1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 2: A broad legal challenge to President Trump's Liberation Day tariffs 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 2: comes from five small businesses, an online fishing gear company, 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 2: a New York wine importer, a toy kitmaker, a plumbing 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: manufacturer in Utah, and a women cycling apparel brand in Vermont. 6 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 2: The suit argues that the tariffs will harm the businesses 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 2: by increasing costs, reducing demand, and disrupting supply chains, potentially 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: leading to bankruptcy. My guest is Iliah Suhman, a law 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: professor at George Mason University who's co counsel in the case. 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 2: Tell us about the International Economic Emergency Powers Act that 11 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 2: President Trump invoked in imposing these tariffs. 12 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 3: It's an act and action in nineteen seventy seven intended 13 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 3: to enable the President to use various types of economic 14 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 3: sanctions in the event of some kind of emergency or crisis. 15 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 3: In particular, the Act says it can only be used 16 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 3: when the President declares a national emergency, and even then, 17 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 3: the emergency has to be with respect to an extraordinary 18 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 3: and unusual threat to US economy, security, and the white 19 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 3: disseminating from abroad. So it's intended to be used in 20 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 3: response to some sort of crisis that suddenly arises. And 21 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 3: I would note the Act nowhere mentions tariffs as one 22 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 3: of the powers that the President is able to exercise 23 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 3: under it. 24 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: So in your lawsuit, you say this court should declare 25 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: the president's unprecedented power grab illegal. Explain the reasons why. 26 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 3: We have a whole bunch of reasons. Why start off 27 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 3: from the fact that this statute doesn't even mention tariffs, 28 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 3: and therefore we argue it doesn't authorize the use of tariffs. 29 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 3: It may authorize the use of other kinds of economic 30 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 3: sanctions in some situations, but not terriff. But let's assume 31 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 3: for a second it does authrize prap. Still, those tariffs 32 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 3: can only be used in the event of a national emergency. 33 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 3: An emergency is a sudden, unexpected crisis, like, for example, 34 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 3: the COVID pandemic that was an emergency. However, bilateral trade 35 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 3: deficits for various countries they're not a crisis. They're not 36 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 3: an unexpected problem given that they have existed for many decades, 37 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 3: and they're not even really a problem at all, because 38 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 3: having a bilateral deficit with a particular a country is 39 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 3: no more a crisis or a problem than me having 40 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 3: a trade deficit with my local supermarket. I buy from 41 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 3: them all the time, but sadly they virtually never buy 42 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 3: any of my books. I wish they would buy more 43 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 3: of them, but it's not a crisis or a problem. 44 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 3: And similarly, if, for instance, Canada or Mexico or some 45 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 3: other country, we buy more from them than vice versa, 46 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 3: that's not any kind of economic crisis or problem. Anyway, 47 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 3: then it's certainly not an emergency. But let's assume courts 48 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 3: say we're going to defert in the president's declaring an emergency. 49 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 3: Still there has to be an extraordinary and unusual threat. 50 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 3: It's very obvious that there's nothing extraordinary and unusual about 51 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 3: bilateral trade deficits of various countries. We've had them for 52 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 3: many decades. They're an inevitable aspect of international commerce to 53 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 3: some degree, and they're not a thread at all, much 54 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 3: less being an extraordinary or unusual threat. Then the Supreme 55 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: Court has said in several important decisions over the last 56 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 3: few years that when the executive says it has the 57 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 3: power to decide a major economic for a social or 58 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 3: political question, that they have to show the Congress clearly 59 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 3: delegated that power to them. It's not enough to have 60 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 3: an ambiguous statute here. It's very obvious that this is 61 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 3: a major question. Indeed, it's the biggest major question I've 62 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 3: ever seen in all my years of studying this doctrine, 63 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: because we're talking about the biggest tax increase on Americans 64 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: decades and the biggest trade war since the Great Depression. 65 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 3: If that is not a major question, I honestly do 66 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 3: not know what is. And it's also obvious that at 67 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: the very least it's not at all clear the Congress 68 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 3: is delegated under the statute the sweeping power to impose tariffs. 