1 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, five mans Voloscian Caroen. I'm curious 2 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: if you agree, but I kind of feel like in 3 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: the abstract, this idea of a kind of tech grace 4 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: or even a tech war between the US and China 5 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: has been brewing for almost a decade, but this year 6 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: it started to feel very real in terms of really 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: the practical power that China wields over the US and 8 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: its key industries. And he's a perfect moment for this 9 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: conversation and this guest, given the news about China's export 10 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: controls on rare earth metals. 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it isn't until we started reporting on 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: this show that I actually thought about how much China 13 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: dominates what the future will look like. And I'm just 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: not sure that the US is on a level playing field. 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean has been this kind of rattat tat 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: of one upmanship this year. There's been borderline frightening. Obviously, 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: the US took the world by storm with its AI models, 18 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: and then China released one that was purportedly far more 19 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: efficient in deepsek R one. The US band export of 20 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: advanced AI chips, so China started making its own, although 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: they haven't caught up quite yet and now there's this 22 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: reciprocal relationship between US tariffs and Chinese export controls on 23 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: rare earth metals, Which is why my ears perked up 24 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: when our guests today said this. 25 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 3: I really feel like Chinese and Americans are the most 26 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 3: alike people in the world. Both countries have a sense 27 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 3: of hustle, They are pragmatic people. They have a sense 28 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 3: of the technological sublime. 29 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: That's Dan Wong, who's a research fellow at Stanford University's 30 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: Hoover History Lab and the author of a new book, Breakneck, 31 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: China's Quest to Engineer the Future. 32 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 3: People in both countries believe they are great powers and 33 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 3: smaller countries Canada or the UK have to listen to them. 34 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 3: And they are also two of the greatest engines for 35 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 3: technological change and economic change as well. 36 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: You know, I never really think about China and the 37 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 2: US as like uniquely similar in terms of culture, and 38 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: I love this term the technological sublime, and I am 39 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: curious to hear more of what he's talking about. Why 40 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 2: is Dan the man here? 41 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: Dan's the man because he wrote this excellent book, but 42 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: also because he lived in China during kind of a 43 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: crucial period between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty three, and 44 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: he actually went there in part because it was during 45 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: the time that the Communist Party had set this ambitious 46 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: agenda to transition from being quote the world's factory I 47 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: manufacturing consumer products to becoming the world's leader in advanced 48 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: manufacturing so robots, batteries, aerospace, and Dan was there to 49 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: kind of study this transition up close. Then came COVID, 50 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: and Dan was actually in Shanghai during this zero COVID lockdown, 51 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: so he got to see these kind of two faces 52 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: of how China manages its economy is production and its population. 53 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: And he also had a lot of time to think 54 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: about the relationship between the US and China, what's similar 55 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: and what's different. The framework he came up with is 56 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: pretty intriguing. It's basically that one of the societies is 57 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: an engineering society and the other is a loyally society. 58 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm going to guess that China is the 59 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: engineering force. 60 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: Good guess, And per Dan's framework, this engineering versus loyally 61 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: disposition massively impacts how the two countries relate to one another. 62 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: Take the trade war, for example, China is showing strength 63 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: by leveraging its resources, production, manufacturing chops, while the US 64 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: is trying to maintain control through tariffs and laws. 65 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 2: But Dan is essentially saying, the US and China are 66 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 2: very similar in temperament and are tackling the same goal, 67 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 2: which is to be the world's technology superpower, but the 68 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: two are approaching it in very different ways. 69 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: That's right, And we talked about actually how in this 70 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: very heightened moment, the US is learning all the worst 71 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: lessons from China's political system, but also about what the 72 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: US should do, at least in an ideal world, in 73 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: response to China's engineering dominance. But I wanted to start 74 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: the conversation by having Dan define this paradigm China the 75 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: engineering state and US the loyally society. 76 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 3: In his own words, China's the country I call the 77 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 3: engineering state because at various points in the recent past, 78 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 3: the entirety of the senior leadership had degrees in engineering. 79 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 3: And what do engineers like to do build? They build 80 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 3: skyscrapers and highways and bridges, solar, colwyn, nuclear, you name it. 81 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 3: They're building a lot of these things. They also treat 82 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 3: the economy sometimes as an engineering exercise. And China's also 83 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 3: made up of engineers of the soul in which they 84 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,119 Speaker 3: are also fundamentally social engineers. So I spent a lot 85 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,559 Speaker 3: of time in the book talking about the one child 86 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 3: policy as well as zero COVID, which the number is 87 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 3: right there in the name. There's no ambiguity about what 88 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 3: these policies could possibly mean. They're very liberal minded about 89 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 3: engineering the population. I contrast the engineering state with the 90 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 3: United States, which I call the loyally society, because at 91 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 3: various points the entirety of America's leadership were all lawyers. 92 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 3: Most of the founding fathers were lawyers. For sixteen US presidents, 93 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 3: from George Washington to Abraham Lincoln, thirteen of them were lawyers. 94 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 3: Every single nominee to be president from the Democratic Party 95 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: between nineteen eighty to twenty twenty four went to law school. 96 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 3: The Republicans are pretty loyally as well, And the issue 97 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 3: with lawyers is that they block everything good and bad, 98 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 3: so you don't have stupid ideas like the one child policy. 99 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 3: They also don't have functioning infrastructure almost anywhere in the US. 100 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: To play Devil's advocate here, would it be fair to 101 00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: say that most empires on the rise are engineering cultures? 102 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: And most empires, when they get to maturity, become loyally societies. 103 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 3: There are certainly something to that. I acknowledge that though 104 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 3: the US has always been loyally at various points, it 105 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 3: was a proto engineering state. So I think between the 106 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 3: middle of the nineteenth century to the middle of the 107 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 3: twentieth century, the US certainly built a lot. It built 108 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 3: highway systems, Manhattan Project, the Apollo Missions, and these are 109 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 3: all extraordinary achievements by American engineers. And then I think 110 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 3: the characters changed in the nineteen sixties as people got 111 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 3: very tired of Robert Moses ramming highways through dense neighborhoods 112 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 3: in New York City, of the Department of Agriculture spraying 113 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 3: DDT absolutely everywhere throughout the country, and of all sorts 114 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 3: of projects that the engineering state in America was messing 115 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 3: up on. And so people like Ralph Nader really took 116 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 3: charge to tell law students that they needed to quote 117 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 3: sue the bastards, and the bastards referred to the government. 118 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 3: So this is where the lawyers turned into litigators as 119 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 3: well as regulators. 120 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: We'll come back to this idea of the tariffs and 121 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: the export controls that successive US administrations have used as 122 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: tools of leverage against China are very loyally. There's a 123 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: quote of yours which is the United States has made 124 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: the geopolitical mistake of bringing lawyers to a showdown with 125 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: China on trade and technology. Why is a mistake? 126 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 3: It comes down to a fundamentally different view of what 127 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 3: are American strengths and what are Chinese strengths. So, on 128 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 3: the one hand, China overproduces and the Americans over consume. Now, 129 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 3: the Americans believe they are strong because they have the 130 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: world's greatest market. They have the world's biggest market, and 131 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 3: everybody needs to sell to Americans. I think that is 132 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 3: true to some extent. If you control demand, that is 133 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 3: pretty important. And I think that the Chinese are saying, well, 134 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: you are a consumer, We are a production superpower. We 135 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 3: make all your goods. When the Americans are unable to 136 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 3: get essential goods, when during the early days of the pandemic, 137 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 3: they couldn't make masks and cotton swabs, when the grocery 138 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 3: stores ran out of particular barriers depending on which part 139 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 3: of California or Mexico had COVID at the time, that 140 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 3: made a lot of people quite upset. So I think 141 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 3: the Chinese are accounting on the Americans not to have 142 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 3: very strong pain tolerance to endure empty shelves. 143 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: When you look back at the last twenty thirty years, 144 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: whether it's the automotive industry, calm manufacturing, or whether it's 145 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: AI more recently with deep seek, what do you think 146 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: about the argument that wasn't that the United States was 147 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: too loyally, It's just that it was too bad at 148 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: enforcing its rules well. 149 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 3: To be clear, the Chinese don't lack for loss. I 150 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 3: think China drowns and loss and regulations. The difference is 151 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 3: that the Chinese have a very serious state that is 152 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,119 Speaker 3: very intent on making its will clear to the population. 153 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 3: If you're just living normally in China. I think that 154 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 3: there is a much greater degree of seriousness in China. 155 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 3: I think that there's something that unites the Chinese as 156 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 3: well as folks in Silicon Valley. Official China and Silicon 157 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: Valley are both very very serious. They're not only serious, 158 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 3: they're also self serious. You know, it's almost as dangerous 159 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 3: writing a mean tweet about a prominent VC as it 160 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 3: is done write a mean tweet about a member of 161 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:21,959 Speaker 3: the Central Committee. 