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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from my Heart Radio. Longtime Hollywood private eye and

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Speaker 1: his term problem solver, Anthony Pellicano lives by a unique

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Speaker 1: code of honor, a code that has caused him a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of suffering and loss. In two thousand nineteen,

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Speaker 1: Pellicano was released from prison after serving a fifteen year

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Speaker 1: sentence for wire tapping, conspiracy, racketeering, and wire fraud. He

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Speaker 1: could have leveraged some of the dirt he had on

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Speaker 1: his famous clients in exchange for a shorter sentence, but

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Speaker 1: that simply wasn't an option for the Chicago raised and

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Speaker 1: proudly Sicilian Anthony Pellicano. In the early days, I was

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Speaker 1: very successful at locating missing people. So my career started

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Speaker 1: out really with that and audio surveillance countermeasures, which is,

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Speaker 1: you know, devulgating and a wire It's happy. I've got

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Speaker 1: articles about me and TV shows that it did back

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Speaker 1: in the seventies, you know, early some Yeah, I did

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Speaker 1: a lot of shows, a lot of talk shows. I

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Speaker 1: moved to California. First case I had was the Lorian case.

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Speaker 1: Who contacted you about that? Actually, John de Lorian did.

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Speaker 1: I just had moved out there, and my office called

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Speaker 1: me and told me that he wanted to talk to me.

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Speaker 1: And I told him that I was in California, and

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Speaker 1: they said, well, he's in California. I said, well, fancy

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Speaker 1: that anyway. So all my clothes and my you know,

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Speaker 1: furniture and all that were on the way out there

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Speaker 1: to be moved in. So I went out and bought

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Speaker 1: a suit and then went down to a law firm

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Speaker 1: where there's a bunch of guys sitting around a table

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Speaker 1: talking about FBI conspiracies, you know, British intelligence conspiracy and

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Speaker 1: all that bullshit. And so here's this, you know, a

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Speaker 1: little Sicilian kid from Chicago sitting at a table and

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Speaker 1: tell they're all full of ship. And I told him

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Speaker 1: that the Lorian Cohn, the government, the government con DeLorean

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Speaker 1: and the informant on both of them. So came to

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Speaker 1: pass that that's exactly what was true. And you know,

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Speaker 1: we won. When people wanted to contact you, how did

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Speaker 1: they contact you, Well, there were two methods, you know,

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Speaker 1: either word or mouth, which you know, after de Lorian

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Speaker 1: I was a hot ticket, or through attorneys, through agents,

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Speaker 1: through you know, personal managers, etcetera. Once I got known,

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Speaker 1: then it just spiraled up. You had an office, Yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: I had a a huge office at Sunset. I had

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Speaker 1: that office for almost thirty years the Luckman Building. Yeah

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Speaker 1: you remember, huh. I was told that I was the

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Speaker 1: only guy in the building that paid the rent on

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Speaker 1: the first of the month every month. Yes. I got

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Speaker 1: a big kick out of that. When people would contact you,

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Speaker 1: I wonder sometimes like, at what point did you begin

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Speaker 1: to feel Because I do believe the research I've done,

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Speaker 1: You're obviously a very smart guy. You're a very tough guy.

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Speaker 1: You're a guy with a lot of principles. You you

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Speaker 1: went through hell because of your principles. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: really really tortured yourself as in service of your principles.

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Speaker 1: And I really believe that we'll see to me, the

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Speaker 1: most important thing in my life was honor. In my word,

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Speaker 1: it still is till today, because they took everything away,

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Speaker 1: and that's what I've got left, and that's all that

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Speaker 1: really I really cherish. When I had a client, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to work from, they became like a

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Speaker 1: member of my family. And nobody works with my family. Right.

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Speaker 1: If someone is reaching out to someone in that profession,

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Speaker 1: and what they're asking them to do is if not illegal,

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Speaker 1: it's dicey, it's illicit in some way. Well let me

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Speaker 1: let me stop you right there. Because I was a

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Speaker 1: private investigator, but I was really a problem solver, and

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Speaker 1: I use investigation as a tool. So when somebody came

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Speaker 1: to me, they came to me with a problem, you know,

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Speaker 1: And the first thing I did, like I do always,

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Speaker 1: I have to define the problem in order to solve it.

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Speaker 1: And I never told anybody what I was doing. I

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Speaker 1: never told attorneys what I were doing. I never told

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Speaker 1: clients what I was doing. I never even told my staff.

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Speaker 1: You know. I assigned people to different tasks, and nobody

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Speaker 1: knew whatever the next guy was doing. You sound like

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Speaker 1: a florist. People say I want some flowers, You deliver

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Speaker 1: the flowers, don't ask any questions. This is this is

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Speaker 1: this goes back to my you know, to my early

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Speaker 1: days where you know, that type of attitude was the

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Speaker 1: attitude I wanted to keep. What happened in the early

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Speaker 1: days that shaped that attitude. Well, I mean, I'm Sicilian,

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Speaker 1: and all of the attitudes that I attained, I guess

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Speaker 1: are used and cherished came from that life, and I

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Speaker 1: still have that attitude. This is an attitude that you

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Speaker 1: developed when where you're very young. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: I was asked to and have written a novel which

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Speaker 1: will come out sometime, I guess in May. It's called

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Speaker 1: The neighborhoo It and it outlines, you know, the way

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Speaker 1: life was for me. Then this is a novel. It's not,

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Speaker 1: you know, a biographical thing in any stretch of imagination,

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Speaker 1: but it laid it out. And so you you developed

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Speaker 1: by association with people attitudes. And one of those attitudes was,

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Speaker 1: you know the attitude of keeping to yourself. You know,

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Speaker 1: sub rosa, everything is within you. You know, there's an

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Speaker 1: opera called Tourndo and he sings, my mystery lies within Me.

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Speaker 1: So that attitude kept with me. I I never never

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Speaker 1: forgot that, and I never forgot that attitude. What did

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Speaker 1: your dad do? My dad, he was a truck driver,

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Speaker 1: he was a doc foreman. He was, you know, a

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Speaker 1: salesman in the in the trucking business. And your mom

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Speaker 1: she was a housewife or she worked too. She worked too.

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Speaker 1: She worked for airline Pilots Associations for many years. But

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Speaker 1: you know, my mom and dad or divorced when I

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Speaker 1: was young, so I saw very little of my father

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Speaker 1: growing up. Did Yeah, what were you looking for? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know that when my dad died. He died right

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Speaker 1: around the time that I started working in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: I mean, working on a more serious level, I wind

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Speaker 1: up seeking men to replace my father. I needed mentoring,

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Speaker 1: I needed advice. This was a critical time in my

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Speaker 1: life where the decisions I was making I could go

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Speaker 1: this way or that way. And my dad died. He

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Speaker 1: was only fifty, had cancer in three Right when I

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Speaker 1: went to l A, right when I'm surrounded by people

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Speaker 1: who are and I don't need to tell you, Hollywood

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Speaker 1: is the Harvard of bullshit. I mean, there's more people

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Speaker 1: full of ship out there than you can possibly imagine. Listen.

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Speaker 1: It took me an entire year to get used to that.

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Speaker 1: I was used to people saying, you know, giving you

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Speaker 1: their word and keeping it. I was used to people

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Speaker 1: telling you the truth. I I it took me a

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Speaker 1: year to get used to Hollywood, and it was a

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Speaker 1: tough year because of the attitude that I had when

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Speaker 1: I came across bullsh shit. You know, I reacted immediately

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Speaker 1: and I got a lot of people's attention because of that,

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Speaker 1: and that's why I think I would retain attained the

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Speaker 1: respect that I got because I was a no bullshit guy.

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Speaker 1: I was straight, right in your face, straight, and having

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Speaker 1: to deal with it as you had to deal with

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Speaker 1: it was cumbersome. The old man told me, he says,

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Speaker 1: you've gotta be more careful. I says, listen, the sharks

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Speaker 1: that we have in Chicago, don't compare it to the

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Speaker 1: sharks that are in Hollywood. You understand what I mean. Well,

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Speaker 1: I would say to people that if you want to

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Speaker 1: make money, and you want to make real money, go

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Speaker 1: to Wall Street. If you want to spend a lot

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Speaker 1: of time with beautiful women, go into the magazine business

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Speaker 1: and the modeling business. I said. If you want to

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Speaker 1: have power over people's lives, go to Washington money, sex, power.

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Speaker 1: But if you want the cocktail of all three, money,

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Speaker 1: sex and power, that's Hollywood, without any question, and I

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Speaker 1: would go out there. And the mistake I made was

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize that people will befriend you while you're

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Speaker 1: working together, and the moment what you're doing stops working,

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Speaker 1: the friendship is over. Well, you know, friendship, you can't

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Speaker 1: even equate people in Hollywood with friendship. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: guy that I'm closest to in the world is Ron Meyer.

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Speaker 1: He's like my brother. I mean, he took care of

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Speaker 1: me the whole time I was in prison, never stops

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Speaker 1: came to see me. You know. He was a stand up,

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Speaker 1: no bullshit man. He's a rare breed. Yeah. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: getting back to father figures, I had lots of fathers,

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Speaker 1: you understand, because that's the way the family runs. You

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Speaker 1: had bosses, and you had this and that. But you know,

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Speaker 1: these were guys that I you know, I looked up

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Speaker 1: to and respected, and I respected that attitude and I

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Speaker 1: continue that attitude throughout my entire life. So going to

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Speaker 1: prison keeping my mouth shut was a no brainer for me.

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Speaker 1: At some point in your life, you pick up a

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Speaker 1: passion for, if not an obsession for gadgets and technology.

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Speaker 1: When does that start for you? Well, when I went

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Speaker 1: into the Army, I found out at that time I

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Speaker 1: had a high i Q. And they sat me down

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Speaker 1: and they asked me what did I wanted? What I

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Speaker 1: wanted to do? Well, I'm a street kit. All I

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Speaker 1: know is the street, right, And I looked around and

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Speaker 1: I saw a magazine that set electronics. So I said electronics,

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Speaker 1: not knowing the thing about it, and go in and

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Speaker 1: they may make me a cryptographer. Where we stationed well

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Speaker 1: at schooling in Fort Gordon, Georgia. But then I was

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Speaker 1: stationed in France and I avoided the Vietnam War because

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Speaker 1: of it. While in the army, I learned a lot

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Speaker 1: about electronics, and I learned a lot about cryptography obviously,

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Speaker 1: and when I came out, I started getting heavily involved in,

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Speaker 1: you know, audio surveillance. So when when people asked me

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Speaker 1: about wire tapping, you know, I've been wire tapping since

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty, never stopped. And the interesting thing about that

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Speaker 1: is the person that I learned about a particular recording

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Speaker 1: to ICE was Lyndon Johnson. Lyndon Johnson was the person

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Speaker 1: who put the Sony eight hundred B recorders in the

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Speaker 1: White House not mixing. So a Sony eight hundred B

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Speaker 1: recorder had a remote jack, so if you want to

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Speaker 1: record telephone conversations, and at that time it was really

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Speaker 1: real as you can imagine, what I did is I

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Speaker 1: devised a device that when the phone was on hook,

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Speaker 1: you had a certain voltage, and when it's off hook,

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Speaker 1: the voltage drops and it turned the record around and

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Speaker 1: every time they hung up, it would shut off. So

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Speaker 1: let's go away, way back. One thing I'll say about

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Speaker 1: Hollywood movie making, that's one of the benefits of it

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Speaker 1: is you can at times get access to things you

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Speaker 1: never imagined. And I wanted to talk to guys who

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Speaker 1: are part of the joint New York State FBI Organized

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Speaker 1: Crime Task Force, and we wound up going to a

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Speaker 1: really non to script block on like thirty second Street,

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Speaker 1: ninth Avenue. You're the middle of nowhere. Everything's closed, the

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Speaker 1: deli's closed, the coffee shops closed, everybody's all work now.

