Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flamm, host of wrongful conviction. Over the years,
Speaker 1: hundreds of exanneries have told me their stories. Sadly, with
Speaker 1: the state of our criminal legal system, we're left with
Speaker 1: far more cases than I can possibly handle alone. So
Speaker 1: I've asked some exuneries to handle some of these cases,
Speaker 1: bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could
Speaker 1: only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This
Speaker 1: is one of those interviews.
Speaker 2: In the early morning hours of January thirteenth, nineteen ninety four,
Speaker 2: Stephen Fitch, Reginald Wilson, and Felicia Lewis were in Chicago
Speaker 2: driving in Wilson's car. They stopped at a gas station
Speaker 2: so the two men could use the restroom. When Fitch
Speaker 2: walked back to the car, he saw two men hijacking it,
Speaker 2: one driving and another in the back with Wilson and Lewis.
Speaker 2: Fitch ran across the street and called the police to
Speaker 2: report the car jacket. Later that day, the frozen bodies
Speaker 2: of twenty three year old Illinois state basketball star Wars
Speaker 2: Reginald Wilson, and his twenty year old girlfriend, Felicia Lewis,
Speaker 2: were discovered in a large garbage band in Chicago. Both
Speaker 2: had sustained multiple gunshot wounds. The stolen car was found
Speaker 2: idling in a nearby town after a chase. Two of
Speaker 2: the carjackers were identified as Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamlet.
Speaker 2: They were interviewed and admitted their involvements in the crime.
Speaker 2: They also named three more accomplices, including a guy named Carl.
Speaker 2: Through their investigation, the police were led.
Speaker 3: To Carl Williams.
Speaker 2: The co defendants repeatedly said that Carl Williams wasn't involved
Speaker 2: and there was no physical evidence linking him to the
Speaker 2: carjacking and murders, but with a forced false confession, Carl
Speaker 2: Williams was found guilty of a crime he did not
Speaker 2: commit and was sentenced to natural life in prison. This
Speaker 2: is wrongful conviction. My name is Patrick Persley, also known
Speaker 2: as Free Patrick Pursley. I was previously a guest on
Speaker 2: wrongful conviction as an axignery, but today I'm honored to
Speaker 2: be your guest host. It is a true privilege. We'll
Speaker 2: be talking to two people two Carl's actually attorney Carl Leonard,
Speaker 2: and my good friend and brother Karl Williams. This interview
Speaker 2: was recorded in April twenty twenty two. But Karl and
Speaker 2: I have known each other for a long time. We
Speaker 2: were at Staville Prison together where we both spent countless
Speaker 2: hours in the law library. We probably did what how
Speaker 2: many years you think we did together?
Speaker 3: Oh man, at least how many years you was in Stateville?
Speaker 2: Just twenty three?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's just twenty three, and then I was there
Speaker 3: about twenty three years, So at least twenty twenty three year.
Speaker 2: A couple decades.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's what you.
Speaker 2: Hail from Cook County, Chicago.
Speaker 3: I do rais Chicago born and raised.
Speaker 2: What's that time?
Speaker 3: What they call the lower end?
Speaker 2: The low end got hell of a rep.
Speaker 3: The low end definitely has a hell of a rep.
Speaker 3: But I think that the lower end gets an unfair rep.
Speaker 2: Well, well I don't even think it exists no more.
Speaker 2: It's so it was so bad they knocked the buildings down.
Speaker 3: Then they definitely knocked the buildings down. But the spirit
Speaker 3: and the people are still in that community, serving that
Speaker 3: community in a more productive and positive ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a beautiful thing. So going forward, right, like
Speaker 2: you catch this just this horrific, horrific case. It's a
Speaker 2: very heavy story, right, it's a very so you had
Speaker 2: to carry this. Can you like start us like at
Speaker 2: the beginning, what like what took place?
Speaker 3: So me growing up in that community, it was a
Speaker 3: community like I said that I love, that, I value
Speaker 3: that I appreciate, and at the same time, I also
Speaker 3: made some wrong decisions in that community. I come from
Speaker 3: street hustling, which allowed me to be able to gain
Speaker 3: material wealth. And you know how this operate in those communities.
Speaker 2: You gotta eat very true.
Speaker 3: It brings it brings a long attention. No society good
Speaker 3: in terms of girls and things. Oh we're talking about
Speaker 3: starting from the age of like fifteen years old. And
Speaker 3: what it does is it brings you a ton of attention.
Speaker 3: Everybody knows your name, everybody wants to be connected to you.
Speaker 2: A few months after Carl's seventeenth birthday, a terrible crime
Speaker 2: happened in his neighborhood. Here's attorney Carl Leonard who worked
Speaker 2: on Carl's case.
Speaker 4: The evidence that the state collected was that there was
Speaker 4: carjacking confrontation at a gas station in Chicago. To individuals
Speaker 4: were kidnapped during the carjack, brought to another location. The
Speaker 4: woman was actually assaulted, and both of them ended up
Speaker 4: murdered and in a dumpster, and there were some items
Speaker 4: that were stolen from the vehicle, and the state alleged
Speaker 4: that those items were divvied up among the offenders.
Speaker 2: The other person who had been in the car with
Speaker 2: the victims saw the carjacking and called the police. The
Speaker 2: police tracked down the vehicle in nearby town. They arrested
Speaker 2: two people running from it, Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamlin,
Speaker 2: who were both later convicted of the crime. Chambers and
Speaker 2: Hamlin then provided the police with three more names, so
Speaker 2: Rhice Johnson, Anthony Brown, and a guy named Carl. They
Speaker 2: didn't give his last name, just Carl. It's really rare
Speaker 2: to have this mini co defendants and it's a lot
Speaker 2: to sort through, right.
Speaker 4: This is a case that involves a lot of offenders
Speaker 4: and the police are obviously investigating. Their sort of big
Speaker 4: break is when they find the vehicle, which they had
Speaker 4: brought to a south suburb side Chicago, and that's how
Speaker 4: they made the initial arrests of who would become some
Speaker 4: of Carl's co defendants. There's an individual with them who
Speaker 4: does not end up becoming a co defendant, but who
Speaker 4: is the first one to sort of start talking and
Speaker 4: they he just starts saying names of people who were involved,
Speaker 4: gives the first name Carl. They decide that Carl Williams
Speaker 4: is the car that this person's referring to the.
Speaker 3: Name Carl came up being involved in his brutal cry.
Speaker 3: So with that name be coming up, then who was
Speaker 3: the most popular Carl in that area at that time?
Speaker 3: It was me based off the fact of the street
Speaker 3: hustling and the things that brought me the unworted attention. Now,
Speaker 3: the description that they was given of this Carl was six'
Speaker 3: one to sixty three with your clow hair, light skinned,
Speaker 3: full beard. I mean I was just a young kid
Speaker 3: who barely can still grow.
Speaker 2: A beard to this day, about five to seven.
Speaker 3: I mean, well not quite five seven, but I mean
Speaker 3: I'm about five.
Speaker 2: Right, But you don't match the description skin tone or
Speaker 2: height or.
Speaker 3: I was five to seven at that time, stocky, bild,
Speaker 3: short hair, never had long hair. The description definitely didn't
Speaker 3: fit me.
Speaker 2: The police showed up at the home of Erica Wells,
Speaker 2: Carl's girlfriend at the time. The person that answered the
Speaker 2: door told the police that Karl was upstairs. The police
Speaker 2: entered the home and immediately got rough.
Speaker 3: With him, taking me and throwing me onto the floor,
Speaker 3: slamming me onto the floor, grabbing me by the neck,
Speaker 3: putting the gun to my head, threatening to shoot me
Speaker 3: and to kill me if I move.
Speaker 2: A lot of people don't really realize how like the
Speaker 2: tailor to Americas, like the treatment in the door.
Speaker 3: They absolutely so.
Speaker 2: It is so camped. The violations as far as what
Speaker 2: they would call civil rights violations. Corrects, like we basically
Speaker 2: have no civil rights and at all.
Speaker 3: When you're at that point and feeling that and understanding
Speaker 3: it feels like it takes some of your power away.
Speaker 2: You're powerless in that moment.
Speaker 3: Correct. And they take me downstairs and I have on
Speaker 3: nothing but my underwear, no other clothes on whatsoever. And
Speaker 3: I'm study consistently asking and what's going on. The people
Speaker 3: in the house are asking and what's going on. They
Speaker 3: take me out in handcuffs. Now it's January, before you
Speaker 3: know how cold Chicago could be. To go outside and
Speaker 3: to step outside in the code.
Speaker 2: It's a form of torture of itself.
Speaker 3: But when you think about it today, is it was
Speaker 3: a deliberate.
Speaker 2: Process of course.
Speaker 3: So I ask you the trauma that you have already
Speaker 3: experienced from from the moment that they into the house
Speaker 3: to accuse you of a crime that you didn't commit.
Speaker 3: So the person they take me outside with the handcuffs
Speaker 3: on and just I guess for him to identify me.
Speaker 3: Now they're saying that he's identifying me, and I need
Speaker 3: to go down to the station. And this is where
Speaker 3: the rest of the trauma begins. You can feel the butterflies,
Speaker 3: you can feel the nervousness, you can feel the anxiety
Speaker 3: because of what just happened to you. So there's still
Speaker 3: trauma that's continuing to follow you and walk with you
Speaker 3: through the same path that they're taking you on, which
Speaker 3: is a brutal path. So in them presenting you in
Speaker 3: that way, having you handcuff holding you by your arm
Speaker 3: and just jaking open the door and pushing you there
Speaker 3: and say and the person is it's such a stand.
Speaker 3: You know this person at least like nah, And they
Speaker 3: all go and when you go to every room and
Speaker 3: they say no, it's like, oh man, I've told you,
Speaker 3: but you don't understand that at the time. They put
Speaker 3: you back in that room and you're you know, and
Speaker 3: you're like, oh man, you know that was that? That
Speaker 3: was it? But then our star to go by, or
Speaker 3: you don't know how much time going by because there's
Speaker 3: no clock, and you're like, why am I still here?
Speaker 3: Then you see one of your co defenders come to you.
Speaker 3: They bring him back to you, and he still says no,
Speaker 3: But then they bring him back within the thirty minute
Speaker 3: or within the hour time frame, and now he's crying,
Speaker 3: and you know, and and look what's happened to him?
Speaker 3: And then he says, They ask him again and he says, yeah.
Speaker 3: Now you you know it's it's a concern and a worry.
Speaker 2: Is that starting to lose your grasp on reality?
Speaker 3: And imagine I couldn't explain to you that feeling.
Speaker 2: Now, can we just be clear, because it's not it's torture.
Speaker 2: It's the breaking of the will, the breaking of the psyche.
Speaker 3: And I'm glad that you recognized and identified it as that,
Speaker 3: because that's exactly what it is. It's no different from
Speaker 3: the mental torture that you put someone and tonam Obay through.
Speaker 3: It's no different from torture that you put someone through
Speaker 3: in Vietnam. So you're absolutely right because the tactics are.
Speaker 2: The same, you know, the objectives are the same.
Speaker 3: The objectives are definitely the same, just different people.
Speaker 2: And the facts. The facts can just be collateral damage.
Speaker 2: The facts are unfortunately at the time.
Speaker 3: The purpose is to be able to find a person,
Speaker 3: to accuse them and charge them with the crime. So
Speaker 3: so your day can be over with.
Speaker 2: I just want to remind you here, Carl is only
Speaker 2: seventeen years old at the time when all this is
Speaker 2: going down. The police interrogate him all day, like ten
Speaker 2: or twelve hours straight trying to get him to confess.
Speaker 3: So just going through that process hours on in, hours
Speaker 3: on in.
Speaker 2: To where right you just want to end it.
Speaker 3: It's just like, hey, you know what, well, we want
Speaker 3: you to sign this. If you don't, there in this
Speaker 3: process will happen again. I couldn't tell you of the
Speaker 3: fear that I probably that I felt at that time.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's a very sterile picture, but the
Speaker 2: reality is those interrogation rooms are full of blood, spit urine.
Speaker 2: It is they are final.
Speaker 3: Language on the walls saying hey the.
Speaker 2: Right, they're hot, they're you know. They are literally stuffed
Speaker 2: with the energy of the people that were in there
Speaker 2: just a few moments before you and you can end
Speaker 2: this process if you signed this statement.
Speaker 3: As naive as I was. I did think that.
Speaker 2: The sense of relief, what's their sense of relief? Though
Speaker 2: after the flame.
Speaker 3: I think that some of my anxiety kind of went
Speaker 3: away because of I didn't see them anymore, not knowing
Speaker 3: that this has this affected my entire life.
Speaker 2: At nine o'clock that evening, Assistant state's attorney Nicholas Grapsaz
Speaker 2: wrote a handwritten confession for Carl. The statement said that
Speaker 2: he was in Anthony Brown's car when Carl and four
Speaker 2: other co defendants saw the victim Chevy Blazer at the
Speaker 2: gas station and then decided to hijacket, strip it and
Speaker 2: sell the parts and split the money. The statement said
Speaker 2: that Karl was on the lookout while the hijacking took place,
Speaker 2: and that he was in Brown's car watching while Brown
Speaker 2: raped Forelicia Lewis. They then allegedly returned Lewis to the
Speaker 2: blazer and demanded money. The statement said that afterwards all
Speaker 2: five co defendants met up and Scott Chambers told them
Speaker 2: they shot the victims and then Carl received thirty dollars
Speaker 2: as a share of the hijacking money. After being subject
Speaker 2: to torture and relentless pressure here from the police, Carl
Speaker 2: Williams signed this false confession sealing his faith.
Speaker 3: During that time, I was still in a state of confusion.
Speaker 3: I was still very hurt. I was also struggling in
Speaker 3: terms of defending myself here. I was, you know, early on,
Speaker 3: you're giving a PD who's not putting forth an effort
Speaker 3: to be able to actually highlight your innocence, but just
Speaker 3: shuffle you along to people to the next case. I
Speaker 3: was still you know, you hear stuff like this when
Speaker 3: the judge is a law judge, and this judge will
Speaker 3: see right through the police's nonsense and then they'll bring
Speaker 3: your relief. Well, I actually hope that would be for me.
Speaker 2: That hurts that that's like the loss of innocence right there,
Speaker 2: when we learn of what a freaking fairy tale that
Speaker 2: one is right.
Speaker 3: Correct until and listen, let me go back just a
Speaker 3: little bit. The first time when I'm arraigned in front
Speaker 3: of the judge, my co defendants says still that I
Speaker 3: wasn't involved in the case, that they have the wrong person.
Speaker 2: This is a raiment.
Speaker 3: Yes, you would think that at some point there was
Speaker 3: want to be an investigation. This is a continuing theme.
Speaker 2: The fair Belt right now.
Speaker 3: But I'm things. I continued to move forward at a
Speaker 3: very rapid, fast paced and.
Speaker 2: No one cares. So what actual evidence like was would
Speaker 2: what evidence did the state present? And what's your side?
Speaker 3: The statement? That's it? No co defendants to come testify.
Speaker 3: No one testify against me. The co defendant who decided
Speaker 3: to testify against another, the co defendant refused to testify
Speaker 3: against me because he said to them that you don't
Speaker 3: know I was innocent and wasn't involved in the case.
Speaker 2: As a practice in jail house lawyer for twenty three
Speaker 2: years since stay Field, I've seen this way too much.
Speaker 2: Public defenders are often referred to in prison as public
Speaker 2: pretenders because they often dropped the ball. It happens more
Speaker 2: often than the general public has any idea of. And
Speaker 2: in this case, the public defender failed to get any
Speaker 2: exculpatory evidence to help free his client.
Speaker 3: The lawyer never went to witnesses. So that was a
Speaker 3: witness in the case. And at that time, who was
Speaker 3: coming to court for me and who was daring the
Speaker 3: audience in terms of my alibi every time.
Speaker 2: I had a court date, and they just don't talk
Speaker 2: to him.
Speaker 3: And they never talked, and they never spoke to him.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, we'll get I've seen it. I trust me,
Speaker 2: I've seen it. As a jail house lawyer, you already
Speaker 2: know right that you know, not knocking lawyers.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: However, when we're sitting inside and we're filing these complaints
Speaker 2: to the Attorney Registration Disciplinary Commission, another lawyer answers them right,
Speaker 2: And basically all these claims are basically all same as
Speaker 2: far as failures to reach out to get witnesses, failure
Speaker 2: to investigate, failures to secure evidence right maybe video surveillance
Speaker 2: to whatever, failure to get an expert to challenge any evidence.
Speaker 2: But here it is all a gap for you is
Speaker 2: a confession. You would think that he might have stepped
Speaker 2: up and did more.
Speaker 3: No physical evidence, no, no, nothing to connect me to
Speaker 3: the crime whatsoever.
Speaker 2: The jury deliberated for several days and eventually came to
Speaker 2: the conclusion that Carl Williams was guilty a first degree murder.
Speaker 4: Carl was convicted because of his you know, the so
Speaker 4: called confession, the statement that was the only evidence. And
Speaker 4: I think the police knew that they didn't have any evidence.
Speaker 4: That's why they beat you.
Speaker 3: That's why they.
Speaker 1: Used all that.
Speaker 4: They need something. The only way they're closing this case
Speaker 4: against Carl Williams is if you confess, So they made
Speaker 4: sure to get a confession, correct, That's how they you convicted.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean from the second I met Carl,
Speaker 4: I knew he's innocent. I still believe he's innocent, no
Speaker 4: doubt about it.
Speaker 2: The way I kind of like look at is like
Speaker 2: you know, there's Zamboni machine that the thing, right, it's
Speaker 2: like a slow like it's just running you over slow motion, right,
Speaker 2: And you're just getting to this process where you know
Speaker 2: you're being run over by the system and you can't
Speaker 2: do it. You just can't do anything about it because
Speaker 2: a lot of times if the council does not do
Speaker 2: the work, the judge does not sue a sponte on
Speaker 2: his own. Russ, Hey, I call Radishes, right. The prosecutor
Speaker 2: is just here for the slam dunk, right, So now
Speaker 2: you you get found guilty. What is this like for myself?
Speaker 2: I just I don't even remember how I got back
Speaker 2: to my decked What is your processing?
Speaker 3: I cried the entire way. I can remember walking back
Speaker 3: and asking them to speak to a counselor because my
Speaker 3: mind couldn't function. My mind couldn't tell you, I couldn't
Speaker 3: even figure out where I was at at the time.
Speaker 3: And I'm getting emotional about it now because I'm thinking
Speaker 3: about my young self at that time trying to walk
Speaker 3: through that tunnel.
Speaker 2: And you know, you can't protect that.
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying. And you walk through that
Speaker 3: tunnel and you're and you're thinking to yourself, they just
Speaker 3: took my life. How could you reconcile with with that?
Speaker 3: When you when you believed in something, you believed in
Speaker 3: something more importantly that you trusted in the process, and
Speaker 3: then the process fails you. I sat by myself on
Speaker 3: that deck. I can remember just being in a room
Speaker 3: for days and people coming to check on me because
Speaker 3: they was afraid that, hey, you know, try to harm himself.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, and you know, but immediately immediately my mom.
Speaker 3: You know, my mom. May she rest in peace now,
Speaker 3: you know. She passed away this year from COVID on
Speaker 3: January the second. I can remember her calling one of
Speaker 3: my friends who was on that deck with me, and
Speaker 3: he's like, man, your mom's saying, call her, call her.
Speaker 3: And I called her and she says, you know, I
Speaker 3: can't imagine what you're going through. My heart is broken.
Speaker 3: But we need to get focused real quick. What is
Speaker 3: it that we need to do to fight for your life.
Speaker 3: I just started to go and write letters immediately. That's
Speaker 3: where it all began for me. From nineteen ninety four,
Speaker 3: I never stopped writing letters asking for help. I've probably
Speaker 3: sent out over four thousand letters.
Speaker 2: Good God, I actually sent so many letters out.
Speaker 3: To send one hundred letters out in the bars.
Speaker 2: Free for those who don't know, is free for those
Speaker 2: that don't know. Stateville Prison lost a lawsuit in part of
Speaker 2: an agreement was they had to send all of our
Speaker 2: legal mail out and.
Speaker 3: We would take full of vengel. I would put them
Speaker 3: in colorful envelopes. I would put them in peppermint looking envelopes,
Speaker 3: pink envelopes, green envelopes, just to make them try to
Speaker 3: stand out. And you name them. I wrote them. I said,
Speaker 3: do you know do you know anyone who would be
Speaker 3: interested in looking into a role for conviction. I've written
Speaker 3: many letters, I've written many people. And Mike responded, and
Speaker 3: that changed the narrative for me.
Speaker 2: That Mike is his lawyer, Michael Scalar, who took on
Speaker 2: the case pro bono on twenty oh seven. Before Mike
Speaker 2: got involved in the case. Carl had already filed two
Speaker 2: postconviction petitions and both were denied. Together they filed two
Speaker 2: more petitions.
Speaker 3: He started working on the case and he said, Carl,
Speaker 3: I believe you're innocent, but this is going to be
Speaker 3: an upheel battle.
Speaker 2: I just want to interject, right, because this is this
Speaker 2: is the turnaround, right, So you're thrown down this deep
Speaker 2: dark well, right, that's basically what it is. It's like
Speaker 2: a state Bville. It's like a little like a little hell,
Speaker 2: and time is frozen.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: You have the same people reciting the same rap song
Speaker 2: that they reciting when they got locked up, right, So
Speaker 2: you're in this like this pocket universe of hell, and
Speaker 2: everything is going against you to prevent you from getting
Speaker 2: to that law library, right, getting copies, right, having any
Speaker 2: piece to read your case. Right. However, the hope comes
Speaker 2: because you see other people getting out, right, So me
Speaker 2: and you we got your witness several people, so that
Speaker 2: gives you hope, right, like even right now, like I
Speaker 2: really feel like the exhilaration. Like one day we're going
Speaker 2: to child Hall and talking to Babystone. Right next day
Speaker 2: Babystone is out. The next day Babystone is on sixty minutes.
Speaker 2: That is a hell of a message to us.
Speaker 3: It is, and it's very encouraging, and it's very supportive
Speaker 3: in terms of your spirit, your energy, and your peace,
Speaker 3: and your effort to continue to push for and drive
Speaker 3: the narrative of your innocence.
Speaker 2: And when we get the lawyers right, because we know
Speaker 2: pro say gets no play. Once we get the lawyers right,
Speaker 2: it gives us such a shot in the arm. I
Speaker 2: look at it very much like I sent my words
Speaker 2: out to fight for me, and over time, other people
Speaker 2: added their words to fight for.
Speaker 4: Me, and.
Speaker 2: Soon it becomes an undeniable, undeniable force, and it literally
Speaker 2: sets us free.
Speaker 4: Long before I was ever even involved, Mike had done
Speaker 4: a ton of investigation and gotten affidavits from the co
Speaker 4: defendants from a number of people attesting to Carl's innocence. Meanwhile,
Speaker 4: there's a Supreme Court case called Miller versus Alabama that
Speaker 4: was decided which talks about how it can be unconstitutional
Speaker 4: to give life sentences or de facto life sentences to juveniles.
Speaker 4: Carl falls into that category, so they file another post
Speaker 4: conviction petition raising that issue separately. The judge dismissed both
Speaker 4: of them and went up on appeal and Mike and
Speaker 4: his team won the appeal sent it back to the
Speaker 4: trial court to have a hearing on these issues. That's
Speaker 4: the point at which I got involved, was getting ready
Speaker 4: to have that hearing.
Speaker 2: Und leg popular opinion is very weighty on lawyers as
Speaker 2: far as you know, a lot of people give you
Speaker 2: like jeers for helping prisoners. As far as yourself and
Speaker 2: going into this process, what were some of the challenges.
Speaker 4: I think one of the hardest parts about these cases
Speaker 4: in general is just how old they are, and like,
Speaker 4: it's terrible for you guys who were in prison for
Speaker 4: what was it, twenty four years, twenty six years, but
Speaker 4: during that time, memories fade, witnesses die, witnesses move, and
Speaker 4: so we're trying to piece back together something that happened
Speaker 4: a very long time ago, involving people who have moved
Speaker 4: on with their lives and want nothing to do with you.
Speaker 4: So I think that tends to be one of the
Speaker 4: bigger challenges with all of these cases is that we're
Speaker 4: not the place. We can't show up with a badge
Speaker 4: and say you need to talk to us, So you're
Speaker 4: just trying to convince people that you're worth their time.
Speaker 4: So I think just the passage of time and the
Speaker 4: lack of any real power makes it really hard to
Speaker 4: sort of reinvestigate these types of cases. Our goal is
Speaker 4: to get Carl Holme, and the way we were able
Speaker 4: to get him home the quickest was to reach an
Speaker 4: agreement with the state about the Miller claim the juvenile
Speaker 4: life without parole claim. Agreed to a sentence, and we
Speaker 4: did a sentencing hearing instead of doing an evidentiary hearing,
Speaker 4: and convinced the judge to impose a sentence that got
Speaker 4: Carl Holm pretty quickly after that.
Speaker 2: A lot of people don't really realize how long it
Speaker 2: takes for a post conviction petition to matriculate through the
Speaker 2: circuit courts. The whole process in this case was definitely
Speaker 2: not quick. In twenty twelve, and appellate court ruled that
Speaker 2: he was entitled to a new evidentiary hearing and if
Speaker 2: he were denied a new trial after that, he should
Speaker 2: at least deserve a new sentence based on the president
Speaker 2: set by Miller versus Alabama.
Speaker 3: It always was one thing after another and saying, oh, well,
Speaker 3: we're looking, we're waiting on these documents, or I didn't
Speaker 3: read this or she would give me these long continuances.
Speaker 3: So it went on and on and on, and it
Speaker 3: dragged out from November of twenty twelve all the way
Speaker 3: to August of twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: Now this one one ten years. Do you see or
Speaker 2: do you believe that this using time as a weapon.
Speaker 3: It is a household it's being used as a weapon
Speaker 3: because it wears you. Now imagine the psychological effects that
Speaker 3: that has upon you. You're going to court or you're
Speaker 3: having a court date, and then it's another continuous.
Speaker 4: I think thinking about how much time went by there,
Speaker 4: and I think you're absolutely right that there is a
Speaker 4: strategic reason for the state to delay things and things
Speaker 4: like that. I think also, and this is much more depressing,
Speaker 4: is that the delays I don't think are necessarily because
Speaker 4: this is the way we're going to win the case.
Speaker 4: I think a lot of the times delays are you
Speaker 4: guys don't matter.
Speaker 3: And it's very true.
Speaker 4: There are more important things for these judges to be
Speaker 4: working on. There's more important things for the prosecutors to
Speaker 4: be working on. These guys were convicted, they don't matter.
Speaker 2: Kyle was released from prison in twenty twenty, but not
Speaker 2: based on his innocence, but because of the new sentence
Speaker 2: that was imposed, it's a chance to get out, but
Speaker 2: it also means you won't officially be exonerated, and that's
Speaker 2: a very heavy cross to carry for someone who's actually innocent.
Speaker 3: For me, it was very bittersweet. It's something that I
Speaker 3: was like, you know, I didn't want to do, but
Speaker 3: was forced to do. I wasn't gonna die in somebody's prison.
Speaker 3: My mom was older. I lost the son.
Speaker 4: It's one of the things that I that I kicked
Speaker 4: myself over and have gone back over if there's anything
Speaker 4: I could have done to make this go faster. Because
Speaker 4: your son died right before you got out, I've gone
Speaker 4: back over it and wondered, is there any place I
Speaker 4: could have made this go a month faster or something
Speaker 4: like that. I am beyond grateful that you were home
Speaker 4: to be with your mom, but your the fact that
Speaker 4: your son died right before you got out, and.
Speaker 3: I want to just make this clear, not that he
Speaker 3: died as if he died from natural causes, he was
Speaker 3: murdered in broad daylight.
Speaker 2: I need to touch on this. How many times did
Speaker 2: you see guys our age lose sons to the streets
Speaker 2: while we were inside.
Speaker 3: Oh man, I lost count I probably I know about
Speaker 3: forty people who's probably lost the son.
Speaker 2: The father's not there, were locked up, right. The mother
Speaker 2: is doing her best.
Speaker 3: Is putting the culture effort, but.
Speaker 2: The culture is drawing them out. The culture is drawing
Speaker 2: them out.
Speaker 3: That is very true. The culture is definitely drawing them out,
Speaker 3: reshaping their frame of mind, changing their free features. It's
Speaker 3: really hard for them to give grass, absolutely.
Speaker 2: Because it's like speaking a foreign language.
Speaker 3: It is. And you're still trying to be a father
Speaker 3: and a parent from from prison, which you know you
Speaker 3: wish there was a such thing.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, I literally like hashtag Confessions of a
Speaker 2: jail Daddy. It's an oxymoron. You're in jail. You can
Speaker 2: write all the letters and all the money, but the
Speaker 2: culture is still going to get a hold to our children.
Speaker 3: It is. But in returning back into society, you know,
Speaker 3: I've tooken every educational course that I possibly could in
Speaker 3: that prison, only because I've always seen a better future
Speaker 3: and an opportunity for me upon my return. So in
Speaker 3: the name of my son, in the name of myself,
Speaker 3: I was definitely going to upon my return, whatever day
Speaker 3: that was going to be. I was going to do
Speaker 3: something and make something better of myself and highlight it,
Speaker 3: to do better in the community that I grew up in.
Speaker 2: Redemption Redemption song.
Speaker 3: I feel like I have been taking that journey. I
Speaker 3: feel like I have been walking that journey with the
Speaker 3: work that I've been doing. I now teach kids in
Speaker 3: the neighborhood who fathers were incarcerated or who mothers were incarcerated.
Speaker 3: I teach them carpentry. I own a furniture business as
Speaker 3: building custom cabinets as well as selling furniture and supply.
Speaker 2: This is Royal Man Solutions.
Speaker 3: And you can find that on Royalmansolutions dot com. And
Speaker 3: one of the things that I do is that I
Speaker 3: take some of these kids from the community, take them
Speaker 3: on deliveries with me, and I pay them. It's it's
Speaker 3: an opportunity for them to learn the trade and the craft,
Speaker 3: but also learn the experience of working a job to
Speaker 3: be able to provide for themselves today, tomorrow, in in
Speaker 3: the future.
Speaker 2: I think it's really beautiful how he's carrying on with
Speaker 2: his life without the bitterness and the baggage. He's very
Speaker 2: much a radiant soul. He's given back to his community
Speaker 2: and we'll have links to Carl's work in the bile
Speaker 2: so you can flood him with love there. And now
Speaker 2: we'll go to closing part of our show. I want
Speaker 2: to thank the listeners for having me as your guest host,
Speaker 2: and of course thanks to the two Carls, Carl Williams
Speaker 2: for allowing me the honor to tell this story and
Speaker 2: Carl Leonard for his work on behalf of the Wrongfully Convicted.
Speaker 2: This last bit of the show we call closing arguments.
Speaker 2: I'm going to step away from the mic and let
Speaker 2: Carl and Carl have the last words.
Speaker 4: The way to avoid wrongful convictions in the first place,
Speaker 4: the way to fix the wrongful convictions that we have
Speaker 4: is for the people who are listening to the program
Speaker 4: to vote. Vote for prosecutors who are going to change
Speaker 4: the way these offices work. Vote for mayors who are
Speaker 4: going to appoint police chis who are going to change
Speaker 4: the way police departments work. It's a slow process. It
Speaker 4: doesn't help people like Carl, but hopefully it helps prevent
Speaker 4: more people like Carl. It get the people out who
Speaker 4: are locked up wrongfully, stop sending the wrong people to prison.
Speaker 4: And I think the only way that we can do
Speaker 4: that is to vote for better leaders.
Speaker 3: I certainly agree. I'm reaching out to different legislators making
Speaker 3: an argument about how the narrative surrounding wrongful convictions needs
Speaker 3: to change. How there need to be a calling for
Speaker 3: people being held responsible for allowing wrongful convictions and knowingly
Speaker 3: committing crimes with prosecutor and misconduct with police brutality where
Speaker 3: there be charges brought against them because they're crimes. If
Speaker 3: I committed the crime, you will bring your charge against me.
Speaker 3: It shouldn't be no difference. The other thing is is
Speaker 3: that I thank y'all for being able to tell the
Speaker 3: stories of those who are wrongfully convicted. This allows an
Speaker 3: audience to hear the story, make a decision, and hopefully
Speaker 3: be active to change the narrative as well. It's important
Speaker 3: to inform the public so they can definitely be involved
Speaker 3: and get involved. It makes them more capable, more able,
Speaker 3: and more fit in terms of serving to change the
Speaker 3: narrative about wrongful convictions.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I like to
Speaker 2: thank our executive producers Jason Flem and Kevin Wadis. The
Speaker 2: senior producer for this episode is Jackie Polly and our
Speaker 2: producers are Lela Robinson, Conner Hall and Jeff Clive Barne.
Speaker 2: Our editor is Roxander Gweedy and special thanks to jillianforced
Speaker 2: That for help on this episode. The music and this
Speaker 2: productions by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 3: Be sure to.
Speaker 2: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as
Speaker 2: well as Lava for Good. On all three platforms. You
Speaker 2: can also follow me on Facebook and Instagram at free
Speaker 2: Patrick Pursley at imkid Culture two and online at imkidculture
Speaker 2: dot org. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for
Speaker 2: Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one.
Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wronfel Conviction,
Speaker 1: Patrick Persley will interview Eric Blackman, a fellow Xgnery and
Speaker 1: someone he knew well inside prison. They're going to talk
Speaker 1: about the toxic criminal justice system in nineteen ninety Chicago
Speaker 1: and how Eric ended up in prison for a crime
Speaker 1: he didn't commit. I mean, he couldn't have committed it.
Speaker 1: The guy had dozens, literally dozens of alibi witnesses. Now, Patrick,
Speaker 1: by the way, is someone I mean, this guy is
Speaker 1: such an incredible human. During his almost three decades wrongfully
Speaker 1: convicted in some of the most dangerous and deadly prisons
Speaker 1: in America, he somehow figured out how to change the
Speaker 1: law that allowed for the evidence in his case to
Speaker 1: be tested, which ultimately proved his innocence and led to
Speaker 1: his exoneration. So this is going to be an incredible conversation.
Speaker 1: Listen next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed