Speaker 1: Hi everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to an episode. I'm so excited about Whipsmarti's one
Speaker 1: of my favorite people is here today. I have had
Speaker 1: the pleasure of getting to know this guest over the
Speaker 1: last couple of years, and really in the last year
Speaker 1: we've become real, tried and true friends. Today my guest
Speaker 1: is Dylan mulvaney. She is an American social media personality
Speaker 1: who has detailed her gender transition in daily videos published
Speaker 1: on TikTok since early twenty twenty two. She was able
Speaker 1: to advocate for her community interviewing the President of the
Speaker 1: United States, Joe Biden in twenty twenty two, during which
Speaker 1: they spoke about trans rites and I'm sure you all
Speaker 1: saw that. In twenty twenty three, a very sweet partnership
Speaker 1: because Dylan, like me, is a beer girly with bud
Speaker 1: light led to really terrifying violence, calls for a boycott.
Speaker 1: A lot of very right wing conservative folks went ham
Speaker 1: on this young woman in a way that was really
Speaker 1: hard to watch. And yet Dylan has managed to maintain
Speaker 1: her composure to be vulnerable about what this experience is
Speaker 1: simply trying to let a little more light and a
Speaker 1: little more love into journeys like hers, and really, as
Speaker 1: she likes to say, the transition that we're all in
Speaker 1: throughout our lives, whether it's figuring out who we are,
Speaker 1: who we love, what we're passionate about, what we want
Speaker 1: to do with our careers. In her mind, we all
Speaker 1: have so much more in common than not. And I'm
Speaker 1: so amazed by the way she's maintained this beautiful composure
Speaker 1: in a world that has meant She's amassed more than
Speaker 1: ten million followers on TikTok, had over billion views on
Speaker 1: her videos, and she deals with both the courage that
Speaker 1: she's exhibiting in the world and how that motivates others,
Speaker 1: but also how being courageous in public can really put
Speaker 1: a target on your back. She is just so inspiring
Speaker 1: to me and also one of the kindest, funniest, goofiest,
Speaker 1: sweetest people that I know, and I'm so excited for
Speaker 1: all of you to get to know her today with me,
Speaker 1: let's get to it. I feel really excited in particular
Speaker 1: to ask you this question, probably of all people, because
Speaker 1: you know, everyone I sit down across from is doing
Speaker 1: something inspiring, is like living their most creative life is
Speaker 1: reminding all of us to be courageous. And I always think, like,
Speaker 1: you know, whether you're a senator or a public figure,
Speaker 1: you know who you are as the adult that you are.
Speaker 1: But I'm always really curious if there's through lines that
Speaker 1: people can see from today's vantage point when they look
Speaker 1: back at their childhood when they're like, you know, eight
Speaker 1: or nine years old, when things are really kind of formative.
Speaker 1: And I think there's a whole other interesting layer to
Speaker 1: that first question for you because of the path your
Speaker 1: life has taking you on. Do you, as you sit
Speaker 1: in your days of girlhood to early shout out the single,
Speaker 1: do you feel like you always saw Dylan in yourself
Speaker 1: even when you were a little kid.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think that was when I was the most
Speaker 2: Dylan and the most feminine and the most fun and free.
Speaker 2: And I actually I stripped so many parts of myself
Speaker 2: away and it became sort of a shadow version.
Speaker 3: Of myself for a really long time. But I keep.
Speaker 2: Refinding those parts, and then they get taken away again
Speaker 2: or I push them to the side, and then I
Speaker 2: rEFInd them.
Speaker 3: I find the courage to tap back into that person.
Speaker 2: But I think like, if I really look back at
Speaker 2: the through line, it's I am a musical theater girl
Speaker 2: nerd who just wants to make people laugh and make
Speaker 2: people smile and see the good and that's like always
Speaker 2: who I have been like since. I like it is
Speaker 2: funny now having experienced so many other parts of life
Speaker 2: than I would have ever expected that I would would
Speaker 2: get to, including my transition, but also career and relationships
Speaker 2: and all these things that I never thought that I
Speaker 2: would find myself in. And at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: my favorite thing is still like going to playbill dot
Speaker 2: com and like looking to see what's going on on
Speaker 2: Broadway right now, or listening to Wicket in my car
Speaker 2: and belting it out with my best friend. But that
Speaker 2: is so me at my core. And the more that
Speaker 2: I can come back to that little kid that just
Speaker 2: wanted to make people laugh and wanted to sing show tunes,
Speaker 2: like that's the happiest, and that is when I am
Speaker 2: the happiest. So I think that's that's kind of where
Speaker 2: I'm at.
Speaker 1: I love that. So if you think of yourself as
Speaker 1: a little kid and what you wanted to be when
Speaker 1: you grew up, are you are you doing everything and
Speaker 1: more that you wanted when you wanted, when you thought
Speaker 1: about your future, I.
Speaker 2: Think I'm doing a little too much in a way,
Speaker 2: like I'm a little extra.
Speaker 3: I'm definitely a little extra.
Speaker 2: I think what would make my my younger self so
Speaker 2: happy is to be back up on stage as much
Speaker 2: as possible and whatever capacity that is. And that's kind
Speaker 2: of the next goal is to get back got there.
Speaker 2: But it's also you know, when people put you in
Speaker 2: a box so they see you as this one thing,
Speaker 2: it can be really hard to then convince people of
Speaker 2: the other skills that you have or the other sides
Speaker 2: to your life. And I'm sure that you've been in
Speaker 2: that place too, with like specific roles that once you played,
Speaker 2: people are like, oh, that is who you are, that's
Speaker 2: what you're capable of. Have you found that being the
Speaker 2: case for your life, like after you do some of
Speaker 2: these iconic projects.
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, completely, Because what I've learned is that
Speaker 1: like our sort of surface memory is long, but our
Speaker 1: bigger sort of lifelong memories seem to be very short.
Speaker 1: And I think that's because you know, everyone's doing their
Speaker 1: own thing, they're not thinking about other people oh so much.
Speaker 1: But it was a really wild thing to like, for example,
Speaker 1: when I first started on One Tree Hill, like to
Speaker 1: be brought in as the comic relief on the show
Speaker 1: and to be a source of comedy. And then you know,
Speaker 1: I did a couple of years of like playing this
Speaker 1: very and I loved her too, but this very tough
Speaker 1: like former addict cop, and people were like, she's so
Speaker 1: good at like being serious and doing action, but can
Speaker 1: she do comedy? And I was like, I did that
Speaker 1: for nine years, like what And I would watch people
Speaker 1: go like, oh my god, we forgot or vice versa.
Speaker 1: Like somebody would be like, well she you know, she
Speaker 1: played this fashion designer who was so funny for so long,
Speaker 1: like can she be tough? And I was like, I
Speaker 1: do all my own stunts, you guys. People just forget
Speaker 1: and that's okay.
Speaker 2: Well for example, right, like, I think the way that
Speaker 2: I've been able to like build an audience has been
Speaker 2: on social media, and it's been really interesting to sort
Speaker 2: of try to steer people from just seeing me as
Speaker 2: a trans woman that talks about her journey to then
Speaker 2: sharing the other parts.
Speaker 3: Of my life.
Speaker 2: And something that's been very interesting to watch is as
Speaker 2: I'm putting out like singing videos, for example, like people like,
Speaker 2: still I've been putting out singing videos for years. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and and someone like I posted one yesterday and they're like.
Speaker 3: I had no idea you could sing and you.
Speaker 2: Go, I'm like, we're wait what, Like We're like obviously
Speaker 2: that wasn't on their side of the for you page
Speaker 2: or or but that teaches me like, oh, I have
Speaker 2: to keep showing them because there's still people that are learning.
Speaker 2: And I think also we sometimes put an expectation of like, Okay,
Speaker 2: we do this one thing, and that means that people
Speaker 2: will get it, and they just don't all that like
Speaker 2: there and even you know, my song came out last
Speaker 2: week or two weeks ago, and I kind of assumed
Speaker 2: people would understand the nuance of the song or would
Speaker 2: understand like the intentions behind a song. And then you know,
Speaker 2: after a few days of discourse, I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I think I need to tell I need to talk
Speaker 2: to people about what.
Speaker 3: This is like.
Speaker 2: And especially I think because my perspective is differ and
Speaker 2: as a trans person, not everyone is going to automatically
Speaker 2: understand where I'm coming from or the kinds of things
Speaker 2: that I feel called to sharing, and so as like,
Speaker 2: there are moments where you have to let people in.
Speaker 2: And you do have to let them whether it's a
Speaker 2: joke or something really vulnerable or something as long as you.
Speaker 3: Feel ready to share that thing.
Speaker 2: And I think that's also a tricky part of what
Speaker 2: we're both navigating, is like when do you let people
Speaker 2: in and when do you keep things for yourself?
Speaker 1: Girl, this is my journey.
Speaker 2: I always assume people would know me as like a character,
Speaker 2: whether it's in a television show or on stage, and
Speaker 2: then people knew me in my personhood from the Internet,
Speaker 2: and I was conditioned to believe that I was only
Speaker 2: as good as my last video, and that if I
Speaker 2: didn't put something out every single day, that I was
Speaker 2: no longer interesting or like worthy of the success. And
Speaker 2: you get to a place where, once you've talked about,
Speaker 2: you know, a certain number of things, you're like, oh my,
Speaker 2: I guess I have to talk about this now, or
Speaker 2: you know, I don't think I'm fully ready.
Speaker 3: But let's let's talk about this. And it gets tricky because.
Speaker 2: None of your audience is ever going to say, oh, Dylan,
Speaker 2: don't share that.
Speaker 3: We don't want to hear that right now.
Speaker 2: Like everybody, they want whatever they can get, and especially
Speaker 2: the people that you know, love you or fascinated by you,
Speaker 2: or like you feel like it's a parasocial relationship. And
Speaker 2: so scaling that back has been so scary because I
Speaker 2: sort of set this precedent that I'm going to share
Speaker 2: my entire life with you and then to be like, oh,
Speaker 2: just kidding, not everything that can be frustrating to, you know,
Speaker 2: the people that have seen your journey. But I also
Speaker 2: think that as long as I'm keeping them updated with
Speaker 2: the why and the hey, I need to take care
Speaker 2: of whether it's my mental health or my relationships or
Speaker 2: so much of.
Speaker 3: My personal life kind of fell to.
Speaker 2: Like the shit show of of like the behind the scenes,
Speaker 2: and then I was keeping this really strong front on
Speaker 2: for for the media and for my following, and now
Speaker 2: I have, like I have, I'm playing cleanup on the
Speaker 2: rest of my life.
Speaker 3: And I will say, like.
Speaker 2: Meeting your group of friends, the you know, Jedediah, brit Julianne,
Speaker 2: like those people, you all have really taught me how
Speaker 2: to like enjoy life and savor things just for me
Speaker 2: and not for Like I think I was confusing going
Speaker 2: to an event as like a social engagement, where like
Speaker 2: it was actually kind of work, like like we were
Speaker 2: there for a specific reason or were there. A lot
Speaker 2: of the times I get invited somewhere to like make content,
Speaker 2: and and that's tricky too, because I'm like, oh, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm here because they want me to do this thing,
Speaker 2: and and when I'm with you all, it's often in
Speaker 2: a backyard around a fire pit, or you know, hopefully
Speaker 2: planning a camping trip, or you know, going and doing
Speaker 2: things with people that like are only interested in just
Speaker 2: getting to know you better as a person, and you
Speaker 2: leave feeling more filled than emptied. And that's been I
Speaker 2: think my greatest sort of joy this past year has
Speaker 2: been like building friendships back up and like savoring the
Speaker 2: little personal relationships in my life and.
Speaker 3: Meeting new people.
Speaker 2: And I don't know that like that group of friends
Speaker 2: did you how did you find them? And they what
Speaker 2: are they to you?
Speaker 1: I mean definitely, I think having really healthy relationships is
Speaker 1: the foundation of a healthy life. And for me, it's
Speaker 1: like crazy to think that it's almost twenty years ago now,
Speaker 1: before conferences were are cool and like you know, branded
Speaker 1: and everybody wanted to go to them. I was at
Speaker 1: a conference meeting other people who wanted to make the
Speaker 1: world a better place, and that's where Jed and I
Speaker 1: became friends. We had been best friends ever since, and
Speaker 1: you know, I was part of the gang that convinced
Speaker 1: him and Kenny to move to LA from San Diego.
Speaker 1: And you know I met Britt through them because she
Speaker 1: had volunteered for their nonprofit right out of high school.
Speaker 1: And like we really we built a community based on service,
Speaker 1: which was always a really big deal. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, we were friends before social media. We've we've
Speaker 1: worked kind of through it. And when you talk about
Speaker 1: you know, what you give versus what you hold for yourself,
Speaker 1: Like I feel that in my bones because I think
Speaker 1: there's something really important to remember about the fact that
Speaker 1: most of us lived a life before there was the
Speaker 1: opportunity to have part of your life online. And I
Speaker 1: think when you are an advocate, when you want to
Speaker 1: show up to encourage other people to do the same,
Speaker 1: to make other people feel safe to be who they are,
Speaker 1: that is wonderful. And you have to remember that it's
Speaker 1: also not your reality. It's a piece of it. Like
Speaker 1: you said, people who follow you and think they see
Speaker 1: your content every day will miss entire things. Now it's
Speaker 1: a big deal if ten percent of your audience engages
Speaker 1: with something you post, So you have to think about
Speaker 1: how many people just don't see things yet, how many
Speaker 1: people are chronically online and perhaps don't even realize that
Speaker 1: in their subconscious they assume that if they don't see it,
Speaker 1: it isn't happening, or vice versa, when you have a
Speaker 1: whole life happening. And I think there's also this weird
Speaker 1: thing where people want the optics to continue, They want
Speaker 1: the numbers to continue, they want they want that parasocial
Speaker 1: fame to continue. You know, now I'm beginning to really
Speaker 1: see through like people trying to win optics wars, for example,
Speaker 1: Like when people are going through big life changes or whatever,
Speaker 1: I'm like, Oh, somebody who's out there trying to win
Speaker 1: the optics war is doing so because they're worried about
Speaker 1: what else is going to come out. Interesting, like, I've
Speaker 1: started to value people who stay quiet and who go slow,
Speaker 1: and who have their experiences before they talk about them
Speaker 1: so they can talk about them in healthy and honest ways.
Speaker 1: And I don't think I could have seen that five
Speaker 1: years ago, but I see it now really clearly, and
Speaker 1: so I actually think it's a sign of emotional health
Speaker 1: and of really good self care when you have the
Speaker 1: capability to say, I'm not really ready to share about this.
Speaker 1: I'm going to take my time and make sure when
Speaker 1: I do that it's not reactive, that it's authentic and honest,
Speaker 1: that it's kind to everyone, and as much as it
Speaker 1: can be, Like, I find that to be really really valuable.
Speaker 1: And so even in our friendship, like we became friendly
Speaker 1: with each other online, but then in the interactions we
Speaker 1: began having offline, I was like, Oh, that's a whole
Speaker 1: person that I really want to know, support and be
Speaker 1: around for. And I really value that, and I value
Speaker 1: that in all my relationships like you're talking.
Speaker 2: About, I felt the same way, like when getting to
Speaker 2: meet you and actually getting to like talk about the
Speaker 2: very real things, like I think because we both share
Speaker 2: parts of our lives, and then getting to share other
Speaker 2: parts of our lives just the two of us was
Speaker 2: so epic.
Speaker 3: But what I see on are you on? Do you
Speaker 3: scroll a lot on TikTok? Not?
Speaker 1: Really, I'm not that great at it. My friends are
Speaker 1: constantly trying to like get me to do it, so
Speaker 1: like I'll get like sections of videos from friends and
Speaker 1: then like depending on what people are sending me, it'll
Speaker 1: like show me more of that in the algorithm. But
Speaker 1: I probably I spend like a night on TikTok, like
Speaker 1: I don't know, every three weeks. I also my friends
Speaker 1: make fun of me. They're like, you're such a boomer
Speaker 1: because every video everyone's ever sent to me, like I
Speaker 1: save so I can like have it as a resource.
Speaker 1: And they're like, TikTok is not pinterest, like what are
Speaker 1: you doing? And I'm like, I don't know how any
Speaker 1: of this works.
Speaker 2: I that is that you saying that you only scroll
Speaker 2: like every three weeks is the healthiest thing I've.
Speaker 3: Ever heard in my entire life.
Speaker 1: I can't do it anymore because I really will get
Speaker 1: lost in it. And like I'm such an adult and
Speaker 1: I get lost in it. I can't imagine what it's
Speaker 1: like for teens who've never not had it. It scares me.
Speaker 3: Well, it's I think it's designed to be addictive.
Speaker 2: I also think what's funny is like I'm it's my job,
Speaker 2: like it's my primary income, and I'm like the first
Speaker 2: person and be like, oh, you don't need to be
Speaker 2: on there every night, like because I am. I really
Speaker 2: like I have a deep addiction to it. I'm also
Speaker 2: wildly grateful to it because I think it's one It's
Speaker 2: very different than like even Instagram, where you know, Instagram,
Speaker 2: it takes kind of a long time to build up
Speaker 2: an audience and for people to find you, and but
Speaker 2: TikTok Is is like it was instantaneous, like a straight shot.
Speaker 3: To the moon.
Speaker 1: It felt it was fast for you.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I think I had like a million
Speaker 2: followers in seventeen days.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, babe, the pressure. And now a word
Speaker 1: from our wonderful sponsors before we go into more of
Speaker 1: this internet identity. I actually this is reminding me or
Speaker 1: just pinging my brain that I haven't asked this question,
Speaker 1: which I think in some ways must overlap for you
Speaker 1: because you are young, you are on social media. You
Speaker 1: have had this really fast rise which has come with yes,
Speaker 1: a big audience and supports some but also like wild
Speaker 1: ass backlash. How you've had to discover your social media
Speaker 1: identity certainly, But has that helped you in the discovery
Speaker 1: process of your gender identity too, or did that feel
Speaker 1: like it was always happening for you as a kid,
Speaker 1: you always knew that you always knew who you were
Speaker 1: and that your body wasn't aligning, like how did the
Speaker 1: first discovery happen? And how does the internet play into it.
Speaker 2: I came out at four years old to my mom
Speaker 2: as a girl, and that was it was the year
Speaker 2: two thousand or two thousand and one. And there's no
Speaker 2: judgment in my heart for not getting to like fulfill
Speaker 2: that prophecy, because you know, it was a very different time.
Speaker 2: The resources, especially for trans youth were so different, and
Speaker 2: my family just trying their best and.
Speaker 1: Well and your family's pretty conservative, right, yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 2: I think what is I've always come from the place
Speaker 2: of like I never want to live in like the
Speaker 2: what ifs, and and even you know, throughout high school,
Speaker 2: I remember puberty was a very sensitive time because I
Speaker 2: didn't like what was happening to my body and I
Speaker 2: was started lashing out and it was fascinating too. I
Speaker 2: actually like I was wearing women's clothes and you know,
Speaker 2: how to purse at school, and like throughout high school,
Speaker 2: and I really like always walked to the beat of
Speaker 2: my own drum. And but I overall, like I loved theater.
Speaker 2: It was my favorite thing. And I knew to be
Speaker 2: successful in commercial theater that like I couldn't be that woman.
Speaker 2: I couldn't be that feminine of a human. So I
Speaker 2: kind of like sort of stripped those parts away and
Speaker 2: got into the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music and became this
Speaker 2: really clean cut J crew type and it worked, like
Speaker 2: I got Book of Mormon the musical right after college,
Speaker 2: and I but like those that gender dysphoria was always there.
Speaker 2: And that's where like the Internet did not really like
Speaker 2: the there are parts of me sharing my transition journey
Speaker 2: online that I guess were helpful, And a lot of
Speaker 2: that comes back to like the support from people, like
Speaker 2: the kind messages, the you know, the messages from parents
Speaker 2: that say, hey, you know my kid's been going through this.
Speaker 2: You're the kind of the link between the two of us,
Speaker 2: and we love watching your videos together.
Speaker 3: Like that makes it worth it.
Speaker 2: The extreme amounts of like hate and transphobia and misgendering
Speaker 2: like that definitely doesn't help. And I have to constantly
Speaker 2: be like, okay, is this work? Like is you putting
Speaker 2: yourself out there right now? Like is this it to
Speaker 2: a detriment of of your transition? Luckily, I mean I
Speaker 2: was on hormones for months before I made my first
Speaker 2: days girlhood video. So that was, you know, something I
Speaker 2: had like come out to my family and friends and
Speaker 2: everything like that beforehand.
Speaker 3: I also.
Speaker 2: Like I went by bay them pronouns for the year
Speaker 2: before I even came out as a woman, and so
Speaker 2: there was like quite the lead up. But I never
Speaker 2: expected to like take it online. I was doing stand
Speaker 2: up comedy in LA and my first video is supposed
Speaker 2: to be sort of this like comedy take on on,
Speaker 2: like a coming out video, and then it turned into
Speaker 2: something so much more.
Speaker 3: But that was it was always such a huge part
Speaker 3: of me.
Speaker 2: And in what's scary I think is like how the
Speaker 2: media is villainizing trans people right now. It's it's quite
Speaker 2: scary because I think back to that, you know, the
Speaker 2: eight or nine year old we were talking to at
Speaker 2: the beginning of this this SPoD and I was the
Speaker 2: least confrontational, least like rock the boat kind of person,
Speaker 2: kid human girl, and so all of these moments of
Speaker 2: like seeing myself being perceived as like a villain is
Speaker 2: so insane to me because I'm like, we're are they
Speaker 2: not seeing the Broadway nerdy theater kid that most of
Speaker 2: my friends get to see and like the it And
Speaker 2: that's where I have to look around my life and
Speaker 2: I see specifically that the women that are in my
Speaker 2: life and support me, and I go, oh, these are
Speaker 2: the people that I want to have on side or
Speaker 2: on my side, not conservative media outlets or political figures
Speaker 2: or you know, like I've got the support around the
Speaker 2: fire pit, and I've got the support from my best
Speaker 2: friend Lily, who has known me for seventeen years. I've
Speaker 2: got the support of my and my sister. I've got
Speaker 2: the support of you just really awesome human beings. And
Speaker 2: if that can be a testament enough to this being
Speaker 2: who I am and who I've always been, then that's
Speaker 2: enough for me.
Speaker 3: But back to sort of like the TikTok of it all.
Speaker 2: What worries me that I see happening a lot is
Speaker 2: because you were talking about, you know, people kind of
Speaker 2: like stirring up just to stir up online, I see
Speaker 2: a lot of like the clickbait stuff is getting really bad.
Speaker 3: That's really bad.
Speaker 2: And I even see certain creators like because it performs well,
Speaker 2: like some really transphobic content that starts getting pushed by
Speaker 2: algorithms on these apps, and so other people are like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's a way to get views or that's a person
Speaker 2: to talk about. And even I've seen like queer creators
Speaker 2: is talking about other queer creators in certain ways that
Speaker 2: it just like it feels really unproductive to like pushing
Speaker 2: us forward as as a community. And I don't know,
Speaker 2: I just get nervous about like, I never want to
Speaker 2: post anything that's gonna, you know, set anyone back. I
Speaker 2: never want to put anything out there that is, you know,
Speaker 2: hurtful to anyone else.
Speaker 3: It's just it's a slippery slope. But I will say.
Speaker 2: That I'm finding I'm finding those moments for myself to
Speaker 2: keep close good.
Speaker 1: I'm glad, you know. I think it is really important
Speaker 1: for us, especially at a time where we treat social
Speaker 1: media like currency, but we also forget how dangerous it
Speaker 1: can be. And I think you have to be really
Speaker 1: really clear, you know, we all need to self interrogate
Speaker 1: and say how do I want to participate in this
Speaker 1: space and what is this for? And I think to
Speaker 1: your point, when we're talking about this rise in really
Speaker 1: dangerous rhetoric that hurts already at risk populations, like one
Speaker 1: of the things that feels really important for me to
Speaker 1: constantly point out to people because I think it's really
Speaker 1: I think it's really crucial that we make sure that
Speaker 1: the people who are the most affected by something are
Speaker 1: not the people who have to scream about it from
Speaker 1: the rooftops. Like, it's the reason that as women we
Speaker 1: need men to be talking about rape culture because hello,
Speaker 1: like they're the perpetrators of this violence by and large,
Speaker 1: And I think is an incredibly important reason why. You know,
Speaker 1: for us, as white women, we need to talk about
Speaker 1: the risks that society has baked into women of color.
Speaker 1: And I think it's incredibly important for cisgendered women to
Speaker 1: be really clear about how dangerous the world is for
Speaker 1: trans women. And it is the reason last March I
Speaker 1: was in New York for a big ceremony for the
Speaker 1: National Institute of Reproductive Health. Obviously, like our reproductive freedom
Speaker 1: is on the line. The Republicans are trying to ban
Speaker 1: reproductive care and abortion, and they're also trying to ban IVF.
Speaker 1: So like, hello, anyone who wanted to say a year
Speaker 1: ago that this was not just simply to control women,
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, the writing's on the wall now. We've
Speaker 1: been telling you welcome to this terrible party we're all
Speaker 1: at that we don't want to be at, and at
Speaker 1: this event. The thing I wanted to point out to
Speaker 1: use my time. You know, they gave me an award.
Speaker 1: It was very nice. It's glass, it's beautiful. I was like, look,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think there's any conversation we need
Speaker 1: to be having other than if we are not centering
Speaker 1: trans women and our reproductive advocacy, we're failing. Because we
Speaker 1: saw in twenty twenty three and it's continued now more
Speaker 1: historically conservative women showing up to vote in support of abortion,
Speaker 1: in support of reproductive rights access because by the way
Speaker 1: abortion birth control IVF, it's all tied. And in the
Speaker 1: states where abortion is the most easily accessible, women have
Speaker 1: the least number of abortions. Like, whether you like it
Speaker 1: or not, these are just the facts. If you don't
Speaker 1: want to have one, don't have one. We're moving on.
Speaker 1: And I said to this room, I was like, make
Speaker 1: no mistake. The fact that conservative women in droves are
Speaker 1: showing up to vote on abortion in support means that
Speaker 1: these conservative folks who only get voted for when they
Speaker 1: can create outrage, have to figure out a new way
Speaker 1: to attack bodily autonomy. And it is why you see
Speaker 1: the most legislation against the LGBTQ plus community in history,
Speaker 1: over six hundred bills at this point. And it is
Speaker 1: why they are going after trans kids, trans athletes, trans people.
Speaker 1: It's why you're seeing a surge in you know, the
Speaker 1: assault in murder of our trans communities in this country,
Speaker 1: Like they are doing this to our most vulnerable population
Speaker 1: so that they can continue to make attacks on bodily
Speaker 1: autonomy seem acceptable, they can make bodily autonomy seem dangerous.
Speaker 1: Like to be clear, my sweet angel, you, being this
Speaker 1: beautiful girl that you have always been does nothing to
Speaker 1: my womanhood but make me feel more excited to wear
Speaker 1: pink and like I'm your friends who's always wearing black,
Speaker 1: And when I'm with you, I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I need a pink cashmir swater. Like that's it. And
Speaker 1: we must be clear, like our communities have to be
Speaker 1: really clear about what's going on, how insidious it is,
Speaker 1: and how we have to show up for each other.
Speaker 1: And I know I've said this to you in private,
Speaker 1: but I will say it on my podcast. Anybody who
Speaker 1: focks with you, fockx with me, Like let's go, we're
Speaker 1: in it together.
Speaker 2: I'm in it with you, And you know, speaking back
Speaker 2: to like the overturning of Roe v Wade. I remember
Speaker 2: it was actually like earlier on in my series of
Speaker 2: Days of Girlhood, within my first year of transition, and
Speaker 2: I was learning so much about not like it was
Speaker 2: kind of catching up to, you know, because I like,
Speaker 2: I wasn't as clued in as shinny women on.
Speaker 1: Well you mean you don't know everything about everything at
Speaker 1: every moment of your whole life?
Speaker 3: Wow, No, not yet.
Speaker 2: And I but I made a video that day because
Speaker 2: I really thought about how what we are asking for
Speaker 2: is not very different, and it is its permission over
Speaker 2: our own bodies. And funny enough, the way that people
Speaker 2: are attacking gender firm and care, A lot of the
Speaker 2: times people attacking it are the people that are actually
Speaker 2: getting the same surgeries but just calling it something different.
Speaker 2: Or I think that there's there's such a deep connection
Speaker 2: between a transnsists woman if they'll let it happen and let.
Speaker 3: It be there.
Speaker 2: Because the more that we focus on our differences, they
Speaker 2: become very obvious and very factual. But the more that
Speaker 2: we focus on what we have in common, that's when
Speaker 2: like true connection and like productivity can happen.
Speaker 3: Because I want to honor every single version of womanhood.
Speaker 3: I want to.
Speaker 2: Find whatever it is in a feminine person, whether that's
Speaker 2: a transperson or this person's idea of what a woman
Speaker 2: is to them, and then I want to be able
Speaker 2: to honor that within myself and not feel apologetic about
Speaker 2: what that means to me. And even with the song
Speaker 2: coming out, people like assumed that my version of girlhood
Speaker 2: or womanhood is this very frivolous thing, or it's this
Speaker 2: very sort of juvenile thing, and it's so not. There's
Speaker 2: so much pain, there's so much resentment and anger and
Speaker 2: jealousy and all these things that are within me that
Speaker 2: are my womanhood. And yet I wanted to make a
Speaker 2: really fun, frivolous song of like two percent of what
Speaker 2: my experience has been. And yet people then, like we
Speaker 2: talked about at the beginning, they put you in a
Speaker 2: box and so they say this is who you are,
Speaker 2: this is who you think we are, and it's not.
Speaker 2: And I think the more that we can have conversations
Speaker 2: like this one, the closer we get to the tricky
Speaker 2: part is is than having those conversations with people who
Speaker 2: maybe don't feel the same way or aren't on the
Speaker 2: same page yet and I've had a lot of those
Speaker 2: in my personal life, Like you know, even with the
Speaker 2: women in my.
Speaker 3: Family who I am.
Speaker 2: A lot of people's first trans person that they think
Speaker 2: they've met, at least they probably met others, but they
Speaker 2: didn't know.
Speaker 3: And I've watched.
Speaker 2: Things get better and and things heal, and people start
Speaker 2: to understand when they want to, And those who had
Speaker 2: a personal connection with me before my transition, most if
Speaker 2: not all, have found some sort of peace with me
Speaker 2: stepping into my because it's it's not to be.
Speaker 3: What's it called.
Speaker 2: It's not an opinion of someone to say that, like
Speaker 2: I am one hundred percent doing better than I was
Speaker 2: like before I stepped into my true self, and anyone
Speaker 2: that knew me before can tell you that. And so
Speaker 2: I'm really interested on those like the granular relationship level
Speaker 2: of like outside of social media, outside of making videos
Speaker 2: for millions of people, when I meet someone that maybe
Speaker 2: doesn't understand someone like me, that I can leave them
Speaker 2: maybe even just a sliver of less resentful than they
Speaker 2: were going in to the relationship.
Speaker 1: Yes, I love that. And now a word from our
Speaker 1: sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too,
Speaker 1: you know, I can't imagine that it's easy to share
Speaker 1: your life and the lessons you're learning with people you
Speaker 1: know you have a very different journey. But I think
Speaker 1: about a guest from season one on Work in Progress,
Speaker 1: my friend May Martin, who you know made an incredible
Speaker 1: show on Netflix. Feel good for everyone listening about their
Speaker 1: whole journey. You know, back when May came on the podcast,
Speaker 1: they were still using both she and they pronouns. They
Speaker 1: hadn't had TOP surgery yet, and I've used their story
Speaker 1: from their stand up special a bunch in some of
Speaker 1: the advocacy work that I do offline with folks, and
Speaker 1: they said something that I thought was so profound about,
Speaker 1: you know, having had tops and having been on tea
Speaker 1: for a year, and said, look, it's not that it
Speaker 1: shifted my life in some way and everything is different
Speaker 1: and everything, you know I'm paraphrasing, but not like everything
Speaker 1: is perfect and amazing and I've never been sad. I'm
Speaker 1: just not in agony every second of every day. I
Speaker 1: have a little space to breathe in my own body.
Speaker 1: And listening to them talk about it, like I've brought
Speaker 1: that up to people who don't quite get it yet
Speaker 1: and said why would you deny anybody the right to
Speaker 1: live with less agony, to be able to breathe more
Speaker 1: comfortably in their body. Their body has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with you. And so I think for everyone who's on
Speaker 1: any version of a journey to figure out who they are,
Speaker 1: we should be supportive. We should be excited because people's joy,
Speaker 1: whether it's finding love or learning to love themselves, or
Speaker 1: queerness or transness or any any version of it, is
Speaker 1: about coming home to them. Yeah, and that I think
Speaker 1: is profound, and I will say, if I may, I
Speaker 1: think it's also why a lot of people who don't
Speaker 1: have friends in the way that I'm lucky enough to
Speaker 1: have you and other folks like may in my life
Speaker 1: maybe are afraid because you're choosing joy in the face
Speaker 1: of so much danger and judgment in the world. Like
Speaker 1: it is such an act of freedom, and I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't feel free, and so they
Speaker 1: are very intimidated by people who will pursue their own
Speaker 1: freedom no matter what, people who will not turn their
Speaker 1: backs on themselves anymore. I think it can be very confronting,
Speaker 1: and it's easier to be confronted and react with anger
Speaker 1: than to be confronted and admit.
Speaker 2: You are afraid, right, And a lot of people go
Speaker 2: to confront my success and my wins and my really
Speaker 2: come up and they'll challenge it as like, oh, she
Speaker 2: transitioned to get famous or she is fit because oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, yes, one hundred.
Speaker 1: People say that to you. Yes, you're like cool, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just put myself at like immense risk of violence
Speaker 1: and decided to do one of the hardest things in
Speaker 1: the world for TikTok.
Speaker 3: No. They were like, this washed up gay man, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, honey.
Speaker 2: I was doing a Broadway musical, Like I wasn't exactly
Speaker 2: in the worst place in the world, no, I But
Speaker 2: what I find so fascinating about that thought process is
Speaker 2: like I believe that I stepped in and told the
Speaker 2: world this is who I am, and that's when the
Speaker 2: world decided, Okay, now we're ready to introduce everyone to
Speaker 2: her because.
Speaker 3: She is who she's supposed to be now.
Speaker 2: And that is the tricky thing about simultaneously finding this
Speaker 2: success but also being in the beginnings of a transition.
Speaker 2: I'm only now two years in and I meet you know,
Speaker 2: trans women who are fifteen, twenty thirty years into their
Speaker 2: journeys and They're like, girl, just you just you wait.
Speaker 2: And I already feel so differently about things that I've
Speaker 2: said a year ago or my first you know, I've
Speaker 2: watched like videos of myself.
Speaker 3: And just like cringe. You'd be like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: what was I knowing?
Speaker 1: Okay, wait what does that mean? Though? Like what does
Speaker 1: that feel like when you when you say I look
Speaker 1: back and go, oh, like what do you what do
Speaker 1: you see? What's different?
Speaker 3: It reminds me of that movie eighth Grade.
Speaker 2: That's like the sort of the awkward you know, like
Speaker 2: in a way, I'm going through a second puberty because.
Speaker 3: My body's changing.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to wrap my head around these really complex
Speaker 2: subjects and stepping into conversations that I've never been in
Speaker 2: before even had heard of before, and now I'm being
Speaker 2: platformed to speak on them. And I I think I'm
Speaker 2: like watching sort of like my awkward self evolve and
Speaker 2: grow and actually taking account of what I can speak on,
Speaker 2: what I'm ready to. And then it's also like, you know,
Speaker 2: sometimes we look back at ourselves and like with a haircut.
Speaker 3: And we're like, what were what was I thinking? And
Speaker 3: it's similar in the way I.
Speaker 1: Got famous in the early aughts. My every bad haircut
Speaker 1: I've ever had is memorialized on television. It's my nightmares.
Speaker 2: And but then isn't there something great about like being like,
Speaker 2: well I did that, Like that was me and owning
Speaker 2: it and being like I really lead to people had
Speaker 2: the media literacy and the nuance to understand that we
Speaker 2: can change and we we.
Speaker 3: We evolve from those people.
Speaker 2: And and while that might have been the reason that
Speaker 2: they liked me in the first place, that me growing
Speaker 2: up and me stepping into adulthood in a more deeply
Speaker 2: complex way is actually what they should want from me,
Speaker 2: and not to be like forever infanto. Yeah, And I
Speaker 2: think with trans women, we often are deeply infantilized or
Speaker 2: deeply sexualized because people don't really know where else to
Speaker 2: put us. And I leaned into infantilization because I was
Speaker 2: so scared of being sexualized that I thought it was
Speaker 2: easier to kind of like put that part of my
Speaker 2: life away, you know, to be palatable, to be liked,
Speaker 2: to be non threatening. And now that's something that I'm
Speaker 2: finding again, like finding that balance of like, Okay, I
Speaker 2: feel sexy, how how do I share that with the world?
Speaker 2: Or I feel you know, ready to tackle this part
Speaker 2: of my life. And I think that's where being more
Speaker 2: than just one thing is important. And Rene Rapp is
Speaker 2: a dear friend of mine and one of her first
Speaker 2: songs was Everything to Everyone.
Speaker 3: It's like, I can't be everything to everyone.
Speaker 2: And sometimes I do think I try to be everything
Speaker 2: to everyone, and I feel miserably because it's not possible.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think I don't know. I don't know,
Speaker 2: but I feel like kind of happy right now.
Speaker 3: How do you feel? Are you happy?
Speaker 1: I am so happy? But it's interesting. It's also been
Speaker 1: really hard, and I think what I've had to deal
Speaker 1: with this year, in particular finally deciding to stop trying
Speaker 1: to push the rock up the mountain, you know, to
Speaker 1: stop being on that sissyphy and journey of if I
Speaker 1: just work harder and if I just push farther and
Speaker 1: if I just do more of this and if I
Speaker 1: just then I'll be happy. It's like maybe instead of
Speaker 1: life feeling like a torture marathon, it could feel like water.
Speaker 1: Maybe everything could be in flow, Maybe everything can move easily.
Speaker 1: And I don't think I even knew until I knew
Speaker 1: that I had just been bred for the hard part,
Speaker 1: you know, I was. I did it my whole life
Speaker 1: as a kid in my house. I did it my
Speaker 1: whole career, thinking like, you're so fortunate to have this job,
Speaker 1: and yes, you know, you guys all work for this
Speaker 1: man who's a sexual predator and he's the worst, but
Speaker 1: he's not here all the time, so just be happy
Speaker 1: when he's not here with your friends. And then when
Speaker 1: he's here, keep smiling because you don't want anybody to know,
Speaker 1: because if the if you girls talk about this and
Speaker 1: the show gets canceled, this whole crew of two hundred
Speaker 1: people who support their families will lose their jobs and
Speaker 1: it'll be your fault because you're ungrateful, like you know it.
Speaker 1: I didn't even know what that taught me. How I
Speaker 1: learned to disassociate, how I learned to always perform gratefully
Speaker 1: and ignore literal trauma. And it took me being diagnosed
Speaker 1: with PTSD to understand the journey I had been on
Speaker 1: in a couple of really toxic work environments and then
Speaker 1: how to learn in my own mental health care journey
Speaker 1: to proudly claim my art and all of the great
Speaker 1: sets I've worked on and the scenes I've loved to do,
Speaker 1: and the wonderful people and to say this was unhealthy
Speaker 1: and I need to learn to separate the two. Like,
Speaker 1: that's really been a journey. And so here I am
Speaker 1: at the end of this year where I finally learned
Speaker 1: that twenty years of working that way taught me to
Speaker 1: do it in my actual life as well. And that's
Speaker 1: so like, what a bummer. That's been really hard.
Speaker 3: Yes, are you disassociating less lately?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Absolutely? And so it's been really interesting when I
Speaker 1: finally decided to stop pushing the rock up the hill
Speaker 1: last summer and be really honest about how I felt
Speaker 1: in my life and how hard I tried to put
Speaker 1: the whole list together and I made everything perfect on paper,
Speaker 1: and and I just decided to let it go. I
Speaker 1: find myself now, almost a year out from that, having
Speaker 1: never been happier, but also having never been more anxious.
Speaker 1: It's like to be so holy. Yourself is so vulnerable,
Speaker 1: it's so sensitive. There are days when I wake up
Speaker 1: and I feel like I've just been beaten head to
Speaker 1: toe by a baseball bat. The Internet is hard and scary.
Speaker 1: I've also left it for months at a time, and
Speaker 1: I'm starting to learn things that I didn't even know.
Speaker 1: Like the closest people to me are like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're really this serious political person on the internet, but
Speaker 1: in life you're like goofy and emotional and you probably
Speaker 1: cry once a day, either because you're overwhelmed or like
Speaker 1: you see something beautiful and it like moves you to tears.
Speaker 1: You're funny, You're never silly online, and I'm like, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I don't even realize, but I feel you, like in
Speaker 1: my bones, like my chest feels like it's swelling right now,
Speaker 1: because there is so much more to us than we
Speaker 1: could ever possibly be on one of these like on
Speaker 1: a frickin two dimensional phone screen, and we deserve to
Speaker 1: be that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I disassociate the most when I'm trying to maintain
Speaker 2: an idea of.
Speaker 1: Myself for us, when you're trying to perform yes.
Speaker 2: And I also know when when I take too much on,
Speaker 2: like work wise, and it gets really overwhelming, that I
Speaker 2: go into that same sort of disassociative headspace and be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: what would Dylan say right now?
Speaker 3: What would Dylan do?
Speaker 1: I have?
Speaker 2: And I think it's it's been so nice to now
Speaker 2: see the getting out from the other side of that
Speaker 2: and be like, Okay, that wasn't healthy. And just because
Speaker 2: you were providing opportunities for others or you were doing
Speaker 2: really well financially or whatever, it was like that you
Speaker 2: were convincing yourself that that disassociate dissociation was worth it
Speaker 2: actually isn't. And I'm getting better at saying no. But
Speaker 2: funny enough, I was with Kenny last night and he
Speaker 2: told me about your you had a year of Yes,
Speaker 2: and they of like, hell, yes or something like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what was that?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, twenty twelve. My best friend Jenny and
Speaker 1: I just we both were like, why are we letting
Speaker 1: fear and fear of failure and fear of getting it
Speaker 1: wrong rule our lives? Like everybody feels when they're learning
Speaker 1: new skills. Everybody tries things that don't work sometimes and
Speaker 1: that's okay, Like why do we feel like unless we're
Speaker 1: going to be perfect at something, we can't even attempt it.
Speaker 1: That makes your life so small? So you know, we
Speaker 1: were moommates for ten years and we decided to make
Speaker 1: twenty twelve our year of Yes, and we just said
Speaker 1: yes to everything. Every trip, every adventure, every opportunity, every lecture,
Speaker 1: every conference, every random night to go see a concert,
Speaker 1: and like one of them resulted in going to this
Speaker 1: place that doesn't exist in La anymore. I'm so sad
Speaker 1: I miss it. But it was this cool, little like
Speaker 1: viby sort of jazzy club. And we went with friends
Speaker 1: one night that we didn't know very well, and we
Speaker 1: wound up at a secret prints concert and Prince sang
Speaker 1: for three hours to like one hundred people in a room,
Speaker 1: and we were like, this is why the Year of
Speaker 1: Yes is iconic. You know, we would have never had
Speaker 1: this experience, and I don't know, it's like it was.
Speaker 1: It was things like that that were once in a
Speaker 1: lifetime opportunities and then moments where we just decided to
Speaker 1: say yes to something that felt scary and it was incredible.
Speaker 1: And the cool thing about challenging myself to say yes
Speaker 1: to so many things is I also learned eventually how
Speaker 1: to say no. I learned what felt so good to me,
Speaker 1: and I learned what felt like pressure. And yet here
Speaker 1: I am, and you know, twenty twenty four, realizing that
Speaker 1: last year I had to learn, I had to learn
Speaker 1: how much I was still saying yes to things that
Speaker 1: I knew somewhere deep down my bones were not good
Speaker 1: for me, but I was really, really trying to get
Speaker 1: it right. And again, I know that that's been seismic
Speaker 1: and difficult, and it has taken such courage to make
Speaker 1: changes in my life. And I know that I have
Speaker 1: it so much easier than so many other people. And
Speaker 1: so when we talk about this like learning to say yes,
Speaker 1: learning to be your whole self, no matter how scary
Speaker 1: it is, again I come back, my friend. I think
Speaker 1: about you, and I'm just like, part of why you
Speaker 1: are so inspiring, and I think part of why folks
Speaker 1: who come from a more conservative bent, who are afraid
Speaker 1: of your freedom, I think part of why you're scary
Speaker 1: to them is because courage is contagious. When you see
Speaker 1: someone be courageous, you go, well, if they could do it,
Speaker 1: maybe I could too. And that is priceless and profound.
Speaker 1: And I know it's not easy for you, but I like,
Speaker 1: I really, I'm just so proud of you because you're
Speaker 1: doing it.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I don't feel that's I think that's the weirdest part
Speaker 2: of when people say that to me, I'm like, who
Speaker 2: are you talking about?
Speaker 1: Well, of course, because you feel like your whole self,
Speaker 1: not just your brave self. You're also scared, and you're
Speaker 1: also nervous, and you're also learning, but you are brave,
Speaker 1: You really.
Speaker 2: Are I And it's so just like a contradictory to
Speaker 2: like who I was as a young person, scaredy as cat.
Speaker 3: But I think I'm in.
Speaker 2: My year of maybe, and I love that I'm trying
Speaker 2: to be really.
Speaker 3: Thoughtful with a yes and with it.
Speaker 2: And what I'm trying to be better about is saying
Speaker 2: yes to things that I normally wouldn't and trying those
Speaker 2: new things out. Because you know, what I realized too
Speaker 2: is I'm twenty seven right now, and I was, you know,
Speaker 2: finding myself kind of over working in a crazy capacity
Speaker 2: over the last few years, and I thought, oh my god,
Speaker 2: what if I like make all my dreams come true?
Speaker 2: But then I didn't have any fun in the you know,
Speaker 2: or like convincing yourself that they're like you were having
Speaker 2: fun even though you were disassociating. And now like getting
Speaker 2: to fill my life out with the other parts and
Speaker 2: like I even have this vision board behind me and
Speaker 2: like a bunch of the things have already happened, but
Speaker 2: one of them is sloth. I want to go camping,
Speaker 2: and I specifically want to go with Jed and I
Speaker 2: want to go with you, yes, and and like that's
Speaker 2: something that I think two years ago I probably would
Speaker 2: have never even put up there, because that felt selfish
Speaker 2: to me to want to go do something.
Speaker 1: That, oh, we're going, we're going done. I'm literally going
Speaker 1: to get my calendar out when we're done with this interview.
Speaker 3: We're going to make a plan, we're going to go.
Speaker 2: I also think that now the streamline of all these
Speaker 2: things were the things that I can make happen for
Speaker 2: myself versus waiting for other people to make them happen
Speaker 2: for me. And I think it's I'm really letting go
Speaker 2: of expectations of others. Funny enough, like Lady Gaga is
Speaker 2: on the board and I got to meet her a
Speaker 2: two weeks ago at her house for dinner and and
Speaker 2: she released sort of like a statement in to support me.
Speaker 2: And that was one of those moments where I've never
Speaker 2: put an expectation on anyone in my life to like
Speaker 2: show up in that capacity for me, and yet she did.
Speaker 2: And that's when like, because there were no expectations there,
Speaker 2: Like I was just blown out of the water in
Speaker 2: disbelief because I was like wow, and I think that
Speaker 2: just goes to show like, like the manifestation is real,
Speaker 2: and also that like letting people support you in the
Speaker 2: ways that they can best and to not by your
Speaker 2: standards but to theirs is epic. And I think I
Speaker 2: just feel so lucky right now. I feel so wildly
Speaker 2: grateful to like have made it through some of these
Speaker 2: really dark moments and been stronger because of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now for our sponsors, you know what, I
Speaker 1: think some of those really big moments, like a manifestation
Speaker 1: of meeting one of your heroes, I think sometimes that's
Speaker 1: also a little bit of the magic of the universe,
Speaker 1: because when you're on the receiving end of, you know,
Speaker 1: an audience of ten million on TikTok, that means you're
Speaker 1: on the receiving end of a bigger audience of haters too,
Speaker 1: And so I think sometimes the universe will say to you,
Speaker 1: you're gonna have this outsized moment to remind you that
Speaker 1: you're on the right path, whether it's with her or
Speaker 1: like you're sit down with the president in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1: Like for me, I think we've been through these generations
Speaker 1: of such enormous social change and evolution. There's no way that,
Speaker 1: especially with some of our older politicians, they weren't on
Speaker 1: like the wrong side of history back in the day,
Speaker 1: that they're on the better side now. And like for
Speaker 1: me to see you sit down with the president and
Speaker 1: have him just one hundred percent behind you and advocating
Speaker 1: for trans kids, I'm just like, this is what we want,
Speaker 1: Like we want the people that are our parents' age
Speaker 1: to get more progressive with age now weren't closed off,
Speaker 1: and like, I don't know, it just it made my
Speaker 1: heart so happy. And maybe because I've seen that in
Speaker 1: my own parents, Like my parents are just like ride
Speaker 1: or die on the train of social progress in ways
Speaker 1: that like they weren't even when I was in high school.
Speaker 1: And it's so cool to see, Like not to say
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden is my dad or yours, but he
Speaker 1: does give off like great dad energy. What was that
Speaker 1: like to sit down with him?
Speaker 3: Was it like was it.
Speaker 1: Easy because he felt familial or was it insane because
Speaker 1: he's the president? Or was it both?
Speaker 3: I mean I still was like, what the hell am
Speaker 3: I doing here? Because that was again very early in
Speaker 3: my journey.
Speaker 2: Really I did not consider it myself a political person
Speaker 2: or an active you know, I still don't call myself
Speaker 2: an activist because I think that's something to really be earned.
Speaker 2: And also there are specific facets of transness that I
Speaker 2: feel comfortable speaking on, and then others that I know
Speaker 2: now that I'm not well versed enough in in that
Speaker 2: conversation too, I think as much as I'm so grateful
Speaker 2: forgetting to do it, I do think there was about
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand trans people that probably weren't more equipped
Speaker 2: than I was for that. But I'm so grateful because
Speaker 2: what that did was that was kind of the beginning
Speaker 2: of when I saw an influx of hate and transphobia
Speaker 2: and going to sit down, whether you know you're for
Speaker 2: Biden or not, to to get that confirmation that like
Speaker 2: the most powerful person in the world is says that
Speaker 2: they support you. I think that was like enough for
Speaker 2: me to be like, okay, I can I'm doing this,
Speaker 2: Like this is still who I am. I have less
Speaker 2: shame about it now because of the situation. And like again,
Speaker 2: and it disassociated. It was disassociative in a different kind,
Speaker 2: like in a good way because I was like basically
Speaker 2: like like playing with the dog in the Oval office,
Speaker 2: and then like Joe Biden gives me a cookie and
Speaker 2: you know, wrapped with like a gold seal on it.
Speaker 3: I was just like, what is going on right now?
Speaker 2: But I do think that like it's it's so My
Speaker 2: favorite thing is like sort of like intergenerational conversation specifically
Speaker 2: usually with my two old women, because there's so much
Speaker 2: that I can learn from them in their womanhood, and
Speaker 2: and when we have those moments, I'm like, oh, hell yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's. I always was the kid at the pool
Speaker 2: party that like was like with the mom in the
Speaker 2: kitchen while all the other kids were like playing by
Speaker 2: the pool and and getting to like watch or the
Speaker 2: women you know in my life that I met get
Speaker 2: to ask me questions, like even you know, I was
Speaker 2: out of dinner last week for a very small like
Speaker 2: screening of a film, and there was a much older
Speaker 2: actress there who an icon and if she sat next
Speaker 2: to me and started asking some of my questions, some
Speaker 2: questions about my transition, and some of them were not
Speaker 2: the most like appropriate dinner conversations we having, especially with
Speaker 2: someone new to my life or you know, just to
Speaker 2: us meeting. But I could tell that like the fascination
Speaker 2: that she had was so pure hearted and also like
Speaker 2: I felt safe enough to like go there with her,
Speaker 2: so I did, and I know that we both left
Speaker 2: feeling really like connected and inspired and knowing that I.
Speaker 3: Had her support. And so I think that, like there's.
Speaker 2: So much beauty that can come from not shying away
Speaker 2: from getting connected like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again that you felt comfortable, you were able
Speaker 1: to take a moment with someone that you know, if
Speaker 1: she'd ask those questions off someone else in your position,
Speaker 1: they might have been uncomfortable. And sometimes I think to
Speaker 1: meet people's curiosity, giving them the benefit of the doubt
Speaker 1: and helping them know better so that they do better,
Speaker 1: Like that's also so important, And that's something I worry
Speaker 1: that the Internet is kind of canceling out of us,
Speaker 1: And I hope that we can begin, as you said,
Speaker 1: to really practice nuance so that we can create more
Speaker 1: nuance in our world. You know that feels like a
Speaker 1: big deal.
Speaker 3: I have a one question for you.
Speaker 2: Do you have any advice for me to like setting
Speaker 2: boundaries and now that you've like navigated this for so long,
Speaker 2: like specific to.
Speaker 3: Like what you think would be healthy for me to do.
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, I feel like we could do a
Speaker 1: whole nother podcast about this, and I want to really
Speaker 1: deep dive on it with you, but I will say
Speaker 1: I think I think one of the most important things
Speaker 1: that I have learned that helps me to set a
Speaker 1: boundary is that our emotional reactions are quick and our
Speaker 1: emotional learning is long, and so if you are responding
Speaker 1: or doing out of a reactive place, it won't wind
Speaker 1: up being a good thing. Learning to practice patients and
Speaker 1: go slow and wait has been one of the greatest
Speaker 1: sort of exercises and also transformative yeah, practices of my life.
Speaker 1: And so we will talk so much more about that
Speaker 1: than our next bonfire. But I'm excited for you. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think even asking the question is so great. I
Speaker 1: think boundaries are medicine, and yeah, we have plenty to
Speaker 1: dig into there. I can't believe we've been talking for
Speaker 1: an hour. I hate it. I want to ask you
Speaker 1: seven hundred more questions, but we'll do a part two
Speaker 1: at some point. But I need to know, well two
Speaker 1: things because I really want to come back around to music. Since,
Speaker 1: as you said, Days of Girlhood came out two weeks ago,
Speaker 1: you are having like pure unadulterated joy as a singer.
Speaker 1: You have the voice of an Angel. Hello, It's why
Speaker 1: you come from Broadway and I can't wait for you
Speaker 1: to get back there. Are you releasing more music? Where
Speaker 1: can people find it? And then I'll ask you my
Speaker 1: actual last question.
Speaker 2: Okay, days of girlhoads streaming on like all the spots
Speaker 2: like Spotify and Apple Music. I I don't actually know
Speaker 2: what the plan is for music right now because it
Speaker 2: was such a it was a very bittersweet experience putting
Speaker 2: this out there, and I think I really now want
Speaker 2: to focus on people hearing my like my voice and
Speaker 2: my actual singing voice, and not just like the fun
Speaker 2: of it. But I want it to be because I'm
Speaker 2: not trying to be like a musician by any means.
Speaker 3: I want it to always be something I.
Speaker 2: Come back to because I have to and because it
Speaker 2: feels like the exact thing that I'm supposed to do
Speaker 2: and I'm not having that.
Speaker 3: Moment right the second.
Speaker 2: So yeah, and now, like like I I just posted
Speaker 2: as singing with Chris Colfer like an old Broadway standard duet,
Speaker 2: and that felt really yummy, And so I think it's
Speaker 2: it's finding the different the different versions of music for me.
Speaker 1: I love that and that too, don't forget it takes
Speaker 1: courage to say, Ooh, I tried this and I don't
Speaker 1: think I liked it, or maybe that's not for me.
Speaker 1: Right now, I'm gonna go this way. Yeah, that's that too,
Speaker 1: is brave, so don't you forget it. It kind of
Speaker 1: feels like in that spirit, you know, being willing to
Speaker 1: show up and experiment and keep try and keep learning.
Speaker 1: All of this period, not only of your life and music,
Speaker 1: but of the last couple of years and your transition
Speaker 1: and your your pursuit of your most authentic identity all
Speaker 1: feels like a work in progress. But if you think
Speaker 1: about from today looking forward, like into the spring and summer,
Speaker 1: into where you want to go, what you next want
Speaker 1: off that vision board, what feels like your work in
Speaker 1: progress as you look out at the future.
Speaker 2: Ooh, I think I need to fall back in love
Speaker 2: with being me.
Speaker 3: And because I was.
Speaker 2: When I came out as a woman, I fell in
Speaker 2: love with my identity and with who I was and
Speaker 2: the confidence that I was feeling in the new joys,
Speaker 2: and then I had that kind of tarnished for a second.
Speaker 3: And now I'm like refining that again.
Speaker 2: And I think as helpful as the support is from followers,
Speaker 2: or strangers that I meet in the street or my family.
Speaker 3: Like it has to come within myself.
Speaker 2: So I also think, like it's funny because I'm starting
Speaker 2: to date and what I've gathered is like I have
Speaker 2: to like I'm the hottest when I think that I'm
Speaker 2: hot or that like I think that I'm worthy, and
Speaker 2: that it can't come from an external.
Speaker 3: Source or like validation.
Speaker 2: So it's all encompassing of like loving the art that
Speaker 2: I'm putting out, leaving that song the way that I
Speaker 2: just apologized basically for like, oh I don't like music,
Speaker 2: I don't, you know, Like why am I doing this?
Speaker 2: I need to like love the fact that I did
Speaker 2: that for myself and claim it. And I think that's
Speaker 2: also is like standing by my decisions and my content
Speaker 2: in my opinions and my identity and not being apologetic
Speaker 2: for it. So I think that's where I am working.
Speaker 2: I'm a work in progress, and I think for anyone listening,
Speaker 2: I just hope that they can see that the transition
Speaker 2: that I'm going through is just a different version of
Speaker 2: the transition that they're going through, and it might not
Speaker 2: have anything to do with gender, but how beautiful it
Speaker 2: would be if we were all just fascinated instead of
Speaker 2: hateful or darkly and deeply confused by people, and just
Speaker 2: found a little bit of wonder.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that because you know what
Speaker 1: I really think it is. I think generationally it's been
Speaker 1: so dangerous to be a human in the world that
Speaker 1: we have been cultured to want the spotlight on us.
Speaker 1: So it's like, oh, well, if you're mad at all
Speaker 1: those people over there, you won't be mad at me,
Speaker 1: if you know, in like evolutionary times, it's like, well,
Speaker 1: if that village on that side of the mountain is
Speaker 1: getting attacked, will be safe over here? We shouldn't be
Speaker 1: attacking anyone. We we have generations of economic understanding, we
Speaker 1: have generations of mental health understanding, we have we know better,
Speaker 1: we can actually create systems that work for everyone and
Speaker 1: don't make anyone feel like they're threatened. And if we
Speaker 1: actually keep everybody safe, we can just all be safe
Speaker 1: and we don't need to judge each other.
Speaker 3: So I can't wait that.
Speaker 1: You know that, I think is like the planet's work
Speaker 1: in progress. But don't but please know that you being
Speaker 1: courageous enough to be yourself reminds other people they can too,
Speaker 1: and to your point, we're all in transition all the time,
Speaker 1: whatever whatever manifestation that takes on, we really are. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so let's do it together.
Speaker 3: What's your work in progress right now?
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I mean really patience. I've had to
Speaker 1: exercise a lot of it over the last year. It's funny.
Speaker 1: I was the most celebrated in twenty twenty two when
Speaker 1: I painted a really good picture for everyone, but internally
Speaker 1: I was the most depressed I'd ever been. I felt
Speaker 1: so sad. Teach people loved me, and then I I
Speaker 1: got free and I chose my joy and I've never
Speaker 1: been more brutalized or lied about. And yet I would
Speaker 1: do it all over again to feel as free and
Speaker 1: in my own body as I feel now, And that
Speaker 1: that's a big deal, because I don't think I could
Speaker 1: have done it ten years ago.
Speaker 2: And the people that celebrate that joy that are here
Speaker 2: and you know, my people, however, many of us there
Speaker 2: are that were here, and we're here for it, and
Speaker 2: we see that within you and in a way like
Speaker 2: I didn't get to know you during that time, and
Speaker 2: I only now get to see how cool that we
Speaker 2: are meeting when we're both like figuring that out about ourselves,
Speaker 2: but also we are like accepting those parts of ourselves,
Speaker 2: which I think is really really beautiful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like early in your transition and when I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm doing so much work to be happy.
Speaker 1: I'm going to get there someday. You know, we met
Speaker 1: and instantly liked each other. But isn't it cool that
Speaker 1: our like deep friendship was launched and is evolving out
Speaker 1: of like this most honest place where we're holding out
Speaker 1: the good, all the bad, all the hard, all the exciting.
Speaker 1: Like I don't think that's an accident.
Speaker 3: No, I just I love you.
Speaker 1: I love you. I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: It makes like I don't know why, but people like
Speaker 2: you or sometimes I'll call jewels and like I want
Speaker 2: to start crying, and not because I'm sad, but I'm
Speaker 2: just like I feel like I don't know. I just
Speaker 2: I love you and I want to thank you for
Speaker 2: having me on today.
Speaker 3: And I love you. People you know enjoyed this and
Speaker 3: I did, so there's something.
Speaker 1: And I get excited too. I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: imagine what what version of this interview will do a
Speaker 1: year from now. It's going to be great.
Speaker 3: I can't wait,