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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of The Yoke with Doke.

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Speaker 1: Tom and I are again joined by Don Plasik, Renaissance

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Speaker 1: Golf design associate. In this episode, we discussed Tom's revolutionary

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Speaker 1: reversible golf course, The Loop, which is located at the

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Speaker 1: Forest Dunes Resort in Roscommon, Michigan. As always, reminder to

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Speaker 1: check out Renaissancegolf dot com and Tom's books, The Confidential

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Speaker 1: Guides to Golf Courses and The Little Red Book on

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Speaker 1: Golf Course Architecture. They're both fantastic resources to learn more

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Speaker 1: about architecture different courses around the world. Really great resource

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Speaker 1: to help you travel smarter. So, without further ado, here

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Speaker 1: is the latest episode of The Yoke with Dok.

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Speaker 2: Tom.

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Speaker 3: Dolk is back and as usual, he's not holding back.

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Speaker 3: But don't toss the Yulk and the famously candid Oak

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Speaker 3: doesn't pull any punches.

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Speaker 2: How do I make natural looking contour hire the biggest

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Speaker 2: pool in the village?

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Speaker 4: I told him to make it flat, burst, overrated, underrated, rough,

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Speaker 4: terribly overrated. Over the years, how long had you wanted

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Speaker 4: to build a reversible golf course?

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Speaker 2: More than twenty years? I mean, I didn't really honestly

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Speaker 2: think that we'd ever do it on a full eighteen

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Speaker 2: whole project. I thought maybe a nine hole project or something,

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Speaker 2: or even smaller. I mean, the idea comes from the

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Speaker 2: first place I saw it was Tom Simpson's book about

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Speaker 2: golf course architecture, which is written in the late twenties.

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Speaker 2: He had a little appendix in back. Now Simpson built,

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Speaker 2: you know, he didn't build a lot of courses. He built.

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Speaker 2: He built several like private estate courses for the Rothschilds

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Speaker 2: and like the richest families in Europe and Britain. And

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Speaker 2: most of them were not eighteen hole golf courses. Some

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Speaker 2: of them were nine holes, some of them were six holes,

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Speaker 2: some of them were just three holes. And you know,

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Speaker 2: having three holes in your backyard would be kind of cool,

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Speaker 2: and it'd be very you know, it's a lot better

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Speaker 2: than trying to keep maintaining eighteen holes in your backyard.

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Speaker 2: But by the same token, would get pretty boring after

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Speaker 2: a while to just play the same three holes over

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Speaker 2: and over again. So instead of just you know, putting

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Speaker 2: in different tees and having multiple teas, or even putting

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Speaker 2: in alternate greens, he tried to design one that you

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Speaker 2: could play forwards and backwards, in the holes would be

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Speaker 2: really different. And he put this little illustration in the

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Speaker 2: back of his book of how that worked, like a

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Speaker 2: triangle of holes and how how the you know, the

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Speaker 2: fairways would like stop and start again, and so you

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Speaker 2: were hop into completely different places when you came back

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Speaker 2: the other direction, and it was really neat. It just

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Speaker 2: looked fascinating. And you know, I don't know that if

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Speaker 2: that was the actual plan for one of the estate

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Speaker 2: courses that he built, or it was just a doodle

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Speaker 2: that he did of you know, here's how you could

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Speaker 2: do it. But I you know, I saw that when

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Speaker 2: I was like twenty years old and thought I'd be

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Speaker 2: cool to do someday something like that. So it kind

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Speaker 2: of always been in the back of my mind of

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Speaker 2: that would be cool to do someday. But you know,

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Speaker 2: where would that even where where would that make any

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Speaker 2: sense at all? You know, who would want that? And

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Speaker 2: what kind of land would that work on? Clearly there's

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Speaker 2: some kinds of you know, the more dramatic the land is,

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Speaker 2: the harder it is to do that, and the less

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Speaker 2: you'd want to do it, you know, when you're you know,

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Speaker 2: part of golf course architecture is like trying to lay

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Speaker 2: out holes. So you're you're walking through the property a

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Speaker 2: certain way and you're looking at the best views. So

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Speaker 2: to say, okay, now I'm going to flip that all

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Speaker 2: on its head and do it exactly backwards from the

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Speaker 2: way I set it up for everybody. That doesn't make

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Speaker 2: a lot of sense on its face. So it would

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Speaker 2: only really, it only really makes sense on a property

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Speaker 2: that's kind of dull. You know, you don't have a

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Speaker 2: lot of great views. You don't have like big up

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Speaker 2: and down features. You know. The more the more if

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Speaker 2: you had sand dunes in the way, or you're playing

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Speaker 2: up and over hills, you would inevitably have some blind shots.

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Speaker 2: You know, like you could play up and over go

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Speaker 2: in one direction and have have you just getting to

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Speaker 2: the landing area when you got to the top of

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Speaker 2: the hill. But unless the whole was exactly twice that long,

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Speaker 2: when you're coming back the other way, the hill would

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Speaker 2: be one hundred yards in front of the tee and

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Speaker 2: you could and see anything over the top of it,

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Speaker 2: and nobody would think that was very good. So I

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Speaker 2: kind of decided, well, the only piece of land that

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Speaker 2: would make sense on would have to be pretty flat,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 3: And.

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Speaker 2: One other time we actually had a client we thought

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Speaker 2: he might go for this. That's the only reason all

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Speaker 2: the guys in my office knew about it was when

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Speaker 2: we when we were brainstorming the Rawles course at Texas Tech,

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Speaker 2: which was a dead flat piece of land. One of

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Speaker 2: the concepts we came up. One of the concepts we

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Speaker 2: tried out was doing a reversible golf course. You know,

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Speaker 2: the client was an engineer. That Jerry Rawls, the guy

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Speaker 2: who funded the golf course, was an engineer. He was

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Speaker 2: like a electrical engineer. He was a chip maker in

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Speaker 2: Silicon Valley. That's where he got the money to give

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Speaker 2: the Texas Tech to build a golf course. And I thought,

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Speaker 2: I don't know him that well, but this might appeal

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Speaker 2: to him. He's got that kind of brain. I think

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Speaker 2: that's why it appealed to me. But he was not

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Speaker 2: interested in it. Mostly, you know, I warned him that

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Speaker 2: if we did it that way, it was going to

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Speaker 2: be hard to make it pretty because you know, it

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Speaker 2: was hard to make the backgrounds work two different directions,

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Speaker 2: so it would be hard to landscape it and make

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Speaker 2: it really look pretty. And it, you know, that site

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Speaker 2: was not very pretty. To start with, so he was

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Speaker 2: concerned that it just wouldn't look good enough, so we

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Speaker 2: tabled it and built the golf course that we did.

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Speaker 2: I didn't think much about it again for a while,

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Speaker 2: other than everybody around me had seen that concept and

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Speaker 2: they were like, well, that'd be really cool to do

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Speaker 2: that someday. And then you know, I kind of stumble

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Speaker 2: into going to interview for this job to do a

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Speaker 2: new course at Forrest Dudentes. It was actually I was

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Speaker 2: They put me in the Michigan Golf Hall of Fame,

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Speaker 2: and I went down for the like induction ceremony and

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Speaker 2: it had give a little speech. I was talking about how,

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Speaker 2: you know, at the beginning of my career, I didn't

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Speaker 2: want to be labeled a Michigan architect, and I wanted

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Speaker 2: to get out and do things in other places so

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't get type cast as just working around here.

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Speaker 2: But you know, now that I'd been traveling all over

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Speaker 2: the world the last twenty years, I'd really love to

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Speaker 2: do a couple more projects close to home. And a

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Speaker 2: bunch of friends that I've known for twenty five years

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Speaker 2: were in the audience, and two of them went from

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Speaker 2: there up to some event at Forest Dunes, and the

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Speaker 2: managers started talking about how, oh they're looking at do

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Speaker 2: another golf course. And these guys are like, you've got

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Speaker 2: to talk to Tom. You know, they talked to a

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Speaker 2: couple other architects already. For whatever reason, they weren't thinking

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Speaker 2: a call in me. I think they thought I'd be

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Speaker 2: too high priced or something. And these guys were like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: we just you know, we just came from We just

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Speaker 2: saw him. He was just talking about how he'd like

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Speaker 2: to do another course in Michigan. So you've got to

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Speaker 2: talk to him. So I went over there to look

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Speaker 2: at the ground and it was almost exactly the kind

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Speaker 2: of ground I thought would work good for this concept.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was relatively flat. There were some little

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Speaker 2: like valleys through it in places, but nothing's sticking up

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Speaker 2: real big. It was all sandy, which helps because you

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Speaker 2: don't have to worry about you know, you don't have

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Speaker 2: to create the area outside the fair way. You can

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Speaker 2: let it go and it's still playable, so you don't

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Speaker 2: have to build it super wide in both directions. Necessarily.

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Speaker 2: There were some trees, but they weren't like you know,

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Speaker 2: there weren't like a bunch of huge, beautiful oak trees

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Speaker 2: that were going to get in the way come in

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Speaker 2: one way or the other. So I'm just and I'm

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Speaker 2: just looking at and there weren't views off the property

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Speaker 2: very much. I'm just walking around thinking, this kind of

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Speaker 2: looks like that kind of property. So then I sat

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Speaker 2: down with the owner, Lou Thompson, who had bought Forest

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Speaker 2: Students out of bankruptcy, basically bought it for bought the

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Speaker 2: whole place for not much money, and you know, so,

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Speaker 2: but he hadn't developed it. This was the first time

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Speaker 2: he was going to develop a golf course. He just

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Speaker 2: stumbled into owning this golf course that had a bunch

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Speaker 2: of extra acreage and it looked like it made sense

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Speaker 2: to build another course. So he hadn't He didn't know

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Speaker 2: anything about the process really, So he's interviewing architects and

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Speaker 2: he's like, you know, so he's not from the golf business,

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Speaker 2: and he's not you know, he's not your typical client.

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Speaker 2: He's not answering questions the same way most do. You know,

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Speaker 2: most clients, when I ask him what they want, they

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Speaker 2: tell me all the things that are on Golf Digest

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Speaker 2: list of what makes a great golf course. Lou didn't

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Speaker 2: know to do that. You know, I asked him what

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Speaker 2: he wanted and he said two things. He said, the

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Speaker 2: reason I'm doing this is to get people to stay

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Speaker 2: here and play again the next day. You know, I

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Speaker 2: have the one golf course, but it's kind of on

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Speaker 2: the way from Detroit to Gaylord where all the other

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Speaker 2: golf courses are. So people just stop through here and

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Speaker 2: play and then they leave. They don't even stay and

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Speaker 2: have a drink, they don't stay for dinner. So this

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Speaker 2: place just loses crazy money in the clubhouse because nobody

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Speaker 2: sticks around. So I want, you know, I want people

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Speaker 2: to stay here. We'll build some more lodging and that's

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Speaker 2: the goal, is to get people to just stay here

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Speaker 2: instead of going up to Gailor. And he said, and

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Speaker 2: I want something that's going to wow people. And I'm

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Speaker 2: looking at like, well, it's not gonna wow people with

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Speaker 2: this site. You know, the site's not that spectacular. But

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Speaker 2: this concept that I've had for years in the back

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Speaker 2: of my head, if I could pull that off, that

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Speaker 2: would that would wow people. And this guy is just

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Speaker 2: far enough removed from the golf business you might actually

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Speaker 2: get that and go with it. So I didn't tell

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Speaker 2: him right away, came back to the office. We started

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Speaker 2: trying to rout a golf course kind of in the

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Speaker 2: normal way. But you know, while I'm while we're doing it,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking, well, you know this is going to work

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Speaker 2: backwards too, how can we make it work backwards? So

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Speaker 2: you can't, really, you don't. You can't route it both

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Speaker 2: ways at the same time. You got to kind of

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Speaker 2: work on a routing for one way, but then think through, Okay,

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Speaker 2: that's not going to work backwards. I'll have to change

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Speaker 2: this or that in order to make it work. So

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Speaker 2: Don and I played around with that, and then I

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Speaker 2: went back over there to you know, formally interview and

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Speaker 2: show him my idea, and I just we had the

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Speaker 2: maps rolled up and I unrolled him and I and

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Speaker 2: I was showing him the one way around, just talking

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Speaker 2: about it. I got all done, and he goes, well,

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Speaker 2: that looks good, but you know, you said you're going

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Speaker 2: to do something really different, and I don't see what's

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Speaker 2: really different about that. And I pulled the one map

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Speaker 2: off and had the other map underneath showing how you

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Speaker 2: played it backwards, and said, well, it's also designed to

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Speaker 2: be played backwards. The next day, and everybody in the

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Speaker 2: room sat there kind of half stunned for about two minutes. Well,

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Speaker 2: they were trying to understand what that meant. And as

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Speaker 2: soon as they understood what it meant, they were like,

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Speaker 2: this is what we wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: I imagine that with Thompson. He made his money in trucking.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: So he's a very utilitarian I mean, like I worked

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Speaker 1: in trucking industry a little, no fact, but the you know,

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Speaker 1: the big thing is always getting take a load somewhere,

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Speaker 1: getting a load back.

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Speaker 2: You know that's true. I didn't even think about it,

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Speaker 2: you know it. He probably understood that much better because

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Speaker 2: that is his business exactly. You know he does his

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Speaker 2: trucking business is all almost entirely doing stuff for butterball turkey. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But he does everything from like haul in the turkeys

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Speaker 2: to slaughter and then haul in the turkeys to market,

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Speaker 2: but also haul in the feed. So he hauls the

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Speaker 2: feed to the turkeys, he hauls the turkeys to the

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Speaker 2: processing plant, he hauls the turkeys from the processing plant

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Speaker 2: to stores, and he just keeps making loops back and forth,

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Speaker 2: so the truck's always full.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so it's the same idea as connecting a

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Speaker 1: route and being able to go back around the route.

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Speaker 2: I never thought of that I've got. I'm curious to

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Speaker 2: ask him if he thought about it that way, because

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Speaker 2: he never said it that way directly, But it would

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Speaker 2: make the internal logic would work perfect for lou and

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Speaker 2: he's he's a very practical guy.

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Speaker 1: So to make the course reversible. Ian McGregor wants to

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Speaker 1: know what concessions it came with it.

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Speaker 2: It's funny because that's every question anybody that I ever

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Speaker 2: talked to about this concept. They always make the assumption

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Speaker 2: that you're giving things up, that oh, it would have

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Speaker 2: been better if you know. I mean we call one

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Speaker 2: way the Black Horse and the other way the Red Course.

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Speaker 2: So you say the first three holes in the black

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Speaker 2: course were better in that direction, but then the fourth

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Speaker 2: hole you would have rather played the other way around?

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Speaker 2: Could you know? Couldn't you have figured it out that

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Speaker 2: you know, there's there's always a bet, you know, which

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Speaker 2: is better the first hole on the black course or

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Speaker 2: the eighteenth hole on the Red course that comes back

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Speaker 2: the other way. Why wouldn't you choose the best out

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Speaker 2: of every one of those and put them together a

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Speaker 2: because those don't fit together. You know, it's not that simple.

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Speaker 2: You have to have a routing that connects a bunch

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Speaker 2: of things. So so it's not like if you know,

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Speaker 2: if you made me, if you made me, what are

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Speaker 2: the what are the five best holes there now? Or

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Speaker 2: ten best holes there now? For sure some of them

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Speaker 2: would be the same fairway playing in both directions, or

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Speaker 2: the same green played from two different angles. So you

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Speaker 2: can't really get that's way if you work on routings enough.

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Speaker 2: There are always concessions in routing a golf course. I

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Speaker 2: don't think we really made a lot more concessions to

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Speaker 2: get it to be reversible, not as many as everybody thinks.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's just there's better parts of the land

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Speaker 2: and there's parts that aren't quite as cool, but you

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Speaker 2: have to use them both. So I don't think that

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Speaker 2: we gave up that much to do it. And I

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Speaker 2: was and I was perfectly willing to make those trade

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Speaker 2: offs in order to do whatever trade offs I was making.

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Speaker 2: It's like, if I can make this work in both

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Speaker 2: directions and people think it's cool in both directions, that's great,

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Speaker 2: then the other the other more our practical question is,

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Speaker 2: you know, how much do you have to manipulate it

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Speaker 2: so one way around isn't a lot better than the

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Speaker 2: other way around, because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: if one way around is much better than the other

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Speaker 2: way around, the demand will be way higher for that

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Speaker 2: and they'll abandon playing at reversible. You know the old

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Speaker 2: course of Saint Andrew's is that Originally at the old

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Speaker 2: course you were playing out to one flag on a

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Speaker 2: green and back to the same flag on the same green.

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Speaker 2: And then it got a little too busy for that,

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Speaker 2: so they widened out the greens and they made the

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Speaker 2: double greens. But when they did that, they didn't have

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Speaker 2: a clear which was the way to go. Do you

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Speaker 2: start up number one or do you start back down

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Speaker 2: number eighteen? And they did both for several years. I

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Speaker 2: don't know how they decided when to alternate them, but

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Speaker 2: they did both for several years. And supposedly at least

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Speaker 2: one of the opens played in Saint Andrew's in the

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Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds was played backwards from the present golf course.

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Speaker 2: So I knew that history. That wasn't where I got

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Speaker 2: the idea, but I knew the history, and I understood, now,

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Speaker 2: why isn't the old course that way? Anymore because everybody

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Speaker 2: wants to play the road hole, and everybody wants to

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Speaker 2: play eleven that way. All the famous the three or

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Speaker 2: four famous holes that everybody's got like in their mind,

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Speaker 2: I'm going there to see this. They're all based on

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Speaker 2: going down the right side off at number one and

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Speaker 2: coming back up the right side, going coming back up

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Speaker 2: seventeen and eighteen. So there's you know, they do, or

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Speaker 2: they did for a little while, introduced playing the golf

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Speaker 2: course backwards for a couple of days a year in

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Speaker 2: the spring. They pretty much gave that up. Well, they

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Speaker 2: gave it up a long time ago because nobody wanted

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Speaker 2: to play it that way anymore. You know, once everybody

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Speaker 2: got familiar with the road hole and the other famous holes,

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Speaker 2: that was the kiss of death for the other way around.

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Speaker 1: And so much of that has to What also hindered

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Speaker 1: that is the television and the championship history. Sure it's

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Speaker 1: nobody's going to the old course and dropping down what

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Speaker 1: is it, five hundred pounds or whatever it is and

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Speaker 1: and getting to play that the other way around. That's

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Speaker 1: not as famous. I mean, I bet there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of golf nerds that would play to go play it

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Speaker 1: that way.

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Speaker 2: Don and I. Don and I and Eric did it

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Speaker 2: when they were doing it ten fifteen years ago. They

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Speaker 2: started on an April Fool's Day one year. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's not a busy time in Saint Andrew's. They said, oh,

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Speaker 2: April first, everybody plays backwards. We'll see if anybody wants

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Speaker 2: to come for this, And people did so, like they

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Speaker 2: did two or three days a year where you would

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Speaker 2: like buy, you know, you bought a package where you

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Speaker 2: played that way and then you played the other way

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Speaker 2: around a day or two later. And and it happened

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Speaker 2: to be while we were working on the Renaissance Club.

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Speaker 2: So Don and I and Eric did that because after

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Speaker 2: we talked about it it for Texas Tech, and I

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Speaker 2: was always curious about it. I didn't think it would

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Speaker 2: work that well. And you know, I know the old

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Speaker 2: course really well. So I think Donald vouched that there

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Speaker 2: were a couple holes. It was really almost impossible figure

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Speaker 2: out what to do if I didn't know what was

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Speaker 2: in the fairway coming the other way, because you do.

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Speaker 2: There are really holes that you know, they'd abandon playing

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Speaker 2: that way for so long that they'd stop mowing some

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Speaker 2: patches that were important, like they stopped mowing the off

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Speaker 2: the back of the green that you needed to bounce

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Speaker 2: it on, or you know, they don't. You know, you're

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Speaker 2: hitting over bushes off the tee now, but they're in

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Speaker 2: the approach if you're playing it backwards. So it was

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Speaker 2: kind of awkward.

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Speaker 1: The old courses A ten in the confidential guys, what

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Speaker 1: would be the reversed old course.

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Speaker 2: Five, five or six. I mean, you still got the

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Speaker 2: cool greens complexes, and you can kind of wind up

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Speaker 2: in the same place. But you know, it might be

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Speaker 2: a little better than that if they if they would

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Speaker 2: mow it all back and fix some of the things

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Speaker 2: that have grown grown wrong over time. But it's not

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Speaker 2: it's not a great It doesn't have the great holes

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Speaker 2: that you get really attached to. The one hole that

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Speaker 2: your listeners could visualize really easily that's a really good

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Speaker 2: hole is if you're playing at backwards, the very first

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Speaker 2: hole is playing from from you're really playing from one

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Speaker 2: te across, you know, down the left side into eighteen

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Speaker 2: fairway more and then into the back of the road green.

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Speaker 2: So now the roads on the left, the bunkers on

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Speaker 2: the right, you know what's normally the front part of

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Speaker 2: the green is still sticking out behind the green to

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Speaker 2: the right. You know, it'd be a great hole, except

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Speaker 2: it's the first hole and it's a brutal.

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Speaker 1: Start four with Oh no, no, no, it's not long four.

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Speaker 2: That's right. One of the odd things about the reversible

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Speaker 2: golf course is the fair way that you're playing backwards

376
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Speaker 2: and the green that you're playing two backwards are not

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Speaker 2: attached to the same hole. You know, like when you

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Speaker 2: play when you play the eighteenth fair way backwards, you're

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Speaker 2: playing to seventeen green, and when you play the first

380
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Speaker 2: hole backwards, you're playing to eighteen green. So the you know,

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Speaker 2: so the green changes one direction. The green's not like,

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Speaker 2: it's not a short part four. Go in both directions.

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Speaker 2: One hole might be a long part four, but the

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Speaker 2: hole coming in the other way might be a part

385
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Speaker 2: three or a short part four or something different. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's actually one of the things that makes it more

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Speaker 2: interesting than people give it credit for it because you're

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Speaker 2: you're playing the same lengths of holes overall, but you're

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Speaker 2: not playing the same length the hole end of the

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Speaker 2: same green.

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Speaker 1: And the strategy still works so well with going to

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Speaker 1: the road hole green because if you play towards the

393
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Speaker 1: outer bounds left, you can get it the Georgian pins

394
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Speaker 1: without that nasty bunker right.

395
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Speaker 2: A lot of times the strategy the strategy may not

396
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Speaker 2: be exactly the opposite. It depends, you know, Like if

397
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 2: you if you just had a straightaway hole with a

398
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 2: hazard sticking in from one side on one hole, both holes,

399
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 2: you'd be playing towards the boundary to get the best

400
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Speaker 2: angle at it. But you know one of those holes

401
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 2: you're playing down the right side and the other hole

402
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 2: you're playing down the left side to get there.

403
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Speaker 1: Jose wanted to ask should there be more reversible courses?

404
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 2: Should there be more? Well, I've been asked a handful

405
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Speaker 2: of times since would we ever do it again? And

406
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Speaker 2: my flipping answer is yeah, but only after like a

407
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Speaker 2: few other people try to do it and I feel

408
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Speaker 2: like they did better than me, and I should go

409
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Speaker 2: try to do it again. And you know, I definitely

410
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Speaker 2: learned things from it where I thought. We're a lot

411
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Speaker 2: the same as like when I work on a flat

412
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Speaker 2: piece of ground, When I get all done, I think

413
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Speaker 2: I could have done this better. I just understand better

414
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Speaker 2: what I don't like about this way. So if I

415
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Speaker 2: did it again, I do I could do something better.

416
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Speaker 2: But you know, like I said at the beginning, it's

417
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Speaker 2: like not nearly every site lends itself to this. I mean,

418
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 2: it's just funny. You know Lou Thompson who got into

419
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 2: this by buying up a distressed golf course. You know,

420
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Speaker 2: like almost after we were done with the golf course,

421
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 2: he he called me and said, I'm looking at this

422
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: other distress course. Could you see if it works for

423
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 2: a reversible course? And it was something in Las Vegas,

424
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 2: So I like got it up on Google Earth and

425
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 2: I'm looking at it. I'm like, Lou, like the eighteenth

426
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Speaker 2: you'd be playing backwards down the eighteenth hole into a

427
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 2: narrow spot and then have to hit it across a

428
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 2: road to the seventeenth gree you know, because it was

429
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 2: a development golf course. Was like, there's absolutely no way

430
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 2: in the world you could reverse that. He was like, oh, okay,

431
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 2: but there's a ton of pieces of land that would

432
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Speaker 2: won't work for it.

433
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Speaker 1: With for students. Being like a resort, a lot of

434
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 1: people will play at one time. Like I've had the

435
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: good fortune to play in it a couple of times.

436
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: It seems like you get better. It gets better and

437
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: better every time you play and the last time I

438
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: played it, coming off, I was like, man, this would

439
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: be really cool as a private club course where your

440
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: member play, where you have essentially a different course each day,

441
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: or a muni where you get to play that you

442
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: have regular repeat play all the time. Would that environment

443
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: be one that you would consider doing a reversible course

444
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: for sure?

445
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it had appeal to lou Thompson

446
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: as a resort because he added two courses for the

447
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: price of one. He went from one course to three.

448
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 2: I mean, Mike Kaiser says one plus one equals three

449
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 2: in terms of the amount of revenue that you do

450
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 2: and how many people want to come. There's just more

451
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: critical mass to having two courses, and people don't think, oh,

452
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: I might fly all the way across the country and

453
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 2: there's only one course and if I don't like it,

454
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: it's over hyped. I'm out of luck. And you know,

455
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 2: if you have two or three or four courses, the

456
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 2: odds of you not liking any of them get a

457
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: lot less. You're not taking as big a risk. So

458
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: you know, for los deal, you know it's not just

459
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: that course and backwards, but he's also got the other

460
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: one next door that you could play if you don't

461
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: really like mine, So it's kind of a good deal.

462
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 2: You're right that. I mean, it's certainly an acquired taste,

463
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 2: and it's certainly I mean the first time people play it,

464
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 2: and the first time they play it backwards, they're confused.

465
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: They don't really the coolest reaction I've had to it,

466
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: I've had it from a lot of people. I didn't

467
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: really expect it is. It's so different. I didn't even

468
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: realize it is the same piece of ground, you know,

469
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: he said, I knew, But once you get out there,

470
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 2: you're like, how did how did this hole work the

471
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 2: other way around? I can't really piece it together. You know.

472
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 2: It's because it's it's the next day, and it's hard

473
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 2: to remember what you played the day before. Exactly when

474
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 2: we were building it, before it opened, I would take

475
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 2: people out and play two or three holes and then

476
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: turn right around and play the same holes backwards, so

477
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 2: they had just played it and then they could kind

478
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 2: of get it. But the way it's presented now, it's

479
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: not as easy to piece together in your brain, how

480
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: this hole is flipped over for tomorrow or how it

481
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: was yesterday. You know, to me, that's That's the cool

482
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: thing about it is you know the people who you know,

483
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: some people will just go right over there. Some people

484
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 2: don't care it's two different golf courses. They don't. You know,

485
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: they're not that interested in architecture, so they don't. So

486
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: they're just judging the Red Course for the Red Course,

487
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: the Black Horse for the Black Corse. They either like

488
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 2: it or they don't. They love it or they you know,

489
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 2: it's more polarizing. They either love it or they move on.

490
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 2: But the people that like it get really interested in it,

491
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: and they're going to come back a bunch. And you know,

492
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 2: that's what everybody in the golf business really needs is

493
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: repeat business. So having a golf course, it's like, this

494
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: is cool, and I still can't quite figure it out yet.

495
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: You know, that's the enduring power of Saint Andrew's and

496
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: and there's no reason that can't work at the resort

497
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: course level. You just have to understand that a certain

498
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 2: amount of people aren't going to care for it and

499
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 2: move on. But that's true for every new course. You know,

500
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 2: I could build whatever, a certain percentage of people are

501
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 2: gonna be like, that's not my thing. I'm never going

502
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: back there. You know, you just hope you catch on

503
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: with enough people that it works. And the one thing

504
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about. You know, one of the people

505
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: that came to the Renaissance Cup is my friend Michael Yamaki,

506
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: who's the manager of Riviera, very sharp business guy. We

507
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: were sitting at dinner after he played it the second

508
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 2: way around and he was like, you realize what you've done.

509
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: I said, I don't know what you're talking about. He said,

510
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 2: you only have to find half as many people that

511
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: are interested in this course because they'll all play. You know,

512
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 2: if they're interested, they're all going to play it the

513
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: second way around. So ten thousand interested people equals twenty

514
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: thousand rounds of golf. Yeah. I'm like, oh, I've never

515
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 2: really thought about it that way.

516
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 5: I think that's one of the cool things about being

517
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 5: part of this conversation is that there are things when

518
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 5: you have an idea that you've had in your hip

519
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 5: pocket or the back of your mind for a really

520
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 5: long time, and you think about it and refine it

521
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 5: and push it a little and redefine what you think

522
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 5: will work and won't work, and you have a lot

523
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 5: of preconceived notions that you know Tom's ironed out that

524
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 5: were good starting points. But then it also those things

525
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 5: bred all kinds of things that you didn't really have

526
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 5: answers to or questions you didn't really even think about.

527
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 5: And I think for Tom and the rest of us

528
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 5: that got to be a part of it. It was

529
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 5: cool because there were so many things that were not

530
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 5: conventional in this routing puzzle that we've had this discussion

531
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 5: about because they're just so exclusive to this situation. They're

532
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 5: just so different. They're not just parallel there by a

533
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 5: track or two. They're going literally and figuratively one hundred

534
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 5: and eighty degrees the other way. And I remember little

535
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 5: little dialogues with Tom and with Brian Slanik, who ran

536
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 5: the job, and Brian and Eric as they were getting

537
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 5: this stuff built, and one of the things myself, you know,

538
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 5: you have these preconceived notions, well, the Greens are going

539
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 5: to have to be big. You got to have big

540
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 5: putting surfaces right in order to be able to play

541
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 5: it from both directions and for it to be different.

542
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 5: And that you know, Tom should certainly chime in, but

543
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 5: I remember that Tom's saying, no, they don't have to

544
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 5: be big, they can actually be smaller. And that was

545
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 5: by virtue of you know, the approaches and the short

546
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 5: grass and the soil structure and how the ball behaved

547
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 5: around the greens as long as you had a playing

548
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 5: surface that behaved like a putting surface in plenty of

549
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 5: area in around, you know, on the green quote unquote

550
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 5: green proper and also the approaches and the you know,

551
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 5: when you short side yourself all of that kind of thing.

552
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 5: You don't really have to have a big green, You

553
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 5: just need a lot of green like area. And so

554
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 5: you know, you end up not really decorating a green

555
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 5: in sight with bunkers. You know, what you end up

556
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 5: doing is really focusing on contour and contour and short grass,

557
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 5: which we talked about all the time. That's one of

558
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 5: the coolest hazards in golf. It isn't a ravine or

559
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 5: a bunker or a pond or a quarry. It's the

560
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 5: greatest hazard in golf is really interesting contour and really

561
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 5: tight firm turf. And that was I think that was fun.

562
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 5: I know it had to be fun for Tom because

563
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 5: that is such a departure from what you normally would

564
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 5: would do. And and you know that's just one example,

565
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 5: but I you know, how you wayfind around this. This

566
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 5: golf course too was a real challenge, you know, and

567
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 5: how the golf course is set up is really important,

568
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 5: and you know, there was a vertical learning curve almost

569
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 5: for you know, Lou and his staff to make sure

570
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 5: that the team markers where they were supposed to be.

571
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 5: You know, so there were a lot of there are

572
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 5: a lot of residual challenges that you really had to

573
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 5: spend some brain cells on in order to figure out

574
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 5: to make sure that it worked, so that it wasn't

575
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 5: perceived as this you know, experimental, you know, kooky idea,

576
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 5: but that it was really legitimate and it really presented

577
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 5: really interesting golf and fun golf and playable golf, and

578
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 5: it wasn't just odd. It was actually really really really

579
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 5: very interesting. And you know, that's just one. But other

580
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 5: notions were the idea that you know, like Tom had

581
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 5: alluded to, when you're in a conventional golf course, all

582
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 5: that leftover ground where the ball, the lion's share of

583
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 5: the time is in the air, off the tee and

584
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 5: then coming to you know, one hundred yards pick your distance,

585
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 5: one hundred yards, one hundred and twenty five fifty yards.

586
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 5: You don't really need to do a whole lot to

587
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 5: that stuff. You don't need to irrigate it. You know,

588
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 5: you can leave it natural because it's sort of out

589
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 5: of play. But when you flip a golf hole around

590
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 5: come in the other direction, that stuff that got relatively

591
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 5: no attention was now getting a tremendous amount of attention

592
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 5: because it was in the approach coming the other way.

593
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 5: So you know, we really had to work hard. It's

594
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 5: fun to listen to Tom talk about this because the

595
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 5: things that he pointed out in this case really are

596
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 5: are far reaching into the other parts about you know,

597
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 5: the twenty seven hole course or the extra whole course

598
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 5: and people, you know, how they process it in their

599
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 5: mind and which courses which and all of that. So

600
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 5: there were and how to manage cart traffic is a

601
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 5: huge one. It always is on a golf course that

602
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 5: plays in one direction, but now when you're taking that

603
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 5: golfer traffic, especially when they're behind the wheel, and managing

604
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 5: where all that baggage goes in a normal around to

605
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 5: golf with people playing golf in a cart, which we

606
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 5: don't subscribe to, but you have to, you have to

607
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 5: integrate it at some point. That was tough.

608
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 2: Too, and we thought through all that, and then the

609
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: client said, oh, he went to Bandon Dunes for the

610
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 2: first time, and he said, what if we made it

611
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: walking only first. He said, I had never walked eighteen

612
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 2: holes in my life until Pacific. Dudes. He's from Arkansas

613
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 2: and it's hot and humid, and he just he'd never

614
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 2: walked eighteen holes in his life before he played in Bandon.

615
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: And then he comes back and he's like, I think

616
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 2: we should go with this walking only. And I was like,

617
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: that came completely out of left field to me. I

618
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: was not thinking we would get get away with that.

619
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: Is that one of the best surprises you've ever had

620
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: in your career.

621
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: It was a very good surprise, you know. But at

622
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 2: the same time, I was a little skeptical of it,

623
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 2: like I, I'll be shocked if they don't have some

624
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 2: carts out there next year or the year after, because

625
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 2: people there's a lot of people that don't do that,

626
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 2: you know. The first time I went to Forest Dunes,

627
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 2: as soon as I get there, the first thing, you know,

628
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 2: somebody's slamming your clubs on a on a cart. Whether

629
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: you ask for it or not, they just assume that's

630
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 2: what you're gonna do so. I just in Detroit Motor City.

631
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 2: That's the culture up here, so I figured that was

632
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 2: going to be a pretty hard cell to try to

633
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: get people to walk. And I think, you know, the

634
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: place is doing well, but it's it's not as busy

635
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: as the other course. And I think that's why as people,

636
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: you know, everybody plays it is interested by it. But

637
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: if they can't ride, there's a certain number of people

638
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: that are just like, ah, I can't do that, you know,

639
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 2: I just can't do that. And it's an easy walk.

640
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,919
Speaker 2: The Green to Tea is right there, and it's relatively flat,

641
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: so it's about as easy a walk as you could have.

642
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 2: But but it's still there's some people that just aren't

643
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: open to that, and and they're filling up rooms over there,

644
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 2: so the other you know, so the course that you

645
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 2: have to walk is not as full.

646
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 5: I think an interesting part about that line of thinking

647
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 5: too is I've noticed it, and I think a lot

648
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 5: of people do that. When you play the loop, it

649
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 5: is very walkable, and you know they've they've done they've

650
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 5: made an effort with caddies to make that part of

651
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 5: the experience and things, and it's pretty refreshing when you

652
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 5: finish around to golf if you don't play a lot

653
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 5: to feel like you're you're not golf fatigued. You're not

654
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 5: you know, you're not tired, and that that's a good

655
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 5: thing because that makes you hopefully want to play a

656
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 5: little bit more as well. And you know when people

657
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 5: go to play golf and band and or other places,

658
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 5: you know, I guess that's part of the the whole

659
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 5: idea of short courses and things, you know, to play

660
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 5: operate golf after the big course or after the round.

661
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 5: I still want to play, but I'm kind of tired.

662
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's not a lot of people that can play

663
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: thirty six holes a day walking.

664
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 5: Right, But you could. You could? You could there? You

665
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 5: could there? I mean you you wouldn't you know it

666
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 5: would be possible. So you know, hopefully that's a byproduct

667
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 5: of it is that people kind of notice they feel

668
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 5: a little less golf fatigued afterwards.

669
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: I know they're doing a couple of days next year

670
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: there that you can play thirty six in the same day,

671
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,959
Speaker 1: So they're doing I think like three or four days

672
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: where you can play it each way.

673
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: Oh good, So I hadn't seen that you know. I

674
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: mean I suggested that to him and the you know,

675
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 2: the beginning, I said to him, well, you pretty much

676
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: have to alternate every other day, so so the person

677
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: that's only staying one night can get the chance to

678
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: play both. But I said, you could have, like, you know,

679
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: if if you try to keep it on the numbers

680
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: where the odd days you were playing the black course

681
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: and even days you were playing the Red course or

682
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 2: whichever one you did. You know, when you got to

683
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: the thirty first of the month and then the first,

684
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 2: so there's a couple months that you wouldn't have at

685
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 2: you know, those days you could try to set up okay,

686
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 2: this is special, we're going to do a shotgun or something.

687
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: So you could play both ways and have a few

688
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 2: days of a year where you could try to do that.

689
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 2: But I hope they do.

690
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: That's I think that's exactly what they're doing.

691
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: It maybe one of your next questions, but you know,

692
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 2: don touched on something. Even after twenty years of thinking

693
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 2: about the whole concept in my head, there were certain

694
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 2: parts of it, like the fact that the greens didn't

695
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: have to be big, that I really kind of understood

696
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 2: going in. I thought about that a lot because I

697
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: figured if I figured, if you know a lot of

698
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: people they then seen Tom Simpson's book, They visualized the

699
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: old course at Saint Andrews, and they knew the story

700
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: about how that played backwards. So a ton of people

701
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: just assumed we were going to have these big double

702
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 2: greens that you could play into from different directions, and

703
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 2: they were huge double greens. They were going to be

704
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: huge double greens like Saint Andrews. And I was really

705
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 2: stubborn about that. From day one. I'm like, well, if

706
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 2: you had to have greens that big, then nobody's going

707
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 2: to do this concept. If you have to mow five

708
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: acres of greens to make this work, that's a lot

709
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 2: more expense. Who wants to do that? So from day one,

710
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: I told these guys, whatever else we do, these greens

711
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 2: can't be any bigger than every other project we do.

712
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: In fact, I'm gonna beyond you to keep these small

713
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 2: as small as we can get away with. But then

714
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 2: you know, and it's funny because the first, the first

715
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 2: question people asked me when we were building, the question

716
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 2: that I got all the time was how can that

717
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,919
Speaker 2: work without double greens? Isn't somebody getting get hit going

718
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 2: the other direction, and I'm like everybody, no, you're not

719
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 2: playing both ways at the same time. You know, the

720
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: holes going out to the end and the holes coming

721
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 2: back aren't necessary. They don't have to be as close

722
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 2: together as Saint Andrew's. The greens can be separate. You

723
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 2: only have to worry about, you know, you only have

724
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 2: to worry about one direction at a time. So it's

725
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: you know, there's there's no fear for that. But then

726
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 2: the thing that makes it so different that I didn't realize,

727
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 2: you know, where I fell into thinking wrong about it

728
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: was even though you know, I thought, I thought, well,

729
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: it's better if we keep going the same direction, like

730
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 2: Saint Andrews goes where you go. When you're going out,

731
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: you just step off to the right of the green,

732
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: and the next fairy keeps going that way, and it's

733
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 2: easy to keep the flow if you turn ninety degrees

734
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, like the old course does at

735
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 2: the end. Now you've either got a crossover, or you've

736
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 2: got you know, or you've got an awkward tee that's

737
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: like you're needing to hit over a green or something

738
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 2: to make the angle work. And so we were better

739
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 2: off the more we kept playing straight down the line,

740
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 2: the better it was. And that was one of the

741
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: things when I first saw the piece of land, I thought, oh, well,

742
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 2: number one, because of the way they built the first

743
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 2: course and where the clubhouse was, they couldn't really go

744
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: They couldn't have returning nines. It was kind of gonna

745
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: have to be out and back. So that that made

746
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 2: the concept work, and then you know, it was kind

747
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: of a long out and back. Basically, the course basically

748
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: starts by the back of the clubhouse where the parking

749
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: lot is, and with a couple of jogs, it works

750
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: its way around the property line to almost where the

751
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 2: entrance gate is, is where the ninth green is, and

752
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 2: it comes back. And so I thought it was going

753
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: to be better if it was like Saint Andrews and

754
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: you just kept going the same direction. And then I

755
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 2: realized when we tried to do that on paper, that

756
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 2: wasn't very long, and I said, oh, okay, So to

757
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 2: get enough length after number six, instead of going around

758
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 2: the property line, you know, we kind of had to

759
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: go from six back into the interior of the property

760
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 2: for seven and eight back out toward the boundary again,

761
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 2: and then nine along the boundary, and those turned out

762
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 2: to be some of the best holes. Versible part work better.

763
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: You know, when you when you had all the holes

764
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: that are like approaching from one hundred and eighty degrees opposite,

765
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 2: you keep having the same problem of how do you

766
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 2: make a green that's receptive from both directions because they're

767
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 2: dead opt to see each other. Like like if the greens,

768
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 2: if the green's tilted side to side, that works fine.

769
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: But if the greens like front to back or back

770
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,439
Speaker 2: to front one way, it's front to back the other way.

771
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 2: And you know, people with where the hole where green

772
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: goes away from you, people have a hard time with that,

773
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 2: you know. But the other because you don't see it

774
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 2: very well, you know. So we wound up with several

775
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: greens that are kind of crowned in the middle, so

776
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: you see some of it coming into the front. But

777
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 2: then if you fly it to the middle of the

778
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 2: green are past it's like on the downsloping out the back.

779
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: It's amazing how many times on on the loop, especially

780
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 2: when it was new, you'd see people like hit it

781
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 2: thirty yards over the green because once they carry to

782
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 2: the middle of the green, it hits on a downslope

783
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: and there's nothing but fairway going out the other way

784
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: for the approach for the next hole. So they just,

785
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 2: you know, way through the green like more than I'd

786
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: ever seen anywhere. It's not quite as firm as it

787
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: was on opening day, so that's that's softening up a

788
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 2: little bit, but there's still it's repetitive. You don't want

789
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: it to be repetitive. When the holes are when the

790
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 2: two holes are coming into the green ninety degrees apart

791
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 2: or something like that, you know, not exactly ninety degrees,

792
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 2: but something like that. It's amazingly more interesting because you

793
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 2: could do the simplest thing, like if you just build

794
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 2: a rectangular green, the one direction it's long and skinny,

795
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 2: the other direction it's wide and shallow. Yeah, and it

796
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 2: doesn't look like the same green at all. And not

797
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: only that, but with those two directions, the background looks

798
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 2: completely different. You're not looking just down the golf course anymore.

799
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 2: You could be looking at you know, one direction, you'll

800
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 2: be looking at a wall of trees behind the green,

801
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: which I didn't think we could even do when we

802
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: started routing the golf course. But if the other holes

803
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 2: come in ninety degrees to that, yeah, you can do that,

804
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 2: you know. It's just like having a wall of trees

805
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 2: at the very end of the ninth hole at Saint Andrew's.

806
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: But you can do it anywhere in the middle too.

807
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 2: So that's what makes the Those are the holes that

808
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: really make it feel completely different when you play it

809
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 2: when you turn around the next day. And I had

810
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 2: not figured that out at the start. It wasn't until

811
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: I had to make the routing that way. As soon

812
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: as I had to make the routing that way and

813
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: I put it on we put it on paper, it

814
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 2: was like, oh, this is going to be better. All

815
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 2: we have to do is figure out what to do

816
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 2: with the teas so they don't conflict with you. You know,

817
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 2: the tea going the one way doesn't conflict with the

818
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 2: tea going the other way. We basically had to give

819
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: up on using the same tea for both directions, and

820
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 2: that was a big leap, just giving up on using

821
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 2: the same tea. Because there's eighty eight the short grass there.

822
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: You could stick to tea markers anywhere out there and

823
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 2: have a golf hole, and we're used to doing that.

824
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 2: We're more and more in the last ten or twelve years,

825
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 2: we've built like we most short grass like off the green,

826
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: past the green and over to the next tee, so

827
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 2: you don't leave short grass between green and tea, which

828
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 2: is you know, I got that idea from Saint Andrews,

829
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 2: and I got that idea from this map of the

830
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 2: Valley Club on the wall, because that's the way they

831
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: gang mode the fairway and the gang mode right over

832
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 2: to the next tea in the old days, you know,

833
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: so that we'd already been doing stuff just like that,

834
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 2: you know. So we're basically just building fairway on two

835
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 2: different sides of the greens and building enough little flat

836
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: places in it that you could tee off from either

837
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 2: side from a.

838
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: He touched on just there with the acreage of fairway.

839
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 1: Steven Britton asked about the construction and maintenance cost difference

840
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: of having a reverse course versus a regular course. Was

841
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:03,959
Speaker 1: there anything substantial?

842
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: It's all irrigation. Yeah, you're you're, I mean, we've built

843
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 2: courses where we had seventy five or eighty acres of

844
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 2: turf before, just because we build it really wide. This one,

845
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 2: even building it a little narrower, is eighty five acres

846
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 2: of turf, So you know, you're you're irrigating maybe twenty

847
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 2: more acres, So that's another couple hundred thousand dollars maybe

848
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 2: in construction budget, like you don't but you don't have

849
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 2: to build the greens any bigger, so there's no extra

850
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 2: cost there, you know, And you're maintaining twenty more acres

851
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: of fairway. So that's you know, again the green well,

852
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,399
Speaker 2: but it's not, but it's not, but it's not. I mean,

853
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 2: fairway maintenance is only a fraction of the budget, and

854
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 2: that's it's not the most expensive part. I mean, the

855
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 2: greens maintenance is the most expensive part. That's why making

856
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 2: the greens bigger is a bit you know, That's why

857
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 2: I wanted to stay away from that. I knew the

858
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: fairways would be more acreage to maintain, but at the

859
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 2: end of the day, you know, there's a there's like

860
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 2: zero mode rough to deal with. You know. Essentially, we're

861
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 2: taking some areas that we probably would have had to

862
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: grass and take care of as rough and turning them

863
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: into fairway. So it might add ten percent to the

864
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: maintenance budget or fifteen percent, but I know, I mean,

865
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 2: we're also using fescue, which is not as high a

866
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 2: cost per acre as bank grass. You know, forest dunes.

867
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 2: I haven't seen the numbers, but I almost guarantee you

868
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 2: that they spend less maintaining the Loop than they do

869
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 2: the wise cof course next door, which is all you know,

870
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,879
Speaker 2: it's not it's not as much fairway acreage, but it's

871
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 2: bank grass fairways, tightly maintained, super high end maintenance. I'll

872
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 2: bet they spend more money on that.

873
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: That's one of as being somebody that came from business

874
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: and you know, gotten the golf is one of the

875
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: most fascinating things I find about the Loop is like

876
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: the economics of having two distinct golf courses for just

877
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 1: about the same price. Hearing that doesn't cost much more

878
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,720
Speaker 1: to build or to maintain it with like urban areas,

879
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: it just seems like something that should be done more often.

880
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, probably more often on a smaller scale, and

881
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: not the full eighteen holes going backwards, but who knows.

882
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, nine holes would be cool. You've been listening to

883
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: the fried Egg podcast.

884
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 2: We do the digging for you.