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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flamm, host of wrongful conviction. Over the years,

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Speaker 1: hundreds of exanneries have told me their stories. Sadly, with

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Speaker 1: the state of our criminal legal system, we're left with

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Speaker 1: far more cases than I can possibly handle alone. So

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Speaker 1: I've asked some exuneries to handle some of these cases,

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Speaker 1: bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could

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Speaker 1: only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This

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Speaker 1: is one of those interviews.

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Speaker 2: In the early morning hours of January thirteenth, nineteen ninety four,

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Speaker 2: Stephen Fitch, Reginald Wilson, and Felicia Lewis were in Chicago

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Speaker 2: driving in Wilson's car. They stopped at a gas station

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Speaker 2: so the two men could use the restroom. When Fitch

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Speaker 2: walked back to the car, he saw two men hijacking it,

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Speaker 2: one driving and another in the back with Wilson and Lewis.

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Speaker 2: Fitch ran across the street and called the police to

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Speaker 2: report the car jacket. Later that day, the frozen bodies

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Speaker 2: of twenty three year old Illinois state basketball star Wars

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Speaker 2: Reginald Wilson, and his twenty year old girlfriend, Felicia Lewis,

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Speaker 2: were discovered in a large garbage band in Chicago. Both

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Speaker 2: had sustained multiple gunshot wounds. The stolen car was found

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Speaker 2: idling in a nearby town after a chase. Two of

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Speaker 2: the carjackers were identified as Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamlet.

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Speaker 2: They were interviewed and admitted their involvements in the crime.

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Speaker 2: They also named three more accomplices, including a guy named Carl.

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Speaker 2: Through their investigation, the police were led.

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Speaker 3: To Carl Williams.

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Speaker 2: The co defendants repeatedly said that Carl Williams wasn't involved

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Speaker 2: and there was no physical evidence linking him to the

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Speaker 2: carjacking and murders, but with a forced false confession, Carl

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Speaker 2: Williams was found guilty of a crime he did not

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Speaker 2: commit and was sentenced to natural life in prison. This

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Speaker 2: is wrongful conviction. My name is Patrick Persley, also known

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Speaker 2: as Free Patrick Pursley. I was previously a guest on

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Speaker 2: wrongful conviction as an axignery, but today I'm honored to

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Speaker 2: be your guest host. It is a true privilege. We'll

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Speaker 2: be talking to two people two Carl's actually attorney Carl Leonard,

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Speaker 2: and my good friend and brother Karl Williams. This interview

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Speaker 2: was recorded in April twenty twenty two. But Karl and

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Speaker 2: I have known each other for a long time. We

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Speaker 2: were at Staville Prison together where we both spent countless

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Speaker 2: hours in the law library. We probably did what how

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Speaker 2: many years you think we did together?

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Speaker 3: Oh man, at least how many years you was in Stateville?

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Speaker 2: Just twenty three?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's just twenty three, and then I was there

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Speaker 3: about twenty three years, So at least twenty twenty three year.

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Speaker 2: A couple decades.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's what you.

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Speaker 2: Hail from Cook County, Chicago.

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Speaker 3: I do rais Chicago born and raised.

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Speaker 2: What's that time?

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Speaker 3: What they call the lower end?

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Speaker 2: The low end got hell of a rep.

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Speaker 3: The low end definitely has a hell of a rep.

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Speaker 3: But I think that the lower end gets an unfair rep.

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Speaker 2: Well, well I don't even think it exists no more.

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Speaker 2: It's so it was so bad they knocked the buildings down.

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Speaker 3: Then they definitely knocked the buildings down. But the spirit

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Speaker 3: and the people are still in that community, serving that

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Speaker 3: community in a more productive and positive ways.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a beautiful thing. So going forward, right, like

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Speaker 2: you catch this just this horrific, horrific case. It's a

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Speaker 2: very heavy story, right, it's a very so you had

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Speaker 2: to carry this. Can you like start us like at

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Speaker 2: the beginning, what like what took place?

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Speaker 3: So me growing up in that community, it was a

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Speaker 3: community like I said that I love, that, I value

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Speaker 3: that I appreciate, and at the same time, I also

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Speaker 3: made some wrong decisions in that community. I come from

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Speaker 3: street hustling, which allowed me to be able to gain

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Speaker 3: material wealth. And you know how this operate in those communities.

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Speaker 2: You gotta eat very true.

