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Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door open up.

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Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

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Speaker 2: choice I made as a free man.

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Speaker 1: A year later, I ended up writing the system.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

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Speaker 3: in the world is going to think as a monster

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Speaker 3: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,

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Speaker 3: and I'm just going to have to come to peace

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Speaker 3: with that.

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Speaker 1: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the

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Speaker 1: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

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Speaker 1: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

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Speaker 1: might have to play in my hanging. They had been

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Speaker 1: told that two prison officers would have to participate in

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Speaker 1: my execution. Now I walked back inside that prison for

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Speaker 1: the last time. Man, all help broke loose.

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Speaker 2: But welcome to another episode of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

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Speaker 2: Today we have a very incredible person as our guest.

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Speaker 2: Our featured exonery today is Frankie Correo.

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Speaker 3: Korea was sixteen. In nineteen ninety one, fifteen sheriff's deputies

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Speaker 3: with guns drawn storm through the front door. Korea was

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Speaker 3: convicted of murder and sentenced to two consecutive life terms.

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Speaker 1: Frankie was released.

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Speaker 3: From jail in downtown LA this afternoon after spending twenty

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Speaker 3: years in prison. Rio was released after the court found

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Speaker 3: evidence that Korea was framed through coerced testimony for a

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Speaker 3: fatal drive by shooting. The gang of corrupt LA Sheriff's

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Speaker 3: deputies known as the Linwood Vikings co wer six witnesses

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Speaker 3: into identifying him in a photo lineup.

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Speaker 1: Frankie, welcome, Jason's good to be here.

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Speaker 2: So Frankie, your story begins when you were really just

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Speaker 2: a child and the baby man. Let's go back to

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Speaker 2: the beginning. You grew up in La, right, that's correct,

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Speaker 2: Southern California, and you had a pretty happy upbringing, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I would say that. Yeah, everything was going along more

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Speaker 2: or less. Okay, nothing's easy about being a sixteen year

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Speaker 2: old boy, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Then one day it almost turned upside down. That day

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Speaker 1: was January twenty fourth, nineteen ninety one. I was just

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Speaker 1: a little color there. I was a high school student.

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Speaker 1: I was a child of a divorce family, four siblings.

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Speaker 1: My father had raised us in stage of nine, so

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Speaker 1: it's a very male dominated household. Dad and two boys.

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Speaker 1: It was what I'd known for the past seven years.

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Speaker 2: And you had a sort of a unique situation too.

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Speaker 2: It was is that your mom had did one day

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Speaker 2: just decided to check out.

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Speaker 1: That's it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't like it got separated and you spent half

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 1: With her or she just left. That was it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's an unfortunate story, but that's what happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you had been abandoned in a very real

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Speaker 2: way and experienced something that's obviously going to affect any

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Speaker 2: young man for the rest of his life. But that

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Speaker 2: wasn't the worst of what was to come by far.

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Speaker 2: And again, sixteen is really not a child, but you're

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Speaker 2: closer to a child than an adult.

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Speaker 1: Right even though it was my age, I was sixteen,

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Speaker 1: Psychologically you're you're still a kid, you know, maybe operating

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Speaker 1: at thirteen fourteen level, not to minimize it, but I'm

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Speaker 1: a boy, I'm a kid.

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Speaker 2: We were in tenth grade, tenth grader, tenth grade exactly,

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Speaker 2: So I'm saying tenth grade, you're you know, yeah, you're

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Speaker 2: closer to middle school than you are to college. And

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Speaker 2: they hadn't been shaved.

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Speaker 1: So it's like a good A good reference is that

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Speaker 1: you're at the point where like facial hair is sort

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Speaker 1: of developing, but you're not there yet, Frankie, like, hold

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Speaker 1: off right.

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Speaker 2: And then one night, fifteen cops bust in your house.

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Speaker 2: What a surreal situation. You were asleep?

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Speaker 1: I was asleep, just a normal night. Yeah. Actually it

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Speaker 1: was early morning, so it was dark, but it was

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Speaker 1: it was six in the morning. This happened, and my

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Speaker 1: father and I went home and they couldn't get in.

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Speaker 1: They were pounding away, and ultimately I opened the door,

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Speaker 1: looked out the window and new was them. They were

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Speaker 1: screaming who they were, and they stormed in, stormed in,

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Speaker 1: ordered my father and I to the floor, And that's

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the nightmare.

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Speaker 2: Really, so they already it to the floor. Did they

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Speaker 2: tell you what was going on?

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Speaker 1: I wish it did? You know? It was pretty strategic

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Speaker 1: in all business, so they wanted to, like ram sack.

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Speaker 1: The home was their main objective. And you know, my

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Speaker 1: father and I really my dad was trying to exert

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Speaker 1: his position. This is my home, what are you doing here?

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Speaker 1: And he was being ignored. So he's telling me, like,

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Speaker 1: what's happening. I'm like I don't know, Like I have

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Speaker 1: no idea whither're here? Soon after, on the ride to

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Speaker 1: the sheriff station is when I learned that I had

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Speaker 1: been accused and ultimately now being arrested for a murderer

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Speaker 1: I hadn't committed.

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Speaker 2: So you get to the sheriff's station and what happens next.

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Speaker 1: Really, I was expecting my father to show up, but

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Speaker 1: what happened was I was placing into an interrogation room.

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Speaker 1: The people who showed up instead were these two sort

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Speaker 1: of cowboy detectives ready to play the good call bad

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Speaker 1: cop on me, and I played along. You know. They

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Speaker 1: said what they're arrested me for and if I would

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Speaker 1: willing to talk, and I said, sure, I'll talk like

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Speaker 1: I have nothing to hide.

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Speaker 2: Right, And so you waved your Marana, right I did.

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Speaker 2: And that's such a crazy thing, Frankie, because I think

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Speaker 2: it's hard for most people to understand why someone would

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Speaker 2: wave their miranda rights when you have the right to

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Speaker 2: a lawyer who is going to give that up. But

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Speaker 2: the fact is in your case, I think it's fairly typical,

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Speaker 2: which is that if you're innocent, and this is an

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Speaker 2: ironic thing, right, if you're innocent, a lot of people

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Speaker 2: go in they think, well, why do I need a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to answer some questions, and the justice

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Speaker 2: system is going to work because I'm an innocent person

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Speaker 2: who abides by the law, and then they'll see that

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Speaker 2: they made a mistake and then they'll go catch the

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Speaker 2: real guy.

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Speaker 1: Exactly right.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, it's going to take stories like yours to help

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Speaker 2: educate people so that they don't do that. You do

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Speaker 2: not give up any information without getting a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: But I will adjason that when you're in that code

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Speaker 1: room and the power imbalance is obvious, you are in

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Speaker 1: a detention facility. Basically, you're in the stronghold, you're in

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Speaker 1: the sheriff's departments space, and you're there as a visitor.

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Speaker 1: You're there obviously being charged with this crime, in my case,

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Speaker 1: being wrongfully charged. And so to some degree, as a

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Speaker 1: young boy, you want these are adults. I'm looking at

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Speaker 1: these men and you want to cooperate. You want it

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Speaker 1: like I'll talk to you. I have nothing to hide.

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Speaker 1: It is sort of my position looking back now. Obviously

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Speaker 1: I wish I wish there was a Civics class that

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Speaker 1: would have said, you know what, no matter what, innocent, guilty, whatever,

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Speaker 1: the situation is just wait for your parents or wait

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Speaker 1: for a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a tragic twist or irony that when you're

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Speaker 2: innocent and you go into the situation, you're more likely

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Speaker 2: to waive your Miranda rights and if you're guilty, exactly,

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Speaker 2: we're in that interrogation room.

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Speaker 1: How long were you interrogated for?

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Speaker 2: Do you even know?

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Speaker 1: You know? Surprisingly, I think back of that fived him

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Speaker 1: in interrogation, and I sort of left that room thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know, where was the lamp? You know, where were

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Speaker 1: these guys punching on me? Like, you know, you watch

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Speaker 1: enough TV to understand that this is supposed to unfold

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Speaker 1: a little bit differently than it did in my case.

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Speaker 1: At least, they were very quick to just say, there's

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Speaker 1: a young boy who witnessed a crime, who was adamant

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Speaker 1: that you were the guy who did it. So we

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Speaker 1: got you. Let's talk about you just confessing to it.

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Speaker 1: So it was really very brief, very precise on their end,

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Speaker 1: and I think I'm on a chuckle not to be

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Speaker 1: silly here, but it was just like so unreal, like

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Speaker 1: one you're are you sure you're talking to me? I'm

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Speaker 1: adamant that it was in me obviously, and their position

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Speaker 1: was like, we're beyond if you did it or not.

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Speaker 1: We just want you to just come clean, just confess

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Speaker 1: that you did it. And I was like, I can't

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Speaker 1: do that.

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Speaker 2: It ended after ten minutes.

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Speaker 1: That's it. Like they weren't trying to press me and

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Speaker 1: starve me out anything. They were just like, okay, well

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Speaker 1: we'll see you in court, like we're going to jail now,

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Speaker 1: Like that was it.

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Speaker 2: Hearing that and that's an unusual interrogation, and that it

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Speaker 2: went on for such a short period of time, it

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Speaker 2: sounds to me like at that point they actually did

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Speaker 2: think they had the right guy, because they were like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: well this guy's not gonna give it up, but we

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Speaker 2: got the right guy, so it's okay, We're we're gonna

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Speaker 2: get him no matter what. But as things unraveled, they

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Speaker 2: took steps that were corrupt and illegal. How did they

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Speaker 2: end up managing to convict you when you were so

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Speaker 2: obviously not the guy?

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Speaker 1: So you know, in Los Angeles at least, there's a

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Speaker 1: very familiar story about misconduct with the LAPD SO Rampart

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Speaker 1: Division scandal. It's more readily available knowledge. But my case

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Speaker 1: didn't involve laped involve the li Sheriff's Department, and there's

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Speaker 1: a well known at least locally of the Linwood Vikings.

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Speaker 1: So Lindwood is where this crime happened and where my

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Speaker 1: arrest was ultimately investigated. And the Linwood Vikings had become

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Speaker 1: a rogue police gang. So what I thought is a

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Speaker 1: naive boy, that I was dealing with law enforcement who

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Speaker 1: were abidened by the constitution and their policies in the department.

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Speaker 1: Some of the people on this investigation team were these

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Speaker 1: bad cops sort of fast forward in here of information

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Speaker 1: I knew, not at the time, but as the case developed.

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Speaker 1: And so when this young boy who was used to

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Speaker 1: identify me, who was shown a line of photo six

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Speaker 1: pack to ultimately say this is the guy who committed

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Speaker 1: the crime, the case sounded pretty cut and dry. There's

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Speaker 1: a witness, there's a heshoe was showing a photographic lineup.

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Speaker 1: He quickly identified the shooter. We got in the rest

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Speaker 1: slammed duck. And so there was a trial when I

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Speaker 1: was tried as an adult and move forward to a conviction.

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Speaker 1: But at some point it was discovered that this young

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Speaker 1: boy wasn't as innocent as you know. He was more

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Speaker 1: than just a witness. It was revealed that he was

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Speaker 1: an informant for one specific law enforcement officer, Deputy Ditch.

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Speaker 1: And so Deputy Ditch, Ditch, Deputy of all things, Deputy Ditch. Right,

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Speaker 1: I mean what a name, right, Craig Ditch is the

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Speaker 1: guy's name. He's now retired. The guy had this boy

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Speaker 1: under his wing as an informant, and he happened to

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Speaker 1: be at this crime scene, and so it was very

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Speaker 1: very easy to say, I'm your go to guy here.

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Speaker 1: So the story later was discovered that this young boy

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Speaker 1: was showing photographs after he'd been interviewed five times by

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Speaker 1: other investigators with no results. They realized Ditch had a

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Speaker 1: relationship with this boy. Ditch shows up cases over. The

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Speaker 1: case was solved once Stitch arrived in less than eight hours,

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Speaker 1: and the story that was revealed that the young boy

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Speaker 1: was showing the photographs as what was in the report,

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Speaker 1: and so he picks a random picture just to play along,

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Speaker 1: and Ditch says, that's the wrong guy. He's in jail

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Speaker 1: right now, try again. You know, I'm sure he's feeling

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Speaker 1: like an idiot. Point. You know, you're trying to help,

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Speaker 1: You're young, you're scared, so he picks another photograph, and

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Speaker 1: the deputy says, this guy's dead. What about this guy here?

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Speaker 1: We think he's trying to come up in the rankings

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Speaker 1: or whatever, And so the boy just says, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: guess that makes sense. I guess I guess that's the guy.

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Speaker 1: And this is the story.

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Speaker 2: He was looking at six photographs.

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Speaker 1: Yep, he was over too exactly.

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Speaker 2: He picked he picked very badly. He picked a guy

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Speaker 2: who was in jail and a guy who was dead.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: That's yeah, really hard to make a case against those guys.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, it's sort of odd that there

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Speaker 2: was a guy in the sixth pack who was dead.

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Speaker 2: Give me a break, right, Well, I mean you would

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Speaker 2: think they would take that guy out. Just I mean,

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Speaker 2: let me jump in here and say, well, you know, Frankie,

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Speaker 2: what's up. You're coming off as this high school student,

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Speaker 2: nice guy. What's your photograph doing in the sheriff's apartment? Like,

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Speaker 2: tell us about that.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that was your next question, right, I'm getting

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Speaker 1: to that what happened in this environment is so nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety nineteen ninety one is over referencing here that specific

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Speaker 1: sheriff's department's policy was that if there was any anyone

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Speaker 1: that you thought was a potential bad kid or bad

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Speaker 1: guy or bad anything, let's do some racial profiling at

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Speaker 1: this point, right, gather intel. And so the photograph was

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Speaker 1: obtained in the summer between my sixth grade and seventh

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Speaker 1: grade vacation block. There, me and some of my buddies

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Speaker 1: just riding our BMX spikes through a local park, no

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Speaker 1: big deal, summertime, and this deputy Dept. Luna, I remember

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Speaker 1: the guy's name, sort of just rolls up next to us.

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Speaker 1: He's it's done, the official lights on pull over. He stops,

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Speaker 1: We stop, start talking about who has a girlfriend, and

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Speaker 1: where do you live? And what's up with to you? Whatever? Right,

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Speaker 1: just pretty cool talking to a cop, No big deal.

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Speaker 1: Then the guy says, do you mind if I take

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Speaker 1: your photograph to the group? I don't remember us looking

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Speaker 1: around saying what do you think? Guys? We just like,

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Speaker 1: I guess like you're a cop, right, Like what do

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Speaker 1: we say?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: And so this is the time when you had polaroad camera.

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Speaker 1: So the guy got out of his car, went into

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Speaker 1: the trunk and pulled out the little manual polaroid camera,

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Speaker 1: and one by one he just came to write where

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Speaker 1: we were on our bike standing and just snapped a photograph.

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Speaker 1: And so that photograph that was taken in a park

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Speaker 1: with trees in the background and whatever else was in

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Speaker 1: the background, I was smiling them picture. That photograph ended

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Speaker 1: up in the sixth pack. So talk about like a

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Speaker 1: chain of events here that fucks your life up, right,

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Speaker 1: Oh my.

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Speaker 2: God, I mean, that's really the most I've heard all

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Speaker 2: types of different stories, and you're right, that is a

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Speaker 2: question that people often ask, why was this picture? Now?

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Speaker 2: What we know is that if you live in a

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Speaker 2: poor neighborhood speticularly a poor minority neighborhood, the cops do

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Speaker 2: sweeps and they'll pick up everybody, right, and so your

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Speaker 2: picture could be in there because you had a joint,

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Speaker 2: or any other thing could be in there because you

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Speaker 2: were trespassing, right, I have air quotes under that one

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Speaker 2: or whatever. And so it's really true that a lot

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Speaker 2: of people have records for the most minor misdemeanors. In

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Speaker 2: your case, you had no record whatsoever. Actually, it was

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Speaker 2: probably I mean, thinking back to when I was in

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Speaker 2: sixth or seventh grade, if a cop would have asked

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Speaker 2: to take my picture, I would have felt good, right, like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: this guy wants to take my picture. I'm pretty cool kid.

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Speaker 2: So your picture was in the lineup because this cop had,

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Speaker 2: in a sneaky way, racially profiled you as a thirteen

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Speaker 2: year old boy riding his bike in the park, which

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Speaker 2: is exactly as far as I can tell, what thirteen

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Speaker 2: year old boys are supposed to be doing. You were

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Speaker 2: identified in this insane process, right, which is literally like

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Speaker 2: it would be funny, except the results are so tragic.

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Speaker 2: So he eventually managed to come up with the answer

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Speaker 2: that the cop wanted, which he could have saved himself

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Speaker 2: to trouble by just saying initially to the kid, hey,

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Speaker 2: this is the guy we want identify him. That would

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Speaker 2: have been simple, exactly. I would have saved five minutes.

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Speaker 2: So you're identified, you go to trial.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm pre as an adult, I'm going to keep

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Speaker 1: parking this, but I'm a kid. So there's a process

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Speaker 1: here in California that determines if you're worthy of juvenile

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Speaker 1: court or you have to go with the big boys. Right,

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Speaker 1: And so this was a murderer and they felt that

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Speaker 1: it deserved it a higher punishment, and so ultimately went

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Speaker 1: to trial. Had an assigned attorney that the county who

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Speaker 1: wasn't a public defenders like a panel attorney. I have

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Speaker 1: to say this part here is when I walked into

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Speaker 1: the court and I was chained to you know, the

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Speaker 1: chain gang there everyone's ever being arraigned, all adults, and

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Speaker 1: then was looking like what did you do, like steal

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Speaker 1: some candy and blah blah blah, and you know, they're

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Speaker 1: just ragging on me, these adults who had obviously been

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Speaker 1: there before. And so I'm the last guy to be arraigned,

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Speaker 1: and so everyone's freaking out like, oh shit, we weren't

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Speaker 1: expecting that charge for this kid, right And prior to that,

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Speaker 1: I will say that, and it's and it kind of

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Speaker 1: goes to just me being so naive here is that

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Speaker 1: I heard someone call my name and I'm like, I'm

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Speaker 1: so little. I'm like raising my hand like I'm over here.

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Speaker 1: And I looked over and I saw this good looking

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Speaker 1: white man with this amazing suit on, just like tanned suit,

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Speaker 1: walking towards me with the file and I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, David, you have signed me the best

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Speaker 1: fucker in the room, man, Like this is all going

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Speaker 1: to be worked out, Like this is it? I got

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Speaker 1: the very sheck of the world. Sadly, it's just an

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Speaker 1: example of like where my mentality was, even my perception

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Speaker 1: of this new world. This courtroom was like sadly, like

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Speaker 1: a white guy come into your rescue, had like such

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Speaker 1: an impact from living in a society where the majority

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Speaker 1: of people around you are people who look like you

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Speaker 1: and who you know than the teacher or whatever, and

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Speaker 1: so I thought it was a sort of funny and

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Speaker 1: looking back at that moment, getting me so excited about

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Speaker 1: everything's going to be okay now right obviously.

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Speaker 2: Not obviously not. I mean the odds, the odds were

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Speaker 2: stacked against you. The government was willing to lie to

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Speaker 2: get the conviction. They were willing to use an incentivized witness,

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Speaker 2: and they convicted you, they did, and now you get

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Speaker 2: sent to maximum security prison.

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Speaker 1: At the time, they had a juvenile facility, so it

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Speaker 1: was like the Youth Authority for young adults. So I

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Speaker 1: went there and the sentence was thirty years to life,

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Speaker 1: with an additional six life sentences attached to that. So

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Speaker 1: I'll say that when I heard those words coming to

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Speaker 1: the judge's mouth, I couldn't imagine or perceive like a

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Speaker 1: week or a few months in my life. So now

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Speaker 1: to imagine thirty years to life plus life, I couldn't

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Speaker 1: even comprehend that. For someone wants to be sort of

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Speaker 1: funny and sort of mess with me, it meant like,

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Speaker 1: do thirty years to life die and then you're back

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Speaker 1: in prison, like even if you ever come back, right,

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Speaker 1: And it.

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Speaker 2: Was like, you mean, like if you get reincarnated.

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Speaker 1: I suppose, right, like you're you're setting you up for

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Speaker 1: your next life. It doesn't make any sense, right, and

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Speaker 1: none of this makes any sense. But that in particular

360
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Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense just in terms of the semantics

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Speaker 1: of it. It's interesting too, write because there was a

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Speaker 1: witness who actually wanted to come forward and who had

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Speaker 1: information that could have prevented you from being convicted in

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Speaker 1: the first place. There was, so he wasn't just a witness.

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Speaker 1: This guy that you're referring to was the actual killer.

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Speaker 1: So as a bizarre twist in this case, the investigator

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Speaker 1: had discovered who the murderer was, and your instigator there is.

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Speaker 1: It's a bizarre twist all this, And it's not to

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Speaker 1: minimize the bad police work here, but now it's also

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Speaker 1: bad defense work here. My defense attorney had an investigator

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Speaker 1: who had went out and become the world's best investigator

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Speaker 1: by tracking down who excumented the crime. Turns out he

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Speaker 1: knew the murderer, and so there was just this conflict

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Speaker 1: of interest of either get off the case or reveal

375
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Speaker 1: that this is the guy who did it. He had

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Speaker 1: this young man, the actual murderer, confessed to the crime.

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Speaker 1: There's a six page confession that he took from this man.

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Speaker 1: And what he tried to do. To his credit, he

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Speaker 1: tried to convince this guy to come to the court

380
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Speaker 1: and just say, look, frank didn't do it, it was me.

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Speaker 1: And he arrived with an attorney. You would assume that

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Speaker 1: the judge would say, well, wait a minute here, before

383
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Speaker 1: Frankie goes down and he's sentenced, let's hear about this

384
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Speaker 1: guy in the hallway. And lo and behold, the judge says,

385
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Speaker 1: you're too late. You've been convicted by jury. All this

386
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Speaker 1: sort of like blast information that's apparently in the hallway.

387
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Speaker 1: Just deal with it in your appeal.

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Speaker 2: So after the jury renders you guilty and the guy

389
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Speaker 2: standing outside the doors of the courtroom exactly who's actually

390
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Speaker 2: holding the cards to your freedom?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean it would have shed light. If someone

392
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Speaker 1: cared about truth, right, it would have been like, well,

393
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Speaker 1: let's bring this guy in. And so it failed me

394
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Speaker 1: even again at that point, that's such a crazy it's

395
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Speaker 1: a bizarre man.

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Speaker 2: You were like thirty feet from freedom sort of right,

397
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Speaker 2: the doors would have opened and this guy would have

398
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Speaker 2: been allowed to walk in and provided he actually came clean, true,

399
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Speaker 2: because he might have changed his mind. People do that.

400
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 2: But you had a real opportunity to avoid this most

401
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 2: nightmarish fate that anybody can possibly imagine. But that's not

402
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Speaker 2: what happened. And ultimately there were six witnesses who testified

403
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,040
Speaker 2: against you, and the crazy thing is they all recanted, right,

404
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 2: eventually they all recanted.

405
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,160
Speaker 1: They initially use this one boy, this fifty year old boy,

406
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Speaker 1: to arrest me based on this photographic lineup, and so

407
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 1: six months, which is bizarre. Here everyone was under eighteen,

408
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,600
Speaker 1: so everyone was very young. Six months maybe even seven

409
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,440
Speaker 1: months after the crime had occurred. For the first time,

410
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Speaker 1: the other five boys had been shown the photographic lineup.

411
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,200
Speaker 1: And we all know about memory, and there's been studies

412
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Speaker 1: and it's been proven that this is not a recording

413
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,639
Speaker 1: dick you have on your phone in your mind memories

414
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,639
Speaker 1: recorded a little bit differently. It's like little snapshots, and

415
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,600
Speaker 1: as time goes on they fade and other information filters

416
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,679
Speaker 1: in and it gets very tainted. So it's hard to

417
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Speaker 1: really recall, especially a dry by shooting the middle of

418
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Speaker 1: the night. You hear gunfire, you're ducking, you're running, so

419
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,119
Speaker 1: to really capture that, it's like an immediate on the

420
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Speaker 1: scene interview is like the best one. So we're talking

421
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Speaker 1: about seven months later now where these boys are showing

422
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Speaker 1: photographs for the first time ever. Wow, And sure enough,

423
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,840
Speaker 1: sure enough, one by one they say, yep, that's the guy.

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00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,880
Speaker 1: It's photograph number one. And it was obviously later determined

425
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Speaker 1: that's this young boy. The fifteen year old boy. Made

426
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Speaker 1: it a point to tell everyone else if they ever

427
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Speaker 1: show you photographs, believe me, I know who did it.

428
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Speaker 1: It was photograph number one. And so now we got

429
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Speaker 1: six people.

430
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,439
Speaker 2: Right, And it's so absurd to think that seven months later,

431
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,159
Speaker 2: as you said, in the middle of the night, in

432
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Speaker 2: the dark and a drive by shooting, all the factors

433
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,240
Speaker 2: are there for almost a guarantee of wrong fele identification,

434
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,800
Speaker 2: a miss identification, and that's exactly what happened. So you

435
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,560
Speaker 2: spent much more than half your life behind bars. You're

436
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 2: only really a cognizant human, right maybe for ten years

437
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 2: to a round number, so more than twice that amount

438
00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 2: of time. You're now in a cage in a violent, scary,

439
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,160
Speaker 2: hostile environment. How did you manage to make it through that?

440
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 1: You know? Well, you know, when I think back about

441
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 1: how I survived twenty years incarceration, what I remembered most

442
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,959
Speaker 1: about something my dad said sort of in passing or

443
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,119
Speaker 1: just started giving me some advice up to dinner table,

444
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,200
Speaker 1: which was, if there's adults around, go to them. He's

445
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,199
Speaker 1: sort of instilling these things about just society, they'll help you.

446
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 1: And so I think, here, I am in a room

447
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,920
Speaker 1: full of adults. I'm an adult court, and I'm expecting

448
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,359
Speaker 1: everyone to do the right thing just because you're an adult.

449
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 1: I'm a kid. You're supposed to be watching out for

450
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 1: the system and yourself and and everyone in the room.

451
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 1: And so that that went haywire. That that failed me.

452
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 1: But I think that this very fuzzy idea of humanity

453
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 1: was being born, and so I arrived in the place

454
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,199
Speaker 1: that was very sad. I mean, it's dangerous when you

455
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 1: hear about it from the outside from the inside. It's

456
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 1: a very somber and just a sad place where people

457
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 1: are being confined. And so I'm talking to you from

458
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 1: the ground level here other people who don't want to

459
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 1: be there, and they're also suffering on whatever level, and

460
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 1: you join in on this pity party about life, you know.

461
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 1: And so first couple of years of that, you know,

462
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,439
Speaker 1: you're trying to sort of find your place. It's a

463
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 1: social dynamic there, and so you're moving in groups of

464
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: your kind, and you know, you get a job and

465
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 1: you kind of get active in what's happening there. But

466
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,919
Speaker 1: luckily for me, and I really thank my dad for

467
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 1: saying that, it's instilling in this idea that whoever they are,

468
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 1: but people are good people. And in my case, I

469
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,479
Speaker 1: had to be careful with who I told that I

470
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,880
Speaker 1: was innocent, because you know, that's back to the sort

471
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 1: of ranking about like you're a murderer in prison has

472
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 1: more status than if you're there for child molestation. And

473
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 1: so even in my environment, I think innocent is probably

474
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 1: below child molester. You don't even belong here, Like what

475
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 1: the fuck man, Like you're you know, I mean, a criminal,

476
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,919
Speaker 1: Like we're all you know, we're all tough here. So

477
00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: I learned that I made a mistake and told the

478
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 1: wrong guy that I was innocent, and the look he

479
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: gave me was like, oh shit, maybe I shouldn't be

480
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 1: telling people that I'm not like you, right obviously, like

481
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 1: everyone else I read and I and I feel like

482
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,159
Speaker 1: I'm in sound like a natural chameleon. So I just

483
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 1: adapted to my environment. I've been always been very diplomatic,

484
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 1: so I was always trying to be the peacekeeper, and

485
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 1: so that helped the pain. And also, like the hope

486
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: was that like somewhere, somehow someone was going to realize

487
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 1: that this was a huge mistake. And so the system

488
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: that failed me, the criminal justice system that failed me,

489
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: and everyone who makes that sort of term, you know,

490
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 1: happen and work though it's it's supposed to work. I

491
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 1: suppose I was expecting them to figure it out and

492
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 1: help me. It's sort of like suspending reality and thinking,

493
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: forget what just happened to you where you've been wrongly convicted,

494
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: and try to hold onto the one piece that these

495
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: people can do the right thing. And some expecting people

496
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: to do the right thing.

497
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 2: It's incredible that you would be expecting people to do

498
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 2: the right thing, when, with the exception of your father,

499
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: everybody who was supposed to have protected you either abandoned

500
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 2: you or turned on you in the most vicious way,

501
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 2: and yet you maintained this outlook like, if I just

502
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,959
Speaker 2: be me and be honest and be optimistic, then eventually

503
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: people are going to accept me for who I am,

504
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 2: which is an innocent guy trapped in a sentence that

505
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 2: doesn't belong to me. That's really there's a lot to

506
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: be learned from that, right, because all of us go

507
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: through little disappointments on a daily basements, right, or a

508
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 2: weekly basis or whatever, and so many people react to those,

509
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 2: and certainly being around you and the other exgneries, I

510
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 2: always say, it puts gratitude in my attitude, you know,

511
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 2: and I learned to be I think much more understanding

512
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 2: of life's little twists and turns, because they all seem

513
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 2: so trivial. When you deal with someone who's been through

514
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: hell right and managed to maintain not just sanity, but

515
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 2: a sense of grace and kindness and optimism, it's remarkable,

516
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: you know.

517
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: I'm going to add to also, Jason, that there was

518
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 1: something happening that I didn't realize. This until many years later.

519
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: But we're all conditioned in the way, and specifically, when

520
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: we think of prison, we think of the ugliest human

521
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 1: from his behavior, what he did, or the way he

522
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: looks and the tattoos and ponytail whatever we have in

523
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: our minds etched out as like what a prisoner looks like.

524
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: And so imagine a guy who's great looking as I

525
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 1: am in a prison. You might think, oh, man, this

526
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 1: guy's vulnerable to like sexual assaults, right, But the reality

527
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: is that pull perversion out of it. You're in a

528
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 1: place where you're almost like a porcelain figurine in a bar,

529
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: and it's almost like people want to protect you, and

530
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: they're curious about, like, what's this guy with no tattoos

531
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: doing amongst us? Why is he so nice? Like, you know,

532
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: we're all mean and talking shit to each other, and

533
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: this guy's like talking about good morning and whatever. Right.

534
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: And so I learned that my humanity hadn't been detached

535
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: from me. There was no guilt that made me feel

536
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: like I couldn't be human. So I was just who

537
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: I thought I had to be. And as time went on,

538
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 1: I'd use it as a shield because I knew that

539
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: was happening, that there was like these social conditioning that

540
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: was working in my favor, even just a survival part,

541
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: let alone the criminal justice be trying to get out.

542
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 2: Now that you've been out for six years, and hearing

543
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: you talk about it, you're very calm, and you paint

544
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 2: a picture that is I think either you're in a

545
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: little bit of denial. You know, like they say, denial

546
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: is not a river in Egypt about how terrifying and

547
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: how I know it was a brutal experience no matter

548
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: all the things you're saying, notwithstanding, but I do want

549
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 2: to turn to the happy part of this story, your

550
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: exoneration and then what happened after you got out, because

551
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 2: America loves to come back. Yeah, man, and your story

552
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: is very uplifting. I mean, just the fact that you're

553
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 2: here now has got to be inspiring to so many people.

554
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 2: So how did you Was it the Northern California Innocent's

555
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: Project that took your case?

556
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: I think my exoneration is sort of twofold here, But

557
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 1: when it came to the legal components to it, I

558
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: did what many other people do. They write letters, and

559
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: they bother their families and that they have a friend

560
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: who they can nag about it. They do that like

561
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 1: it's a constant scratching away at this right. And so

562
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 1: for me, it was a fifteen year letter writing campaign

563
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 1: that went nowhere. I mean it was Oprah and twenty

564
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: twenty and forty eight hours and some row back, you know,

565
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: along with Barry shk who wasn't interested in at the

566
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: time with a case who wasn't involved in DNA, which

567
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: I understood. But as bizarre as it was, I was.

568
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: I was a folesome prisoner working as a teacher's aid.

569
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: I was, you know, helping the teacher correct papers and

570
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: do some algebra on the board, whatever, just pretty basic stuff, right.

571
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: And Tony Carter, who was a teacher, she is about

572
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: to retire, and there was like this internal policy where

573
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: you can't get too close to the prisoners because they'll

574
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: fire you and so on. And so I knew that,

575
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 1: and now I want to get her in trouble. So

576
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: she knew my plight, but I never never went as

577
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: far as to say, hey, Tony, would he help? But

578
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: now I figure she's done. You know, she's about to retire.

579
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: Now is the time, right, So on the last moments

580
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: she's walking away on that Friday, I say, Tony, Tony,

581
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 1: and she looks back and she says, yeah, what's up?

582
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: Did you forget to say something? And sure enough I did? Right?

583
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: I said, would you help me? She's like, sure, Like,

584
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: what can I do for you? Right? You know my story,

585
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: if Nelliecher retired, if you're in your travels in the world,

586
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: if you come across a lawyer, a reporter, anyone you

587
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: think might be interested in my story, would you just

588
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: mind just sharing that with them? And I think anyone

589
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: would have said yes, it's pretty simple. Right, you're about

590
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: to leave, And so she says, sure, I can do that,

591
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: and I was really relieved because a letter I can

592
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: do that all day long, but face to face it's

593
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: a different dynamic there. But I felt really happy that

594
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: I was able to muster the guts to do that.

595
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: And so turns out that six months after that conversation,

596
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: she was invited to a book club in Sacramento. This

597
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: guy named Bo mo'sof who's now has passed, was going

598
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: to do some book signing and she had seen him before,

599
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: and so she shows up and lo and behold, there's

600
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: an attorney in the room. And luckily for me, she

601
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: mentioned that she was a lawyer, because guess who was

602
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: listening Tony who says, oh shit, I guess this is

603
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: I guess this is a calling, right, So she goes

604
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: over and says, I heard you're a lawyer, and you

605
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: know have this guy you know, I used to be

606
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: a former teacher in prison and there's a story I

607
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: want to share with you. And literally that's what's triggered it.

608
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: This woman was Ellen Eggers, was a public defender working

609
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,959
Speaker 1: on death penalty cases in California, who then got in

610
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: touch with Northern California Innocence Project Morrison Forrester, and this

611
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: dream came together. It took them five years, and they

612
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 1: could have taken them ten years. I didn't care. But

613
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 1: finally someone was going beyond the record and saying, let's

614
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: listen to this guy has to say. So they turned

615
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: stones over that had been ignored. They tracked down these

616
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: six boys, these now men, you know, they weren't kids anymore,

617
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 1: and one by one it was almost like if they

618
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: were being freed from their own miseries. They all, from

619
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: what I hear, they were all so gracious to say, like,

620
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: you know what, thank you for finding me. I need

621
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: to tell you the truth, as if they were living

622
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: with this pain as well. There was witnesses that were

623
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: brought in to clarify. All things were described that happened

624
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: couldn't have happen, and so the evidence that was used

625
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: against me had gone away and there was a final hearing.

626
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: Luckily for me, the Los Angeles disc Attorney's office conceded

627
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: the case, so there was ultimately no fight. They agreed

628
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: that this had gone wrong and I was free to go.

629
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: And so the words I've been yearning to hear all

630
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: my life, well it seemed to be my entire life,

631
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: the judge said them, which is basically, get out of here.

632
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: They apologize. The DA's apologized in the room, which felt

633
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: really good. They came over and shook my hand. I

634
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: think the judge he gave more of like a philosophical

635
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: response to that, but it was less about him. It

636
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: was more about the DA's office. And it turned out

637
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: that the corporate the bad players here were just as

638
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: bad cop. I'm a big fan of law enforcement, but

639
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: in this situation, it was a bad cop who was

640
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: tied up with this internal gang situation and shit went

641
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: bad and I had to suffer.

642
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: Yes, you certainly did so you walked out of the courthouse.

643
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: You walked in while you were arrested, and you can't

644
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: walk in. You were taken in as a sixteen year

645
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: old boy. You walk out as a thirty seven year

646
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: old man. What's that like? You walk out? I mean,

647
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: what is freedom taste? And your dad had died in

648
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: the drum, right, so now you're an orphan yep, and

649
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: you walk out into what would you do? Did you

650
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 2: go get something to eat?

651
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 3: Like?

652
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: What did you DoD?

653
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 2: I mean?

654
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: I wish I would have been released from the court room.

655
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: I was released from the Sheriff's Department's jail there the

656
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: county jail, I like county jail. And it was about

657
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: it was mid midweek, it was about maybe two in

658
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: the afternoon, and they called me out on my cell

659
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: and took me down to the street level when doors open,

660
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: and there was like a TMZ moment, really, all these

661
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: cameras bouncing on their shoulders trying to interview me, right,

662
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: and all the mics come out before my family lawyers

663
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: could get to me. And how does it feel to

664
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: be free? How does it feel to be free? Right?

665
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: And the big question? And I think I ignored that

666
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: one because I sort of thought about that for a

667
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: very long time when I was in prison, what's it

668
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: going to feel like? And it sort of felt stupid,

669
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: as safe, it felt as great or whatever. So but

670
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: I remember thinking that it was such a bright day,

671
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: the colors that just at my disposal now it seemed

672
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: to be like a century overload, which is my immediate

673
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: reaction was whoa the wind, the colors, the people, the attention,

674
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: because you know, Jason, the reality was that at a

675
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: very young age I had become like the man in

676
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: the iron mask, where my voice was taken away. My

677
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: existence before I had a chance to even blossom, was extinguished.

678
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: There was no chance for this young life to become anything,

679
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: and so I had to live with that. I lived

680
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: with the fact that when I did try to make

681
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: an attempt to speak up for myself, I was ignored

682
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: and that was minimized. So that was a personal struggle

683
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: that all kind of came together the day I was out,

684
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: So from no attention to like, hey, we're all here

685
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: for you, right, which was great. My attorneys were there,

686
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: my family was there somewhow I hadn't seen them very

687
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: long time.

688
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: And so what happened, So then you're out. Yeah, where'd

689
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: you go?

690
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: And I was ushered into a car pretty quickly and

691
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: we went to Echo Park to a friend's home who

692
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: they had a good whole food sort of spread awaiting

693
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: for me. Right, so I went for a cafeteria food

694
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: for twenty years or prison food, which is even worse

695
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: to this long table of organic almonds and dried apricots.

696
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: You know.

697
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: So that was pretty cool.

698
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: Almonds and apricots. Find like, ahoya, man, thatunds a little biblical,

699
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of funny, that's right. I was

700
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: thinking of you. I was thinking, you're gonna say you

701
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 2: got like a sandwiches, and you know, I was picturing

702
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: more of a you know. I mean, if they had

703
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: almonds and apricots, I would have actually been pissed out

704
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: of it, like come on, really, like can I get

705
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: a slice? Yeah, pizza something? I mean, come on, man.

706
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: So then you went home, and then you know, now

707
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: here it is. You rebuilt your life. You successfully filed

708
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: a lawsuit, well you had two lawsuits, right, and one

709
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: was settled and the other one you won. Right, So

710
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: you're now unlike many of our xonneries, there's a bright

711
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: spot there because you know I talk about often, but

712
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 2: the fact is, you know, so many exgonneries and something

713
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: we're working to fix do not receive compensation. You were

714
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 2: able to prove violations of your civil rights and other

715
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 2: things that led to you being compensated in a meaningful way.

716
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: That's going to now allow you to help fix the system.

717
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 2: That that would be a great full circle, wouldn't it.

718
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: You know, I can't wait, and I'm not minimizing the

719
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: money here because it makes my life very enjoyable. I

720
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 1: think the true joyous moments for me since I've been

721
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: home is that before I even got out. And this

722
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: is this is I hope it can be sort of

723
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: passed along to those who are who were imprisoned rightly

724
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: or wrongly. But this idea that you have to before

725
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: you even get out. You can't sort of prepare yourself

726
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: the week to date that the week to the night before,

727
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: like okay, tomorrow is my big release date. Let me

728
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: kind of get my thoughts together. This has to happen

729
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: long before the door opens. And so I feel that,

730
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: in sort of credit to myself and those who were

731
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: around me, that my transition phase happened long before the

732
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: door opened, and so when the door opened, I felt

733
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: very prepared to just attempt to just now really be free,

734
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: because a common theme was when you got there, some

735
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: older guy kind of gave you some like advice. As

736
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: an example, you have five years years to do, and

737
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: the advice was for the first four years, just kind

738
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: of hang out, man, you know you're in prison. Just relax,

739
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: just play some cards and shit, and if you know

740
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: you want to play dominoes, go work out. Right. But

741
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: the last year, man, like the last year, like, you know,

742
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: go to church, or if you're smoking, stop smoking, get

743
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 1: it together, right, And I thought that was pretty good advice. Shit,

744
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: why not, man? What else you got to lose? Right?

745
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: And at some point I realized that that even though

746
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: it was a lifer, that advice applied to me, and

747
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: it was against suspending complete reality here. But it was like,

748
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm making all these efforts to try

749
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: to get my case hurt and try to get some

750
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: attention here. Let me work on me too, Let me

751
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: work on this idea that I need to prepare myself.

752
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: And so fast forward I went a month after I

753
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: got out with some good friends Scott Wooden and who

754
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: ended up living with in Mannon Beach and his wife

755
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: Jeanie would. I enrolled at a great university in Los Angeles,

756
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: Loyola Marymount University. So I went from and I'm sort

757
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: of funny here, but I went from one prison to

758
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: another because it had all the elements that I needed,

759
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: and I felt like, for a guy like me, I

760
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: needed the structure that I had been accustomed to. And

761
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: it's not the put down, but it was the university

762
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: gave me the camaraderie, the friendship. There was no Bob Wire,

763
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: but shit, I had deadlines, man, I had to show up,

764
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: you know. And so it went from a very negative

765
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: environment that I was into a very very loving and

766
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: encouraging space, which was the school right along with just

767
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: sort of being active and being activism. How could I

768
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: not support the Innocence Project and ways the end of

769
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: death penalty in California and other social issues around the state.

770
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: And that's just gotten a whole lot worse with the

771
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 2: speed up to death penalty referendum that passed in California,

772
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: which is absolutely unimaginable and unconscionable. That people would have

773
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: been terrible because well, essentially they voted for guaranteeing that

774
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 2: We're going to execute a lot of innocent people because

775
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: the changes to the law are devastating to people who

776
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 2: have claims of innocence. It's exactly what it sounds like.

777
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: It's the speed up to death penalty. Yep, none of

778
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 2: it makes any sense. But voices like yours and all

779
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: the closure that is the media is really driving interest

780
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: in this issue, this issue of innocence, this issue of

781
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: mass incarceration and other related criminal justice problems that are

782
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: sadly uniquely American problems because other countries are so much

783
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: more evolved than we are. You know, it's incredible, Frankie.

784
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 2: We have five percent of the world's population at twenty

785
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: five percent of the world's prison population. The point I'm

786
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: making is that when we process people at this rate,

787
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 2: where we just keep feeding this prison industrial complex, they're

788
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 2: going to be mistakes. They're going to be more Frankie Correos,

789
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: we have to reverse the entire way of thinking that

790
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: we have and start to become a more progressive society

791
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: in terms of the way we treat the people who

792
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 2: are really the least among us, people who find themselves

793
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 2: in the situation that you are in. Not a wealthy

794
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: person by any means, and then just being ground up.

795
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: By the system.

796
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: I want to get to last words because I always

797
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 2: like to give our guests the opportunity to air anything

798
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: that you can think of that you want to share

799
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: with our audience. You've been through so much, You've come

800
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 2: through sounding, looking, feeling, acting like a person who knows stuff.

801
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 2: You have such a calm demeanor and such a positive outlook.

802
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 2: It's almost unnerving to be honest with you, you know. I mean,

803
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 2: for a minute there you were making prison sound like

804
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: it was like, yeah, you know whatever. The many years

805
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: that man, I'm like, it's just.

806
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: You know, thank you Jason for these final words here

807
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 1: that I think that for many people listening, and people

808
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 1: even in my life now think, you know, like this dude,

809
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: you know this optimism stuff is he's taken to a

810
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: different level here, right, And you know, I wish that

811
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: I can sort of either write a book or explain

812
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: how I made it through and how these things weren't

813
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: able to penetrate my armor here. But I suffer I

814
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: can't minimize that there are things and moments where I

815
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: might hear a song that might trigger true sadness about

816
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: what I'd experienced as a whole about the things that

817
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: were lost, about you know, all the what ifs, right

818
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: and very quickly, if I made it a point to

819
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: remember what anger and what revenge and what hatred does

820
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: to someone, tell you even deeper here that when I

821
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: was in prison, I think about those who had owned that,

822
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: who had owned the anger and the revenge and the hatred,

823
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: and I saw these men that were being blinded by it,

824
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: and I don't want to be that. And here we

825
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: are in a room full of statues, this beautiful art

826
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: that predates all of us here, and I think about

827
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: if that was who I'd become in prison, I would

828
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be here one and two. If I had

829
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,439
Speaker 1: traces of that and I was out on some level,

830
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 1: I would still be on the inside. I would be

831
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: physically free, but the rage that would be living within

832
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: me would be like a prison all to itself. And

833
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 1: so I mean, I'm happy that I can make those

834
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: connections of my own existence for my own personal healing

835
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: and as a move forward to my life. And speaking

836
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: of that life, I'm happily married. I have three amazing children.

837
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: I have theo Akiva and Frieda. My wife, ft is amazing,

838
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: and life is great, and I think it's a responsibility

839
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: for not only myself my family to take on this

840
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: responsibility of giving people the pleasure of experiencing the cognitive dissonance,

841
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: which is you are around or you hear, and you

842
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: experience something that suspends you from and it shocks you

843
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: into like this is not what I expected from a

844
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 1: guy who had been in prison for all these years,

845
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,439
Speaker 1: And it challenges you your own beliefs, you know, things

846
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: you've been carrying with you. This psychological moment says wow,

847
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 1: like I need to change what I used to think

848
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: about those who were on the inside. And so it's

849
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 1: a responsibility for me and other exenreies, I feel that

850
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: to awaken that side of all of us to say,

851
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 1: let's not do that. Let's not do that to each other.

852
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: And when someone says, and it's not a joke anymore

853
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: that they are innocent, let's listen, because we know many

854
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: experiences in many stories that are tragic that we've been

855
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: listening to this whole weekend of if only someone really

856
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: listened and cared.

857
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and everybody out there has the power to make

858
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: a difference. I always encourage our audience to get involved

859
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 2: and it's great to see that many of them are

860
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 2: I know and hearing story. For me again, it puts

861
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 2: gratitude in my attitude. It makes all those little wham

862
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: winds that we all have in life just seem so

863
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 2: much easier to deal with and so much to surface noise,

864
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: right when somebody like you can come and have this

865
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: sort of aura. And it's amazing, Frankie. You know, the

866
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 2: fact is, to any of us in the movement and

867
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 2: to other people on the outside, it's a source of

868
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: never ending wonder and awe that every single Xonery I've

869
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 2: ever met has some version of that type of higher

870
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: consciousness that you've managed to achieve. They have this state

871
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 2: of almost like a state of grace that is. It's

872
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 2: just inspiring, that's all it is. And so I appreciate

873
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: you taking the time to share your experience, strength and

874
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: hope with us. And again, I'm just going to have

875
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 2: to take a moment to process this, and then I'm

876
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: going to go and get busy and get back to

877
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: work on helping others.

878
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: That's right.

879
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 2: We've had a very unique experience because we've been recording

880
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 2: the podcast in an idyllic environment. We're actually in a

881
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 2: room in a home overlooking the Pacific Ocean on a cliff,

882
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 2: surrounded by the most incredible African art. So I want

883
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 2: to thank our hosts Bill LaRock and Michelle Chicarelli Lo

884
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,240
Speaker 2: Rock for having us here and allowing us to record

885
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 2: in their beautiful home. Don't forget to give us a

886
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.

887
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: It really helps.

888
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: And I'm a proud donor to the Ennisis Project, and

889
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

890
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

891
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 2: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and

892
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 2: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

893
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 2: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

894
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

895
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

896
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 2: faceboo book at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason

897
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 2: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and

898
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 2: association with Signal Company Number one