1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,300 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,550 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frey. 3 00:00:14,990 --> 00:00:18,010 Speaker 1: And I'm Tracy V. Wilson. So recently, as I was 4 00:00:18,150 --> 00:00:24,650 Speaker 1: scrolling about on social media, as one does, there was a, 5 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,090 Speaker 1: in my case, Instagram post by New York Mayor. Saran 6 00:00:29,140 --> 00:00:31,780 Speaker 1: Mamdani announcing that the city was going to start a 7 00:00:31,900 --> 00:00:35,019 Speaker 1: renovation of a one and a half mile section of 8 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,660 Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Queens Expressway, known as the BQE to New Yorkers, 9 00:00:39,020 --> 00:00:41,890 Speaker 1: that runs between Atlantic Avenue and Sand Street. The whole 10 00:00:42,430 --> 00:00:46,070 Speaker 1: expressway does not that section. There is so much punditry 11 00:00:46,210 --> 00:00:49,500 Speaker 1: about this announcement and whether it's good or bad. We're 12 00:00:49,540 --> 00:00:52,190 Speaker 1: not weighing in on any of that. Uh, cause I 13 00:00:52,229 --> 00:00:54,110 Speaker 1: don't live in New York. I don't have, you know, this, 14 00:00:54,250 --> 00:00:55,810 Speaker 1: I'm in New York a lot, which is why I 15 00:00:55,850 --> 00:00:58,990 Speaker 1: keep getting fed these ads or these, uh, videos, but, um, 16 00:00:59,630 --> 00:01:01,050 Speaker 1: I don't live there. So I don't feel like I 17 00:01:01,090 --> 00:01:06,050 Speaker 1: have any gravity regarding the situation. But in that announcement, uh, 18 00:01:06,190 --> 00:01:10,380 Speaker 1: Mayor Mom Donnie mentioned Robert Moses and said like, oh, 19 00:01:10,420 --> 00:01:12,140 Speaker 1: that's a whole other video. And I was like, oh yeah, 20 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: there's a person that is controversial and intriguing and worth 21 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:22,050 Speaker 1: talking about. Uh, because he is responsible for so much 22 00:01:22,310 --> 00:01:25,450 Speaker 1: of the infrastructure that is part of day-to-day life in 23 00:01:25,490 --> 00:01:30,390 Speaker 1: New York. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica account, his work 24 00:01:30,470 --> 00:01:34,590 Speaker 1: included 35 highways, 12 bridges, numerous parks, Lincoln Center for 25 00:01:34,610 --> 00:01:39,690 Speaker 1: the Performing Arts, Shea Stadium, many housing projects, two hydroelectric dams, 26 00:01:40,090 --> 00:01:44,270 Speaker 1: and the 1964 New York World's Fair. We're not going 27 00:01:44,290 --> 00:01:45,910 Speaker 1: to talk about all of that because we can't. There's 28 00:01:45,930 --> 00:01:49,310 Speaker 1: just too much. But we will talk about some of 29 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,010 Speaker 1: the things that he worked on and the controversies that 30 00:01:52,050 --> 00:01:56,530 Speaker 1: played out and continue to. New Yorkers, I feel like, 31 00:01:56,590 --> 00:01:59,310 Speaker 1: and people who are into urban planning instantly know who 32 00:01:59,330 --> 00:02:02,390 Speaker 1: you're talking about when you say Robert Moses. But in 33 00:02:02,450 --> 00:02:05,030 Speaker 1: my casual survey of people in my life, a lot 34 00:02:05,050 --> 00:02:07,910 Speaker 1: of people did not seem to really know about him 35 00:02:08,110 --> 00:02:11,410 Speaker 1: or fully understand the breadth of his impact. And here's 36 00:02:11,430 --> 00:02:13,050 Speaker 1: the thing, when you look at his life story and 37 00:02:13,090 --> 00:02:15,470 Speaker 1: his career, it is a wild ride. And there is, 38 00:02:15,610 --> 00:02:19,140 Speaker 1: as I said, a lot of even pared down to 39 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,980 Speaker 1: exclude a lot of his big projects. We're not talking 40 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: about Lincoln Center today. Sorry if you wanted that. But 41 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: even getting rid of some of those big projects, it's 42 00:02:27,540 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: still another two-parter because Robert Moses was busy. He's got 43 00:02:32,900 --> 00:02:35,739 Speaker 1: some problems in his career that we'd have to talk about. 44 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:38,810 Speaker 1: And even though he has been dead for 45 years 45 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,790 Speaker 1: at this point, he remains a divisive figure whose legacy 46 00:02:42,850 --> 00:02:46,130 Speaker 1: is probably going to be debated for another century or more. 47 00:02:47,150 --> 00:02:49,950 Speaker 1: And he really did, though, impact the city, and he 48 00:02:50,070 --> 00:02:54,650 Speaker 1: created that legacy, interestingly enough, without ever having held public office. 49 00:02:54,690 --> 00:02:57,570 Speaker 1: He was never elected to public office, although he did 50 00:02:57,650 --> 00:03:01,110 Speaker 1: manage to gain an awful lot of power through appointments 51 00:03:01,169 --> 00:03:07,669 Speaker 1: to government positions. Robert Moses was born December 18, 1888, 52 00:03:07,669 --> 00:03:11,450 Speaker 1: to Emanuel and Bella Moses in New Haven, Connecticut, where 53 00:03:11,530 --> 00:03:15,540 Speaker 1: Emanuel had a department store. The Moses home was just 54 00:03:15,580 --> 00:03:18,540 Speaker 1: a couple of blocks away from the Yale University campus, 55 00:03:18,780 --> 00:03:21,109 Speaker 1: and they lived there until Robert was nine years old. 56 00:03:21,910 --> 00:03:25,510 Speaker 1: Then the family moved to New York City at Bella's insistence. 57 00:03:26,330 --> 00:03:29,910 Speaker 1: Emanuel was already planning his retirement, so once he was 58 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: done with working, the Moseses moved to East 46th Street 59 00:03:33,540 --> 00:03:37,500 Speaker 1: in Manhattan. Once they were in the city, Bella worked 60 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,750 Speaker 1: in a settlement house that helped Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe. 61 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: and that sounds like kind of a wholesome project for 62 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,940 Speaker 1: her to do, but Bella had her own agenda at 63 00:03:48,980 --> 00:03:54,340 Speaker 1: work with this. She really thought immigrants had to be Americanized. Yeah, Bella, 64 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,420 Speaker 1: I feel like, could be her own topic. I don't 65 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,810 Speaker 1: know if there's enough information on her, but she sounds 66 00:03:58,850 --> 00:04:03,010 Speaker 1: like a very headstrong, very bossy woman with a lot 67 00:04:03,030 --> 00:04:07,210 Speaker 1: of ideas. She came from a lot of money. Bella. 68 00:04:08,710 --> 00:04:11,130 Speaker 1: That's all I got to say on that one. She 69 00:04:11,150 --> 00:04:14,050 Speaker 1: will come up briefly later in the episode. But after 70 00:04:14,090 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: going to prep school, Robert enrolled at Yale. And as 71 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,420 Speaker 1: an undergrad, he was really active in a lot of sports. 72 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,219 Speaker 1: He was a standout on the swimming and water polo teams. 73 00:04:25,220 --> 00:04:28,700 Speaker 1: He completed his undergraduate degree in 1909, and then he 74 00:04:28,740 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: went to Wadham College, Oxford for his master's degree. And 75 00:04:33,020 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: Moses made a really strong, positive impression on his fellow 76 00:04:37,100 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: students in England, and he was elected president of the 77 00:04:40,140 --> 00:04:44,430 Speaker 1: Oxford Union. That's the debating society. He is the only 78 00:04:44,510 --> 00:04:47,430 Speaker 1: student from the U.S. to have ever held that position, 79 00:04:47,610 --> 00:04:49,190 Speaker 1: as far as I could tell. I know he was 80 00:04:49,230 --> 00:04:52,660 Speaker 1: the only one at that time. Moses then went to 81 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,250 Speaker 1: Columbia to get his PhD in political science, and his 82 00:04:56,310 --> 00:05:00,089 Speaker 1: dissertation for his PhD reflected the influence of his time 83 00:05:00,130 --> 00:05:03,810 Speaker 1: at Oxford. It was titled The Civil Service of Great Britain, 84 00:05:04,529 --> 00:05:08,990 Speaker 1: and he received his PhD in 1913. The months immediately 85 00:05:09,170 --> 00:05:12,300 Speaker 1: after the completion of his education were very busy for 86 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,730 Speaker 1: Robert Moses. He had a job basically waiting for him 87 00:05:15,850 --> 00:05:18,900 Speaker 1: thanks to his mother's connections that was at the Training 88 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: School for Public Service, which prepared students to work in 89 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,420 Speaker 1: government jobs. This job was apparently not something that Moses 90 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: especially liked. He thought it was really dull and unstimulating. 91 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,670 Speaker 1: Working at the school did have some positives for him, though. 92 00:05:35,830 --> 00:05:38,530 Speaker 1: It led him to meet his future wife, Mary Sims. 93 00:05:39,390 --> 00:05:42,170 Speaker 1: And he did pretty quickly find a way out of 94 00:05:42,190 --> 00:05:45,050 Speaker 1: the tedium of the training school, and that was in 95 00:05:45,089 --> 00:05:48,390 Speaker 1: a job working for John Perroy Mitchell, the mayor of 96 00:05:48,470 --> 00:05:50,950 Speaker 1: New York, as part of the New York City's Bureau 97 00:05:51,070 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: of Municipal Research. So this job still related, of course, 98 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: to government work, but this time Robert was reorganizing the 99 00:05:58,540 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: city's government, or at least making recommendations for it, and 100 00:06:01,660 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: he found that much more engaging. All of these moves 101 00:06:06,550 --> 00:06:09,950 Speaker 1: and meeting Mary, that all happened still in 1913, the 102 00:06:10,170 --> 00:06:12,750 Speaker 1: same year as his PhD. So it was, as we said, 103 00:06:12,790 --> 00:06:16,350 Speaker 1: a very busy year for him. Then after a two-year courtship, 104 00:06:16,410 --> 00:06:19,270 Speaker 1: Robert and Mary got married. That was in 1915, and 105 00:06:19,290 --> 00:06:22,530 Speaker 1: they would go on to have two daughters together. After 106 00:06:22,589 --> 00:06:25,849 Speaker 1: several years of working for the city, he met Alfred E. Smith, 107 00:06:25,990 --> 00:06:28,150 Speaker 1: the new governor of New York, and became part of 108 00:06:28,250 --> 00:06:33,110 Speaker 1: his team. The actual job came through Belle Moskovitz, who 109 00:06:33,140 --> 00:06:36,630 Speaker 1: was a progressive reformer who had become Smith's advisor, and 110 00:06:36,670 --> 00:06:41,450 Speaker 1: she could easily be an episode in the future. In 1919, 111 00:06:41,450 --> 00:06:43,950 Speaker 1: Moses became the chief of staff for the New York 112 00:06:44,010 --> 00:06:49,690 Speaker 1: State Reconstruction Commission. Smith had assembled this group, and Moskovitz 113 00:06:49,740 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: had brought Moses on to bring change to New York 114 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:57,970 Speaker 1: through a government reorg. Moses learned a lot from Moskowitz 115 00:06:58,029 --> 00:07:00,830 Speaker 1: in this role, and she had a really deep understanding 116 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: of how to maneuver through the government to achieve goals 117 00:07:05,020 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: without angering the people who held power, an important skill. Yes, 118 00:07:10,110 --> 00:07:12,470 Speaker 1: she's really considered a mentor to him. And, like, there's 119 00:07:12,590 --> 00:07:17,850 Speaker 1: one example of him making a recommendation at one point 120 00:07:17,970 --> 00:07:21,580 Speaker 1: in an early draft of a report about having to 121 00:07:21,660 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: cut some of the workforce. And she was like, ah, 122 00:07:24,460 --> 00:07:26,780 Speaker 1: don't forget, every one of those people is a voter, 123 00:07:27,260 --> 00:07:28,500 Speaker 1: and we don't want to make them mad. We have 124 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,140 Speaker 1: to figure out a way to cut costs without eliminating 125 00:07:31,180 --> 00:07:34,020 Speaker 1: this many people. Just little things like that that she 126 00:07:34,060 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: taught him to think about as he was doing his 127 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,740 Speaker 1: government work. And in this new role, Robert Moses first 128 00:07:40,780 --> 00:07:44,140 Speaker 1: had to make an assessment report on the state of 129 00:07:44,190 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: the government, and then a plan for a state government reorganization, 130 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: similar to what he had done for the city. On 131 00:07:52,460 --> 00:07:56,370 Speaker 1: October 10th, 1919, Moses submitted that report to the governor. 132 00:07:56,470 --> 00:08:00,650 Speaker 1: It was titled Report of Reconstruction Commission to Governor Alfred E. 133 00:08:00,710 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: Smith on Retrenchment and Reorganization in the State Government. This 134 00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:10,140 Speaker 1: was a substantial document. The summary alone was 42 pages long, 135 00:08:10,780 --> 00:08:14,860 Speaker 1: and there were another 372 pages to it. Moses had 136 00:08:14,940 --> 00:08:18,770 Speaker 1: spearheaded an in-depth look at every single job in the 137 00:08:18,830 --> 00:08:22,850 Speaker 1: state government, and he made thousands of recommendations based on 138 00:08:22,890 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: that look. This really started things off on the right 139 00:08:27,330 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: foot for him, as the report was considered both comprehensive 140 00:08:30,820 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: and impressive. It gave Moses enough clout with the governor 141 00:08:34,980 --> 00:08:38,730 Speaker 1: that he stepped into an advisory role with the state administration. 142 00:08:39,650 --> 00:08:42,530 Speaker 1: The report was very popular with progressives. A lot of 143 00:08:42,650 --> 00:08:46,950 Speaker 1: the recommendations in the document required approval from the legislature 144 00:08:47,070 --> 00:08:50,370 Speaker 1: or even changes to the state constitution, and a lot 145 00:08:50,390 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: of that passed, but not all of it. Moses intended 146 00:08:54,660 --> 00:08:59,180 Speaker 1: to keep lobbying for the remaining recommendations, but in 1920, 147 00:08:59,179 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: he had a hiccup in this plan, and his career 148 00:09:02,220 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: was also having a little hiccup because Alfred E. Smith 149 00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: lost the gubernatorial election. Moses got a new job with 150 00:09:10,540 --> 00:09:13,610 Speaker 1: the New York State Association, but he and Al Smith 151 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,670 Speaker 1: kept in close touch after this. And then in 1922, 152 00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:20,390 Speaker 1: Smith ran again, and this time he won by a 153 00:09:20,470 --> 00:09:24,089 Speaker 1: huge margin. Once he was back in the governor's seat, 154 00:09:24,309 --> 00:09:27,010 Speaker 1: Moses was right back on track with his own career 155 00:09:27,090 --> 00:09:29,870 Speaker 1: and was once again a rising star in the state government. 156 00:09:30,770 --> 00:09:34,170 Speaker 1: In 1924, Governor Alfred E. Smith appointed Moses to a 157 00:09:34,210 --> 00:09:38,090 Speaker 1: role that he would parlay into a huge amount of power. 158 00:09:38,790 --> 00:09:40,890 Speaker 1: because he became the head of the New York and 159 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: Long Island Park Commissions. We will talk about why the 160 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: Park Commission job was so important after we pause for 161 00:09:47,940 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: a sponsor break. The significance of the New York and 162 00:10:00,250 --> 00:10:04,620 Speaker 1: Long Island Park Commission's position is really tied to shifting 163 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: socioeconomic conditions in the U.S. in the mid-1920s. So we're 164 00:10:08,660 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: going to zoom out for a second. In the first 165 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:13,859 Speaker 1: quarter of the 20th century, there were a lot of 166 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,380 Speaker 1: reforms and changes for the U.S. There were moves for 167 00:10:17,420 --> 00:10:21,730 Speaker 1: business regulation and better working conditions. And then after World 168 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,050 Speaker 1: War I, economic prosperity reached a wider range of people 169 00:10:26,090 --> 00:10:30,050 Speaker 1: than ever before. A lot of households saw an increase 170 00:10:30,110 --> 00:10:33,150 Speaker 1: in their income, with working hours also being reduced in 171 00:10:33,190 --> 00:10:37,570 Speaker 1: many sectors. While the 40-hour workweek was still decades away 172 00:10:37,630 --> 00:10:41,070 Speaker 1: from becoming a federal law... a number of factories and 173 00:10:41,110 --> 00:10:45,500 Speaker 1: large companies had already adopted the eight-hour workday. And what 174 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,860 Speaker 1: all of this means is that New Yorkers had more 175 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,860 Speaker 1: leisure time and a little more cash in their pockets. 176 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,069 Speaker 1: So places like parks were becoming more and more important 177 00:10:54,140 --> 00:10:58,130 Speaker 1: as a place to spend those free hours. Robert Moses 178 00:10:58,210 --> 00:11:02,090 Speaker 1: really recognized this change, and he leveraged the growing role 179 00:11:02,110 --> 00:11:06,430 Speaker 1: that park spaces played in New York into expanding his 180 00:11:06,510 --> 00:11:11,429 Speaker 1: own prominence. And Moses reshaped the way the government approached 181 00:11:11,650 --> 00:11:14,830 Speaker 1: new park projects in the state. When he stepped into 182 00:11:14,870 --> 00:11:17,699 Speaker 1: the role, most of their plans for green spaces were 183 00:11:17,790 --> 00:11:21,179 Speaker 1: really about maintaining them in their natural state as like 184 00:11:21,220 --> 00:11:26,460 Speaker 1: a preserved wilderness. But Moses envisioned the addition of more 185 00:11:26,580 --> 00:11:33,380 Speaker 1: manicured and cultivated spaces with dedicated recreation areas. Moses also 186 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,580 Speaker 1: used his work with the parks in a way that 187 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:41,110 Speaker 1: changed New York's transportation infrastructure significantly. Because anytime he built 188 00:11:41,150 --> 00:11:44,069 Speaker 1: a new park, he also made sure that project included 189 00:11:44,330 --> 00:11:47,090 Speaker 1: access to the park in the form of roads that 190 00:11:47,150 --> 00:11:51,740 Speaker 1: connected new green spaces to the highways. He was building parkways. 191 00:11:51,860 --> 00:11:54,660 Speaker 1: That's why they're called that. From the beginning, he had 192 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: planned a large state park system for Long Island that 193 00:11:58,260 --> 00:12:01,830 Speaker 1: would all be connected together by new roadways. But that 194 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,569 Speaker 1: also meant that landowners on Long Island were going to 195 00:12:04,610 --> 00:12:07,949 Speaker 1: have to give up their property. This was not popular. 196 00:12:07,970 --> 00:12:10,790 Speaker 1: A lot of those landowners were from old New York money, 197 00:12:11,150 --> 00:12:13,570 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of contentious back and forth. 198 00:12:13,650 --> 00:12:17,650 Speaker 1: But ultimately, Moses saw the majority of his plans come 199 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: to fruition. Over the course of just four years in 200 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,980 Speaker 1: this position, Robert Moses added 13 parks to Long Island, 201 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: totaling about 9,700 acres. There had only been one there 202 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,340 Speaker 1: when he started, so this was a massive increase in 203 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,580 Speaker 1: park space, but also in roadways. He definitely felt that 204 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,700 Speaker 1: advocating for park space, he would retain the favor of 205 00:12:41,740 --> 00:12:44,420 Speaker 1: the general public, once stating, quote, as long as you're 206 00:12:44,470 --> 00:12:47,030 Speaker 1: fighting for parks, you can be sure of having public 207 00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:50,190 Speaker 1: opinion on your side. And as long as you have 208 00:12:50,410 --> 00:12:54,890 Speaker 1: public opinion on your side, you're safe. In 1927, he 209 00:12:54,929 --> 00:12:57,730 Speaker 1: became New York Secretary of State, which is a role 210 00:12:57,770 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: that he filled for two years. It was one of 211 00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:03,100 Speaker 1: many times in his career that he stacked jobs. He 212 00:13:03,140 --> 00:13:07,530 Speaker 1: was serving in multiple positions at once. Yeah, he never 213 00:13:07,809 --> 00:13:09,450 Speaker 1: seemed to leave a job for a while. He just 214 00:13:09,470 --> 00:13:14,210 Speaker 1: kept adding, adding, adding. One of the biggest projects that 215 00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:17,910 Speaker 1: was undertaken by Moses in the 1920s was Jones Beach. 216 00:13:18,610 --> 00:13:21,670 Speaker 1: So this was actually named for a 17th century privateer 217 00:13:21,809 --> 00:13:24,630 Speaker 1: named Major Thomas Jones who who is said to have 218 00:13:24,690 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 1: built the first brick house on Long Island and whose 219 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: property included a stretch of land that included what would 220 00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:34,670 Speaker 1: become a park site. The project that Moses was plotting, 221 00:13:34,770 --> 00:13:37,530 Speaker 1: which is still today one of the most popular beach 222 00:13:37,570 --> 00:13:42,050 Speaker 1: spots on the East Coast, came to exist through sheer determination. 223 00:13:43,030 --> 00:13:46,109 Speaker 1: It started as a sandbar along the southern edge of 224 00:13:46,170 --> 00:13:49,390 Speaker 1: Long Island. And when Moses initially looked at it as 225 00:13:49,429 --> 00:13:52,700 Speaker 1: a potential park site, it was barely above sea level 226 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: and it was frequently completely underwater during inclement weather. Like 227 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,180 Speaker 1: anytime there was a storm surge, that basically went away. 228 00:14:01,260 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: Moses said of the site later, quote, let us have 229 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,219 Speaker 1: no illusions about Jones Beach as we found it. It 230 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,489 Speaker 1: was an isolated swampy sandbar accessible only by small boats 231 00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:17,050 Speaker 1: and infrequent ferries inhabited by fishermen and loners, surf casters 232 00:14:17,150 --> 00:14:20,210 Speaker 1: and assorted oddballs and beachcombers trying to get away from 233 00:14:20,250 --> 00:14:24,050 Speaker 1: it all. The tales told of a lovely primitive paradise 234 00:14:24,110 --> 00:14:28,650 Speaker 1: wilderness with indestructible dunes were fiction. Jones Beach was in 235 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:32,700 Speaker 1: fact a mosquito infested tidal swamp full of stagnant pools 236 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,340 Speaker 1: flanked by shifting dunes. But Moses thought it could be 237 00:14:37,380 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: something else, and he started sketching out ideas for a 238 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: grand park. While a lot of people in the government 239 00:14:43,540 --> 00:14:46,530 Speaker 1: and the press wrote off the idea as completely unrealistic, 240 00:14:46,650 --> 00:14:49,970 Speaker 1: Moses continued to push for it. And once he got 241 00:14:49,990 --> 00:14:54,330 Speaker 1: through the endless red tape and political maneuvering that was necessary, 242 00:14:54,430 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: he still had a huge road ahead of him. First, 243 00:14:57,380 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: he had to make a sandbar into something more The 244 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:05,540 Speaker 1: solution was a massive dredging project. A reported 40 million 245 00:15:05,620 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: cubic yards of sand were brought up from the ocean 246 00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:11,460 Speaker 1: floor to build up the sandbar into an actual island. 247 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,620 Speaker 1: And the result was that it went from two feet 248 00:15:14,740 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: above sea level to 12 feet above sea level. And 249 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,450 Speaker 1: then this project kind of looked like it was dead 250 00:15:21,610 --> 00:15:25,570 Speaker 1: when the money just ran out. Moses, though, was determined 251 00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:28,530 Speaker 1: to finish, and he did something very unorthodox to make 252 00:15:28,590 --> 00:15:30,850 Speaker 1: up the gap in funding. which is that he went 253 00:15:30,910 --> 00:15:33,470 Speaker 1: to his mother, Bella, and asked her for a loan. 254 00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: He got $ 20, 000 from her to continue this project. This 255 00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:40,380 Speaker 1: is one of those things that the first time you 256 00:15:40,420 --> 00:15:43,100 Speaker 1: read it sounds utterly preposterous. And I was like, I 257 00:15:43,140 --> 00:15:47,980 Speaker 1: got to fact check this in several places. Moses verified 258 00:15:48,020 --> 00:15:50,030 Speaker 1: it later in his life, stating that if his mother 259 00:15:50,070 --> 00:15:53,370 Speaker 1: had not come through with that money, the contractors were 260 00:15:53,450 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: not going to return with their equipment to finish the job. Finally, 261 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: against all odds, Jones Beach opened on August 4th, 1925, 262 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,690 Speaker 1: during a sandstorm. The dedication still happened, though, and Moses 263 00:16:07,730 --> 00:16:11,310 Speaker 1: gave a speech, as did Alfred E. Smith and Franklin D. Roosevelt, 264 00:16:11,390 --> 00:16:13,570 Speaker 1: who was the governor of the state at the time. 265 00:16:14,370 --> 00:16:17,530 Speaker 1: And people literally flocked to the new place, which offered 266 00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:21,690 Speaker 1: a gorgeous view of the Atlantic Ocean. An estimated 1.5 267 00:16:21,690 --> 00:16:24,910 Speaker 1: million people visited the park in its first year alone. 268 00:16:25,750 --> 00:16:29,130 Speaker 1: During that time, construction had begun on additional facilities for 269 00:16:29,150 --> 00:16:32,770 Speaker 1: the park, swimming pools and the West Bath House. In 270 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: its final form, it is the largest public recreational bathing 271 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:42,660 Speaker 1: park in the world at 2,413 acres with 6.5 miles 272 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: of ocean beach frontage. And Robert Moses had overseen every 273 00:16:47,660 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: aspect of all the facilities right down to the design 274 00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,870 Speaker 1: elements on the buildings. By the end of 1931, just 275 00:16:53,950 --> 00:16:56,770 Speaker 1: two years after opening, traffic to Jones Beach had gotten 276 00:16:57,050 --> 00:17:00,650 Speaker 1: so bad that land from the town of Hempstead was 277 00:17:00,750 --> 00:17:03,410 Speaker 1: given to the state to make another causeway to try 278 00:17:03,450 --> 00:17:06,300 Speaker 1: to handle the load. If you are familiar with the 279 00:17:06,340 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: story of Jones Beach and you're wondering right now, are 280 00:17:08,660 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: you going to mention the overpass bridges? Because Tracy asked 281 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: me when she read this outline. We're going to talk 282 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: about it in the behind the scenes because that is 283 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,900 Speaker 1: a very complex topic all on its own. It's kind 284 00:17:18,940 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: of a whole thing. Sure is. And it would derail 285 00:17:22,869 --> 00:17:26,169 Speaker 1: the narrative of this story. So a construction project that 286 00:17:26,210 --> 00:17:30,070 Speaker 1: began after Jones Beach was the Grand Central Parkway. That 287 00:17:30,109 --> 00:17:32,630 Speaker 1: runs from the Triborough Bridge out to the county line 288 00:17:32,670 --> 00:17:36,429 Speaker 1: that separates Queens and Nassau counties. And it offers up 289 00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:39,530 Speaker 1: a good example of why the work that Moses did 290 00:17:39,609 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: remains debated today. So the Grand Central Parkway was initially 291 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,180 Speaker 1: intended as a scenic drive through Queens. That was back 292 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,109 Speaker 1: in 1922, pre-Moses for the most part. And at that time, 293 00:17:51,150 --> 00:17:54,790 Speaker 1: the Queens Topographical Society had actually had its engineers go 294 00:17:54,850 --> 00:17:57,670 Speaker 1: out and survey the area, and they proposed a roadway 295 00:17:58,070 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: that would run from Queens Boulevard in Kew County to 296 00:18:01,190 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: Nassau County. But it took nine years to get it 297 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: to the construction phase, and Robert Moses came onto the 298 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:14,580 Speaker 1: project in 1924. Moses thought the plan could be expanded 299 00:18:14,660 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: so that Manhattan residents could use the roadway to access 300 00:18:17,780 --> 00:18:21,619 Speaker 1: parks and beaches on Long Island. And this was supported 301 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,100 Speaker 1: by his bosses. During the opening ceremonies of Jones Beach, 302 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,790 Speaker 1: Governor Roosevelt said he wanted the parkway that connected Long 303 00:18:28,970 --> 00:18:32,690 Speaker 1: Island to Triborough Bridge, quote, so that we who live 304 00:18:32,810 --> 00:18:34,930 Speaker 1: up on the Hudson will be able to get more 305 00:18:35,130 --> 00:18:37,750 Speaker 1: easily to Long Island and for us to have more 306 00:18:37,869 --> 00:18:41,169 Speaker 1: visitors from Long Island. So at that point, it was 307 00:18:41,290 --> 00:18:44,350 Speaker 1: obvious that Jones Beach had become a new reason to 308 00:18:44,450 --> 00:18:48,969 Speaker 1: expand that original project. Moses showed off his expanded plan 309 00:18:49,020 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: to civic leaders in a meeting the following year at 310 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: the Waldorf Astoria Hotel. And as this project was being developed, 311 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,260 Speaker 1: Moses wanted the roadway to be much wider than the 312 00:19:00,340 --> 00:19:04,369 Speaker 1: existing space would allow. That would have required the destruction 313 00:19:04,590 --> 00:19:08,510 Speaker 1: of quite a number of homes. A county official fought 314 00:19:08,550 --> 00:19:11,030 Speaker 1: him on this matter, asking if Moses was going to 315 00:19:11,109 --> 00:19:14,710 Speaker 1: relocate the displaced residents. And when Moses said he couldn't 316 00:19:14,770 --> 00:19:17,990 Speaker 1: do that, that county official did everything in his power 317 00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 1: to save those residences, and Moses, as a consequence, had 318 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,780 Speaker 1: to build a narrower road. But that actually created a 319 00:19:25,820 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: problem later on. We're jumping ahead just a bit. We're 320 00:19:29,580 --> 00:19:31,620 Speaker 1: going to come back to it mostly in part two, 321 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: but when the 1964 World's Fair was on the horizon... 322 00:19:35,220 --> 00:19:38,180 Speaker 1: it became apparent that that initial parkway was not wide 323 00:19:38,220 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: enough to accommodate the traffic that was expected. So Moses 324 00:19:42,260 --> 00:19:45,150 Speaker 1: got his way some years later, and those people did 325 00:19:45,190 --> 00:19:49,010 Speaker 1: still lose their houses. Moses had also been made chairman 326 00:19:49,109 --> 00:19:53,380 Speaker 1: of the New York... Park Association's Metropolitan Conference on Parks 327 00:19:53,540 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: in the 1920s, which enabled him to prepare plans for 328 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,250 Speaker 1: park spaces in Manhattan. In 1930, he submitted a report 329 00:20:01,310 --> 00:20:04,490 Speaker 1: that called for the city to acquire as much remaining 330 00:20:04,710 --> 00:20:08,700 Speaker 1: undeveloped and rural land as possible. As he had done 331 00:20:08,740 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: with his Long Island plan, he had envisioned both park 332 00:20:12,060 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: spaces and parkways to connect everything. The recommendations in this 333 00:20:16,780 --> 00:20:19,980 Speaker 1: report were put into practice, and the Belt, Grand Central, 334 00:20:20,060 --> 00:20:24,010 Speaker 1: Cross Island, and Henry Hudson parkways were all created as 335 00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:27,369 Speaker 1: a result. Coming up, we're going to talk about Roosevelt's 336 00:20:27,470 --> 00:20:31,010 Speaker 1: New Deal and a long treatise about slums that Moses 337 00:20:31,050 --> 00:20:33,670 Speaker 1: wrote for the Atlantic. But before we get into all 338 00:20:33,710 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: of that, we're going to take a sponsor break. When 339 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,290 Speaker 1: FDR implemented his New Deal program in 1933, it offered 340 00:20:50,330 --> 00:20:53,530 Speaker 1: an opportunity to Robert Moses in the form of federal 341 00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:58,910 Speaker 1: funding for his plans through the Works Progress Administration. After 342 00:20:58,950 --> 00:21:02,510 Speaker 1: that massive success of the Jones Beach Project, Moses had 343 00:21:02,550 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: a reputation unlike almost anyone else who worked in government. 344 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:12,350 Speaker 1: On January 1st, 1934, Fiorello LaGuardia began his first term 345 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,170 Speaker 1: as mayor of New York City. And in his first 346 00:21:15,250 --> 00:21:18,970 Speaker 1: weeks in that position, LaGuardia made Moses head of the 347 00:21:19,010 --> 00:21:22,590 Speaker 1: New York City Park Commission. And just as the mayor 348 00:21:22,650 --> 00:21:26,550 Speaker 1: had moved quickly to appoint Moses, Moses moved quickly to 349 00:21:26,590 --> 00:21:29,689 Speaker 1: make updates to the parks. Over the course of just 350 00:21:29,730 --> 00:21:32,750 Speaker 1: a few months, the city's parks had a lot of improvements. 351 00:21:32,810 --> 00:21:36,330 Speaker 1: They had fresh lawns. The tennis courts were all resurfaced. 352 00:21:36,690 --> 00:21:39,740 Speaker 1: Bathrooms and drinking fountains were all clean, and they had 353 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:45,420 Speaker 1: been repaired as needed. That same year, LaGuardia expanded Moses' 354 00:21:45,500 --> 00:21:48,780 Speaker 1: power when he also appointed him chairman of the Triborough 355 00:21:48,820 --> 00:21:51,540 Speaker 1: Bridge Authority. More than a decade later, it would be 356 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,980 Speaker 1: renamed the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority. He was still 357 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,659 Speaker 1: head of the Park Commission. And this is something that 358 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: was very much a part of the power Moses accumulated. 359 00:22:02,300 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: He held a lot of offices concurrently, and that offered 360 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,940 Speaker 1: him a significant breadth of power over a lot of 361 00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: public works projects. Yeah, he also had a lot of 362 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: overlap in the various commissions, agencies, and offices that he 363 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,830 Speaker 1: was in charge of. So he could kind of play 364 00:22:18,850 --> 00:22:20,970 Speaker 1: a little bit of chess. We're going to talk about, 365 00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:24,010 Speaker 1: in part two, a lot about how problematic that was 366 00:22:24,050 --> 00:22:27,970 Speaker 1: for people. There was a brief moment when it seemed 367 00:22:28,010 --> 00:22:30,889 Speaker 1: like Robert Moses might be thinking bigger than heading up 368 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,580 Speaker 1: city and state commissions. We mentioned in the opening to 369 00:22:34,619 --> 00:22:37,820 Speaker 1: this episode that Robert Moses was not an elected official, 370 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,830 Speaker 1: but he did run for public office just once. In 1934, 371 00:22:42,830 --> 00:22:46,190 Speaker 1: he ran for governor of New York, and he got trounced. 372 00:22:46,859 --> 00:22:50,740 Speaker 1: The incumbent Democratic governor, Herbert H. Lehman, got more than 373 00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:53,890 Speaker 1: 2.2 million votes in the popular vote, and Moses got 374 00:22:53,930 --> 00:22:58,250 Speaker 1: less than 1.4 million. In the announcement of Lehman's win 375 00:22:58,410 --> 00:23:01,230 Speaker 1: at the New York Times, the paper noted, quote, Meanwhile, 376 00:23:01,250 --> 00:23:05,850 Speaker 1: his redoubtable and militant opponent, Robert Moses, will remain free 377 00:23:05,930 --> 00:23:08,649 Speaker 1: to go on with his work as a great park commissioner. 378 00:23:09,310 --> 00:23:12,899 Speaker 1: Starting in the 1930s with this expanded power, he launched 379 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,380 Speaker 1: an ambitious plan to add parks, playgrounds, bridges, tunnels, and 380 00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: highways to New York. He expanded the city's playgrounds significantly. 381 00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:25,580 Speaker 1: He built 235 new ones, and that sounds excellent, but 382 00:23:26,330 --> 00:23:30,110 Speaker 1: Another pattern in his career was really starting to emerge, 383 00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:32,970 Speaker 1: and that is one in which he just disregarded the 384 00:23:33,030 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: needs of areas of the city with predominantly non-white populations. 385 00:23:38,220 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: So of those 235 playgrounds, for example, only one of 386 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,500 Speaker 1: them was in Harlem. In the summer of 1936, he 387 00:23:46,580 --> 00:23:51,070 Speaker 1: opened 11 new swimming pools. Four were in Manhattan, which 388 00:23:51,220 --> 00:23:53,970 Speaker 1: did include one in Harlem and another in West Harlem. 389 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,619 Speaker 1: There were four in Brooklyn and then one each in 390 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,900 Speaker 1: the Bronx, Queens, and Staten Island. These pools were considered 391 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,580 Speaker 1: cutting edge. They had new filtration and chlorination systems, and 392 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,109 Speaker 1: they were heated and had underwater lighting. Per the New 393 00:24:09,150 --> 00:24:12,670 Speaker 1: York Parks Department, quote, the influence of the pools extended 394 00:24:12,690 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: throughout entire communities, attracting aspiring athletes and neighborhood children and 395 00:24:18,060 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: changing the way millions of New Yorkers spent their leisure time. 396 00:24:21,820 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: But they weren't used only for swimming. The pools were 397 00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: also designed to be drained in the cooler months and 398 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: used for other activities ranging from shuffleboard to roller skating. Yeah, 399 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,070 Speaker 1: they could be kind of adapted into being tennis courts, 400 00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:41,690 Speaker 1: basketball courts, etc., as needed. Starting in the 1940s, Moses sought, 401 00:24:41,770 --> 00:24:44,830 Speaker 1: he said, to get rid of New York slums. He 402 00:24:44,869 --> 00:24:47,929 Speaker 1: was obviously not the first person to want that, but 403 00:24:47,970 --> 00:24:50,710 Speaker 1: because he had amassed a great deal of clout and 404 00:24:50,810 --> 00:24:53,659 Speaker 1: power at that point, his very strong opinions on the 405 00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: matter held a lot of weight. And he was named 406 00:24:56,780 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: chairman of the mayor's slum clearance committee. And this is 407 00:25:00,740 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: one of his initiatives that really remains hotly debated today, 408 00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:09,209 Speaker 1: and rightly so. In 1945, he penned an article for 409 00:25:09,230 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: The Atlantic that opened with, quote, the general pattern of 410 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,220 Speaker 1: the development of slums is almost always the same. They 411 00:25:16,260 --> 00:25:19,620 Speaker 1: begin with the overcrowding of existing buildings and the addition 412 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,710 Speaker 1: of tenants built by consciousness speculators to a considerable height 413 00:25:23,869 --> 00:25:27,909 Speaker 1: on little land without reference to light, air, sanitation, and 414 00:25:28,050 --> 00:25:32,230 Speaker 1: other standards of decent living and safety. The place of 415 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: a single family in a reasonably comfortable house is taken 416 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: by a number of families, and in the tenements, people 417 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,660 Speaker 1: are packed in like chickens in a coop. Wave after 418 00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:45,540 Speaker 1: wave of newcomers inhabit these rookeries. As soon as one 419 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,219 Speaker 1: generation achieves enough prosperity to get out, it moves on 420 00:25:49,340 --> 00:25:52,700 Speaker 1: and another with lower standards and income takes its place. 421 00:25:53,770 --> 00:25:55,909 Speaker 1: So that's just the opening, and we're going to spend 422 00:25:56,090 --> 00:25:58,330 Speaker 1: quite a bit of time with this article today. because 423 00:25:58,390 --> 00:26:01,669 Speaker 1: it really evidences some of the reasons that Moses and 424 00:26:01,730 --> 00:26:06,020 Speaker 1: his approach have continued to be controversial. So he goes 425 00:26:06,140 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: on to explain that the gap between politicians and social 426 00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: and civic workers of how this cycle plays out leads 427 00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:16,580 Speaker 1: to years of trying to get everybody on the same page. 428 00:26:17,180 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: And during that time, those neighborhoods continue to decline. He states, quote, 429 00:26:21,770 --> 00:26:25,810 Speaker 1: in the meantime, local political hacks satisfy the customers or 430 00:26:25,850 --> 00:26:30,190 Speaker 1: at least prevent an open revolution by handouts of coal 431 00:26:30,270 --> 00:26:35,170 Speaker 1: and wood, groceries and Christmas baskets. Property owners, real estate 432 00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: developers and their allies, banks, estates and even churches are 433 00:26:39,020 --> 00:26:42,340 Speaker 1: content to collect their rents and close their eyes to 434 00:26:42,380 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: the implications of their investments. He praises the work of 435 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:51,109 Speaker 1: settlement houses. He name-checks Jane Addams, among others at this point. 436 00:26:51,830 --> 00:26:55,190 Speaker 1: But he also states that their work is done and that, quote, 437 00:26:55,230 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: the task now is one of engineering and management and 438 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,700 Speaker 1: that they must turn the job over to administrators. Yeah, 439 00:27:03,740 --> 00:27:06,140 Speaker 1: that one is so wild to me. Like, oh, that's 440 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,030 Speaker 1: great that you helped people. We'll take it from here. 441 00:27:09,210 --> 00:27:13,330 Speaker 1: We're done helping. You're done helping. Yeah. Moving on. We're 442 00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:16,350 Speaker 1: going to administrate the heck out of this problem. He 443 00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:19,490 Speaker 1: also blames rapid transit for the speed of decline in 444 00:27:19,540 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: these neighborhoods. This is something that he has been criticized 445 00:27:22,660 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: about since the 1940s, that he was very against transit 446 00:27:28,859 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: in cities. He states, quote, If in New York City 447 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,580 Speaker 1: we had refrained from building so many miles of subway 448 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: at $ 20 million a mile and had put some of 449 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: this money into rehabilitating and making livable and attractive the 450 00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: older and central parts of town, millions of people would 451 00:27:45,180 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: not today be crowded like cattle into hurtling trains during 452 00:27:48,540 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: the rush hours. He also chastises the people who made 453 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: their money in New York real estate at the end 454 00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: of the 1800s and early 1900s, citing their malignant influence. 455 00:27:59,950 --> 00:28:02,389 Speaker 1: And he says the stories of how they created slums 456 00:28:02,430 --> 00:28:05,750 Speaker 1: should be repeated periodically so that people do not do 457 00:28:05,790 --> 00:28:09,790 Speaker 1: the same things over and over. He cites the praise 458 00:28:09,830 --> 00:28:13,010 Speaker 1: these speculators received in their time as, quote, one of 459 00:28:13,050 --> 00:28:17,449 Speaker 1: the saddest commentaries on our urban civilization. Of all the 460 00:28:17,490 --> 00:28:20,510 Speaker 1: things that he says in this article, I mean, I 461 00:28:20,570 --> 00:28:24,110 Speaker 1: have problems with a lot of them, but the part 462 00:28:24,130 --> 00:28:27,619 Speaker 1: about transit makes absolutely no sense to me. No, he 463 00:28:27,660 --> 00:28:29,890 Speaker 1: just thinks, like, if you make the center of town pretty, 464 00:28:29,950 --> 00:28:34,010 Speaker 1: nobody will want to go anywhere. I don't know. It's like, oh, doodles. 465 00:28:35,030 --> 00:28:37,649 Speaker 1: You know what would cause there to be fewer people 466 00:28:37,750 --> 00:28:41,810 Speaker 1: crammed into trains on transit? More trains. More of them. 467 00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:47,220 Speaker 1: That would be great. Anyway, when Moses offers what he 468 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,500 Speaker 1: calls a cure, it's a whole other thing. He notes 469 00:28:50,620 --> 00:28:54,180 Speaker 1: that what he calls endless wranglings over the way to 470 00:28:54,220 --> 00:28:58,690 Speaker 1: fix such problems... often lead to stalemates and then nothing improves. 471 00:28:59,190 --> 00:29:02,950 Speaker 1: He wrote, quote, slums cannot be cleaned out all at once, 472 00:29:03,450 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: except in campaign oratory and the familiar literature of social agencies. 473 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: There has to be a time schedule as well as 474 00:29:10,780 --> 00:29:16,300 Speaker 1: a program. There must be limited objectives. There must be compromise. 475 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: This is so fascinating to me because, as we'll talk 476 00:29:20,220 --> 00:29:23,050 Speaker 1: about later, and particularly in part two, he kind of 477 00:29:23,090 --> 00:29:27,420 Speaker 1: contradicts himself in his behavior here. regarding all of these 478 00:29:27,460 --> 00:29:30,140 Speaker 1: things that he's preaching in this article. He also gets 479 00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: in some digs at the groups that he blames for 480 00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:34,930 Speaker 1: the slowdowns in progress. He's like, I have all the 481 00:29:34,970 --> 00:29:37,030 Speaker 1: right ideas if you just listen to me, but these 482 00:29:37,110 --> 00:29:39,350 Speaker 1: guys want to argue about it. He says, quote, the 483 00:29:39,410 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: pinks and reds who never get their roots down anywhere. 484 00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: And then he cites, quote, the perfectionists who are not revolutionaries, 485 00:29:46,580 --> 00:29:50,190 Speaker 1: but will agree to no compromise. And then he kind 486 00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:53,250 Speaker 1: of gets to at least what feels like his point 487 00:29:53,450 --> 00:29:56,070 Speaker 1: in that section, that getting rid of slums in most 488 00:29:56,090 --> 00:30:01,060 Speaker 1: cities has been done indirectly, quote, through clearance not for public, semi-public, 489 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: or private housing, but for parks, playgrounds, parkways, expressways, boulevards, 490 00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:10,469 Speaker 1: and other public improvements. And then he crows about what 491 00:30:10,510 --> 00:30:13,350 Speaker 1: he believes to be his achievement, quote, that my particular 492 00:30:13,390 --> 00:30:17,180 Speaker 1: little group of demolition and building demons is have without 493 00:30:17,260 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: fanfare and social worker abracadabra pulled down more old rookeries 494 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,810 Speaker 1: than all the housing experts and authorities put together. And 495 00:30:27,650 --> 00:30:30,390 Speaker 1: the best thing about it is we have substituted nothing 496 00:30:30,450 --> 00:30:34,670 Speaker 1: for the rookeries, but broad highways lined with landscaping and 497 00:30:34,730 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: recreation facilities open to the sun and the elements, affording 498 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,820 Speaker 1: the very best incentive to further slum clearance and improvement 499 00:30:44,540 --> 00:30:46,850 Speaker 1: on their boundaries. Yeah, just put a road there. It'll 500 00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:49,790 Speaker 1: be fine. It's fine to just not have the housing 501 00:30:49,830 --> 00:30:51,670 Speaker 1: that the people were living in. If there's going to 502 00:30:51,710 --> 00:30:54,490 Speaker 1: be a road, I hate it. Yeah, I mean, I 503 00:30:54,530 --> 00:30:57,590 Speaker 1: think everybody does. This is the really rough part of 504 00:30:57,650 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: his legacy, is that he just had this short-sightedness that 505 00:31:01,460 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: is really grounded in racism. Yeah. He then states, quote, 506 00:31:05,150 --> 00:31:08,260 Speaker 1: I am a strong believer in subsidized public housing within 507 00:31:08,380 --> 00:31:10,959 Speaker 1: proper limits and have worked hard to support it, but 508 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,700 Speaker 1: I intend to be honest about it. And then he 509 00:31:13,780 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: outlines what he believes the obstacles are. One is, of course, 510 00:31:17,020 --> 00:31:20,540 Speaker 1: the funding source. He explains that public money has been 511 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,860 Speaker 1: used for funding such projects, but that, quote, a constitutional 512 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,020 Speaker 1: amendment is required to permit states and municipalities to enter 513 00:31:28,060 --> 00:31:31,970 Speaker 1: this field. And that legislation introduced up to that point 514 00:31:32,050 --> 00:31:34,950 Speaker 1: had been quite vague and that the people crafting that 515 00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:38,300 Speaker 1: language did not fully understand the situation. Basically saying like, 516 00:31:38,390 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: if we want to go in and, and run new places, 517 00:31:42,260 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: new livable multifamily facilities, like we got to get a 518 00:31:47,060 --> 00:31:48,980 Speaker 1: bunch of permission from the state, but like the people 519 00:31:49,020 --> 00:31:51,100 Speaker 1: trying to write the laws to even give us that permission, 520 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,030 Speaker 1: don't understand any of this. He does come off as 521 00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:58,340 Speaker 1: very conceited all the time. Um, Additionally, most of the 522 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,380 Speaker 1: government subsidized housing that was built around the country only addressed, 523 00:32:02,460 --> 00:32:06,140 Speaker 1: in his opinion, the housing itself and not community features 524 00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:10,650 Speaker 1: like recreation, school, utilities, and services like fire and police. 525 00:32:11,710 --> 00:32:14,570 Speaker 1: His own writing placed recreation first on that list. This 526 00:32:14,630 --> 00:32:19,020 Speaker 1: is another thing that I find slightly, I don't even 527 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,100 Speaker 1: want to say infuriating, but it's like you see how 528 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,260 Speaker 1: easily he has become a figure of controversy because he 529 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,650 Speaker 1: says things in some ways that sound reasonable. Of course, 530 00:32:29,710 --> 00:32:32,310 Speaker 1: communities should have all the things that support them. But 531 00:32:32,330 --> 00:32:34,310 Speaker 1: then he also says things like, just put a road there. 532 00:32:34,750 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: So it's a problem. Another issue that he mentions in 533 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,860 Speaker 1: these plans is that tenants in subsidized houses that pay 534 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: a reduced rent just don't provide enough money for the 535 00:32:46,580 --> 00:32:50,470 Speaker 1: upkeep of those facilities, let alone the to maintain the community, 536 00:32:50,570 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: so there's an ongoing financial problem. As he put it, quote, 537 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: Moses wanted the income from partially subsidized housing invested so 538 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,340 Speaker 1: that it could, in the long term, provide some sort 539 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:12,210 Speaker 1: of fiscal growth. His next point is that the problem 540 00:33:12,390 --> 00:33:16,580 Speaker 1: only continues to grow because the definition of low income 541 00:33:16,690 --> 00:33:19,980 Speaker 1: continues to expand, which means that more and more people 542 00:33:20,060 --> 00:33:24,540 Speaker 1: qualify for subsidized housing and the financial imbalance of income 543 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: versus expense only gets worse. Additionally, he expresses frustration that 544 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: if federal and state governments fund subsidized housing, bureaucrats want 545 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: to be the boss of the program without understanding it. 546 00:33:37,340 --> 00:33:40,540 Speaker 1: The issue of land cost is also addressed in this article, 547 00:33:40,660 --> 00:33:43,820 Speaker 1: and this is one of the most controversial aspects of 548 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: the Moses approach. He states that acquiring a lot of 549 00:33:47,460 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: land at a reasonable price becomes impossible and that this 550 00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:53,900 Speaker 1: is the solution. Quote, in this situation, the power of 551 00:33:54,020 --> 00:33:59,050 Speaker 1: eminent domain is the only salvation. Condemnation must be exercised 552 00:33:59,090 --> 00:34:04,270 Speaker 1: for the private limited dividend or redevelopment company by the city, state, 553 00:34:04,330 --> 00:34:08,180 Speaker 1: or federal government. So basically just condemn those places and 554 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,820 Speaker 1: we can just seize them. But there is still a 555 00:34:10,860 --> 00:34:13,710 Speaker 1: need for investment, and he cites an agreement that the 556 00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:17,770 Speaker 1: state actually came to with Metropolitan Life Insurance Company to 557 00:34:17,830 --> 00:34:21,370 Speaker 1: invest in slum clearance projects as a great achievement that 558 00:34:21,410 --> 00:34:25,980 Speaker 1: required courage on the part of the company to buy into. Next, 559 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,500 Speaker 1: he addresses rehabilitation and its place in improving troubled areas 560 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,340 Speaker 1: of the city. This is another instance where he talks 561 00:34:33,410 --> 00:34:37,730 Speaker 1: about how perfectionists ruin everything because they won't usually agree 562 00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:42,170 Speaker 1: to just adapting old tenements to be sanitary and fireproof. 563 00:34:42,210 --> 00:34:45,510 Speaker 1: They want to build brand new buildings. He notes that, quote, 564 00:34:45,550 --> 00:34:49,669 Speaker 1: this situation can be measurably improved by cutting through new 565 00:34:49,770 --> 00:34:53,850 Speaker 1: streets and pedestrian lanes and by establishing small neighborhood parks 566 00:34:53,930 --> 00:34:57,830 Speaker 1: and playgrounds. The average brick tenement has a good deal 567 00:34:57,870 --> 00:35:01,470 Speaker 1: of life left, and people can live decently in crowded 568 00:35:01,550 --> 00:35:05,690 Speaker 1: quarters if they have heat, hot water, bathrooms, fire escapes, 569 00:35:05,890 --> 00:35:08,790 Speaker 1: as well as light and gas. And then he goes 570 00:35:08,870 --> 00:35:12,969 Speaker 1: after the unions, calling organized labor, quote, a serious obstacle 571 00:35:13,090 --> 00:35:16,770 Speaker 1: in the way of financing slum clearance. He talks about 572 00:35:16,810 --> 00:35:20,610 Speaker 1: the union's insistence on preserving its right to hourly wages, 573 00:35:20,690 --> 00:35:25,549 Speaker 1: how dare, strikes, and, quote, resistance to inventions and improvements 574 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: in the building field, all being things that are causing problems. 575 00:35:29,980 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: He writes, quote, the notion that every effort to reduce 576 00:35:32,739 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: building costs, every advance in building technique is an attack 577 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,060 Speaker 1: on unionism and a conspiracy against the laboring man is 578 00:35:40,140 --> 00:35:43,910 Speaker 1: so deep-seated that there seems no possibility of dislodging it. 579 00:35:44,590 --> 00:35:47,410 Speaker 1: This attitude makes no sense, but it will not change 580 00:35:47,469 --> 00:35:51,390 Speaker 1: until we deal with another generation of union officials educated 581 00:35:51,489 --> 00:35:55,190 Speaker 1: in a better school. I might be misreading, but this 582 00:35:55,210 --> 00:35:57,620 Speaker 1: sure sounds like he wants to ditch all the protections 583 00:35:57,900 --> 00:36:01,450 Speaker 1: of a union and everything that a union exists for 584 00:36:01,930 --> 00:36:04,819 Speaker 1: in the name of faster and cheaper construction. That was 585 00:36:04,860 --> 00:36:07,980 Speaker 1: how it read to me, too. I was like, I 586 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,020 Speaker 1: puzzled over this yesterday for a long time going, am 587 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,940 Speaker 1: I am I taking crazy pills? Is he basically saying 588 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,060 Speaker 1: the union stinks because it won't let me make people 589 00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:20,500 Speaker 1: work for 80 hours a week for two bucks an hour? Right, right. 590 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: Then he concludes the article by noting that the other 591 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: need to consider is preventing slums from forming by raising 592 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: zoning standards. He believes that real estate promoters, banks, and 593 00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: other entities at the financial stake in the slums all 594 00:36:34,540 --> 00:36:37,339 Speaker 1: bear some blame for the problem as they have all 595 00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:41,069 Speaker 1: used their influence to keep standards low. See, that's one 596 00:36:41,090 --> 00:36:42,910 Speaker 1: of the moments where I'm like, that part makes sense. 597 00:36:42,989 --> 00:36:45,450 Speaker 1: I understand, like, these people that are, you know, in 598 00:36:45,489 --> 00:36:49,130 Speaker 1: it for the money are leveraging the people they know 599 00:36:49,170 --> 00:36:52,339 Speaker 1: in government. to not make them clean anything up. That's 600 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:59,670 Speaker 1: all true. That sounds reasonable. And then he keeps talking. Okay, 601 00:36:59,730 --> 00:37:04,350 Speaker 1: so we have shared a lot from this very opinionated article, 602 00:37:04,370 --> 00:37:07,650 Speaker 1: and it represents a sort of midpoint in the career 603 00:37:07,730 --> 00:37:09,879 Speaker 1: of Robert Moses for a lot of people. So we're 604 00:37:09,890 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: going to stop here, and we are actually going to 605 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:17,860 Speaker 1: continue his story next time. And in the meantime... Is 606 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,700 Speaker 1: there listener mail? Well, here's one. This is from our listener, Kristen. 607 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,419 Speaker 1: She mentions that this is from the behind the scenes 608 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 1: where we were talking about Mary Mallon, but she's talking 609 00:37:28,380 --> 00:37:34,049 Speaker 1: about a thing I specifically mentioned. She writes, Dear Holly 610 00:37:34,090 --> 00:37:36,290 Speaker 1: and Tracy, I was listening as I was driving. I 611 00:37:36,410 --> 00:37:39,250 Speaker 1: actually paused this episode and pulled over because I did 612 00:37:39,290 --> 00:37:42,509 Speaker 1: not want to forget my comments. First, I had my 613 00:37:42,530 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: gallbladder removed two years ago. I went to the ER 614 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,020 Speaker 1: thinking I was having a heart attack. Heart disease runs 615 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,070 Speaker 1: in my dad's family. One of the doctors working the 616 00:37:51,210 --> 00:37:53,370 Speaker 1: ER was at the check-in desk, and he was pretty 617 00:37:53,450 --> 00:37:56,390 Speaker 1: confident it was my gallbladder, but ordered an EKG due 618 00:37:56,430 --> 00:37:59,669 Speaker 1: to family history. My kids are in their late 20s, 619 00:37:59,770 --> 00:38:02,950 Speaker 1: so memory of childbirth pain has faded, but the gallbladder 620 00:38:02,969 --> 00:38:06,660 Speaker 1: pain was awful. Ended up having it removed, then spent 621 00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: months getting my body to adjust to how it processed 622 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: certain types of food. Spice, caffeine, cream, stuff I cook 623 00:38:13,180 --> 00:38:16,450 Speaker 1: with regularly. Me too. I will say, and I don't 624 00:38:16,469 --> 00:38:18,590 Speaker 1: mean to be braggy, my body has been much cooler 625 00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: than a lot of other people's in dealing with post-gallbladder life. 626 00:38:22,780 --> 00:38:24,700 Speaker 1: I have not had the same limitations that many people 627 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: have had to live with. Secondly, she says, I agree 628 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: with Holly about Anthony Bourdain. I read Kitchen Confidential shortly 629 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,810 Speaker 1: before his food travel series aired and my opinion of 630 00:38:34,850 --> 00:38:38,390 Speaker 1: him plummeted. He had berated TV chefs and now he 631 00:38:38,430 --> 00:38:41,009 Speaker 1: was basically doing the same thing. It took me a 632 00:38:41,050 --> 00:38:43,689 Speaker 1: long time to come around as well. Love the show. 633 00:38:44,330 --> 00:38:48,130 Speaker 1: Pet tax pictures are the three voids that keep me busy. Stella, 634 00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:52,090 Speaker 1: long-haired female and complete diva. Even the 80-pound dog bows 635 00:38:52,140 --> 00:38:55,900 Speaker 1: to her. Stella looks a lot like our cat, Marva, 636 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,860 Speaker 1: which means I'm in love with her. She is absolutely beautiful. 637 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:06,029 Speaker 1: She is a long-haired, gorgeous black cat. She and Marva 638 00:39:06,110 --> 00:39:11,029 Speaker 1: could probably get into some legal trouble together. I always 639 00:39:11,050 --> 00:39:12,709 Speaker 1: joke I'm going to wake up one day and find 640 00:39:12,790 --> 00:39:15,390 Speaker 1: out that The D-dar house has somehow been transferred to 641 00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:17,850 Speaker 1: the cat, and it's because Marva went to law school 642 00:39:17,890 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: in the night. There's also another absolutely beautiful, it looks 643 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,320 Speaker 1: like a solid black kitty, but it could have some coloring, 644 00:39:25,969 --> 00:39:29,030 Speaker 1: kind of wedging itself through the opening in a sewing 645 00:39:29,090 --> 00:39:34,620 Speaker 1: machine between the main machine and the needle underneath the arm. 646 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,450 Speaker 1: I've had cats do that as well. They're so cute. Oh, 647 00:39:38,530 --> 00:39:42,260 Speaker 1: says Garibaldi, youngest, loves fabric and my embroidery machine must 648 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,060 Speaker 1: always be supervised. Looks all black in the second picture. 649 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,700 Speaker 1: Absolutely adorable. I don't even let my cats in the 650 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,879 Speaker 1: sewing room when the embroidery machine is going because I'm 651 00:39:51,980 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: scared someone will stick their paw in there. And it's 652 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,430 Speaker 1: running automatically. So I'm not there to just take the 653 00:39:58,469 --> 00:40:00,529 Speaker 1: pedal off. I would have to run over and stop it. 654 00:40:01,350 --> 00:40:03,950 Speaker 1: And I'm too scared to. So and then the beautiful 655 00:40:03,950 --> 00:40:06,610 Speaker 1: 80 pound dog, which is a big white fluffy. It 656 00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:10,390 Speaker 1: looks like a Samoyed. Not positive. Could be a great peer. 657 00:40:11,030 --> 00:40:13,860 Speaker 1: Not clear based on this picture. And then she signs off. 658 00:40:14,140 --> 00:40:17,580 Speaker 1: That dog is very beautiful, though. It's lying down, which 659 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: is why it's really hard to tell, to gauge the 660 00:40:20,260 --> 00:40:23,060 Speaker 1: size and the They look very similar to me. Also, 661 00:40:23,140 --> 00:40:24,980 Speaker 1: I don't know as much about dog breeds as I 662 00:40:25,020 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: do cat breeds. I know a fair amount, but not. Anyway, Kristen, 663 00:40:28,980 --> 00:40:31,850 Speaker 1: this email is terrific. I also really just wanted to 664 00:40:31,890 --> 00:40:33,969 Speaker 1: read it because it was another instance of someone who 665 00:40:34,030 --> 00:40:37,209 Speaker 1: has had a child saying that gallbladder pain was pretty 666 00:40:37,230 --> 00:40:42,469 Speaker 1: darn bad. Thank you so much for writing this. I'm 667 00:40:42,630 --> 00:40:46,010 Speaker 1: kind of obsessed with these cats, most especially beautiful Stella, 668 00:40:46,090 --> 00:40:50,549 Speaker 1: of course, because she is a supermodel. If you would 669 00:40:50,570 --> 00:40:53,150 Speaker 1: like to write to us and share your supermodel pets 670 00:40:53,690 --> 00:40:56,359 Speaker 1: or anything that you think is of interest or your 671 00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:58,660 Speaker 1: stories of going to the hospital, whatever it is, I'm 672 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: down to read it. You can do that at HistoryPodcast 673 00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:06,540 Speaker 1: at iHeartRadio.com. You can also find show notes for today's 674 00:41:06,580 --> 00:41:09,260 Speaker 1: episode or any of the shows that we have done, 675 00:41:09,860 --> 00:41:12,410 Speaker 1: at least in the past. I want to say recent past, 676 00:41:12,450 --> 00:41:14,430 Speaker 1: but it's been like a decade. Those are at Missed 677 00:41:14,469 --> 00:41:17,250 Speaker 1: in History. If you just click into any of the episodes, 678 00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:18,989 Speaker 1: you'll see the show notes with all of the things 679 00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:22,650 Speaker 1: we use to research. And we hope that you enjoy 680 00:41:22,690 --> 00:41:25,830 Speaker 1: those if you want to continue to read about anything 681 00:41:25,870 --> 00:41:29,070 Speaker 1: we talk about. You can also subscribe to the show 682 00:41:29,140 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: if you haven't done that yet. That is very, very simple. 683 00:41:31,660 --> 00:41:35,180 Speaker 1: It's an easy operation of clicking a thing on your 684 00:41:35,219 --> 00:41:38,060 Speaker 1: phone on the iHeartRadio app. Or really, you can do 685 00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:45,950 Speaker 1: that anywhere you listen to podcasts. Stuff You Missed in 686 00:41:45,969 --> 00:41:49,700 Speaker 1: History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 687 00:41:49,739 --> 00:41:53,890 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 688 00:41:53,930 --> 00:41:55,350 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.