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Speaker 3: It brings it brings a long attention. No society good

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Speaker 3: in terms of girls and things. Oh we're talking about

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Speaker 3: starting from the age of like fifteen years old. And

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Speaker 3: what it does is it brings you a ton of attention.

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Speaker 3: Everybody knows your name, everybody wants to be connected to you.

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Speaker 2: A few months after Carl's seventeenth birthday, a terrible crime

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Speaker 2: happened in his neighborhood. Here's attorney Carl Leonard who worked

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Speaker 2: on Carl's case.

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Speaker 4: The evidence that the state collected was that there was

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Speaker 4: carjacking confrontation at a gas station in Chicago. To individuals

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Speaker 4: were kidnapped during the carjack, brought to another location. The

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Speaker 4: woman was actually assaulted, and both of them ended up

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Speaker 4: murdered and in a dumpster, and there were some items

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Speaker 4: that were stolen from the vehicle, and the state alleged

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Speaker 4: that those items were divvied up among the offenders.

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Speaker 2: The other person who had been in the car with

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Speaker 2: the victims saw the carjacking and called the police. The

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Speaker 2: police tracked down the vehicle in nearby town. They arrested

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Speaker 2: two people running from it, Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamlin,

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Speaker 2: who were both later convicted of the crime. Chambers and

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Speaker 2: Hamlin then provided the police with three more names, so

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Speaker 2: Rhice Johnson, Anthony Brown, and a guy named Carl. They

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Speaker 2: didn't give his last name, just Carl. It's really rare

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Speaker 2: to have this mini co defendants and it's a lot

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Speaker 2: to sort through, right.

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Speaker 4: This is a case that involves a lot of offenders

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Speaker 4: and the police are obviously investigating. Their sort of big

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Speaker 4: break is when they find the vehicle, which they had

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Speaker 4: brought to a south suburb side Chicago, and that's how

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Speaker 4: they made the initial arrests of who would become some

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Speaker 4: of Carl's co defendants. There's an individual with them who

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Speaker 4: does not end up becoming a co defendant, but who

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Speaker 4: is the first one to sort of start talking and

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Speaker 4: they he just starts saying names of people who were involved,

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Speaker 4: gives the first name Carl. They decide that Carl Williams

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Speaker 4: is the car that this person's referring to the.

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Speaker 3: Name Carl came up being involved in his brutal cry.

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Speaker 3: So with that name be coming up, then who was

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Speaker 3: the most popular Carl in that area at that time?

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Speaker 3: It was me based off the fact of the street

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Speaker 3: hustling and the things that brought me the unworted attention. Now,

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Speaker 3: the description that they was given of this Carl was six'

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Speaker 3: one to sixty three with your clow hair, light skinned,

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Speaker 3: full beard. I mean I was just a young kid

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Speaker 3: who barely can still grow.

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Speaker 2: A beard to this day, about five to seven.

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Speaker 3: I mean, well not quite five seven, but I mean

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Speaker 3: I'm about five.

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Speaker 2: Right, But you don't match the description skin tone or

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Speaker 2: height or.

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Speaker 3: I was five to seven at that time, stocky, bild,

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Speaker 3: short hair, never had long hair. The description definitely didn't

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Speaker 3: fit me.

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Speaker 2: The police showed up at the home of Erica Wells,

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Speaker 2: Carl's girlfriend at the time. The person that answered the

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Speaker 2: door told the police that Karl was upstairs. The police

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Speaker 2: entered the home and immediately got rough.

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Speaker 3: With him, taking me and throwing me onto the floor,

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Speaker 3: slamming me onto the floor, grabbing me by the neck,

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Speaker 3: putting the gun to my head, threatening to shoot me

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Speaker 3: and to kill me if I move.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people don't really realize how like the

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Speaker 2: tailor to Americas, like the treatment in the door.

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Speaker 3: They absolutely so.

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Speaker 2: It is so camped. The violations as far as what

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Speaker 2: they would call civil rights violations. Corrects, like we basically

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Speaker 2: have no civil rights and at all.

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Speaker 3: When you're at that point and feeling that and understanding

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Speaker 3: it feels like it takes some of your power away.

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Speaker 2: You're powerless in that moment.

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Speaker 3: Correct. And they take me downstairs and I have on

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Speaker 3: nothing but my underwear, no other clothes on whatsoever. And

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Speaker 3: I'm study consistently asking and what's going on. The people

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Speaker 3: in the house are asking and what's going on. They

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Speaker 3: take me out in handcuffs. Now it's January, before you

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Speaker 3: know how cold Chicago could be. To go outside and

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Speaker 3: to step outside in the code.

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Speaker 2: It's a form of torture of itself.

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Speaker 3: But when you think about it today, is it was

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Speaker 3: a deliberate.

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Speaker 2: Process of course.

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Speaker 3: So I ask you the trauma that you have already

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Speaker 3: experienced from from the moment that they into the house

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Speaker 3: to accuse you of a crime that you didn't commit.

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Speaker 3: So the person they take me outside with the handcuffs

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Speaker 3: on and just I guess for him to identify me.

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Speaker 3: Now they're saying that he's identifying me, and I need

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Speaker 3: to go down to the station. And this is where

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Speaker 3: the rest of the trauma begins. You can feel the butterflies,

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Speaker 3: you can feel the nervousness, you can feel the anxiety

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Speaker 3: because of what just happened to you. So there's still

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Speaker 3: trauma that's continuing to follow you and walk with you

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Speaker 3: through the same path that they're taking you on, which

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Speaker 3: is a brutal path. So in them presenting you in

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Speaker 3: that way, having you handcuff holding you by your arm

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Speaker 3: and just jaking open the door and pushing you there

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Speaker 3: and say and the person is it's such a stand.

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Speaker 3: You know this person at least like nah, And they

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Speaker 3: all go and when you go to every room and

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Speaker 3: they say no, it's like, oh man, I've told you,

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Speaker 3: but you don't understand that at the time. They put

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Speaker 3: you back in that room and you're you know, and

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Speaker 3: you're like, oh man, you know that was that? That

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Speaker 3: was it? But then our star to go by, or

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Speaker 3: you don't know how much time going by because there's

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Speaker 3: no clock, and you're like, why am I still here?

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Speaker 3: Then you see one of your co defenders come to you.

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Speaker 3: They bring him back to you, and he still says no,

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Speaker 3: But then they bring him back within the thirty minute

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Speaker 3: or within the hour time frame, and now he's crying,

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Speaker 3: and you know, and and look what's happened to him?

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Speaker 3: And then he says, They ask him again and he says, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now you you know it's it's a concern and a worry.

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Speaker 2: Is that starting to lose your grasp on reality?

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Speaker 3: And imagine I couldn't explain to you that feeling.

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Speaker 2: Now, can we just be clear, because it's not it's torture.

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Speaker 2: It's the breaking of the will, the breaking of the psyche.

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Speaker 3: And I'm glad that you recognized and identified it as that,

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Speaker 3: because that's exactly what it is. It's no different from

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Speaker 3: the mental torture that you put someone and tonam Obay through.

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Speaker 3: It's no different from torture that you put someone through

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Speaker 3: in Vietnam. So you're absolutely right because the tactics are.

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Speaker 2: The same, you know, the objectives are the same.

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Speaker 3: The objectives are definitely the same, just different people.

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Speaker 2: And the facts. The facts can just be collateral damage.

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Speaker 2: The facts are unfortunately at the time.

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Speaker 3: The purpose is to be able to find a person,

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Speaker 3: to accuse them and charge them with the crime. So

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Speaker 3: so your day can be over with.

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Speaker 2: I just want to remind you here, Carl is only

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Speaker 2: seventeen years old at the time when all this is

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Speaker 2: going down. The police interrogate him all day, like ten

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Speaker 2: or twelve hours straight trying to get him to confess.

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Speaker 3: So just going through that process hours on in, hours

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Speaker 3: on in.

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Speaker 2: To where right you just want to end it.

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Speaker 3: It's just like, hey, you know what, well, we want

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Speaker 3: you to sign this. If you don't, there in this

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Speaker 3: process will happen again. I couldn't tell you of the

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Speaker 3: fear that I probably that I felt at that time.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's a very sterile picture, but the

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Speaker 2: reality is those interrogation rooms are full of blood, spit urine.

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Speaker 2: It is they are final.

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Speaker 3: Language on the walls saying hey the.

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Speaker 2: Right, they're hot, they're you know. They are literally stuffed

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Speaker 2: with the energy of the people that were in there

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Speaker 2: just a few moments before you and you can end

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Speaker 2: this process if you signed this statement.

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Speaker 3: As naive as I was. I did think that.

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Speaker 2: The sense of relief, what's their sense of relief? Though

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Speaker 2: after the flame.

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Speaker 3: I think that some of my anxiety kind of went

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Speaker 3: away because of I didn't see them anymore, not knowing

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Speaker 3: that this has this affected my entire life.

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Speaker 2: At nine o'clock that evening, Assistant state's attorney Nicholas Grapsaz

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Speaker 2: wrote a handwritten confession for Carl. The statement said that

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Speaker 2: he was in Anthony Brown's car when Carl and four

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Speaker 2: other co defendants saw the victim Chevy Blazer at the

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Speaker 2: gas station and then decided to hijacket, strip it and

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Speaker 2: sell the parts and split the money. The statement said

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Speaker 2: that Karl was on the lookout while the hijacking took place,

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Speaker 2: and that he was in Brown's car watching while Brown

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Speaker 2: raped Forelicia Lewis. They then allegedly returned Lewis to the

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Speaker 2: blazer and demanded money. The statement said that afterwards all

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Speaker 2: five co defendants met up and Scott Chambers told them

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Speaker 2: they shot the victims and then Carl received thirty dollars

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Speaker 2: as a share of the hijacking money. After being subject

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Speaker 2: to torture and relentless pressure here from the police, Carl

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Speaker 2: Williams signed this false confession sealing his faith.

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Speaker 3: During that time, I was still in a state of confusion.

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Speaker 3: I was still very hurt. I was also struggling in

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Speaker 3: terms of defending myself here. I was, you know, early on,

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Speaker 3: you're giving a PD who's not putting forth an effort

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Speaker 3: to be able to actually highlight your innocence, but just

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Speaker 3: shuffle you along to people to the next case. I

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Speaker 3: was still you know, you hear stuff like this when

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Speaker 3: the judge is a law judge, and this judge will

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Speaker 3: see right through the police's nonsense and then they'll bring

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Speaker 3: your relief. Well, I actually hope that would be for me.

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Speaker 2: That hurts that that's like the loss of innocence right there,

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Speaker 2: when we learn of what a freaking fairy tale that

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Speaker 2: one is right.

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Speaker 3: Correct until and listen, let me go back just a

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Speaker 3: little bit. The first time when I'm arraigned in front

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Speaker 3: of the judge, my co defendants says still that I

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Speaker 3: wasn't involved in the case, that they have the wrong person.

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Speaker 2: This is a raiment.

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Speaker 3: Yes, you would think that at some point there was

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Speaker 3: want to be an investigation. This is a continuing theme.

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Speaker 2: The fair Belt right now.

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Speaker 3: But I'm things. I continued to move forward at a

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Speaker 3: very rapid, fast paced and.

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Speaker 2: No one cares. So what actual evidence like was would

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Speaker 2: what evidence did the state present? And what's your side?

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Speaker 3: The statement? That's it? No co defendants to come testify.

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Speaker 3: No one testify against me. The co defendant who decided

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Speaker 3: to testify against another, the co defendant refused to testify

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Speaker 3: against me because he said to them that you don't

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Speaker 3: know I was innocent and wasn't involved in the case.

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Speaker 2: As a practice in jail house lawyer for twenty three

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Speaker 2: years since stay Field, I've seen this way too much.

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Speaker 2: Public defenders are often referred to in prison as public

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Speaker 2: pretenders because they often dropped the ball. It happens more

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Speaker 2: often than the general public has any idea of. And

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Speaker 2: in this case, the public defender failed to get any

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Speaker 2: exculpatory evidence to help free his client.

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Speaker 3: The lawyer never went to witnesses. So that was a

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Speaker 3: witness in the case. And at that time, who was

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Speaker 3: coming to court for me and who was daring the

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Speaker 3: audience in terms of my alibi every time.

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Speaker 2: I had a court date, and they just don't talk

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Speaker 2: to him.

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Speaker 3: And they never talked, and they never spoke to him.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, we'll get I've seen it. I trust me,

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Speaker 2: I've seen it. As a jail house lawyer, you already

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Speaker 2: know right that you know, not knocking lawyers.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: However, when we're sitting inside and we're filing these complaints

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Speaker 2: to the Attorney Registration Disciplinary Commission, another lawyer answers them right,

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Speaker 2: And basically all these claims are basically all same as

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Speaker 2: far as failures to reach out to get witnesses, failure

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Speaker 2: to investigate, failures to secure evidence right maybe video surveillance

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Speaker 2: to whatever, failure to get an expert to challenge any evidence.

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Speaker 2: But here it is all a gap for you is

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Speaker 2: a confession. You would think that he might have stepped

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Speaker 2: up and did more.

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Speaker 3: No physical evidence, no, no, nothing to connect me to

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Speaker 3: the crime whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: The jury deliberated for several days and eventually came to

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Speaker 2: the conclusion that Carl Williams was guilty a first degree murder.

