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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back George Norie with clinical psychologists Art Wilson Garden.

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Speaker 2: As we talk about Tarot cards. Art, you were talking

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Speaker 2: about psychologist James Hillman who passed away about eleven years ago.

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Speaker 2: But he was a Youngian, wasn't he?

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Speaker 3: Yes, he was. He was archetypal psychologist.

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Speaker 4: Now, one of the things that Hillman said is if

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Speaker 4: we should think about essential psychology, and what that would

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Speaker 4: be is a focus on our innate talents, the structure

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Speaker 4: of character, and what he called the unalterable psychopathologies, which

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Speaker 4: really means life, kind of the kind of experiences that

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Speaker 4: we all have.

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Speaker 3: In everyday life. Now, if we apply that to a

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Speaker 3: deck of Tarot cards, the major Arcona, the twenty two

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Speaker 3: agre arcana, the trump cards, if you pardon the expression,

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Speaker 3: those would be essentially the talents. Those would be our

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Speaker 3: deep innate talents. The Court cards, the sixteen court cards,

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Speaker 3: they represent really the structure of character. They're broken down

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Speaker 3: into student, quester, nurturer, and master in each of the

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Speaker 3: four suits. And then the remaining fifty six cards, the

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Speaker 3: minor arcana. Those are kind.

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Speaker 4: Of the everyday situations psychological situations that we all experience from.

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Speaker 3: Time to time.

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Speaker 4: So that's one way of thinking about the Tarot deck

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Speaker 4: from a psychologist's point of view. Now, the other is

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Speaker 4: the mechanism behind how this thing works.

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Speaker 3: And the mechanism is another Jungian concept.

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Speaker 4: It's all works on synchronicity, and which is a rather

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Speaker 4: magical concept. Synchronicity means meaningful coincidence, and as Carl Jung said,

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Speaker 4: synchronicity is an ever present reality for those who have

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Speaker 4: eyes to see it. When you work with taro you

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Speaker 4: begin to start seeing everything a little bit different. You

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Speaker 4: start seeing it through a lens of symbolism. So you know,

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Speaker 4: you may look at a lamp in front of you,

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Speaker 4: but you'll start seeing that lamp from it with a

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Speaker 4: lot of different levels of meaning. You know, you know,

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Speaker 4: a symbol of light, you know, for instance, and other associations.

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Speaker 4: So as we work with the Tarot cards, other world

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Speaker 4: shines through. As they say, when you work with symbols,

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Speaker 4: it kind of opens up another way of perceiving things.

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Speaker 3: It's very interesting. Art.

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Speaker 2: Are the Tarot cards mystical?

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Speaker 4: Yes, you know, some people like to think of the

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Speaker 4: Tarot cards as magical, others mystical.

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Speaker 3: Some would call them metaphysical.

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Speaker 4: Now the difference is as I see it as the

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Speaker 4: magical tarot readers they're into achievements. They want to change something,

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Speaker 4: they want to manifest something using the cards. Now the

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Speaker 4: mystical readers I consider myself more associated with that. They

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Speaker 4: want to experience some kind of change of consciousness, and

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Speaker 4: they use taro for experience. Then thet a physical They're

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Speaker 4: interested in correspondences, how these correspond to other systems, say

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Speaker 4: astrology or you know, Kabbalah or other things, and they

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Speaker 4: see how everything is interconnected, which is also quite interesting.

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Speaker 4: Now the approach I use in my word is what

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Speaker 4: I would call therapeutic taro. And this is more like

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Speaker 4: free like dream work. You know, in a way, a

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Speaker 4: tarot reading is like a big dream that but it's

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Speaker 4: not coming out of the deep unconscious. It's coming out

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Speaker 4: of synchronicity, and it can be interpreted like one might

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Speaker 4: interpret it a dream. And so that's kind of my

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Speaker 4: interest at this time.

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Speaker 3: With the taro.

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Speaker 2: In the deck of cards, there's one called the death card.

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Speaker 2: If you pull the If you pull it, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: necessarily mean you're going to die.

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Speaker 3: It means what we know, George, this is your favorite

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Speaker 3: question and I always tell you the same. You know,

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Speaker 3: what does it mean if you get the death card?

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Speaker 4: Well, what I always tell you, George, is it means

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Speaker 4: you're going to die.

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Speaker 2: But it doesn't say when, for how.

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Speaker 3: We're all or how we're all going to die.

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Speaker 4: And like every other Tarot card, it points to one

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Speaker 4: of the universal existential realities.

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Speaker 3: And when the death card.

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Speaker 4: Comes up, you need to now associate with death on

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Speaker 4: many levels. It maybe literal death, it may be the

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Speaker 4: you know, transformation or the death of the end of

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Speaker 4: a cycle, for instance, and it opens up a very

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Speaker 4: wide spectrum of sations around the archetype of death. So

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Speaker 4: it's useful because it opens up our kind of intuition

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Speaker 4: in our ways of thinking on many levels.

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Speaker 2: How would you compare Tarot cards to numerology, astrology and

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Speaker 2: aspects like that.

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Speaker 4: So now the tarot actually has is rich in numerology

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Speaker 4: and astrology all embedded in the tarot. Each tarot card

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Speaker 4: has a number that's understood qualitatively, which means numerologically in

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Speaker 4: other words, as meaning we don't think of it as

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Speaker 4: quantitative numbers. But like the number two, say, means relationship,

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Speaker 4: you know. So that's that's a basic idea in numerology. Also,

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Speaker 4: you know, many trilogical tarot readers can find correspondences with

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Speaker 4: actually the entire deck, with various zodiacal states. It works

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Speaker 4: perfectly with you know, astrology as well, also the Kabbalah,

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Speaker 4: which is another metaphysical system. So, but the difference is

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Speaker 4: the tarot is much more open. It's visual, it opens up.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't have fixed meanings the way these other systems do.

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Speaker 4: There's correspondences, but it invites a person to kind of

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Speaker 4: free associate with the cards and find the meaning in

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Speaker 4: their own natural selves, not from a book.

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Speaker 3: The the images actually constellator or you could say, trigger

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Speaker 3: certain realities that we all have deep within us, and

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Speaker 3: they come up and we be in to explore things.

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Speaker 2: Do the tarot cards tell you things that will be

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Speaker 2: or could be?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, it depends on that the reader's approach.

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Speaker 3: I don't so much. I do that.

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Speaker 4: I see the tarot as a deep dive into the

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Speaker 4: present moment. I don't make future predictions.

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Speaker 3: More.

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Speaker 4: It's a deep dive in looking at deeper layers of

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Speaker 4: what's going on right in the moment. Now that goes

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Speaker 4: into my own philosophical sense because I think that, you know,

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Speaker 4: both the past and the future are concept and all

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Speaker 4: that really is happening right here and right now, So

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Speaker 4: I focus more on that.

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Speaker 2: Have the Tarot cards changed your life hard?

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Speaker 3: I say so?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I would say so definitely. It one thing, you know.

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Speaker 4: I've read tens of thousands of people's Tarot cards over

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Speaker 4: my long career with them, and I would say that

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Speaker 4: they blow me away because there's there's so accurate, they're

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Speaker 4: so interesting, you know. It's it's it's a rare exception

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Speaker 4: after reading when a person doesn't have this kind of

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Speaker 4: kind of wow moment, you could say. Because and so

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Speaker 4: for me personally, it's it's given me a sense that

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Speaker 4: there's a whole nother level going on outside of our normal, normative.

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Speaker 3: Level of perception and and the.

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Speaker 4: Tarot taps into that, and so it's it's I would say,

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Speaker 4: it opens up for me kind of a spiritual dimension

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Speaker 4: that's meaningful to me.

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Speaker 2: You started with me about twenty nine years ago when

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Speaker 2: I was by Saint Louis Nighthawk. Remember that.

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Speaker 3: Like it was yesterday, George, My gosh.

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Speaker 2: Where does the time go?

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Speaker 3: Art?

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Speaker 2: Where does it go?

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Speaker 3: My gosh, it's crazy, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 2: With clinical psychologist Art Wilson Carden, who's also a Tarot

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Speaker 2: card reader, we're going to take readings next hour. Now,

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Speaker 2: what do you need from the caller when they called in? Anything?

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Speaker 3: No, I just.

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Speaker 4: Need a question, and I'm going to give them a

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Speaker 4: very fast three card answer. They can take it and

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Speaker 4: you know, if it helps, if it fits, if it clicks,

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Speaker 4: use it. And if it doesn't say anything to you, just.

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Speaker 3: Let it go.

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Speaker 2: Now, when you pull three cards, are you commenting on

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Speaker 2: each one or do you do okay?

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Speaker 4: The first card I'll show is the way it appears.

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Speaker 4: They'll ask a question. I'll say, well, it appears like this,

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Speaker 4: but you know appearances can be deceiving George. Then the

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Speaker 4: second card will represent.

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Speaker 3: What's really going on and.

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Speaker 4: We're just gonna we're I'm just gonna interpret it and

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Speaker 4: they can take that in and see if it fits.

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Speaker 4: And then the third cards will represent what needs to

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Speaker 4: come out now or what where you need to pay

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Speaker 4: attention now? One, two, three, very quick and to the point.

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Speaker 4: And that's that's that's the k t RS Nighthawk spread

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Speaker 4: that I created for your for your radio show back

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Speaker 4: in Saint Louis of twenty seven years ago.

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Speaker 2: A long time ago, my friend, when events occur like

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Speaker 2: Russia Ukraine, do you pull do you pull the cards

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Speaker 2: for your own purpose to see what's going on?

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Speaker 4: Well, you might remember I was on your show, uh

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Speaker 4: the I think it was three weeks after the invasion

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Speaker 4: Ukraine by Russia. I pulled a card about uh A

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Speaker 4: three cards what the result would be? And I got

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Speaker 4: the I recall it. I got the seven of Wands

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Speaker 4: reversed and what I said was stalemate. It was like,

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Speaker 4: where is this going to go? I said, it's going

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Speaker 4: to be a stalemate.

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Speaker 3: And that's what we've seen for the last three years.

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Speaker 2: It has been very uncomfortable, hasn't it.

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Speaker 3: It's been terrible, George. I have a lot of a

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Speaker 3: lot of friends in Ukraine and very much care about

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Speaker 3: the people in Ukraine, and it's been just awful.

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Speaker 2: Do you see war between Israel, the United States and Iran?

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Speaker 3: Oh, you mean together the US and Israel against Iran.

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Speaker 4: I haven't looked at that through Taro, but I wouldn't

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Speaker 4: rule it out right now.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't rule it out either. Yeah, yeah, Carl Jung

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Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about him. I mean, he

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Speaker 2: comes up all the time. He must have been one

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Speaker 2: of the best.

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Speaker 3: Carl Jung.

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Speaker 4: You know, many would say Carl Jung was the one

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Speaker 4: of the great minds of the last five hundred years.

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Speaker 3: He was, you know, he was the number one.

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Speaker 4: Student of Sigmund Freud, who eventually went on his own

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Speaker 4: and created his own depth psychology. Because unlike Freud, who

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Speaker 4: was very focused on early childhood sexuality, Jung believed that

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Speaker 4: the deeper or part of the human mind was really

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Speaker 4: about spirituality, and that the mind, that the archetypes, the deep,

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Speaker 4: deepest parts of the human psyche were about fulfilling and

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Speaker 4: transforming the highest potential of consciousness that we're all born with.

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Speaker 4: And so Jung was very interested in all kinds of philosophical, religious,

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Speaker 4: and spiritual systems from a psychological point of view, among

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Speaker 4: many other things. So he studied, you know, he studied

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Speaker 4: Indian philosophy and Chinese philosophy, and you know, more esoteric

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Speaker 4: Christianity and things like that, but was primarily a psychologist

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Speaker 4: and saw all of these teachings as how what they

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Speaker 4: said about the human mind and the human psyche and

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Speaker 4: what could be taken from them for expanding consciousness and

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Speaker 4: awareness of who we really are and growing to reach

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Speaker 4: our potentials.

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Speaker 2: Freud was also big into dreams, wasn't he.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Freud was, you know, the father of psychoanalysis,

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Speaker 3: and his first major book was Interpretation of Dreams in

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Speaker 3: nineteen hundred published came out in nineteen hundred and so

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Speaker 3: both Jung and Freud, of course believed that dreams were

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Speaker 3: extremely important reflections of the unconscious part of us, and

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Speaker 3: so absolutely I mean Freud also had a metaphysical side

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Speaker 3: that's not well known, but it was understood that while

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Speaker 3: Freud was the thing is early theories, he used to

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Speaker 3: play around with tarot cards.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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