Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where I'm in
Speaker 1: Canada for the espnW summit and trying my hardest to
Speaker 1: say Toronto without the second te Toronto just feels weird.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, June eighteenth, and on today's show you'll hear
Speaker 1: my conversation with Sports Illustrated Women's sports staff writer Emma Bachelari.
Speaker 1: We talk about her SI cover story on the Indiana
Speaker 1: Fever and the franchise is sped up timeline in search
Speaker 1: of a title, why she'd love to write a long
Speaker 1: form profile on Links coach Cheryl Reeve, the women's basketball
Speaker 1: book she's working on with friend of the show Jordan Robinson,
Speaker 1: and her Soda substack side quest. Plus, the NWSL gets
Speaker 1: a little more international. We remember a long distance running
Speaker 1: legend and two Hoopers show the utmost respect for each
Speaker 1: other's games, while a third takes it one step too far.
Speaker 1: It's all coming up right after this. Back, y'all, here's
Speaker 1: what you need to know today in footy news, the
Speaker 1: Washington Spirit are welcoming the first ever Italian player to
Speaker 1: the NWSL after winning the Serie A league with club
Speaker 1: side Juventus. Twenty five year old forward Sofia can Torre
Speaker 1: will join the DC based club Cantory, not thirteen goals
Speaker 1: and six assists across all competitions with Juventus this past season,
Speaker 1: and new Spirit head coach Adrian Gonzalez, the former DC
Speaker 1: assistant who officially begins his new head role today, is
Speaker 1: excited to have her on the roster, he told the
Speaker 1: Athletic Quote. Sofia is an important signing for this Spirit
Speaker 1: team as we continue to build up our roster to
Speaker 1: compete for trophies. Her extensive experience in the Italian leagues
Speaker 1: and exceptional talent in the attacking third will help add
Speaker 1: a new layer for the Spirit moving forward end quote.
Speaker 1: Can Torre has also got international experience. She's suited up
Speaker 1: thirty six times for Italy, scoring five goals. Washington is
Speaker 1: currently fourth in the NWSL standings and hoping that Kentry
Speaker 1: can help close the eight point gap between the Spirit
Speaker 1: and the first place Kansas City. Current in running news,
Speaker 1: we're sad to announce that Nina Cusick, a longtime advocate
Speaker 1: for women in long distance running, passed away last week
Speaker 1: at the age of eighty six. Cusick was a pioneer
Speaker 1: in many ways. She ran the Boston Marathon four times
Speaker 1: between nineteen sixty eight and seventy one before women were
Speaker 1: officially allowed to race. Then, due to the pressure, she
Speaker 1: and others applied, the marathon added a women's division for
Speaker 1: the first time, and in nineteen seventy two, Cusick raced
Speaker 1: in it and won an inductee into the Long Distance
Speaker 1: Running Hall of Fame in nineteen ninety nine. Cusick ran
Speaker 1: more than eighty marathons in her lifetime. She also set
Speaker 1: the American record for the fifty mile run in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy seven and won the Empire State Building Run up
Speaker 1: three straight times from nineteen seventy nine to eighty one.
Speaker 1: Catherine Switzer, the first woman to run the Boston Marathon
Speaker 1: as an official competitor in nineteen sixty seven before there
Speaker 1: was a spot on the race's sign up form for gender,
Speaker 1: summed up Cusick's influence to the AP, saying quote, Nina
Speaker 1: was not only a champion runner, but she was instrumental
Speaker 1: in the official acceptance of women and distance running because
Speaker 1: she did years of time work of changing rules, regulations,
Speaker 1: and submitting medical evidence to prove women's capability.
Speaker 3: End quote. We hear at good game.
Speaker 1: We'll continue to remember Nina Cusick as an icon in
Speaker 1: women's sports to hoops. Only one game on the WNBA
Speaker 1: slate tonight, so no need for multiple screens. The Phoenix
Speaker 1: Merkury Pay visits the Connecticut Sun Out in Uncasville at
Speaker 1: seven pm Eastern. Catch that one streaming live on WNBA
Speaker 1: League Pass. And in softball, we've got an athlete unlimited
Speaker 1: Softball League doubleheader come in your way tonight starting at
Speaker 1: seven pm Eastern. It's the Bandits versus the Talons at
Speaker 1: Wilkins Stadium in Wichita, Kansas, followed by the Blaze against
Speaker 1: the Volts at nine thirty Eastern.
Speaker 3: If you're in the area, get there. It's another single
Speaker 3: admission doubleheader, which means it's very easy on the pockets.
Speaker 3: If you're not in Kansas, you can watch the seven
Speaker 3: pm game on ESPN two and the nine to thirty
Speaker 3: contest on MLB dot Com, MLBtv, and FanDuel Sports Network.
Speaker 3: We got to take a quick break when we come
Speaker 3: back in sports, with Emma Bachelari joining us now.
Speaker 1: She's a staff writer who focuses on women's sports and
Speaker 1: baseball for Sports Illustrated and Soda for her sub stack,
Speaker 1: The Soda Fountain a member of the Baseball Writers Association
Speaker 1: of America. She previously wrote for Baseball Prospectus and Deadspin,
Speaker 1: and has appeared on BBC News, PBS News Hour, and
Speaker 1: MLB Network. A Duke grad food lover, expert, traveler, Amtrak evangelist,
Speaker 1: and person who knows that perfect days are found in Chicago.
Speaker 1: It's Emma Bachelari. Hi, Emma, that is quite the intro.
Speaker 1: You clearly scoped out the Instagram. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4: That was great.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to take that Amtrak trip.
Speaker 1: It looked amazing and I was so appreciative that you
Speaker 1: found the perfect day.
Speaker 3: And of course that day was in Chicago. Duh.
Speaker 2: Yes, that is one of my best friends from college
Speaker 2: lives in Chicago and I recently had a great day
Speaker 2: with her. But yes, anyone who's looking for a way
Speaker 2: to get around the country. I spent three weeks on
Speaker 2: Amtrak and could fill its own podcast with that. I
Speaker 2: truly loved it. So yes, go take the train.
Speaker 1: I love a good train ride, and I really resent
Speaker 1: the creators of American travel who prioritized cars over public
Speaker 1: squares and trains. But that's a conversation for another time. Actually,
Speaker 1: it's a conversation for now in this sense, because I
Speaker 1: saw you were just recently in Brussels and I've never been,
Speaker 1: So instead of turning this into a full travel pod,
Speaker 1: we'll limit it to just one must do in Brussels.
Speaker 2: Obviously drink beer, but beyond that too, not to over
Speaker 2: index on trains, but they have this crazy train museum
Speaker 2: called train World in Brussels, which had a really fun
Speaker 2: train simulator, and it's especially in Europe. The history of
Speaker 2: trains are really like the history of the continent in
Speaker 2: so many ways. And I was with one of my
Speaker 2: friends who does not care about trains the way I do,
Speaker 2: and train World was still the highlight of her Brussels
Speaker 2: s trip, like kind of beer and muscles aside. So yes,
Speaker 2: go to Brussels, drink some beer, and then go to
Speaker 2: the train.
Speaker 3: Museum, Beer, muscles, train World. Got it. I'm on it.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about.
Speaker 1: Your sports writing, because you did a great SI cover
Speaker 1: story on the Indiana fever, and this was a topic
Speaker 1: ripe for discussion. New coach, new roster, new president, new
Speaker 1: general manager, and a new timeline for a team that
Speaker 1: realized after Caitlin Clark's arrival that they wanted to take
Speaker 1: advantage of every single minute she played, every game they
Speaker 1: had her in uniform, and every opportunity to win with her.
Speaker 3: So let's start there.
Speaker 1: What did you learn about the Fever's timeline from dropping
Speaker 1: in and talking to all their big pieces.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was really interesting to me from AFAR over
Speaker 2: the winter, just because you know, everyone has been talking
Speaker 2: so much about this big reset that we're going to
Speaker 2: see in twenty twenty six, when you know you have
Speaker 2: free agency opening up, you're going to have a new
Speaker 2: CBA ideally potentially a ton of player movement, and so
Speaker 2: many teams were kind of in like weight and see
Speaker 2: mode and the fact that the Fever so clearly were
Speaker 2: not was fascinating to me. And I think the biggest
Speaker 2: thing that came through in all of the conversations I
Speaker 2: had with you know, Kelly Cross, Coop and Ambercox and
Speaker 2: Steph White, all of these new pieces that they've brought
Speaker 2: in on the administration and coaching side, was how much
Speaker 2: they really wanted to build a true contender this year.
Speaker 2: That the idea wasn't like, oh, like make it a
Speaker 2: little further in the playoffs and see how it goes,
Speaker 2: but to do everything you can to potentially win it
Speaker 2: all this year, which, like as we've seen already, that's
Speaker 2: a hard thing to do. To get that many new
Speaker 2: pieces to gel. It's going to take time. It's not
Speaker 2: easy to say you have a one year window, let's
Speaker 2: go and take it. But to use this year both
Speaker 2: as a chance to try to win it all and
Speaker 2: to set the groundwork to then build something even bigger
Speaker 2: and greater in twenty twenty six and ideally beyond, which
Speaker 2: is a tricky thing to do, right, to have a
Speaker 2: window that is as open as you can get it
Speaker 2: now and also potentially in the years to come, to
Speaker 2: kind of have that be not just you're throwing open
Speaker 2: the door, but also you're trying to build for the
Speaker 2: future at the same time time. But I think they
Speaker 2: did about as create a job as you can do
Speaker 2: of getting those pieces in And then, of course the
Speaker 2: bigger question is how do you integrate them? Incorporate them,
Speaker 2: and that is not always easy. But yeah, it was
Speaker 2: interesting to work on to see exactly how they went
Speaker 2: about trying to pull that and all of that in
Speaker 2: screen for the right personalities, et cetera. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: it was fun to work on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and obviously this is a team that is in
Speaker 1: the position it's in with two of its stars, Caitlin
Speaker 1: Clark and Eleiah Boston because they were the worst of
Speaker 1: the worst, because they got to have number one picks.
Speaker 1: Those players are actually signed through and beyond this season,
Speaker 1: which is rare to have two stars that you're having
Speaker 1: the rights to beyond this massive transition time in the league.
Speaker 1: We've seen across a number of teams we've looked at
Speaker 1: that they literally have one player sometimes none, that are
Speaker 1: actually signed beyond this season. And so to know that
Speaker 1: they can build around those two when they're trying to
Speaker 1: attract free agents during this what we expect to be
Speaker 1: this big free agent frenzy in the off season is
Speaker 1: great for them, but they need to prove this season
Speaker 1: essentially that they're a different franchise than the one that
Speaker 1: has gotten them to the point where they're drafting back
Speaker 1: to back number one overall picks, and that's why this
Speaker 1: season was so important to them. We've seen a lot
Speaker 1: of coverage of Eliah Boston and Caitlin Clark's relationship.
Speaker 3: We see a lot of cute little clips of them.
Speaker 1: What else did you notice when you were covering this
Speaker 1: team and going to report on this team about the
Speaker 1: interaction between the players and which players felt like the
Speaker 1: vocal leaders, which players felt like they led just with behavior.
Speaker 3: What did you notice?
