1 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: As we were working on the Turning Room of Mirrors, 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,479 Speaker 1: we came across so many fascinating stories that we didn't 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: have time for in the final series, So today's episode 4 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: will sound a little different. I asked each of our 5 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: team members to bring a tidbit or story that they 6 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: stumbled across and working on the series that fascinated them 7 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: or surprised them, and to share it with the group. 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: So today we're all here to talk. We have Emily Foreman, 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: our editor, James Trout or JT who sound designed the series, 10 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: and Ailan Lance Lesser, who co wrote and reported the 11 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: series with me. You may remember she's also my sister. 12 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: You've heard from her before. So Ailen, what did you 13 00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: bring today? What's been on your mind? 14 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: So I don't know. As we were researching the world 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 2: of Ballet, one little piece that stuck out to me 16 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 2: was something that actually Chloe Angel talked a lot about 17 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 2: when we spoke with her, and that she also wrote 18 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 2: about in her book, and it's point shoes. When I 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 2: think of Ballet, one of the first images that comes 20 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 2: to mind is point shoes. One could even argue that 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: they're part of the mystery and the mystique and actually 22 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 2: they were first developed in the eighteen thirties when a 23 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,559 Speaker 2: bunch of choreographers were interested in getting dancers to look 24 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 2: like they're floating. But what's interesting to me is over 25 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 2: time since then, well over one hundred years, point shoes 26 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: really haven't changed that much. Obviously they've changed to some degree, 27 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: but ultimately most point shoes are still being made out 28 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: of the same materials and that's fabric, glue, and paper. 29 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: They're very uncomfortable, like it's not fun to be a 30 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: point shoe. They can also lead to a bunch of 31 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: stress fractures in your feet and toes. They can lead 32 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: to ankle injuries, they can lead to horrible blisters and bunions. 33 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: And also when you're walking around day to day, usually 34 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: you put about thirty percent of your body weight on 35 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: your big toe. That's you know, normal day to day 36 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 2: walking around. But when you're on a point shoe and 37 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: you're on point, you're putting all of your body weight 38 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: right on your big toe and also specifically on the 39 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: joint next to your big toe, and that joint isn't 40 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 2: used to that, so it's very painful and it really 41 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: can lead to a lot of injury. For dancers, which 42 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: first of all affects their careers or it could affect 43 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 2: them long term, even just day to day living moving 44 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: around the world. 45 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 3: I've heard this many times. Pointes are made of fabric, 46 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 3: glue and pater yeat. I just don't understand where the 47 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 3: sport comes from. It sounds like a paper mache project 48 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 3: to me. 49 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: I think that's what's kind of shocking about it. They're 50 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 2: not using up to date materials. 51 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: Usually at least they are like really hard paper and 52 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: cloth sounds not hard, but the glue turns it into 53 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: this very hard thing. 54 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: Dancers are often you know, whacking their point shoes on 55 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 2: the wall or on the ground, even using hammers to 56 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 2: try to get them softer. And then also what can 57 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: happen is you finally get your shoes to the place 58 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 2: where they're perfect, where they're just the right amount of 59 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: firmness and flexibility, but then they start to go too far, 60 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: they're too worn in, and then you have to get 61 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: a new pair. So also a lot of dancers go 62 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: through point shoes very quickly. 63 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 3: At its best, when your point shoe is broken in, 64 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 3: what does it feel like. 65 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: The shank is bending with your arch and helping to 66 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: support you, which is why it's so important that you 67 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: have shoes that are not dead are overbroken in. 68 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: Also, they need to be firm enough because the box 69 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: on some level helps protect the joint by keeping it stiff. 70 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: But if it's too stiff, that's also a problem because 71 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: then it's harder to move. 72 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 4: So like seemingly there's like another material that could just 73 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 4: be that. 74 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: Stiffness exactly JT. And it's funny that you say that, 75 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 2: because I think if you contrast what's happened with ballet 76 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: equipment against what has happened in sporting gear, I mean, 77 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: it's really shocking to contrast those two. So take something 78 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: like soccer. You think of shin guards back in the day. 79 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 2: Initially they were just kind of like padding, and then 80 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: over time they developed all kinds of new materials to 81 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: the point where today as a player, you can pick 82 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 2: how heavy your shin guards are, how hard they are, 83 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: how they fit you, how big they are, all these 84 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: different things. Or even cleats, they've changed a lot, and 85 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 2: when turf was invented, cleats totally changed to help protect 86 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: players against turf injuries. Or you think about American football 87 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 2: helmets and how obviously those are very important for protection. 88 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: But football helmets are lab tested and the NFL actually 89 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: requires players to wear certain helmets that don't fall under 90 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: this not recommended category by these lab tests, and it's 91 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,679 Speaker 2: constantly changing year to year, whereas in ballet it really 92 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: isn't changing that much. Now, there have been some changes, 93 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: some companies have tried playing around with material it's not 94 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: like no one has tried it. For example, there's a 95 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: company called Gainer Mindon that in the nineties came out 96 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: with a point shoe that had a box and a 97 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 2: shank of malleable plastic. So basically where the toes go 98 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: in the shoe and kind of the sole or the 99 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: base of the shoe are made of this plastic that 100 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 2: can adjust. And the nice thing about these shoes is 101 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 2: that they also last longer because they're built with these 102 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 2: materials that don't wear down as quickly. They're built to 103 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 2: last at a very specific level of flexibility. That sounds good, 104 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: It does sound good, but weirdly, they just didn't really 105 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 2: take off. I mean, there's still an existence, but they're 106 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 2: just not popular. And actually ballet schools across the country, 107 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,239 Speaker 2: many of them do not allow dancers who are learning 108 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: to dance on point to use Gainer Minten's. The argument 109 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 2: is that these shoes actually make it easier to pop 110 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 2: up on point, so some teachers argue that you're not 111 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: building the muscles correctly. But the thing about these shoes 112 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 2: is that they are much more comfortable and they're supposed 113 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: to be way safer. According to the founder of the 114 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 2: shoe company, Gainer Minden, they are quote the first and 115 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: the only point shoe that was ever designed with dancers 116 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: health and safety in mind. And so while there are 117 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: some dancers who use these shoes, ultimately they're just not popular. 118 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: And Chloe Angel argues that point shoes could be made 119 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: even safer than Gainer Minden's with the technology we have today, 120 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: for example, if they made the shoes straighter and more 121 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: wide up until the tip of the toe. But they're 122 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 2: just not made safer or more comfortable. What it comes 123 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: down to, most likely is the ballet world's concerned with 124 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: the line and the esthetic that the shoe needs to 125 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: look a very specific way, and even i mean going 126 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 2: back to balanching, he had a very specific preference on 127 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: point shoe. He preferred freeds, like the old school point 128 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: shoes that you typically see. 129 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: I remember one of my classmates got a pair of 130 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: Gainer Mendens. I remember, you're like, oh, my god, wouldn't 131 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: it be cool to have comfier point shoes. But also 132 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: I did feel like there is a little bit of 133 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: stigma of oh, they're more comfortable, and so there's like 134 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: maybe some kind of weakness if you choose to wear 135 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: Gainer Mindons. So I didn't try them for that reason. 136 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: And now looking back, I'm like, Erico, why wouldn't you 137 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: just try them? I mean, my guess is it's not 138 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: like there's been some in depth clinical study on the 139 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: anatomy of the foot during ballet steps and how much 140 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: the muscle is being used in these different types of shoes. 141 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: I do wonder to what extent that's based on, like 142 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: some scientific truths versus a fear of changing the norm. 143 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: I think you do have to take a risk to 144 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: try something new, to try to be safer. 145 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 3: It's like a fine line between like this idea that 146 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 3: it's just not it hasn't been embraced. It's kind of 147 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 3: like suffering is a necessary part of the leadism involved, 148 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 3: otherwise it's not ballet. It's like a fine line between 149 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: that versus what I'm hearing you're saying of, Oh, you're 150 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 3: not going to build this foundation that you need, You're 151 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 3: not going to build the muscles that you need to 152 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 3: do this thing. But what does that actually mean? Are 153 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 3: they thinking about like long term outcomes? What is implied 154 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: in this not being embraced. 155 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: Chloe also makes that point that teachers across the country 156 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: do think of it as sort of a cheat, and 157 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,719 Speaker 2: it is not just implicitly but kind of explicitly look 158 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: down upon, and even some celebrity teachers, so teachers that 159 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: are like well known in the field have kind of 160 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: come out against it, and one even said, ballet isn't 161 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 2: about health. It's an art form. And that's true. You know, 162 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: ballet is an art form, but that doesn't mean you 163 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 2: can't consider health. 164 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 4: In that it reminds me of hockey players who refuse 165 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 4: to wear helmets when they'd made the rule change and 166 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 4: they like literally grandfathered in certain people that were like, 167 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 4: I refuse to wear a helmet while I play hockey. 168 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 4: You look back in you're life, like, one, those guys 169 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 4: are crazy. They're playing an insanely physical game like that, 170 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 4: And also two, I think in the same way that 171 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 4: ballet has like it's changed over time, right, we demand more, 172 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 4: The game is faster, the athletes train harder, just like 173 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 4: with ballet, and I think if we're going to continue 174 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 4: to push the speed and the style that we want, 175 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 4: then you're going to have to make some changes to 176 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 4: the footwear or the equipment or whatever it is. I 177 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 4: think that's just progress. 178 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: That's such a good point, JT. Because you're totally right 179 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 1: that the technical expectations are constantly increasing for dancers. Every 180 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: generation of dancers is like you're expected to be able 181 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: to have your leg higher, do more piroetes at once. 182 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: So it does make sense that the gear would change 183 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: with that, you know, greater level of force et cetera 184 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: that you're putting on the shoes. 185 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 2: It does, I think all come back to culture. Why 186 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: is that the world doesn't want to be open to 187 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: these types of changes. Yeah, it's interesting how certain cultures 188 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: are maybe that much more resistant to change. 189 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: When we come back Tchaikovsky's Lost Potada and more stories 190 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: from our team, stay tuned. I'm curious, JT, what's been 191 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: on your mind coming into this conversation. 192 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 4: So in the series, we mentioned this ballet called the 193 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 4: Tchaikovsky PoTA Da basically this famous piece that bouncing choreographed 194 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 4: to music by the Russian composer Peter Tchaikovsky, and I 195 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 4: realized that there's all this history behind the music for 196 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 4: the Poda Da. I kind of went down this rabbit 197 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 4: hole waiting between edits. So I was trying to find 198 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 4: the specific one that Balanchine used, and I was frustrated 199 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 4: because I was like, oh, I'm seeing that, like this 200 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 4: might have come from Swan Lake. But then I was 201 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 4: kind of like, why would Balanchine take a section of 202 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 4: Swan Lake and just use it? And what I found was, actually, 203 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 4: it is a section of Swan Lake that we have 204 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 4: probably never heard before or seen before Balanchine used it. 205 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 4: The story is very complex and has a lot of 206 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 4: really complicated Russian names in it. So here we go, 207 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 4: I'm gonna try to say them all. In eighteen seventy 208 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 4: ish eighteen seventies, let's say Tchaikowsky gets commissioned to write 209 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 4: his ballet and at the time, ballet music was pretty 210 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 4: much like crap. If you were a composer in the 211 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 4: ilk of Tchaikovsky at the time, you were like, this 212 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 4: is just kind of repetitive garbage, right, Like you don't 213 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 4: go to the ballet for the music essentially, So he 214 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 4: gets this thing. He's like, yeah, cool, like I could 215 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 4: use the money. Also, yeah, ballet is great. He starts 216 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 4: writing Swan Lake. He writes a lot of it pretty fast, 217 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 4: and then he sort of gets stuck on the instrumentation. 218 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 4: Blah blah blah blah. He takes the score that he 219 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 4: has written so far to the choreographer, Julius Rasinger, who 220 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 4: is like this kind of like mid, like super mid choreographer. 221 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 4: He this is like, this is like this is just 222 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 4: what I've been reading. I'm sure he was a very 223 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 4: nice guy. He's like, this is crazy complicated. The dancers 224 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 4: complain about the music in the rehearsal. They're like, well, 225 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 4: we can't chore to this and the other thing. At 226 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 4: the time, choreographers and dancers actually had a majority stake 227 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 4: in the control and sort of like composers were like 228 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 4: not again, because the music was like very repetitive and 229 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 4: kind of easier to dance to, right, It was like 230 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 4: it was an afterthing, you know. So these dancers are like, 231 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 4: you're making this sort of complex thing that's really fast. 232 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 4: We can't dance to this, we can't do our normal stuff. 233 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 4: So they don't like it. So this choreographer racinger starts 234 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 4: chopping it. I read somewhere it's like they cut like 235 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 4: a third of the original score out just because it 236 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 4: was like too much. Meanwhile, this like other drama, starts happening, 237 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 4: where the dancer that basically this whole thing has been 238 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 4: choreographed for who's playing the lead. This name is insanely complicated. 239 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 4: I'm going to drop it in the chat just so 240 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 4: you can see what I'm trying to pronounce. This Prima 241 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 4: Ballerina by Anna Sobi Shanksky, Basically, they choreographed the majority 242 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 4: of Swan like for her then drama, she's kind of 243 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 4: seeing this Russian aligarch who gives her a bunch of jewels. 244 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 4: But then it's like, I'm not going to marry you. 245 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 4: He's like see you later, my right, So they premiere 246 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 4: the ballet with her second and everyone hates it. Right, 247 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 4: They like there had have been a bunch of stuff 248 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 4: that it leaked that the dancers didn't like the music. Obviously, 249 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 4: with the change of the main ballerina. Basically, the reviews 250 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 4: were like, this is crap. Like the music is terrible, 251 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 4: Like we don't get it. I imagine that if you make 252 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 4: like a really complicated score and then the choreography is 253 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 4: struggling to keep up, like it only accentuates how different 254 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 4: the score is, do you know what I mean? Like, so, 255 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 4: I'm sure people were just like, what is this like 256 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 4: hot garbage that we're watching? So somehow Anna, yes, she 257 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 4: comes back. There's some some sort of amends are made, 258 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 4: Like a month later, they're like, we're going to go 259 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 4: to Moscow, and she's like, well, I got to change 260 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 4: this really specific section in Act three. I don't like 261 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 4: the patata that's there that was originally written. So I'm 262 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 4: going to go to Moscow and have this ringer ballet 263 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 4: composer Ludwig Minkus rewrite a section of Act three, which. 264 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: Is understandable if you come back to this production and 265 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: has terrible reviews and they're like, now we're going to 266 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: go on tour and you're going to be the star 267 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: of this trash production that no one likes. 268 00:16:54,960 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 4: So Tchaikowsky gets win that this is happening, and he's like, no, 269 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 4: I should write all the music for my composition. They'd 270 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 4: already rechoreographed all this stuff for this new Patada that 271 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 4: had been written into Act three. So Tchaikovsky is like, cool, 272 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 4: I'll just write a score so you don't have to 273 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 4: change the choreography, but like, I want to mess with 274 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 4: like all of the notation and orchestration of the piece. 275 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 4: So he goes in and he changes it. They do 276 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 4: like another run of shows that's longer, and people are like, yeah, 277 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 4: this is fine whatever, but then it goes away like 278 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 4: it's just done. They drop it from the Balshoi. They're like, 279 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 4: we're not going to do Swan Lake anymore, which is bizarre. 280 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 4: Right when we started this podcast, I was like, what 281 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 4: ballets do I know? The Nutcracker and Swan Lake both 282 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 4: Tdchaikovsky works also, which is funny. Tchaikowski dies, so I 283 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 4: think there's like probably some generally in his work. So 284 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 4: they pick it back up, but they get a new 285 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 4: choreographer hit. Actually, Tchaikowsky's brother rewrites a lot of the 286 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 4: story of Swan Lake. They pull the Act one music 287 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 4: back in to this Act three Potada and remake Swan Lake, 288 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 4: and like that's the swan Lake everyone Ben falls in 289 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 4: love with. That's like the dance of the Black Swan, right, 290 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 4: Like that's the return of the of the original Act 291 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 4: one music comes back in and like that's what we know? 292 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 4: Is that? So basically there's this whole section, this section 293 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 4: that Tchaikowsky had rewritten in Act three that wasn't included 294 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 4: in the original score. So it wasn't until nineteen fifty 295 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 4: three when a balshroy arkivist finds these pages that he rewrote, 296 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 4: and that's what balancing hears, and he's like, I have 297 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 4: to do something with this. He makes what's now known 298 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 4: as the Tchaikowsky Potida, which premieres in nineteen sixty. It's 299 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 4: like this lost piece that was kind of put aside 300 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 4: because it was way too ahead of its time in 301 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 4: the ballet composition world. Then you have this choreographer who 302 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 4: is changing ballet and he gravitates to this piece. It 303 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 4: was almost like Tchaikowsky was waiting for someone like a 304 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 4: choreographer like balanching, to create this kind of thing. 305 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 2: That's the same piece that Sophie saw decades later and 306 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 2: was so inspired by the big movement she saw and 307 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: then decided I want to dance balanching from that piece. 308 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: It's just funny to think how like the legacy of 309 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 2: one piece continues to change people's lives. 310 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 4: The general plot of Swan Lake, like over the course 311 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 4: of history has been like the end of Swan Lake 312 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 4: has change so many times depending on who's putting it on, 313 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 4: Like it seems like there's at least fifteen different endings 314 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 4: or different sections, and people cut stuff and move stuff. 315 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 4: You would just assume that it's such a classic that 316 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 4: it would never be touched, especially like coming off our 317 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 4: whole series where we're talking about how ballet doesn't want 318 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 4: to change anything. Yeah, and like, look at this piece 319 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 4: that had so many changes. 320 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: I love hearing stories like this something that now is 321 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: considered like the greatest of the great and then you 322 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: go back to like when it first came out and 323 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: people were like, this is crap, no one likes it. 324 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: Or Tchaikovsky wrote all this amazing ballet music, but the 325 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: first one he writes, the dancers are mad at him 326 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: because they're like, we can't dance to this. I just 327 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: find that so encouraging to not always follow the norm 328 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: of what's always been done in whatever art form that 329 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: you're in love it, Okay, Emily, how about you? 330 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 3: Okay? So something I've been thinking about a lot since 331 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 3: our series Rap is the dancer Holly Howard. So we 332 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 3: talked about Holly in our mus episode. She's one of 333 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 3: Balancine's first American muses around the time when he first 334 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 3: debuted sarahnd around nineteen thirty four. She was among that 335 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 3: first class of dancers. And what we discussed about her 336 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 3: in the series is that she and Balanchine were what 337 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 3: it seemed like, romantically involved, and she got four abortions 338 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 3: by Balanchine. This is from Cursine's diaries, and we kind 339 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 3: of leave her story there, and for us, that was 340 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 3: like a moving anecdote that illustrates this pattern that we 341 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 3: were noticing in lots of historians of notice in how 342 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 3: Balanchine treated his muses. He'd fall in love, maybe get 343 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 3: romantically involved, and then he'd inevitably sort of move on 344 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 3: from them to his next muse. So that's where we 345 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 3: left Holly, and I was just kind of curious what 346 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 3: happened to her and her career and if I could 347 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 3: glean anything more about her, and that was quite difficult 348 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 3: to do. I think we were trying to find out 349 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 3: if she was even still alive. That was hard to do. 350 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 3: There's no obituaries or anything like that about Holly Howard, 351 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 3: but yet she was one of these iconic muses in 352 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 3: Balanchine's life. So wow, I decided to take a crack 353 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 3: at it, just to retrace my steps a little bit. 354 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 3: The first thing we did was enlist a friend of 355 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 3: the podcast who happens to be a private investigator. Now 356 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 3: that sounds a little creepy, it's not what you think 357 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 3: it was. Basically, he directed us to ancestry dot com, 358 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 3: which is a very commonly used resource that we should 359 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 3: use pro tip pro tip, something we learned in recording 360 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 3: this series. And then I also found some additional information 361 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 3: in this book Mister b. George balan Jean's Twentieth Century 362 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 3: by Jennifer Homans, there's a little bit more on Holly. 363 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 3: So basically, here's what I can tell you about Holly. 364 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 3: She was born in nineteen eighteen in Virginia. She had 365 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 3: a twin brother named Kent. The Howards they were this 366 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 3: big military family. Their father was a general it looks 367 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 3: like under Patent and Eisenhower, and she sort of grew 368 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 3: up wherever he was stationed, which was mostly in the 369 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 3: Philippines anyway, so Holly got involved in ballet from a 370 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 3: very young age, and I know that she spent some 371 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 3: time training with a woman named Catherine Littlefield. And this 372 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 3: would be years before Balanjan would show up in America. 373 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 3: It feels like often the way we talk about Balancine's 374 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 3: debut in this country, it's almost as if he sort 375 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 3: of descended upon the US and just like collected this 376 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 3: motley crew of dancers that didn't know any better, and 377 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 3: just like delivered ballet to the people. 378 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 4: There was this. 379 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 3: New Yorker description of an event that they did talking 380 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 3: about Sarah Nod where they say, quote, he was a 381 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 3: ballet choreographer and almost nobody in the United States could 382 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 3: dance back. He opened a school, but to judge from 383 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 3: the photos, the young women he was able to collect 384 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 3: were mostly rather plump and bewildered. Burn Okay, I know 385 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 3: it's kind of exulting, and the truth was that really 386 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 3: ballet was here. This is a point that Teresa Ruth 387 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 3: Howard makes. We talked to Teresa Ruth Howard in one 388 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: of our episodes. You have many examples of this, as 389 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 3: early as eighteen forty six. There's George Washington Smith. There's 390 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 3: this guy from Philadelphia. He was doing his thing. He's 391 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 3: believed to be a mixed race man, and he danced 392 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 3: in the premiere of Giselle. Here in the US, there's 393 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 3: Dorothy Alexander, who founded a school in Atlanta in nineteen 394 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 3: twenty nine that would later become the Atlanta Ballet. So, yeah, 395 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 3: lots of examples of people doing ballet here, teaching people 396 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 3: ballet here before balancing came. And so then you have 397 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 3: Catherine Littlefield. Catherine Littlefield had this school in Philly, and 398 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 3: Ballan Sheen when he was starting his company, recruited a 399 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 3: bunch of dancers from her school, and one of those 400 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 3: dancers was Holly Howard. So then at this point, I 401 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 3: believe Holly's parents are divorced and Lois, Holly's mother moves 402 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 3: Holly and her twin brother Kent to New York, where 403 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 3: Holly ends up in Balancine's school, and Lois devotes a 404 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 3: ton of time to her daughter's career. I talked to 405 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 3: Holly's niece, who told me a little bit about her 406 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 3: aunt and has fond memories of her. 407 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: That's amazing nice sleuthing Emily to find her. Wow. 408 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 3: I did call six of her nieces and nephews. These 409 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 3: would be Kent's children. So her niece told me that 410 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 3: basically her grandmother, Lois, Holly's mother, devoted a ton of 411 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 3: time to Holly's career and was essentially the company cheferone. 412 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 3: This is also backed up by Lincoln Kirstine's diaries that 413 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 3: Lois was Holly's escort and probably spent a lot of 414 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 3: time with Balancing. 415 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 4: Two. 416 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 3: It seems like Holly and Balanching were in a relationship 417 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 3: for over a year. Her niece did mention once that 418 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 3: Balancing wanted to marry Holly. I don't know what to 419 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 3: make of that. This is where we hear the sort 420 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 3: of abortion rumor. It was maybe a fourth or fifth abortion, 421 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 3: and I was curious to a little bit about the 422 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 3: context of what that would have been like to sort 423 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 3: of get an abortion. In the nineteen thirties in New York, 424 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 3: it wasn't an uncommon use of birth control. Obviously it 425 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 3: was illegal. There were like safe hygienic options through midwives 426 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 3: that you could get where the outcome could go well. 427 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 3: But at the same time, because it's illegal, there's lots 428 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 3: of like underground, dangerous options too. We don't really know 429 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 3: the conditions that Holly dealt with or the form that 430 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 3: those abortions took. I mean, she's also dancing all of 431 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 3: the time and exerting her body in these ways, so 432 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 3: I kind of wonder how that came into play too. 433 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 3: Then Holmans writes about this other point about Holly's mother, 434 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 3: how she blamed George for ruining her young daughter, and 435 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 3: she threatened to have him deported. 436 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: Whoa ruining because they had this romantic relationship. 437 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 3: And yeah, and it seemed like, based on comments made 438 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 3: by dancers, people knew about the abortions, people knew about 439 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 3: this relationship. She felt it ruined her daughter's reputation. And 440 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 3: I'm even hesitant to repeat this, but there is a 441 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 3: really troubling footnote from this guy, John Terrorist. He was 442 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 3: a former balancing dancer, and he said, they say no 443 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 3: proof Holly is running a whorehouse in Boston. Everybody said 444 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 3: she became a whore and it was because of him. 445 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll have more on Holly Howard's life, 446 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: plus we get final reactions from our team on this season. 447 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: Stay tuned. So what's your takeaway about what we do 448 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: know about Holly Howard? 449 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know what to make of this. 450 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 3: It sounds very messy. You have Lois potentially trying to 451 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 3: get Balanchine deported. There is some evidence to show that 452 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 3: an immigration agent came to question Balanchine, but ultimately like 453 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 3: nothing came of it. And it's kind of where we 454 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 3: left Holly in our story, which was we don't really 455 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 3: know what happened to her career. 456 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 4: That feels just like such a move that I wish 457 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 4: I could say like we've outgrown as a society, but 458 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 4: I feel like that happens all the time. If you 459 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 4: leave some organization negatively, they're going to do whatever they 460 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 4: can to erase you from their records. 461 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it does feel like she's been erased. And 462 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 3: that's not the case with all of the dancers of 463 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 3: the time. You know, there is documentation of dancers and 464 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 3: the careers that they had. And the niece said, because 465 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 3: I asked her if did Holly keep a diary or anything, 466 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 3: and the niece said, my mother was a protective person 467 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 3: and was not a chatty kathy. She if there was 468 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 3: such a thing, may have decided it would be better 469 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 3: to not see the light of day. And I understand 470 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 3: to an extent like, you know, what is the value 471 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 3: in continuing to talk about these details. At the same time, 472 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 3: we're sort of left at this cliff, this precipice where 473 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 3: the abortion comment is the last thing we've heard, and 474 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 3: it is kind of told as this like moment of 475 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,239 Speaker 3: I don't know, shame or tragedy or like ending of 476 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 3: a career, a rature of her life as a dancer, 477 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 3: And I mean the niece sort of admitted like, on 478 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 3: the other hand, that means we don't know what happened 479 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 3: to her. We don't know some of these details on 480 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 3: me what we want to know. It might be a 481 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 3: different story, it might be a different story of agency, 482 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 3: but we can't know. But we don't know actually how 483 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 3: Holly felt about it, like how much choice that she 484 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 3: felt she had. And I kind of crave those details 485 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 3: because I crave a document of that time and like 486 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 3: how people we're thinking about that choice just to see 487 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 3: her as more of an independent person. 488 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: I'm so curious what she was like as a person 489 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: and what their relationship felt like, like what was their 490 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: relationship dynamic? And of course there are some power structures 491 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: at play, because Balancine was her boss when they were together. 492 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, I feel like I don't I still don't know. 493 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: I don't know her, you know, I feel like I 494 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: still don't know her. 495 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 2: And also I just kind of wonder about her personal 496 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: life after Balanchine. Did she have other partners? You know, 497 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 2: how much did her relationship with Balancine also impact her 498 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 2: personal life from there on out? 499 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 3: She never married, she never had kids of her own. 500 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 3: Who's around fifty years old when she died. She died 501 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 3: of cancer. The niece has some at least recollection or 502 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 3: image of her, having been surrounded by a lot of friends. 503 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 3: The niece's take on her aunt, it's like, well, she 504 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 3: was just Aunt Holly to me. We loved her, she 505 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 3: loved us. It seemed like she poured a lot of 506 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 3: affection into her nieces and nephews. She remembers her teaching dance, 507 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 3: and she recalls one visit somewhere along the line of 508 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 3: like visiting Holly, and she says that I remember I 509 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 3: had learned a dance step someplace in our travels, and 510 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 3: I was so proud to show it to her. I 511 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 3: thought I had it just right. And she looked at 512 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 3: me and smiled and said, no, that's not the way 513 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 3: it goes and then she performed it for me. Oh 514 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 3: and I'm sure with exact precision, and I couldn't quite 515 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 3: see the difference between what I had done and she 516 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 3: had done. 517 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: I love that. 518 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 3: I don't know, that's it. 519 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: I've been reflecting a little bit on this whole series, 520 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: and one thing that's really struck me has been some 521 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: of the responses from listeners. And we've gotten some really 522 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: long emails and letters from listeners sharing their stories that 523 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: have just been incredibly moving. And they've been from people 524 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: with all kinds of dance backgrounds, including long term professional 525 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: dancers at elite companies, as well as people who just 526 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: studied a little ballet as a kid. But I think 527 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: one of the things that really surprised me actually was 528 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: that the episode that got the most active vocal response 529 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: from listeners was episode six. And that's the episode in 530 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: which Ayleen and I talk about our lives and my 531 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: experience with ballet. And this is an episode that I 532 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: was really nervous to put out there. I think we 533 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: were not sure if we should publish it at all. 534 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: When we recorded it, we were like, we probably won't 535 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: even use this, but let's just record a conversation and 536 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 1: see what happens, but we decided to include it, and 537 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:20,800 Speaker 1: we just immediately got so many notes from people who listened, 538 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: who wrote their life stories in these emails and talked 539 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: about crying as they listened. It was very moving. I've 540 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: never gotten such a wave of response to an episode, 541 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: and I think it was actually a life lesson for me. 542 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: There's a lot of media there, movies or TV shows 543 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: and storybooks about professional dancers, and I think for a 544 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: lot of people who study ballet, it's like you feel 545 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: close to it. You're like, this was a big part 546 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: of my life years ago, but at the same time, 547 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: you don't feel like you're part of it, and you 548 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: don't think you can claim it as your own, and 549 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: so you end up in this weird limbo of kind 550 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: of having your history invalidated and erased because actually, like 551 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: most people who interact with ballet, their story is much 552 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: more similar to my story than to all of these 553 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: professional dancers have often felt like a weird, lone person 554 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: who it's like, ballet was a big part of my 555 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: life and then I totally left it and there's no 556 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: one like me. But actually there are tons of people 557 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: like me. We just don't talk about it, so that 558 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: blew my mind a little bit. 559 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was exciting to hear from people and then 560 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 2: to hear that they connected with it. And I feel 561 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 2: like that feeling is so relatable beyond ballet, Like I 562 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 2: feel like we all have a part of our past 563 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 2: where we didn't see something through fully, or maybe we 564 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 2: actually kind of did, but we don't perceive it that way, 565 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: and then we just close that part of our stories. 566 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 2: I just think that's like a human thing, And in 567 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 2: a way, I think it was nice for you, Erica, too, 568 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 2: to almost be validated by these listeners. I think you 569 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 2: did have a lot of imposter syndrome going into that episode, 570 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: and you did feel uncomfortable, But I think hearing that 571 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 2: from listeners and then actually hearing their stories was impactful 572 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 2: for you on a personal level. 573 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 3: So one thing on that universality point that really stood 574 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 3: out to me was this one letter from one of 575 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 3: our listeners, and I'm just going to read a section 576 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 3: of it. She says, this episode helped me acknowledge that 577 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 3: I'm not as alone in choosing a path away from 578 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 3: my true love as I thought. My passion was music. 579 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 3: I entered the local music school at age five and 580 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 3: By the time I entered high school, I had been 581 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 3: playing several instruments, writing music, and singing in choirs for 582 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 3: almost eleven years. Becoming a professional musician and or composer 583 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 3: was my goal. It was my whole life, just like 584 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,959 Speaker 3: ballet was for Erica. When I turned sick, my mother 585 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 3: took all the money out of a savings account she'd 586 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 3: opened for me when I was ten and bought me 587 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 3: my own instrument. Since it's a local specialty instrument and 588 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 3: not as common as violins, flutes, etc. Every single one 589 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 3: has to be handmade. We waited almost a whole year, 590 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 3: and finally I got it. No more renting from the school, 591 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 3: and then I burned out. I had been pursuing music 592 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 3: for fourteen years and was about to choose a university. 593 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 3: I've been planning to go to the National Music Academy 594 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 3: to become professional, but it all went poof. I used 595 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 3: to find unimaginable freedom when playing, and now all I 596 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 3: felt was dread, fear, and loss of identity. I mean, 597 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 3: I knew I didn't want to do this anymore, but 598 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 3: I had no idea who I was without music, the structure, 599 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 3: the lessons, the daily practices. Now I had so much 600 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 3: free time but nothing to do with it. Erico was 601 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 3: spot on when she said, so what is me because 602 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 3: I'm me? And what is me because of Ballet? I 603 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 3: still feel the same exact way when I think about 604 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 3: the relationship I had with music. I think I've finally 605 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 3: started to find me again. But oh boy, has it 606 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 3: been difficult. I still have my instrument, but it's been 607 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 3: about three years since I touched it. Maybe someday I'll 608 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,479 Speaker 3: pick it up again, I'm not sure. So I thought 609 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 3: that that was pretty incredible that this person wanted to 610 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,839 Speaker 3: reach out because something had resonated so true to her 611 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 3: and what she heard in your experience. 612 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting. I was talking to a really 613 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 1: good friend of mine the other day on the phone, 614 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 1: and she had listened to the podcast. She was my 615 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: college roommate, and she said a line that really struck 616 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: her from that episode between Aileen and me was how 617 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: we had said that it sometimes felt like Ballet was 618 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: my one true love. And then Allen came back in 619 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: the conversation and said, you know, I think that's how 620 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: you perceive it, Erica. In other words, that it might 621 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: not have actually been like my quote unquote one true love. 622 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: But that's sometimes how I feel about it, and that's 623 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: when I get emotional about it. And my friend pointed 624 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: out that that perception might also be based in this 625 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 1: all or nothing attitude that you have as a kid, 626 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: where you have to give everything, and it's almost like 627 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: when you're an abusive relationship, and the highs and lows 628 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: of the abusive relationship and the way it kind of 629 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: takes over your life can make you feel like it's 630 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: the most intense version of love that exists and just 631 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: like keeps you in the relationship and makes you feel 632 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: like it's this great love. And I'm not saying that 633 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,839 Speaker 1: Ballet was like an abusive relationship, but I do think 634 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: that the intensity of it and the requirement that it's 635 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: a big commitment at a young age, you get caught 636 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: up in it and it can turn it into something 637 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: that makes the loss of it even greater and just 638 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: intensifies all of your emotions around it. 639 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, And as humans, it's like the intense things, whatever 640 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 2: they are, sometimes feel good, but that doesn't mean they're 641 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 2: the only thing that can make you happy absolutely or 642 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 2: the only worthwhile thing. 643 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts. 644 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: It's written and produced by Alan Lance, Lesser and Me. 645 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,840 Speaker 1: Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed 646 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,280 Speaker 1: by James Trout. Jessica Carisa is our assistant producer, Andrea 647 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: Assuage is our digital producer. Our executive producers are John 648 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: Parratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch. I get Trina 649 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: Norbel and Nikki Etour at iHeart Podcasts. For photos and 650 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: more details on the series, follow us on Instagram at 651 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: Rococo Punch, and you can reach out via email The 652 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: Turning at Rococo punch dot com. I'm Erica Lance. Thanks 653 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: for listening.