WEBVTT - #290 Guest Host Patrick Pursley with Carl Williams 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.640 I'm Jason Flamm, host of wrongful conviction. Over the years, 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:06.960 hundreds of exanneries have told me their stories. Sadly, with 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:09.159 the state of our criminal legal system, we're left with 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.680 far more cases than I can possibly handle alone. So 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:15.600 I've asked some exuneries to handle some of these cases, 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:18.920 bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:23.360 only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:25.239 is one of those interviews. 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:32.400 In the early morning hours of January thirteenth, nineteen ninety four, 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.599 Stephen Fitch, Reginald Wilson, and Felicia Lewis were in Chicago 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.920 driving in Wilson's car. They stopped at a gas station 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:43.160 so the two men could use the restroom. When Fitch 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.199 walked back to the car, he saw two men hijacking it, 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.640 one driving and another in the back with Wilson and Lewis. 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.440 Fitch ran across the street and called the police to 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.600 report the car jacket. Later that day, the frozen bodies 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.000 of twenty three year old Illinois state basketball star Wars 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.400 Reginald Wilson, and his twenty year old girlfriend, Felicia Lewis, 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:07.600 were discovered in a large garbage band in Chicago. Both 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:12.240 had sustained multiple gunshot wounds. The stolen car was found 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:16.200 idling in a nearby town after a chase. Two of 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.679 the carjackers were identified as Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamlet. 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:23.160 They were interviewed and admitted their involvements in the crime. 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:28.480 They also named three more accomplices, including a guy named Carl. 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:31.480 Through their investigation, the police were led. 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:32.400 To Carl Williams. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.800 The co defendants repeatedly said that Carl Williams wasn't involved 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:39.880 and there was no physical evidence linking him to the 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:45.360 carjacking and murders, but with a forced false confession, Carl 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:47.960 Williams was found guilty of a crime he did not 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:53.160 commit and was sentenced to natural life in prison. This 0:01:53.600 --> 0:02:05.560 is wrongful conviction. My name is Patrick Persley, also known 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:09.320 as Free Patrick Pursley. I was previously a guest on 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:13.160 wrongful conviction as an axignery, but today I'm honored to 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.239 be your guest host. It is a true privilege. We'll 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:21.000 be talking to two people two Carl's actually attorney Carl Leonard, 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:25.239 and my good friend and brother Karl Williams. This interview 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.760 was recorded in April twenty twenty two. But Karl and 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.440 I have known each other for a long time. We 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.720 were at Staville Prison together where we both spent countless 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:39.360 hours in the law library. We probably did what how 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:40.840 many years you think we did together? 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:49.520 Oh man, at least how many years you was in Stateville? 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:50.440 Just twenty three? 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:55.320 Yeah, he's just twenty three, and then I was there 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:59.519 about twenty three years, So at least twenty twenty three year. 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:00.000 A couple decades. 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:01.160 Yes, that's what you. 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.480 Hail from Cook County, Chicago. 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.919 I do rais Chicago born and raised. 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:09.680 What's that time? 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:12.400 What they call the lower end? 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:13.839 The low end got hell of a rep. 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:15.720 The low end definitely has a hell of a rep. 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.600 But I think that the lower end gets an unfair rep. 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:20.960 Well, well I don't even think it exists no more. 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.200 It's so it was so bad they knocked the buildings down. 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.720 Then they definitely knocked the buildings down. But the spirit 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:29.360 and the people are still in that community, serving that 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:33.200 community in a more productive and positive ways. 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:38.800 Yeah, that's a beautiful thing. So going forward, right, like 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:44.480 you catch this just this horrific, horrific case. It's a 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:48.000 very heavy story, right, it's a very so you had 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.320 to carry this. Can you like start us like at 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.360 the beginning, what like what took place? 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:56.440 So me growing up in that community, it was a 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.080 community like I said that I love, that, I value 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.920 that I appreciate, and at the same time, I also 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:05.640 made some wrong decisions in that community. I come from 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.680 street hustling, which allowed me to be able to gain 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:13.360 material wealth. And you know how this operate in those communities. 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:15.800 You gotta eat very true. 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:21.640 It brings it brings a long attention. No society good 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:26.760 in terms of girls and things. Oh we're talking about 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.719 starting from the age of like fifteen years old. And 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.320 what it does is it brings you a ton of attention. 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.520 Everybody knows your name, everybody wants to be connected to you. 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:40.760 A few months after Carl's seventeenth birthday, a terrible crime 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:44.679 happened in his neighborhood. Here's attorney Carl Leonard who worked 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:45.559 on Carl's case. 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:50.719 The evidence that the state collected was that there was 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:57.719 carjacking confrontation at a gas station in Chicago. To individuals 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:03.599 were kidnapped during the carjack, brought to another location. The 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:07.800 woman was actually assaulted, and both of them ended up 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.760 murdered and in a dumpster, and there were some items 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.800 that were stolen from the vehicle, and the state alleged 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:17.160 that those items were divvied up among the offenders. 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:19.599 The other person who had been in the car with 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.719 the victims saw the carjacking and called the police. The 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.880 police tracked down the vehicle in nearby town. They arrested 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.159 two people running from it, Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamlin, 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.479 who were both later convicted of the crime. Chambers and 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.080 Hamlin then provided the police with three more names, so 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:40.920 Rhice Johnson, Anthony Brown, and a guy named Carl. They 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.560 didn't give his last name, just Carl. It's really rare 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:46.920 to have this mini co defendants and it's a lot 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:48.280 to sort through, right. 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.560 This is a case that involves a lot of offenders 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:54.600 and the police are obviously investigating. Their sort of big 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.760 break is when they find the vehicle, which they had 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:02.680 brought to a south suburb side Chicago, and that's how 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:06.520 they made the initial arrests of who would become some 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.320 of Carl's co defendants. There's an individual with them who 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.719 does not end up becoming a co defendant, but who 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.520 is the first one to sort of start talking and 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.479 they he just starts saying names of people who were involved, 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.440 gives the first name Carl. They decide that Carl Williams 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:26.080 is the car that this person's referring to the. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.080 Name Carl came up being involved in his brutal cry. 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.880 So with that name be coming up, then who was 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.520 the most popular Carl in that area at that time? 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:41.479 It was me based off the fact of the street 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:46.239 hustling and the things that brought me the unworted attention. Now, 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:50.479 the description that they was given of this Carl was six' 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:54.760 one to sixty three with your clow hair, light skinned, 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:57.880 full beard. I mean I was just a young kid 0:06:57.880 --> 0:06:59.159 who barely can still grow. 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:00.839 A beard to this day, about five to seven. 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.680 I mean, well not quite five seven, but I mean 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:04.479 I'm about five. 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:06.520 Right, But you don't match the description skin tone or 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:07.080 height or. 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.479 I was five to seven at that time, stocky, bild, 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.120 short hair, never had long hair. The description definitely didn't 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:13.520 fit me. 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.440 The police showed up at the home of Erica Wells, 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:20.120 Carl's girlfriend at the time. The person that answered the 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.920 door told the police that Karl was upstairs. The police 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:26.560 entered the home and immediately got rough. 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.160 With him, taking me and throwing me onto the floor, 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.440 slamming me onto the floor, grabbing me by the neck, 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.680 putting the gun to my head, threatening to shoot me 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:37.560 and to kill me if I move. 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.080 A lot of people don't really realize how like the 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.920 tailor to Americas, like the treatment in the door. 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:45.640 They absolutely so. 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:49.360 It is so camped. The violations as far as what 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:52.920 they would call civil rights violations. Corrects, like we basically 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:57.119 have no civil rights and at all. 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:02.480 When you're at that point and feeling that and understanding 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:04.880 it feels like it takes some of your power away. 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:06.720 You're powerless in that moment. 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:11.920 Correct. And they take me downstairs and I have on 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:17.200 nothing but my underwear, no other clothes on whatsoever. And 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.440 I'm study consistently asking and what's going on. The people 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:22.600 in the house are asking and what's going on. They 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:29.240 take me out in handcuffs. Now it's January, before you 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.280 know how cold Chicago could be. To go outside and 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:33.920 to step outside in the code. 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.400 It's a form of torture of itself. 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.840 But when you think about it today, is it was 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:41.960 a deliberate. 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:42.800 Process of course. 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.440 So I ask you the trauma that you have already 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:49.080 experienced from from the moment that they into the house 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.040 to accuse you of a crime that you didn't commit. 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.640 So the person they take me outside with the handcuffs 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.680 on and just I guess for him to identify me. 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.839 Now they're saying that he's identifying me, and I need 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:05.560 to go down to the station. And this is where 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:12.760 the rest of the trauma begins. You can feel the butterflies, 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:16.119 you can feel the nervousness, you can feel the anxiety 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:18.680 because of what just happened to you. So there's still 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.360 trauma that's continuing to follow you and walk with you 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:23.760 through the same path that they're taking you on, which 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.600 is a brutal path. So in them presenting you in 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.040 that way, having you handcuff holding you by your arm 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.559 and just jaking open the door and pushing you there 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.319 and say and the person is it's such a stand. 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:43.679 You know this person at least like nah, And they 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:45.560 all go and when you go to every room and 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:49.640 they say no, it's like, oh man, I've told you, 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:53.440 but you don't understand that at the time. They put 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:55.160 you back in that room and you're you know, and 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.000 you're like, oh man, you know that was that? That 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:02.160 was it? But then our star to go by, or 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.720 you don't know how much time going by because there's 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.400 no clock, and you're like, why am I still here? 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.120 Then you see one of your co defenders come to you. 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.960 They bring him back to you, and he still says no, 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.360 But then they bring him back within the thirty minute 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:25.400 or within the hour time frame, and now he's crying, 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.520 and you know, and and look what's happened to him? 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:34.800 And then he says, They ask him again and he says, yeah. 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:40.160 Now you you know it's it's a concern and a worry. 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:43.679 Is that starting to lose your grasp on reality? 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:47.920 And imagine I couldn't explain to you that feeling. 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:54.600 Now, can we just be clear, because it's not it's torture. 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.240 It's the breaking of the will, the breaking of the psyche. 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:02.000 And I'm glad that you recognized and identified it as that, 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.840 because that's exactly what it is. It's no different from 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:09.920 the mental torture that you put someone and tonam Obay through. 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.640 It's no different from torture that you put someone through 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:16.920 in Vietnam. So you're absolutely right because the tactics are. 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:19.640 The same, you know, the objectives are the same. 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:22.559 The objectives are definitely the same, just different people. 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.360 And the facts. The facts can just be collateral damage. 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.280 The facts are unfortunately at the time. 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:33.000 The purpose is to be able to find a person, 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:37.000 to accuse them and charge them with the crime. So 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:38.240 so your day can be over with. 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:43.680 I just want to remind you here, Carl is only 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:45.880 seventeen years old at the time when all this is 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.680 going down. The police interrogate him all day, like ten 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.280 or twelve hours straight trying to get him to confess. 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.520 So just going through that process hours on in, hours 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:56.920 on in. 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.640 To where right you just want to end it. 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:04.280 It's just like, hey, you know what, well, we want 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.560 you to sign this. If you don't, there in this 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.560 process will happen again. I couldn't tell you of the 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.000 fear that I probably that I felt at that time. 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.080 Well, I mean it's a very sterile picture, but the 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.839 reality is those interrogation rooms are full of blood, spit urine. 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.520 It is they are final. 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.240 Language on the walls saying hey the. 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:32.120 Right, they're hot, they're you know. They are literally stuffed 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.840 with the energy of the people that were in there 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:39.839 just a few moments before you and you can end 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.920 this process if you signed this statement. 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.200 As naive as I was. I did think that. 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:48.840 The sense of relief, what's their sense of relief? Though 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:49.760 after the flame. 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:53.640 I think that some of my anxiety kind of went 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:58.160 away because of I didn't see them anymore, not knowing 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:07.960 that this has this affected my entire life. 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:13.840 At nine o'clock that evening, Assistant state's attorney Nicholas Grapsaz 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.480 wrote a handwritten confession for Carl. The statement said that 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:21.040 he was in Anthony Brown's car when Carl and four 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.360 other co defendants saw the victim Chevy Blazer at the 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.880 gas station and then decided to hijacket, strip it and 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:30.840 sell the parts and split the money. The statement said 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.920 that Karl was on the lookout while the hijacking took place, 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.960 and that he was in Brown's car watching while Brown 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:42.240 raped Forelicia Lewis. They then allegedly returned Lewis to the 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:46.800 blazer and demanded money. The statement said that afterwards all 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.920 five co defendants met up and Scott Chambers told them 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.560 they shot the victims and then Carl received thirty dollars 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.400 as a share of the hijacking money. After being subject 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.760 to torture and relentless pressure here from the police, Carl 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.640 Williams signed this false confession sealing his faith. 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:10.600 During that time, I was still in a state of confusion. 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:15.200 I was still very hurt. I was also struggling in 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:19.400 terms of defending myself here. I was, you know, early on, 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:23.560 you're giving a PD who's not putting forth an effort 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:30.000 to be able to actually highlight your innocence, but just 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.920 shuffle you along to people to the next case. I 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.160 was still you know, you hear stuff like this when 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:38.960 the judge is a law judge, and this judge will 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.600 see right through the police's nonsense and then they'll bring 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:46.280 your relief. Well, I actually hope that would be for me. 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.320 That hurts that that's like the loss of innocence right there, 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.920 when we learn of what a freaking fairy tale that 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:53.840 one is right. 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:57.560 Correct until and listen, let me go back just a 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.280 little bit. The first time when I'm arraigned in front 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:06.400 of the judge, my co defendants says still that I 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.040 wasn't involved in the case, that they have the wrong person. 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:10.080 This is a raiment. 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.840 Yes, you would think that at some point there was 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.960 want to be an investigation. This is a continuing theme. 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:20.200 The fair Belt right now. 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:24.480 But I'm things. I continued to move forward at a 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:30.760 very rapid, fast paced and. 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.720 No one cares. So what actual evidence like was would 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.640 what evidence did the state present? And what's your side? 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.760 The statement? That's it? No co defendants to come testify. 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.560 No one testify against me. The co defendant who decided 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:47.200 to testify against another, the co defendant refused to testify 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:51.200 against me because he said to them that you don't 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.320 know I was innocent and wasn't involved in the case. 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.080 As a practice in jail house lawyer for twenty three 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.520 years since stay Field, I've seen this way too much. 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.720 Public defenders are often referred to in prison as public 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:09.120 pretenders because they often dropped the ball. It happens more 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:13.240 often than the general public has any idea of. And 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:17.520 in this case, the public defender failed to get any 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.680 exculpatory evidence to help free his client. 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:26.680 The lawyer never went to witnesses. So that was a 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.040 witness in the case. And at that time, who was 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:31.360 coming to court for me and who was daring the 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.960 audience in terms of my alibi every time. 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:36.640 I had a court date, and they just don't talk 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:37.200 to him. 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:39.480 And they never talked, and they never spoke to him. 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.760 Oh, yeah, we'll get I've seen it. I trust me, 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.600 I've seen it. As a jail house lawyer, you already 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:48.600 know right that you know, not knocking lawyers. 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:49.080 Right. 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.080 However, when we're sitting inside and we're filing these complaints 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:58.280 to the Attorney Registration Disciplinary Commission, another lawyer answers them right, 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.520 And basically all these claims are basically all same as 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.119 far as failures to reach out to get witnesses, failure 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:09.840 to investigate, failures to secure evidence right maybe video surveillance 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.920 to whatever, failure to get an expert to challenge any evidence. 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.080 But here it is all a gap for you is 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:21.399 a confession. You would think that he might have stepped 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:22.639 up and did more. 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:27.480 No physical evidence, no, no, nothing to connect me to 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:28.480 the crime whatsoever. 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.879 The jury deliberated for several days and eventually came to 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:38.440 the conclusion that Carl Williams was guilty a first degree murder. 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.400 Carl was convicted because of his you know, the so 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.520 called confession, the statement that was the only evidence. And 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.400 I think the police knew that they didn't have any evidence. 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:49.639 That's why they beat you. 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:50.920 That's why they. 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:52.240 Used all that. 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.480 They need something. The only way they're closing this case 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.080 against Carl Williams is if you confess, So they made 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.640 sure to get a confession, correct, That's how they you convicted. 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:02.680 But yeah, I mean from the second I met Carl, 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.480 I knew he's innocent. I still believe he's innocent, no 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:06.080 doubt about it. 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:08.439 The way I kind of like look at is like 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:12.680 you know, there's Zamboni machine that the thing, right, it's 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:16.480 like a slow like it's just running you over slow motion, right, 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.159 And you're just getting to this process where you know 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.359 you're being run over by the system and you can't 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.320 do it. You just can't do anything about it because 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:27.919 a lot of times if the council does not do 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:30.840 the work, the judge does not sue a sponte on 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:35.879 his own. Russ, Hey, I call Radishes, right. The prosecutor 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:40.400 is just here for the slam dunk, right, So now 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:47.160 you you get found guilty. What is this like for myself? 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:49.000 I just I don't even remember how I got back 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.439 to my decked What is your processing? 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:56.080 I cried the entire way. I can remember walking back 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:00.240 and asking them to speak to a counselor because my 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:04.719 mind couldn't function. My mind couldn't tell you, I couldn't 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:07.920 even figure out where I was at at the time. 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.200 And I'm getting emotional about it now because I'm thinking 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:13.920 about my young self at that time trying to walk 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:14.560 through that tunnel. 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.480 And you know, you can't protect that. 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:19.359 You know what I'm saying. And you walk through that 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:23.720 tunnel and you're and you're thinking to yourself, they just 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:29.080 took my life. How could you reconcile with with that? 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.480 When you when you believed in something, you believed in 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.960 something more importantly that you trusted in the process, and 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.919 then the process fails you. I sat by myself on 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.160 that deck. I can remember just being in a room 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:46.560 for days and people coming to check on me because 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:49.320 they was afraid that, hey, you know, try to harm himself. 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:59.400 I'm sorry, and you know, but immediately immediately my mom. 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.280 You know, my mom. May she rest in peace now, 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.800 you know. She passed away this year from COVID on 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.879 January the second. I can remember her calling one of 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.520 my friends who was on that deck with me, and 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:14.720 he's like, man, your mom's saying, call her, call her. 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:19.199 And I called her and she says, you know, I 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:22.760 can't imagine what you're going through. My heart is broken. 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.399 But we need to get focused real quick. What is 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.119 it that we need to do to fight for your life. 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:36.440 I just started to go and write letters immediately. That's 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.640 where it all began for me. From nineteen ninety four, 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:46.280 I never stopped writing letters asking for help. I've probably 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:48.040 sent out over four thousand letters. 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:53.560 Good God, I actually sent so many letters out. 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.359 To send one hundred letters out in the bars. 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.200 Free for those who don't know, is free for those 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:03.639 that don't know. Stateville Prison lost a lawsuit in part of 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:07.040 an agreement was they had to send all of our 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:08.400 legal mail out and. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.520 We would take full of vengel. I would put them 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:14.400 in colorful envelopes. I would put them in peppermint looking envelopes, 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:18.040 pink envelopes, green envelopes, just to make them try to 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.840 stand out. And you name them. I wrote them. I said, 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:25.199 do you know do you know anyone who would be 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.199 interested in looking into a role for conviction. I've written 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:34.080 many letters, I've written many people. And Mike responded, and 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:35.800 that changed the narrative for me. 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:40.040 That Mike is his lawyer, Michael Scalar, who took on 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:43.520 the case pro bono on twenty oh seven. Before Mike 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:46.440 got involved in the case. Carl had already filed two 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:52.120 postconviction petitions and both were denied. Together they filed two 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:53.040 more petitions. 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.600 He started working on the case and he said, Carl, 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:58.680 I believe you're innocent, but this is going to be 0:21:58.720 --> 0:21:59.760 an upheel battle. 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:02.840 I just want to interject, right, because this is this 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:08.600 is the turnaround, right, So you're thrown down this deep 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:13.520 dark well, right, that's basically what it is. It's like 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.200 a state Bville. It's like a little like a little hell, 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:18.440 and time is frozen. 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:19.200 Right. 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.040 You have the same people reciting the same rap song 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:25.480 that they reciting when they got locked up, right, So 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:28.520 you're in this like this pocket universe of hell, and 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.680 everything is going against you to prevent you from getting 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:36.400 to that law library, right, getting copies, right, having any 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:42.520 piece to read your case. Right. However, the hope comes 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:46.600 because you see other people getting out, right, So me 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:51.359 and you we got your witness several people, so that 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.639 gives you hope, right, like even right now, like I 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:59.680 really feel like the exhilaration. Like one day we're going 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:03.080 to child Hall and talking to Babystone. Right next day 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.879 Babystone is out. The next day Babystone is on sixty minutes. 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:11.520 That is a hell of a message to us. 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:16.440 It is, and it's very encouraging, and it's very supportive 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:19.920