Speaker 2: I think Kelsey Mitchell is such an important piece here,
Speaker 2: which obviously people who watch the team know, but I
Speaker 2: really think it can't be overstated how much she does
Speaker 2: for this group. That she was the one piece who
Speaker 2: has really stuck through all of those rough years when
Speaker 2: they were losing to get those number one picks. It was,
Speaker 2: you know, they're in the trend, just through the worst
Speaker 2: of it, and then decided to stay. Twice She's resigned
Speaker 2: with them, once a couple of years ago and then
Speaker 2: once this off season. And hearing how both Kitlyn Leah
Speaker 2: Lexiehill all talk about her, you know, there are other
Speaker 2: newer veterans on this team, but I really think Kelsey
Speaker 2: Mitchell is She's not like a super over the top
Speaker 2: vocal leader, but they just respect her so much. She
Speaker 2: has such an important part to play here on and
Speaker 2: off the floor. And I think obviously talking about the
Speaker 2: chemistry that you see between Kitlin Clark and Aliah Boston,
Speaker 2: that's huge, but that also really frees up Kelsey Mitchell
Speaker 2: at the two to do, which she does, and she
Speaker 2: had the best season of her career last year. Has
Speaker 2: shown flashes with that again, like when everything is clicking here.
Speaker 2: She's really such a leader here who's so important to
Speaker 2: what they do. Obviously, Kitlyn is the point guard, that's
Speaker 2: like a natural. She also is a much more vocal, natural,
Speaker 2: outgoing leader in a lot of ways that I think
Speaker 2: you see on the floor all the time and off
Speaker 2: the floor when she was injured yelling on the bench.
Speaker 2: But I think it really in a lot of ways,
Speaker 2: Kelsey Mitchell is kind of the heartbeat of this group
Speaker 2: and that she just has such an important part to
Speaker 2: play here in every facet of her job.
Speaker 1: I want to hear about Natasha Howard and Dwana Bonner.
Speaker 1: Those are two really big time, successful veteran players to
Speaker 1: add to the mix. There could be a conflict in
Speaker 1: terms of who's the alpha, who's the big dog, who's
Speaker 1: the one who wants to impart wisdom? When you've got
Speaker 1: a Caitlin Clark who's only in her second year but
Speaker 1: obviously has her own solar system Essentially, how does it
Speaker 1: seemed to work out so far with those two veterans
Speaker 1: coming in?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think it's been a little bit
Speaker 2: tricky on the floor. There's certainly been an adjustment period.
Speaker 2: I think you know, anyone who's watching this team has
Speaker 2: seen do Wanna Bonner started in the starting lineup, and
Speaker 2: then it has been coming off the bench more recently.
Speaker 2: Obviously they've had some injury struggles across the board that
Speaker 2: made them shuffle some things. But I think both of
Speaker 2: these players were kind of screened coming in here for recognizing,
Speaker 2: like this is an important veteran leadership position, it is
Speaker 2: not necessarily your typical one, and just so much about
Speaker 2: this roster, about the hubbub that exists around this roster,
Speaker 2: is so different than certainly anything else you're seeing in
Speaker 2: the w But I think you can make the case
Speaker 2: anything else you're seeing in sports right now in terms
Speaker 2: of the gravity of one star like that, and how
Speaker 2: you navigate that as a team where everyone has a
Speaker 2: role to play, and recognizing that the noise is so loud,
Speaker 2: but to some extent it's just noise. They were screened
Speaker 2: for knowing, like you are going to have to adjust
Speaker 2: to some different things here that weren't the case in
Speaker 2: other environments, And certainly both of them are accustomed to
Speaker 2: playing with stars don't want to. Bonnor was in Phoenix
Speaker 2: with DT forever. They know what that's like. But just
Speaker 2: realizing like this is a different phase of your career.
Speaker 2: That was something dB had talked about a lot of
Speaker 2: you know, she realizes these are her last few years.
Speaker 2: She wants something different, that she feels like she has
Speaker 2: something to give back and this is a chance to
Speaker 2: do that. That was something both of them talked about,
Speaker 2: but especially do Wanna Bonner and that maybe means your
Speaker 2: role shifts on the floor. That means maybe you're sharing
Speaker 2: different aspects of that with each other, with other vets,
Speaker 2: but basically just knowing They had long conversations with Kelly
Speaker 2: Cross cop with Amber Cox, and Kelly Cross knows Natasha
Speaker 2: Howard very well. She had drafted her originally in Indiana,
Speaker 2: and Amber Cox had worked with Dowanna Bonner that even
Speaker 2: though there's so much that's new here, they really leaned
Speaker 2: on pre existing relationships and so it's certainly not an
Speaker 2: easy thing to balance in terms of being in this
Speaker 2: particular spotlight. But they really had a lot of conversations
Speaker 2: about it ahead of time in terms of finding like
Speaker 2: are these the right personalities to walk that line that
Speaker 2: they're going to have to walk.
Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of that was so interesting to read write
Speaker 1: Thompson's story about Caitlin Clark in her final year at Iowa,
Speaker 1: and in particular how much work had to be done
Speaker 1: behind the scenes by her coaching staff and the rest
Speaker 1: of the team staff to help her better understand how
Speaker 1: her body language, her frustration, her approach to teammates that
Speaker 1: let her down by not catching a great pass or
Speaker 1: finishing a shot would impact the team at large. And
Speaker 1: it feels like, obviously that's a work in progress for
Speaker 1: Caitlyn and always will be. If you're looking real hard,
Speaker 1: you can still find those moments in a game when
Speaker 1: she's very clear in expressing her frustration. How is it
Speaker 1: felt in this season with all these new teammates and
Speaker 1: with this added pressure and expectation for this team to succeed.