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Speaker 4: Carl was convicted because of his you know, the so

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Speaker 4: called confession, the statement that was the only evidence. And

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Speaker 4: I think the police knew that they didn't have any evidence.

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Speaker 4: That's why they beat you.

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Speaker 3: That's why they.

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Speaker 1: Used all that.

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Speaker 4: They need something. The only way they're closing this case

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Speaker 4: against Carl Williams is if you confess, So they made

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Speaker 4: sure to get a confession, correct, That's how they you convicted.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean from the second I met Carl,

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Speaker 4: I knew he's innocent. I still believe he's innocent, no

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Speaker 4: doubt about it.

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Speaker 2: The way I kind of like look at is like

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Speaker 2: you know, there's Zamboni machine that the thing, right, it's

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Speaker 2: like a slow like it's just running you over slow motion, right,

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Speaker 2: And you're just getting to this process where you know

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Speaker 2: you're being run over by the system and you can't

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Speaker 2: do it. You just can't do anything about it because

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Speaker 2: a lot of times if the council does not do

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Speaker 2: the work, the judge does not sue a sponte on

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Speaker 2: his own. Russ, Hey, I call Radishes, right. The prosecutor

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Speaker 2: is just here for the slam dunk, right, So now

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Speaker 2: you you get found guilty. What is this like for myself?

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Speaker 2: I just I don't even remember how I got back

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Speaker 2: to my decked What is your processing?

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Speaker 3: I cried the entire way. I can remember walking back

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Speaker 3: and asking them to speak to a counselor because my

330
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Speaker 3: mind couldn't function. My mind couldn't tell you, I couldn't

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Speaker 3: even figure out where I was at at the time.

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Speaker 3: And I'm getting emotional about it now because I'm thinking

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Speaker 3: about my young self at that time trying to walk

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Speaker 3: through that tunnel.

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Speaker 2: And you know, you can't protect that.

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Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying. And you walk through that

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00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,720
Speaker 3: tunnel and you're and you're thinking to yourself, they just

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00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 3: took my life. How could you reconcile with with that?

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Speaker 3: When you when you believed in something, you believed in

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00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 3: something more importantly that you trusted in the process, and

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Speaker 3: then the process fails you. I sat by myself on

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Speaker 3: that deck. I can remember just being in a room

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Speaker 3: for days and people coming to check on me because

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Speaker 3: they was afraid that, hey, you know, try to harm himself.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, and you know, but immediately immediately my mom.

346
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Speaker 3: You know, my mom. May she rest in peace now,

347
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 3: you know. She passed away this year from COVID on

348
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Speaker 3: January the second. I can remember her calling one of

349
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Speaker 3: my friends who was on that deck with me, and

350
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,720
Speaker 3: he's like, man, your mom's saying, call her, call her.

351
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,199
Speaker 3: And I called her and she says, you know, I

352
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Speaker 3: can't imagine what you're going through. My heart is broken.

353
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Speaker 3: But we need to get focused real quick. What is

354
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 3: it that we need to do to fight for your life.

355
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,440
Speaker 3: I just started to go and write letters immediately. That's

356
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Speaker 3: where it all began for me. From nineteen ninety four,

357
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 3: I never stopped writing letters asking for help. I've probably

358
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 3: sent out over four thousand letters.

359
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 2: Good God, I actually sent so many letters out.

360
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Speaker 3: To send one hundred letters out in the bars.

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Speaker 2: Free for those who don't know, is free for those

362
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 2: that don't know. Stateville Prison lost a lawsuit in part of

363
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 2: an agreement was they had to send all of our

364
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:08,400
Speaker 2: legal mail out and.

365
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 3: We would take full of vengel. I would put them

366
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,400
Speaker 3: in colorful envelopes. I would put them in peppermint looking envelopes,

367
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: pink envelopes, green envelopes, just to make them try to

368
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Speaker 3: stand out. And you name them. I wrote them. I said,

369
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Speaker 3: do you know do you know anyone who would be

370
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,199
Speaker 3: interested in looking into a role for conviction. I've written

371
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 3: many letters, I've written many people. And Mike responded, and

372
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 3: that changed the narrative for me.

373
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Speaker 2: That Mike is his lawyer, Michael Scalar, who took on

374
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: the case pro bono on twenty oh seven. Before Mike

375
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,440
Speaker 2: got involved in the case. Carl had already filed two

376
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:52,120
Speaker 2: postconviction petitions and both were denied. Together they filed two

377
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 2: more petitions.

