Speaker 1: Joe Loyer has agreed to answer our questions, so please
Speaker 1: send yours to info at Orbitmedia dot fm, or leave
Speaker 1: them in the comments on Spotify or Apple. Thank you hither,
Speaker 1: It's Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. You're listening to Get
Speaker 1: the Money and Run. In this episode, episode two, we
Speaker 1: ask the question what happens when a protector cannot protect
Speaker 1: those he loves most. I find this episode, particularly part three, heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: I think you will too. To binge all seven episodes
Speaker 1: at once and ad free. Subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. All right over to Ben.
Speaker 2: You are listening to The Burden season four, Get the
Speaker 2: Money and Run there and this is episode two. Who's
Speaker 2: your daddy?
Speaker 3: How did you?
Speaker 2: How did you discover this bank right here?
Speaker 4: You know a lot of times what I would do
Speaker 4: is I'd go to areas and I would just we
Speaker 4: would drive around and see if there's possibilities.
Speaker 5: Of banks to rob.
Speaker 4: I used to spend a lot of time down the
Speaker 4: street here at a friend's house, so I know this area.
Speaker 4: I finally drove past this bank and I thought, hey,
Speaker 4: you know what, it's not the kind of bank I robbed,
Speaker 4: which is on the corner because my whole thing was
Speaker 4: I like to leave a bank. So when I'm followed,
Speaker 4: people step out of the bank and immediately start swiving
Speaker 4: in their head side to side looking for cars driving
Speaker 4: around it, who are trying to get in and out
Speaker 4: of the parking lot because they're looking for a getaway car.
Speaker 4: Here they would see me leave the bank and not
Speaker 4: get into a car in the parking lot where all
Speaker 4: the cars are. That's too easy for them. So I
Speaker 4: had to park far away. You want to get on walker, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Let's good, let's walk. Let's see what would have happened.
Speaker 3: So now you've parked your car now and now you're
Speaker 3: walking to the bank.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I get out of the car. I feel
Speaker 5: like I've.
Speaker 4: Marshaled enough for my will and violence and determination and focus.
Speaker 5: So I'm gonna walk in. I'm gonna do what I do.
Speaker 5: But when I start giving delivery my spiel, I notice
Speaker 5: that in the back.
Speaker 4: There's a woman who's the manager. She spots me and
Speaker 4: she realized I'm wronging the bank. Eyes locked on me fearlessly.
Speaker 4: I get the money I spend and I come out
Speaker 4: the front here and I think, all right, I've done
Speaker 4: my business.
Speaker 5: So when I walk out of the bank, I start
Speaker 5: walking here.
Speaker 4: I look back and the woman's over there and kind
Speaker 4: of like hiding behind a car, and I'm like, what
Speaker 4: the hell He's like, I'm gonna try and follow me
Speaker 4: down the street. And this is why I don't like
Speaker 4: this kind of setup, because my car is right down there.
Speaker 4: She's gonna see it. So I look at her and
Speaker 4: I basically say, like I do my finger like naw,
Speaker 4: you woman, don't do this.
Speaker 5: You don't want to do this. Then again, but just like.
Speaker 4: We go on my finger at her like almost like
Speaker 4: a skull, she don't run back in I'll turn around
Speaker 4: and I'm like, ah fuck, I know she's gonna follow
Speaker 4: me because she's not afraid of me. So I walked
Speaker 4: down about halfway through this thing there, and I turn around.
Speaker 4: Sure you know she's walking to take care's someone like
Speaker 4: a cartoon where she's like doing on once on.
Speaker 5: Her tiptoe slowly like she's right here.
Speaker 4: So now I aggressively look back and I'm like I
Speaker 4: pointed her really aggressively, like you no go back, and
Speaker 4: she doesn't move. So I just turn around and start
Speaker 4: walking faster, and about three steps I immediately pivot and
Speaker 4: I start running right at her, and I start reaching
Speaker 4: into my coat and her eyes again, We're like cartoon turner,
Speaker 4: and I run out of her hair, and she just
Speaker 4: looked at me and just fun and just like started
Speaker 4: running as fast as she could.
Speaker 5: She was scared. Now now I got her. I'm running
Speaker 5: full speed of her, reaching into my pocket.
Speaker 4: As soon as she spends and starts running, I take
Speaker 4: two more steps and then pivot and run straight from
Speaker 4: my car.
Speaker 5: I have ten steps before she's even gonna stop to
Speaker 5: turn around. She's so scared. I got her scared, so.
Speaker 4: I immediately go to my car, jump in and make
Speaker 4: a U turn that way. That woman I always like, man,
Speaker 4: I like admire that woman. There's something she has some gumption.
Speaker 4: I hope that's in the DNA, man, because that shit
Speaker 4: that bodes well for her family.
Speaker 2: Part one the Good Life.
Speaker 3: So after the last episode, I wanted to get some
Speaker 3: other perspectives on young Joe's family life and childhood. Thought
Speaker 3: i'd play some of those interviews.
Speaker 6: Joe was cute as a cute as a bug the kid.
Speaker 6: He was a talkative, He's very charismatic, giving as a
Speaker 6: little kid, and bright, really bright, and you could tell
Speaker 6: he was already a going to be a leader by
Speaker 6: the time he's four and five. The kids would follow him.
Speaker 6: He wouldn't follow anybody. He was the one that took
Speaker 6: the leader and everything. And I would observe that, and
Speaker 6: I said, this kid is going to be a leader.
Speaker 6: This kid has a mind of his own.
Speaker 3: This is Joe's dad, Joe Loyr. There was a time
Speaker 3: before all the abuse that we heard about in the
Speaker 3: last episode. Stuff we're going to be unpacking for the
Speaker 3: next several episodes, and joe'sdad is going to sound like
Speaker 3: a villain. Both Joe's are going to sound like villains
Speaker 3: before we're done. But they're not just villains. So before
Speaker 3: we get into all the ins and outs, victims and assailants,
Speaker 3: terrors and terrorized, I want to mark this time, the
Speaker 3: time before before the wife and mother died, before things
Speaker 3: went too far, when young just Sor was a new
Speaker 3: dad with all the optimism and promise provided by his
Speaker 3: new family, and young Joe Junior was cute and smart
Speaker 3: and full of potential and hope for the future.
Speaker 2: They both were.
Speaker 6: One day I asked, I used to ask him. He'd
Speaker 6: be playing around and I'd be in the kitchen doing it, reading, studying, learning,
Speaker 6: and i'd I need to come running. The little guy. Okay,
Speaker 6: he was just five. So he comes into the kitchen. Yes, daddy, Hey,
Speaker 6: you love me? Yes, I love you a lot. I
Speaker 6: love you a lot.
Speaker 5: How much you loved me? I love you.
Speaker 6: He's learning his numbers, right.
Speaker 5: I love you a hundred. I love you a hundred,
Speaker 5: a lot of hundreds.
Speaker 6: And one day he came home. He looks at me,
Speaker 6: he says, Daddy, did you know that numbers never end?
Speaker 6: I said, yes, I know that. So a few days
Speaker 6: later and knew near the routine. He comes in there
Speaker 6: and I said, how much you love daddy? This time
Speaker 6: he doesn't just answer quickly. He thinks about it. He
Speaker 6: says the most sweet things for a kid. He says,
Speaker 6: I love you more than counting goes. I love you
Speaker 6: more than counting goes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Joe was everything
Speaker 6: you could ever want, I could ever want in a child.
Speaker 6: He was so incredibly wonderful. I remember that I would
Speaker 6: come in, he'd hear the door knocking, and he'd sitting
Speaker 6: on his he'd be sitting on his high chair and
Speaker 6: he was just you know, sitting there. And then I
Speaker 6: poked my head and go pick a booh, and he'd
Speaker 6: go crazy hitting it, laughing, and just really kind of
Speaker 6: felt so great, so terrific. That's an image that's here.
Speaker 6: And he grew up and he was just so incredibly wonderful.
Speaker 6: I just I was so proud of him.
Speaker 2: This is Joe's younger brother, Paul.
Speaker 7: And one of the things and God blessed him for this.
Speaker 7: One of the things that my mother and my father
Speaker 7: did was they Now that I think about it, maybe
Speaker 7: that's not a good thing, but they gave Joe the responsibility.
Speaker 7: And you know, as I imagine that, you know, having
Speaker 7: a two year old responsibility, giving the two year old
Speaker 7: some responsibility, but they told him it was his job
Speaker 7: to kind of like protect me because he was the
Speaker 7: older brother, and Joe, you know, being Joe, kind of
Speaker 7: understood like he had this role in my life. Certainly
Speaker 7: growing up. He he was very much a protector of me.
Speaker 7: I was the shy kid who hung out with his brother.
Speaker 7: Because we moved around a lot, there was always a
Speaker 7: new set of friends, there was always a new set
Speaker 7: of circumstances, and Joe was much more advanced in interacting
Speaker 7: in these situations than I was I was much more insecure.
Speaker 7: I was much more afraid, and Joe knew that. And
Speaker 7: Joe would always let me tag along because he was
Speaker 7: my brother. Joe allowed me into his world. And because
Speaker 7: he allowed me into his world, people gave me that respect.
Speaker 7: And you know, I remember I didn't have friends. They
Speaker 7: were always Joe's friends. Now years later, even into high school,
Speaker 7: the friends that I had weren't always my age. They
Speaker 7: were the friends that Joe would make. And then I
Speaker 7: would tag along and become Joe's friends, and then we
Speaker 7: would all be, you know, hanging out and you know,
Speaker 7: lo and behold. I would get friends through, like through
Speaker 7: that avenue, but it was always because of Joe. And
Speaker 7: I remember when I first started learning guitar. I was horrible.
Speaker 7: I was horrible. Man. I look back and I was like,
Speaker 7: I don't even know why. I was like like I
Speaker 7: picked up that instrument, but I was like, you know,
Speaker 7: I was so brand new a guitar, and Joe was said, Hey,
Speaker 7: I'm gonna go to this Bible study tonight, and and
Speaker 7: I would tell you, hey, can I bring my guitar
Speaker 7: and would be yeah, yeah, bon man, like it's cool,
Speaker 7: you know, maybe you could play in front of people
Speaker 7: and stuff like that, and you know where nobody in
Speaker 7: my family ever would give me that credibility. Joe always
Speaker 7: gave that credibility to me. But you know, as long
Speaker 7: as I knew that it was cool with Joe, that
Speaker 7: it was cool that I was, that I was all right,
Speaker 7: you know, but that's still Those are the types of
Speaker 7: things where I can't really articulate, like say, hey, you know,
Speaker 7: Joe would come over and you know, rubber stat me
Speaker 7: and say, this is my brother, He's cool. Lah la lah.
Speaker 7: These are just the things that emotionally that I knew
Speaker 7: because that's the world that I lived in, was the
Speaker 7: emotional world. And I lived in a world of of
Speaker 7: you know, like am I okay? Am I not okay? Emotionally?
Speaker 7: So I lived in that world and Joe always made
Speaker 7: sure that I felt okay.
Speaker 2: This is Anne Hefernan. She was a friend of Joe's
Speaker 2: when he was robbing banks.
Speaker 8: Joe he knows how to make people love him and
Speaker 8: he knows how to use language. Some people might feel
Speaker 8: manipulated by that, but I don't mind being manipulated because
Speaker 8: I don't mind it. I totally got something out of it.
Speaker 8: I mean Joe changed my life. Joe wasn't like anyone
Speaker 8: I had ever met before, and I was this good
Speaker 8: girl who didn't necessarily want to be a good girl.
Speaker 8: And so when a hot Mexican bank robber comes to
Speaker 8: work in your restaurant and you perk up. Joe came
Speaker 8: in and he's so full of life, super dynamic, super
Speaker 8: self assured, and he paid attention to me, and.
Speaker 7: I like that.
Speaker 8: He just was super jovial, like super super up, super funny. Joe.
Speaker 8: He loves women, so if you're working in a restaurant,
Speaker 8: you're surrounded by women generally, right. But also, if I
Speaker 8: remember correctly, I'm pretty sure he held a knife to
Speaker 8: someone in the freezer. Maybe someone had said something to
Speaker 8: his girlfriend or so. There was also this rogue kind
Speaker 8: of piece of him that made him even that much
Speaker 8: more interesting. We started talking and he liked that I
Speaker 8: knew books, and then he was really well read, so
Speaker 8: he would start quoting from Nietzsche and the whole time,
Speaker 8: I'm like, be my boyfriend, my boyfriend, my boyfriend, my boyfriend.
Speaker 7: Right, but you know he has this girlfriend.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm going to be his girlfriend. I'm going
Speaker 1: to be going to be my boyfriend, my friend.
Speaker 8: The one time I remember the most was the time
Speaker 8: when we went to the pantry after work and he
Speaker 8: slid this envelope across from me and he said, this
Speaker 8: is who I am. And I opened it up and
Speaker 8: it was this piece of paper. It was his handwriting,
Speaker 8: and it said something like so he was trying to
Speaker 8: tell a story. The idea was he was trying to
Speaker 8: create a dialogue. And I felt so honored at that moment,
Speaker 8: and he gave it to me because I felt like
Speaker 8: he was really sharing himself with me. And so the
Speaker 8: most wonderful thing that can happen in a relationship is
Speaker 8: when someone hands you their soul, Like there was a
Speaker 8: glimpse into the truth. And then there was We had
Speaker 8: a Christmas party. Some of the busboy were flirting with me,
Speaker 8: and Joe came and he just like swept me up
Speaker 8: and he took me out of that party and then
Speaker 8: we went back to my place and for that night
Speaker 8: I was his girlfriend. So I was living in North
Speaker 8: Hollywood over this bookie, this bookie's house, and I was
Speaker 8: living in the upstairs apartment and Joe came over and
Speaker 8: we're walking up the stairs and then we put on
Speaker 8: Peter Gabriel. I think in your eyes and we're dancing,
Speaker 8: and I just thought that, I know, that was so beautiful.
Speaker 8: And then and then we got naked.
Speaker 5: We'll be right back.
Speaker 2: Part two, Troublemaker.
Speaker 4: I don't think I saw, oh, I want a track
Speaker 4: to be a criminal. This is how you behave as
Speaker 4: a criminal. In fact, when I looked around and I
Speaker 4: saw guys that were these young little trollos, I was
Speaker 4: like those guys on a track to go to prison.
Speaker 4: Those guys are already like using drugs and you know,
Speaker 4: carrying weapons. What I was doing was just stupid, sloppy suffering,
Speaker 4: like I was just messing up. I felt this strong
Speaker 4: sense of entitlement and I wanted to take shit right. So,
Speaker 4: for example, I saw something, I wanted it to belong
Speaker 4: to somebody I cared about, and I didn't give a fuck.
Speaker 5: I had to go get it. Like that is.
Speaker 4: Already showing you I was gonna be a guy who's
Speaker 4: get out of my way.
Speaker 5: If I wants something, I'm gonna go get it. If
Speaker 5: there's somebody who loves me, cares for me, whatever, whatever,
Speaker 5: I don't give a fuck.
Speaker 4: I need to go get it. And your incident to
Speaker 4: in my life. In my imagination, just people were objects.
Speaker 4: When I would later become a bank robber and I
Speaker 4: would walk in to these towers, I didn't see them
Speaker 4: as human beings. I've said it before, when I walked
Speaker 4: in there with the rage that I had, they were
Speaker 4: chess pieces on a board.
Speaker 5: They just needed to move.
Speaker 4: I didn't care anything about their family, their futures, their goals,
Speaker 4: their aspirations, their dreams, their resentments. I didn't care anything
Speaker 4: that made them human. It was a confusing, desperate, fearful
Speaker 4: time for me. And my dad has a you know,
Speaker 4: a ministry, and I'm getting beat in the week. But
Speaker 4: then on Sunday, you know, all these Christians are like,
Speaker 4: all this man's the greatest guy on earth and this
Speaker 4: is actually all of this is the stew that's turning
Speaker 4: into rage.
Speaker 2: Here's Joe's brother Paul.
Speaker 7: It was, it was. It was a weird time, you know,
Speaker 7: it was a really weird time that those years. You know, Yeah,
Speaker 7: this difficult story too. Yeah, I'm gonna whether this one.
Speaker 7: I'm gonna whether this one. But this is a difficult
Speaker 7: story for me that it's one of the things that
Speaker 7: is a really defining moment in my life. I'm gonna
Speaker 7: whether this one again. I don't know what day of
Speaker 7: the week or anything like that, but I know that
Speaker 7: I was washing dishes and I and I know that
Speaker 7: I rarely washed dishes at the time. Like I was like,
Speaker 7: we know, you have certain roles when you were a
Speaker 7: little kids, and you know, I was always the dryer.
Speaker 7: I was never the washer. I was always the dryer.
Speaker 7: Joe was always the washer. I was always the dryer.
Speaker 7: But this particular time, you know, my dad yelled at us,
Speaker 7: and you know, I was again, I was always I
Speaker 7: was always moved by fear. So I automatically went to
Speaker 7: the washer and I started washing dishes. And I was
Speaker 7: nervous and I was just like this this bag of
Speaker 7: nerves and so I'm missed. And I was not a
Speaker 7: very good washer. But you know, again, I'm fourteen years old,
Speaker 7: thirteen and a half probably at the time. And my
Speaker 7: dad ended up going to the to the dishes that
Speaker 7: I had washed, and he picked up a few and
Speaker 7: you know, obviously I was deficient in my washing capabilities,
Speaker 7: and he got upset and he started yelling at me.
Speaker 5: And he punched my brother in the rib in the
Speaker 5: back of the ribs, grabs my brother by, pounces on him,
Speaker 5: grabs by the back of my hair, and starts dunking
Speaker 5: his head in the soapy dishwater.
Speaker 7: He stuck my head under the hot water, the scalding water,
Speaker 7: and Joe was sitting there rinsing the dishes, and he
Speaker 7: was just appalled at what it was a cream.
Speaker 5: And I'm paralyzed with fear, holding the plate, looking at him,
Speaker 5: scared to death.
Speaker 7: Right because my dad started putting my face into the water,
Speaker 7: and what I did was just automatically turned my head.
Speaker 7: And when I turned my head, I think I turned
Speaker 7: my head to Joe, so our eyes met and for
Speaker 7: a split second there, Joe could see the fear, and
Speaker 7: it was one of those just one of those really
Speaker 7: poignant times in my life where I just had eye
Speaker 7: contact with Joe and Joe knew that I was afraid
Speaker 7: and Joe couldn't protect me. Joe wanted to protect me,
Speaker 7: but he couldn't. And my dad is holding my head underwater.
Speaker 7: He lifts my face back up after a few seconds
Speaker 7: that he just gets right up to my face, man,
Speaker 7: right up to my face, and he says, you know,
Speaker 7: he says, you know, you should have died instead of
Speaker 7: your mother.
Speaker 5: He lifts Paul's head on and he says, the words
Speaker 5: are just just I mean, you should have died instead
Speaker 5: of your mother.
Speaker 7: Thirteen and a half, fourteen. You know, it's one of
Speaker 7: those defining moments in my life that it's just really
Speaker 7: really it's just really really sad to remember it. It's
Speaker 7: really sad to discuss it. But I know that it's
Speaker 7: not who I am. I know it's not true. I
Speaker 7: know that I've resolved and reconciled it. I'm you know,
Speaker 7: I'm a good person.
Speaker 3: I try to, you know.
Speaker 7: I mean, like that's I'm a survivor of abuse and
Speaker 7: I can't believe that that happened to me. But it did,
Speaker 7: and it's still still hurts, you know, it's still earth.
Speaker 7: It's something that will always hurt. It's something that's really
Speaker 7: difficult for me to reconcile. But you know, I'm not
Speaker 7: that little boy anymore, and I'm a lot stronger. I'm
Speaker 7: a lot stronger.
Speaker 5: It is the worst memory in my life, and I
Speaker 5: remember that night thinking I want to die. I just
Speaker 5: want to die one because I had always been this
Speaker 5: brave kid who protected my brother, and that day I
Speaker 5: could not do. And I was haunted by my brother's
Speaker 5: face and water coming out of his nose and his
Speaker 5: eyes a supplication looking at me like just terrified, and
Speaker 5: I wanted to die. I wanted It was seriously like suicides,
Speaker 5: take me, Jesus christ Man. I don't want to even
Speaker 5: be here. I cannot live with my cowardice. I confronted
Speaker 5: cowardice that day. And here's the thing. I was smart.
Speaker 5: I was intense. I had this aggression, and I felt
Speaker 5: my heart was big and muscular, and even though I
Speaker 5: was getting beat down, I felt like I was made
Speaker 5: to be bigger than this. Right, this is what's happening
Speaker 5: to me now. But one day I'm gonna be blof.
Speaker 5: And that's why this was so crushing to me, because
Speaker 5: I'm sitting there and I feel pathetic. I feel terrible,
Speaker 5: And I started thinking, oh shit, that dude wants to
Speaker 5: kill us. He wants one of them, yes, certainly wishes
Speaker 5: my brother hadn't lived. He wants my brother dead. What
Speaker 5: about me? We're in Alhambra. I graduated from Ahamborough High
Speaker 5: School actually, but we're in al Hambro eleventh grade. February
Speaker 5: February's the worst life for my day of a month
Speaker 5: of my life, every bad shit that I were having
Speaker 5: in my mother's death. This event February sucks for me.
Speaker 5: It was February and my dad has a girlfriend who
Speaker 5: I like, and I one day she takes us to Sizzler.
Speaker 5: That's what I mean. She was cool. She took us
Speaker 5: a Sizzler. And in those days, sister was the bomb man,
Speaker 5: like you know, steak house and everything. My sister. One thing,
Speaker 5: I've become a connoisseur of knives. I like knives. Sister
Speaker 5: has great knives. And I remember we were talking to
Speaker 5: her and I tell her that she needs to be
Speaker 5: my dad. My dad's brutal bates us. He's a fraud.
Speaker 5: And I tell her these stories of abuse because I
Speaker 5: want her to know that super dramatic, the terrible things
Speaker 5: he does to us. But in telling those stories, I
Speaker 5: realized I really made my of look soft ass, weak
Speaker 5: and pathetic and in a in a moment of peak
Speaker 5: and you know, kind of like quiet humiliation, I just
Speaker 5: pick up the steak knife and in fact, you know,
Speaker 5: so saddened, biopathetic. I made myself sound. I pick up
Speaker 5: the knife, I claim the knife, I I I speak
Speaker 5: what I'm gonna do the next time he says, I'm
Speaker 5: gonna stab him in the neck. Next time he hits it,
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna stab him the neck. Did you say that?
Speaker 5: Or I said that? And I hold up the knife
Speaker 5: And it's like being a novelist, like if you show
Speaker 5: the gun in the first act, it has to go off.
Speaker 2: You're listening to The Burden season four, Get the Money
Speaker 2: and Run. The Burden is produced by Orbit Media. Get
Speaker 2: the Money and Run is produced by Western Sound and
Speaker 2: Acast Studios. Next up, stay tuned for episode three, The Hunter.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Remember to hear all episodes all at
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Speaker 1: hear Ben talk about this episode, check out the teaser
Speaker 1: it's in the Burden feed