Speaker 1: How have you seen Caitlyn either evolve in that way
Speaker 1: or still struggle in that way?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the biggest thing is that we
Speaker 2: had this extended stretch of her on the bench, which
Speaker 2: is an extremely new role for her. She obviously wasn't
Speaker 2: injured at all in college or in her rookie year
Speaker 2: in the W and so I think for the most part,
Speaker 2: seeing that was just really interesting. Of this is someone
Speaker 2: who obviously is used to not just being a focal
Speaker 2: point on the floor, but like playing to as close
Speaker 2: to forty minutes as she can and having an offense
Speaker 2: run through her where she's involved on every single play.
Speaker 2: You have to step back and watch the game from
Speaker 2: the bench, I think seeing the ways in which you
Speaker 2: could try to involve herself in other ways. You heard
Speaker 2: her talk about, like you literally see the game in
Speaker 2: a different way, that was an advantage point she had
Speaker 2: much experience from. I think in the long run, we're
Speaker 2: going to see that potentially be something that helps her there.
Speaker 2: Of just it's a different way to experience the game
Speaker 2: of watching it, of watching your teammates, maybe picking up
Speaker 2: on things that you don't see when you're on the
Speaker 2: floor with them. You can see them better from the bench.
Speaker 2: So I think we've seen some evolution there. I think obviously,
Speaker 2: as you said, she's still this is her second year.
Speaker 2: There's still clearly moments of frustration. There's still We just
Speaker 2: saw this weekend and she had this insane game against
Speaker 2: the Liberty and they handed them their first loss, and
Speaker 2: there was this one sequence where like she's clearly on
Speaker 2: a heater and like begging for the ball and didn't
Speaker 2: get it, and like she's going to be frustrated. She's,
Speaker 2: you know, competitive, obviously that's what makes her her.
Speaker 1: Honestly, it was probably best for her as that possession
Speaker 1: still ended in a made basket for the fever.
Speaker 2: Ye.
Speaker 1: So in that moment, as frustrated as she might have
Speaker 1: been of like how could you not keep coming back
Speaker 1: to me? I'm so hot, it was also like, oh, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: you guys can do it.
Speaker 3: In that moment, I know that I can leave it
Speaker 3: up to my teammates too.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Completely, Just like that moment of frustration is going
Speaker 2: to be there, But then you get the reminder. I
Speaker 2: think that's important, And so I think it's certainly a
Speaker 2: work in progress, and I'm interested to see as we
Speaker 2: keep going how much that time of being injured and
Speaker 2: observing and interacting with humans in a different way kind
Speaker 2: of shapes how she's able to control that.
Speaker 1: You also profiled Caitlin when she was at Iowa. Can
Speaker 1: you get a sense of how she really feels about
Speaker 1: all this coverage, all this pressure, all this expectation, even
Speaker 1: all the controversy. I think she's been pretty stoic in
Speaker 1: her own way, and also at times has said I
Speaker 1: don't really listen or watch or read, But then sometimes
Speaker 1: it becomes clear that she does, just like any other humans,
Speaker 1: sometimes engaged with what's being said about or around her.
Speaker 1: Can you get a feel for beneath the surface, what
Speaker 1: it really has been like for her to be the
Speaker 1: center of focus now for a couple of years.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, there are so many layers to a
Speaker 2: star like that, in terms of the people they have
Speaker 2: around them, the processes that you have to go through
Speaker 2: to talk to someone like that, that it's hard to
Speaker 2: say for sure. And I think that's a good thing
Speaker 2: that she's been able to insulate herself to that degree
Speaker 2: that it makes sense to tread carefully when you're really
Speaker 2: kind of just entering this new space as a star
Speaker 2: at that level. But one of the things that really
Speaker 2: stood out to me about that trip to Iowa, which
Speaker 2: was a magazine profile in September twenty twenty three, I
Speaker 2: went down so a few months after the national championship
Speaker 2: game against LSU, but before her senior season had started,
Speaker 2: was just how completely self assured she was and how
Speaker 2: it didn't exactly feel like media training. And I actually
Speaker 2: had asked the iOS Idea at the time, like what
Speaker 2: have you done here, Like this is a crazy amount
Speaker 2: of like poise and confidence for a college athlete to
Speaker 2: handle any question, But they said nothing, like she really
Speaker 2: is just like this, and I was kind of inclined
Speaker 2: to believe them, just because it really for you know,
Speaker 2: a college athlete for a college student period, like thinking
Speaker 2: about myself at twenty one or twenty two, my friends,
Speaker 2: other college athletes I've interviewed in the years since, like
Speaker 2: to just have that kind of complete self assuredness of
Speaker 2: being able to answer anything, to kind of know what
Speaker 2: you're working with, to be so confident in who you
Speaker 2: are and what you want, Like it just really was
Speaker 2: a level of I'm not sure if poise is the
Speaker 2: right word, and I'm not sure if confidence is either,
Speaker 2: but kind of a mix of them. That was really
Speaker 2: striking to me, And that like I think you've seen
Speaker 2: Carrie through and I think like some people are just
Speaker 2: made to handle that. That doesn't mean that it's not
Speaker 2: incredibly hard to handle it sometimes, and I think certainly
Speaker 2: like we've seen glimpses of that in the right Thompson profile.
Speaker 2: There were moments where she had got a sense of
Speaker 2: how hard it could be. At some points, I think
Speaker 2: in certain moments in her rookie year, you could see
Speaker 2: like frustration with being that singular of a focus rather
Speaker 2: than it being more diffused across the team. Certainly last
Speaker 2: year brought challenges in terms of losing that were new
Speaker 2: to her, But I think in general, this is just
Speaker 2: someone who is very confident in what she can do,
Speaker 2: is very confident in herself. I think it's been nice
Speaker 2: to see a little bit more of her personality, which
Speaker 2: is super competitive and intense and a lot of fun
Speaker 2: come out this year. This was something we did, you know,
Speaker 2: with the cover shoot. We also had a video that
Speaker 2: went with that of the teammates interacting and quizzing each
Speaker 2: other and like her getting really into that was a
Speaker 2: lot of fun to watch. Yeah, So yeah, that's kind
Speaker 2: of I think from the thirty thousand foot view what
Speaker 2: I've seen from she's.