69 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 4: Finally, if you. 70 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 3: Do interpret the statute as delegating the power to impose 71 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 3: tariffs in this situation, which would essentially mean the president 72 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 3: could impose any tariff at any rate on any country 73 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 3: that he wants, for any reason, at any time, that 74 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 3: would bylight constitutional rules against excessive delegation of legislative power 75 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 3: to the executive. Those rules are not completely clear, and 76 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 3: the Supreme Court's president. But if you believe there are 77 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 3: any limits on congress visibility to delegate power to the 78 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 3: executive at all, then you've got to say those limits 79 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,559 Speaker 3: are breached here, where again you see virtually total user 80 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 3: pations of the power over tariffs. So if we were 81 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 3: to lose on these other previous points that I made, 82 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 3: then the court, I think, would have to rule that 83 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 3: this is unconstitutional unless they want to say there are 84 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 3: no limits whatsoever to Congress's power to delegate its authority 85 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 3: to the executive Because if they can just say, as 86 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 3: the administration claims, they have said that the president could 87 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 3: just enact any tariffs he wants at any time, for 88 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 3: any reason, in any magnitude, then you might as well 89 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: just say that, you know, Congress could similarly completely delegate 90 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 3: them the power to impose income taxes or virtually any 91 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 3: other powers. 92 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: Does it fit in anywhere that Trump's methodology in calculating 93 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 2: these tariffs seems odd. 94 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, the methodology is completely ridiculous. And this further underscores 95 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 3: the fact that there is no emergency and no extraordinary 96 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 3: and unusual threats, because what these tariffs are doing is 97 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: totally unrelated, even in many cases, to whether there really 98 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 3: is a deficit or not, or any kind of reciprocity. 99 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: Even countries would wish we have a trade surplus still 100 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 3: are included within these very high tariffs, and even countries 101 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 3: like Switzerland and Israel, which imposed no tariffs whatsoever on 102 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 3: US goods, they are still hit with high tariffs under 103 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 3: Trump's formula thirty one percent in the case of Switzerland 104 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 3: seventeen percent when it comes to Israel. 105 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 2: Congress doesn't seem inclined to stop Trump and the tariffs. 106 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 3: There is a bypartisan movement in Congress to try to 107 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 3: do that. I fear those that even if that effort 108 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 3: were to result in the passage of a law, Trump 109 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 3: would be to it. And at this point I do 110 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 3: not believe there are veto proof majorities to override that. 111 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 2: So a lot of times with these lawsuits over Trump's 112 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 2: executive actions, some of which courts have found unconstitutional or 113 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 2: illegal for whatever reason, the courts can't act fast enough 114 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 2: to stop the harm from occurring. So a lot of 115 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: harm as are ready occurred according to the plaintiffs in 116 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 2: your case, How fast do you think you can get 117 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 2: a court to rule on this? 118 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 3: So I think the court has considerable discretion over that. 119 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 3: But we will be speaking a preliminary injunction and a 120 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 3: temporary training order, which if we get it with blocks 121 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 3: the tariffs from being implemented while the case is litigated 122 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 3: to a final decision, and similar CROs techemporary's training orders 123 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 3: and preliminary injunctions have been granted in a number of 124 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 3: other cases challenging Trump's action. The birth rights citizenship cases 125 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 3: are a pretty clearly notable example. 126 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 2: So do you think you can meet the high standard 127 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: for getting a tro or preliminary injunction. 128 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 3: We believe we can. Obviously, it'll be up to the 129 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 3: court to this side. 130 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: There have been a few other lawsuits over Trump's tariffs, 131 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: one over the Canada tariffs and one over the first 132 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: China tariffs. Is your lawsuit broader than any of those 133 00:07:58,520 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: other suits? 134 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, this lawsuit is much broader in that, as you mentioned, 135 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 3: one of those lawsuits, brought by members the Black Seat 136 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 3: Nation Indian tribes, is specifically focused on Canada traffs, which 137 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 3: affect members of that Native American nation. The other one 138 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 3: is focused on the tariffs imposed on China in a 139 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 3: separate emergency decoration justified by the supposed FNS no imports 140 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 3: from China. Ours, on the other hand, targets the so 141 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 3: called Liberation Day tariffs, which imposed trade restrictions on almost 142 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 3: every nation in the world, and therefore the target we're 143 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 3: shooting at is much larger and also much more damaging 144 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 3: to the US economy and a bigger abuse of power. So 145 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: I believe that those other two watsuits also have merit, 146 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 3: because it's still the case that those other two watsuits 147 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 3: are aimed the tariffs under AEPA, the same laws, which 148 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 3: doesn't authorize those tariffs either. And I believe that those 149 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 3: other emergency decorations are also focused and also are about 150 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 3: things which are not an extraordinary and unusual threads. But 151 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 3: in our case, the government's position is even more ridiculous 152 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: than it is in those other two cases. And also 153 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 3: our case deals with a bigger issue because the magnitude 154 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 3: of these tariffs and a number of countries affected is 155 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 3: much larger. 156 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,599 Speaker 2: And can you tell us a little about the plaintiffs. 157 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: The small businesses that are plaintiffs in. 158 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 3: This case, The plaintiffs' trill small to medium sized businesses 159 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: that import from a wide range of countries. They range 160 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 3: in different industries from wineries to cycling, apparel and items 161 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 3: for children, And what they have in common is that 162 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 3: they import from countries that are tariffs severely under the 163 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 3: President's policy, and their businesses will be severely damaged unless 164 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: the tariffs are withed. And obviously their customers also suffer 165 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 3: from having higher prices. And if these businesses go under, 166 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 3: which could happen as a results of tariffs, obviously the 167 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 3: products that they sell will no longer be available in 168 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 3: the same way to the customers. So these five businesses, 169 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 3: whose situation is described in more detail at the Liberty 170 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 3: Justice Central website where we posted this information, they're a 171 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 3: microcosm of the broader, enormous damage that these tariffs will 172 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 3: due to our economy and less we are. 173 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: Able to stop them and tell us about some of 174 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 2: the practical implications of allowing the president to impose these tariffs. 175 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 3: So, I think, in addition to the purely legal issues, 176 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 3: it is just extremely dangerous to allow one man to 177 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 3: have essentially total control of tariffs and be able to 178 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 3: rip up at a US trade agreement at each time 179 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 3: he wants and destroy the world in US economy at 180 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 3: each time he wants. That makes this virtually impossible to 181 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 3: have meaningful trade agreements between the US and other countries, 182 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 3: because the President to just violate them at any time 183 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 3: as he's now dealing with the USMPA agreements that he 184 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 3: himself negotiated with Canada and Mexico. And also it destroys 185 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 3: the certainty and predictability the businesses, investors and consumers needs. 186 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 3: Why to invest in a factory or sign a contract 187 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 3: to the liver goods if you know that, you know 188 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 3: the arrangement can be destroyed at any time by you know, 189 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 3: the President waking up on the wrong side of his 190 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 3: bed and imposing massive tariffs that you make your arrangement unworkable. 191 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 3: And you know that is the kind of thing that 192 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 3: businesses in all kinds of industries have been telling us, 193 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 3: and economists across the political spectrum. 194 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: Also agreed, why did you decide to take part in 195 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: this particular litigation? 196 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 3: So I'm a law professor. I teach constitutional laws, and 197 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 3: in particular I've had an interest in issues related to 198 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 3: non delegation and major questions. So what I saw in February, 199 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 3: these initial attempts to use AIPA the same statute against 200 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 3: Canada and Mexico and China, I wrote a piece online 201 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: explaining some of the kinds of arguments that I just 202 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 3: outlined to you lawyers at the Liberty Justice Center of 203 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: Public Interest law firms bomb I Piece. They contacted me 204 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 3: and they said the arrengement potentially bringing along on this basis, 205 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: and when the Liberation Day tariffs happened, we saw that, 206 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 3: you know, now is the time to do this, and 207 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 3: they invited me to work with them on the case, 208 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 3: which Chili was more than happy to do. 209 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: Well, thanks so much for joining us today to talk 210 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 2: about it. That's law. Professor Ilia Sohman of George Mason 211 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: University and the State of California filed a suit today 212 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: over the tariffs, with arguments echoing those in the suit 213 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: by the small businesses. I'm June grossoh and you're listening 214 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 2: to Bloomberg. The nation's oldest and wealthiest university is digging 215 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: in for a fight with the Trump administration as it 216 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: attempts to reshape American higher education. This week, Harvard became 217 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 2: the first university to openly defy the Trump administration as 218 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 2: it demands sweeping changes to comply with Trump's political agenda. 219 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 2: In response, the federal government says it's freezing more than 220 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 2: two point two billion dollars in grants and sixty million 221 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: dollars in contract to Harvard. The hold on funding marks 222 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 2: the seventh time the Trump administration has taken such a 223 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: step at one of the nation's most elite colleges. Harvard's 224 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 2: professors already sued the administration on Friday over its demands, 225 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 2: and joining me is one of those professors, Ryan Enos, 226 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: a professor of government at Harvard. Ryan, can you tell 227 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,719 Speaker 2: us about the latest demands that Trump administration made for 228 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 2: changes at Harvard? 229 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, so, you know, these were demands that the federal 230 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 4: government and the actually, I shouldn't even say the federal government. 231 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 4: These are demands that the Trump administration and his loyalists 232 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:45,239 Speaker 4: in there have a direct role in the political ideology 233 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 4: of faculty and students. And that is something that should 234 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 4: really shock people because, you know, it's reminiscent of the 235 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 4: type of demands that would come out of for example, 236 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 4: MAOIs China, where they were a check on loyalty to 237 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 4: the regime among their intellectuals. And not only that, also 238 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 4: reminiscent of Maoice China. What it asked for was that 239 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 4: there essentially be a system of reporting where people could 240 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 4: report whether or not, you know, Harvard was staying loyal 241 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 4: to these demands made by the Trump administration and if 242 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 4: their reporting was unsatisfied, that there'd be consequences for that. 243 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 4: So in many ways, those were the most shocking parts 244 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 4: of those demands from the administration. 245 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: And this has all been couched in the accusations of 246 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 2: Harvard mishandling anti semitism on the campus. The orders went 247 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: far beyond that. 248 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 4: They did go far beyond it, and I think that 249 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 4: that is an important question for the following reason. What 250 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 4: it does is that reveals that what the Trump administration 251 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 4: was doing was not actually anything that actually addressed any 252 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 4: posed concerns with anti semitism, but was rather a pretext 253 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 4: for taking away power from universities. And that is what 254 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 4: authoritarians have done all across the world. Is when they 255 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 4: want to attack civil society and take power away from it, 256 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 4: what they do is they attack universities first under some 257 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 4: kind of pretext. And I can talk about lots of 258 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 4: examples of that. So Vladimir Putin attacked universities in Russia, 259 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 4: Erduban attacked universities in Turkey, Victor Orbon attacked universities in Hungary, 260 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 4: Hugo Chavez attacked them in Venezuela. And when we look 261 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 4: at these examples in every case, they have some kind 262 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 4: of a pretext, you know. Edrigan said it was because 263 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 4: of support for terrorism among professors, which maybe shows down 264 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 4: familiar to you when you hear some of the rhetoric 265 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 4: coming out of the Trump administration. And this was simply 266 00:15:55,080 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 4: because professors have signed petitions condemning the Turkish government's war 267 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 4: on kurts and then he eventually spread that to a 268 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 4: purging of all the universities. So that should sound familiar 269 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 4: to you where the Trump administration is the saying things 270 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 4: like support for terrorists on these campuses that is anti 271 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 4: Semitic or something like that, and then we are going 272 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 4: to come in and take control over who can be 273 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 4: the faculty at a university in Hungary, Orabon's complained about 274 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 4: foreign influence on the universities where he said there was 275 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 4: dangerous foreign influence, and then he used that as a 276 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 4: reason for the government to seize control of the universities 277 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 4: and eventually fire faculty and remake the faculty in those 278 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 4: universities as well. So there's always the pretext for these 279 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 4: kinds of things. And many of us have been saying 280 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 4: for quite some time that that was just a pretext 281 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 4: that the Trump administration did not actually care about any 282 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 4: kind of policy, and it most certainly does not care 283 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 4: about anti Semitism, and that should be plainly obvious to everybody, 284 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 4: because of course the Trump administration seems to coddle and 285 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 4: sometimes even platform anti Semites, and so if you know, 286 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 4: obviously it doesn't care about those things, and that of 287 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 4: course was played out, was shown to be true when 288 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 4: they set these list of demands. It had nothing to 289 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 4: do with anti Semitism. It was rather just excuses to 290 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 4: bring universities under his power. 291 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: So you have billions of dollars in federal funds and 292 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 2: hanging in the balance. How do you weigh that against 293 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 2: what you're trying to protect as an institution. 294 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 4: Well, look, I think it's important to emphasize just what 295 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 4: crucial moment this is for American society, and not just 296 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 4: higher education, but American society more generally. And what I 297 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 4: mean by that is, I don't think you will find 298 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 4: an American anywhere that is going to say we are 299 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 4: willing to trade our freedom for you know, saving some 300 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 4: kind of money. You can't put a price on freedom. 301 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 4: You can't put a price on freedom speech, you can't 302 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 4: put a price on freedom of conscience. You can't put 303 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 4: a price on the freedom to think and write what 304 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 4: we want. And it should be very clear to everybody 305 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 4: that that is what the Trump administration is doing. You know, 306 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 4: they have picked up students off the streets for things 307 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 4: they wrote in student newspapers, and you know, there cannot 308 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 4: be a clearer attack on free speech. There cannot be 309 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 4: a clearer attack on free speech and trying to control 310 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 4: the ideology of university professors. And so ultimately, you know, 311 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 4: I would rather Harvard give away, you know, billions and 312 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 4: billions of dollars rather than bow to a regime that 313 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 4: is trying to curtail our liberties. And I think most 314 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 4: Americans would agree with that. But I think it's also 315 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 4: worth saying that the long term economic health of these universities, 316 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 4: of course, does mean that they stand up for the 317 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 4: rule of law now, because things like federal grants and 318 00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 4: the relationship between federal scientific funding and universities require that 319 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 4: that is set by the rule of law. That you know, 320 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 4: that money that is appropriated by Congress eventually gets to 321 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 4: those universities, not that it can be controlled on the 322 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 4: whim of a president who tries to punish his political enemies, 323 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 4: and so you know, Harvard could choose to save two 324 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 4: billion dollars now, but what happens the next time it 325 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 4: does something that upsets the Trump administration, They're just going 326 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,239 Speaker 4: to try to take that money away again. So, you know, 327 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 4: just like with a schoolyard bully that just keeps coming 328 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 4: back for your lunch money, you know, you have to 329 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 4: put your foot down and say, you know, you're essentially 330 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 4: gonna have to fight me over that. And I think 331 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 4: that's what Harvard has done, and it's of course the 332 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 4: right move in the long term. 333 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 2: From an outside view, it seems like Trump is holding 334 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: all the cards. So now he's escalating the fight by 335 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: threatening Harvard's tax exempt status. 336 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 4: Right. Well, one thing to keep in mind, of course, 337 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 4: is that Trump has no legal authority to do that. Right. 338 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 4: You know, I'm not a lawyer, but I know some 339 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 4: very good lawyers at Harvard Law School, and they say, 340 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 4: you know this is you know clear as day that 341 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 4: first of all, you know, these original claims to withhold 342 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 4: are illegal, even setting aside the First Amendment, they're illegal 343 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 4: by statutory law, and claims to take away tax exempt 344 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 4: status is against statutory law as well, because those things 345 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 4: are supposed to be decided by a review of the facts, 346 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 4: not by order the president of the United States. And 347 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 4: so the point in all this is that Harvard in 348 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 4: many ways is holding the cards because it can fight 349 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 4: these things in court and will probably win. Now, the danger, 350 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 4: of course, is that you know, the Trump administration can 351 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 4: just find reasons to keep coming and that's going to 352 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 4: be expensive for Harvard, there's no doubt. But Harvard also 353 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 4: needs to fight this thing in the court of public opinion, 354 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 4: you know, And that's one way you defeat authoritarians is 355 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 4: you prove what they're doing is very unpopular. There's a 356 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 4: lot of political science on this, for example, and in 357 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 4: the long run, I think that Harvard has win an 358 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 4: argument on this, which is that in the United States, 359 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 4: we don't tell universities what they can and can't do. 360 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 4: We don't tell people what they can and can't think, 361 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 4: and we don't tell them what they can and can't say. 362 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 4: That is not what freedom of speech is about here. 363 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: Do you think that when other universities capitulate and try 364 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 2: to meet his demands like Columbia did, do you think 365 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 2: it hurts Harvard's position? 366 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, it definitely does. I mean but I think there, 367 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 4: of course, can be a domino effect on these things. 368 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 4: And you know, a lot of people have been arguing 369 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 4: that when universities start to fall, it makes it harder 370 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 4: for other ones to stand up and fight back. But 371 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 4: you know, of course, what we also see is the 372 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 4: opposite that can occur too, that when one university stands up, 373 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 4: that other universities can stand up and fight back as well. 374 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 4: And you know, one of the reasons that so many 375 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 4: people had been urging Harvard to do the right thing 376 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 4: was because Harvard had the resources to stand up to 377 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 4: take these punches, if you will, for other universities that 378 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 4: also wanted to stand up. And you know, in many ways, 379 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 4: it's sort of fulfilling a duty that comes with it 380 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 4: being the richest and most famous university in the world, 381 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 4: is to fulfill his duty to society. 382 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 2: And jellibet the lawsuit by the university's professors, so you. 383 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 4: Know, the AUP, which I'm a member of, filed a 384 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 4: lawsuit against the Trump administration, saying that it had violated 385 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 4: not only the free speech of protections that all Americans enjoy, 386 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 4: but also that it had violated statutory law by not 387 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 4: going through the proper process of withholding funds through Title 388 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 4: STIX of the Civil Rights Law, which is what the 389 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 4: Trump administration is pointing to, because those require that if 390 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 4: there is a violation, which a Trump administration didn't show, 391 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 4: but that those be targeted to the specific units where 392 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 4: that violation had occurred, not that they're held over or 393 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 4: an institution more generally. And so the newly formed AUPA 394 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 4: chapter that was just formed last year filed suit against 395 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 4: the Trump administration based on that. 396 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 2: And AAUP standing for American Association of University Professors for 397 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 2: those not in. 398 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 4: The know, but you know, I should say that what 399 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 4: I do here from many many other professors across the 400 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 4: country is people that were waiting for Harvard to stand 401 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 4: up and join it. And of course what we see 402 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 4: now is we've seen a lot of faculty, in fact, 403 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 4: we're getting ready to release some information on this tomorrow 404 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 4: where faculty from across the country at least at seventeen 405 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 4: different universities have signed letters to their leadership like we 406 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 4: signed here at Harvard, asking them to essentially join the 407 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 4: fight against these sort of attacks. 408 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 2: I mean, do you think this is Trump waging a 409 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: war on the elite or it's something different. 410 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 4: It's not just a war on the elite. You know, 411 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 4: attacking elites is part of that, of course, because you 412 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 4: know that's what populists do, and Trump's trying to sell 413 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 4: himself even though he is the most you know, elite 414 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 4: of people you could possibly imagine, and so like many 415 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 4: things Trump does, it rings hollow. But part of it 416 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 4: is this kind of populist attack on elites. But it 417 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 4: goes deeper than that, because what Trump is trying to 418 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 4: do is to attack pillars of civil society that allow 419 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 4: for descent. And the reason we know that is because 420 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 4: if you look at every authoritarian, including ones that Trump 421 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 4: openly admires, like Arabon and Pudin, what they do is 422 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 4: they attack three pillars of civil society that can push 423 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 4: back against the government. They attack lawyers, they attack the press, 424 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 4: and they attack universities. And that is exactly what Trump 425 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 4: is doing. That fits the pattern exactly. And so it's 426 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 4: not about someplace being elite, but it's about a place 427 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 4: being a home of free thought that could provide descent 428 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 4: to what the regime is trying to do. 429 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 2: Thanks for the conversation, Ryan. That's Harvard professor Ryan Enos. 430 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: He was deported. They needed one additional step in paperwork, 431 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: but now MS thirteen is characterized as they should be, 432 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: as an FTO, as a foreign terrorist organization, so he 433 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: is not coming back to our country. 434 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 2: Attorney General Pam Bondi is doubling down on the Trump 435 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 2: administration's assertion that Kilmore Abrego Garcia, who is deported to L. 436 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 2: Salvador in violation of a court order, will not be 437 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: returning to the United States, placing the blame on L. 438 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 2: Salvador's president. 439 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 1: He is not coming back to our country. President Buquele 440 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: said he was not sending him back. That's the end 441 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: of the story. 442 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 2: But it appears to be far from the end of 443 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 2: the story. Just last Friday, the Supreme Court ordered the 444 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 2: government to quote facilitate Abrego Garcia's release from custody in L. 445 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 2: Salvador and to ensure that his case is handled as 446 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 2: it would have been had he not been improperly sent 447 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 2: to L. Salvador, and the federal judge overseeing Garcia's case 448 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 2: has threatened to find the government in contempt of court 449 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 2: and ordered depositions of administration officials, citing a lack of 450 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 2: evidence that steps have been taken to return him. Joining 451 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 2: me is David Voriakiz Bloomberg Legal reporter David tell us 452 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 2: about the hearing yesterday about Garcia. 453 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 5: The Federal District judge in Greenbelt, Maryland, Paulaxinis, questioned a 454 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 5: Justice Department lawyer closely about why they had not given 455 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 5: details to her about what they're doing to return mister 456 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 5: Abrego Garcia. As you recall, he was wrongly deported last 457 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 5: month to a megaprison in Al Salvador, and a judge 458 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 5: in twenty nineteen said in an immigration court that he 459 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 5: could not be deported to El Salador. The US later 460 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 5: admitted that he was wrongly deported. The judge now wants 461 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 5: to know why the US has not given her answers 462 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 5: about what they're doing to facilitate his return. And this 463 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 5: case has gone to the Supreme Court, which ordered the 464 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 5: United States to work to facilitate his return. She's trying 465 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 5: to execute that order and she's growing frustrated because the 466 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 5: Justice Department is not giving her answers. So at the 467 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 5: hearing yesterday, Judge Zenas said the US has two weeks 468 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 5: to provide answers and that officials from the Trump administration 469 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 5: would have to answer questions under oath about what they've 470 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 5: done or not done. 471 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 2: I mean, did the Trump administration lawyers say, yes, your honor, 472 00:27:58,600 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 2: we'll comply with that. 473 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 5: They, as they have in the past, disagreed with the 474 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 5: judge's interpretation of the law in this case. That led 475 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 5: to her further frustration. She felt there was no reason 476 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 5: for disagreement, but the Justice Department lawyer repeatedly said that 477 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 5: we need to figure out what facilitate means here, what 478 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 5: the legal meaning of facilitation is, and she believes that 479 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 5: it's quite clear and the Supreme Court made it clear. 480 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 5: But the Trump administration's position is that there's room for 481 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 5: interpretation about just what the Supreme Court said. 482 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,959 Speaker 2: So we've talked before about that extraordinary Oval Office meeting 483 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 2: with Bukele, the president of El Salvador, where basically he 484 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: said he's not going to return Garcia, and the Attorney 485 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: General said, well, it's up to l Salvador whether to 486 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 2: return Garcia. 487 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 5: Was that mentioned in this There was a discussion of 488 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 5: that Oval Office meeting. The Justice Department lawyer Drew Ensign 489 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 5: raised it, and the judge essentially cut him off and said, 490 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 5: I don't care what he said. I don't care about 491 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 5: your press releases. It's not in a sworn court statement. 492 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 5: I've asked you to give me filings that are under 493 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 5: oath that you'll attest to, and you have not done that. 494 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 2: So for right now, there's absolutely no movement to get 495 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 2: Garcia out. 496 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 5: That's correct. The movement is in the judge trying to 497 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 5: nudge the Justice Department and the Department of Homeland Security 498 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 5: for answers about why they have not acted to facilitate 499 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 5: his release. 500 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 2: I think this case is going back to the Supreme Court. 501 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: It's just a question of how fast. And Today Marilynd 502 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 2: Senator Chris van Holland traveled to l Salvador and met 503 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: with the country's vice president to push for the release 504 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 2: of Garcia. 505 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 3: I told his wife and his family I would do 506 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 3: everything possible to bring him home, and we're going to 507 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 3: keep working at this until we're successful. 508 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 2: Van Holland said the Vice president wouldn't even let him 509 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 2: visit this notorious gang prison where Garcia is being held, 510 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: and said that his government could not return Garcia to 511 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 2: the United States. Let's turn to another case involving the 512 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: deportations to El Salvador. Today, DC Federal Judge James Boseberg 513 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 2: found probable cause to hold Trump administration officials in criminal 514 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 2: contempt of court because of their actions in the deportations. 515 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 2: Remind us how we got to this point, David. 516 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 5: On March fifteenth, the US flew three flights to El 517 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 5: Salvador with about two hundred and fifty suspected gang members, 518 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 5: and about half of those were people who were deported 519 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 5: under the Alien Enemies Act. And that afternoon, Judge Boseburg 520 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 5: in Washington had a hearing in which he explicitly told 521 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 5: the Justice Department lawyer that if there are flights in 522 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 5: the air, I want them turned around and I want 523 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 5: those planes back in the United States. He took a break, 524 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 5: the Justice Department lawyer consulted with his superiors and said 525 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 5: essentially he had no information to report to the judge. 526 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 5: Of course, as it turned out, the planes landed and 527 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 5: all of those people are in this megaprison in l Salvador. 528 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 5: The judge then, in early April, had a hearing to 529 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 5: consider whether he should bring contempt charges against the Trump 530 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 5: administration for defying his oral order that day on March fifteenth, 531 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 5: and today he issued in order that said there's probable 532 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 5: cause to hold Trump administration officials in criminal contempt for 533 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 5: defying his order. He's given them an opportunity to correct 534 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 5: whatever problems they committed, and we're waiting now to see 535 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 5: what the Trump administration's response will be. He said that 536 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 5: depending on that response, he may refer specific individuals who 537 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 5: he has not identified yet, for criminal prosecution. If the 538 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 5: Justice Department decides they will not pursue a prosecution of 539 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,479 Speaker 5: those individuals, which seems unlikely, Judge Bosburg would appoint his 540 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 5: own lawyer to pursue it. 541 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 2: The planes have already landed in El Salvador. The Venezuelans 542 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 2: are in prison there. What could the Trump administration do 543 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 2: to correct their mistake? Does he expect them to fly 544 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 2: the more than two hundred people back, I mean, what 545 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: could correct their mistake? 546 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 5: Well, the judge has said essentially that potentially they could 547 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 5: have the people returned to the US to make their 548 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 5: case to a federal judge in the United States because 549 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 5: they were deported without due process. That's the issue here 550 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 5: is they had no opportunity to dispute whether they are 551 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 5: gang members of Trenda Arragua, which the United States and 552 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:30,479 Speaker 5: President Trump cited in a March fifteenth proclamation that said 553 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 5: they were subject to deportation as alien enemies. 554 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 2: A complication is that the Supreme Court ruled that Judge 555 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: Bosburg basically didn't have jurisdiction over the Venezuelans, that they 556 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 2: had to try to get released through habeas corpus petitions 557 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 2: in the place where they were being held. But he's 558 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 2: acting as if he has jurisdiction over the Venezuelans in 559 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: El Salvador. 560 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 5: The judge said in his order today that even though 561 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 5: the case was essentially transferred out from under him, he 562 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 5: still retains jurisdiction to bring a contempt case because that 563 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 5: would be a violation of the Constitution. He cited an 564 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 5: eighteen nine Supreme Court opinion that said it would make 565 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 5: a solemn mockery of the Constitution itself if administration officials 566 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 5: willfully disobeyed judicial orders. 567 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 2: And the Trump administration has already said that it's going 568 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 2: to seek immediate appellate relief. No surprise there. Thanks so 569 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,280 Speaker 2: much for keeping us up to date on these cases. David. 570 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 2: That's Bloomberg Legal reporter David Voriakis, and that's it for 571 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 2: this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can 572 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. 573 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 2: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at 574 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 2: www dot bloomberg dot com slash podcast Law and remember 575 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 2: to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at 576 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 2: ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and you're 577 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 2: listening to Bloomberg