the people that yeah to stay, but it would

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Speaker 4: be different in a relationship. I think as a therapist,

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Speaker 4: you know, you have the luxury of like coming in,

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Speaker 4: spending some hours working on and then you go home

425
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Speaker 4: and you're like dealing with your own people. I think

426
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Speaker 4: in a relationship it's different when someone is really different

427
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Speaker 4: from you or why are different. I mean, generally difference

428
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Speaker 4: is difficult, but when people are kind of structurally different,

429
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Speaker 4: it's hard.

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Speaker 3: Well I don't know if you've gotten to this part,

431
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Speaker 3: but there's a moment where kind of tells you, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm trying to like, you know, he's his

433
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 3: diagnosis is relatively recent, and he's letting all of this

434
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Speaker 3: define everything about him or something along those lines, and

435
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Speaker 3: then he says it, of course it defines everything about me,

436
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 3: Your transness defines everything about you. Yeah, and it kind

437
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 3: of immediately clarified things for I think both of them,

438
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Speaker 3: and maybe for you or Shay kind of was she

439
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,439
Speaker 3: was just kind of like, I think she took that

440
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 3: in and she under set in.

441
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 4: But as far as I remember, I remember that session

442
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 4: as far as I remember, I don't know if it

443
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 4: was in the edits. But she then said to him, actually,

444
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 4: no longer.

445
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 3: I don't think that did. I don't think I remember that.

446
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

447
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 4: Wow, maybe it wasn't in there, but but she she

448
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 4: did understand. But she was like, you know, I've been

449
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 4: trans long enough that that is not no longer kind

450
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 4: of the defining feature for me.

451
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 3: And I think and you and you notice that right

452
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 3: away where you're like, will you tell Virginia like, oh,

453
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 3: the recency of the diagnosis is like kind of yeah,

454
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 3: that has that has a lot of texture here. I

455
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 3: think like what you're saying is there's there's like a

456
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 3: misalignment or they're just I guess he's not being understood

457
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 3: in the way that he wants to be, or she

458
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 3: is maybe ahead of him in terms of personal development

459
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 3: in a way in all these areas where she's making

460
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 3: money for the two of them, and she's lived independently

461
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 3: for a long time, and all these things, And like,

462
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 3: I just think there are about a million different things

463
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 3: in these people's lives across all your couples where you

464
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 3: have to find your way into them even though you

465
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:47,120
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466
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490
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491
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492
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493
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Speaker 3: I thought you said it was proven by science.

494
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 2: I never said that. I just said it was good.

495
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,239
Speaker 4: As I said earlier. It's when I said that the

496
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 4: political system couples are all about like figuring out how

497
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 4: to deal with someone who's other than you. Hm, it's so,

498
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 4: it's it's it's a little more extreme with Shane Clinton,

499
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 4: but it's just a little more extreme.

500
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you when you get into a relationship

501
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 2: to you never get into or I've been surprised every

502
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 2: time I'm on my fourth boyfriend and they're all really different.

503
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 2: If you line them all up and said what do

504
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: you have in common and it was that they dated

505
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 2: the same person, your mind would be blown.

506
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 4: But can I ask you and are you different in

507
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 4: each relationship?

508
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, that's a really interesting question. I think I provide,

509
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 2: I try to, you know, I actually this is something

510
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: I haven't really admitted out loud. But sometimes I find

511
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 2: myself giving the same wanting to give them the same,

512
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 2: like nicknames. I gave another one, and I go, don't

513
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 2: do that, do that because I'm realizing that's me and

514
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 2: the way I want to express myself. But then I'm

515
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: just like on an island by myself there for no reason,

516
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 2: right and so. But but that was just like a

517
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: really interesting thing. And I think like the thing about

518
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: all four of them is all their complexes were so

519
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 2: different and you never would have expected I'm going to

520
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 2: be in a relationship with someone that is that is

521
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: dealing with this kind of thing. You just don't think

522
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: when you're getting into something with someone or you're falling

523
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 2: in love with someone.

524
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you're going to meet that thing that that's

525
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 4: what's gonna show up, like TI, Yeah, I.

526
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,719
Speaker 2: Think one of the things I said about myself forever

527
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: was like, I'm never going to be in like a

528
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: distance relationship, and now I am. And I was like,

529
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 2: and it's just funny the things that you like, the

530
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 2: places you find yourself and the challenges that you have,

531
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: and a lot of the things that I find myself

532
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 2: dealing with is like how exactly did I get here?

533
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 2: Then you can deal with what it is.

534
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I'm tempted to ask you questions, questions

535
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 4: did you like with let's say, with these four people, Yeah,

536
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 4: did you somehow unconsciously kind of know something about them,

537
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 4: which is why you picked what you then found out

538
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 4: later on.

539
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 2: So this is something funny. Every time I saw a

540
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: picture of each one of them, that's I said, that's

541
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 2: my boyfriend, and I've been I was right every single time.

542
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 2: I don't know if that means that I was like

543
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 2: manifesting it or that I actually.

544
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 4: Know something that you needed and that's something will show up.

545
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 4: You spend enough time with a person, then you realize

546
00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 4: what you saw in that picture. Hmm, yeah, you saw something. Yeah,

547
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 4: I showed up a lot later.

548
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something weird. It's like, it's like I'll see

549
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 2: the photo. It's happening to me four times in my life.

550
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: I see the photo of the person and I'm like,

551
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 2: that's my boyfriend. I'm not sure how, but it is.

552
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 2: And every single time it's it's proven to be true.

553
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 4: And you can probably look back if you really looked

554
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 4: at what happened in the relationship, you can look back

555
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 4: and say, that's what I saw in this picture. Mmm,

556
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 4: I saw that quality.

557
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 3: Hmm.

558
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: That's really interesting.

559
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 3: But they're different strains or different qualities and all four.

560
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, because you're changing and you're needing different things.

561
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's just interesting. It's just like it's one

562
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: of those things. And I do think a common thing

563
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: about each one of them is in each picture they

564
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: were each one of them was performing a little bit,

565
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, And maybe I recognize that

566
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: about it. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like one

567
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: of our best friends, Jared was we dated a long

568
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: time ago, when he does this thing in pictures where

569
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: he just looks a little tough, but he's like such

570
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: a soft, cuddly, gooey guy who just wants to talk

571
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: about like Olivia Rodrigo.

572
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, but in his pictures it's but you picked up

573
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 4: on that kind of Yeah, I think I.

574
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 3: Saw a humor in it, you know that was that

575
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 3: what made you say that's my boyfriend?

576
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 4: Though?

577
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 3: Like, what was the thing about?

578
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 4: Sure?

579
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: I think I thought he was super hot, and I thought, yeah,

580
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: but super hot is everyone.

581
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 4: How things appear to us, but we don't understand why. Like,

582
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 4: somebody will show me someone who's super hot to them

583
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 4: and I'm like what, Yeah, but to them because it's

584
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 4: it's tickling something that matters to them.

585
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really interesting.

586
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 3: Do you find that I I've heard of this. I've

587
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 3: known about this thread where he's he's looked at a

588
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 3: picture and he's gone, that's my boyfriend. And I have

589
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 3: other friends who also kind of have that same knee

590
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 3: jerk thing where they're like, well, that's my husband and

591
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: then they will end up getting married.