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Speaker 1: It's eight o'clock at night. And I walk in and

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Speaker 1: I go into the room and everything's been set up

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Speaker 1: by the studio and I go in and these guys

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Speaker 1: are there and it's an FBI wire tap nest and

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Speaker 1: they had the equipment there and up above was a

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Speaker 1: sign and it would say diminish four and they would

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Speaker 1: list husband, wife, parishioner, clergy, lawyer, client, doctor, patient. It

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Speaker 1: would tell them when they had to turn down the

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Speaker 1: volume and not record that conversation. Yeah, but they didn't

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Speaker 1: quite do that. Well, No, I don't know that I'll

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Speaker 1: leave it to you. But my point is this is

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen mid nineties, you'd hear this weird set

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Speaker 1: you here, like a big one, which was the guy

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Speaker 1: picking up his phone and it's a dial tone and

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Speaker 1: you'd hear boo boo boo boo boo boo boo here,

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Speaker 1: and then they know, now he's recording the equipment to

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Speaker 1: be boarding and real real, And then you hear the

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Speaker 1: guy go, Frank, what are you doing? Hi, Tommy? How

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Speaker 1: you doing Tommy? I went out to stand down and

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Speaker 1: talk to Joey about that thing? What do you say

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Speaker 1: that things will take care of? What about that other thing?

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Speaker 1: What thing? The thing would ray? You know? And everything

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Speaker 1: was that thing, that thing that nobody said nothing, And

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Speaker 1: I thought, oh my god, I couldn't believe that this

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Speaker 1: is the FEDS wire tapping these guys, these mob guys houses. Well,

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Speaker 1: there was a law pass where they had to minimize

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Speaker 1: they would have to record for a certain length of

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Speaker 1: time and then shut it off and you know, if

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Speaker 1: they weren't talking about something, you know, interesting, But they

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Speaker 1: never did that. But I'm the guy who coined the

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Speaker 1: term of forensic audio, and I devised you know, programs

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Speaker 1: through analyze tape recordings. I did the the eight team

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Speaker 1: in a gap, I did the sarvantep. Was it easier

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Speaker 1: then when you started or did it become gradually easier

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Speaker 1: or harder to do this kind of work technologically in

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Speaker 1: the old days of the old phone opening. If you're

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Speaker 1: talking about your bugging and while you're tapping and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff, explain to my audience what the difference is. Okay,

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Speaker 1: A wire tap is recording both sides of a telephone conversation,

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Speaker 1: and a bug is usually involved in a rumor and enclosure.

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Speaker 1: In other words, you know you because smart guys didn't

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Speaker 1: really use the phone to communicate certain things. They would talk,

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Speaker 1: you know, in their home in a certain room. You

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Speaker 1: know when when people asked me to come and debug

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Speaker 1: their homes, and I had elaborate amount of equipment to

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Speaker 1: do it, and I found lots of wire tap and

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Speaker 1: bugging devices. But I would tell them, if you really

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Speaker 1: want to keep a secret, you go out to the

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Speaker 1: golf course and you're whispering each other's ear and you

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Speaker 1: say nothing, Okay, you want to really keep you know,

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Speaker 1: what is a Benjamin Frankly that says the only two

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Speaker 1: people that can keep a secret, you know, and a

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Speaker 1: three person situation is if two of them are dead.

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Speaker 1: But one time I went to uh Barrett Jackson, the

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Speaker 1: vintage car auctioneer. We were shooting a film in Phoenix

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Speaker 1: and we went to the legendary Barrett Jackson and they

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Speaker 1: showed us pictures of I don't think we saw the

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Speaker 1: actual car that Howard Hughes had commissioned, where he did

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Speaker 1: an array of batteries in the back of this buick

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Speaker 1: or whatever he had. He wanted to be able to

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Speaker 1: drive into the desert in Las Vegas and have meetings,

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Speaker 1: and he wanted to have the air conditioning on but

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Speaker 1: the car turned off, and he wanted to be able

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Speaker 1: to speak with no potential for being bugged or eavesdropped.

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Speaker 1: But if somebody really wanted to you would have figured

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Speaker 1: it out. But by then Hughes would have hired you

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Speaker 1: already and you'd be in his pocket, you'd be on

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Speaker 1: his staff. I've been involved in many of those adventures now.

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Speaker 1: But let me ask you, so, why are tapping or bugging?

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Speaker 1: Was it easier then when there was a simple bell

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Speaker 1: system in the old phone company. What's harder than or no? Well,

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Speaker 1: let me put it to you this way. When you

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Speaker 1: turn on a recorder, let's say you have on the tape.

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Speaker 1: You can listen for an hour, okay, you're going to

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Speaker 1: record an hour. That means you have to listen through

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Speaker 1: that hour, okay. So it's harder back then, because in

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Speaker 1: order to gather the information that you needed, you had

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Speaker 1: to listen to everything. So I devised a device and

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Speaker 1: you know, computer program where I could selectively record. In

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Speaker 1: other words, when you dial your mother, I didn't listen.

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Speaker 1: When you dial Domino's Pizza, I didn't listen because I

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Speaker 1: programmed all those telephone numbers in there, so if you

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Speaker 1: dial those numbers, it wouldn't record. So it's a matter

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Speaker 1: of efficiency, common sense, and logic to determine what you

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Speaker 1: want to do. I was ten times better than what

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Speaker 1: the FBI had, you know, and it was all encrypted,

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Speaker 1: by the way, so if somebody were to get the recordings,

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Speaker 1: they couldn't listen to him anyhow, only I could listen

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Speaker 1: to him. I would imagine that with the work you

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Speaker 1: were doing, you had people come into your life, and

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Speaker 1: there's a legitimate need for private investigation. There are things

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Speaker 1: that people are stealing from people, There are things, people

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Speaker 1: are cheating on them, marriages, you take a vow you this.

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Speaker 1: There's information that people are entitled to and they have

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Speaker 1: to take certain steps to get that information, and all

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Speaker 1: of that is legitimate and understandable. At the same time,

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Speaker 1: the relationship we might have had ends when the work

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Speaker 1: is over. Did people kind of distance themselves with you

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Speaker 1: when the dirty work, as far as they were concerned,

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Speaker 1: was done. Were there's some people that treat you that way?

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Speaker 1: Or were there other people who actually were gentlemanly in

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Speaker 1: an ongoing way. I made a lot of friends. But

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Speaker 1: let me just say one thing to you, which is

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Speaker 1: an adage that I used all the time. People love

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Speaker 1: you when they need you. That's say it all for

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Speaker 1: you that say it all that does say it. I'll

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Speaker 1: share Hollywood fixer Anthony Pelicano. I've talked to some pretty

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Speaker 1: tough characters, from Jimmy Cohn to Eline Stretch and Joe

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Speaker 1: Delessandro who went from juvenile delinquent to sex symbol and

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Speaker 1: talked about the first time he met the man who

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Speaker 1: made him famous, Andy Warhol. I never thought about it,

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Speaker 1: about the modeling thing. I had a couple of friends

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Speaker 1: in New York that introduced me to other people, and

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Speaker 1: and then one day one of these friends said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I know this person that's uh making these campbell soup?

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Speaker 1: Can you know makes the candle sup? And I was

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Speaker 1: thinking we wore going to eat some soup, which I

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Speaker 1: was all for. Here more of my conversation with Joe

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Speaker 1: Delessandro that Here's the thing dot Org After the break,

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Speaker 1: Anthony Pellicano explains why he represented himself in court when

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Speaker 1: he was so well connected to some of Hollywood's most

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Speaker 1: powerful lawyers. I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening to

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Speaker 1: Here's the Hang. In two thousand two, following up on

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Speaker 1: a tip, federal agents raided Anthony Pellicano's office on Sunset

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Speaker 1: Boulevard and found explosives in his safe. For such a

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Speaker 1: careful guy, it seemed like an uncharacteristic misstep. Well, there

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Speaker 1: wasn't any laughing judgment. The Sea four and the grenades

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Speaker 1: that I found were not mine. I tried to get

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Speaker 1: rid of them. I'm not gonna mention who they belonged to,

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Speaker 1: but I put them in and my evidence safe. They

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Speaker 1: were in an evidence safe in my laboratory and my

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Speaker 1: forensic laboratory. Now I didn't know that thirty FBI agents

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Speaker 1: were to come that day and with a search warrant

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Speaker 1: and find them. So it just was a matter of

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Speaker 1: time and circumstance and bad luck. When they went and

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Speaker 1: searched the vault or whatever it was, the safe and

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Speaker 1: got the Sea four in the grenades, well, they had

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Speaker 1: an array. I had an array of safe in my office,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I was commanded to open them up,

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Speaker 1: otherwise they were going to take a mountain and drill

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Speaker 1: the locks. So I just opened them all up. What

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Speaker 1: do they find in there other than the see four

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Speaker 1: in the grenades? Lots of things they contributed to the

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Speaker 1: case that took you down. No, not really. There's only

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Speaker 1: one thing in the in the and there that was

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Speaker 1: a recording that was it, and that that was because

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Speaker 1: the client wanted me to memorialize particular recording, which I

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Speaker 1: never did, by the way, and I had it on

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Speaker 1: a CD and he wanted to keep that for whatever purposes,

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Speaker 1: and I had it locked in my safe. But no,

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Speaker 1: I mean the actual search warrants entitled the government to

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Speaker 1: do just about anything, which they're always entitled to do

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Speaker 1: just about anything. You know, when you're fighting the federal government.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to win. You are just not going

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Speaker 1: to there the litigant with the deepest pockets. It's not there.

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Speaker 1: It's not It's not only that. But they have immense power,

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Speaker 1: and people don't realize this. They don't know. People don't

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Speaker 1: realize the immense power that the United States government has.

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Speaker 1: They can do just about anything they want and get

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Speaker 1: away with just about anything. They what I mean, there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of things that they did that they

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Speaker 1: didn't have the power to do, and they did it anyhow.

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Speaker 1: I remember a famous actress and she was divorcing her

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Speaker 1: famous husband, and she joked and said that when her

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Speaker 1: friends would call, let's say, her famous husband's name was Bob.

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Speaker 1: And she said to me that she used to joke

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Speaker 1: that when her friends would call, she would say She'd

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Speaker 1: say say hi to Bob, and they go, what because

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Speaker 1: he knew that she knew she was divorcing Bob. And

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Speaker 1: she said, well, he's listening in right now. They're they're

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Speaker 1: tapping my phone, So say hi to Bob. And they

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Speaker 1: don't laugh and joke, and she she was like right

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Speaker 1: out there that this whole thing was going on. Well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people imagine it too. You know, they

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Speaker 1: assume the ratio from actual wire tapping to the truth

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Speaker 1: is probably. You know, when you get these phone calls

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Speaker 1: from people who say, you know, I think my phones

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Speaker 1: are being tapped, I tell them the same thing. I

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Speaker 1: could come out there with an array of equipment. I

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Speaker 1: can find it and the next morn and they can

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Speaker 1: reinstall it. So you know, anybody is susceptible to anything

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Speaker 1: under the right circumstances. Is everything wireless? Now, can someone

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Speaker 1: sit in a car out in front of your house

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Speaker 1: and listen to everything you say on the phone? Oh,

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Speaker 1: we can be able to do that back in the sixties, really, yes, sir?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. Well, if you use your imagination, you know,

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Speaker 1: anything is possible. And and today, with technology as it

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Speaker 1: is today, oh my god, you can do just about

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Speaker 1: anything you want, anything you want. So you go on

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Speaker 1: trial and you get sentenced to go to prison the

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Speaker 1: first round, and then we're gonna talk about how you

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Speaker 1: get to the end of that line, and then they

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Speaker 1: dump this whole other thing on you for this ungodly

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Speaker 1: amount of time. When you're in prison the first time,

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Speaker 1: what were you convicted of? Well, that was for the

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Speaker 1: CEA for in the grenades, right, and so and that

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Speaker 1: was sentence was how long? Well? That was for three years?

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Speaker 1: And you wound observing how long? Well? I finished that

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Speaker 1: sentence and walked out the door, and there were two

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Speaker 1: marshals who brought me back downtown and then I was

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Speaker 1: indicted for the racketeerian and everything else. And so when

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Speaker 1: that happened, do you think that these were people who

399
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Speaker 1: did this just to funk with you because you wouldn't

400
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Speaker 1: cooperate with them? Were they out to get you without

401
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: any question? Because they came to me with all kinds

402
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Speaker 1: of deals, and I, you know, I wouldn't talk about

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Speaker 1: my clients or lawyers or judges or senators or presidential

404
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Speaker 1: candidates or any of the other people that I represented,

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Speaker 1: nor would I talk about Chicago. So they wanted me

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Speaker 1: to cooperate, and I wouldn't. I'll give you a one story.

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting in prison and they come in and grab

408
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Speaker 1: me and they locked me in a caged room and

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Speaker 1: they tell me that I have visitors, And I thought,

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Speaker 1: my families here? Why am I here? And they says no,

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Speaker 1: it took him, you know, an hour and a half

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Speaker 1: to get here. I says, well, if it's who I

413
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Speaker 1: think it is, then tell them that now they know

414
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Speaker 1: how long it's going to take them to get back.

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Speaker 1: And I wouldn't talk, so and they were fisted about

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Speaker 1: that obviously. So no, they tried all kinds of machinations

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Speaker 1: to get me to talk, but I never would. They

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Speaker 1: sent you to how long well I I did. Essentially

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Speaker 1: sounded ten years altogether. So I did a film once

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Speaker 1: again in terms of this motion picture access thing. I

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Speaker 1: went to what was then Rahway State Penitentiary. The guy

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Speaker 1: that was the director of communications escorted me through minimum

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Speaker 1: security with some officers. We had bodyguards, and my goal

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Speaker 1: was to interview people in minimum security. They had a

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Speaker 1: maximum security block in the distance. When you say minimum

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Speaker 1: you're talking about a camp, yeah, I mean, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you can quote them. It was one of the most

428
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: mesmerizing and eye opening experiences of my lifetime and the

429
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,879
Speaker 1: stories I heard and the things I learned. It was

430
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 1: one of the guys that was one of the head

431
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: of the guards and he said to me, everybody says

432
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: they're innocent. They all say they're innocent, He goes, but

433
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 1: you can tell the ones that really are innocent. I said,

434
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: how he said, the ones most of them complain that

435
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: they're innocent, because but after about a couple of months,

436
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: they settled them because they know they belong here, because

437
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: they know they did it, he said. The ones who

438
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: are truly innocent, he says, they never adjust, never, they

439
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 1: never accepted one day. They're bitter and miserable. Well, I don't,

440
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: I don't know that I would agree with that, because

441
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: everybody was bitter and miserable. You know, I was guilty,

442
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: you know, I I served my time. I was guilty.

443
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,919
Speaker 1: They convicted me, and I was guilty. So but I

444
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 1: you don't You know, if you're a man, you don't

445
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: sit and cry about it. You do your time. What

446
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,239
Speaker 1: you do in time. You're sitting now. You might go

447
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: through a lot of problems and pain while you're in prison,

448
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: but that's what you're essuchially doing. You've given up time

449
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 1: of your life. That's what you lose. You lose that time.

450
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: That time is never recoverable. But you know, I can

451
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: tell you that based on my experience, I only met

452
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: one innocent person the entire time I was in prison.

453
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: How did you know he was innocent? Because the guy

454
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 1: that actually committed the I'm confessed that they let him

455
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,719
Speaker 1: out otherwise I wouldn't know. And by the way, you know,

456
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: when I was antisocial in prison, I didn't enjoin gangs.

457
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: I was my own guy. Were you asked to Oh God, yeah, sure,

458
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: but you know I I sith the claim I'm Sicilian

459
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: and I deal with Sicilians, So you know, go away.

460
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: And when you were in prison, did you have friends

461
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: and family on the inside, Well, there's there's a lot

462
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: of people that I knew that were in. But you know,

463
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: if somebody wants to hurt you, they're going to hurt you.

464
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: And I went through a lot of occasions where I

465
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 1: could have been hurt seriously, But you know, it's just

466
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 1: the way it is, and you have to live with that,

467
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 1: and you learn to live with that, and you learn

468
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: to get into what I would call a mindset where

469
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: this is where you are and this is where you're

470
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: going to stay for a period of time. Did they

471
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: offer you opportunities to talk and you could have gotten out,

472
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't have done a day

473
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: if I would have talked. But more I'm asking is

474
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: beyond the sentencing, is in an ongoing offer? Well they

475
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: tried a couple of times, yes, but that did work.

476
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: None of that work with me. You know, I was essentially,

477
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,719
Speaker 1: you know, a closed mouth, you know, which you couldn't

478
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: pry open. And they learned that and I continue that

479
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: and I'm still that guy today. I'm the same man

480
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: that went in. I haven't changed my attitudes, my honor,

481
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: my word, and all of that is still the same.

482
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: So you know, you've got to be stand up or

483
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: you're not. You're gonna be honorable or you're not. That's

484
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: not a thing that you could learn. You're born with me.

485
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: I mean, there's lots of things in prison that would

486
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: make you, you know, give you pause. But that's just

487
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: the way it is. And by the way, I came

488
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: across more, you know, circumstances while I was free that

489
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: were more dangerous than when I was in prison. So

490
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: you know, I call it time and circumstance. Why did

491
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: you present yourself in court? You knew some pretty powerful lawyers,

492
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: and you had worked for some pretty powerful lawyers. What

493
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: happened to them? Yeah, but nobody knew more about me

494
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: than me. And I wasn't going to talk and I

495
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: wasn't going to interrogate my own clients. I told everybody

496
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 1: to tell the truth, and that's what I wanted everybody

497
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: to do. There's no sense of people going to prison

498
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: with me, I said, everybody, including my employees. You know,

499
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: they gave a bunch of people immunity anyhow. But I

500
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: told everybody to tell the truth. Why do you have

501
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: to suffer because I'm going to suffer. I'm not I'm

502
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: not that kind of guy and I and I wouldn't

503
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 1: testify against somebody else to save myself. But did you

504
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: also think that a lawyer would try to get you

505
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: to cut a deal? Like did you say to use

506
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: off y waste time? Because any lawyer is going to

507
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: say cut the deal, Well, they're gonna be frank with you.

508
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: I don't know anybody smart enough they handle that case.

509
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: And what I did as I went through the machinations,

510
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: I did subcross examinations and I saved clients by asking

511
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: them questions that would exonerate them, you know, So I

512
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: did that. I still was the loyal guy that I

513
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: always had been, even though I was in trial and

514
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: I knew it wasn't gonna win. There was no way

515
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: of winning. Did I know that the judge was going

516
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 1: to slam me? No? I thought that I was going

517
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: to do about five years. I never thought that I

518
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: would get the kind of time I did. But I

519
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 1: realized when the prosecutors told me that they were going

520
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: to very aggressively sentence me, you know, and I just

521
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: looked at him and do that. I said, do the

522
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: funk what you want to do. They're not going to

523
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: hurt me. I'm going to do whatever time the judge

524
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: gives me, and that's going to be it. But getting

525
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: back to being represented, what could a lawyer do that

526
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: could help me? Nothing? What could I do for myself?

527
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: I could be myself and help me. So no, I

528
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: mean there was a lot of a ton of lawyers

529
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: that wanted to represent me for the publicity alone. You

530
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: got out of prison, win. Oh. I got to prison

531
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: my seventy feet birthday in March two thousand nine. So

532
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: it was pre pandemic. Yeah, although in two thousand in

533
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: seventeen that we had an outbreak of the flu that

534
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: was awful. As a matter of fact, I don't know

535
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: how to say this without something glib, but it was

536
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: worse than what it is here. I had a fever

537
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: for two days, a hundred two fever for two days,

538
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: and had that flu for six weeks, so it was

539
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: pretty awful. And everybody on the tier who gets the flu,

540
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: I mean, someone on the tier gets the flu. Everybody

541
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: in the tear gets the flu. There's no escaping anything.

542
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: When you're you're in a cage and there's no way

543
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: escaping it. You've got the very poor circulation, ventilation, et cetera.

544
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: So you're gonna get it. So you just get it,

545
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: and you just bear through it. And in prison, they

546
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: don't give you any medication. You know, they tell you

547
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: drink lots of water. I don't know if you ever

548
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: heard that growing up, when you have the flu, drink

549
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: lots of water. That's what they tell you. That. They

550
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: don't even give you a title. And now, now I

551
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: would imagine that there are people who erroneously compare the

552
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: pandemic to being locked down. That's kind of silly. They'll

553
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: sit there and say, hey, you get out of prison,

554
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: and now we're in a pandemic and everybody's locked down again.

555
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: But I'm sure like they don't know what lockdown is

556
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: until you go to prison, No fucking way, exactly. I

557
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: was in a hole for two of the years that

558
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: I was in prison. Why, But that's that's the reason

559
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: you know that. You know, that's serious time when you're

560
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: locked in a room with a little porthole and nobody

561
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: comes to the door except to feed you. So yeah,

562
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: I would imagine. Another thing is that when you're in prison.

563
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: This is what occurred to me. This may sound tried.

564
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of horrible things about prison.

565
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: I have always had. I've always maintained this fascination. Someone

566
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: said to me, if you had your life to do

567
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: over again, what are some of the other careers. There's

568
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: a little bit of a bouquet here of careers. I

569
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: might have psychiatrists. I find that very stating, and one

570
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: of them is to be in penology, to be the

571
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: warden of a prison. Oh you don't want to do that. Well.

572
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: What I wanted to explore was this idea that when

573
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: I did the Rahway thing again, because which was so informative.

574
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: You know, one guy says to me, I'm with a

575
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: white guy that looks like Gene Hackman. I said, what

576
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: did you do? He said he was? He said I

577
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: was a stick up man. He said, what was the game?

578
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: He said, One rule was always have your gun with you.

579
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: Never be with the biggest crime was to not have

580
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: your gun. I said, why, He goes, because if I

581
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: go to the gas station and the little old ladies

582
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: there by the counter and she has nine hundred bucks

583
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: in the register and none of my gun, that costs

584
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: me nine hundred bucks. He said, always have your gun

585
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: with you. Another guy said to me, when you get up,

586
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: this was my favorite one. He I go, what's the

587
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: first thing you do when you get out of prison?

588
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: He says, you get a girlfriend. And it was a pause, like, oh,

589
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: of course I get that. He goes, no, no, not

590
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: for that. He said, you need to have someone to

591
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: funnel all your paperwork through. I can't get a lease,

592
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: I can't get a bank account, I can't get a

593
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: phone turned on. You gotta get a girlfriend who you

594
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: can get everything turned on for you, so you can

595
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: kind of funnel all your administrative stuff through. But my

596
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: point is is that I was kind of shattered by

597
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: the idea that one guy said to me. He goes,

598
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: you go into prison. He said, you're in prison for

599
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: a month, two months, three months. You're sorry, if it's

600
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: a non violent craft, you didn't murder somebody. He goes,

601
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: you're in prison, four months, five months, six months. You're

602
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: really sorry, said, You're in prison for nine months. He said,

603
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: you're so fucking sorry. He goes, you keep me there

604
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: one day more than a year. He goes, I ain't

605
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: sorry anymore. Fuck you that you made me stay in

606
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: here all this time for something mine or like drugs

607
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: or what have you. My attitude was just the opposite.

608
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 1: I knew I was going to be in prison for

609
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: a long time, and I just settled in. What I

610
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: wanted to do is keep my mind active. My mind

611
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: was my most valuable possession. How did you do that? Oh?

612
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: I did all kinds of things. I read like two

613
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: thousand bucks while I was at prison. I wrote, I

614
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: did lots of high level geometry that took like five

615
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: hours a day. One problem took me nine days to

616
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: figure out. And when the lights go out, I developed

617
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: a technique and I call them, you know, memory movies.

618
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: It took me seven years to do this, by the way,

619
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: where I could selectively play back things in my life

620
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: that made me happy and ignore the things that didn't

621
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: make me happy. You play all kinds of games, mind games,

622
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: you know, to keep yourself sane and keep yourself active

623
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: and keep your brain working. Because otherwise you stagnate. And

624
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: if you're a guy that only wants to work out

625
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: all day, that's all you're gonna do. And at the

626
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: end of your prison term, that's all you got in

627
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: your pocket is that you worked out. You might have

628
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: developed some muscles, you might have developed a more healthy diet,

629
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: you understand, but that's all you got. And I refuse

630
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: to walk out of prison. You know, dumber than I

631
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: was when I came in, So I continue to educate myself.

632
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: Former private investigator Anthony Pellicano. If you're enjoying this conversation,

633
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the

634
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: thing on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts or

635
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Anthony

636
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: Pellicano talks about finding ways to care for others while

637
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:35,240
Speaker 1: in prison. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's

638
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: the thing. Anthony Pellicano refused to talk when he was

639
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: in prison, not just to the Feds, but to other

640
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: inmates as well well. I was in rooms by myself,

641
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,479
Speaker 1: I was at cells, I was for a lot of time,

642
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: I was in a cage, okay, but there are times

643
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: that you're in a you're in a dormitory situation, whether

644
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 1: you're with the roommate, you know, two guys, four guys,

645
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: room full of people. I would imagine that for me,

646
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: the temptation to pass time would be just to talk

647
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,919
Speaker 1: to people and shoot the ship. And did you find

648
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: you were incapable of telling them about your life because

649
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: of confidentiality, Well, listen if you're if you're gonna ask

650
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: me that I talk about what I did, No for

651
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: a mirrorment of reasons, because usually when people are asking

652
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: you questions while you're in prison, so that they can

653
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: use that information to try to get a better deal

654
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: for themselves to get out of jail. So you learn,

655
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: you learned, you just tell nobody a fucking thing. Yeah.

656
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: But I had such respect when I was in prison

657
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: because of my attitudes and because of who I was,

658
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: that I had many many sons. I had many, many

659
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 1: guys that I would mentor many many you know people

660
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: that I would advise about cases. I got like six

661
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: guys out of prison, and that was pretty much because

662
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: I was bored. I mean, I give you this one occasion,

663
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: the white shot caller came to me and says, you know,

664
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: I'd like you to help me. I said, I'm not interested.

665
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: He says, well, could you can I tell you about it?

666
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: I said no, I'm not interested. So he kept coming

667
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: back to me and coming back to me, and one

668
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: day he said the following words to me that changed

669
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: my mind. He says, my mother and father have been

670
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: calling my lawyer and and he won't return their phone calls.

671
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: So I says, well, they gotta have try harder, and

672
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: I walked away. He says, don't We've tried, We've done this.

673
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: I says, well, at the end of the day, what

674
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: is your lawyer doing for you? And then he paused,

675
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,439
Speaker 1: and I said, wait a minute. When's the last time

676
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: you saw your lawyer. He says, a year and a

677
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 1: half ago. I said, excuse me, I told him. I said,

678
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: you said, your mother and father are calling your lawyer

679
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: and he's not taking their calls or you're speaking to

680
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: her receptions. Yes, you bring me their telephone bills for

681
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: three months, and you go downstairs and you asked for

682
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: a list of all your phone calls because you say

683
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,439
Speaker 1: you were calling to well. Three months later, he got

684
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: all of this accumulated. So I wrote a letter to

685
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: the judge for him, saying that he hasn't seen his lawyer.

686
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: His lawyer has been inattentive, he won't answer his mother's

687
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: phone calls. I write this nice letter to the judge.

688
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: Two days later, gets called before the judge, and a

689
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: judge realms out his attorney and realms out the prosecutor.

690
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: He said, young man, how long have you been you

691
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: know here in the MDC. He says, five years, Your

692
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: hon her, he says, time served. Walked that kid out

693
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: the door that day. Okay, but yeah, but that's you

694
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: see that that all that took was logic and common sense. Well,

695
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: and also that you cared. He was lucky to meet you.

696
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: You cared in the way that you hoped your lawyer

697
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: would care. You just said the magic four letter word care.

698
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: Because people say they're gonna do this prison reform, they're

699
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: gonna do all of these things. I said, it has

700
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: to start with the four letter word. Somebody has to care.

701
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: Somebody has to go to somebody who goes to somebody

702
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: who goes to somebody, and that whole line of people

703
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: that you go through, they all have to care. If

704
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: they if somebody along that line doesn't care, you're dead.

705
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: You know, you can go all the way to a congressman.

706
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: And if your congressman doesn't care, you're dead, that's amazing,

707
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: that's amazing. I read somewhere that you were approached about

708
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 1: getting involved somehow in the Michael Jackson case. Represented Michael Jackson,

709
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: you representative, and what happened. What I do is when

710
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: somebody is accused of something, and I didn't handle that

711
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: many criminal cases, so you understand I do just the

712
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: opposite of what you would think. I try to prove

713
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: their guilty. I go out and do everything in my

714
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: power to prove that they're guilty. If I can't, then

715
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: the chances that they'll tell me the truth. But it

716
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: came a point in time with Michael Jackson that I

717
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: learned some things and I quit. I fired him. No,

718
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: I learned the truth. I fired him, and I was

719
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: end of that. And by the way, I gotta offered

720
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: tons of money to tell that story, and I have

721
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: never well, I you're the only person I know who

722
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: by closing his mouth and simply doing nothing and saying

723
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: nothing has cost yourself tens of millions of dollars. But anyway,

724
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: a plus years of your life. Um, you got at

725
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: a prison in two thousand nineteen, and of course we're

726
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 1: in the COVID. Now are you back to work? Are

727
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 1: you back to work in your old career, my old career.

728
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: I can't be a private investigator. You're not allowed to.

729
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: You've been barred from doing that. But I still can

730
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: do negotiations in troubleshooting, which is what I do, consulting.

731
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 1: I have a website that says Pellicano Negotiations and that's

732
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 1: what I do. And I think you might have read

733
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: about my most recent adventure with that. So yeah, But

734
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, I have no desire in

735
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: the world to be a private investigator again ever, no

736
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: desire whatsoever. And like I told you before, I use

737
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: investigation as a tool to solve a problem. So let's

738
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: say I need somebody to gather information for me, I

739
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: could just hire them. But to the extent that you

740
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: do sound, I mean you do. You clearly sound so strong, steely, competent, smart, mature, sober,

741
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: you all these things. Was there a little part of

742
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: you that got a little high on the career you had?

743
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: Did you get high on it a little bit? No,

744
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: not at all, not at all. No, No, it was

745
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: a job. No, you were about to talk to say

746
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: things that I wish that I've never done. No, but

747
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: I didn't like everybody I worked for. I can tell

748
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: you that there are a lot of celebrities that I

749
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: had disdained, But you know, the lawyers who hired me

750
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: or the agents that hired me. I had to do

751
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: the job. And by the way, that's the name of

752
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: the game. You know. You come to me with a problem.

753
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 1: I solved the problem. You pay me, and that's how

754
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 1: I support my family. That's how I took care of

755
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: and that was my livelihood. So that's why you know.

756
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: But you know, there's nothing that I regret. There are

757
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: things that I would have done differently. I wouldn't have

758
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 1: given the degree of loyalty to certain people who didn't

759
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: deserve it. But I'm that guy. I can't be anything

760
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: different to the day I die. I'm going to be

761
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: that loyal guy. If I'm loyal to you, I'm going

762
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: to remain loyal to you unless you do one thing,

763
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: and that's the killer lie. Once you lie to me

764
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: one time, you're dead. What's your bucket list? Now you're

765
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: at a prison after this ungodly length of time, what

766
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 1: do you want to do with the time in your life. Now.

767
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: I want peace. That's all I want is peace. I

768
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: want to, you know, survive as long as I can survive.

769
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: I want to have the relationship with my children. I

770
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: want to have the relationship with the few friends that

771
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: I have. And that's it. How were your children when

772
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: you were in prison? What were they like when you

773
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 1: were in prison? Uh, they were devastated. It was terrible

774
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: for them, you know, and you know, if you want

775
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: to use the term regret, I'm sorry that they went

776
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: through what they went through. But you know, they came

777
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 1: to people. More people came to me and told me talk,

778
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: you know, and all you gotta do is talk. And

779
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: I'm not that guy. And I you know, my children

780
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: realized that, they realized that their father is an honorable

781
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 1: guy and he's just not going to do it. They

782
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: didn't like it, Nobody liked it. But that's what I am.

783
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 1: And I'm going to remain that. What's the first thing

784
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: you did when you got out of prison? What's the

785
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: thing you said? Just I gotta go do this? What

786
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: you do? You have a nice meal in a beautiful restaurant.

787
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: Ronnie Yer loves to tell the story, I'm out of prison,

788
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: they take me to lunch, and then he takes me

789
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: to Italian restaurant after eating gruel for all these years, Right,

790
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: I'm complaining about the food. He loves to tell this

791
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: fucking story. I said, this is ship. He looks at me.

792
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 1: You've been eating beans and race for all these years,

793
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 1: and you're complaining. I said, well, this is I'm gonna

794
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: tell you, and I cook this is ship. Well, I'm

795
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: gonna stay in touch with you. I'm coming out there

796
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: in a few weeks. I'm gonna look you up out there.

797
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: And what I wanted to advance is one promise from you.

798
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: You find the restaurant that you know you're not going

799
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: to complain about, because I want you to have a

800
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: decent meal. If you complain about that fucking meal, I

801
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: we'll start crying. Okay, partner, Okay, deal. Anthony Pellicano's novel

802
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 1: The Neighborhood is coming out later this spring. I'm Alec

803
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 1: Baldwin and this is here's the thing. We're produced by

804
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo, Carrie donohue, and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is

805
00:43:41,960 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: Frank Imperial. Thanks for listening. Nat