162 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny you mentioned this because I was, 163 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: you know, as you can tell, I'm English and our 164 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: highest virtue educational system was rhetoric. And I was at 165 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: a wedding with a number of my English friends this 166 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: summer and they were saying, oh, you spent some more 167 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: time in San Francisco and Solon Valley. You know, should 168 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: we go and try and make our lives there. Guys, 169 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: you're your charm. What's considered your charm in Britain will 170 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: not take you very far because isn't not value as 171 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 1: of humor and conversational dexterity that a Cherish I mean, 172 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: it's I don't you think. 173 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 3: That, because there's so much self seriousness here that are 174 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 3: really charming plishmen, so do so many bright young things. 175 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: That's what I hoping by side, I think you guys 176 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: are mist guy that I think you're going to be 177 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: able to do it. 178 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 3: I've always liked saying that what Britain specializes in is 179 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 3: the sounding clever industries, namely television, journalism, finance, and consulting. 180 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: Now, of course, part of the mythology of Silicon Valley 181 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: is that it's the innocense, the absence of government that 182 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: allowed this extraordinary technological flourishing to happen, you know, from 183 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: the nineties to today. And I'm sure if you spoke 184 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: to Samiltman or Jenson Wong or others and said this 185 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: is a fundamentally a nation of lawyers not engineers, and 186 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: in China is the other way around, they would disagree 187 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: with you. 188 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they will probably push back, but I'll 189 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 3: hold on to my case, mostly because I don't feel 190 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 3: like Silicon Maalia is quite running the world just yet. Now, 191 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 3: it got quite close to when Eli Musk promoted to 192 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 3: be co president, but then Elion flamed out, so he 193 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 3: goofed and he was pretty promptly fired with this public 194 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 3: dispute between Trump and himself. Now, I feel like there 195 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 3: could have been a moment in which Elon Musk was 196 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 3: running the American government and DOGE could have represented some 197 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 3: sort of a return to the engineering state. But that 198 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 3: also flamed out really really quickly. And so I think 199 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 3: that it is a tragedy that Eli Musk was so misguided, 200 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 3: turned a lot of people against this idea of government reform, 201 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 3: and rather than building up government capabilities, he was sharing 202 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 3: down its capabilities. I think it is pretty clear that 203 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: Trump is still running the show out of Washington, DC, 204 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 3: that when he summons the tech CEOs to hail him 205 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 3: at a dinner, then they will promise to invest hundreds 206 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 3: of billions of dollars in the American economy in Trump's name. 207 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 3: And so that doesn't seem like the people who are 208 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 3: running Masters of the Universe to me. Rather, they seem 209 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 3: like obsequious courtiers. Now. I acknowledge that Donald Trump is 210 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 3: learning from China, but I think it's unfortunate that he's 211 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 3: learning some of the worst things from China. And I 212 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 3: think the great shame here is that in America it 213 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 3: feels like we're getting authoritarianism without the good stuff functioning 214 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 3: logistics and public order, the buildout of mass transit, and 215 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 3: the buildout of clean energy. Rather, what we're getting is 216 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 3: kind of the construction of guilded ballrooms as well as 217 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 3: detention centers, rather than the creation of more public works 218 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 3: as well as a healthy manufacturing base. I think that's 219 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 3: a tragedy. 220 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: Would it be fair to say that the thrust of 221 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: your argument is that, on the balance of things, an 222 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,359 Speaker 1: engineering society is preferable to a loyally society. 223 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 3: No, I don't think so. I would say that the 224 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 3: US and China both have virtues to teach each other. 225 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 3: My great hope is for the Americans to become twenty 226 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 3: percent more engineering. Because the US needs to build many 227 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 3: more homes for people, to build much better mass transit, 228 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 3: and needs to achieve the clean technology revolution, and it 229 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 3: needs to revitalize its manufacturing base. It doesn't have to 230 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 3: be like China in all respects. I think that China 231 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 3: is a good operating model for abundance. It's not a 232 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 3: great operating model for abundance. So I think that the 233 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 3: US should be twenty percent more engineering at the same 234 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 3: time I think that China should be fifty percent more Loyally, 235 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 3: what I really wish is for the Communist Party to 236 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 3: actually respect individual freedoms, to not strangle so hard the 237 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 3: creative impulses of Chinese and fundamentally, what I really wish 238 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 3: is for the Communist Party to just leave people alone 239 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 3: for a little while and let them get on with 240 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 3: their lives and just not feel like they're under the 241 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 3: thumbs of the engineering state all the time, such that 242 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 3: these engineers want to be engineers of the soul. 243 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: After the break, what China thinks of Donald Trump, stay 244 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: with us. Coming to the book, why did you write it? 245 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: And well, the key inputs and I know one of 246 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: the key inputs was living in China between I think 247 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen and twenty twenty three, when you do it 248 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: and what came out of it. 249 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 3: I felt I was living through a pretty momentous time 250 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 3: over that period, Donald Trump's first trade war, something that 251 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 3: morphed into a tech war I was living through sees 252 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 3: greater repression than the centerpiece was being in China throughout 253 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 3: all three years of zero COVID. There's something about living 254 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 3: in China which feels a little bit apocalyptic. You really 255 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 3: get the sense during zero COVID when you have all 256 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 3: of these videos from zero COVID times of people fleeing 257 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 3: office buildings or something because there was rumors of a 258 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 3: potential case inside the building, and once that happens, the 259 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 3: police will seal off the entire building, trapping everyone inside. 260 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 3: Imagine sleeping on the office floor with all of your 261 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 3: colleagues without being able to shower because they need to 262 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 3: test everyone in that office. And even for me, there 263 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: was a slight apocalyptic sense of the Great Firewall block 264 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 3: my website in twenty twenty two, which is when I 265 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 3: had to go see the Canadian Console General to ask 266 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 3: whether they needed me to leave in a hurry. And 267 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 3: that is something quite surprising to happen. Generally they block 268 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 3: big platforms like Wikipedia or Twitter or The New York Times, 269 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 3: not little RinkyDink websites like mine. And so to be 270 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 3: quite clear, I moved to back to the US in 271 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 3: twenty twenty three because I craved some of the pluralism 272 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 3: of the United States. 273 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: Talk about shin Zen. This is a city, as far 274 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: as I understand, went from basically producing cheapies for Japanese 275 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: consumer electronics in the nineties to being was the leading 276 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: auto producing cities and technology cities in the world in 277 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: this space of just thirty years. I mean, how did 278 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: that happen? And what would be necessary to happen here 279 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: to emulate a story like that. 280 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, Hinjin really started to develop throughout the nineteen eighties 281 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 3: when Doncaping designated it a special Economic zone, and Hinjin 282 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 3: really grew by leaps and bounds. This was the sharp 283 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 3: tip of the spear into China's foray in becoming a 284 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 3: much more capitalist in Chhinjin has been an interesting success 285 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 3: in all sorts of ways. Shinjin is most famously the 286 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 3: city that started making the first iPhones. So Tim Cook 287 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 3: and Steve Jobs before two thousand and eight decided to 288 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 3: situate most iPhone production in the city of Shinjin. And 289 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 3: I think it is no wonder that Hinjin is now 290 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 3: the global hardware capital of the world because once you 291 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 3: start training a lot of workers, hundreds of thousands of 292 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: workers producing the most sophisticated electronics in the world, what 293 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 3: that has produced is a giant workforce able to deploy 294 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 3: their talents into many other fields as well. So imagine 295 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 3: that you are someone working on assembly line making iPhones 296 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 3: this year, you're making iPhones next year, maybe you're making 297 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 3: a Huawei phone. You're after that a Dji drone the 298 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 3: year after that electric vehicle battery. There's just this gianted 299 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 3: supple workforce that investors as well as academics and factory 300 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 3: managers are rubbing shoulders with. And I think it is 301 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 3: no surprise that it has been an innovative leader in 302 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 3: producing all sorts of great electronics goods. 303 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: Do you think the US and Silicon Valley over values 304 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: innovative platform technology like AI coming back to this idea 305 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: of engineered versus lawyers and whether people in Silicon Valley 306 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: would agree with you. I mean it seems like people 307 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: here might say, well, it's great to be able to 308 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: put the technology to use, but that the real value 309 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: is in laying down the tracks to the future. 310 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. First of all, I wonder what the term innovation 311 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 3: really is. So I think the Silicon Valley model of 312 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 3: innovation is that you take Steve Jobs, put him in 313 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 3: a garage, put some LSD into the garage, and what 314 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 3: comes out is an Apple computer. And I think that 315 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 3: is a strange model of innovation. I mean, it is 316 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 3: a valid Silicon Valley model of innovation. But I think 317 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 3: with the Americans, really value is kind of this moment 318 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 3: of invention, and what I challenge Americans to acknowledge is 319 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 3: that maybe there's greater glory in the production and actually 320 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 3: owning various industries. So I think a lot about the 321 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 3: solar photote Excel. This is something solar PV was invented 322 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 3: by Bell Labs in the year in nineteen fifty four, 323 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 3: and so that could go straight into the history books 324 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 3: as an American invention for all time. But does that 325 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 3: really matter when China now owns ninety percent of the 326 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 3: solar industry, everything from the police and processing to the 327 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 3: final module assembly. I think that there's much greater glory 328 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: in owning a product rather than inventing it. 329 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: How do you view attempts under President Trump of technology 330 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: companies to onshore manufacturing and the skating up of technologies 331 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: not simply the creation of the idea. 332 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 3: I think it's not going great if we just take 333 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 3: a look at manufacturing employment. Since Liberation Day in April, 334 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 3: US has lost something like forty thousand manufacturing jobs, and 335 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 3: actually the data has stopped, so we don't know how 336 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 3: the manufacturing employment sector has been doing. I think that 337 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 3: it is counter productive to become a great scientific and 338 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 3: technological superpower by cutting a lot of funding to the 339 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 3: National Science Foundation. I don't see a scenario in which 340 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 3: we get better science by spending less on science. I 341 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 3: think it is a big mistake to frighten away a 342 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 3: lot of European researchers as well as supporting a lot 343 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 3: of the American workforce. Imagine if you are an engineer 344 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 3: today in South Korea and Taiwan, in France, wherever else, 345 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 3: and your boss is telling you you've gotten an assignment 346 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 3: to go build factories in the US. Maybe they say no, 347 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 3: thank you, because they've seen these images of South Korean 348 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 3: engineers who are trying to build a battery facility in 349 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 3: the state of Georgia being deported away in chains, and 350 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 3: that does not feel like a very good prospect. And 351 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 3: then this way, the Chinese were much more sophisticated. They 352 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 3: really welcomed Walmart and Apple and Tesla to build in China. 353 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 3: They welcomed the managerial expertise from the West because they 354 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 3: recognized that they were so behind. And I would really 355 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 3: love it if the Americans were able to have the 356 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: same attitude. 357 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: I've read about the reaction in Korea after the deportation 358 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: of the Hundai factory workers being seen as a kind 359 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: of watershed moment in terms of the relationship between South 360 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: Korea and the United States, in terms of how much 361 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: trust they could put in an ally that treated their 362 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: citizens like that. What is the perception of the current 363 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: US policies that you just outline in China. 364 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 3: Well, really hard to figure out how they think about 365 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 3: Donald Trump. But for the most part, rampant hostility I 366 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,719 Speaker 3: think is kind of a default mode that the Chinese 367 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 3: would greet Trump. Now, there is some sense in which 368 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 3: I think a lot of Chinese still kind of like 369 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 3: Donald Trump. He doesn't seem like the Great Satan to them, 370 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: mostly because during the First Trade War there was a 371 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 3: little bit of a sense that Donald Trump likes Chinese. Essentially, 372 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 3: he is very Chinese in terms of his business practices. 373 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 3: You know, it is very strange that Donald Trump keeps 374 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 3: praising Sees King. I dug up an interview he gave 375 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 3: to The Wall Street Journal last year in which Trump 376 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 3: said he was and I quote nearly verbatim, brilliant, so smart, 377 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 3: everything nearly perfect. And so you know, there is a 378 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 3: sense in which he wants to be friends with See. 379 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 3: But I think that friendship would not be reciprocated by See, 380 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 3: who finds this guy too obnoxious to deal with. But 381 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 3: that maybe these two countries can co exist very well, 382 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 3: because right now Donald Trump is the most pro China 383 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 3: member of the White House. So let's see how this 384 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 3: shakes up. 385 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: There were two kind of narratives that people in the 386 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: West reassured themselves with when it came to China's rise 387 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: and potential supremacy. The first was that the state control 388 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: over the economy in China would inevitably strangle innovation, and 389 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: that would ultimately lead to economic collapse. On the one hand, 390 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: on the other hand, the attempts of the state to be, 391 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: as you put it, engineers of the soul or control 392 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: the private individual, whether through the one child policy or 393 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,959 Speaker 1: zero COVID policies, would inevitably, because of the evidence of history, 394 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: result in seismic revolutionary change. What is the status of 395 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: those myths today. 396 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 3: I think the first thing to do is to recognize 397 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: that it is a myth that there is this American 398 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 3: narrative that China's poised on a knife edge, that the 399 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 3: Communist Party's entire basis for legitimacy depends on delivering economic growth, 400 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 3: and I think that is not the case. I think 401 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 3: that the Communist Party certainly values economic growth, but its 402 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 3: sources of legitimacy are more robust than that part. Because 403 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 3: there's been excellent momentum from the engineering state. Because if 404 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 3: you're a resident of Shanghai, what you've gotten over the 405 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 3: last decade are more and more subway stations throughout the city, 406 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 3: better in better parks, better air quality, as well as 407 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 3: well as around networks that allow you to go throughout 408 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 3: the country. The engineering state has managed to build quite 409 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 3: a lot of political resilience by delivering people a sense 410 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 3: of physical dynamism, and so I think that has given 411 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 3: people some degree of optimism. Whereas if you're living in 412 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 3: San Francisco or a bunch of other mostly blue cities 413 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 3: and your physical environment does not change almost at all, 414 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 3: the only way can imagine that your life could be 415 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 3: a little bit better, as if there's another coffee shop 416 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 3: around the corner, I think you really don't have a 417 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 3: sense that the future will be different from the past. 418 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 3: And so that is also something I'm really trying to 419 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 3: encourage that people have a sense of physical dynamism and 420 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 3: develop greater optimism too. 421 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: These is only a very interesting earlier in our conversation 422 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: about the United States learning the worst lessons from China. 423 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: Right now, how do you when you look at these 424 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: two countries next to each other, how do you look 425 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: at what those wrong lessons the United States is learning 426 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: are and what the consequences will be if it continues 427 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: to focus on those learnings and perhaps lose its ownership 428 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: of the American dream mythology. 429 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 3: I think it is still pretty clear that most of 430 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 3: the world's most successful people are still really eager to 431 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 3: work and establish their lives in the United States. There 432 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 3: is just so much more economic opportunity, much better compensation, 433 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 3: much higher levels of energy and dynamism in the US 434 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 3: relative to let's say Europe or Canada, and I think 435 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 3: that is still clear and obvious. At the same time, 436 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 3: I think the United States is doing its very best 437 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 3: to erode a lot of its attractiveness to a lot 438 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 3: of global migrants. And my view is that the United 439 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 3: States is a superpower in many dimensions and that China 440 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 3: will not overcome the US and all of its dimensions. 441 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 3: The US is also a financial superpower, it is also 442 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 3: a cultural superpower. It is also a diplomatic superpower. And 443 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 3: China will not overcome these sort of things because, for example, 444 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 3: it can't be a financial superpower because it imposes really 445 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 3: stiff capital controls on the financial system. But there is 446 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 3: one area in which China can be a very big 447 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 3: threat to the US, which is in advanced manufacturing. So 448 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 3: China produces so many things, and I think it is 449 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 3: on track to continue to the industrial the US as 450 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 3: well as Europe. Right now, America's APEX manufacturers companies like 451 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 3: Intel and Boeing and Detroit automakers in Tesla. They haven't 452 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 3: been doing very well for a long time. And that's 453 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 3: not mostly because of China. That's mostly because of their 454 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 3: own missteps. So I think that China will not do 455 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 3: very well rid large but if it wins even narrowly 456 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 3: on this narrow victory of advanced manufacturing could be pretty 457 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: devastating to the West. 458 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: Dan final question in a sentence, whatsh the United States do. 459 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 3: Build more and have a little bit more seriousness about 460 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 3: recognizing its own problems, not demonizing the Chinese, and recognize 461 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 3: what are the Chinese successes that it's able to learn from, 462 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 3: because the Chinese have done very well and much better 463 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 3: in learning from the Americans rather than the other way around. 464 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 3: And I believe that was one sentence with just one 465 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 3: semi colon. 466 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, appreciate you taking the time. 467 00:26:58,720 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 3: Thank you very much. 468 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 4: As for tech stuff, I'm Kara Price and I'm Oz Valoshian. 469 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis, Melissa Slaughter, and 470 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 2: Tyler Hill. Was executive produced by me Oz Valoshian, Julia Nutter, 471 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 2: and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvell for iHeart Podcasts. 472 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 2: Jack Insley mixed this episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote our 473 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 2: theme song. 474 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: Join us on Friday for the Weekend tech when Karen 475 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: and I will run through the tech headlines you may 476 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: have missed. 477 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 2: Great review and reach out to us at tech Stuff 478 00:27:51,359 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 2: podcast at gmail dot com.