592
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, what's your theory about that?

593
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: I don't really have one. Accept isn't that interesting? But

594
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't here it's the theory that's that's

595
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: the theory, is that it's interesting.

596
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 4: But they're picking up on something. Uh huh, and you

597
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 4: see a lot. I mean, you know as comedians that

598
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 4: you can express so much in like the tiniest gesture

599
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 4: of the face and the way the body moves, and

600
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 4: like you've expressed like a whole world in that people

601
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 4: are not conscious of. But it goes, it conveys information.

602
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 3: What about me when I completely misread the signals? Almost always.

603
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 4: Same more?

604
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 3: I mean, oh my god, it's so cool to hear

605
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 3: you say that to me.

606
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: Now where are you?

607
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 4: Now?

608
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: Where are you?

609
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 3: Why are you listening to him?

610
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: Always?

611
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 3: No? I I just whatever. I just I feel like

612
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 3: I cast a wide net and then I get a

613
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 3: couple of crabs, so to speak.

614
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 4: Meaning you're not looking oh no, no, no, I feel like gosh,

615
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 4: meaning you're not actually looking.

616
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 3: More dead on, you're not paying attention or sure. So

617
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 3: Matt's thing with me is always well, maybe it's that

618
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: guys are afraid to approach you or something. And I'm like,

619
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 3: and then what I've internalized with like parental voices and

620
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: just the voices in my head that are just all

621
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: the way back from childhood. I'm so sorry to make

622
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 3: you do this. Go Okay, it's just that it's like, oh, well,

623
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 3: like the worthy and the worthiness of my own sense

624
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 3: of worth is not like aligning with the possibility that

625
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 3: this could be.

626
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, that this is possible at all. Right, So, so

627
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 4: may I translate please? So you're saying that whatever noise

628
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 4: you're getting from the inside is putting a filter and

629
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 4: you don't actually see who's in front of you.

630
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 3: Or that I immediately write it off. Yeah, yeah, I

631
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 3: mean a lot.

632
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 4: Of noise coming from the inside and it's like getting

633
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 4: in the way of you seeing what's going on.

634
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: Absolutely, just so many super constructed frequencies kind of yeah,

635
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 3: amplifying each other.

636
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: I see you in my head as a turtle who

637
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: doesn't know your shell has some spikes. Sometimes. I think

638
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: that he doesn't realize when he's pushing, when when he's

639
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 2: being's drawing. I think you're with you withdraw when you

640
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: get maybe a little nervous, and I think that what

641
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,239
Speaker 2: you're picking up on is like people are intimidated by me?

642
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: Is I actually I actually think they're not. But you're

643
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: just you're you react a little bit more strongly than

644
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: I think you realize.

645
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: Okay, that that's my.

646
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: Read on it. As his best friend of fifteen years.

647
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, has he ever said that to you before?

648
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think he's I don't think he's made

649
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 3: the turtle of comparison, but it makes it's a great turtle.

650
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: Thing came to me just now. Yeah, I was picturing

651
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: one of those Mario turtles like where they have that,

652
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 2: you know, the ones you don't want to be around,

653
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: that fly down the and they have the spikes on

654
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: their shells, like a Bowser type really or not? Yeah,

655
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: you know, a bowser type, a Bowser type.

656
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: But not really, not like that. He ain't roar ring.

657
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: We's got jokes though.

658
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 3: What do you think is the what do you think

659
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 3: is the healthiest relationship in pop culture?

660
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: Mario?

661
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 3: Peach?

662
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: But peaches always know.

663
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 4: What's the healthiest relationship in popcor But you know, you.

664
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: Even told us, you know, I'm so sorry.

665
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, we're moving We're moving past because doctor

666
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 3: or even told us I know nothing about pop culture.

667
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 3: Why am I putting you on the spot and making

668
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 3: you I'm so sorry.

669
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: When you are the culture you don't need to know

670
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: and you I'm.

671
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 4: Going to say that from now on.

672
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: And you also, I don't know anything.

673
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: That's a good line, just when you're strolling down park Slope, like, listen,

674
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: I am the culture.

675
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 4: Park Slope's okay, nobody challenges me.

676
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 2: They're all doing their own thing. We do want to

677
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,959
Speaker 2: ask you, though, the central question of our show, and

678
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 2: you know, we usually do have people in the entertainment world,

679
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: and obviously you are, but you know, this is an

680
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: interesting thing to ask you, doctor Orno. What was the

681
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: culture that made you say culture was for you? Defining culture,

682
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: whether it be atmospheric or pop cultural that you think

683
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 2: moved you in a you direction?

684
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 4: Okay, I did think about it, but I'm a little

685
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 4: worried that it's going to be out of touch with

686
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 4: what it can happen characters like sound. So what I

687
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 4: thought were two things.

688
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,439
Speaker 3: One was.

689
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 4: David Lynch's Twin Peaks. Wow. Sure that was like when

690
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 4: that show came out, I was like, okay, I belonged

691
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 4: to this world.

692
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 3: Wow?

693
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 2: What about it?

694
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 4: The way it was unsettling, unsettling, going for the weird,

695
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 4: not afraid to go for like the unconscious material and

696
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 4: go really far into it and manifest it visually. It

697
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 4: was just like, oh, I relate to this. Can you

698
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 4: believe that?

699
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: Was? ABC? Can you believe that was on network.

700
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: Just like a network television show that would it would

701
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: never send a chance in hell now.

702
00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 4: But that was an amazing moment.

703
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: Yes, just real emotional texture and terrain and stuff that's

704
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: not easy to.

705
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 4: And a lot about like madness, about the madness of

706
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 4: like the psyche, like all the edges of the psyche.

707
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 3: Was this before you wanted to go into therapy?

708
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: Yes, I've already been in therapy.

709
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 4: I've already explored the edges.

710
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 3: Wow.

711
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why it appealed to you.

712
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 3: That's why it appealed to you. Was there another answer?

713
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 4: The other one was. Pina Bausch has this piece called Capemular.

714
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 4: I don't know if you've ever seen it.

715
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 2: I don't think so.

716
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 4: It's it's an incredible dance piece where and you know,

717
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 4: it's dance theater, and it's couples. It's all couples. But

718
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 4: it's just, I mean, highly recommended. It's one of the

719
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 4: most moving and intense and beautiful pieces that captures something

720
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 4: incredible about humanity and about relationships and both the appeal

721
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 4: and the impossibility of relationships.

722
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 2: Right.

723
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 4: It's a really incredible piece.

724
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 2: And which directly links to do what I do.

725
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

726
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 2: I love when the when the answer is clearly a threat, okay,

727
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: you know, like it's and I.

728
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 3: Actually enjoy it more when it's something that I have

729
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 3: not seen, okay, because I'm learning something.

730
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: What is it about the relationships on display there? Just

731
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 2: like they're they're very emotional.

732
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 4: They're very emotional. All her work is very emotional, but

733
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 4: it's also funny. It's always witty and there's a lot

734
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 4: of meta in it in all of our dance pieces,

735
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 4: like it's both like really sensual and very now but

736
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 4: also intellectual. But she plays a lot with gender in

737
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 4: those pieces men women men men women women and power

738
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 4: structures and dependency and independence, like people kind of jump

739
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 4: on each other, hold on to each other, push each

740
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 4: other away. There's a lot of longing and mourning and

741
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 4: aggression and it's like all the things that make us

742
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 4: humans's and beautiful.

743
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you get any sort of synesthetic isn't the

744
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 3: right word, But as you are intriguing with people, I

745
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 3: feel like you are maybe you are like seeing something

746
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 3: or sensing something that like is kind of channeling in

747
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 3: through something that is not purely intellectual. On the other

748
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 3: of course, it is like is there any description you

749
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 3: have on that, I think it would be.

750
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 4: I wonder if you guys, as actors and comedians, if

751
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 4: you talk about this. But you know, people convey like

752
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 4: a huge amount of information beyond the words they use.

753
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 4: Sometimes it's aligned with the words they use, but often

754
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 4: it's like of a different nature. Sometimes it's even opposite

755
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 4: of what they're saying. But you know, like I'm moving

756
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 4: my hands, like my eyes, like the body. You feel

757
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 4: it when you're sitting with people, All of this information

758
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 4: is transpiring between us, and a lot of it is

759
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 4: very unconscious. That's why I said, like years later, you

760
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 4: can look at the picture and then you realize the

761
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 4: information was there.

762
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

763
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it takes us a long time to understand

764
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 4: it in words and in our conscious mind. But as

765
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 4: an analyst, you're trained to be like an antenna that

766
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 4: listens to all of it. So like when I'm sitting

767
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 4: with patients, it's like I'm like an antenna that receives

768
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 4: a lot of information, and I've learned over the years

769
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 4: to translate that into material that I can think of.

770
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 3: I don't know, was that an answer, yes, absolutely, because

771
00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 3: even your body language this in those sessions is active. Listening.

772
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 4: I move, I move my face, I move my hands,

773
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 4: I move in my chair a lot, I'm in.

774
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 2: My favorite part of the show is the micro expressions

775
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 2: that that it picks up. Yeah, I mean, that's my

776
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 2: I think when the camera finds the partner who's receiving

777
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 2: the information and you can see them either working it

778
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: out or disagreeing or whatever it is, and then obviously,

779
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: it without fail, picks up with you where are you?

780
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? And I think that's my

781
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: favorite thing about the show, and it is you know,

782
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: it is a skill to be sitting and receiving what

783
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: someone is saying while almost yeah, what the other person

784
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 2: is going through, which is really one of the most

785
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 2: important things about what is being said. Yeah, And just

786
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 2: the cameras being hidden the way they are or placed

787
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 2: to the way they are is Yeah.

788
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 4: I can tell you that sometimes there are sessions where

789
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 4: the DP or someone who's been looking through one of

790
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 4: the cameras tells me something about someone's facial expression that.

791
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 3: I didn't see.

792
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: Ah wow wow.

793
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

794
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 3: Would you call it verite like because documentary isn't totally accurate,

795
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 3: And but I think the appeal of the show for

796
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 3: so many The reason why it's it's it's a broad, inviting,

797
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 3: appealing show is because it scratches the sort of voyeuristic

798
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 3: reality show it's that everyone kind of has like they're

799
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 3: based not everyone, but like I certainly do. And yet

800
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 3: it feels like it's it's very tee. It's it is

801
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: the truth.

802
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,919
Speaker 4: It's very tee because no one is influencing anything other

803
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 4: than me trying to help people get better. But no

804
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 4: one's telling us do this, do that, or make it

805
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 4: more this, or have the treatment end. Well, it's it's

806
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 4: the cameras are just there and the editors are just

807
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 4: waiting for the footage to just tell the story as

808
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 4: it is.

809
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 3: Sure, And are the lights on the sound stage mimicking

810
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 3: what the daylight situation is outside? Yes, I'm like, oh

811
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 3: it's look, it's yeah.

812
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 2: I'm in such a world right now after what you said,

813
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 2: I have to tell you I'm really thinking about it

814
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 2: like I was thinking about because it happened a fifth

815
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: time and it's worth a picture. Yes, So this is

816
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: years and years and years ago. I just got to

817
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: Nyu and we have a very close friend who remains

818
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 2: our one of our best friends to this very day.

819
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: His name is Dave, and I saw him in a

820
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: picture and he was from Rhode Island. I'm from Long

821
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 2: Island and we hadn't met. And it was his parents

822
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: who sort of looked like my parents, and his sister

823
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 2: who was exactly three years younger than him, and him

824
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 2: and we dressed similarly, and I could tell we were

825
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 2: from a similar like culture of upbringing. And I thought

826
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 2: in my mind when I saw that picture, I was like,

827
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: I have to date that boy. Wow, I have to.

828
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 2: I have to. And I think what I really needed

829
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 2: at the time was someone.

830
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 4: Who was like me, Yeah, you needed some twinning.

831
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 2: I needed someone who was like, you're like me, and

832
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: you're gonna be okay, you know what I mean?

833
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 4: Yeh.

834
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 2: And I think my first boyfriend, Henry, I was twenty five.

835
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: He's so sweet and he was coming across in the

836
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: picture as very cuddly and sweet, and that's I knew

837
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: I was due for a first relationship and he was

838
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 2: the one for that. Yeah, I had an ex that

839
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 2: ness me up. And I think what I saw in

840
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: the picture was like, that guy's gonna out of me.

841
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? You did, and you know

842
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 2: what I mean? And I think it's it's I'm just

843
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 2: working it out now. It's like that thing, it has

844
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 2: to be something beyond. I'm clairvoyant and I see a

845
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: picture and I know this. I know this thing. It's

846
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 2: your body telling you, like there, that's the thread we

847
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 2: need to follow, like, and it's a visual. I'm really

848
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 2: happy I can finally find that. Yeah, because now I

849
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: know it's like, you know, you have a reaction to something.

850
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 2: It's like telling you something else.

851
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 3: It's to fulfill a psychological need at the time, right.

852
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you pick up on the queue without knowing

853
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 4: our mind. Our conscious mind is so behind everything else

854
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 4: that's happening.

855
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 3: Yeah.

856
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 2: All your conscious mind knows to do is to obsess.

857
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, or to say hot.

858
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 2: Yeah hot, or like you know, like you know, then

859
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: send a DM you shouldn't send or yeah.

860
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 3: Introducing Eminem's Caramel you already love, now popped into a

861
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 3: totally new texture.

862
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: I'd say Eminem's are one of those truly iconic snacks.

863
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 3: They've just launched a brand new freeze dried innovation that

864
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 3: brings a whole new vibe to the eminem lineup.

865
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, what's not to love about Eminem's

866
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: by itself.

867
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 3: And if it's freeze dried, I feel like I'm in space.

868
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 3: Eminem's continues to be that girl. The crunch is unexpected

869
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 3: in the best.

870
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,959
Speaker 2: Way way, crisper than you'd think. Like you bite into

871
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: one and there's this little pop that you don't see

872
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 2: coming from something that still tastes like classic Eminem's caramel.

873
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 3: Sure they don't look exactly like the Eminems you know,

874
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 3: but they are the Eminems you love. They're perfect for

875
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 3: snacking when watching television, scrolling on your phone, or settling

876
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: in for a movie.

877
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: And I'm already thinking that'd be great to have on

878
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 2: handler watching the culture of Wards.

879
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 3: Yes, the best part is they've got that classic Eminem's

880
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 3: caramel flavor. It's available in stores now.

881
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: I'm gonna try one right now.

882
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: Amazing pop pop.

883
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: I really do like them. I really wonder what you think.

884
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 2: Have you always worked with same sex couples? Yeah, so,

885
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 2: I wonder what you think about just you know, as

886
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 2: gay men. Who are you know, in different stages of dating?

887
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: And this obviously is a big topic on this podcast.

888
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 2: I wonder what you've seen change or not change about

889
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 2: same sex relationships since you started practicing or working with couples.

890
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: To now, as the world has changed so much about

891
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 2: the way that we're accepted.

892
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 3: I can offer up the prevalence of open relationships among gays, yeah,

893
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 3: being more, being more.

894
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 4: Not only among gay men, of course, relationships in general.

895
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 4: I mean, that's one of the gifts that keeps giving. No,

896
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 4: I've been offered society.

897
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 3: I thought you were going to say, it's a gift

898
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 3: that keeps on giving for you.

899
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 2: The idea of it, yes, yeah.

900
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 4: The idea of it has been I think excellent. I

901
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 4: mean opening up all these like barriers. But but going

902
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 4: back to going back to that interesting question, there are

903
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 4: some I mean, I've been working for a long time.

904
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 4: I'm old, and there are some obvious things, which is

905
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 4: like earlier on in my career, game in would come

906
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 4: and there would be so much, so much palpable internalized homophobia.

907
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 4: It was like it was like thick. And it's so

908
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 4: much lighter now. It's not gone, not gone, but so

909
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 4: much lighter now. And there's so much more language around it,

910
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 4: and and just people have the capacity to think about

911
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 4: it rather than for homophobia to kind of clutch them

912
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 4: without them understanding what's destroying them.

913
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 2: That you can do it to yourself yes, yes, of course, yeah.

914
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 3: I maybe back a couple of decades ago, even like

915
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 3: there was just something death drive related to the fact

916
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 3: that like you know, like that like your your sort

917
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 3: of bill of health was so commodified or was a

918
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 3: thing that like preferred conferred status on people that was

919
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 3: completely constructed, you know what I mean, just in terms

920
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 3: of in like a pre prep society when.

921
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 4: Like yeah, you're talking about the AIDS, yes, I know.

922
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 4: And and that period of time that was like insane,

923
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 4: Like how much like homophobia got like wrapped into all

924
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 4: these other death drive it was that was horrible not

925
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 4: to mention that there were all these deaths that people

926
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 4: were dealing with. I mean that was like, yeah, it

927
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 4: very very complicated time period anyway. So that's on the

928
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 4: grand scale of things of how things have changed, you know, nowadays,

929
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 4: there are other big things that are happening that are

930
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 4: affecting not only gay couples, but you know, the sense

931
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 4: of like foreshortened future that there's less of where is

932
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 4: this world going climate, you know ai and which has

933
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 4: an impact on relationships. So I mean, I'm going to

934
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 4: make a generalization that I don't know if it's true.

935
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 4: It's just what I see in my practice, it's not

936
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 4: like a real study, but it almost had like an

937
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 4: inverse effect on gay relationships versus straight relationships, Like straight

938
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 4: people are less in a hurry to get into relationships,

939
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 4: they kind of don't see a future, and gay this

940
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 4: is vast generalization. Gay people are more okay with settling

941
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 4: into relationships and less kind of sure anxiously bopping around.

942
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 4: I don't know how to exactly theorize about.

943
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 3: That, we said to a friend on the podcast recently.

944
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 3: This is the first time maybe in like human history,

945
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 3: where we are mourning the future in advance. Yes, well

946
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 3: put and so like is that maybe part of it

947
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 3: where gay couples feel why not fulfill the psycho the

948
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,760
Speaker 3: psychological need for them culturally or whatever individually, Where it's like, well,

949
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 3: this thing that, like I was told was never available

950
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 3: to me, let me try to make that happen as

951
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 3: whatever quickly or whatever more and as fulfilling of a

952
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 3: way as possible. Yeah, and straight people are kind of like, well,

953
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 3: what's what's the point.

954
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 4: The point I'm supposed to be doing this, but the

955
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 4: promise is gone.

956
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 3: They're seeing examples of their friends with children and and

957
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 3: seeing how difficult it is to raise them.

958
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 4: And how do you imagine a future for them?

959
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: Huh, Yeah, I think it's I think maybe that's something

960
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,959
Speaker 3: I don't know, but that that that I don't find

961
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 3: that to be a generalization that actually feels you resonate

962
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 3: with that definitely, I think so.

963
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 2: I've definitely thought more often lately just.

964
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 3: The general malaise.

965
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 2: Let yeah, like even tonight, our friends are like, we're

966
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 2: gonna go to Jockstrap Night at the Eagle, and I

967
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 2: I'm sure you got.

968
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: And yeah, I know the.

969
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 2: Come with us be pleased and be too huge of

970
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: a hit. But I can't think of anything I'd want

971
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: to do less, honestly, And I do wonder if that's

972
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 2: just me getting older or feel like I already did it.

973
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 2: But I feel like in a world where it's this

974
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 2: idea of morning the future, yeah, I've already done a

975
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 2: lot of the frivolous, careless stuff. You know. There's this

976
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 2: song it's called If the World was Ending, and it

977
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 2: talks about, like the lyric is, if the world was ending,

978
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: you'd come over right just as one person, like I

979
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 2: just want to check in with you, like that, if

980
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 2: the world was going to end and we all knew

981
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,240
Speaker 2: it and we had an hour to get to someone.

982
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 2: You would do that, right, you know what I mean?

983
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 2: Like it's this idea that.

984
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 4: And I think, if that is ending, can we finally

985
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 4: just be together?

986
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 3: Right?

987
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:19,439
Speaker 4: Yeah?

988
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: If it was.

989
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 2: You know, And of course the song is written because

990
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: this idea is out there in the ether, and I

991
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 2: just feel like I've done all this. I know what

992
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 2: that feels like. I don't really know what it feels

993
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 2: like to be like secure, you know, this idea like

994
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 2: I've I've always fought with this idea of monogamy because

995
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm talking as a version of my

996
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 2: past self, you know what I mean, that wouldn't be

997
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 2: able or wouldn't want to not it's this thing I

998
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: have in my head about it, not meaning I had

999
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 2: freedom or something or why should it be cheating if

1000
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 2: you know, if this happens, it's like, but nowadays it's like,

1001
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's my general energy for all

1002
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 2: of that, because it does take a lot of work,

1003
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: or it's something else. But the I can wrap my

1004
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 2: head around the concept.

1005
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 3: Of it now.

1006
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 2: And I could have been just railing against monogamy as

1007
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,720
Speaker 2: a concept because that was the heterosexual concept, and therefore

1008
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 2: I didn't like it. But it's but that's changed. I

1009
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 2: think it's interesting you say that because I see that

1010
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: in myself, and maybe it's that idea of morning the future. Okay,

1011
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 2: for morning the future, maybe I should look at things

1012
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 2: a different way if we're morning. You know.

