1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Holly Frying and I'm Tracy B. 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: Wilson and I recently had the absolute pleasure and delight 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: of sitting down with Dr Kalinda Lee from the Atlanta 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: History Center to talk about all things history and what 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: keeps her passionate and how she got drawn into history 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: as a career. This interview also covers some of the 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: details of the History centers temporary exhibit Black Citizenship in 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: the Age of Jim Crow, and that's a topic that 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: Kalinda is really passionate about. So enjoy. As we said 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: in the introduction, I am here today with Dr Kalinda Lee, 13 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: who is the Atlanta History Center Vice President of Historical 14 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: Interpretation and Community Partnerships. Did I get that title correct? 15 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: You got it correct. It's a mouthful, it is. I 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: always worry because any time time somebody comes in with 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: a title that's like multi leveled like that, I'm nine 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: times out of ten, I'm gonna mess it up. But 19 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: my copy paste did me. Well. Uh, First of all, 20 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: I would love to hear your story and how you 21 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,199 Speaker 1: became a historian, and what drove you to that field 22 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: and what keeps you going in that field. Sure, it's 23 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: a funny story, I think. So. Uh, my mom and 24 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: my stepfather are academics, so I'm going to go to 25 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,919 Speaker 1: the way back machine for you. Perfect. So I remember 26 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: being about sixteen and saying to them, I will never 27 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: get a PhD. I will never be a humanity scholar 28 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: because I'm gonna do something important with my life. That's 29 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: what I said to my parents. We can, we could 30 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: give you a pass for that. So I went off 31 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: to college biology premd. But my senior year in high school, um, 32 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: I had been given you. You get these school wide 33 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: awards for like the best student in Dada da Da. Well, 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: I got the social science to ward despite myself. And 35 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: then I went off to college and I was in 36 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: this honors program that required that we take certain courses. 37 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: So I had to take these history courses, and I 38 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: had to take these philosophy courses, and again the grudgingly 39 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: I was loving them. So I started taking more, and 40 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: then I started taking more and I looked up sometime 41 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: toward probably the end of my sophomore year and realized 42 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: that I was I was on a track to be 43 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: a major in both of those subjects. Actually, so I 44 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: you know, I had a kind of major heart to 45 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: heart with my mom and my stepdad about it, who 46 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: were all going home, and then I had a talk 47 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: with my father about it, and I'm not I'm not 48 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: going to quote exactly what he said, but he said 49 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: something like, what are you gonna do with that? Esoteric 50 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: bs and um, And so I said, well, you know, 51 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: I'll go to law school. He was a lawyer. He 52 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: ate that up, and I left college applying to both 53 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: PhD and law programs and actually accepted admission in a 54 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: dual degree program that I had devised, which was going 55 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: to be like a pH d a n y U 56 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: and a law degree at Yale. And two years after 57 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: I deferred my entrance to Yale Law, the dean of 58 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: Yale Law School called me and he said, young lady, 59 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: you're holding somebody's seat. What are you gonna do? And 60 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: I had, you know, just this like flash moment, and 61 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: I said, I'm not coming. And so that set me 62 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: off on a path to figure out what I was 63 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: going to do with this history degree. I ended up 64 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: in a kind of really circuitous way recognizing that what 65 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: was really setting my heart on fire as I lived 66 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: and worked in schooled in New York was this kind 67 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: of public humanities thing. I didn't necessarily want to be 68 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: in a classroom. I wanted to maybe do documentary filmmaking 69 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,119 Speaker 1: or museums or like. It was that stuff that got 70 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: me excited, the connections between the past in the present, 71 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: the so wet stuff that got me excited, and the 72 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: seeing people kind of come alive and be excited about 73 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: making those connections. And so it was a fairly long, 74 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: circuitous route. I won't take you through all of it, 75 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: but I will say I worked for a nonprofit arts organization. 76 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: I managed um a Contemporary, a nonprofit contemporary art museum. 77 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: I've worked in a few museums. I actually at one 78 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: point second guest myself and thought like this is a 79 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: kind of rough road, and did accept a professorship position. 80 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: I was a professor of history at UM Loyola University 81 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: of Chicago. But I just kept coming back to this 82 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: need to do programming and kind of what we call 83 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: public history. So I went back. I got a PhD 84 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: in American Studies from Emory University, and I've I've been 85 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: keeping it moving in the public humanities for a good 86 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: little while now, gosh almost, it's been twenty years almost 87 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: since I earned my doctorate, so it's been a minute. 88 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: You're such a busy bee, You're like a super striver. 89 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: I have a theory that probably part of why you 90 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: are so good at making those connections is because your 91 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: background is from a disparate assortment of study, which gives 92 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: you a broader sense of the world. I think if 93 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: you've already studied medicine and biology and then considered law, 94 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: and then looking at other parts of the humanities history, 95 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: you see the vast expanse of history instead of the 96 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: way people tend to think of it, which is edicts 97 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: from thrones and in seats of government, and there's so 98 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: much more going on, which I love. Yeah, I think 99 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: that's really true. And I think that the other thing 100 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: that's really true for me, is cliche as it might sound, 101 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: is I'm really clear that this work is on purpose 102 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: for me. And if there's anything I suggest to anybody, 103 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: let's figure out what that work is. It's on purpose 104 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: for you. Sometimes people talk about it in terms of 105 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: your passion, but I'll tell you, every single day, I 106 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: don't wake up feeling passionate about what's on my task. 107 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: But I do know that it's on purpose for me, 108 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: and that means that there's there's something I can bring 109 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: to this. There's some energy, some sparks, some inspiration, some 110 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: knowledge that is unique to me. Then nobody else can 111 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: kind of bring to this and so um that matters 112 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: to me tremendously, And it matters to me that people 113 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: connect with their own passions about history, because the truth is, 114 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: people actually love history. People are always talking history. They 115 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: didn't like history class, but they love history. They want 116 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: to know what came before them. They want to say, 117 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: like Grandma, tell me why. They want to know about 118 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: great so and so and so. They want to make 119 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: connections in that way. They want to figure out how 120 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: to learn the lessons of the path, from the lessons 121 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: of the past to kind of plan for brighter future 122 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: because people want those tools, but they don't want to 123 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: know exactly what year so and so crossed the bridge 124 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: or you know, that's what they're not as interested in. 125 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: And even as a history professor, I used to tell 126 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: my students all the time, I don't care about that. 127 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: I really don't. If you understand generally what happened and why, 128 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: the factors that have been motivating people over time, the 129 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: interactions between people. You'll put it together in your head 130 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: like you'll be able to sequence it. You'll you'll be 131 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: able to make sense of it. Um. And that's what 132 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in. I love you. Uh. We always 133 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: say that the memorization of names and dates is what 134 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: kills kids interest in history very early on, because history 135 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: is full of a lot of great, weird stuff. But 136 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: when that's kind of what you're getting fed to regurgitate, 137 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: it robs it of all of its beauty. I think 138 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: I read a tweet that someone wrote after seeing you 139 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: speak in which they quoted you saying to do good history, 140 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: you have to do all the history. And I love 141 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: that quote. Will you talk a little bit about what 142 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: that means? Sure? So one thing I would say is 143 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: history is most society is great form of propaganda, right 144 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: because the history isn't what happened in the past. History 145 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: is ascribing meaning to what happened in the past. That's 146 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: what history is. That's what it means to do history. 147 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: And so if you look at national projects as far 148 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: back as we can imagine, like you know, we can 149 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: look at ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians and like when we 150 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: see what their governments were up to. A lot of 151 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: it was about creating a narrative and then getting people 152 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: to kind of align with that. And what that means 153 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: is that you're always doing the selective work, you're always editing. 154 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: What I am really passionate about is doing all of it. 155 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: Let's remove ourselves from this this process of trying to 156 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: edit folks out, trying to edit dissension out, trying to 157 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: edit conflict out, trying to edit the messy bits that 158 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: don't fit into that narrative out, the messy bits that 159 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: don't fit into the meta narrative. That's the interesting stuff. 160 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: That's the stuff um that well. One, it's interesting because 161 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: nobody taught it to you. And too, it's interesting because 162 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: it aligns with what we already know about life, which 163 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: is that we don't just get in line and think 164 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: about it all the same way and do it all 165 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 1: the same way. And while the victors may write the history, 166 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: their stories are not all of the stories. So I 167 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: am about the business of doing it all. So in 168 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: my real of the Atlanta History Center, what that means 169 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: is it's not just about the politicians and the business leaders, 170 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: and you know, thinking about who made history in that way, 171 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: it's about the ordinary people who every day make the 172 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: decisions in their communities and in their in their churches 173 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: and in their families, who really make history. And the 174 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: example that I always give people when they ask me 175 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: about that, as I say, people always talk about Atlanta 176 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: an entrepreneurship, right, and this kind of new self rising narrative, 177 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: And they say, you know, it was about business and 178 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: the creation of manufacturing down here after the Civil War 179 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: that really distinguished Atlanta from other Southern cities and ultimately 180 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: helped to make it this bigger southern city, maybe even 181 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 1: the capital of the New South. And they talk about 182 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: the business leaders who pushed that forward. And I say, well, 183 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 1: let's talk about the child laborers, whose efforts are entirely unsung. 184 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: But if it wasn't for them in those textile meals, 185 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 1: if it wasn't for them taking care of other people's 186 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: babies when they were yet babies themselves, then we wouldn't 187 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: have had any of that. So let's look at their stories, 188 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: even if we don't know their names. I love it. 189 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 1: Um This ties nicely into my next question because I 190 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: want to talk to you about the exhibit that just 191 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: opened a couple of weeks ago, Black Citizenship in the 192 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: Age of Jim Crow. And I love it because it 193 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: busts a lot of myths, um and it tells the 194 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: whole story, which I really love. Will you talk a 195 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: little bit about the genesis of that exhibit coming to Atlanta? Sure? So. 196 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: Black Citizenship in the Age of Jim Crow was curated 197 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: by New York Historical Society, and they curated it from 198 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: the beginning with the intention that it be a traveling exhibition. 199 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: Was done in collaboration UM with the Guilt Guilder Layman 200 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: Institute and with the National Museum of African American History, UM, 201 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian Institution, and what they were attempting to do 202 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: was at least twofold. One thing was to say, like, 203 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: let's look at this period of history beginning in reconstruction 204 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: that often gets short shrift. Right we go like right 205 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: from in African American history, will go from Civil War 206 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: to civil rights. UM. In Southern history, as it's kind 207 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: of generally understood, there's this crazy meta narrative that talks 208 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: about the Civil War and then this period of like 209 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: failure and reconstruction and then we're into World wars um, 210 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: and so they want to really look at They wanted 211 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,599 Speaker 1: to really look at that period of African American engagement 212 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: and agency and struggle for full citizenship, that that are 213 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 1: those kind of forgotten years. So that was one thing. 214 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: The other thing that they wanted to do, because they're 215 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: in New York, was to say, this whole gem Crow 216 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: story is not just the Southern story, It's a national story, um. 217 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: And what are the implications of that. Let's look at 218 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 1: for them our own history and really understand the ways 219 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: that not only that that happened back then, but what 220 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: it means to us now, what the legacy is, um. 221 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: And so we were compelled by that. We went to 222 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: visit in New York. We were really compelled by what 223 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: we saw, but we wanted to change it some We 224 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: wanted to augment it some. One thing that I was 225 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: really concerned about as an historian is that Atlanta figures 226 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: really prominently in that story, and Atlanta does not talk 227 00:12:55,520 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: about that era of history. We often talk about the 228 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: Civil War. We love to naval gays about the Civil War. 229 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: Right and then and then we just apparently sat down 230 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: and waited for Martin Luther King to be born, and 231 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: so that's not the way it went, and we need 232 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: to really dig into that. And we have some singular 233 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: aspects of our local and regional history that really contribute 234 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: to that story and and our huge MythBusters about how 235 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: UM politically, socially, economically active African Americans have been in 236 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: trying to achieve equity throughout their history, and so UM, 237 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: fortunately and New York was amenable to a pretty major 238 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: UM augmentation amplification of that traveling exhibition, and we set 239 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: about the work of doing that here in partnership with 240 00:13:55,559 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: two major institutions, the Atlanta University Center Library and UM 241 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: Spellman College. And hopefully we'll get a chance to talk 242 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: about why them and who else helped. You mentioned that 243 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: you added additional context to this exhibit by including a 244 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: number of Atlanta specific elements both throughout it, and then 245 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: there's a beautiful room full of art at the end 246 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: that I was just blown away by. UM. Will you 247 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: talk about those additions, how you chose what you were 248 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: going to add, Maybe that big regimental flag that UM 249 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: kind of had me near tears. UM, there are a 250 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: lot of really amazing pieces in that show. Yeah, UM, 251 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: I would love to talk about the things that we 252 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: added in Atlanta, UM as we think about black citizenship 253 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: in the quest for full equity. So let's begin at 254 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: the beginning with the United States Colored Troops regimental flag. 255 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: That flag was painted by, first of all, artist of 256 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: quite some note, even Bustle Bowser. UM. Try to say 257 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: that fast five times always. It's a tongue twister. So 258 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: it's a beautiful artifact in and of itself. Right, It's 259 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: a hand painted, wonderful flag that UM has the motto 260 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: in it, let us prove ourselves men. The motto is 261 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: let us prove ourselves men, and it says everything, UM 262 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: about what African American men who joined the fight to 263 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: make sure that the Union won the Civil War? Uh, 264 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: we're thinking of and so two hundred and sixty five 265 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: thousand black men officially joined this struggle. Pause for a 266 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: moment and think about that. That narrative has been written 267 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: again and again as if African Americans were emancipated but 268 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: did nothing to affect their own emancipation. So that's number 269 00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: one agency in really turning the tide in the war. 270 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: And think about also what it means for people who 271 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: had been enslaved, and even those who were free to 272 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: have been at best second class citizens wherever they might 273 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: have lived in this country. To dedicate themselves to the 274 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: cause of keeping the Union intact, proving their patriotism, their manhood, 275 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: their humanity, um and earning, as it were, uh their 276 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: right to American citizenship. It completely subverts this narrative of 277 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: people trying to suggest that anything was given them. So 278 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,359 Speaker 1: that's the first thing. And then, you know, it also 279 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: makes us rethink what reconstruction then meant, because as soon 280 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: as the war was one by the North, one of 281 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: the things that was required was that African Americans be 282 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: um emancipated and afforded citizenship rights. And that meant for 283 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: black men that they gained the right to vote. And 284 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: not only did they gain the right to vote, but 285 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: they gained the right to represent themselves in elected office. 286 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: So by eighteen sixty eight there was one national representative 287 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: and three state representatives in the state House who were 288 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: African Americans, and a number of other African American elected 289 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: officials throughout the state. There's some really substantial things to 290 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: think about in terms of this. Two of the people 291 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: who were UM state legislators had been enslaved. Imagine that 292 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: these are people who weren't even allowed to read and 293 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: write right and who had learned to do these things 294 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: in any case, and we're about the business of representing 295 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: the state. One of them, in particular, Tunas Campbell. We 296 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: do UM a museum theater piece in the exhibition about 297 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: so if you come on the weekends, you'll get to 298 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: meet the past through Tunis Campbell. And one of the 299 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: things that Tunas talks about in that experience is how 300 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: he on his elected seat on UM the basis of 301 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: a campaign that advocated for universal schooling, which had not 302 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: been available for whites or black So universal primary and 303 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: secondary education, land redistribution not only for African Americans who 304 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: had toiled for generations without any compensation, but also for 305 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: white Yellomen farmers, and a more equitable distribution of wealth 306 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: and political power throughout the state. Imagine that this is 307 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty eight, and there's no way that he or 308 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: Aaron Bradley or Henry McNeil Turner, the other two who served, 309 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: were elected without the support of both African Americans and whites. 310 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: So there was a moment, there was a very interesting 311 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: moment in eighteen sixty eight, nine, eighteen sixty eight, when 312 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: these people were putting forth really progressive ideas and were 313 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: voted into your office. And even though they were pushed out, Um, 314 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: even though there was an incredible backlash, UM, even though 315 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: it began right then began this rise of vitriolic white supremacy, 316 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: violent white supremacy, the rise of the KKK, and then 317 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: it's rebirth of nineteen fifteen at Stone Mountain. Um right 318 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: here in Georgia. Even though all of those things were happening, 319 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: these people and their progeny persisted in this fight to 320 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: be included. They kept going back to vote again. When 321 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: the three representatives from Georgia were ousted physically ousted from 322 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: the state House, they went to the president and they said, 323 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: you made a promise, we have a constitution, we need 324 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: to be reinstated. And they were reinstated, at least for 325 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: a period of time before Jim Crow laws really made 326 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: it impossible for them to assume those seats. Tunas Campbell 327 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: fought and fought and fought and fought to such an 328 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: extent that he was threatened with process acution. They were 329 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: gonna charge him with malfeasance in office, and they said, 330 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: but if you leave, if you abandon this, if you 331 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: go away, then we will leave you alone. We won't 332 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: pursue you. And he he stayed, and he fought the fight, 333 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: and he was imprisoned and sentenced to hard labor. So 334 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: it's essentially re enslaved. And then and then he left. 335 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: And when he was finally free from that, he left 336 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: and wrote a book called of My Sufferings in the 337 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: State of Georgia. UM. But you know, these people are 338 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: not just individuals who are interesting to know. They represent, 339 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: if you forget all of their names, they represent an 340 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: effort to represent themselves to access this basic kind of 341 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: American dream of autonomy and equity. UM. And they were 342 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: courageous in the face of some obstacles that I'm not 343 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: quite sure I would be willing to be so courageous 344 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: in the face of. And then you mentioned the art, 345 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: so UM. There are two other things that I want 346 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: to mention about the exhibition, UM. And what we added. 347 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: One thing is that we focused on uh, one thing 348 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: that was singular in Atlanta, and that is one of 349 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: the ways that African Americans fought, if you will, for citizenship, 350 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: for equity, was to educate themselves. Uh. It was clear 351 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: right that the powers that be had understood how dangerous 352 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: education could be because it was forbidden. And so they 353 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: formed schools UM in order to not only learn to 354 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: read and write, but affect you know, the promise of 355 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: of of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for everyone. 356 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: And in Atlanta they founded the Atlanta University Center. Ultimately 357 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: five distinct schools that ultimately in nine came together under 358 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: that consortium. It is the largest institution of learning that 359 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: is the center all of the schools together for African 360 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: Americans in the country to this day. UM. And those 361 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: schools were founded immediately in the wake of emancipation. Imagine 362 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: what it means. Atlanta didn't even have a public high 363 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: school for African Americans until nineteen twenty four. And in 364 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: eighteen sixties, seven, eighteen sixty eight, you know, eighteen eighty one, 365 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,719 Speaker 1: you're forming institutions of higher learning. That was incredible, and 366 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: people were coming out of those institutions who changed the 367 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 1: course of life in this place. They settled here in Atlanta, 368 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: many of them. UM. They agitated for rights here. They 369 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: built other schools, they formed businesses, they ran for political office, 370 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: even though they weren't allowed to do so. So all 371 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: these wonderful things were happening. And one of the key 372 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: things that happened, UM was that um w E. B. 373 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: Du Bois, who was a professor at Atlanta University, ultimately 374 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: went on to be the major founder of the National 375 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: Association for the Advancement of Colored People end up cp 376 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: So Atlanta was really a crisciple of African American action 377 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 1: and and struggle, UM and and brilliance, an agency in 378 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: achieving full humanity, human rights even more than civil rights. 379 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: And it completely belies its notion that African Americans, and 380 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: especially African Americans in the South were complacent in the 381 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: face of their subjugation. They were not. There's one of 382 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: the my favorite pieces is that beautiful portrait that's blown 383 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: up of all of the educators together with the talker 384 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: next to it, that is each one. It was so 385 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: moving asign from the fact that just like those dresses 386 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: are gorgeous, um, but it really is like you realize, 387 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: at a time when we don't think of necessary, I mean, 388 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: I can't imagine one in the ideal circumstances creating what 389 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: became such an incredibly rich educational history. But then to 390 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: think about the fact that this was not the best 391 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: of circumstances and they were fighting tooth and nail every way. 392 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 1: It's like, if that doesn't inspire people, I don't know 393 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: what will. Um. I get choked up just talking about 394 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: it because I love it so much. Um, We've been 395 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: talking about all of these things that are really separate 396 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: from the narrative we often get, which leaves out this 397 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: period of black agency in Atlanta but also was going 398 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: on in other places. Why do you think that's been 399 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: so downplayed over the years. One of the ways that 400 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 1: the repression of African Americans, but I would say, like, 401 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: you know, one of the ways that the repression of 402 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: anybody is legitimated is to suggest that they didn't want 403 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: anything better for themselves, that they weren't struggling for anything 404 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: better for themselves, um, that they weren't capable of anything 405 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: better for themselves. And that narrative, unfortunately, is really still 406 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: with us. Right. So you make people responsible for their 407 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: own marginalization in one way or another, and that narrative 408 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: kind of lets that's a bigger society off the hook, 409 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: but it also lets all of us as individuals off 410 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: the hook. Right, like I don't have to think about 411 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: that on my way to get groceries or right, I 412 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: don't have to do this work for other people because, 413 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: for goodness sake, they're happy, and you know, they're not 414 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: even doing that work for themselves. So I think it 415 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: serves a really important purpose um consciously and sometimes even 416 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: subconsciously UM to suggest that folks weren't always seeking freedom 417 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: and equity. But we know better that narrative, certainly in 418 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: African American history, extends for as long as there's been 419 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 1: such a thing as African Americans, um, which is to say, 420 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: you know, when people were captured in Africa, they weren't 421 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: African Americans, they were Africans, um, who were enslaved. So 422 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: slaves weren't brought from Africa. African people were brought to 423 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: America and enslaved. And from the moment of that capture, 424 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: we have all of these examples of how people human 425 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: beings have a will to freedom, have a will to 426 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: to autonomy, have a will to self expression, and people 427 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: have been engaging in and fighting for the rights for 428 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: that to be seen and understood and respected forever. Um. 429 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: So there were not there was not a reality to 430 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 1: happy slaves. There was not a reality to Jim Crow, 431 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: just meaning that you were separate over here and I 432 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: was separate over there. In fact, very much was about 433 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: legitimating how some people are lesser than other people and 434 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: what that means in terms of their access. One of 435 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: the things I love about the Traveling Exhibition UM, the 436 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: part that was curated in New York, that you can 437 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: see UM in Atlanta and elsewhere when it moves on, 438 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 1: is how they really do a great job in talking 439 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: about Jim Crow and the way that Jim Crow is 440 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: not just separate but equal. Jim Crow is about very 441 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: specifically saying African Americans are not suited for equity. If 442 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: you allow African Americans to fully participate in this democracy, 443 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: they will destroy it. Right. So, Jim Crow, this caricature, 444 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: and Zip Coon his cousin are are the people who 445 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: are responsible for for crime. And they are the people 446 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: who are responsible for poor governance, and they are the 447 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: people who are responsible for our general lack of safety. 448 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: They are the people who would be responsible for the 449 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: fall of European civilization as we we know it. If 450 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: you pause for a moment and think about that, then 451 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: you would understand that even though separate but Equal is 452 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: no longer with us, the ideologies of Jim Crow are 453 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: very much still alive. Um. So, so there there's lots 454 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: there I think to unpack. And the other thing I 455 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: would say with regard to your question is that there 456 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: are so many ways to resist. Everybody is not a marcher, 457 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: everybody's not running for office. Some people paint, some people 458 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: write poetry. Um, you know. Some people each one teach one. 459 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: Some people become teachers and help people develop the critical 460 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: thinking skills to make decisions for themselves. There are lots 461 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: and lots and lots of ways to resist, and there 462 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: are lots and lots of ways to express yourself. Because 463 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 1: I think sometimes when we talk about resistance, then we 464 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: place everybody in this context of reacting to something, and 465 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: just being fully human doesn't have to be a reaction 466 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: to people who think you're not fully human. Just being 467 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: fully human is just all of our drive to be 468 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, fully ourselves, and so African Americans never, not 469 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: at any point in their history, stopped trying to do that. 470 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: One of the things I love about this exhibit is 471 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: that there is um a way in which it breaks 472 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: down concepts for people in very simple ways that are 473 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: easy to digest. There's a great segment on it where 474 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: it talks about voter suppression, and it's kind of a simple, 475 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: but very illustrative kind of board of interactive flip sections. 476 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: Will you talk a little bit about sort of balancing 477 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: those kind of interactive things with your more I won't 478 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: even say standard because it's that doesn't really encapsulate what 479 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: it is, but sort of what people would expect of 480 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: more static imagery with with text commentary attached, and how 481 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: you balance all of those out to make one big 482 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: cohesive idea in an exhibition. So one thing we're really 483 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: proud of at the Atlanta History Center is how we 484 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: like to take big, sometimes hard, daunting topics and make 485 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: them accessible for visitors of any age, of any educational level, 486 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: of any background. As a professor, I learned that talking 487 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: at people never ever works in terms of retaining any 488 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: kind of meaningful knowledge, right. It's about kind of planting 489 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: enough seeds so that people come to discoveries themselves. Those 490 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: discoveries stay with them forever, and so in our exhibitions, 491 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: one of the things that we want to always try 492 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: to do is create ways for people to discover for 493 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: themselves and make connections about ideas that feel relevant to them. 494 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: UM to have their say and sometimes to leave their 495 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: say behind so that other people can learn from the 496 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: people who came before them. And so that was a 497 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,959 Speaker 1: big part of what we added to this exhibition. We 498 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: loved the content um that we saw when we went 499 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: to visit in New York, but we were concerned that 500 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: it was a lot of kind of talking in one direction. Right, 501 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: So we've got wonderful panels and labels and all, and 502 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: they're just talking at you. But you need a moment 503 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: to think about, to digest, to respond to all of 504 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: this content and make connections for yourself. So, for example, 505 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: in one section where we're thinking about the ways and 506 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: talking about displaying the ways that UM Jim Crow functioned, 507 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: and one of the things that Jim Crow did was 508 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: to constantly assert that African Americans are not capable of 509 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: self governance, let alone governance of anyone else. We have 510 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: this mirror and this interactive experience where we invite people 511 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: to look at themselves and to answer the question what 512 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: does a good leader look like? What does it mean 513 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: to be a good leader? To you? While you gaze 514 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: into your own eyes, and hopefully UH think about consciously 515 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: or subconsciously what you're seeing in yourself, because that's our 516 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: way forward, right. It's not going to be some psionic 517 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: character who comes to save us. All we are the 518 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: ones um and so UM. We also think about how 519 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: people visit in cultural institutions as families, UM, as school groups, UM. 520 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: And so with those kinds of things in mind, how 521 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: do you broach a topic of this sort with a 522 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: very young person? Um, I'm a mother, I have my 523 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: younger My younger child is eight and this is important content, 524 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: but it's heavy. How can somebody like me have a 525 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: conversation starter something to begin a conversation that's going to 526 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: be age appropriate with a kiddo the age of my son. 527 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: So when you think about that us UM Colored Troops 528 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: regimental flag. One of the things that we have as 529 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: a little small table where you can draw your own 530 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: flag and represent the colors, the ideas, the symbols that 531 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: mean family to you, or that that you you think 532 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,959 Speaker 1: represent yourself, and have a conversation about that. What does 533 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: it mean to carry a banner? What does it mean 534 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: to stand for something? We have an interactive exercise where 535 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: you can pack a bag because some people pack their 536 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: bags right, Millions of people pack their bags instead. I've 537 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: had enough of this, Jim Crow south, Um, We'll try 538 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: it up north, or some of us like to say 539 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: up south, um, or I'll go off to Europe or 540 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. What why didn't everybody make 541 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: that choice? What were you leaving behind? What would you 542 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: take with you? What would you do once you got 543 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: to where you're going? And so kids love to play 544 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: with that and think about what they would pack, um, 545 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: what they would have to leave behind, um, what it 546 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: would mean to them to leave behind, for example, land 547 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: where all of your ancestors are buried and where they 548 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: labored without compensation for generations. So that's a tough conversation, 549 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: but that little kernel of just that interactivity and thinking 550 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: about like what would what would I take and what 551 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: would I keep, that's a great way in so we 552 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: try to do as many of those as we can 553 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: fit in. I love that idea because as difficult as 554 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: it is to broach subjects that are often very dark 555 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: and unpleasant with kids, like I like to think of 556 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 1: how that becomes a layered and nuanced lesson when they're 557 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: a little bit older and they are taking in more 558 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: of the details that are a little bit harder to 559 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: share with the younger kid. They will remember doing that 560 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 1: activity and thinking about what that meant to leave something behind. 561 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: So it kind of it's exactly what you're talking about earlier, 562 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: where self discovery will imprint something a lot more poignantly 563 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: than just being talked to you. They will remember doing 564 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 1: that when they later learn another part of the lesson, 565 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: And so I love it. Um, May I say something 566 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: else about that? Yes, the one other thing I wanted 567 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: to say because it's so important to me, And I'm 568 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: glad you phrased your point the way that you did 569 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: when you said, you know, when you're looking at something 570 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: dark and difficult, called there are yet these ways to 571 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: unpack it. I wanna, um just point out that one 572 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 1: of the reasons that we wanted to bring this exipot 573 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: at least, I wanted to bring this exhibition out on 574 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:17,479 Speaker 1: that that part of things is because we center Jim 575 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: Crow when we're talking about Jim Crow, but this exhibition 576 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: is Black citizenship in the age of Jim Crow, and 577 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: that's an important distinction. The black citizenship part of that 578 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,479 Speaker 1: conversation is really what's centered in this discussion. So while 579 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: Jim Crow was set up in opposition to that, the 580 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: center of this exhibition is about African American agency and 581 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: hope and inspiration and creativity, and that in and of 582 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: itself is a flip in terms of the way that 583 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: we talk about things and think about things. Uh. It 584 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: enables us to look at people's productivity and genius and 585 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: courage not only in reaction to their dehumanization, but just 586 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: as an affirmation of their humanity. It's a really different thing, 587 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: and it's an important thing. I would concur that exhibit. 588 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: Like I said, it covers a lot of very dark history, 589 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: but it ultimately, and part of it is because of 590 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: the way you've pasted out and the end is all art. 591 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: It still feels very celebratory of the persistence of the 592 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: black community through incredibly difficult times, which to me, it's 593 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: like that's the perfect send off, right. You see all 594 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 1: of these beautiful things that have bloomed out of this 595 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: difficult period and a lot of really unfair treatment. Um so, 596 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: and I love art, so I was a little bit 597 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: drooling over some of those paintings. This brings me to 598 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: my next question, which is a difficult to part. What 599 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: is your favorite piece in this exhibit? And then and 600 00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: it may or may not be the same thing, what 601 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: do you think is the most important piece in the exhibit? 602 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: I know these are unkind and cruel questions to ask. 603 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: They are I love everything UM, So in terms of 604 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: my favorite piece, I'm going to cheat a little bit 605 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 1: and say my favorite thing. My favorite area of the 606 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: exhibition is the art section. It was first of all 607 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: a thrill to me, as an historian and a curator 608 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 1: of history UM to get to do an art except 609 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: a little mini art exhibition in here UM. I don't 610 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: often get the chance to do that, And I think 611 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: that it was so important to include because it leaves 612 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: us in a place one where we can think about 613 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 1: resistance and UM creativity in new and different ways than 614 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 1: we often do. So thinking about what the folks who 615 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: are represented in that section produced UM and looking at 616 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: it and marveling with it and being sparked by it 617 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: UM is important. First of all, all of those works 618 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: in the art section are works that were produced by 619 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: people who participated in Atlanta Universities UM Annual Jury Show, 620 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 1: which is the largest exposition of African American art UM 621 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: and in fact, at the time the largest exposition of 622 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: African descended people's art anywhere in the world ever, and 623 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: that persisted for um a little over thirty years, from 624 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: ninety two to UM the early nineteen seventies. What that 625 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: means necessarily is the artists who were producing those works 626 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: at that time, they were all retrospective to some extent 627 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 1: in terms of the period of time that we're thinking about. 628 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: So we're moving out of that era but reflecting on 629 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: it and using that to make a statement today. So 630 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: it's a wonderful send off, as you were saying, right, 631 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 1: because we can do the same thing whatever our genre, 632 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: whatever our medium. UM. So that's one thing. The other 633 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: thing is that it's beautiful to me in large part 634 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,240 Speaker 1: because it represents where hope we're going as cultural institutions, 635 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,879 Speaker 1: which is that rather than being competitive, we are in 636 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: this work together trying to create more full narratives. So 637 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,399 Speaker 1: the Georgia Museum of Art, the High Museum of Art, 638 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,279 Speaker 1: Clark Atlanta University Museum, they all were wonderful collaborators and 639 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: partners and making those those art pieces available. So it's 640 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: a kind of unique and singular opportunity to get to 641 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:42,720 Speaker 1: see what people UM who have participated in that competition. UM, 642 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 1: like I said, produced UM in their reflections on African 643 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: American experience in painting and sculpture as well, UMS devastatingly beautiful. 644 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: So so that's a wonderful kind of aspect of that. 645 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: And I think that the other thing about the artwork 646 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,439 Speaker 1: that is so meaningful to me is sometimes we don't 647 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: have the words right, like sometimes you just something is 648 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: evoked and you you get the feeling, you understand it. 649 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: There's a universality of human experience and what it pulls 650 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: out of you. And you don't have to know this 651 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: particular story. You don't have to have learned this particular 652 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: history for it to hit you and something to resonate 653 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: and something to connect and to understand how you are 654 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: connected by people to people who are, you know, decades removed, 655 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: who are in terms of identity, very different than yourself. 656 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 1: So that's my favorite section of the exhibition, if you'll 657 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: let me get away with that. And in terms of 658 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: I think, what was your other question most important? What 659 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: do you think it is the most important piece? Usually 660 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: I refuse to answer this exhibitions, but I'm going to 661 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: name some thing this I'm gonna I'm gonna go for it. 662 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go for it, and I'm going to say 663 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: that to me. The two most important pieces in the 664 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: exhibition are the portrait of dread Scott that opens the exhibition, 665 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: because ensuing for his freedom, dread Scott is often portrayed 666 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: as old people will say the slave dread Scott sued 667 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: for his freedom when his master took him to a 668 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:36,839 Speaker 1: free state. And ultimately, of course dread Scott lost that 669 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 1: suit and and was in factory enslaved. But what you 670 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 1: get in the opening of this exhibition with this portrait 671 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: of the man dread Scott, is that you get that 672 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: this human being who was enslaved, dread Scott, this man 673 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: sued for an opportunity to be a full American. And 674 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: that's where we start this conversation. And it's before the 675 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,959 Speaker 1: Civil War, obviously, it's before the time period of most consideration, 676 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: which is, you know, between kind of eighteen sixty five 677 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: and um, the end of World War One. As most 678 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: of the exhibition, it's well before that. He was saying 679 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: not just I don't want to be enslaved, he was saying, 680 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: I am a full human being. I should be a 681 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: full citizen. I'm an American person, and so that's a 682 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: wonderful place to begin. And then I think, you know, 683 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: I would go back to the United States Colored Troops 684 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,919 Speaker 1: regimental flag as the other that I would call out, 685 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: and I would say that I think that that is 686 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,879 Speaker 1: so important because I meet students all the time who 687 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: are blown away by the fact that African Americans we're 688 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: fighting in all kinds of ways for their own freedom, 689 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: and in part killer were were dawning a national uniform 690 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: and fighting for this country and for their own freedom 691 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: even before they were universally emancipated. I will tell you 692 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: just a quick, kind of little story. One of the 693 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: earliest museum consultancies I had in my career was to 694 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: work with Frank Smith at the African American Civil War 695 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 1: Memorial and Freedom Foundation. I was introduced to the idea 696 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: of how important the United States Colored Troops were. The 697 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: project of the memorial to African Americans who fought in 698 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: the Civil War was to identify and name each of 699 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: them and provide a place where African Americans could go 700 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: and find the names of their ancestors who labored for 701 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 1: their own freedom and understand them as fully human beings 702 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: and not some caricature of some enslaved person. When I 703 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 1: first went to do that work, I didn't think it 704 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,839 Speaker 1: had anything to do with me personally. Two interred sixty 705 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: five thousand people are a lot of people. But in 706 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,919 Speaker 1: the grand scheme of things, right, like, you know, we're 707 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,759 Speaker 1: a nation of millions and millions and millions of people. Um. 708 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,359 Speaker 1: And I happened to mention to my father that I 709 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: was doing this work, and he said, you know, my grandfather, 710 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 1: who was born in eighteen eighty, said that he had 711 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: an uncle who fought with the United States Colored Troops 712 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: and his name was Immanuel. And I knew where my 713 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: people had been enslaved, and so I looked on the 714 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: roster just to see if his name was there, and 715 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting to find it, and I did. Um. 716 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:48,560 Speaker 1: So this was a man who was enslaved who self emancipated, 717 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: right what we like to characterize is running away. He 718 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:58,320 Speaker 1: emancipated himself, and he immediately went to war um with 719 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 1: without thought for his well, I'm sure he did have 720 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: thought for his life, but he he thought it more 721 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 1: important to fight for the liberation of others, and he did, 722 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: and he survived the war. UM And subsequent to finding 723 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 1: his name on that memorial, I was driven to go 724 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,800 Speaker 1: back to that place where I knew those ancestors were from, 725 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: and I found the little church, and I found the 726 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: brick with his initials on it. And that's a connection 727 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: that African Americans don't often have. You're so unfortunately separated 728 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: from our past. And I was able to then take 729 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: that gift and take my son's to that place and 730 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,479 Speaker 1: to put their fingers on the name of that man. 731 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,480 Speaker 1: I think every African American person listening to this will 732 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: understand the significance and the poigns of that. It's a 733 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: very different thing for us because we have been so 734 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 1: separated from our past in that way, and it's an 735 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: incredibly humanizing thing for us. Oh, it's a beautiful story. Um. 736 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: This is, as we said, you know, in some ways 737 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 1: a hard exhibit to walk through, but it also has 738 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: this celebration element to it. And I know it's only 739 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: been open for a couple of weeks, but I'm curious 740 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: what reactions have been from the people that have come 741 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 1: to the Atlanta History Center to visit. We are excited 742 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,919 Speaker 1: that there have been really positive reactions to this exhibition, UM, 743 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: and we know that from some of the comments that 744 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 1: people are leaving behind, but we also know it because 745 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,400 Speaker 1: we've been kind of lurking and watching people in the 746 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,759 Speaker 1: exhibition and watching them linger and watching them part of 747 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: part of it has actually been really beautiful because there 748 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: have been so many families that came. UM we pushed 749 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 1: hard to be open in time for the King Holiday, 750 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,799 Speaker 1: which is one of our largest UM events of the year, 751 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 1: and literally thousands of people came to visit the exhibition. 752 00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 1: We think something like close to four thousand people came. 753 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,839 Speaker 1: I was a free day to the community, a community day, 754 00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 1: and it was wonderful to see multiple generations of people 755 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 1: engaging in that exhibition together. It's also really nice to see, 756 00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,240 Speaker 1: particularly with the museum theater piece, to see people engaging 757 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 1: with each other, like people who who came who didn't 758 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: know one another. UM. So with the museum theater piece, 759 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 1: one of the things that Tunis Campbell's character does is 760 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:22,600 Speaker 1: he shares his backstory and then he asks before telling 761 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: you it's a little bit of a spoiler, but before 762 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,719 Speaker 1: telling you what happened to him, he says, what would 763 00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,520 Speaker 1: you do? They're telling me that I can leave and 764 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: they won't come after me, or I can stay and fight, 765 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: but they're coming after me. And I know what it 766 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: looks like when they come after you, and and and 767 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,840 Speaker 1: suddenly people who are in that space, young and old, 768 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,720 Speaker 1: black and white, and wherever you might be from, whatever 769 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 1: your background might be, you have to really kind of 770 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 1: sit for a minute and think about the implications of 771 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: all of this. And it's very interesting to watch people 772 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:04,600 Speaker 1: dialogue with one another about this quandary. So people have 773 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: been really positive about it. We also did something brand 774 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: new for our institution, and we hosted a community dinner 775 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,799 Speaker 1: and we had a relatively small group of people in 776 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,239 Speaker 1: and they went and visited the exhibition, and then they 777 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:27,640 Speaker 1: had a conversation with one another about not only what 778 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: they thought of the exhibition, but about the ways that 779 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:35,920 Speaker 1: it mattered to them personally. So I think like, for example, 780 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,319 Speaker 1: one of the first questions that people were asked as 781 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:45,120 Speaker 1: they were engaging in conversation was, UM, what's your first 782 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:50,560 Speaker 1: memory of understanding that race matters? That will open some 783 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:57,120 Speaker 1: doors conversationally. We try really hard to create a space 784 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:04,279 Speaker 1: where people can thoughtfully engage with sometimes difficult content in 785 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:10,239 Speaker 1: a way that does not cast dispersions. UM does not 786 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,760 Speaker 1: shut people down, but hopefully opens people up to really 787 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,359 Speaker 1: exploring their own experience and being able to hear the 788 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,319 Speaker 1: experience of other people. And now, uh, what is your 789 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 1: personal wish? Because you were so hands on with this exhibit, 790 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,839 Speaker 1: I mean in some ways it's your baby, right right? Um, 791 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: what is your hope that people walk away with when 792 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 1: they leave that last room? From an historical perspective, I 793 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,920 Speaker 1: hope if they understand that the narrative that they've been 794 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:45,319 Speaker 1: taught might be inaccurate and that they have UM, we 795 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 1: all have, every single one of us. I have PhD 796 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,239 Speaker 1: in this subject. I learned so much from the original exhibition. 797 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 1: We all have a lot to learn about. UM, the 798 00:49:55,160 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 1: ways that people human beings have. Oh, I is fought 799 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 1: for freedom and equity. So that's one thing. From an 800 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,879 Speaker 1: historical perspective and from a forward thinking perspective, as they 801 00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,040 Speaker 1: walk out of that last room, I hope that people 802 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:16,640 Speaker 1: will understand there are a million in one ways that 803 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,360 Speaker 1: I can make a difference, That I can raise my 804 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,520 Speaker 1: voice on my own behalf and on behalf of others, 805 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,640 Speaker 1: and it's well worth doing. My last question is silly? 806 00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:30,560 Speaker 1: Are you ready? Can we talk about how handsome John 807 00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:36,160 Speaker 1: Warren Davis was. I turned my corner and saw that portrait, 808 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:42,200 Speaker 1: and I was like, Holy Moses, gorgeous. I have a 809 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,720 Speaker 1: lot of history crushes. I do too. I think that's natural. 810 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:51,919 Speaker 1: He's so handsome, so many and you know, like I'm 811 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:58,279 Speaker 1: just a sucker for a brilliant mind. So all of 812 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,399 Speaker 1: these incredible quotes, and like they said, what in what year? 813 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:09,800 Speaker 1: Um not to mention a creative artist? You know, forget it. Listen, 814 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:16,279 Speaker 1: I'm married one two, we're speaking the same light age. Yeah, 815 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,480 Speaker 1: I wow, handsome, Like I had not seen that portrait 816 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,480 Speaker 1: of him before, and I just wanted being kind of 817 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,200 Speaker 1: blown away. I was like, and I didn't know as 818 00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,640 Speaker 1: much about him as I would like. Um. I then 819 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,000 Speaker 1: went home and was googling. It's like, oh, one of 820 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:29,919 Speaker 1: the first ad the Lacey Beach afters Oh my god, 821 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: and then a gorgeous But to me, those are also 822 00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,319 Speaker 1: the fun things that are takeaways from exhibits like this. 823 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,120 Speaker 1: For your like, there's a person I really didn't know 824 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:40,600 Speaker 1: enough about it. Now I want to learn everything about 825 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,680 Speaker 1: him because I think they're fascinating. Um. And so thank 826 00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,280 Speaker 1: you for bringing that to me and to the Atlantic 827 00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:50,200 Speaker 1: community and anyone who visits. Um, I think the importance 828 00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:54,279 Speaker 1: of exhibits like this cannot be understated or overstated. Yeah, 829 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,480 Speaker 1: it's incredibly important and beautiful, and I appreciate all of 830 00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:59,960 Speaker 1: the effort because I know none of that just magically 831 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,439 Speaker 1: drops into place. It's a lot of work. So thank 832 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,239 Speaker 1: you so much, and thank you for spending so much 833 00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,200 Speaker 1: time with me today. Absolutely, thank you for having me, um, 834 00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,239 Speaker 1: and thank you for your interests in the exhibition, not 835 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,200 Speaker 1: only for me, but on behalf of the whole team, 836 00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:15,799 Speaker 1: because you know, these things will happen with just one person. Oh, 837 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,120 Speaker 1: it's a huge group effort, uh, And it turned out 838 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:23,000 Speaker 1: so beautifully, So again, thank you. Thanks. I am so 839 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,879 Speaker 1: so thankful to Kalinda for spending so much time with me. 840 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:27,600 Speaker 1: And I also want to make sure I give a 841 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,040 Speaker 1: special thanks to Howard Pausner, who is the manager of 842 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,200 Speaker 1: media relations to the Atlanta History Center. He arranged this 843 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,160 Speaker 1: interview and he spent an entire afternoon with me at 844 00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,480 Speaker 1: the History Center just walking around and talking while I 845 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,160 Speaker 1: saw the exhibit, which was an absolute joy. If you're 846 00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,600 Speaker 1: in the Atlanta area or planning a visit sometime soon, 847 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,080 Speaker 1: Black Citizenship in the Age of Jim Crow is something 848 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,400 Speaker 1: you don't want to miss, especially with all of the 849 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,360 Speaker 1: amazing additions to it that doctor Lee talked about. It 850 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:56,440 Speaker 1: is running until June, and for more information about that 851 00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,600 Speaker 1: exhibit and all of the other really impressive programming at 852 00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,600 Speaker 1: the atlant A History Center, you can visit Atlanta History 853 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:07,239 Speaker 1: Center dot com. Since that interview UM was a little 854 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,160 Speaker 1: longer than some of our episodes, I'm keeping listener mail 855 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:14,319 Speaker 1: very very short and it's funny. UM. This is from 856 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:18,040 Speaker 1: our listener Melissa, who sent us a hilarious postcard of 857 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:22,879 Speaker 1: Bigfoot carrying spam. Uh. It's from the Spam Museum, and 858 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,319 Speaker 1: she writes, Holly and Tracy, you've kept me company on 859 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,920 Speaker 1: a Midwest road trip, so I wanted to send you 860 00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,040 Speaker 1: a postcard to say thank you. Uh, Melissa, thank you 861 00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:36,160 Speaker 1: so much. I love this so desperately. It's the famous 862 00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:41,480 Speaker 1: photograph of Bigfoot that people hold up as the film evidence, 863 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,680 Speaker 1: and he's got spam in his hand. It makes me happy. 864 00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,759 Speaker 1: I hope he had a sumptuous and delicious meal. Its 865 00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,359 Speaker 1: uh fried spam sandwiches. Big big hit at my house 866 00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,640 Speaker 1: as a kid. If you would like to write to us, 867 00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,480 Speaker 1: you could do so at History Podcast at iHeart radio 868 00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,640 Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find us on social media 869 00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,440 Speaker 1: as missed in His Street, and if you would like 870 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,440 Speaker 1: to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that on 871 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,280 Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, or wherever 872 00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:13,520 Speaker 1: it is you like to listen. Stuff you Missed in 873 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,000 Speaker 1: History Class is a production of I heart Radios How 874 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,160 Speaker 1: Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit 875 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,080 Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 876 00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:23,360 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.