378
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 3: He started working on the case and he said, Carl,

379
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 3: I believe you're innocent, but this is going to be

380
00:21:58,720 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 3: an upheel battle.

381
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 2: I just want to interject, right, because this is this

382
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 2: is the turnaround, right, So you're thrown down this deep

383
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 2: dark well, right, that's basically what it is. It's like

384
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 2: a state Bville. It's like a little like a little hell,

385
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 2: and time is frozen.

386
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Speaker 3: Right.

387
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 2: You have the same people reciting the same rap song

388
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 2: that they reciting when they got locked up, right, So

389
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 2: you're in this like this pocket universe of hell, and

390
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 2: everything is going against you to prevent you from getting

391
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 2: to that law library, right, getting copies, right, having any

392
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 2: piece to read your case. Right. However, the hope comes

393
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 2: because you see other people getting out, right, So me

394
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 2: and you we got your witness several people, so that

395
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 2: gives you hope, right, like even right now, like I

396
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 2: really feel like the exhilaration. Like one day we're going

397
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 2: to child Hall and talking to Babystone. Right next day

398
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 2: Babystone is out. The next day Babystone is on sixty minutes.

399
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 2: That is a hell of a message to us.

400
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 3: It is, and it's very encouraging, and it's very supportive

401
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 3: in terms of your spirit, your energy, and your peace,

402
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 3: and your effort to continue to push for and drive

403
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 3: the narrative of your innocence.

404
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: And when we get the lawyers right, because we know

405
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 2: pro say gets no play. Once we get the lawyers right,

406
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: it gives us such a shot in the arm. I

407
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 2: look at it very much like I sent my words

408
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 2: out to fight for me, and over time, other people

409
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 2: added their words to fight for.

410
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 4: Me, and.

411
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 2: Soon it becomes an undeniable, undeniable force, and it literally

412
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 2: sets us free.

413
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 4: Long before I was ever even involved, Mike had done

414
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 4: a ton of investigation and gotten affidavits from the co

415
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 4: defendants from a number of people attesting to Carl's innocence. Meanwhile,

416
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 4: there's a Supreme Court case called Miller versus Alabama that

417
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 4: was decided which talks about how it can be unconstitutional

418
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 4: to give life sentences or de facto life sentences to juveniles.

419
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 4: Carl falls into that category, so they file another post

420
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 4: conviction petition raising that issue separately. The judge dismissed both

421
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,719
Speaker 4: of them and went up on appeal and Mike and

422
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 4: his team won the appeal sent it back to the

423
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 4: trial court to have a hearing on these issues. That's

424
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 4: the point at which I got involved, was getting ready

425
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 4: to have that hearing.

426
00:24:55,160 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: Und leg popular opinion is very weighty on lawyers as

427
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 2: far as you know, a lot of people give you

428
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 2: like jeers for helping prisoners. As far as yourself and

429
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: going into this process, what were some of the challenges.

430
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 4: I think one of the hardest parts about these cases

431
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 4: in general is just how old they are, and like,

432
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 4: it's terrible for you guys who were in prison for

433
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 4: what was it, twenty four years, twenty six years, but

434
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 4: during that time, memories fade, witnesses die, witnesses move, and

435
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 4: so we're trying to piece back together something that happened

436
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 4: a very long time ago, involving people who have moved

437
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 4: on with their lives and want nothing to do with you.

438
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 4: So I think that tends to be one of the

439
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 4: bigger challenges with all of these cases is that we're

440
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 4: not the place. We can't show up with a badge

441
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 4: and say you need to talk to us, So you're

442
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 4: just trying to convince people that you're worth their time.

443
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 4: So I think just the passage of time and the

444
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 4: lack of any real power makes it really hard to

445
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 4: sort of reinvestigate these types of cases. Our goal is

446
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 4: to get Carl Holme, and the way we were able

447
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 4: to get him home the quickest was to reach an

448
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 4: agreement with the state about the Miller claim the juvenile

449
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 4: life without parole claim. Agreed to a sentence, and we

450
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 4: did a sentencing hearing instead of doing an evidentiary hearing,

451
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 4: and convinced the judge to impose a sentence that got

452
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 4: Carl Holm pretty quickly after that.

453
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,479
Speaker 2: A lot of people don't really realize how long it

454
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: takes for a post conviction petition to matriculate through the

455
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 2: circuit courts. The whole process in this case was definitely

456
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 2: not quick. In twenty twelve, and appellate court ruled that

457
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 2: he was entitled to a new evidentiary hearing and if

458
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 2: he were denied a new trial after that, he should

459
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: at least deserve a new sentence based on the president

460
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 2: set by Miller versus Alabama.

461
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 3: It always was one thing after another and saying, oh, well,

462
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 3: we're looking, we're waiting on these documents, or I didn't

463
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 3: read this or she would give me these long continuances.

464
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 3: So it went on and on and on, and it

465
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 3: dragged out from November of twenty twelve all the way

466
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 3: to August of twenty twenty.

467
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: Now this one one ten years. Do you see or

468
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 2: do you believe that this using time as a weapon.

469
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 3: It is a household it's being used as a weapon

470
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 3: because it wears you. Now imagine the psychological effects that

471
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 3: that has upon you. You're going to court or you're

472
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 3: having a court date, and then it's another continuous.

473
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 4: I think thinking about how much time went by there,

474
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 4: and I think you're absolutely right that there is a

475
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 4: strategic reason for the state to delay things and things

476
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 4: like that. I think also, and this is much more depressing,

477
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 4: is that the delays I don't think are necessarily because

478
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 4: this is the way we're going to win the case.

479
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 4: I think a lot of the times delays are you

480
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 4: guys don't matter.

481
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: And it's very true.

482
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 4: There are more important things for these judges to be

483
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 4: working on. There's more important things for the prosecutors to

484
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 4: be working on. These guys were convicted, they don't matter.

485
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 2: Kyle was released from prison in twenty twenty, but not

486
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 2: based on his innocence, but because of the new sentence

487
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,239
Speaker 2: that was imposed, it's a chance to get out, but

488
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: it also means you won't officially be exonerated, and that's

489
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: a very heavy cross to carry for someone who's actually innocent.

490
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 3: For me, it was very bittersweet. It's something that I

491
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: was like, you know, I didn't want to do, but

492
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 3: was forced to do. I wasn't gonna die in somebody's prison.

493
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 3: My mom was older. I lost the son.

494
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 4: It's one of the things that I that I kicked

495
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 4: myself over and have gone back over if there's anything

496
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 4: I could have done to make this go faster. Because

497
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 4: your son died right before you got out, I've gone

498
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 4: back over it and wondered, is there any place I

499
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 4: could have made this go a month faster or something

500
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 4: like that. I am beyond grateful that you were home

501
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 4: to be with your mom, but your the fact that

502
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 4: your son died right before you got out, and.

503
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 3: I want to just make this clear, not that he

504
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: died as if he died from natural causes, he was

505
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 3: murdered in broad daylight.

506
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 2: I need to touch on this. How many times did

507
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: you see guys our age lose sons to the streets

508
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: while we were inside.

509
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 3: Oh man, I lost count I probably I know about

510
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 3: forty people who's probably lost the son.

511
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: The father's not there, were locked up, right. The mother

512
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: is doing her best.

513
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 3: Is putting the culture effort, but.

514
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: The culture is drawing them out. The culture is drawing

515
00:29:58,520 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: them out.

516
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 3: That is very true. The culture is definitely drawing them out,

517
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 3: reshaping their frame of mind, changing their free features. It's

518
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 3: really hard for them to give grass, absolutely.

519
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 2: Because it's like speaking a foreign language.

520
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 3: It is. And you're still trying to be a father

521
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 3: and a parent from from prison, which you know you

522
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 3: wish there was a such thing.

523
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, I literally like hashtag Confessions of a

524
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: jail Daddy. It's an oxymoron. You're in jail. You can

525
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: write all the letters and all the money, but the

526
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: culture is still going to get a hold to our children.

527
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 3: It is. But in returning back into society, you know,

528
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 3: I've tooken every educational course that I possibly could in

529
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 3: that prison, only because I've always seen a better future

530
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 3: and an opportunity for me upon my return. So in

531
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 3: the name of my son, in the name of myself,

532
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 3: I was definitely going to upon my return, whatever day

533
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,719
Speaker 3: that was going to be. I was going to do

534
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 3: something and make something better of myself and highlight it,

535
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 3: to do better in the community that I grew up in.

536
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: Redemption Redemption song.

537
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 3: I feel like I have been taking that journey. I

538
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 3: feel like I have been walking that journey with the

539
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 3: work that I've been doing. I now teach kids in

540
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 3: the neighborhood who fathers were incarcerated or who mothers were incarcerated.