1013
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 3: It was a thing that was not available to us

1014
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 3: growing up in the sense that like we were watching

1015
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 3: our straight friends couple up and do the things like

1016
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 3: in middle school and high school, like just developmentally sort

1017
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 3: of like grow with the time and the age that

1018
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 3: they were or something.

1019
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: We gave that up a little.

1020
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 3: We gave that up. We never had it, I don't know,

1021
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 3: gave it up.

1022
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 4: Never had it, never never how to.

1023
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 3: Have it exactly. So I went through conversion therapy. Yeah,

1024
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 3: and I feel like I'm finally on the other side

1025
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 3: of it. It'll always come back. Yeah, oh absolutely. It

1026
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 3: was total quackery. Eight weeks. This guy trying like sort

1027
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 3: of like drip feeding it to me, where the first

1028
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 3: four sessions were like talk therapy traditionally, like just nothing,

1029
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:36,800
Speaker 3: no sort of dogmatic agenda to it at all, grooming me. Oh,

1030
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 3: how ironic and so uh, and then the back half

1031
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 3: was okay, let's walk through, talk me through a moment

1032
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 3: where you felt attracted to a man, and where were you?

1033
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 3: How are you feeling? It was like, how are you

1034
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 3: feeling in your body? What was your posture? You were

1035
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 3: hunched over? Well, that must mean that you were feeling.

1036
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 3: Were you in pain? You must have been in pain,

1037
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 3: and the and so and so. Yeah, so let's just

1038
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 3: start associating your your same sex attraction with moments where

1039
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 3: you were in distress.

1040
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

1041
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 3: And that was what was kind of so early on

1042
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 3: internalist for me.

1043
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 4: Wow. And yeah using CBT.

1044
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 3: Yes, it was full CBT, but like in.

1045
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 4: Like mind manipulation.

1046
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 2: Wow, And this is that violence?

1047
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 3: So the second violence? Yeah, and I should tell you

1048
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 3: the second to last session, Uh.

1049
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 4: Did you know that something bad is being done to you?

1050
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 3: No? I think that was That was the goal of

1051
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 3: the first four sessions the group. So the ultimatum was

1052
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 3: for my parents, they find long story short, they find

1053
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 3: out I'm gay, I my college acceptances are coming in

1054
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 3: my sister whatever. And so the ultimatum is either you

1055
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 3: stay in state in Colorado and go to school here

1056
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 3: and live with us, or you can go to New

1057
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 3: York and live with your sister if you go through

1058
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 3: this conversion therapy. The irony was that my sister went

1059
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 3: to NYU the gayest undergrad in the world.

1060
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:11,720
Speaker 2: They created one of the most publicly gay people in America. Awesome,

1061
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 2: I'm so happy that is.

1062
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 3: Oh my god. So I acquiesced and I was coming

1063
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 3: home with my parents like sobbing at the dinner table

1064
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 3: every single night. And I was like, I have to

1065
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 3: make as a child of the immigrant. I'm like, I

1066
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 3: have to make this right. I've like, this is this

1067
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 3: is the biggest this is a wound upon the family

1068
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 3: that I that is it's on me to heal. So

1069
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:35,720
Speaker 3: I go along with this, and the second to last session,

1070
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 3: you know, we're fine. I'm I'm going I'm like giving

1071
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,799
Speaker 3: it a go. I'm like, okay, my identity is malleable. Sure,

1072
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 3: I'm growing, like neuroplasticity whatever. My dad goes, can you

1073
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 3: give us referrals for people in New York who do this?

1074
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 3: And he's like, sure, I will come up with the

1075
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 3: list for the last session. I go home next week

1076
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 3: is the last session I go in. He wants to reflect,

1077
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 3: sort of put a cap on the whole thing. He's like,

1078
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 3: how so, let's just reflect on what this isn't it?

1079
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 3: And then we talk about it, and then he goes,

1080
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 3: I want to share with you an anecdote. But one

1081
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 3: of my former patients, his former patient of mine, was

1082
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 3: driving along the highway in California and his car starts

1083
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 3: to break down and he has to get off in

1084
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 3: San Bernardino. Not somewhere you want to be. He gets

1085
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 3: off at San Bernardino and he stops bout at Denny's.

1086
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 3: It's late at night. He goes to Denny's. He sits down,

1087
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 3: The waiter comes over to him, he's a glint in

1088
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 3: his eye, pours some coffee. There's a connection, and I go,

1089
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 3: am I gonna, am I gonna really have sex with

1090
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 3: this waiter. He switches into the first person and then

1091
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 3: he catches himself. Oh my god, and he goes, I

1092
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 3: mean my patient was saying, and I caught him in

1093
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 3: the lie. The blood leaves his face. Everything about the

1094
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 3: last eight weeks was completely.

1095
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 4: Clear to you, completely clear to you, exactly charade.

1096
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 2: Yes.

1097
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 3: Wow. He rushes to finish the session, and I leave

1098
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 3: kind of shell shots like okay, yeah, like this is

1099
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:05,959
Speaker 3: a lie and the diplomas on his wall are all

1100
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 3: fake or they're all just they're just matter.

1101
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 2: Even if he earned them, they don't matter in this moment.

1102
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 3: And so then he brings me out to the waiting

1103
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 3: room where my dad sits, and he's like, that was

1104
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 3: a great last session. And these are the names. I

1105
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 3: could only find one name of someone who does this

1106
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 3: in New York. And he's not even in New York.

1107
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:28,839
Speaker 3: He is in New Jersey. And then my dad goes, well,

1108
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 3: you can take the train out to Jersey every week, right,

1109
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 3: And I was like, yeah, I definitely, I'll take the

1110
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,399
Speaker 3: New Jersey transit to see this therapist once a week

1111
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 3: while I'm in college. H I knew in that moment.

1112
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 3: I think even my dad knew this is not point

1113
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 3: to continue never happening. Yeah, and that was like just

1114
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 3: the sort of unceremonious hilarious in a way, and to

1115
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 3: that whole saga. Wow, Yeah, but I'm still kind of

1116
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 3: like convalescing from this, of course.

1117
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, did you see Matthew and Jianny?

1118
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1119
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 3: Yes, And it's just it's it's it's so it's so intense,

1120
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 3: and I keep writing it off and people keep wanting

1121
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 3: to talk about and sometimes I'm cagy about it, and

1122
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,760
Speaker 3: sometimes I'm but I'm just like and I think people

1123
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 3: have the sense that I'm a reserved person who like

1124
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 3: shuts down associates and disconnected from things. And I'm like, well, yeah,

1125
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 3: I guess it's happened to me.

1126
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: This happened.

1127
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 2: There is like when it gets I hear you saying,

1128
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 2: like sometimes it it depends who wants to talk about it,

1129
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 2: because there is this sensationalizing that happens in the media

1130
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 2: about conversion therapy, like oh, can you believe it? What

1131
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 2: a sort of vibor And it's like, yes, this is true,

1132
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 2: but like when it's in print or something, and when

1133
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 2: it's for someone else, like it's hard because that is

1134
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 2: your real experience and it's very hard to walk through that.

1135
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 3: And I think an image gets conjured up in other

1136
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 3: people's brains about like me with like electrodes or whatever.

1137
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 4: It's like, actually did have that image, Yeah, I did

1138
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 4: think about.

1139
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 3: Like this, right, And that's okay because that ct.

1140
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 4: For women, you know, yes, that are like that we're

1141
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 4: too history.

1142
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 3: Onic exactly, yeah it is, and you would and I

1143
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 3: don't fault you for that, but I think it's just

1144
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 3: the portrayal of it in media or some such just

1145
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 3: makes it so that like people have this, like people

1146
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 3: project onto me like their their their condolences or whatever.

1147
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I think it was fine, and it

1148
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 3: was actually quite boring. Yeah, but what it did was

1149
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 3: very pernicious and very slow, and it's been very hard

1150
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 3: to sort of like wade through that. But thank you

1151
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 3: for listening to me tell you that story.

1152
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 4: Well, thank you for being open.

1153
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 2: Anyway, when people tell on themselves, it's so like, years

1154
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 2: and years and years ago, this is and don't do this,

1155
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 2: and no one would now. I was a freshman at

1156
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 2: NYU and me and my friend went into as a joke,

1157
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 2: went into the scientology building and we were like let

1158
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 2: we were like let we were like, let's see how

1159
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 2: crazy it is. And this guy gave us a tour.

1160
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 2: They split us up, by the way, of course, yeah,

1161
00:58:58,000 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 2: they gave us a tour, and it was I was like,

1162
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 2: I gotta get the hell out of heroes. At the end,

1163
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 2: he's like, Okay, just sign this thing and we'll go,

1164
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 2: and I just go. The last thing I said was

1165
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 2: what made you want to get into this? And he goes, well,

1166
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 2: for a really long time, I used to be really

1167
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 2: angry and I'm.

1168
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 1: Still really angry.

1169
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: It was so mad. And then and then me and

1170
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 2: my friend are like, oh my god, looking at each

1171
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 2: other like yeah, what. And I just feel like, ever

1172
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 2: since I came here, I'm not angry anymore. And we

1173
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 2: were like, okay, scientology times square at this juncture, eighteen

1174
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 2: year old me and Lizzie got the heck out of there.

1175
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 2: But it's it's I feel bad.

1176
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 3: The veneer always cracks though.

1177
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1178
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 3: It's like, even with this guy who like professionally was

1179
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 3: paying it forward in terms of getting people to go

1180
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 3: back in the closet, it didn't work on him, you

1181
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 3: know what I mean. But my last question before and

1182
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 3: I don't think so, honey, is now that you're doing

1183
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:04,959
Speaker 3: press for this and the years that you've done press

1184
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 3: for the show, do you feel like there is a

1185
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 3: kind of scaled up avoidance of transference or that you

1186
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 3: feel like you have to like be very guarded about

1187
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 3: your own personal life or not sure to me details

1188
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 3: about yourself so that the audience does not focus counter

1189
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 3: transfer on you in a way because they are parasitically

1190
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 3: seeing you as a therapist.

1191
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean that's been from the beginning of us

1192
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 4: doing the show. I mean the filmmakers who are now

1193
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 4: seriously they could be analysts. They've gone through analytic training

1194
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 4: with me. But early on they were like, well, you're

1195
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 4: you're going to be an important person in the show.

1196
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 4: We want you involved. We want to know a lot

1197
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 4: about you. And I was like, no, no, no, it's not

1198
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 4: going to work. Yeah if you know too much about me,

1199
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 4: because the whole idea is for the therapist to kind

1200
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 4: of move to the background to some degree and to

1201
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 4: let the action unfold, not to focus on me. And

1202
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 4: I think that's a very important part of the show,

1203
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 4: that it's not about me and my personality in my

1204
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 4: background and all of that, but it's about the work.

1205
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 3: I feel like you you probably have to be boundaried

1206
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 3: about that. In the promotion of the show, I'm sure

1207
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 3: people want to ask you things about yourself.

1208
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 4: You're like, well, I think people are well trained by now.

1209
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 3: Good. Yeah, yeah, that's right, because I'm even to have

1210
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 3: been very.

1211
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 4: Nice, good asking me a very personal question. Thank you.

1212
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 2: I was like, I mean, I'm sitting here thinking, I

1213
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 2: wonder at the Eagle if we can get into her therapy.

1214
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 3: Camera exactly, no problem, because I don't think so honey,

1215
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 3: we have a preview of what yours is going to be.

1216
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 3: But we'll go first, yea, to sort of set the

1217
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 3: syntax or whatever.

1218
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 2: I have a therapy based one or emotional based one. Okay,

1219
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 2: because I realized this today, actually because it happened. All right, Okay,

1220
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 2: here we go.

1221
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:53,960
Speaker 3: This is Matt Rodgers is I don't think so, honey.

1222
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 3: His time starts now.

1223
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 2: I don't think so, honey. Passive aggression because I think,

1224
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 2: I really what I hate about it. It makes me

1225
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,439
Speaker 2: feel like you think I'm an idiot, like I don't

1226
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 2: see it, and that's what bothers me. No, it's you

1227
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 2: can be but you were not being it because I

1228
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 2: think you know that I'm smart, but some people I

1229
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 2: think that don't or they're they're not giving me the

1230
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 2: credit that I don't pick up on every little thing

1231
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 2: that you say. Passive aggressively. I would rather you insult

1232
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 2: me seconds. I would rather you be aggressive than be

1233
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 2: passive aggressive because of the thing that's running alongside it,

1234
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 2: which is they're too dumb or they're too self involved

1235
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 2: to pick up on what I'm also saying, like or

1236
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 2: what the underlying meaning of it says, like I promise you.

1237
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 2: I pick up on it, and the fact that I

1238
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,520
Speaker 2: then have to sit with it is also a noxious

1239
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 2: thing you're doing. You're not saying what it is. It's

1240
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 2: something you want me to ruminate on. And because I

1241
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 2: do think so honey, I don't think so honey, it's

1242
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 2: working and that's why I don't like it.

1243
01:02:59,000 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 3: And that's one minute.

1244
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 2: But the passive aggressive behavior, I've realized, like is the

1245
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 2: thing that gets me the most.

1246
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 4: But that is the theme of our hour together, like

1247
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,840
Speaker 4: the idea, really we have a theme here, really, Yeah,

1248
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 4: because you're talking about the fact that the words might

1249
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 4: not be really what the person is conveying, right, they're

1250
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 4: conveying so much more, and you're supposed to ignore all

1251
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 4: the stuff, but you're picking up on all of it

1252
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 4: that they're being hostile and mean, and you're supposed to

1253
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 4: like go along with it. While you've picked up on it.

1254
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 2: Somebody said, like, just say it directly.

1255
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 4: Just have the words and the behavior match.

1256
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 2: Yes, this is what set me off. Somebody said, well,

1257
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 2: so and so is the only person that listens to me.

1258
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 2: And I was just like, right, I was like, I

1259
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 2: don't listen to you. And I was just like, it's

1260
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 2: a couple of things. It's like, you don't think I'll

1261
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 2: pick up on that and be upset about it, or

1262
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 2: that it would hurt my feelings, and that you would

1263
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 2: say it in a way that you knew would hurt

1264
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 2: my feelings when you know what I mean and not

1265
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 2: own it, but right, it's like cowardly. Yeah, it's like

1266
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 2: I do feel like passive aggression, like especially in well

1267
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 2: established relationships or relationships where you know there's a lot

1268
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 2: of care. I find that if I ever am like

1269
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 2: reacting in a way people are like, oh, you snapped.

1270
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 2: It's like I don't even notice I'm doing it. I

1271
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 2: think I'm just super sensitive to not being given the

1272
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 2: credit to handle direct information.

1273
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And are you hoping for them to give you

1274
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 3: that sort of directness and kind I'm.

1275
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 2: Hoping that people just tell me what's up, like you

1276
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 2: have something, say it.

1277
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1278
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 2: And maybe it's because they feel like I'm going to

1279
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 2: have an answer for everything, so they'd rather not directly

1280
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 2: like give me the information because they know that I

1281
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 2: react very quickly and I'm a verbal processor. But I

1282
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 2: still don't like it.

1283
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, like I'm with you?

1284
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet I'm with you, And it was just

1285
01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 2: but it's you know. I was again like, That's why

1286
01:04:57,680 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 2: I love the show so much is because it helps

1287
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:02,120
Speaker 2: you realize things about Yeah, because suddenly I'm like, well,

1288
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 2: they're right, you know what I mean? And then this

1289
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 2: other thing comes in where I'm like, oh my God,

1290
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 2: like you know, but again, had we just said the thing?

1291
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:11,240
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1292
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 2: But not everyone is just ready to say the thing yeah.

1293
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 3: Because there's a whole ocean of nonverbal communication that's happening

1294
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 3: under the word.

1295
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 4: And because we push, we repressed, we dissociate, We don't

1296
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 4: know everything. My conscious mind is a late comer.

1297
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1298
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 3: I'm reading The Lathe of Heaven by Ursula k LeQuinn.

1299
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 3: Have you read it?

1300
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:33,520
Speaker 4: No?

1301
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 3: Okay, sci fi novel written in the seventies about like

1302
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 3: a man who has the power to change the world

1303
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 3: in his dreams, and so he goes to a doctor.

1304
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 3: And she wrote, like the left hand of Darkness. She's

1305
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 3: like a very she's like a very queer, very like

1306
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:49,439
Speaker 3: ahead of her time, still ahead of her time, even

1307
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 3: she passed away ten years ago, sci fi writer. But

1308
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 3: it's basically his clinician understanding his power, like inducing sleep

1309
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 3: in him, but like influencing dream so that he gets

1310
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 3: what he wants. Oh wow, it's anyway. So there's just

1311
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 3: I don't know why I bring this up just in

1312
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:10,440
Speaker 3: terms of like that, in terms of the subconscious mind. Yeah,

1313
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 3: like having this kind of no and and and and

1314
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 3: it ends up being this, It ends up being he

1315
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:18,000
Speaker 3: is he's the villain of the It's it's the patient

1316
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 3: understanding what's being done to him, and he has to

1317
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 3: stop the doctor. It's incredible. I have a more frivolous one.

1318
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 3: I have a more frivolous but still therapy related.

1319
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 2: This is Bow and Yang's. I don't think so, honey.

1320
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 2: His times just now, I don't.

1321
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 3: Think so, honey. The white noise machine that side the

1322
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 3: therapist's office.

1323
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 1: Come on.

1324
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 3: I mean, I understand it's important for that for for

1325
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 3: that arrangement. Sometimes I want brown noise. Sometimes I want

1326
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 3: pink noise. I want different frequencies. And it's such a

1327
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 3: different frequency of noise. Got it. But it actually has

1328
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 3: the potential to lull you to sleep. But then your

1329
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 3: subconscious mind kind of comes to play. I just think

1330
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 3: I I remember feeling so stupid when I asked my

1331
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,280
Speaker 3: pri or, my previous therapist, when I would walk into

1332
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:56,880
Speaker 3: her office, I was like.

1333
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 1: What are those little dish things at the bottom of

1334
01:06:58,800 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: each door.

1335
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:00,240
Speaker 2: Thirty seconds she.

1336
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 3: Was like, those are the white noise machines so that

1337
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 3: people don't listen in on each other's sessions. And I

1338
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 3: was like, right, right, right, I don't know, show us

1339
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:12,440
Speaker 3: a little secret. Obviously it's confidential. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

1340
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 3: But sometimes isn't it fun fun of therapy where it

1341
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:18,120
Speaker 3: would incentivize you to go to therapy so you can

1342
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:21,000
Speaker 3: just lightly snoop. You can never linger, you can just

1343
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 3: kind of walk past to go to the bathroom. But

1344
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 3: it gives then it kind of a if it helps

1345
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 3: divert whatever unnecessarily unnecessary telehealth is happening, I'm all for it.

1346
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 3: And that's a minute, one minute. Some telehealth it's not necessary.

1347
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 3: Some of it show up.

1348
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 2: You must be a little relieved though, to have the show,

1349
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 2: so at some element of you you can be like

1350
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 2: can you believe this guy?

1351
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

1352
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:47,640
Speaker 2: Like you must leave some sessions like I kind of

1353
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 2: wish I could share what just happened with someone, but

1354
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 2: obviously I can't.

1355
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 4: Now you have the show, no I know, and I

1356
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 4: can talk to people about my patients. An amazing gift.

1357
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:00,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, get they let you way.

1358
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:01,720
Speaker 4: I don't use white noise machines.

1359
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 3: Interesting, I use music, what kind of music whatever?

1360
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:08,919
Speaker 4: I feel like? Okay, plays, but I don't like white

1361
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 4: noise machines.

1362
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 3: I'm sure you have wonderful taste.

1363
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, what, what's what's your what?

1364
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:15,080
Speaker 2: What? I don't know if you use Spotify or Apple

1365
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 2: Music or what? Yeah, okay, what what's what's on there?

1366
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 4: What's on there? My phone's in the other room.

1367
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:22,800
Speaker 3: Instrumental stuff? Is it?

1368
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:27,600
Speaker 4: At the moment. There's a lot of ambience ambient electronica.

1369
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, I bet you'd like one O tricks point

1370
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 3: never or something.

1371
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:32,639
Speaker 4: Oh. I just listened to them yesterday.

1372
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:35,799
Speaker 3: To him, he just he just played in Brooklyn.

1373
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:38,719
Speaker 4: I know. I know that daughter actually went to that show.

1374
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:40,679
Speaker 4: I was supposed to go, saying that was the last

1375
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 4: thing I listened to. Wow.

1376
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:45,559
Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, I'm with you. I'm with you. Oh you're

1377
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 3: so cool, Orna God. Okay, all right, of course you

1378
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:51,680
Speaker 3: listen to noise. All right, let's go. This is Are

1379
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 3: you ready?

1380
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:52,759
Speaker 4: Yes?

1381
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 3: This is doctor Orna girl, cause I don't think so, honey,

1382
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 3: her time starts now, Okay.

1383
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 4: I don't think so, honey. First of all, to ask

1384
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:06,479
Speaker 4: a psychoanalyst to rant is already a problem because we're

1385
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 4: supposed to like analyze all of our grievances and grudges

1386
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 4: out of ourselves. So no road rage. But I do

1387
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 4: have pet peeves go on. I don't think so, honey.

1388
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 4: I don't like people that come up to me and

1389
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:24,800
Speaker 4: ask me, can't you leash your dog? Look at this dog.

1390
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 4: I mean, she's like a love bomb, an angel. And

1391
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:31,680
Speaker 4: what happens on the street when I'm walking with her,

1392
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:36,639
Speaker 4: and she's just like schmoozing around, being loving and sweet

1393
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 4: and you know, the prettiest face. People come and unleash

1394
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 4: all of their old grudges, all of their entitlement, and

1395
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 4: they're just like, can't you leash your dog? And I'm like,

1396
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:58,559
Speaker 4: can't you leash your anger? And then I start self analyzing. Okay, okay, okay,

1397
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:03,679
Speaker 4: he's another person accept otherness. Maybe he's having a hard day.

1398
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 4: What's up with you? Why are other people bothering you?

1399
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 3: Uh huh.

1400
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:12,120
Speaker 4: So that's how an analyst thinks. But I do want

1401
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 4: to tell you, for example, that there are people like

1402
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:18,839
Speaker 4: I had this one guy that was standing with a stroller.

1403
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,720
Speaker 4: It's a dad with a screaming baby, like a lot

1404
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 4: of environmental noise pollution. And he's standing there and he's

1405
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:31,720
Speaker 4: watching Nico, my gorgeous love bomb, snooping around and she

1406
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 4: ran behind a building, like into the bushes, into the shrubbery.

1407
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 4: He just stood there and watched and watched and watched,

1408
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 4: and finally she came back and he's like, well, are

1409
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:45,760
Speaker 4: you going to clean up after her? So I do

1410
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 4: not like that. I do not like people telling me

1411
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 4: to leash my dog. I think there's a little bit

1412
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 4: too much righteousness in people who want me to leash

1413
01:10:57,439 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 4: my dog. I think they should leash.

1414
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 2: Their and that's two minutes and that is a lack

1415
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 2: of control on their part.

1416
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 1: And we let.

1417
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 3: You be unleashed. Okay, we unleashed and thank you for that.

1418
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:11,599
Speaker 1: The title of this episode is.

1419
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:15,000
Speaker 2: Unleashed Awesome, unleasht.

1420
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 3: Or what was it except otherness?

1421
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 2: Yes?

1422
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:19,880
Speaker 3: I like that as well. Maybe it's a maybe it's

1423
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:21,759
Speaker 3: a slasher. It's a slasher film.

1424
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 2: Part one except Otherness Part two on Unleash. Also, I

1425
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 2: just wanted you to know that we did not come

1426
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 2: in with the intent of you're gonna sit here and

1427
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 2: listen to us unpack. But I'm happy we got the

1428
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 2: opportunity to do it.

1429
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 3: That's what we do, you know, for indulging us that

1430
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:42,000
Speaker 3: just a little bit.

1431
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:44,880
Speaker 2: As two people have considered a couples therapy.

1432
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:47,600
Speaker 3: I am more reserved. Yeah, and and and then I

1433
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:49,559
Speaker 3: and I copt to that. I feel he is more reserved,

1434
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 3: and we and we have and yes, I think that

1435
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:53,040
Speaker 3: was also was about to say that, like, we are

1436
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 3: two people who have given a lot of thought to doing,

1437
01:11:55,960 --> 01:11:58,960
Speaker 3: like in the professional sense, like the couple therapy, which

1438
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 3: apparently is very common among podcast co hosts. What do

1439
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 3: you mean there's a lot of there are just a

1440
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:06,959
Speaker 3: lot of like duos, front facing like public facing duos

1441
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:14,559
Speaker 3: end up finding some sort of like analytical space for

1442
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 3: them to like work out.

1443
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 4: Oh I'm super interesting.

1444
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 2: Well, but also best friends, I mean that's what we

1445
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:22,000
Speaker 2: were saying. Like it's like when you when we when

1446
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 2: we were just best friends in our twenties and we

1447
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:26,800
Speaker 2: just started to start this podcast together for fun. When

1448
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:28,800
Speaker 2: you're like, hey, do you want to do this fun

1449
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 2: thing with me? You're not thinking, hey do you want

1450
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 2: to be in twelve years time? Counting my business partner,

1451
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:38,280
Speaker 2: the person that I'm relying on, also my best friend,

1452
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:40,639
Speaker 2: the person I'm next to on stage, the person who

1453
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:42,640
Speaker 2: has to you know, answer that email. You know what

1454
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 2: I mean. It's just a really transformative Yes, yes, transformative,

1455
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 2: all encompassing important relationship.

1456
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 3: You know, I.

1457
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:54,320
Speaker 4: Would love to hear about that.

1458
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:58,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, yeah, interesting.

1459
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 4: Yeah you when I have my podcast.

1460
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,320
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny because we like It's then that my

1461
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 2: therapist says, I don't think that you guys need it

1462
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 2: because we do communicate like well, but mediator was used.

1463
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 2: We use the word mediator if we just can't agree one.

1464
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:22,840
Speaker 3: Day, court mandated. Just kidding. This has been sublime for me.

1465
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:24,720
Speaker 2: To me as well. It's been such a pleasure to

1466
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:28,479
Speaker 2: meet you. And it really is. It is an endlessly

1467
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 2: fascinating show. And I mean that's just one way to

1468
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 2: describe it. I mean, it's just it. It really nourishes

1469
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 2: me to watch it, and again it makes me excited

1470
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:40,720
Speaker 2: to be in my own therapy. I don't know if

1471
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:45,599
Speaker 2: that means I'm a performative nightmare, but but it really does.

1472
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 4: Awesome, Thank you.

1473
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:50,360
Speaker 3: We end every episode with a song.

1474
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 2: What am I going to say?

1475
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 3: I have an idea, but it's it's just the instrumental.

1476
01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:57,719
Speaker 2: It just can't be loud because of of course hold on. Also,

1477
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 2: our tones of voice have been it's usually much more

1478
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:03,479
Speaker 2: of a gay scream. But this has to be a

1479
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:05,720
Speaker 2: gay coup because of Miko, because I know this is

1480
01:14:05,720 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 2: how you speak to them.

1481
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,679
Speaker 3: Okay, here we and hopefully we all get it. Okay,

1482
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:21,840
Speaker 3: here we go? Is the couple therapy didn't even.

1483
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:24,519
Speaker 1: By the way he positioned his mouth.

1484
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 4: I know this was familiar to me, and I was like, wait,

1485
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:27,679
Speaker 4: what is it?

1486
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:28,200
Speaker 3: I failed?

1487
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 2: I failed, So more of this stream couple's therapy.

1488
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:40,519
Speaker 3: Last Culture Racist is the production by Will Ferrell's Big

1489
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 3: Money Players in iHeartRadio Podcasts.

1490
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:45,560
Speaker 2: Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, executive

1491
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:48,840
Speaker 2: produced by Anna Hasby and produced by Becca Ramos, edited

1492
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:51,120
Speaker 2: and mixed by Doug Babe, and our music is by

1493
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:51,959
Speaker 2: Henry Komirski