1
00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,519
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from housework

2
00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:14,560
Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy

3
00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,080
Speaker 1: the Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. So this episode of

4
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,439
Speaker 1: Stuffy miss and History Class is part of a two

5
00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,279
Speaker 1: part series on the history of redlining. And often are

6
00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,159
Speaker 1: two partners like they can stand alone reasonably well, but

7
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,520
Speaker 1: in this case, part one really is necessary to making

8
00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,120
Speaker 1: sense of part two. So if you've skipped part one,

9
00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,040
Speaker 1: hopefully like you're maybe a brand new listener to the show,

10
00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,920
Speaker 1: we really really encourage you to pause this one, listen

11
00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:45,080
Speaker 1: to our previous episode, and then come back to this one. Also,

12
00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:46,960
Speaker 1: one of the things that we're going to talk about

13
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,240
Speaker 1: today is the language that it's the assessors used when

14
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 1: making color coded maps of neighborhoods and segregated cities to

15
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,680
Speaker 1: use as a reference on whether mortgage lending in those

16
00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,240
Speaker 1: neighborhoods was desirable or not. We're also gonna talk about

17
00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,360
Speaker 1: the language of the instructions and language and other documents also,

18
00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,120
Speaker 1: and some of this language is frankly offensive, and we

19
00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,920
Speaker 1: are including it as part of exploring these maps and

20
00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,120
Speaker 1: what they represented. Uh, we read from a couple of

21
00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,720
Speaker 1: instructions in the previous episode that we're definitely the mildest

22
00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,520
Speaker 1: of all of this. These maps at sort of demonstrate

23
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:26,480
Speaker 1: and also predict ongoing patterns of housing discrimination that have

24
00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,440
Speaker 1: persisted since they were created. As we discussed in the

25
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,400
Speaker 1: previous installment, the Homeowners Loan Corporation was a Depression era

26
00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,640
Speaker 1: government program in the United States that was meant to

27
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,679
Speaker 1: save the homes of people who had defaulted on their mortgages.

28
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,119
Speaker 1: In the h o l C started its City Survey

29
00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,560
Speaker 1: program to map more than two hundred cities around the

30
00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,600
Speaker 1: United States, creating color coded keys of where mortgage lending

31
00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,560
Speaker 1: was desirable and where it was not. They looked at

32
00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,080
Speaker 1: all aspects of the neighborhood, including the terrain, the buildings,

33
00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,120
Speaker 1: the amenities, the residents, and the economic factors tying all

34
00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:07,680
Speaker 1: of this together. The thought process that was kind of

35
00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,880
Speaker 1: guiding the approach to all these maps was that neighborhoods

36
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,160
Speaker 1: go through a predictable and inevitable cycle. First, they would

37
00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,200
Speaker 1: be shiny and new and desirable, with lots of affluent

38
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,240
Speaker 1: people moving into brand new houses in an area with

39
00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,680
Speaker 1: lots of amenities. Then they'd get a little older, a

40
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,079
Speaker 1: little more dated, a little less well maintained. Then quote,

41
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:37,120
Speaker 1: undesirable elements would quote infiltrate these aging neighborhoods. Eventually, these

42
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,640
Speaker 1: undesirables would completely take over and the whole neighborhood would

43
00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:45,560
Speaker 1: be ruined thanks to crime, vandalism, and the population living there. So,

44
00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,840
Speaker 1: combining this overall view about how neighborhoods age with data

45
00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,680
Speaker 1: about the neighborhoods themselves and the people who lived there,

46
00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,320
Speaker 1: the h o LC made a collection of color coded maps.

47
00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,200
Speaker 1: Grade A, the first grade was green. This was the

48
00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,320
Speaker 1: best classification, and these were the most desirable neighborhoods. Grade D,

49
00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:09,160
Speaker 1: the fourth grade, was read or hazardous. These were neighborhoods

50
00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,440
Speaker 1: where mortgage lenders either did not operate or strongly preferred

51
00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,640
Speaker 1: not to operate. The middle two grades, blue and yellow,

52
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,720
Speaker 1: which were also known as still desirable and definitely declining.

53
00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,320
Speaker 1: We're not as desirable as green, but they were not

54
00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,360
Speaker 1: off limits the way these red hazardous neighborhoods were either.

55
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,280
Speaker 1: So here's how the h o LC described the four categories.

56
00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,600
Speaker 1: We're going to read them word for word. Quote. Green

57
00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,520
Speaker 1: areas are hot spots. They are not yet fully built

58
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,440
Speaker 1: up in nearly all instances. They are the new, well

59
00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,600
Speaker 1: planned sections of the city and almost synonymous with the

60
00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 1: areas where good mortgage lenders with available funds are willing

61
00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,720
Speaker 1: to make their maximum loans to be amortized over a

62
00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,320
Speaker 1: ten to fifteen year period, perhaps up to seventy five

63
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,960
Speaker 1: to eight percent of the appraisal. They are homogeneous in

64
00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,680
Speaker 1: demand as residential locations in good time or bad hence

65
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:07,640
Speaker 1: on the upgrade. Blue areas, as a rule, are completely developed.

66
00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 1: They are like a n automobile, still good, but not

67
00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,600
Speaker 1: what the people are buying today who can afford a

68
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,920
Speaker 1: new one. They are the neighborhoods where good mortgage lenders

69
00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,839
Speaker 1: will have a tendency to hold loan commitments ten to

70
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:26,520
Speaker 1: fift under the limit. Yellow areas are characterized by age,

71
00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,640
Speaker 1: obsolescence and change of style, expiring restrictions or lack of them,

72
00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:37,240
Speaker 1: infiltration of a lower grade population, the presence of influences

73
00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:44,120
Speaker 1: which increase sales resistance, such as inadequate transportation, insufficient utilities,

74
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,600
Speaker 1: perhaps heavy tax burdens, who a maintenance of homes, et cetera.

75
00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:55,279
Speaker 1: Ferry built areas are included, as well as neighborhoods lacking homogeneity. Generally,

76
00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,520
Speaker 1: these areas have reached the transition period. Good mortgage lenders

77
00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,160
Speaker 1: are more conservative and the yellow areas and hold commitments

78
00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,520
Speaker 1: under the lending ratio for the green and blue areas.

79
00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,960
Speaker 1: As a side note before Holly reads the red part,

80
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,600
Speaker 1: if you're not familiar with the term jerry built, a

81
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,080
Speaker 1: jerry builder was a term for a speculator who would

82
00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,480
Speaker 1: build a lot of houses out of very cheap, shoddy

83
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:22,440
Speaker 1: materials with kind of unsubstantial construction. Not even the Oxford

84
00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,600
Speaker 1: English Dictionary is sure exactly how the name jerry got

85
00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,160
Speaker 1: attached to it. But to go back to the description,

86
00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,440
Speaker 1: we're going to hit red areas next quote. Red areas

87
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,479
Speaker 1: represent those neighborhoods in which the things that are now

88
00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 1: taking place in the yellow neighborhoods have already happened. They

89
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:45,600
Speaker 1: are characterized by detrimental influences in a pronounced degree, undesirable

90
00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,840
Speaker 1: population or infiltration of it, low percentage of homeownership, very

91
00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:56,080
Speaker 1: poor maintenance and often vandalism prevail. Unstable incomes of the people,

92
00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,359
Speaker 1: and difficult collections are usually prevalent. The areas are rodder

93
00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,200
Speaker 1: than the show called slum districts. Some mortgage lenders may

94
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,880
Speaker 1: refuse to make loans in these neighborhoods, and others will

95
00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:12,279
Speaker 1: lend only on a conservative basis. So after a brief

96
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,200
Speaker 1: word from a sponsor, we're going to look at the

97
00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,880
Speaker 1: maps of Richmond, Virginia as an example of what these

98
00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,000
Speaker 1: maps actually said about the neighborhoods they were documenting. So

99
00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,200
Speaker 1: to get back to these maps, when you look at

100
00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,160
Speaker 1: all of the documentation that went into creating these maps,

101
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,240
Speaker 1: there are some clear and obvious patterns that emerge. We're

102
00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,040
Speaker 1: going to look at the maps of Richmond, Virginia as

103
00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,080
Speaker 1: a primary example because those maps and all of their

104
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,320
Speaker 1: supporting documentation have been digitized as part of a project

105
00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,280
Speaker 1: by the Digital Scholarship Lab of the University of Richmond.

106
00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,080
Speaker 1: We're gonna link to that from our show notes. Uh

107
00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,360
Speaker 1: And to be clear, I looked at the maps for many, many,

108
00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,840
Speaker 1: many other cities and their documentation as part of researching

109
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,200
Speaker 1: these two episodes. And the reason that we are using

110
00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,400
Speaker 1: the Richmond maps for the bulk of the examples is

111
00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,839
Speaker 1: because they WIYH that they have been organized online is

112
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,719
Speaker 1: extremely easy to jump back and forth between the maps

113
00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,159
Speaker 1: and the documentation, and to go back and forth between

114
00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,600
Speaker 1: the different parts of the documentation um, these same trends

115
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 1: are definitely evident and other maps all over the country also.

116
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,440
Speaker 1: When it came to the inhabitants, assessors gave a basic

117
00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 1: description of the types of people living in each neighborhood.

118
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 1: The instruction was, quote what is the general type of

119
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:33,080
Speaker 1: occupation i e. Executive businessmen, retired, professional, clerical, skilled mechanic

120
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:38,200
Speaker 1: or factory workers, laborers, etcetera. In Richmond, Virginia as our example,

121
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,320
Speaker 1: the residents of green sections were described as quote best people.

122
00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,840
Speaker 1: Blue section inhabitants were some more of the best people,

123
00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,120
Speaker 1: as well as salaried workers and quote responsible trades class.

124
00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,400
Speaker 1: In the yellow section, most of the inhabitants are quote

125
00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,960
Speaker 1: working people, mechanics, mill hands, and a number of other

126
00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,840
Speaker 1: specific hourly wage jobs. I would say I did not

127
00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,440
Speaker 1: find as much categorizing of the people in green as

128
00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,240
Speaker 1: best people outside of Richmond, Like there were four specific

129
00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:12,600
Speaker 1: things about them, being various affluent roles like executive people

130
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,560
Speaker 1: and people that were generally wealthier. So in the Richmond

131
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,239
Speaker 1: maps there are twelve red neighborhoods, and as we said before,

132
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 1: these are the ones where mortgage lending was not seen

133
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,840
Speaker 1: as desirable. According to the assessor, they have the lowest

134
00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,280
Speaker 1: annual income of all of the neighborhoods. They also have

135
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,480
Speaker 1: the highest percentage of renters, and seven of the red

136
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,400
Speaker 1: neighborhoods out of the twelve, As I just said, the

137
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:43,520
Speaker 1: inhabitants are described only as a Negro. Four of those

138
00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:48,000
Speaker 1: descriptors are left blank. For comparison, there's only one left

139
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,839
Speaker 1: blank in each of the blue and yellow sections, both

140
00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,840
Speaker 1: of which have far more sections than red. None of

141
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,800
Speaker 1: them are left blank in the Green section the one.

142
00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:04,400
Speaker 1: There is one Red neighborhood that's marked as quote laboring whites.

143
00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,880
Speaker 1: So while the white neighborhoods included information about what people

144
00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,920
Speaker 1: actually did for a living, all that was noted about

145
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,720
Speaker 1: the black neighborhood's inhabitants was that they were black. There

146
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,640
Speaker 1: was a whole separate part of the Richmond assessment that

147
00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,280
Speaker 1: was specifically about race. Richmond's green, blue, and yellow neighborhoods

148
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,760
Speaker 1: are all marked as zero Negro. All of the red

149
00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:32,440
Speaker 1: zones are or more negro, apart from South Richmond, which

150
00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,640
Speaker 1: was zero when this map was made. South Richmond was

151
00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,680
Speaker 1: a working class white neighborhood almost entirely surrounded by two

152
00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:45,480
Speaker 1: other neighborhoods, each of which had a black population. Richmond

153
00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,960
Speaker 1: assessors were also to note, as all other assessors were,

154
00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:54,800
Speaker 1: the infiltration of inhabitants. Here was the instruction to assessors

155
00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,400
Speaker 1: quote any threat of infiltration of foreign born Negro or

156
00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,560
Speaker 1: other low A grade population. If so, indicate these by

157
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:09,959
Speaker 1: nationality and rate of infiltration, like this Negro rapid. That's

158
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,240
Speaker 1: where the quote ends. In the Richmond map. The red

159
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,240
Speaker 1: zones that are not already a hundred percent black were

160
00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,640
Speaker 1: noted with an infiltration of Negro, and one yellow section

161
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:25,520
Speaker 1: was noted as being infiltrated by renters working people. The

162
00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,280
Speaker 1: Richmond maps also emit lots of other detail about any

163
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,800
Speaker 1: of the majority black neighborhoods. There's no description about the

164
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,200
Speaker 1: terrain or the buildings. It was enough to know that

165
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,280
Speaker 1: black people lived there. And while there were blanks left

166
00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,760
Speaker 1: at various spots for other neighborhood types, this was really

167
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,160
Speaker 1: really disproportionate in terms of the black neighborhoods. It would

168
00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,440
Speaker 1: be easy to write all of this off as the

169
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,880
Speaker 1: work of one rogue racist assessor who worked in the Richmond,

170
00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,080
Speaker 1: Virginia area, but the same pattern is true in maps

171
00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,640
Speaker 1: from all over the United States, the black neighborhoods are

172
00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,480
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly marked in red, and the red neighborhoods are disproportionately

173
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,440
Speaker 1: skipped over in terms of actual detail. Other than the

174
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,400
Speaker 1: fact that black people live there. There's also the fact

175
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,439
Speaker 1: that the instructions themselves UH talked about noting an influx

176
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:19,320
Speaker 1: of black residents as a problem. As an example of

177
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,360
Speaker 1: a non Richmond map where these trends are equally apparent,

178
00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 1: in Acron Ohio assessment include includes this in a Grade

179
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:32,080
Speaker 1: Sea neighborhood made of predominantly Italian rubber workers, quote only

180
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,760
Speaker 1: three Negro families located in entire area, and these are

181
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,400
Speaker 1: better type colored and own their own homes. That's the

182
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,880
Speaker 1: end of that quote. A Great d neighborhood in Akron

183
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 1: is described as being predominantly Jewish rubber workers and laborers,

184
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,680
Speaker 1: but with end quote, infiltration of colored fairly rapid, with

185
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:57,920
Speaker 1: quote present heavy Negro encroachment gradually increasing end quote. As

186
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,040
Speaker 1: we said earlier, we are going to link to so

187
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,160
Speaker 1: many of these maps in our show notes, and in

188
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,320
Speaker 1: many cases, people who find maps of their own cities

189
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,200
Speaker 1: at neighborhoods will see the same trends still present and

190
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,160
Speaker 1: who lives where, and which neighborhoods are considered nice. So

191
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,400
Speaker 1: there's some debate among historians about exactly where these maps

192
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,559
Speaker 1: fit in with the process of redlining. The maps themselves

193
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,000
Speaker 1: weren't discovered until nine seventy, long after they were made.

194
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,200
Speaker 1: They kind of disappeared from you for a while after

195
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,520
Speaker 1: the Great Depression. That's unclear how they were actually used

196
00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,120
Speaker 1: in practice. One train of thought is that the h

197
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,400
Speaker 1: o LC maps started the practice of redlining, especially redlining

198
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,800
Speaker 1: black neighborhoods specifically. Another argument is that this practice was

199
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,480
Speaker 1: actually already in place, so these maps are a symptom

200
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,000
Speaker 1: and a documentation of something that was already happening, not

201
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,160
Speaker 1: the cause. A third argument is that none of this

202
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,800
Speaker 1: proves anything. It's impossible to tell whether lenders were really

203
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:02,959
Speaker 1: discriminating based on race or or whether their actual decisions

204
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,160
Speaker 1: were based on individual borrowers financial needs or not. One

205
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,600
Speaker 1: thing that's used to support that argument is that a

206
00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,080
Speaker 1: lot of the h o LC's own original refinancing efforts,

207
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,640
Speaker 1: which like we said, we're part of mortgage relief during

208
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,400
Speaker 1: the Great Depression and started years before these maps were

209
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 1: actually made, did happen in neighborhoods that were later coded

210
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:27,880
Speaker 1: to be in categories C or D, so yellow or red. However,

211
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,800
Speaker 1: these maps are also not the only evidence of racial

212
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,840
Speaker 1: discrimination in housing in the nineteen thirties and beyond. A

213
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,480
Speaker 1: Federal Housing Administration Underwriting Manual from nine five includes the

214
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,360
Speaker 1: instruction quote protection against adverse influences is obtained by the

215
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:49,720
Speaker 1: existence and enforcement of proper zoning regulations and appropriate deed restrictions.

216
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:55,839
Speaker 1: Important among adverse influences are the following infiltration of inharmonious

217
00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:00,520
Speaker 1: racial or nationality groups, the presence of smoke, odors, fog,

218
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,040
Speaker 1: et cetera. The National Association of Real Estate Broker's Code

219
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,839
Speaker 1: of Ethics, as amended in nineteen fifty two, reads quote

220
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,760
Speaker 1: Realtors should never be instrumental in introducing into a neighborhood

221
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,040
Speaker 1: a character of property or occupancy, members of any race

222
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,720
Speaker 1: or nationality, or any individual whose presence will clearly be

223
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,520
Speaker 1: detrimental to property values in the neighborhood. In other words,

224
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,560
Speaker 1: the instructions themselves made to map surveyors, underwriters, and real

225
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,000
Speaker 1: estate agents contained clear directions to discriminate against home buyers

226
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,120
Speaker 1: and neighborhoods based on race. So we talked to Part

227
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,080
Speaker 1: one about home buying being viewed as an investment. This

228
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,000
Speaker 1: can be hard to believe for people who lost lots

229
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,480
Speaker 1: of money or their homes in the most recent housing

230
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:50,400
Speaker 1: market crisis in the United States. I my home declined

231
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:55,200
Speaker 1: precipitously in value. Uh, that's my personal experience. But in

232
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, the median home price in the United

233
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,760
Speaker 1: States was about fifty thousand dollars. In it was more

234
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,760
Speaker 1: like a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. So these patterns

235
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,640
Speaker 1: of discrimination, which were either started by or documented by

236
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,600
Speaker 1: the h OLC neighborhood maps, excluded minorities, especially black people,

237
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,000
Speaker 1: from being able to participate in that long term investment.

238
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,000
Speaker 1: It also prevented predominantly black neighborhoods from making a transition

239
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:31,120
Speaker 1: from rental neighborhoods to owner occupied neighborhoods. As a general rule,

240
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,680
Speaker 1: owner occupied neighborhoods are better maintained and more stable than

241
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,000
Speaker 1: rental neighborhoods. The idea here is that people who own

242
00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,800
Speaker 1: their homes are more deeply invested in the home itself

243
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,800
Speaker 1: and the good of the surrounding neighborhood than people who rent.

244
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,480
Speaker 1: This is not any tirade against renters at all. We

245
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,640
Speaker 1: have Tracy and I have both been renters. We have

246
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,400
Speaker 1: been there. But that is a statistical fact that renters

247
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,800
Speaker 1: just don't tend to have the same investment in their home. Also,

248
00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 1: sometimes the people that buy houses to rent out do

249
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 1: not have the same investment in a neighborhood right there

250
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,560
Speaker 1: to collect rent. So again not knocking renters in the least.

251
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,160
Speaker 1: A two thousand fourteen study at Penn State put a

252
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,640
Speaker 1: dollar amount on the difference, uh, and that is that

253
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 1: owner occupied neighborhoods benefit their neighborhood to the tune of

254
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,240
Speaker 1: one thousand, three d twenty seven dollars per home per year.

255
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,560
Speaker 1: So that's to sub that up again, meant that these

256
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 1: neighborhoods that had been excluded from being eligible for mortgage

257
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,000
Speaker 1: lending meant that they were sort of trapped as being

258
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,480
Speaker 1: only rental neighborhoods without people who lived there being able

259
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 1: to make the transition into being homeowners and to put

260
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:44,120
Speaker 1: more investment into their own surrounding area. So the h

261
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,320
Speaker 1: o l C ceased operations and its assets were liquidated

262
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,280
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty one, and from the late nineteen forties

263
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,360
Speaker 1: through the late nineteen sixties, a number of court decisions

264
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,280
Speaker 1: and laws attempted to address the ongoing discrimination within the

265
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,920
Speaker 1: mortgage and homebuying process. Racely restrictive covenants were found to

266
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,680
Speaker 1: be unconstitutional. In the nineteen forty seven Supreme Court case

267
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,640
Speaker 1: Shelley versus Cramer, a black couple the Cramers had moved

268
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,119
Speaker 1: into the Shelleys neighborhood, which, per a restrictive covenant, was

269
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,360
Speaker 1: supposed to be all white. The Shelleys took the Cramers

270
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 1: to court, and in a unanimous decision, the Court found

271
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,680
Speaker 1: that state's enforcement of racially restrictive covenants violated the Fourteenth

272
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,520
Speaker 1: Amendment to the Constitution. The Fair Housing Act was passed

273
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,359
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty eight, making it illegal for property owners, landlords,

274
00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,600
Speaker 1: and real estate brokers to discriminate against people based on

275
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,000
Speaker 1: their race. The government also soon took steps to keep

276
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,520
Speaker 1: lenders from discriminating illegally. The Home Mortgage Disclosure Act, which

277
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,159
Speaker 1: was passed in nineteen seventy five, required lending institutions to

278
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,359
Speaker 1: report data about all of their mortgages, and in nineteen

279
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,800
Speaker 1: seventy seven, the Community Reinvestment Act encouraged banks to reinvest

280
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,040
Speaker 1: money in the neighborhoods where they did business. However, even

281
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,480
Speaker 1: though redlining is illegal now, lenders, insurance companies, and other

282
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 1: businesses have continued to engage in it. And that's in

283
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,920
Speaker 1: spite of a surgeon lending to minorities in the nineteen

284
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 1: nineties that seemed like it might close that gap. We're

285
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 1: going to spend a few minutes talking about some examples.

286
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,960
Speaker 1: A study of Detroit, Michigan, which is a majority black city,

287
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,920
Speaker 1: looked at two thousand census data and compared the proportion

288
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,160
Speaker 1: of black residents in the census tracts against mortgage lending

289
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,439
Speaker 1: in the same area. It found that quote, despite the

290
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,879
Speaker 1: identification of other significant factors such as educational attainment, the

291
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,760
Speaker 1: presence of independent effects associated with race demonstrated that in

292
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 1: the city of Detroit, redlining occurs in the contemporary period.

293
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 1: At two thousand eight, paper and the Journal of Economic

294
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,720
Speaker 1: Issues looked at loans in Mississippi and found denial rates

295
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,879
Speaker 1: for minorities to be exceptionally high in a way that

296
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,480
Speaker 1: wasn't explained by actual economic factors. And that study, black

297
00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:01,280
Speaker 1: and Hispanic borrowers actually did have generally weaker credit histories

298
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 1: than white or Asian borrowers, but the denial rates for

299
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,360
Speaker 1: black and Hispanic borrowers were really out of whack compared

300
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 1: to the actual number and extent of that difference. There

301
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,720
Speaker 1: have also been investigations of actual lenders and financial institutions.

302
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,760
Speaker 1: In eleven, the Department of Justice settled a case against

303
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,840
Speaker 1: Prime Lending, a wholly owned subsidiary of Plains Capital Bank,

304
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 1: for a nationwide pattern of discriminating against black borrowers. In

305
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,480
Speaker 1: May of the U s Department of Housing and Urban

306
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,520
Speaker 1: Urban Development announced a two hundred million dollars settlement in

307
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 1: red lighting claims against Associated Bank in a for unfair

308
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 1: lending practices that went on between two thousand and eight

309
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:50,520
Speaker 1: and quote. The settlement stems from a HUD secretary initiated

310
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:55,359
Speaker 1: complaint alleging that from two thousand eight, the Wisconsin based

311
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,720
Speaker 1: bank engaged in discriminatory lending practices regarding the denial of

312
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,360
Speaker 1: more gage loans to African American and Hispanic applicants and

313
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 1: the provision of loan services in neighborhoods with significant African

314
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 1: American or Hispanic populations. And of course, this pattern is

315
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 1: not confined to mortgage lending. Accusations of redlining have also

316
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,959
Speaker 1: been leveled at the insurance and student loan industries. In

317
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 1: terms of insurance specifically, some people argue that the increased

318
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 1: premiums charged in minority neighborhoods are appropriate because those neighborhoods

319
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,919
Speaker 1: are more expensive for the insurer, But studies of that

320
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 1: idea are actually conflicting in their results, and the term

321
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 1: is also used today to describe retailers whose prices are

322
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 1: higher in the lowest income neighborhoods. So if I set

323
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,199
Speaker 1: at the very top of this two partter that it

324
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 1: was inspired by a conversation where somebody demanded that we

325
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 1: explained to them something, and the explanation that was in

326
00:20:54,680 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 1: demand was why have Asian people succeeded more? It was

327
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 1: actually grosser than that. It was why is there no

328
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 1: racism against Asians if there's so much racism? And I

329
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 1: was like, well, because there is racism against Asians, it

330
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 1: just looks a lot different from racism racism against other

331
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 1: minorities because of all these social factors that have gone

332
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 1: on since the abolition of slavery a hundred and fifty

333
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 1: years ago. And one of the things that I mentioned

334
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,200
Speaker 1: was redlining, and the person I was talking to clearly

335
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 1: didn't believe that redlining was ever a thing, and thought

336
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,880
Speaker 1: I was talking about the more recent mortgage crisis, which

337
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: is a different thing. Like his argument was that the

338
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 1: whole mortgage crisis had been uh caused by giving loans

339
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 1: to people who couldn't afford them, which is only one

340
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,159
Speaker 1: piece of that story. A lot of the loans that

341
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: were given to people who couldn't afford them were in

342
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 1: and of themselves predatory loans, Like the loans structure itself

343
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 1: was wrong and was like setting people up for failure.

344
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 1: They were people were doing or banks are doing things

345
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 1: like giving people separate loans to cover just the interest,

346
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: which is a whole bad situation. Like, there was a

347
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: lot going on beside that. Um, this was not a

348
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 1: case where the person actually later said thank you for

349
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: explaining that to me. Uh. He actually went away after

350
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 1: I gave him uh like a link to the Wikipedia

351
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,920
Speaker 1: page about redlining, because Wikipedia seemed to be the only

352
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 1: source that he considered to be uh worthwhile it was

353
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 1: a Yankee conversation, but this whole I had heard of

354
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 1: redlining when I bought my house. Me too, right, because

355
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 1: I bought my house through a program for first time homebuyers,

356
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 1: and one of the things that they were specifically trying

357
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: to combat was the ongoing problems in the housing market

358
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: that came about because of redlining. And so that's where

359
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 1: I heard about it for the first time. And when

360
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 1: I started researching this, what I thought I was going

361
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,239
Speaker 1: to find was a lot of neighborhoods that had been

362
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: redlined so people wouldn't provide mortgage there. And it was like,

363
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: it happens to be that the poorest communities often were

364
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 1: predominantly African American and it was like a weird chicken

365
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: and egg thing. That is what I thought in my

366
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,919
Speaker 1: head I was going to find. I was completely forward

367
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: when I actually found instructions on survey forms that were

368
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: specifically like note if there's an infiltration of quote negroes

369
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 1: like I was not. I did not. It was worse

370
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 1: than I thought it was going to be. That's what

371
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: I'm trying to say. Yeah, the wording makes it sound

372
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: like you're sending like a spy out in wartime, like

373
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: you have to look for these horrible people. No, but yeah,

374
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: it makes my heart hurt. Frankly me too. So I

375
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: have some listener mail to take us out on a

376
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 1: much lighter note than this, uh, which we talked about

377
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 1: things like this because they're important and because their examples

378
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 1: of how history continues to affect people's lives today. So uh.

379
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: This this listener mail, though, was about something much more

380
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: light hearted. It's from Rebecca, Rebecca says, Oh, it's from Becca,

381
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: It says Becca at the bottom. So I'll call Rebecca.

382
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: Becca says, Dear Holly and Tracy. I really enjoyed the

383
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 1: good humor versus popsical episode in my ears perked up

384
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: at the mention of Frank Epperson in Oakland. I live

385
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: in Alameda, an island, Yes, an island next to Oakland.

386
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: I had heard the story of Frank Epperson, but had

387
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: no idea about the intricacies between good humor and popsicle.

388
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: Neptune Beach, where Everson sold some of the first popsicles,

389
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: was an amusement park in Alameda. Alamada was a getaway

390
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 1: for wealthy San Franciscans. They had vacation homes and visited

391
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: by traveling on the ferry. There was not a bay

392
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: bridge yet. Some of the homes built are still in

393
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: Alameda and referred to as the Gold Coast. Unfortunately, in

394
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: the seventies, a developer filled a huge portion of the

395
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: estuary and built apartments that blocked the Gold Coast views.

396
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: Neptune Beach is also gone, however, there are some remnants

397
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: of little vacation cottages, now turned into homes. Neptune Beach

398
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 1: operated from nineteen seventeen until nineteen thirty nine. The Strethlow

399
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 1: family owned and operated the beach and filled in a

400
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 1: section of bait at an Olympic sized swimming pool and

401
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: a roller coaster with views of the bay. They had

402
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: swimming races and a hand carved carousel and ferris wheel.

403
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: The park closed in ninety nine, mainly because of the

404
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: Great Depression. Also, the Bay Bridge was built and people

405
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: lost the allure of traveling on the ferry. The main

406
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,959
Speaker 1: access point to the beach was via the ferry and

407
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: also where one paid admission, but with cars, people were

408
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 1: able to access the beach without paying, also leading to

409
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: its demise. And then she sends a link of some

410
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: neat pictures of the park which we will put in

411
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 1: our show notes. Thank you again for your great podcast, Becca.

412
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: Thank you, Becca. We didn't talk about Neptune Beach much

413
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: at all except for impact things, so it is really

414
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: cool to hear that first person account of various things

415
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: from there from somebody who lives in the area. If

416
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: you would like to write to us about this or

417
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: any other podcast or at history podcast at how Stuffworks

418
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: dot com. We're also on Facebook at Facebook dot com

419
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 1: slash miss and History and on Twitter at miss in History.

420
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 1: Are tumbler as miss in history dot tumbler dot com,

421
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: and we're also on Pinterest at pinterest dot com slash

422
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: miss in history our Instagram. We are also on Instagram

423
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: at miss in history. UH. If you would like to

424
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: go to our parent company's website, you can put in

425
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: the word mortgage in the search bar and you will

426
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: find uh information on how mortgages where a lot of

427
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: which was inspired by these changes that were made in

428
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: the industry after the Great Depression. Can also come to

429
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: our website, where we're gonna have links to so many

430
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: of these maps so you can see them for yourself.

431
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 1: We also have show notes for all of our episodes.

432
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: We also have an art I have of all of

433
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: our episodes. I should say that the show notes are

434
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 1: the for the episodes of Holly and I have worked

435
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: on there. They don't really exist as much before, so

436
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: you can do all that at and a whole lot

437
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 1: more at how stuff works dot com, or missed the

438
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: history dot com for more on this and thousands of

439
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: other topics because it how stuff works dot com. M