541
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: I teach them carpentry. I own a furniture business as

542
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 3: building custom cabinets as well as selling furniture and supply.

543
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 2: This is Royal Man Solutions.

544
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 3: And you can find that on Royalmansolutions dot com. And

545
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 3: one of the things that I do is that I

546
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 3: take some of these kids from the community, take them

547
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 3: on deliveries with me, and I pay them. It's it's

548
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,719
Speaker 3: an opportunity for them to learn the trade and the craft,

549
00:31:54,520 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 3: but also learn the experience of working a job to

550
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 3: be able to provide for themselves today, tomorrow, in in

551
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 3: the future.

552
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: I think it's really beautiful how he's carrying on with

553
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: his life without the bitterness and the baggage. He's very

554
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: much a radiant soul. He's given back to his community

555
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: and we'll have links to Carl's work in the bile

556
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: so you can flood him with love there. And now

557
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 2: we'll go to closing part of our show. I want

558
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: to thank the listeners for having me as your guest host,

559
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 2: and of course thanks to the two Carls, Carl Williams

560
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: for allowing me the honor to tell this story and

561
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: Carl Leonard for his work on behalf of the Wrongfully Convicted.

562
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: This last bit of the show we call closing arguments.

563
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to step away from the mic and let

564
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: Carl and Carl have the last words.

565
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 4: The way to avoid wrongful convictions in the first place,

566
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 4: the way to fix the wrongful convictions that we have

567
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 4: is for the people who are listening to the program

568
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 4: to vote. Vote for prosecutors who are going to change

569
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 4: the way these offices work. Vote for mayors who are

570
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 4: going to appoint police chis who are going to change

571
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 4: the way police departments work. It's a slow process. It

572
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 4: doesn't help people like Carl, but hopefully it helps prevent

573
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 4: more people like Carl. It get the people out who

574
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 4: are locked up wrongfully, stop sending the wrong people to prison.

575
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 4: And I think the only way that we can do

576
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 4: that is to vote for better leaders.

577
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 3: I certainly agree. I'm reaching out to different legislators making

578
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 3: an argument about how the narrative surrounding wrongful convictions needs

579
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 3: to change. How there need to be a calling for

580
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 3: people being held responsible for allowing wrongful convictions and knowingly

581
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 3: committing crimes with prosecutor and misconduct with police brutality where

582
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 3: there be charges brought against them because they're crimes. If

583
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 3: I committed the crime, you will bring your charge against me.

584
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 3: It shouldn't be no difference. The other thing is is

585
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: that I thank y'all for being able to tell the

586
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: stories of those who are wrongfully convicted. This allows an

587
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 3: audience to hear the story, make a decision, and hopefully

588
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 3: be active to change the narrative as well. It's important

589
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 3: to inform the public so they can definitely be involved

590
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 3: and get involved. It makes them more capable, more able,

591
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 3: and more fit in terms of serving to change the

592
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 3: narrative about wrongful convictions.

593
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I like to

594
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: thank our executive producers Jason Flem and Kevin Wadis. The

595
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: senior producer for this episode is Jackie Polly and our

596
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: producers are Lela Robinson, Conner Hall and Jeff Clive Barne.

597
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: Our editor is Roxander Gweedy and special thanks to jillianforced

598
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 2: That for help on this episode. The music and this

599
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 2: productions by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

600
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 3: Be sure to.

601
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at

602
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as

603
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 2: well as Lava for Good. On all three platforms. You

604
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 2: can also follow me on Facebook and Instagram at free

605
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: Patrick Pursley at imkid Culture two and online at imkidculture

606
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: dot org. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for

607
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one.

608
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wronfel Conviction,

609
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: Patrick Persley will interview Eric Blackman, a fellow Xgnery and

610
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: someone he knew well inside prison. They're going to talk

611
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: about the toxic criminal justice system in nineteen ninety Chicago

612
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 1: and how Eric ended up in prison for a crime

613
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: he didn't commit. I mean, he couldn't have committed it.

614
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: The guy had dozens, literally dozens of alibi witnesses. Now, Patrick,

615
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: by the way, is someone I mean, this guy is

616
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: such an incredible human. During his almost three decades wrongfully

617
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 1: convicted in some of the most dangerous and deadly prisons

618
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: in America, he somehow figured out how to change the

619
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: law that allowed for the evidence in his case to

620
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: be tested, which ultimately proved his innocence and led to

621
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: his exoneration. So this is going to be an incredible conversation.

622
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: Listen next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed