WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 10: The Loop 0:00:01.080 --> 0:00:03.720 Welcome back to another edition of The Yoke with Doke. 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.680 Tom and I are again joined by Don Plasik, Renaissance 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:14.600 Golf design associate. In this episode, we discussed Tom's revolutionary 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:19.279 reversible golf course, The Loop, which is located at the 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:26.400 Forest Dunes Resort in Roscommon, Michigan. As always, reminder to 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:32.040 check out Renaissancegolf dot com and Tom's books, The Confidential 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:37.239 Guides to Golf Courses and The Little Red Book on 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:42.760 Golf Course Architecture. They're both fantastic resources to learn more 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:47.720 about architecture different courses around the world. Really great resource 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.680 to help you travel smarter. So, without further ado, here 0:00:51.880 --> 0:01:03.000 is the latest episode of The Yoke with Dok. 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:04.000 Tom. 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.720 Dolk is back and as usual, he's not holding back. 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:13.360 But don't toss the Yulk and the famously candid Oak 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:14.720 doesn't pull any punches. 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.920 How do I make natural looking contour hire the biggest 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:20.800 pool in the village? 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.800 I told him to make it flat, burst, overrated, underrated, rough, 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:37.640 terribly overrated. Over the years, how long had you wanted 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:39.319 to build a reversible golf course? 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:46.760 More than twenty years? I mean, I didn't really honestly 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.800 think that we'd ever do it on a full eighteen 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.600 whole project. I thought maybe a nine hole project or something, 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:58.080 or even smaller. I mean, the idea comes from the 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.200 first place I saw it was Tom Simpson's book about 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:03.840 golf course architecture, which is written in the late twenties. 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.400 He had a little appendix in back. Now Simpson built, 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.280 you know, he didn't build a lot of courses. He built. 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:17.440 He built several like private estate courses for the Rothschilds 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:21.639 and like the richest families in Europe and Britain. And 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:25.360 most of them were not eighteen hole golf courses. Some 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.560 of them were nine holes, some of them were six holes, 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.280 some of them were just three holes. And you know, 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:33.919 having three holes in your backyard would be kind of cool, 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:36.200 and it'd be very you know, it's a lot better 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.240 than trying to keep maintaining eighteen holes in your backyard. 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:41.799 But by the same token, would get pretty boring after 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:43.840 a while to just play the same three holes over 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:47.959 and over again. So instead of just you know, putting 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.519 in different tees and having multiple teas, or even putting 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.840 in alternate greens, he tried to design one that you 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.040 could play forwards and backwards, in the holes would be 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:02.120 really different. And he put this little illustration in the 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:04.639 back of his book of how that worked, like a 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.840 triangle of holes and how how the you know, the 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:11.680 fairways would like stop and start again, and so you 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.440 were hop into completely different places when you came back 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.600 the other direction, and it was really neat. It just 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.520 looked fascinating. And you know, I don't know that if 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.040 that was the actual plan for one of the estate 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.040 courses that he built, or it was just a doodle 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:28.400 that he did of you know, here's how you could 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.359 do it. But I you know, I saw that when 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.040 I was like twenty years old and thought I'd be 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:36.800 cool to do someday something like that. So it kind 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:39.240 of always been in the back of my mind of 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.640 that would be cool to do someday. But you know, 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:44.920 where would that even where where would that make any 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:48.160 sense at all? You know, who would want that? And 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:50.760 what kind of land would that work on? Clearly there's 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:53.600 some kinds of you know, the more dramatic the land is, 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.520 the harder it is to do that, and the less 0:03:57.560 --> 0:03:59.320 you'd want to do it, you know, when you're you know, 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.400 part of golf course architecture is like trying to lay 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.440 out holes. So you're you're walking through the property a 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.720 certain way and you're looking at the best views. So 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:11.440 to say, okay, now I'm going to flip that all 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:13.760 on its head and do it exactly backwards from the 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.840 way I set it up for everybody. That doesn't make 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.240 a lot of sense on its face. So it would 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.320 only really, it only really makes sense on a property 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.800 that's kind of dull. You know, you don't have a 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.400 lot of great views. You don't have like big up 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:32.600 and down features. You know. The more the more if 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.839 you had sand dunes in the way, or you're playing 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:40.920 up and over hills, you would inevitably have some blind shots. 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.080 You know, like you could play up and over go 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:48.400 in one direction and have have you just getting to 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:50.320 the landing area when you got to the top of 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:55.279 the hill. But unless the whole was exactly twice that long, 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.240 when you're coming back the other way, the hill would 0:04:58.240 --> 0:04:59.720 be one hundred yards in front of the tee and 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:01.640 you could and see anything over the top of it, 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.960 and nobody would think that was very good. So I 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:07.800 kind of decided, well, the only piece of land that 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:09.960 would make sense on would have to be pretty flat, 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:11.280 you know. 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:12.200 And. 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.560 One other time we actually had a client we thought 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.800 he might go for this. That's the only reason all 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.320 the guys in my office knew about it was when 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:27.839 we when we were brainstorming the Rawles course at Texas Tech, 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.000 which was a dead flat piece of land. One of 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.640 the concepts we came up. One of the concepts we 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:37.120 tried out was doing a reversible golf course. You know, 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.040 the client was an engineer. That Jerry Rawls, the guy 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.719 who funded the golf course, was an engineer. He was 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:47.000 like a electrical engineer. He was a chip maker in 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.040 Silicon Valley. That's where he got the money to give 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.000 the Texas Tech to build a golf course. And I thought, 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:54.560 I don't know him that well, but this might appeal 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:56.360 to him. He's got that kind of brain. I think 0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:00.760 that's why it appealed to me. But he was not 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.040 interested in it. Mostly, you know, I warned him that 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:06.800 if we did it that way, it was going to 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.359 be hard to make it pretty because you know, it 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.520 was hard to make the backgrounds work two different directions, 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.000 so it would be hard to landscape it and make 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:19.400 it really look pretty. And it, you know, that site 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.680 was not very pretty. To start with, so he was 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.240 concerned that it just wouldn't look good enough, so we 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:27.800 tabled it and built the golf course that we did. 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:30.680 I didn't think much about it again for a while, 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:35.000 other than everybody around me had seen that concept and 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.159 they were like, well, that'd be really cool to do 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:42.080 that someday. And then you know, I kind of stumble 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:46.240 into going to interview for this job to do a 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:50.560 new course at Forrest Dudentes. It was actually I was 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.360 They put me in the Michigan Golf Hall of Fame, 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.000 and I went down for the like induction ceremony and 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.320 it had give a little speech. I was talking about how, 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.359 you know, at the beginning of my career, I didn't 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:06.800 want to be labeled a Michigan architect, and I wanted 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:09.200 to get out and do things in other places so 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:11.880 I wouldn't get type cast as just working around here. 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.720 But you know, now that I'd been traveling all over 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:17.720 the world the last twenty years, I'd really love to 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:20.880 do a couple more projects close to home. And a 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.400 bunch of friends that I've known for twenty five years 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.840 were in the audience, and two of them went from 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.480 there up to some event at Forest Dunes, and the 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:33.800 managers started talking about how, oh they're looking at do 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:37.240 another golf course. And these guys are like, you've got 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.760 to talk to Tom. You know, they talked to a 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.320 couple other architects already. For whatever reason, they weren't thinking 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.760 a call in me. I think they thought I'd be 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:49.320 too high priced or something. And these guys were like, no, no, no, 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.280 we just you know, we just came from We just 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:53.560 saw him. He was just talking about how he'd like 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:55.680 to do another course in Michigan. So you've got to 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.560 talk to him. So I went over there to look 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:05.560 at the ground and it was almost exactly the kind 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.200 of ground I thought would work good for this concept. 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.960 You know, it was relatively flat. There were some little 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.880 like valleys through it in places, but nothing's sticking up 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:20.480 real big. It was all sandy, which helps because you 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.680 don't have to worry about you know, you don't have 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:26.480 to create the area outside the fair way. You can 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:31.120 let it go and it's still playable, so you don't 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.000 have to build it super wide in both directions. Necessarily. 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:37.559 There were some trees, but they weren't like you know, 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.080 there weren't like a bunch of huge, beautiful oak trees 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:42.360 that were going to get in the way come in 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:46.360 one way or the other. So I'm just and I'm 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:48.280 just looking at and there weren't views off the property 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:52.800 very much. I'm just walking around thinking, this kind of 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:57.480 looks like that kind of property. So then I sat 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:04.240 down with the owner, Lou Thompson, who had bought Forest 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.560 Students out of bankruptcy, basically bought it for bought the 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:13.000 whole place for not much money, and you know, so, 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.600 but he hadn't developed it. This was the first time 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.640 he was going to develop a golf course. He just 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.840 stumbled into owning this golf course that had a bunch 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.000 of extra acreage and it looked like it made sense 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:26.439 to build another course. So he hadn't He didn't know 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.240 anything about the process really, So he's interviewing architects and 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.640 he's like, you know, so he's not from the golf business, 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:35.400 and he's not you know, he's not your typical client. 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.080 He's not answering questions the same way most do. You know, 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:40.920 most clients, when I ask him what they want, they 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:42.959 tell me all the things that are on Golf Digest 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:47.360 list of what makes a great golf course. Lou didn't 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:49.560 know to do that. You know, I asked him what 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:54.320 he wanted and he said two things. He said, the 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.200 reason I'm doing this is to get people to stay 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.400 here and play again the next day. You know, I 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.800 have the one golf course, but it's kind of on 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.760 the way from Detroit to Gaylord where all the other 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.720 golf courses are. So people just stop through here and 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.320 play and then they leave. They don't even stay and 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.680 have a drink, they don't stay for dinner. So this 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.480 place just loses crazy money in the clubhouse because nobody 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:20.640 sticks around. So I want, you know, I want people 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.600 to stay here. We'll build some more lodging and that's 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.240 the goal, is to get people to just stay here 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:32.720 instead of going up to Gailor. And he said, and 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.480 I want something that's going to wow people. And I'm 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:40.800 looking at like, well, it's not gonna wow people with 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:46.000 this site. You know, the site's not that spectacular. But 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:49.520 this concept that I've had for years in the back 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.360 of my head, if I could pull that off, that 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.840 would that would wow people. And this guy is just 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.760 far enough removed from the golf business you might actually 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.640 get that and go with it. So I didn't tell 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:07.160 him right away, came back to the office. We started 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:09.000 trying to rout a golf course kind of in the 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:12.680 normal way. But you know, while I'm while we're doing it, 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.600 I'm thinking, well, you know this is going to work 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.080 backwards too, how can we make it work backwards? So 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.600 you can't, really, you don't. You can't route it both 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:22.360 ways at the same time. You got to kind of 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:26.079 work on a routing for one way, but then think through, Okay, 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.440 that's not going to work backwards. I'll have to change 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.280 this or that in order to make it work. So 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:35.640 Don and I played around with that, and then I 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.040 went back over there to you know, formally interview and 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.800 show him my idea, and I just we had the 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.360 maps rolled up and I unrolled him and I and 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.280 I was showing him the one way around, just talking 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:54.120 about it. I got all done, and he goes, well, 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:59.160 that looks good, but you know, you said you're going 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.200 to do something really different, and I don't see what's 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.199 really different about that. And I pulled the one map 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.679 off and had the other map underneath showing how you 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.080 played it backwards, and said, well, it's also designed to 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:16.079 be played backwards. The next day, and everybody in the 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.839 room sat there kind of half stunned for about two minutes. Well, 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.439 they were trying to understand what that meant. And as 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.360 soon as they understood what it meant, they were like, 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:27.840 this is what we wanted to do. 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:36.840 I imagine that with Thompson. He made his money in trucking. 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:37.200 Yep. 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.120 So he's a very utilitarian I mean, like I worked 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.840 in trucking industry a little, no fact, but the you know, 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.000 the big thing is always getting take a load somewhere, 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:48.120 getting a load back. 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.319 You know that's true. I didn't even think about it, 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.600 you know it. He probably understood that much better because 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:56.960 that is his business exactly. You know he does his 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:02.920 trucking business is all almost entirely doing stuff for butterball turkey. Yeah. 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:06.520 But he does everything from like haul in the turkeys 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.040 to slaughter and then haul in the turkeys to market, 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.480 but also haul in the feed. So he hauls the 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:14.920 feed to the turkeys, he hauls the turkeys to the 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.720 processing plant, he hauls the turkeys from the processing plant 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.680 to stores, and he just keeps making loops back and forth, 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:23.840 so the truck's always full. 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.920 Yeah, and so it's the same idea as connecting a 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.000 route and being able to go back around the route. 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.440 I never thought of that I've got. I'm curious to 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.839 ask him if he thought about it that way, because 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.040 he never said it that way directly, But it would 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.200 make the internal logic would work perfect for lou and 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:45.640 he's he's a very practical guy. 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:53.160 So to make the course reversible. Ian McGregor wants to 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:58.120 know what concessions it came with it. 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:02.400 It's funny because that's every question anybody that I ever 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:06.840 talked to about this concept. They always make the assumption 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.800 that you're giving things up, that oh, it would have 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:17.320 been better if you know. I mean we call one 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:19.760 way the Black Horse and the other way the Red Course. 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:26.760 So you say the first three holes in the black 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:32.120 course were better in that direction, but then the fourth 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.400 hole you would have rather played the other way around? 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:36.760 Could you know? Couldn't you have figured it out that 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:38.840 you know, there's there's always a bet, you know, which 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.320 is better the first hole on the black course or 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.440 the eighteenth hole on the Red course that comes back 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.720 the other way. Why wouldn't you choose the best out 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.600 of every one of those and put them together a 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.520 because those don't fit together. You know, it's not that simple. 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:55.800 You have to have a routing that connects a bunch 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.400 of things. So so it's not like if you know, 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.560 if you made me, if you made me, what are 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:05.320 the what are the five best holes there now? Or 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.600 ten best holes there now? For sure some of them 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.960 would be the same fairway playing in both directions, or 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:16.200 the same green played from two different angles. So you 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.920 can't really get that's way if you work on routings enough. 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.960 There are always concessions in routing a golf course. I 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.560 don't think we really made a lot more concessions to 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.840 get it to be reversible, not as many as everybody thinks. 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.400 I mean, there's just there's better parts of the land 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.840 and there's parts that aren't quite as cool, but you 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.080 have to use them both. So I don't think that 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:44.720 we gave up that much to do it. And I 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.640 was and I was perfectly willing to make those trade 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:50.760 offs in order to do whatever trade offs I was making. 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.000 It's like, if I can make this work in both 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:57.360 directions and people think it's cool in both directions, that's great, 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:01.400 then the other the other more our practical question is, 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:07.200 you know, how much do you have to manipulate it 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:10.200 so one way around isn't a lot better than the 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.920 other way around, because at the end of the day, 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:15.880 if one way around is much better than the other 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.560 way around, the demand will be way higher for that 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.640 and they'll abandon playing at reversible. You know the old 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.800 course of Saint Andrew's is that Originally at the old 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.360 course you were playing out to one flag on a 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:34.160 green and back to the same flag on the same green. 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:37.720 And then it got a little too busy for that, 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.080 so they widened out the greens and they made the 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.320 double greens. But when they did that, they didn't have 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:47.160 a clear which was the way to go. Do you 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.400 start up number one or do you start back down 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:55.760 number eighteen? And they did both for several years. I 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.880 don't know how they decided when to alternate them, but 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.360 they did both for several years. And supposedly at least 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:04.639 one of the opens played in Saint Andrew's in the 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.399 eighteen hundreds was played backwards from the present golf course. 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.280 So I knew that history. That wasn't where I got 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.679 the idea, but I knew the history, and I understood, now, 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.679 why isn't the old course that way? Anymore because everybody 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.399 wants to play the road hole, and everybody wants to 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:23.439 play eleven that way. All the famous the three or 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.600 four famous holes that everybody's got like in their mind, 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.359 I'm going there to see this. They're all based on 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.399 going down the right side off at number one and 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.080 coming back up the right side, going coming back up 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:39.679 seventeen and eighteen. So there's you know, they do, or 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.840 they did for a little while, introduced playing the golf 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:44.720 course backwards for a couple of days a year in 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.280 the spring. They pretty much gave that up. Well, they 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.120 gave it up a long time ago because nobody wanted 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.680 to play it that way anymore. You know, once everybody 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.479 got familiar with the road hole and the other famous holes, 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.200 that was the kiss of death for the other way around. 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.800 And so much of that has to What also hindered 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.320 that is the television and the championship history. Sure it's 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.840 nobody's going to the old course and dropping down what 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.439 is it, five hundred pounds or whatever it is and 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.520 and getting to play that the other way around. That's 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:20.840 not as famous. I mean, I bet there's a lot 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.040 of golf nerds that would play to go play it 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:24.640 that way. 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:26.639 Don and I. Don and I and Eric did it 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.320 when they were doing it ten fifteen years ago. They 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:32.960 started on an April Fool's Day one year. You know, 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.800 it's not a busy time in Saint Andrew's. They said, oh, 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.240 April first, everybody plays backwards. We'll see if anybody wants 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:42.360 to come for this, And people did so, like they 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.480 did two or three days a year where you would 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.359 like buy, you know, you bought a package where you 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:49.920 played that way and then you played the other way 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.879 around a day or two later. And and it happened 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:55.880 to be while we were working on the Renaissance Club. 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.080 So Don and I and Eric did that because after 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:02.479 we talked about it it for Texas Tech, and I 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:04.600 was always curious about it. I didn't think it would 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:06.640 work that well. And you know, I know the old 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:11.600 course really well. So I think Donald vouched that there 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.080 were a couple holes. It was really almost impossible figure 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.600 out what to do if I didn't know what was 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.600 in the fairway coming the other way, because you do. 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.920 There are really holes that you know, they'd abandon playing 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:26.919 that way for so long that they'd stop mowing some 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.120 patches that were important, like they stopped mowing the off 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.320 the back of the green that you needed to bounce 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.680 it on, or you know, they don't. You know, you're 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.919 hitting over bushes off the tee now, but they're in 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:43.560 the approach if you're playing it backwards. So it was 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:44.400 kind of awkward. 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.760 The old courses A ten in the confidential guys, what 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:50.720 would be the reversed old course. 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.560 Five, five or six. I mean, you still got the 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.119 cool greens complexes, and you can kind of wind up 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.600 in the same place. But you know, it might be 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:04.560 a little better than that if they if they would 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.399 mow it all back and fix some of the things 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:12.159 that have grown grown wrong over time. But it's not 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:14.919 it's not a great It doesn't have the great holes 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.639 that you get really attached to. The one hole that 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:22.280 your listeners could visualize really easily that's a really good 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.720 hole is if you're playing at backwards, the very first 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:29.800 hole is playing from from you're really playing from one 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:34.320 te across, you know, down the left side into eighteen 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.359 fairway more and then into the back of the road green. 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.520 So now the roads on the left, the bunkers on 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.359 the right, you know what's normally the front part of 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:45.439 the green is still sticking out behind the green to 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.280 the right. You know, it'd be a great hole, except 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.440 it's the first hole and it's a brutal. 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:57.720 Start four with Oh no, no, no, it's not long four. 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:00.720 That's right. One of the odd things about the reversible 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:05.880 golf course is the fair way that you're playing backwards 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:08.879 and the green that you're playing two backwards are not 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.280 attached to the same hole. You know, like when you 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:14.959 play when you play the eighteenth fair way backwards, you're 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:19.280 playing to seventeen green, and when you play the first 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:22.919 hole backwards, you're playing to eighteen green. So the you know, 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:27.000 so the green changes one direction. The green's not like, 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:29.639 it's not a short part four. Go in both directions. 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:32.720 One hole might be a long part four, but the 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:34.320 hole coming in the other way might be a part 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.000 three or a short part four or something different. Yeah, 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.480 that's actually one of the things that makes it more 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:43.680 interesting than people give it credit for it because you're 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:47.640 you're playing the same lengths of holes overall, but you're 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:49.359 not playing the same length the hole end of the 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:50.000 same green. 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:53.840 And the strategy still works so well with going to 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.960 the road hole green because if you play towards the 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:00.840 outer bounds left, you can get it the Georgian pins 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:02.440 without that nasty bunker right. 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:05.000 A lot of times the strategy the strategy may not 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.600 be exactly the opposite. It depends, you know, Like if 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:12.919 you if you just had a straightaway hole with a 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:16.760 hazard sticking in from one side on one hole, both holes, 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:18.960 you'd be playing towards the boundary to get the best 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:21.480 angle at it. But you know one of those holes 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:23.040 you're playing down the right side and the other hole 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:24.680 you're playing down the left side to get there. 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:32.600 Jose wanted to ask should there be more reversible courses? 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:38.840 Should there be more? Well, I've been asked a handful 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:42.760 of times since would we ever do it again? And 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:47.399 my flipping answer is yeah, but only after like a 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:51.080 few other people try to do it and I feel 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:53.399 like they did better than me, and I should go 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:56.040 try to do it again. And you know, I definitely 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.480 learned things from it where I thought. We're a lot 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:01.639 the same as like when I work on a flat 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.160 piece of ground, When I get all done, I think 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:08.359 I could have done this better. I just understand better 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:10.840 what I don't like about this way. So if I 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:14.280 did it again, I do I could do something better. 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:17.440 But you know, like I said at the beginning, it's 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:21.480 like not nearly every site lends itself to this. I mean, 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:24.800 it's just funny. You know Lou Thompson who got into 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:28.679 this by buying up a distressed golf course. You know, 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:30.840 like almost after we were done with the golf course, 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:34.159 he he called me and said, I'm looking at this 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:36.320 other distress course. Could you see if it works for 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:39.360 a reversible course? And it was something in Las Vegas, 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:41.919 So I like got it up on Google Earth and 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:47.240 I'm looking at it. I'm like, Lou, like the eighteenth 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:50.719 you'd be playing backwards down the eighteenth hole into a 0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:53.800 narrow spot and then have to hit it across a 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:57.879 road to the seventeenth gree you know, because it was 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:01.520 a development golf course. Was like, there's absolutely no way 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.960 in the world you could reverse that. He was like, oh, okay, 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:09.800 but there's a ton of pieces of land that would 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:11.040 won't work for it. 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:15.879 With for students. Being like a resort, a lot of 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:18.399 people will play at one time. Like I've had the 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:20.399 good fortune to play in it a couple of times. 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:23.359 It seems like you get better. It gets better and 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:26.800 better every time you play and the last time I 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:29.200 played it, coming off, I was like, man, this would 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:34.960 be really cool as a private club course where your 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:38.000 member play, where you have essentially a different course each day, 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:41.879 or a muni where you get to play that you 0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:45.760 have regular repeat play all the time. Would that environment 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:49.080 be one that you would consider doing a reversible course 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:50.000 for sure? 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:54.000 I mean, you know, it had appeal to lou Thompson 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:58.040 as a resort because he added two courses for the 0:24:58.080 --> 0:25:00.000 price of one. He went from one course to three. 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:04.359 I mean, Mike Kaiser says one plus one equals three 0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:06.480 in terms of the amount of revenue that you do 0:25:06.960 --> 0:25:09.200 and how many people want to come. There's just more 0:25:09.240 --> 0:25:13.320 critical mass to having two courses, and people don't think, oh, 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:15.399 I might fly all the way across the country and 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:17.400 there's only one course and if I don't like it, 0:25:17.520 --> 0:25:20.399 it's over hyped. I'm out of luck. And you know, 0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:22.679 if you have two or three or four courses, the 0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:25.879 odds of you not liking any of them get a 0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:28.760 lot less. You're not taking as big a risk. So 0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:32.520 you know, for los deal, you know it's not just 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:34.720 that course and backwards, but he's also got the other 0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:36.560 one next door that you could play if you don't 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:39.840 really like mine, So it's kind of a good deal. 0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:43.000 You're right that. I mean, it's certainly an acquired taste, 0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:45.359 and it's certainly I mean the first time people play it, 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:49.040 and the first time they play it backwards, they're confused. 0:25:49.600 --> 0:25:53.840 They don't really the coolest reaction I've had to it, 0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:56.320 I've had it from a lot of people. I didn't 0:25:56.320 --> 0:25:59.560 really expect it is. It's so different. I didn't even 0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:01.480 realize it is the same piece of ground, you know, 0:26:01.880 --> 0:26:04.800 he said, I knew, But once you get out there, 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:07.879 you're like, how did how did this hole work the 0:26:07.880 --> 0:26:11.000 other way around? I can't really piece it together. You know. 0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:13.400 It's because it's it's the next day, and it's hard 0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:16.800 to remember what you played the day before. Exactly when 0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:19.760 we were building it, before it opened, I would take 0:26:19.800 --> 0:26:21.639 people out and play two or three holes and then 0:26:21.680 --> 0:26:24.520 turn right around and play the same holes backwards, so 0:26:24.600 --> 0:26:27.440 they had just played it and then they could kind 0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:30.920 of get it. But the way it's presented now, it's 0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:33.520 not as easy to piece together in your brain, how 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:38.320 this hole is flipped over for tomorrow or how it 0:26:38.440 --> 0:26:42.800 was yesterday. You know, to me, that's That's the cool 0:26:42.840 --> 0:26:45.840 thing about it is you know the people who you know, 0:26:45.920 --> 0:26:47.960 some people will just go right over there. Some people 0:26:48.000 --> 0:26:51.840 don't care it's two different golf courses. They don't. You know, 0:26:51.880 --> 0:26:54.480 they're not that interested in architecture, so they don't. So 0:26:54.520 --> 0:26:57.000 they're just judging the Red Course for the Red Course, 0:26:57.320 --> 0:26:59.240 the Black Horse for the Black Corse. They either like 0:26:59.320 --> 0:27:02.639 it or they don't. They love it or they you know, 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:05.520 it's more polarizing. They either love it or they move on. 0:27:07.720 --> 0:27:13.919 But the people that like it get really interested in it, 0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:17.080 and they're going to come back a bunch. And you know, 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:21.399 that's what everybody in the golf business really needs is 0:27:21.480 --> 0:27:25.600 repeat business. So having a golf course, it's like, this 0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:28.600 is cool, and I still can't quite figure it out yet. 0:27:28.760 --> 0:27:33.040 You know, that's the enduring power of Saint Andrew's and 0:27:33.040 --> 0:27:35.480 and there's no reason that can't work at the resort 0:27:35.560 --> 0:27:39.080 course level. You just have to understand that a certain 0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:41.320 amount of people aren't going to care for it and 0:27:41.400 --> 0:27:43.919 move on. But that's true for every new course. You know, 0:27:43.960 --> 0:27:47.439 I could build whatever, a certain percentage of people are 0:27:47.440 --> 0:27:50.200 gonna be like, that's not my thing. I'm never going 0:27:50.280 --> 0:27:53.600 back there. You know, you just hope you catch on 0:27:53.720 --> 0:27:56.840 with enough people that it works. And the one thing 0:27:56.880 --> 0:27:59.080 I hadn't thought about. You know, one of the people 0:27:59.080 --> 0:28:02.760 that came to the Renaissance Cup is my friend Michael Yamaki, 0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:07.520 who's the manager of Riviera, very sharp business guy. We 0:28:07.560 --> 0:28:10.359 were sitting at dinner after he played it the second 0:28:10.400 --> 0:28:13.040 way around and he was like, you realize what you've done. 0:28:13.359 --> 0:28:16.720 I said, I don't know what you're talking about. He said, 0:28:18.359 --> 0:28:20.639 you only have to find half as many people that 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:23.800 are interested in this course because they'll all play. You know, 0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:25.439 if they're interested, they're all going to play it the 0:28:25.440 --> 0:28:30.080 second way around. So ten thousand interested people equals twenty 0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:33.720 thousand rounds of golf. Yeah. I'm like, oh, I've never 0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:35.920 really thought about it that way. 0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:40.880 I think that's one of the cool things about being 0:28:41.040 --> 0:28:44.600 part of this conversation is that there are things when 0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:47.840 you have an idea that you've had in your hip 0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:49.680 pocket or the back of your mind for a really 0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:52.200 long time, and you think about it and refine it 0:28:52.280 --> 0:28:55.680 and push it a little and redefine what you think 0:28:55.760 --> 0:28:57.680 will work and won't work, and you have a lot 0:28:57.720 --> 0:29:01.920 of preconceived notions that you know Tom's ironed out that 0:29:02.440 --> 0:29:06.640 were good starting points. But then it also those things 0:29:06.760 --> 0:29:10.840 bred all kinds of things that you didn't really have 0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:14.360 answers to or questions you didn't really even think about. 0:29:14.440 --> 0:29:17.760 And I think for Tom and the rest of us 0:29:17.800 --> 0:29:19.320 that got to be a part of it. It was 0:29:19.360 --> 0:29:23.280 cool because there were so many things that were not 0:29:23.480 --> 0:29:29.480 conventional in this routing puzzle that we've had this discussion 0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:32.960 about because they're just so exclusive to this situation. They're 0:29:33.040 --> 0:29:36.880 just so different. They're not just parallel there by a 0:29:37.000 --> 0:29:41.360 track or two. They're going literally and figuratively one hundred 0:29:41.360 --> 0:29:44.400 and eighty degrees the other way. And I remember little 0:29:45.000 --> 0:29:50.480 little dialogues with Tom and with Brian Slanik, who ran 0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:53.160 the job, and Brian and Eric as they were getting 0:29:53.200 --> 0:29:57.080 this stuff built, and one of the things myself, you know, 0:29:57.320 --> 0:29:59.719 you have these preconceived notions, well, the Greens are going 0:29:59.760 --> 0:30:01.800 to have to be big. You got to have big 0:30:01.840 --> 0:30:04.600 putting surfaces right in order to be able to play 0:30:04.640 --> 0:30:06.800 it from both directions and for it to be different. 0:30:07.920 --> 0:30:10.920 And that you know, Tom should certainly chime in, but 0:30:10.960 --> 0:30:16.480 I remember that Tom's saying, no, they don't have to 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:20.240 be big, they can actually be smaller. And that was 0:30:20.640 --> 0:30:23.840 by virtue of you know, the approaches and the short 0:30:23.920 --> 0:30:27.480 grass and the soil structure and how the ball behaved 0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:30.880 around the greens as long as you had a playing 0:30:30.960 --> 0:30:35.360 surface that behaved like a putting surface in plenty of 0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:38.480 area in around, you know, on the green quote unquote 0:30:38.560 --> 0:30:42.840 green proper and also the approaches and the you know, 0:30:42.880 --> 0:30:45.760 when you short side yourself all of that kind of thing. 0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:50.240 You don't really have to have a big green, You 0:30:50.360 --> 0:30:55.400 just need a lot of green like area. And so 0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:59.920 you know, you end up not really decorating a green 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:02.440 in sight with bunkers. You know, what you end up 0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:06.000 doing is really focusing on contour and contour and short grass, 0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:08.720 which we talked about all the time. That's one of 0:31:08.800 --> 0:31:12.280 the coolest hazards in golf. It isn't a ravine or 0:31:12.320 --> 0:31:18.560 a bunker or a pond or a quarry. It's the 0:31:18.600 --> 0:31:22.920 greatest hazard in golf is really interesting contour and really 0:31:23.000 --> 0:31:27.480 tight firm turf. And that was I think that was fun. 0:31:27.760 --> 0:31:29.840 I know it had to be fun for Tom because 0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:32.880 that is such a departure from what you normally would 0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:36.640 would do. And and you know that's just one example, 0:31:36.680 --> 0:31:40.680 but I you know, how you wayfind around this. This 0:31:40.800 --> 0:31:43.200 golf course too was a real challenge, you know, and 0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:47.640 how the golf course is set up is really important, 0:31:48.880 --> 0:31:52.520 and you know, there was a vertical learning curve almost 0:31:52.600 --> 0:31:56.000 for you know, Lou and his staff to make sure 0:31:56.040 --> 0:31:58.360 that the team markers where they were supposed to be. 0:31:59.000 --> 0:32:00.680 You know, so there were a lot of there are 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:04.040 a lot of residual challenges that you really had to 0:32:04.960 --> 0:32:07.440 spend some brain cells on in order to figure out 0:32:07.480 --> 0:32:09.520 to make sure that it worked, so that it wasn't 0:32:09.600 --> 0:32:17.320 perceived as this you know, experimental, you know, kooky idea, 0:32:17.480 --> 0:32:20.760 but that it was really legitimate and it really presented 0:32:20.880 --> 0:32:26.320 really interesting golf and fun golf and playable golf, and 0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:31.120 it wasn't just odd. It was actually really really really 0:32:31.240 --> 0:32:34.800 very interesting. And you know, that's just one. But other 0:32:34.920 --> 0:32:40.960 notions were the idea that you know, like Tom had 0:32:40.960 --> 0:32:45.280 alluded to, when you're in a conventional golf course, all 0:32:45.320 --> 0:32:48.640 that leftover ground where the ball, the lion's share of 0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:51.600 the time is in the air, off the tee and 0:32:51.640 --> 0:32:54.840 then coming to you know, one hundred yards pick your distance, 0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:57.280 one hundred yards, one hundred and twenty five fifty yards. 0:32:57.400 --> 0:32:59.040 You don't really need to do a whole lot to 0:32:59.080 --> 0:33:01.680 that stuff. You don't need to irrigate it. You know, 0:33:01.760 --> 0:33:03.960 you can leave it natural because it's sort of out 0:33:04.040 --> 0:33:06.400 of play. But when you flip a golf hole around 0:33:06.480 --> 0:33:11.080 come in the other direction, that stuff that got relatively 0:33:11.160 --> 0:33:15.680 no attention was now getting a tremendous amount of attention 0:33:15.840 --> 0:33:18.360 because it was in the approach coming the other way. 0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:21.080 So you know, we really had to work hard. It's 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:24.000 fun to listen to Tom talk about this because the 0:33:24.080 --> 0:33:27.000 things that he pointed out in this case really are 0:33:27.320 --> 0:33:31.080 are far reaching into the other parts about you know, 0:33:31.160 --> 0:33:34.960 the twenty seven hole course or the extra whole course 0:33:35.000 --> 0:33:39.040 and people, you know, how they process it in their 0:33:39.120 --> 0:33:42.800 mind and which courses which and all of that. So 0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:47.280 there were and how to manage cart traffic is a 0:33:47.400 --> 0:33:49.440 huge one. It always is on a golf course that 0:33:49.520 --> 0:33:52.760 plays in one direction, but now when you're taking that 0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:57.560 golfer traffic, especially when they're behind the wheel, and managing 0:33:57.680 --> 0:34:00.480 where all that baggage goes in a normal around to 0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:02.920 golf with people playing golf in a cart, which we 0:34:03.000 --> 0:34:06.080 don't subscribe to, but you have to, you have to 0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:08.040 integrate it at some point. That was tough. 0:34:08.080 --> 0:34:10.600 Too, and we thought through all that, and then the 0:34:10.640 --> 0:34:13.080 client said, oh, he went to Bandon Dunes for the 0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:15.719 first time, and he said, what if we made it 0:34:15.760 --> 0:34:21.000 walking only first. He said, I had never walked eighteen 0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:24.719 holes in my life until Pacific. Dudes. He's from Arkansas 0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:27.200 and it's hot and humid, and he just he'd never 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:29.680 walked eighteen holes in his life before he played in Bandon. 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:32.160 And then he comes back and he's like, I think 0:34:32.200 --> 0:34:34.319 we should go with this walking only. And I was like, 0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:37.120 that came completely out of left field to me. I 0:34:37.160 --> 0:34:39.680 was not thinking we would get get away with that. 0:34:39.960 --> 0:34:42.200 Is that one of the best surprises you've ever had 0:34:42.200 --> 0:34:42.880 in your career. 0:34:43.120 --> 0:34:45.480 It was a very good surprise, you know. But at 0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:47.440 the same time, I was a little skeptical of it, 0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:51.680 like I, I'll be shocked if they don't have some 0:34:51.840 --> 0:34:54.960 carts out there next year or the year after, because 0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:58.480 people there's a lot of people that don't do that, 0:34:58.560 --> 0:35:00.800 you know. The first time I went to Forest Dunes, 0:35:01.520 --> 0:35:03.719 as soon as I get there, the first thing, you know, 0:35:03.800 --> 0:35:06.719 somebody's slamming your clubs on a on a cart. Whether 0:35:06.760 --> 0:35:08.640 you ask for it or not, they just assume that's 0:35:08.680 --> 0:35:12.640 what you're gonna do so. I just in Detroit Motor City. 0:35:13.040 --> 0:35:16.480 That's the culture up here, so I figured that was 0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:18.440 going to be a pretty hard cell to try to 0:35:18.480 --> 0:35:21.600 get people to walk. And I think, you know, the 0:35:21.920 --> 0:35:24.640 place is doing well, but it's it's not as busy 0:35:24.680 --> 0:35:27.040 as the other course. And I think that's why as people, 0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:30.640 you know, everybody plays it is interested by it. But 0:35:30.880 --> 0:35:33.600 if they can't ride, there's a certain number of people 0:35:33.680 --> 0:35:35.880 that are just like, ah, I can't do that, you know, 0:35:35.960 --> 0:35:38.800 I just can't do that. And it's an easy walk. 0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:42.919 The Green to Tea is right there, and it's relatively flat, 0:35:43.080 --> 0:35:45.440 so it's about as easy a walk as you could have. 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:49.360 But but it's still there's some people that just aren't 0:35:49.400 --> 0:35:52.600 open to that, and and they're filling up rooms over there, 0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:54.400 so the other you know, so the course that you 0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:55.919 have to walk is not as full. 0:35:56.719 --> 0:36:00.200 I think an interesting part about that line of thinking 0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:03.120 too is I've noticed it, and I think a lot 0:36:03.160 --> 0:36:06.799 of people do that. When you play the loop, it 0:36:06.960 --> 0:36:10.040 is very walkable, and you know they've they've done they've 0:36:10.040 --> 0:36:12.520 made an effort with caddies to make that part of 0:36:12.560 --> 0:36:16.000 the experience and things, and it's pretty refreshing when you 0:36:16.160 --> 0:36:19.120 finish around to golf if you don't play a lot 0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:22.200 to feel like you're you're not golf fatigued. You're not 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:24.640 you know, you're not tired, and that that's a good 0:36:24.640 --> 0:36:28.040 thing because that makes you hopefully want to play a 0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:31.680 little bit more as well. And you know when people 0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:34.040 go to play golf and band and or other places, 0:36:35.280 --> 0:36:37.520 you know, I guess that's part of the the whole 0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:41.640 idea of short courses and things, you know, to play 0:36:42.440 --> 0:36:45.480 operate golf after the big course or after the round. 0:36:45.520 --> 0:36:47.520 I still want to play, but I'm kind of tired. 0:36:48.080 --> 0:36:49.879 Yeah, there's not a lot of people that can play 0:36:50.000 --> 0:36:52.080 thirty six holes a day walking. 0:36:51.880 --> 0:36:54.600 Right, But you could. You could? You could there? You 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:56.960 could there? I mean you you wouldn't you know it 0:36:57.040 --> 0:37:01.400 would be possible. So you know, hopefully that's a byproduct 0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:03.800 of it is that people kind of notice they feel 0:37:04.000 --> 0:37:06.200 a little less golf fatigued afterwards. 0:37:06.560 --> 0:37:09.040 I know they're doing a couple of days next year 0:37:09.120 --> 0:37:11.960 there that you can play thirty six in the same day, 0:37:12.680 --> 0:37:14.959 So they're doing I think like three or four days 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:16.399 where you can play it each way. 0:37:16.920 --> 0:37:18.680 Oh good, So I hadn't seen that you know. I 0:37:19.080 --> 0:37:21.120 mean I suggested that to him and the you know, 0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:24.520 the beginning, I said to him, well, you pretty much 0:37:24.560 --> 0:37:27.200 have to alternate every other day, so so the person 0:37:27.239 --> 0:37:30.239 that's only staying one night can get the chance to 0:37:30.280 --> 0:37:35.200 play both. But I said, you could have, like, you know, 0:37:35.239 --> 0:37:38.040 if if you try to keep it on the numbers 0:37:38.080 --> 0:37:42.160 where the odd days you were playing the black course 0:37:42.239 --> 0:37:44.160 and even days you were playing the Red course or 0:37:44.160 --> 0:37:46.560 whichever one you did. You know, when you got to 0:37:46.600 --> 0:37:48.600 the thirty first of the month and then the first, 0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:50.920 so there's a couple months that you wouldn't have at 0:37:51.360 --> 0:37:53.720 you know, those days you could try to set up okay, 0:37:53.760 --> 0:37:56.800 this is special, we're going to do a shotgun or something. 0:37:56.880 --> 0:37:59.480 So you could play both ways and have a few 0:37:59.560 --> 0:38:01.120 days of a year where you could try to do that. 0:38:01.600 --> 0:38:03.120 But I hope they do. 0:38:03.400 --> 0:38:05.520 That's I think that's exactly what they're doing. 0:38:05.800 --> 0:38:07.759 It maybe one of your next questions, but you know, 0:38:07.960 --> 0:38:12.240 don touched on something. Even after twenty years of thinking 0:38:12.280 --> 0:38:15.240 about the whole concept in my head, there were certain 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:19.320 parts of it, like the fact that the greens didn't 0:38:19.360 --> 0:38:23.040 have to be big, that I really kind of understood 0:38:23.120 --> 0:38:25.440 going in. I thought about that a lot because I 0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:28.560 figured if I figured, if you know a lot of 0:38:28.560 --> 0:38:32.600 people they then seen Tom Simpson's book, They visualized the 0:38:32.640 --> 0:38:34.480 old course at Saint Andrews, and they knew the story 0:38:34.480 --> 0:38:37.120 about how that played backwards. So a ton of people 0:38:37.200 --> 0:38:39.120 just assumed we were going to have these big double 0:38:39.160 --> 0:38:42.279 greens that you could play into from different directions, and 0:38:42.320 --> 0:38:44.120 they were huge double greens. They were going to be 0:38:44.160 --> 0:38:46.680 huge double greens like Saint Andrews. And I was really 0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:49.319 stubborn about that. From day one. I'm like, well, if 0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:52.799 you had to have greens that big, then nobody's going 0:38:52.880 --> 0:38:54.719 to do this concept. If you have to mow five 0:38:54.760 --> 0:38:57.640 acres of greens to make this work, that's a lot 0:38:57.719 --> 0:39:00.920 more expense. Who wants to do that? So from day one, 0:39:00.960 --> 0:39:03.600 I told these guys, whatever else we do, these greens 0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:06.439 can't be any bigger than every other project we do. 0:39:06.800 --> 0:39:09.640 In fact, I'm gonna beyond you to keep these small 0:39:10.160 --> 0:39:14.480 as small as we can get away with. But then 0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:17.000 you know, and it's funny because the first, the first 0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:19.960 question people asked me when we were building, the question 0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:22.279 that I got all the time was how can that 0:39:22.320 --> 0:39:24.919 work without double greens? Isn't somebody getting get hit going 0:39:24.960 --> 0:39:29.399 the other direction, and I'm like everybody, no, you're not 0:39:29.440 --> 0:39:33.799 playing both ways at the same time. You know, the 0:39:33.880 --> 0:39:36.480 holes going out to the end and the holes coming 0:39:36.520 --> 0:39:38.960 back aren't necessary. They don't have to be as close 0:39:39.000 --> 0:39:42.040 together as Saint Andrew's. The greens can be separate. You 0:39:42.120 --> 0:39:45.080 only have to worry about, you know, you only have 0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:47.560 to worry about one direction at a time. So it's 0:39:47.600 --> 0:39:51.279 you know, there's there's no fear for that. But then 0:39:51.320 --> 0:39:55.480 the thing that makes it so different that I didn't realize, 0:39:55.760 --> 0:39:58.960 you know, where I fell into thinking wrong about it 0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:02.120 was even though you know, I thought, I thought, well, 0:40:02.640 --> 0:40:06.400 it's better if we keep going the same direction, like 0:40:06.520 --> 0:40:10.960 Saint Andrews goes where you go. When you're going out, 0:40:11.400 --> 0:40:13.120 you just step off to the right of the green, 0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:16.080 and the next fairy keeps going that way, and it's 0:40:16.120 --> 0:40:18.960 easy to keep the flow if you turn ninety degrees 0:40:19.000 --> 0:40:21.279 all of a sudden, like the old course does at 0:40:21.320 --> 0:40:25.279 the end. Now you've either got a crossover, or you've 0:40:25.320 --> 0:40:28.799 got you know, or you've got an awkward tee that's 0:40:28.880 --> 0:40:31.560 like you're needing to hit over a green or something 0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:34.840 to make the angle work. And so we were better 0:40:34.880 --> 0:40:37.760 off the more we kept playing straight down the line, 0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:39.840 the better it was. And that was one of the 0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:42.960 things when I first saw the piece of land, I thought, oh, well, 0:40:43.440 --> 0:40:46.160 number one, because of the way they built the first 0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:49.400 course and where the clubhouse was, they couldn't really go 0:40:50.000 --> 0:40:53.000 They couldn't have returning nines. It was kind of gonna 0:40:53.080 --> 0:40:56.040 have to be out and back. So that that made 0:40:56.080 --> 0:41:00.839 the concept work, and then you know, it was kind 0:41:00.880 --> 0:41:04.080 of a long out and back. Basically, the course basically 0:41:04.160 --> 0:41:06.960 starts by the back of the clubhouse where the parking 0:41:07.000 --> 0:41:11.000 lot is, and with a couple of jogs, it works 0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:13.759 its way around the property line to almost where the 0:41:13.920 --> 0:41:16.319 entrance gate is, is where the ninth green is, and 0:41:16.440 --> 0:41:20.279 it comes back. And so I thought it was going 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:22.080 to be better if it was like Saint Andrews and 0:41:22.120 --> 0:41:24.520 you just kept going the same direction. And then I 0:41:24.560 --> 0:41:27.799 realized when we tried to do that on paper, that 0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:33.200 wasn't very long, and I said, oh, okay, So to 0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:39.720 get enough length after number six, instead of going around 0:41:39.760 --> 0:41:43.279 the property line, you know, we kind of had to 0:41:43.320 --> 0:41:48.200 go from six back into the interior of the property 0:41:48.239 --> 0:41:54.879 for seven and eight back out toward the boundary again, 0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:57.879 and then nine along the boundary, and those turned out 0:41:57.880 --> 0:42:01.720 to be some of the best holes. Versible part work better. 0:42:02.320 --> 0:42:06.640 You know, when you when you had all the holes 0:42:06.640 --> 0:42:11.520 that are like approaching from one hundred and eighty degrees opposite, 0:42:11.600 --> 0:42:14.480 you keep having the same problem of how do you 0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:18.319 make a green that's receptive from both directions because they're 0:42:18.320 --> 0:42:20.760 dead opt to see each other. Like like if the greens, 0:42:21.040 --> 0:42:24.600 if the green's tilted side to side, that works fine. 0:42:24.800 --> 0:42:29.279 But if the greens like front to back or back 0:42:29.320 --> 0:42:31.439 to front one way, it's front to back the other way. 0:42:31.480 --> 0:42:35.320 And you know, people with where the hole where green 0:42:35.400 --> 0:42:37.560 goes away from you, people have a hard time with that, 0:42:38.440 --> 0:42:40.440 you know. But the other because you don't see it 0:42:40.560 --> 0:42:44.040 very well, you know. So we wound up with several 0:42:44.040 --> 0:42:46.040 greens that are kind of crowned in the middle, so 0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:48.799 you see some of it coming into the front. But 0:42:48.840 --> 0:42:50.400 then if you fly it to the middle of the 0:42:50.400 --> 0:42:53.680 green are past it's like on the downsloping out the back. 0:42:53.719 --> 0:42:57.160 It's amazing how many times on on the loop, especially 0:42:57.160 --> 0:42:59.279 when it was new, you'd see people like hit it 0:42:59.440 --> 0:43:02.480 thirty yards over the green because once they carry to 0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:04.759 the middle of the green, it hits on a downslope 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:07.040 and there's nothing but fairway going out the other way 0:43:07.080 --> 0:43:09.400 for the approach for the next hole. So they just, 0:43:09.800 --> 0:43:12.080 you know, way through the green like more than I'd 0:43:12.120 --> 0:43:15.440 ever seen anywhere. It's not quite as firm as it 0:43:15.520 --> 0:43:18.239 was on opening day, so that's that's softening up a 0:43:18.239 --> 0:43:21.560 little bit, but there's still it's repetitive. You don't want 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:25.040 it to be repetitive. When the holes are when the 0:43:25.080 --> 0:43:27.880 two holes are coming into the green ninety degrees apart 0:43:28.120 --> 0:43:30.760 or something like that, you know, not exactly ninety degrees, 0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:36.239 but something like that. It's amazingly more interesting because you 0:43:36.280 --> 0:43:38.400 could do the simplest thing, like if you just build 0:43:38.600 --> 0:43:43.040 a rectangular green, the one direction it's long and skinny, 0:43:43.719 --> 0:43:47.920 the other direction it's wide and shallow. Yeah, and it 0:43:47.960 --> 0:43:50.279 doesn't look like the same green at all. And not 0:43:50.320 --> 0:43:54.680 only that, but with those two directions, the background looks 0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:58.880 completely different. You're not looking just down the golf course anymore. 0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:01.520 You could be looking at you know, one direction, you'll 0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:03.920 be looking at a wall of trees behind the green, 0:44:04.440 --> 0:44:06.719 which I didn't think we could even do when we 0:44:06.760 --> 0:44:09.200 started routing the golf course. But if the other holes 0:44:09.200 --> 0:44:11.399 come in ninety degrees to that, yeah, you can do that, 0:44:11.680 --> 0:44:13.160 you know. It's just like having a wall of trees 0:44:13.200 --> 0:44:15.320 at the very end of the ninth hole at Saint Andrew's. 0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:17.120 But you can do it anywhere in the middle too. 0:44:18.600 --> 0:44:20.920 So that's what makes the Those are the holes that 0:44:21.000 --> 0:44:24.200 really make it feel completely different when you play it 0:44:24.239 --> 0:44:26.799 when you turn around the next day. And I had 0:44:26.840 --> 0:44:29.839 not figured that out at the start. It wasn't until 0:44:30.360 --> 0:44:32.719 I had to make the routing that way. As soon 0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:35.000 as I had to make the routing that way and 0:44:35.040 --> 0:44:37.000 I put it on we put it on paper, it 0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:39.120 was like, oh, this is going to be better. All 0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:40.400 we have to do is figure out what to do 0:44:40.440 --> 0:44:43.440 with the teas so they don't conflict with you. You know, 0:44:43.880 --> 0:44:47.120 the tea going the one way doesn't conflict with the 0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:49.239 tea going the other way. We basically had to give 0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:54.200 up on using the same tea for both directions, and 0:44:54.280 --> 0:44:56.839 that was a big leap, just giving up on using 0:44:56.880 --> 0:45:00.960 the same tea. Because there's eighty eight the short grass there. 0:45:01.000 --> 0:45:03.080 You could stick to tea markers anywhere out there and 0:45:03.120 --> 0:45:05.440 have a golf hole, and we're used to doing that. 0:45:05.480 --> 0:45:08.280 We're more and more in the last ten or twelve years, 0:45:08.480 --> 0:45:13.439 we've built like we most short grass like off the green, 0:45:13.520 --> 0:45:15.680 past the green and over to the next tee, so 0:45:15.719 --> 0:45:19.400 you don't leave short grass between green and tea, which 0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:21.600 is you know, I got that idea from Saint Andrews, 0:45:21.640 --> 0:45:23.320 and I got that idea from this map of the 0:45:23.400 --> 0:45:25.319 Valley Club on the wall, because that's the way they 0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:28.640 gang mode the fairway and the gang mode right over 0:45:28.640 --> 0:45:32.359 to the next tea in the old days, you know, 0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:35.200 so that we'd already been doing stuff just like that, 0:45:35.960 --> 0:45:38.680 you know. So we're basically just building fairway on two 0:45:38.760 --> 0:45:42.760 different sides of the greens and building enough little flat 0:45:42.840 --> 0:45:45.480 places in it that you could tee off from either 0:45:45.520 --> 0:45:47.759 side from a. 0:45:50.360 --> 0:45:53.360 He touched on just there with the acreage of fairway. 0:45:53.480 --> 0:45:58.440 Steven Britton asked about the construction and maintenance cost difference 0:45:58.719 --> 0:46:02.200 of having a reverse course versus a regular course. Was 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:03.959 there anything substantial? 0:46:04.680 --> 0:46:09.000 It's all irrigation. Yeah, you're you're, I mean, we've built 0:46:09.040 --> 0:46:11.360 courses where we had seventy five or eighty acres of 0:46:11.440 --> 0:46:14.799 turf before, just because we build it really wide. This one, 0:46:14.960 --> 0:46:18.840 even building it a little narrower, is eighty five acres 0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:24.960 of turf, So you know, you're you're irrigating maybe twenty 0:46:24.960 --> 0:46:29.400 more acres, So that's another couple hundred thousand dollars maybe 0:46:29.400 --> 0:46:32.880 in construction budget, like you don't but you don't have 0:46:32.880 --> 0:46:34.800 to build the greens any bigger, so there's no extra 0:46:34.840 --> 0:46:39.000 cost there, you know, And you're maintaining twenty more acres 0:46:39.040 --> 0:46:45.680 of fairway. So that's you know, again the green well, 0:46:45.719 --> 0:46:49.399 but it's not, but it's not, but it's not. I mean, 0:46:50.800 --> 0:46:53.680 fairway maintenance is only a fraction of the budget, and 0:46:53.719 --> 0:46:56.400 that's it's not the most expensive part. I mean, the 0:46:56.440 --> 0:46:59.040 greens maintenance is the most expensive part. That's why making 0:46:59.080 --> 0:47:01.839 the greens bigger is a bit you know, That's why 0:47:01.840 --> 0:47:03.560 I wanted to stay away from that. I knew the 0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:06.640 fairways would be more acreage to maintain, but at the 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:09.279 end of the day, you know, there's a there's like 0:47:09.560 --> 0:47:14.200 zero mode rough to deal with. You know. Essentially, we're 0:47:14.239 --> 0:47:16.160 taking some areas that we probably would have had to 0:47:16.239 --> 0:47:21.480 grass and take care of as rough and turning them 0:47:21.520 --> 0:47:25.000 into fairway. So it might add ten percent to the 0:47:25.040 --> 0:47:28.719 maintenance budget or fifteen percent, but I know, I mean, 0:47:30.120 --> 0:47:34.080 we're also using fescue, which is not as high a 0:47:34.120 --> 0:47:39.880 cost per acre as bank grass. You know, forest dunes. 0:47:40.280 --> 0:47:42.799 I haven't seen the numbers, but I almost guarantee you 0:47:43.360 --> 0:47:46.200 that they spend less maintaining the Loop than they do 0:47:46.239 --> 0:47:49.160 the wise cof course next door, which is all you know, 0:47:49.320 --> 0:47:52.879 it's not it's not as much fairway acreage, but it's 0:47:53.040 --> 0:47:58.839 bank grass fairways, tightly maintained, super high end maintenance. I'll 0:47:58.840 --> 0:48:02.240 bet they spend more money on that. 0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:05.520 That's one of as being somebody that came from business 0:48:06.040 --> 0:48:08.680 and you know, gotten the golf is one of the 0:48:08.680 --> 0:48:11.640 most fascinating things I find about the Loop is like 0:48:11.680 --> 0:48:15.360 the economics of having two distinct golf courses for just 0:48:15.440 --> 0:48:18.879 about the same price. Hearing that doesn't cost much more 0:48:18.920 --> 0:48:23.720 to build or to maintain it with like urban areas, 0:48:23.760 --> 0:48:26.360 it just seems like something that should be done more often. 0:48:27.120 --> 0:48:30.840 Yeah, yeah, probably more often on a smaller scale, and 0:48:31.000 --> 0:48:35.000 not the full eighteen holes going backwards, but who knows. 0:48:35.239 --> 0:48:38.680 Yeah, nine holes would be cool. You've been listening to 0:48:38.719 --> 0:48:40.200 the fried Egg podcast. 0:48:40.640 --> 0:48:46.200 We do the digging for you.