WEBVTT - Harvard Fights Back & Lawsuits Over Tariffs 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:13.320 A broad legal challenge to President Trump's Liberation Day tariffs 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:18.240 comes from five small businesses, an online fishing gear company, 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.280 a New York wine importer, a toy kitmaker, a plumbing 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:26.920 manufacturer in Utah, and a women cycling apparel brand in Vermont. 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.320 The suit argues that the tariffs will harm the businesses 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:35.960 by increasing costs, reducing demand, and disrupting supply chains, potentially 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.800 leading to bankruptcy. My guest is Iliah Suhman, a law 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:44.040 professor at George Mason University who's co counsel in the case. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:49.479 Tell us about the International Economic Emergency Powers Act that 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:53.520 President Trump invoked in imposing these tariffs. 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:57.640 It's an act and action in nineteen seventy seven intended 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:02.360 to enable the President to use various types of economic 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:07.720 sanctions in the event of some kind of emergency or crisis. 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:11.000 In particular, the Act says it can only be used 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.759 when the President declares a national emergency, and even then, 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:19.400 the emergency has to be with respect to an extraordinary 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.760 and unusual threat to US economy, security, and the white 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:27.520 disseminating from abroad. So it's intended to be used in 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.560 response to some sort of crisis that suddenly arises. And 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.600 I would note the Act nowhere mentions tariffs as one 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.400 of the powers that the President is able to exercise 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:38.840 under it. 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.520 So in your lawsuit, you say this court should declare 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:47.360 the president's unprecedented power grab illegal. Explain the reasons why. 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.440 We have a whole bunch of reasons. Why start off 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:53.640 from the fact that this statute doesn't even mention tariffs, 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:57.600 and therefore we argue it doesn't authorize the use of tariffs. 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.400 It may authorize the use of other kinds of economic 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.920 sanctions in some situations, but not terriff. But let's assume 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.640 for a second it does authrize prap. Still, those tariffs 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.519 can only be used in the event of a national emergency. 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:14.880 An emergency is a sudden, unexpected crisis, like, for example, 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:19.519 the COVID pandemic that was an emergency. However, bilateral trade 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.840 deficits for various countries they're not a crisis. They're not 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:26.639 an unexpected problem given that they have existed for many decades, 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:29.360 and they're not even really a problem at all, because 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.880 having a bilateral deficit with a particular a country is 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:35.680 no more a crisis or a problem than me having 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.959 a trade deficit with my local supermarket. I buy from 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.880 them all the time, but sadly they virtually never buy 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.120 any of my books. I wish they would buy more 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.080 of them, but it's not a crisis or a problem. 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:50.320 And similarly, if, for instance, Canada or Mexico or some 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.040 other country, we buy more from them than vice versa, 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:56.600 that's not any kind of economic crisis or problem. Anyway, 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:00.840 then it's certainly not an emergency. But let's assume courts 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.680 say we're going to defert in the president's declaring an emergency. 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:08.000 Still there has to be an extraordinary and unusual threat. 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:12.240 It's very obvious that there's nothing extraordinary and unusual about 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.800 bilateral trade deficits of various countries. We've had them for 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:19.440 many decades. They're an inevitable aspect of international commerce to 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.040 some degree, and they're not a thread at all, much 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:26.359 less being an extraordinary or unusual threat. Then the Supreme 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.560 Court has said in several important decisions over the last 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:33.720 few years that when the executive says it has the 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:38.720 power to decide a major economic for a social or 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:43.000 political question, that they have to show the Congress clearly 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.000 delegated that power to them. It's not enough to have 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:50.120 an ambiguous statute here. It's very obvious that this is 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.440 a major question. Indeed, it's the biggest major question I've 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.200 ever seen in all my years of studying this doctrine, 0:03:56.400 --> 0:04:00.000 because we're talking about the biggest tax increase on Americans 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.280 decades and the biggest trade war since the Great Depression. 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.240 If that is not a major question, I honestly do 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.600 not know what is. And it's also obvious that at 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.360 the very least it's not at all clear the Congress 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:16.360 is delegated under the statute the sweeping power to impose tariffs. 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:18.000 Finally, if you. 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:22.200 Do interpret the statute as delegating the power to impose 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.800 tariffs in this situation, which would essentially mean the president 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:29.440 could impose any tariff at any rate on any country 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.159 that he wants, for any reason, at any time, that 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:38.159 would bylight constitutional rules against excessive delegation of legislative power 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.280 to the executive. Those rules are not completely clear, and 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.000 the Supreme Court's president. But if you believe there are 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.560 any limits on congress visibility to delegate power to the 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.040 executive at all, then you've got to say those limits 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.559 are breached here, where again you see virtually total user 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.760 pations of the power over tariffs. So if we were 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:59.520 to lose on these other previous points that I made, 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.160 then the court, I think, would have to rule that 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:05.520 this is unconstitutional unless they want to say there are 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:10.200 no limits whatsoever to Congress's power to delegate its authority 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:13.440 to the executive Because if they can just say, as 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:17.080 the administration claims, they have said that the president could 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.599 just enact any tariffs he wants at any time, for 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.200 any reason, in any magnitude, then you might as well 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.640 just say that, you know, Congress could similarly completely delegate 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.719 them the power to impose income taxes or virtually any 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:30.320 other powers. 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:36.000 Does it fit in anywhere that Trump's methodology in calculating 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.920 these tariffs seems odd. 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:44.000 Yeah, the methodology is completely ridiculous. And this further underscores 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.839 the fact that there is no emergency and no extraordinary 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.479 and unusual threats, because what these tariffs are doing is 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:55.000 totally unrelated, even in many cases, to whether there really 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.400 is a deficit or not, or any kind of reciprocity. 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.520 Even countries would wish we have a trade surplus still 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.720 are included within these very high tariffs, and even countries 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.440 like Switzerland and Israel, which imposed no tariffs whatsoever on 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.600 US goods, they are still hit with high tariffs under 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:16.120 Trump's formula thirty one percent in the case of Switzerland 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:18.400 seventeen percent when it comes to Israel. 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:26.480 Congress doesn't seem inclined to stop Trump and the tariffs. 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:29.800 There is a bypartisan movement in Congress to try to 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:32.720 do that. I fear those that even if that effort 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.600 were to result in the passage of a law, Trump 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:37.719 would be to it. And at this point I do 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.680 not believe there are veto proof majorities to override that. 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.880 So a lot of times with these lawsuits over Trump's 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:51.840 executive actions, some of which courts have found unconstitutional or 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.919 illegal for whatever reason, the courts can't act fast enough 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:59.520 to stop the harm from occurring. So a lot of 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.400 harm as are ready occurred according to the plaintiffs in 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.280 your case, How fast do you think you can get 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.039 a court to rule on this? 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.800 So I think the court has considerable discretion over that. 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:15.800 But we will be speaking a preliminary injunction and a 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:19.120 temporary training order, which if we get it with blocks 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.480 the tariffs from being implemented while the case is litigated 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:27.840 to a final decision, and similar CROs techemporary's training orders 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:30.840 and preliminary injunctions have been granted in a number of 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.800 other cases challenging Trump's action. The birth rights citizenship cases 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:36.760 are a pretty clearly notable example. 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:39.120 So do you think you can meet the high standard 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.920 for getting a tro or preliminary injunction. 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:44.720 We believe we can. Obviously, it'll be up to the 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:45.480 court to this side. 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:50.200 There have been a few other lawsuits over Trump's tariffs, 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:54.320 one over the Canada tariffs and one over the first 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.440 China tariffs. Is your lawsuit broader than any of those 0:07:58.520 --> 0:07:59.120 other suits? 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.960 Yeah, this lawsuit is much broader in that, as you mentioned, 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:06.240 one of those lawsuits, brought by members the Black Seat 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:10.520 Nation Indian tribes, is specifically focused on Canada traffs, which 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.640 affect members of that Native American nation. The other one 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:17.320 is focused on the tariffs imposed on China in a 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:23.440 separate emergency decoration justified by the supposed FNS no imports 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.160 from China. Ours, on the other hand, targets the so 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:30.800 called Liberation Day tariffs, which imposed trade restrictions on almost 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.559 every nation in the world, and therefore the target we're 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.960 shooting at is much larger and also much more damaging 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.480 to the US economy and a bigger abuse of power. So 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.800 I believe that those other two watsuits also have merit, 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.120 because it's still the case that those other two watsuits 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:50.600 are aimed the tariffs under AEPA, the same laws, which 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.480 doesn't authorize those tariffs either. And I believe that those 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:59.280 other emergency decorations are also focused and also are about 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.600 things which are not an extraordinary and unusual threads. But 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.839 in our case, the government's position is even more ridiculous 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.160 than it is in those other two cases. And also 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.880 our case deals with a bigger issue because the magnitude 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.720 of these tariffs and a number of countries affected is 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:15.439 much larger. 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.599 And can you tell us a little about the plaintiffs. 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.360 The small businesses that are plaintiffs in. 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:25.000 This case, The plaintiffs' trill small to medium sized businesses 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.040 that import from a wide range of countries. They range 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:32.800 in different industries from wineries to cycling, apparel and items 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.960 for children, And what they have in common is that 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:40.319 they import from countries that are tariffs severely under the 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:44.880 President's policy, and their businesses will be severely damaged unless 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.880 the tariffs are withed. And obviously their customers also suffer 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.520 from having higher prices. And if these businesses go under, 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.160 which could happen as a results of tariffs, obviously the 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.840 products that they sell will no longer be available in 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.480 the same way to the customers. So these five businesses, 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.760 whose situation is described in more detail at the Liberty 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.280 Justice Central website where we posted this information, they're a 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:12.320 microcosm of the broader, enormous damage that these tariffs will 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:14.360 due to our economy and less we are. 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:16.400 Able to stop them and tell us about some of 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:21.840 the practical implications of allowing the president to impose these tariffs. 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.240 So, I think, in addition to the purely legal issues, 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.880 it is just extremely dangerous to allow one man to 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.079 have essentially total control of tariffs and be able to 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:34.360 rip up at a US trade agreement at each time 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.200 he wants and destroy the world in US economy at 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:40.440 each time he wants. That makes this virtually impossible to 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.560 have meaningful trade agreements between the US and other countries, 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.199 because the President to just violate them at any time 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.480 as he's now dealing with the USMPA agreements that he 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:54.440 himself negotiated with Canada and Mexico. And also it destroys 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:59.480 the certainty and predictability the businesses, investors and consumers needs. 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.520 Why to invest in a factory or sign a contract 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:04.960 to the liver goods if you know that, you know 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.840 the arrangement can be destroyed at any time by you know, 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:09.920 the President waking up on the wrong side of his 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:14.520 bed and imposing massive tariffs that you make your arrangement unworkable. 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:16.719 And you know that is the kind of thing that 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:20.000 businesses in all kinds of industries have been telling us, 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.880 and economists across the political spectrum. 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.240 Also agreed, why did you decide to take part in 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:27.720 this particular litigation? 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.760 So I'm a law professor. I teach constitutional laws, and 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.880 in particular I've had an interest in issues related to 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:39.800 non delegation and major questions. So what I saw in February, 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:44.280 these initial attempts to use AIPA the same statute against 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:48.320 Canada and Mexico and China, I wrote a piece online 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.000 explaining some of the kinds of arguments that I just 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:54.079 outlined to you lawyers at the Liberty Justice Center of 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.520 Public Interest law firms bomb I Piece. They contacted me 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.440 and they said the arrengement potentially bringing along on this basis, 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.600 and when the Liberation Day tariffs happened, we saw that, 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.960 you know, now is the time to do this, and 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.480 they invited me to work with them on the case, 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:10.720 which Chili was more than happy to do. 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:12.960 Well, thanks so much for joining us today to talk 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.320 about it. That's law. Professor Ilia Sohman of George Mason 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.000 University and the State of California filed a suit today 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:23.600 over the tariffs, with arguments echoing those in the suit 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:27.000 by the small businesses. I'm June grossoh and you're listening 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:33.200 to Bloomberg. The nation's oldest and wealthiest university is digging 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.280 in for a fight with the Trump administration as it 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:41.280 attempts to reshape American higher education. This week, Harvard became 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:46.120 the first university to openly defy the Trump administration as 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:50.559 it demands sweeping changes to comply with Trump's political agenda. 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:54.559 In response, the federal government says it's freezing more than 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.680 two point two billion dollars in grants and sixty million 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:03.160 dollars in contract to Harvard. The hold on funding marks 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.720 the seventh time the Trump administration has taken such a 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:11.280 step at one of the nation's most elite colleges. Harvard's 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:15.439 professors already sued the administration on Friday over its demands, 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.080 and joining me is one of those professors, Ryan Enos, 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.240 a professor of government at Harvard. Ryan, can you tell 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.719 us about the latest demands that Trump administration made for 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:27.480 changes at Harvard? 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.800 Yeah, so, you know, these were demands that the federal 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.280 government and the actually, I shouldn't even say the federal government. 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:39.720 These are demands that the Trump administration and his loyalists 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:45.239 in there have a direct role in the political ideology 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:49.760 of faculty and students. And that is something that should 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:55.000 really shock people because, you know, it's reminiscent of the 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.160 type of demands that would come out of for example, 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.440 MAOIs China, where they were a check on loyalty to 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:05.559 the regime among their intellectuals. And not only that, also 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:09.640 reminiscent of Maoice China. What it asked for was that 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.400 there essentially be a system of reporting where people could 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.960 report whether or not, you know, Harvard was staying loyal 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.720 to these demands made by the Trump administration and if 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:24.400 their reporting was unsatisfied, that there'd be consequences for that. 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:28.080 So in many ways, those were the most shocking parts 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:29.720 of those demands from the administration. 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:35.120 And this has all been couched in the accusations of 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:40.280 Harvard mishandling anti semitism on the campus. The orders went 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:41.440 far beyond that. 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.720 They did go far beyond it, and I think that 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:48.400 that is an important question for the following reason. What 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:52.920 it does is that reveals that what the Trump administration 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:59.240 was doing was not actually anything that actually addressed any 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:04.440 posed concerns with anti semitism, but was rather a pretext 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.880 for taking away power from universities. And that is what 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:13.360 authoritarians have done all across the world. Is when they 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:17.440 want to attack civil society and take power away from it, 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:23.080 what they do is they attack universities first under some 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:24.920 kind of pretext. And I can talk about lots of 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:30.680 examples of that. So Vladimir Putin attacked universities in Russia, 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:37.560 Erduban attacked universities in Turkey, Victor Orbon attacked universities in Hungary, 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.640 Hugo Chavez attacked them in Venezuela. And when we look 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.280 at these examples in every case, they have some kind 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.160 of a pretext, you know. Edrigan said it was because 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.480 of support for terrorism among professors, which maybe shows down 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:52.160 familiar to you when you hear some of the rhetoric 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.040 coming out of the Trump administration. And this was simply 0:15:55.080 --> 0:16:00.880 because professors have signed petitions condemning the Turkish government's war 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.280 on kurts and then he eventually spread that to a 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.920 purging of all the universities. So that should sound familiar 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.440 to you where the Trump administration is the saying things 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.680 like support for terrorists on these campuses that is anti 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.680 Semitic or something like that, and then we are going 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.080 to come in and take control over who can be 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:24.880 the faculty at a university in Hungary, Orabon's complained about 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.800 foreign influence on the universities where he said there was 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.640 dangerous foreign influence, and then he used that as a 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.920 reason for the government to seize control of the universities 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.480 and eventually fire faculty and remake the faculty in those 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.880 universities as well. So there's always the pretext for these 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.800 kinds of things. And many of us have been saying 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.760 for quite some time that that was just a pretext 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.920 that the Trump administration did not actually care about any 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.280 kind of policy, and it most certainly does not care 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:59.600 about anti Semitism, and that should be plainly obvious to everybody, 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:03.720 because of course the Trump administration seems to coddle and 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.399 sometimes even platform anti Semites, and so if you know, 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.359 obviously it doesn't care about those things, and that of 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:14.120 course was played out, was shown to be true when 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.480 they set these list of demands. It had nothing to 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.240 do with anti Semitism. It was rather just excuses to 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:22.720 bring universities under his power. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:27.560 So you have billions of dollars in federal funds and 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.760 hanging in the balance. How do you weigh that against 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.159 what you're trying to protect as an institution. 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:37.600 Well, look, I think it's important to emphasize just what 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:42.040 crucial moment this is for American society, and not just 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:46.240 higher education, but American society more generally. And what I 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:48.200 mean by that is, I don't think you will find 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.880 an American anywhere that is going to say we are 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.840 willing to trade our freedom for you know, saving some 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:58.800 kind of money. You can't put a price on freedom. 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:00.640 You can't put a price on freedom speech, you can't 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:02.560 put a price on freedom of conscience. You can't put 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:04.760 a price on the freedom to think and write what 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:07.520 we want. And it should be very clear to everybody 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.840 that that is what the Trump administration is doing. You know, 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.840 they have picked up students off the streets for things 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.000 they wrote in student newspapers, and you know, there cannot 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.919 be a clearer attack on free speech. There cannot be 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.520 a clearer attack on free speech and trying to control 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:27.760 the ideology of university professors. And so ultimately, you know, 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:31.600 I would rather Harvard give away, you know, billions and 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:36.760 billions of dollars rather than bow to a regime that 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:38.960 is trying to curtail our liberties. And I think most 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.600 Americans would agree with that. But I think it's also 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:48.160 worth saying that the long term economic health of these universities, 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:50.919 of course, does mean that they stand up for the 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:55.040 rule of law now, because things like federal grants and 0:18:55.080 --> 0:19:00.479 the relationship between federal scientific funding and universities require that 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:02.879 that is set by the rule of law. That you know, 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.639 that money that is appropriated by Congress eventually gets to 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.000 those universities, not that it can be controlled on the 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:13.240 whim of a president who tries to punish his political enemies, 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:16.000 and so you know, Harvard could choose to save two 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.600 billion dollars now, but what happens the next time it 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.720 does something that upsets the Trump administration, They're just going 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.239 to try to take that money away again. So, you know, 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.800 just like with a schoolyard bully that just keeps coming 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:29.760 back for your lunch money, you know, you have to 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:31.800 put your foot down and say, you know, you're essentially 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.159 gonna have to fight me over that. And I think 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:34.879 that's what Harvard has done, and it's of course the 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:36.159 right move in the long term. 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.639 From an outside view, it seems like Trump is holding 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:43.760 all the cards. So now he's escalating the fight by 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:46.840 threatening Harvard's tax exempt status. 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.119 Right. Well, one thing to keep in mind, of course, 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:54.200 is that Trump has no legal authority to do that. Right. 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.000 You know, I'm not a lawyer, but I know some 0:19:56.119 --> 0:20:00.320 very good lawyers at Harvard Law School, and they say, 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:02.639 you know this is you know clear as day that 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.680 first of all, you know, these original claims to withhold 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:09.080 are illegal, even setting aside the First Amendment, they're illegal 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:13.879 by statutory law, and claims to take away tax exempt 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:17.720 status is against statutory law as well, because those things 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:20.920 are supposed to be decided by a review of the facts, 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.840 not by order the president of the United States. And 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.080 so the point in all this is that Harvard in 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:30.000 many ways is holding the cards because it can fight 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:34.520 these things in court and will probably win. Now, the danger, 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.520 of course, is that you know, the Trump administration can 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:39.639 just find reasons to keep coming and that's going to 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:43.600 be expensive for Harvard, there's no doubt. But Harvard also 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.120 needs to fight this thing in the court of public opinion, 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:51.119 you know, And that's one way you defeat authoritarians is 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:53.399 you prove what they're doing is very unpopular. There's a 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.680 lot of political science on this, for example, and in 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:00.520 the long run, I think that Harvard has win an 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.440 argument on this, which is that in the United States, 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.679 we don't tell universities what they can and can't do. 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:08.520 We don't tell people what they can and can't think, 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:10.120 and we don't tell them what they can and can't say. 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.240 That is not what freedom of speech is about here. 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:19.040 Do you think that when other universities capitulate and try 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.640 to meet his demands like Columbia did, do you think 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:24.280 it hurts Harvard's position? 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.520 Oh? Yeah, it definitely does. I mean but I think there, 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:30.280 of course, can be a domino effect on these things. 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:33.080 And you know, a lot of people have been arguing 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:36.600 that when universities start to fall, it makes it harder 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.240 for other ones to stand up and fight back. But 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:41.679 you know, of course, what we also see is the 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:45.600 opposite that can occur too, that when one university stands up, 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:50.240 that other universities can stand up and fight back as well. 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:52.880 And you know, one of the reasons that so many 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:55.800 people had been urging Harvard to do the right thing 0:21:56.680 --> 0:22:01.040 was because Harvard had the resources to stand up to 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.840 take these punches, if you will, for other universities that 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.840 also wanted to stand up. And you know, in many ways, 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:10.199 it's sort of fulfilling a duty that comes with it 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:13.159 being the richest and most famous university in the world, 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.000 is to fulfill his duty to society. 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:20.440 And jellibet the lawsuit by the university's professors, so you. 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:23.480 Know, the AUP, which I'm a member of, filed a 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:29.720 lawsuit against the Trump administration, saying that it had violated 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:33.480 not only the free speech of protections that all Americans enjoy, 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:39.520 but also that it had violated statutory law by not 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:44.560 going through the proper process of withholding funds through Title 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:46.560 STIX of the Civil Rights Law, which is what the 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.800 Trump administration is pointing to, because those require that if 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:53.280 there is a violation, which a Trump administration didn't show, 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:57.640 but that those be targeted to the specific units where 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:00.119 that violation had occurred, not that they're held over or 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:04.120 an institution more generally. And so the newly formed AUPA 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:07.320 chapter that was just formed last year filed suit against 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:09.040 the Trump administration based on that. 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:14.480 And AAUP standing for American Association of University Professors for 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:15.120 those not in. 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:17.600 The know, but you know, I should say that what 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:21.520 I do here from many many other professors across the 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:24.640 country is people that were waiting for Harvard to stand 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:27.160