Speaker 1: Very funny, and a lot of times the humor comes
Speaker 1: out in those competitive moments. I remember I mentioned on
Speaker 1: the show a couple months ago that I had this
Speaker 1: incredible opportunity to sit with David Letterman on a zoom
Speaker 1: for like ninety minutes and just tell him ahead of
Speaker 1: his interview with her the things that I thought would
Speaker 1: be really important to make sure he asked her or
Speaker 1: addressed in the conversation, and things that I would want
Speaker 1: to know about her, things I thought fans would want
Speaker 1: to know about her. And one of them that I
Speaker 1: said was like, I think she's pretty funny, but we don't.
Speaker 3: Get to see it that much.
Speaker 1: So try to find a way to compete with her
Speaker 1: at stuff so that we get that to come out
Speaker 1: and that she loosens up. Because it feels like her
Speaker 1: truest self is just when she's ballin, whether that's literally
Speaker 1: basketball or any other thing.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, I completely agree on that.
Speaker 1: I also think her sort of natural composure and poise
Speaker 1: is partly how she's able to not only deal with
Speaker 1: the pressure of the intense focus on her but also
Speaker 1: on the court, like the reason that she can be
Speaker 1: a clutch shooter in those insane moments and be as
Speaker 1: dialed and as she is. Probably this like preternatural quality
Speaker 1: that can't be taught so much as just is a
Speaker 1: part of the reason that she's as great as she is.
Speaker 1: You told this great fever story. Is there another story
Speaker 1: you most want to tell next in the W?
Speaker 2: Oh this isn't as fun, but one I have been
Speaker 2: thinking about a lot this year is refereeing, which obviously,
Speaker 2: across all sports, people are going to hate the refs.
Speaker 2: I don't think the ideal situation here would be for
Speaker 2: everyone to be like, refereeing is amazing and we love it,
Speaker 2: because that's never going to happen, and if it is,
Speaker 2: probably you have different problems. But the variety of complaints
Speaker 2: we've seen against refs, but certainly last year and then
Speaker 2: this year we just saw Kelsey Plumb really go at
Speaker 2: the refs. We've seen a variety of coaches and players
Speaker 2: call it out, and I'm curious as the league gets bigger,
Speaker 2: is under more scrutiny kind of the systems of refereeing.
Speaker 2: So when we talk about referee pay, referee recruitment, replay
Speaker 2: review as something that is done literally by the refs
Speaker 2: on the court rather than by an off site replay
Speaker 2: review center like is done in the NBA, that's really
Speaker 2: interesting to me. And I do wonder if we're starting
Speaker 2: to hit a kind of breaking point for the w
Speaker 2: to be at a spot where it needs to reevaluate
Speaker 2: some of those systems just in terms of having the
Speaker 2: best people on the floor with the resources they need
Speaker 2: to do the best job all the time.
Speaker 3: I think that's a very worthy story.
Speaker 1: I think you're right there will always be complaints, but
Speaker 1: at some point there's a tipping point for whether it
Speaker 1: affects the product so much so that people are less
Speaker 1: interested or less trustworthy, or even in terms of things
Speaker 1: that aren't a priority but are certain a reality, which
Speaker 1: is gambling and things like that. You need to make
Speaker 1: sure people really think that you're operating at the highest level.
Speaker 3: And it does affect also.
Speaker 1: The value of what you believe you're watching if it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem completely professional.
Speaker 3: So all right, I endorse that story.
Speaker 1: What about a player who you think you'd like to
Speaker 1: do a long form profile on or get to know better.
Speaker 2: I'm going to flip this and go with a coach
Speaker 2: instead of a player. That's okay, Cheryl Reeve. It just
Speaker 2: is so interesting to me the way we've seen kind
Speaker 2: of really a full turnover of coaching in the last
Speaker 2: couple of years, and that Cheryl Reeve is still here,
Speaker 2: has been here for so long and has seen the
Speaker 2: league through so much but also is still doing such
Speaker 2: a fantastic job that I think obviously the Links are
Speaker 2: maybe my championship pick right now. I'm sure the Liberty
Speaker 2: will give them a run for their money. But watching
Speaker 2: what she's done with this team that necessarily wasn't built
Speaker 2: to contend last year, and the way that she's evolved
Speaker 2: as a coach, the way that her style has evolved
Speaker 2: while still feeling very much like the same Cheryl Reeve
Speaker 2: who led those Mayam War teams, is just really interesting
Speaker 2: to me to have a figure that has stayed in
Speaker 2: place as the league has changed so much around her,
Speaker 2: as her team has changed so much, as the type
Speaker 2: of star she works with has changed, and I think
Speaker 2: also as someone who is really like she's always been
Speaker 2: such a vocal presence in terms of the values of
Speaker 2: the league and what it stands for and what it
Speaker 2: means to speak up about that, you know, at a
Speaker 2: time when that wasn't as popular or as easy, and
Speaker 2: the fact that she's still doing that, it just I
Speaker 2: think she's a fascinating person. She's always been a great quote,
Speaker 2: and so she is the one I think I'd want
Speaker 2: to spend more time with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, completely agree.
Speaker 1: Also, I think really interesting to see over the next
Speaker 1: year to what it means for the links to change
Speaker 1: ownership Mark Laura and Alex Rodriguez taking over. That's been
Speaker 1: a pretty fraught transition from the current owner, Glenn Taylor,
Speaker 1: and you always hope that there will be a continued
Speaker 1: investment in care for a team when there's new owners
Speaker 1: coming in, but it's always difficult when the owners are
Speaker 1: primarily focused on the NBA team that they want to buy,
Speaker 1: and along with it comes a WNBA team. So we'll
Speaker 1: be really interesting to see how she also and the
Speaker 1: team fair under that transition and in that new ownership.
Speaker 1: I want to cover the coverage a little bit because
Speaker 1: you do a lot of baseball coverage. How different does
Speaker 1: that feel logistically for you? Before we even get to
Speaker 1: the athletes, but as far as resources and access, interacting
Speaker 1: with the PR staff and the comms folks, how different
Speaker 1: is it when you're going to cover MLB for the
Speaker 1: day versus WNBA.
Speaker 2: Very different in some ways and very similar in others,
Speaker 2: I think, And it was a huge adjustment winning first
Speaker 2: started doing more w coverage just because I mean, MLB
Speaker 2: I think has the best access among men's professional sports too,
Speaker 2: Like It's long been known for that the BBWA is
Speaker 2: one of the strongest Greaters associations in sports media, and
Speaker 2: because of that, they have really good access compared to
Speaker 2: lots of other sports. And so I was really used
Speaker 2: to a system where it's every single day everything is
Speaker 2: open that there are certainly plenty of players who don't
Speaker 2: want to talk or won't talk on a specific day,
Speaker 2: but you can go up to a guy and say, hey,
Speaker 2: would you be interested in X y Z today, and
Speaker 2: like it is between you and him if he can
Speaker 2: say no totally, but like that it is not mediated
Speaker 2: by the pr staff, that is not mediated by the team.
Speaker 2: That is a conversation you can have every day because
Speaker 2: the clubhouse is open before a first pitch, you can
Speaker 2: hang out during batting practice, and then it's open afterward
Speaker 2: and it has to be open for an hour in
Speaker 2: both of those sessions, and it's totally open to everyone.
Speaker 2: And that sets a standard for a lot of access
Speaker 2: that is not really seen in other sports. And I
Speaker 2: think the part that's the same is that it's built
Speaker 2: on relationships and showing up and talking to people and
Speaker 2: just like being open and honest about what you're trying
Speaker 2: to do. And also like what players have to share,
Speaker 2: which sometimes can be totally different than when you go
Speaker 2: into something thinking you might write that's the same. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it is an adjustment to have the system where you know.
Speaker 2: The PR staffs in the W A lot of them
Speaker 2: do a great job and are trying their best, but
Speaker 2: they are much smaller. Some teams really only have one
Speaker 2: person who's there on a daily basis, juggling a lot
Speaker 2: with fewer resources. That's hard to adjust to you. Obviously,
Speaker 2: the daily nature of baseball versus basketball is that is
Speaker 2: going to be different no matter what. But the fact
Speaker 2: that it is every day in baseball really gives you
Speaker 2: a chance to build rapport and talk about silly things
Speaker 2: and just like you know, build points by showing up
Speaker 2: basically in a way that is different in basketball. And
Speaker 2: I think you know, there are so many amazing stories
Speaker 2: in the W and so many athletes like I would
Speaker 2: love to be able to write more on and it
Speaker 2: can be kind of frustrating when it feels like something
Speaker 2: is super mediated by a PR staff who's maybe over attacks,
Speaker 2: doesn't have the resources to do what they want to do.
Speaker 2: Of like, I want to tell these stories and a
Speaker 2: lot of times like players want to talk and want
Speaker 2: to share it too, but they only have you know,
Speaker 2: like a very short window when they're supposed to be
Speaker 2: on the court during you know, either before a game
Speaker 2: or even at a practice, and it's all mediated and
Speaker 2: put into boxes. It can be harder to get to
Speaker 2: a place to build those relationships, which is frustrating. And
Speaker 2: I think there are lots of instances of like we
Speaker 2: both want these stories told, Like can't we get on
Speaker 2: the same team to make this happen, Like you have
Speaker 2: to be a little more open and give people a
Speaker 2: little more space to work in order to get that built.
Speaker 2: And that's hard. But at the same time, like the
Speaker 2: building box of it are the same, but it is
Speaker 2: definitely you can tell fewer resources, fewer people. It's hard. Yeah.
Speaker 1: With baseball, it's a necessity for it to be daily
Speaker 1: because there's a game every day, so every day there's
Speaker 1: a new win or loss, or moment or play to
Speaker 1: react to. And yet also they are so busy because
Speaker 1: they have a game every day that it's kind of
Speaker 1: a miracle that you have the kind of access that
Speaker 1: you have.
Speaker 3: And so in the w there's got to be.
Speaker 1: A balance of fewer games and still enough access to
Speaker 1: try to talk to the players, understanding that they don't
Speaker 1: make the same money as MLB players. They deserve to
Speaker 1: have balance in lives and everything else. But yeah, it
Speaker 1: feels like there's this real push and pull right now
Speaker 1: of the direction the W as a league wants to
Speaker 1: go in and the resources and investment and changing coverage
Speaker 1: that's happening.
Speaker 3: That's going to require.
Speaker 1: A change in staffing and resourcing for that side of
Speaker 1: things too, because too often folks who want to give
Speaker 1: the coverage aren't able to have the access to And
Speaker 1: there are a lot of issues in the W and
Speaker 1: in women's sports that aren't present in men's and that
Speaker 1: includes things.
Speaker 3: Like we just saw.
Speaker 1: Reporter from OutKick, you know, interviewing Brittany Grinder about an incident.
Speaker 1: We've seen reporters who are not operating in good faith
Speaker 1: or don't seem to be there to get the honesty
Speaker 1: of a story, but rather to spin something for a
Speaker 1: certain kind of audience. And on the one hand, you
Speaker 1: want to offer up that that kind of access is
Speaker 1: just inevitable in sports, and that kind of coverage is
Speaker 1: inevitable and you have to push through it. On the
Speaker 1: other hand, it feels like there is a necessity for
Speaker 1: some protection or care with these athletes as well because
Speaker 1: of all the intersectional issues at play. How do you
Speaker 1: feel about that? There's been conversations about just don't credential
Speaker 1: those people, just don't give access to people if their
Speaker 1: coverage in sight never seems to be actually doing any
Speaker 1: meaningful work and is only coming in to stir up shit.
Speaker 1: How do you feel about that approach to still credentialing
Speaker 1: or deciding not to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I also felt my stomach huring kind of watching
Speaker 2: that video of OutKick with Britney Griner, And I think
Speaker 2: this is mostly something I see as an issue of
Speaker 2: the systems of PR and the resources they have that
Speaker 2: do you have enough people to Like I don't think
Speaker 2: this answer is necessarily auto rejecting credentials, but like talking
Speaker 2: to people when you get a credential, work us, what
Speaker 2: game are you looking to cover? Why is there something
Speaker 2: we can help you with? Then maybe being able to
Speaker 2: have a PR staff for present instagrums like that to
Speaker 2: know when maybe something should be shut down like that's
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways just as a matter of
Speaker 2: having enough PR staff to be able to do that,
Speaker 2: to be able to be in multiple places at once
Speaker 2: because you have multiple people. That's kind of what I
Speaker 2: see as the best way to go through this, that like,
Speaker 2: it's never going to be perfect, that you know, but
Speaker 2: you need to do as much as you can to
Speaker 2: make sure that. I think you certainly can't guarantee positive coverage,
Speaker 2: and you shouldn't, but I think you can do everything
Speaker 2: you can to guarantee good faith coverage. And that is
Speaker 2: a different question to me, and that, to me, is
Speaker 2: mostly one of talking to people who are new level,
Speaker 2: setting expectations and then being able to be physically and
Speaker 2: for conversations that might be more difficult.
Speaker 1: I want to ask how Court Queen's is going. We've
Speaker 1: had Jordan Robinson on the show. Are you guys still
Speaker 1: in the process of writing Where are we at with
Speaker 1: that book?
Speaker 2: We are almost done with our book. Yes, Jordan and
Speaker 2: I have been putting together this photographic history of women's
Speaker 2: basketball and we are in the last stages of like
Speaker 2: design review, which is really fun and exciting, and yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just been so cool to work on something that
Speaker 2: takes such a broad look at the game from literally
Speaker 2: eighteen eighty two to twenty twenty five and just really
Speaker 2: fun to look at all these different stories that some
Speaker 2: I had no idea about. Some have just so much
Speaker 2: more depth to them than I realized. Just so much
Speaker 2: that happened in the game, you know, before nineteen eighty six.
Speaker 2: So yeah, we are almost done with this design review
Speaker 2: and then it's mostly done.
Speaker 1: Congratulations. That's so exciting. We can't wait to see it
Speaker 1: all right, last question for you. You do have a
Speaker 1: sub stack called soda Fountain dot com. It's actually soda
Speaker 1: dash Fountain dot com. I have three questions for you.
Speaker 1: Number one, the best soda you've ever had?
Speaker 2: Oh, a diet coke from McDonald's on a really hot day.
Speaker 2: That is nothing touches that. Lots of like fun niche
Speaker 2: sodas out there, but in McDonald's diet coke ice cold,
Speaker 2: hot day, like nothing comes close.
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to tell you something. It's going to
Speaker 1: hurt your feelings. I quit soda like eight or nine
Speaker 1: years ago. But the exception that I make is for
Speaker 1: orange Fanta or orange crush, and I only have it
Speaker 1: a couple of times a year, and it's either in
Speaker 1: Europe when I can get it in the glass bottle
Speaker 1: or to your point, like an extremely hot day when
Speaker 1: I feel completely dehydrated, and even though water would be
Speaker 1: the best choice, it's like I want the water and
Speaker 1: the sugar at the same time, and an orange crush
Speaker 1: just hits the spot, just can't can't be top. So
Speaker 1: it's worth cheating from my role a couple times a
Speaker 1: year for that. Okay, worst soda you've ever tried.
Speaker 2: As a Coke loyalist, I appreciate pepsi has its uses,
Speaker 2: but those uses are not for me other than that. Like,
Speaker 2: I'm a pretty broad soda drinker, any kind of weird
Speaker 2: fruit soda, and like I love trying international ones, but
Speaker 2: in terms of like domestically what I can get regularly,
Speaker 2: it just even like in Arcy Cola, I think is
Speaker 2: interesting enough that it's like differently is distinct enough from
Speaker 2: coke that I can enjoy it for what it is,
Speaker 2: But at pepsi is just such a like pale imitation
Speaker 2: of what I actually love that I can't do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some interesting like Russian and Ukrainian sodas that
Speaker 1: I've been around, but I haven't been bold enough to try.
Speaker 1: I thought one of them might make the list of
Speaker 1: worst and weirdest, but it sounds like it sounds like
Speaker 1: pepsi is the real sticking point.
Speaker 3: For you, all right?
Speaker 1: Last one is what's the weirdest or wildest story Bunk
Speaker 1: covered while writing about soda.
Speaker 2: Great question I think I'm going to go with. When
Speaker 2: I did a survey of all of the coke Freestyle
Speaker 2: machine locations.
Speaker 3: Those are the.
Speaker 2: Machines that have like a whole universe so flavors. It's
Speaker 2: not just a regular soda fountain. It's the touchscreen and
Speaker 2: it's like, here's cherry vanilla, caffeine free diet coke rather
Speaker 2: than just diet coke. Coke runs a map of all
Speaker 2: of those, and I had so much fun seeing which
Speaker 2: government buildings, which universities, which Federal reserve locations have freestyle
Speaker 2: coke as opposed to regular coke.
Speaker 1: There's I've never even heard of this, so you can
Speaker 1: click different kinds of coke. It's like a soda fountain machine,
Speaker 1: but like every kind of coke you could mix together.
Speaker 2: Yes, So probably the most popular location to find them
Speaker 2: is movie theaters. AMC has gone really in on the
Speaker 2: coke freestyle like Burger Kings also have them, and five
Speaker 2: guys and yeah, it's like a giant touch screen and
Speaker 2: it just has every single kind of like syrup permutation
Speaker 2: for like a mellow yellow, a coke Fanta, like any
Speaker 2: coke product is in this machine.
Speaker 1: So yes, well, we'll dive in on your blog and
Speaker 1: see if there's any other SODA's worth making an exception for.
Speaker 1: Right now, just stick with my orange fant and my
Speaker 1: orange crush. Emma, thank you so much for the time.
Speaker 3: We look forward to your future coverage and we appreciate
Speaker 3: you coming on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: We have to take another break. When we come back.
Speaker 1: It'll always be serious, but it was never that serious.
Speaker 3: Welcome Max Slices.
Speaker 1: We love that you're listening, but we always want you
Speaker 1: to get in the game every day too, So here's
Speaker 1: our good game play of the day. Go read Emma's
Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated cover story on the Indiana Fevers rebuild. We'll
Speaker 1: be sure to link to it in our show notes.
Speaker 1: And we always love to hear from you, so hit
Speaker 1: us up on email good game at wondermedianetwork dot com
Speaker 1: or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two
Speaker 1: oh four fifty seventy, and don't forget to subscribe, rate
Speaker 1: and review.
Speaker 3: It's easy.
Speaker 1: Watch a hair pull a hug and an unnecessary PostScript
Speaker 1: rating two out of three stars and one gal who
Speaker 1: took it too far review. Remember that Angel Reese triple
Speaker 1: double game we told you about earlier this week. Well,
Speaker 1: in that contest between the Chicago Sky and the Connecticut Sun,
Speaker 1: there was a moment of tension when Connecticut's Bria Hartley
Speaker 1: made a play with one hand and grabbed and pulled
Speaker 1: one of Reese's braids with the other. While the two
Speaker 1: were battling for a rebound. Angel Rees turned around ready
Speaker 1: for some smoke and son veteran forward Tina Charles stepped
Speaker 1: in to back up Hartley, her teammate.
Speaker 3: Things were tippy for a moment.
Speaker 1: Reese and Charles were drawn after the play while being
Speaker 1: held back by teammates, and they kept john while walking
Speaker 1: back to their respective benches, but tensions eventually subsided. Both
Speaker 1: Reese and Charles were assessed technical fouls and Hartley escaped unpunished.
Speaker 1: After the game, Reese and Charles found each other, embraced
Speaker 1: and exchanged a few words. Reese explained the exchange in
Speaker 1: the postgame presser, Obviously a.
Speaker 4: Little scuffle that we had.
Speaker 2: Obviously she had a stick.
Speaker 4: Up for her teammate, but she was like, you know,
Speaker 4: I gotta do that, Like I got to stick up
Speaker 4: for my team. And I was like, you know what
Speaker 4: that person would like. I love a vet like you,
Speaker 4: I love a player like you. Obviously I respect your game.
Speaker 4: You've done a lot of great things for this game.
Speaker 4: And obviously I love guarding her because I can see
Speaker 4: a lot of the things that I can add to
Speaker 4: my game.
Speaker 3: She has that pro pro probe and.
Speaker 4: Being able to get to the cup and get that
Speaker 4: right hook. So it's great having a VET that really
Speaker 4: wants to talk to you and make sure you want
Speaker 4: to get better, because obviously when she leaves this game,
Speaker 4: she wants to leave it.
Speaker 2: In the right way.
Speaker 3: Love that simple.
Speaker 1: Just another reminder that women are competitors and that momentary
Speaker 1: beef on the court in the heat of the moment
Speaker 1: doesn't have to extend off of it. But with the
Speaker 1: beef squashed and no TECH to her name, Bria Hartley
Speaker 1: should have been happy to move on instead, She tweeted
Speaker 1: later that night quote, my son said, it's not your
Speaker 1: fault you grabbed her hair. It was way too long
Speaker 1: and it was really an accident and the refs got
Speaker 1: it right.
Speaker 3: End quote. Now, I know you didn't just bring your
Speaker 3: kid into this brio.
Speaker 1: As if we don't have replays, multiple replays. Just be
Speaker 1: glad you didn't get a tea and keep it moving. Seriously, Slices,
Speaker 1: check the screen grab in the show notes and tell
Speaker 1: me that doesn't look intentional. That braid is wrapped around
Speaker 1: her hand and her arm is pulling back. All right, now,
Speaker 1: it's your turn. Rate and review, Give us five stars,
Speaker 1: Tell us you love us, thanks for listening. See you
Speaker 1: tomorrow for my conversation with Superstar Women's sports stat keepers
Speaker 1: Jen Cooper and Richard Cohen. Good Game, Emma, Good Game,
Speaker 1: Angel and Tina. Few people who don't recognize that women
Speaker 1: can be competitive in sport. Good Game with Sarah Spain
Speaker 1: is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep
Speaker 1: Blue Sports and Entertainment. You could find us on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie
Speaker 1: and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
Speaker 1: Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer
Speaker 1: Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and Gianna Palmer. Our associate producer
Speaker 1: is Lucy Jones, and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain