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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph. A

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Speaker 1: young mom goes missing. She is absolutely gorgeous. The family

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Speaker 1: begging for help, along with the FBI and Virginia Police.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you see, Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us today. We need you now

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Speaker 1: more than ever. Let me just start with the tip

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Speaker 1: line one eight hundred, lock you up, one eight hundred

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Speaker 1: five six to eight eight eight seven. This is urgent.

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Speaker 1: We are on the search for a beautiful young mom,

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Speaker 1: Bellany Gamboa repeat, Bellamy Gamboa, FBI and Virginia Police searching

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Speaker 1: for the missing mom of four. You know, in older

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Speaker 1: sister fashion, Bellamy Gamboa texts her younger sister, Sharise to

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Speaker 1: check in on her, her family, her dog. Bellamy in

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Speaker 1: Virginia Beach, Virginia and Sharice in Orange County. That's California.

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Speaker 1: The sisters live across the country from each other, but

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Speaker 1: are always in touch. Or any of you like that,

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Speaker 1: because I am. I've got my brother and my sister

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Speaker 1: in two different parts of the country. I'm on it everyday.

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Speaker 1: People be in text or phone, so i know everybody's okay.

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Speaker 1: It's not working that way for Bellamy gambo as sister sister.

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Speaker 1: Let's start at the top with me Crime online dot

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Speaker 1: com investigative reporter Lee Egan rightnowned New York psychologist Karen Stark,

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Speaker 1: judge lawyer, founder of child crime watch dot com, Ashley Wilcott, Last,

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Speaker 1: but not least, former cop turned p I Vincent Hill,

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Speaker 1: Lee Egan, how is this unfolding? Just let's start at

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Speaker 1: the beginning, because right now we're getting a break in

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Speaker 1: the case. Let's start, though, at the beginning with Bellamy Gamboa,

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Speaker 1: Hi do I How do I know she's missing in

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Speaker 1: He's not stretched out on Miami Beach getting a tan well,

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Speaker 1: as you said, Nancy, the family talks daily, and on

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Speaker 1: July two, that did not happen. She was not answering

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Speaker 1: her tech, she didn't show up for work, she didn't

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Speaker 1: call nothing. They heard nothing at all. When that happened,

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Speaker 1: the family became concerned and started searching for her. Hold

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Speaker 1: on just a moment, because my brother calls me constantly,

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Speaker 1: Karen's dark, I think you've met him. Um, Actually he

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Speaker 1: doesn't call me constantly, but he does call and says,

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Speaker 1: I called you, I called you, you didn't call me back,

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Speaker 1: and he's right. He's always right. But I make a

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Speaker 1: point to put my phone away, and you know, for

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Speaker 1: hours when I'm with the twins, I try not to

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Speaker 1: even have it around them. And I learned the hard

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Speaker 1: way care And remember when I had cocoa the cap

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Speaker 1: when I would get on my them BlackBerry, he would

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Speaker 1: turn around and walk off. All right, So how do

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Speaker 1: you think it affects children? I learned it from the cat.

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Speaker 1: He would just leave, and so I why not to

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Speaker 1: have it? And my brother is always right. He has

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Speaker 1: called and I haven't seen it and I haven't called back,

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Speaker 1: so he always gets me. You got me? So how Lee,

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Speaker 1: you really got my attention, Not because she wasn't returning

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Speaker 1: text but when she didn't show up for work. Okay,

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Speaker 1: because that's big, Jackie Howard. If you don't show up

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Speaker 1: for work, I'm calling the police and I'm reporting Alan

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Speaker 1: deep Okay, first of all, but back to you, Lee,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean she didn't show up from work?

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Speaker 1: Bellay was the type of person who, even if she

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Speaker 1: was a few minutes late, would call from the elevator

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Speaker 1: to her boss and let her know I'm almost there.

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Speaker 1: She never missed work, never ever, and her employer was

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Speaker 1: so concerned when he didn't hear from her that he

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Speaker 1: actually sent police to her apartment to check on her.

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Speaker 1: So it was a big red flag that she didn't

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Speaker 1: show up to work. You know what they call that,

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Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott, judge lawyer found her child crime much dot com.

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Speaker 1: They called that it evidence of routine and I saw

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Speaker 1: it really come to the forefront front in the case

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Speaker 1: of add non sed. You remember him. He was the

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Speaker 1: focus of pod of serial the podcast ps he did it,

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Speaker 1: by the way, But that's a whole anther cannon worms.

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Speaker 1: Cannon worms, uh, because add noned had a rigid routine.

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Speaker 1: He went to school, he got out of school, he

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Speaker 1: had tracked practice and he did this, this, this, and

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Speaker 1: then he went to um services at his UH with

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Speaker 1: his dad and every night. And for him to break

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Speaker 1: out of that routine the one day his girlfriend is killed,

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Speaker 1: that's very unusual. So here that's what we had evidence

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Speaker 1: of routine and that's pardon the pun routinely comes into court.

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Speaker 1: Explain why it's so important, Ashley. It's so important because

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Speaker 1: that is evidence during the investigation to prove that something

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Speaker 1: either happened to someone and that's why they broke routine

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Speaker 1: or that they never had a routine and they're kind

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Speaker 1: of out there doing their things. So it's really imperative

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Speaker 1: because what that indicates in this case is most likely

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Speaker 1: something happened to her because she was not one to

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Speaker 1: break her routine. Vincent Hill, private eye, explain to me,

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Speaker 1: your former cop Nashville p D. Why is it cops

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Speaker 1: always say, and no offense. I'm on your side, okay,

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Speaker 1: unless you track somebody down and beat him in the

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Speaker 1: head or shoot them, all right, But typically I'm on

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Speaker 1: the side of the cops, Vincent White. Cops always say, oh,

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Speaker 1: she's just out with her boyfriend, she'll show up. Why

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Speaker 1: do they do that, Well, mane, because there's nothing illegal

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Speaker 1: about being a missing adult. Because you're an adult, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to be responsible or answer to anyone. Still,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing illegal or suspicious about being a missing adult. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: that's always the fault that police go to. But that's

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Speaker 1: the law. Okay, all right, you're right. You got me

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Speaker 1: over the barrel on that one. So Karen Stark when

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Speaker 1: she misses her work, that in my mind starts the timeline.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to backtrack in a minute, but that's the

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Speaker 1: first time we know for sure something is amiss. Well,

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Speaker 1: she's changing with her routine and on top of that,

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Speaker 1: that is the beginning. Nancy. But she is not in

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Speaker 1: touch with her teenage twins and she usually is, and

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Speaker 1: that that is even more telling to me, because you know,

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Speaker 1: you're a mom and the twins are everything to you.

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Speaker 1: She would never miss talking to them before they had

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Speaker 1: a game, and all of a sudden she's gone. She's

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Speaker 1: not in touch with Karen. That speaks more than even

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Speaker 1: missing work that morning, Lee Egan, She's right with me,

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Speaker 1: Lee Egan. Crime Online dot Com invest to get every

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Speaker 1: porter right now. We've got breaking news in the case

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Speaker 1: of missing Bellamy. We have not found Bellamy, though though

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Speaker 1: Bellamy gamboa Lisa, what do we know? We know she

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Speaker 1: wasn't at Worth that Monday morning? What else do we

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Speaker 1: know as to her? The last credible signing credible In

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Speaker 1: other words, I can corroborate it. The last credible sighting

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Speaker 1: was from her. I guess he'd be a former boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: He did see her, but it's unclear when he saw her.

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Speaker 1: His timeline kept changing. Well then that's not credible, so

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Speaker 1: that that's not really helping me. I gotta go with

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Speaker 1: something credible. We know on Friday June she was checking

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Speaker 1: in with her little sister in California. We know that

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Speaker 1: there are screenshots out there of the conversation. We know

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Speaker 1: she was there. Then this mother of four, very tight

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Speaker 1: family bond. Two days later, on Sunday, Schari says, the

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Speaker 1: sisters communicated again on Instagram by liking each other's photos. Now,

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Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott, we often hear people getting your cell phone

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Speaker 1: and pretending they're you. I don't really think that would

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Speaker 1: extend to liking your sister's photos. No, absolutely, that makes

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Speaker 1: no sense at all. It just who would do that?

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Speaker 1: Why would they do that? You have to look at

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Speaker 1: everything we know up until this point and the fact

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Speaker 1: that she's disappeared. Nobody has heard from her. She didn't

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Speaker 1: go to work, she broke routine. All of these things

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Speaker 1: are amiss. I cannot believe that someone too take the

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Speaker 1: phone and like the photo. Yeah, that's not Uh. Usually

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Speaker 1: if you're trying to fake being somebody on their phone,

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Speaker 1: you'll send a text message or something over like that. Now,

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Speaker 1: so that gives me lee her aline. I think on

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Speaker 1: Sunday that would be Let see thirty days s September, April, June,

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Speaker 1: and November. So now I'm at July one, July one.

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Speaker 1: I think I am on a Sunday Monday morning July too,

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Speaker 1: she doesn't show up. That starts my timeline right there.

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Speaker 1: I think she was alive on Sunday night. She's not

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Speaker 1: at work on Sunday morning, so Sunday, I wonder what

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Speaker 1: time that was on Sunday, but we know she was alive.

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Speaker 1: I think on Sunday night, Lee aigan. What's the next

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Speaker 1: thing that happens her? She her balls, says she's not

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Speaker 1: there on Monday. The family starts saying, hey, where is she?

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Speaker 1: What about her vehicle? Did she drive to work? Lee?

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Speaker 1: Supposedly she drove to work, But the biggest thing that

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Speaker 1: happened after she didn't show up for work with her teens,

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Speaker 1: she's a team mom on the son's baseball team, and

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Speaker 1: she anytime a game would start, she would text all

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Speaker 1: the teammates and do like an encouraging tweet, say you know,

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Speaker 1: go team, and you know, just get them ready for

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Speaker 1: the game. That never happened, and then that's when the

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Speaker 1: family went into a panic, because that is something that

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Speaker 1: she absolutely would never this now hold on. Let me

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Speaker 1: get this straight. What day was the game? That was

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Speaker 1: on July two? That's Monday, Monday evening. Yes, okay, so

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Speaker 1: that's even that's very strong evidence because she's breaking routine

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Speaker 1: again about her car. What do we know about her vehicle?

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Speaker 1: We think she drives to work, But isn't it true

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Speaker 1: her car was found abandoned to Lee Eagan, what if anything,

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Speaker 1: can you tell me about her car? Okay? So her

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Speaker 1: two thousand and fifteen gold Forward Focus was found abandoned.

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Speaker 1: They found it on July three. We're still not sure

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Speaker 1: who took the car there, but it was parked in

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Speaker 1: front of a dumpster and the maintenance and people couldn't

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Speaker 1: get to the trash, so they called in and had

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Speaker 1: it towed and then police picked Actually they found it

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Speaker 1: on July two, and then the police found it in

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Speaker 1: tow and impound on July three. Wow, so that gives

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Speaker 1: me July second again, July two is that Monday. We're

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Speaker 1: back starting the timeline. July two. Her car was there

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Speaker 1: blocking the dumpster, the trash people couldn't get it, and

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Speaker 1: that's how it ends up in in Pound. Then she's

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Speaker 1: reported missing and that's when cops get ahold of it.

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Speaker 1: It was found part next to a dumpster about four

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Speaker 1: miles from where she was last seen. Now this is

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Speaker 1: what we know. We know that a friend of her

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Speaker 1: is Tiffany Hazley says that the location where her car

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Speaker 1: was found is very unusual because it's not anywhere Bellamy

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Speaker 1: would visit, all right, So it's not like she dropped

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Speaker 1: it there and went for a hike or a jog.

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Speaker 1: Somebody took it there. And that Vincent Hill private eye,

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Speaker 1: former cop is very important because they gotta process this

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Speaker 1: car and find fingerprints, hopefully d n a something. What

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Speaker 1: about it, Vincent finding a car by a dumpster? What

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Speaker 1: does that tell you? Yeah, that's very troubling, Nancy. Not

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Speaker 1: only do they have to processs the car, but if

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Speaker 1: I was investigating that snide process that dumpster because usually

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Speaker 1: people don't park their car next to a dumpster because

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Speaker 1: it's trashy as dirty people walk by it. So there

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Speaker 1: could be something in that dumpster that may lead to

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Speaker 1: the discovery of this young mother. There is a financial

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Speaker 1: reward for tips information leading to Bellamy's whereabouts. At this hour,

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Speaker 1: we're still looking for Bellamy, but also breaking news right now,

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Speaker 1: someone has been taken into custody. We know that we

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Speaker 1: still don't know where Bellamy is. Lee Egan, Crime Online

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Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter, the breaking news. What is it?

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Speaker 1: Bellamy's forty two year old former boyfriend, Lamont Johnson has

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Speaker 1: been arrested for a second degree murder and four counts

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Speaker 1: of contributing to the delinquency or abuse of a child.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, Ashley, Ashley Willcott. We don't have a body.

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Speaker 1: We don't know where she is. She's still missing. But

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Speaker 1: that abuse of the minor charge, what does that tell you? Well,

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Speaker 1: obviously bad news is what it tells me. And we

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Speaker 1: don't know who the victims are of that um child abuse,

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Speaker 1: but all around bad, bad, bad, because not only are

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Speaker 1: we missing a mother, now we know there's some children

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Speaker 1: who he's abused allegedly and is being charged with. You

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Speaker 1: know that, uh Johnson, this guy is the father of

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Speaker 1: gambo Is twin infants. And she had been saying just

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Speaker 1: before her disappearance that she was living in fear. The

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Speaker 1: tipline eight hundred lacke up eight hundred, five six to five,

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Speaker 1: eight eight seven, Please help us find Bellamy Gamboa. It

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Speaker 1: is so hard to work cold cases. Especially when you

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Speaker 1: know your colleagues have already picked the case clean. But

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Speaker 1: there's a former prosecutor named Kelly Siegler who's a true

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Speaker 1: champion for justice on a mission across America. What I

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Speaker 1: love about Oxygen's Cold Justice is that Kelly and her

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Speaker 1: team of detectives take on real unsolved murdered cases and

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Speaker 1: get real answers for victims and their families. You'll love

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Speaker 1: how immersive the show is. You feel like you're right

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Speaker 1: there a writing shotgun with the team. They're passionate crusaders

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Speaker 1: for justice and that's what makes each case so personal

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Speaker 1: to the team. Watch the new season of Cold Justice

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Speaker 1: Saturday at six five Central on Oxygen Crimes Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph. A beautiful baby girl

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Speaker 1: goes missing? What happened to Baby Lisa? The disappearance of

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Speaker 1: baby Lisa renee Irwin has mystified the public ever since

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Speaker 1: she goes missing on the early morning hours of October four.

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Speaker 1: Her mom and dad still confounded about what happened to

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Speaker 1: baby Lisa. She had been in her bed when mom

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Speaker 1: checked on her at six forty pm on Monday night,

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Speaker 1: but when dad, Jeremy gets home from work from the

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Speaker 1: night shift on Tuesday. He discovers the front door unlocked,

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Speaker 1: cell phones missing along with baby Lisa. Mommy says she

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Speaker 1: heard nothing with me. Missy res Mussen, writer and co

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Speaker 1: author of upcoming books She's not Here. The Strange Disappearance

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Speaker 1: of Lisa Irwin. Jacqueline Heller, private investigator and co author

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Speaker 1: of that book, She's Not Here. The Strange Disappearance of

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Speaker 1: Lisa Irwin. Dr Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologist and founder

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Speaker 1: of Transformation Products dot Com. Ashley Willcott, juvenile judge, lawyer

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Speaker 1: and founder of Child Crime Watch dot com, along with

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Speaker 1: former cop turned p I Vincent Hill to Jacqueline Heller, Jacqueline,

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Speaker 1: I want to dissect what happened the night baby Lisa

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Speaker 1: goes missing. Now, earlier in the day, Mom was spotted

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Speaker 1: grocery shopping. What can you tell me about that? Um.

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Speaker 1: She was spotted in the store with her brother. They

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Speaker 1: she purchased the box of wine that her in the

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Speaker 1: neighborhood consumed. She had also purchased some diapers. UM Deborah

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Speaker 1: and her brother went home. Jeremy went to work. The

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Speaker 1: brother left UM Samantha, which has been neighbor and Deb

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Speaker 1: were on the porch. Another neighbor came down the street

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Speaker 1: hung out with them. Um. The windness stated that he

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Speaker 1: didn't see any of the kids and then he left

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Speaker 1: the girls. You know, dead one inside turned the neighbor

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Speaker 1: saw her turn the lights off, and dead went to bed. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let me understand the scenario with me. Jacqueline Heller and

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Speaker 1: Missy rest muss and Missy. That day, the mom is

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Speaker 1: caught on surveillance video at a grocery store. She's with

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Speaker 1: her own brother and they're shopping. Do they have the

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Speaker 1: children with them, Missy? No, they are, It's just the

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Speaker 1: two of them. The children are at home with Jeremy, okay,

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Speaker 1: so nothing odd there. They pick up items, including I

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Speaker 1: think it was a box of wine. They come home,

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Speaker 1: Jeremy at some point leaves for his night job. He

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Speaker 1: says the children were all fine at that point, baby

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Speaker 1: Lisa specifically, he leaves and wife Deb and Samantha and

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Speaker 1: another neighbor then go and sit on the front porch

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Speaker 1: and consume one. Do we know, Missy, how long they

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Speaker 1: were out there drinking a while? Um? It was approximately

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Speaker 1: six thirty six forty um when she uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: put Lisa in her crib and the other children are

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Speaker 1: sitting in the living room watching a movie. Um. The

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Speaker 1: neighbor had a child as well who was over there,

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Speaker 1: and they essentially at that time went outside and and started,

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Speaker 1: you know, drinking and talking. What I'm trying to get at,

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Speaker 1: Missy is that, of course, but how long were they

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Speaker 1: there and did not see or hear baby Lisa? Um

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Speaker 1: it was about ten thirty, so good four hours. About

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Speaker 1: ten thirty that um, deb called it a night. Um

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Speaker 1: Sam goes back to her house and witnesses the lights

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Speaker 1: going off at Debb's house. Um Sam continued to stay

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Speaker 1: stay outside UM for a little while longer with the

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Speaker 1: other neighbor, so essentially in in you know, in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: at that time, there were still eyes on that house.

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Speaker 1: But the baby had not been seen or heard from

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Speaker 1: for four hours six thirty to ten thirty, not from

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Speaker 1: any reports that I have seen or read. As she

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Speaker 1: Willcott dodge you don't judge, lawyer and found her child

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Speaker 1: crime watch dot com. Four hours of sitting on the

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Speaker 1: front porch drinking. Um, not judging, don't care. What I

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Speaker 1: care about is baby Lisa. Now. Later the mom said

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Speaker 1: she checked the baby at ten thirty when she went

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Speaker 1: in had the lights off. That story has changed, So

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to establish a timeline here at from six

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Speaker 1: thirty on. If she did not check the baby, the

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Speaker 1: baby was unattended, which means anyone could have come in

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Speaker 1: the house while mommy's on the front porch with the

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Speaker 1: box of wine and taking the baby. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that's far fetched or not, but it's possible, Ashley,

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Speaker 1: it is possible. You've put all the chronologically together, and

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Speaker 1: it is possible, and it scares the heck out of me,

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Speaker 1: right Like, this is anybody's worst nightmare. You're ten month

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Speaker 1: old disappears in the middle of the night. But you've

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Speaker 1: got six thirty pm until four am, which is a

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Speaker 1: long window to narrow down when it may have happened. Deborah,

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Speaker 1: the mom, says she last saw her daughter at either

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Speaker 1: six forty or ten thirty. The accounts differ Missy Rasmussen

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Speaker 1: and Jacqueline Heller here. They have studied the case very carefully.

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Speaker 1: Jacqueline Heller, I know exactly exactly the last time I

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Speaker 1: saw the twins, Oh exactly. I know the the last

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Speaker 1: time I saw my own children exactly now, let me

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Speaker 1: understand something. Missy has told me that her deb story

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Speaker 1: has changed. Regarding when she saw Lisa. Tell me about

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Speaker 1: that change of story. I think she might have got

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Speaker 1: it confused, you know, being a little bit buzzed. She

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Speaker 1: could have walked by, stood in the doorway. What I

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Speaker 1: think is important is not only the fact that she

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Speaker 1: changed her story, but the fact that she did pass

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Speaker 1: that light detect your test. That's very important. She did

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Speaker 1: pass a lie detector test, and those things are hard

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Speaker 1: to be got. A question for you. Was the baby

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Speaker 1: in the same room as the other children are? Now

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Speaker 1: that's something that we don't know for sure. Well, dot,

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Speaker 1: the mom know what room the baby was sleeping in. Well, apparently,

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Speaker 1: Babe Lisa was sick that night and the mom had

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Speaker 1: dated that she laid her in her crib and then

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Speaker 1: later on, um Lisa was standing up. Debora went back

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Speaker 1: in and tucked her in and went back outside. But

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Speaker 1: in the room where she tucked her in, was she

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Speaker 1: in the room with the other children that they sleep

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Speaker 1: in the same room together. No, Lisa has her own room.

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Speaker 1: So baby Lisa was in her room and the other

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Speaker 1: children were in a separate room. This is what we

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Speaker 1: know that evening um the mother, Deborah was also caring

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Speaker 1: for Lisa's two older half brothers. They were asleep in

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Speaker 1: another room. She admits she had been drinking wine that night.

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Speaker 1: That is not a felony. She admits that she had

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Speaker 1: too much to drink and was drunk. She also says

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Speaker 1: she had taken a prescription medication for anxiety. So you

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Speaker 1: got to take all that into account when her stories

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Speaker 1: get confused. Okay, when she says she saw her in

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Speaker 1: either six thirty or ten thirty, it's gonna be hard

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Speaker 1: for her to remember under those conditions what she saw.

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Speaker 1: We know she is, though there are witnesses with her

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Speaker 1: on the front porch. Vincent, he will probably an investigator.

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Speaker 1: And I find it hard to believe that this mom

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Speaker 1: could have harmed the baby and then gone and sat

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Speaker 1: out and had a box of wine with her neighbors.

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Speaker 1: That's a little hard to believe. I mean, could she

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Speaker 1: have done that, Yes, she could have, but I think

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Speaker 1: having had a lot of wine and the medication, it

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Speaker 1: would have been really hard for her to fake off

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Speaker 1: having killed her baby. I think that would have been

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Speaker 1: very difficult for her to do. It would have been

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Speaker 1: hard to pull off Nancy and and even let's back

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Speaker 1: up earlier in that afternoon. I mean she was out

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Speaker 1: buying diapers for the baby, so that shows she was

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Speaker 1: caring for the baby at some point. So we can't

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Speaker 1: hold the fact that she was out drinking wine against her.

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Speaker 1: Anything could have happened within those four hours that led

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Speaker 1: to Lisa's disappearance. We are talking about the disappearance of

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Speaker 1: a beautiful baby girl, Lisa Irwin. Now it's my understanding.

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Speaker 1: Back to Jacqueline Heller, p I and author. The dad,

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Speaker 1: Jeremy Irwine, is an electrician. He comes home from work

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Speaker 1: around four a m. The next morning. He is the

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Speaker 1: one that discovers Lisa is gone. Is that right, Jacqueline? Yes?

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Speaker 1: And what else does he find in the home? Apparently

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Speaker 1: dead had also taken in a straight kitten that night

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Speaker 1: as well, and the kitten was in the bed with her.

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Speaker 1: Her son. The other little boy had gotten up and

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Speaker 1: went to his room sometime during the night, so we

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Speaker 1: don't know if he had gotten up and went to

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Speaker 1: his bed before Lisa was taken or after she had

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Speaker 1: already disappeared. Joining me right now, the founder of Class

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Speaker 1: Kids Foundation, the survivor of crime, his daughter, beautiful Polly,

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Speaker 1: was taken from their home. Mark Class is joining me,

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Speaker 1: aren't you know? There's been so much controversy surrounding the

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Speaker 1: disappearance of Lisa Irwin. You know the facts. Mommy on

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Speaker 1: the front porch with neighbors for several hours, having a

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Speaker 1: box of wine, also on anti anxiety medication. The dad

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Speaker 1: had gone to work an overnight shift as an electrician.

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Speaker 1: That has been verified. What happened way in Mark Class, Well, Nacy,

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Speaker 1: I've been revisiting this case, as as have many people recently,

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Speaker 1: and I continue to see the mother just in tears.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she's obviously in in the horrible shape. She

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Speaker 1: feels terrible about what happened, and I have to believe

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Speaker 1: from watching her that she had nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: this disappearance. That against all odds, somehow somebody came into

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Speaker 1: this house and took little baby Lisa and she hasn't

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Speaker 1: been seen since. But I really don't believe it's the

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Speaker 1: parents at all. But I do believe the parents made

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Speaker 1: so many critical errors as far as the moving timelines,

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Speaker 1: as far as the people they brought in to help them,

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Speaker 1: as far as their behavior during the entire investigation, that

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Speaker 1: the investigation derailed, and it became about something else entirely.

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Speaker 1: When you say the investigation derailed, what do you mean

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Speaker 1: by that, Mark Lass, Well, listen, they brought in a

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Speaker 1: high priced uh defense attorney from New York City for

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00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: goodness sake, and also a high profile private investigator from

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Speaker 1: New York City, both individuals who had absolutely no experience

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Speaker 1: with missing child cases, and under the direction of the lawyer,

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Speaker 1: Joe Takapino, their children were not allowed to be interviewed

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Speaker 1: by law enforcement. For goodness sake. These were boys that

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Speaker 1: were in the house when the crime occurred, and for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, the lawyer is rowing shade of law enforcement

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Speaker 1: by not letting them be part of the interview. So

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00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 1: it really became almost about what's going on with these

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Speaker 1: people and and why are they being so uh, why

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00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: are they being so so so uncoopered, curious and uncoofertive

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Speaker 1: in the way this was being invest Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: you've got two people, ordinary people like all of us,

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Speaker 1: and a high price lawyer comes in from New York

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Speaker 1: City and says, listen, stop talking to the cops. They're

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Speaker 1: looking at you. Well, of course they're looking at the

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Speaker 1: mother and father. Mark Class because that's where you always

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Speaker 1: start looking. But Mark, just pretend you're not here for

425
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: a moment. To Ashley Wilcott, child Crime watch dot com,

426
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: I always hold up Mark class as the goal standard.

427
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: When Polly went missing, he says, search my place, search

428
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: my office, search my car. He practically laid on the

429
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: courthouse steps, demanding that cops do whatever they wished with

430
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: him so they could look for Polly and rule him out.

431
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 1: He did not hire a lawyer and refused to speak

432
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: to cops. On the other hand, ash these people, I mean,

433
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: when you have a high price lawyer saying stop talking

434
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: to cops right now, they're gonna do it. Of course

435
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 1: they are. It looked horrible at the time, Ashley, it

436
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: does look horrible. I agree with you, and I you

437
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: never know what you're gonna do unless God forbid you're

438
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: in this horrific, tragic situation. But I agree with you.

439
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: You are not going to lawyer up and not talk

440
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: and not share information. Instead, what you're gonna do is say,

441
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: come in, do everything you can. I've got to find

442
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: my child. I've got to find my child. And why

443
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: would a lawyer say don't talk to the police. That's

444
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: my other piece. I mean, it just doesn't add up.

445
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: It bothers me to Mark class Mark. When Polly first

446
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: went missing, Um, you went through pure hell and you

447
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: you stayed in hell for years and years and years.

448
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: But at the time, what did police, How do police

449
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: treat you when Polly went missing? Well, they were pretty

450
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: upfront with me, Nancy. They were very good. They told

451
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: me that I would be a person of suspicion until

452
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: I was able to eliminate myself, and that the best

453
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: way to do that was to talk to law enforcement

454
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: and answer all of their questions, which I was more

455
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: than happy to do. Another thing they did, which I

456
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: think was really beneficial, is they gave me my own

457
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: um liaison with law enforcement. It was it was. There

458
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: were actually two of them. There was Mike Meets, the

459
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: great detective who has since passed, and Eddie Fryer, the

460
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: local FBI agent who was available to me at all

461
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: times and was very upfront with me. Um answered all

462
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: of my questions, told me when he thought I would

463
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: be interfering in the investigation, and by that I mean

464
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: bringing him endless tips from from psychics. UM. As far

465
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: as what that lawyer did to Baby Lisa's parents, by

466
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: telling them not to cooperate with the police, as he

467
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: had a whole different focus. Their focus should have been

468
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: bringing baby Lisa home. The lawyer's focus is protecting baby

469
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: Lisa's parents. So you're an absolute odds there as to

470
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: what exactly you're going to accomplish through this investigation. And unfortunately,

471
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: because he was high profile, because somebody else was paying

472
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: for him, because he was surrounded by reporters, I guess

473
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: the parents listened to him and decided to follow his

474
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: advice as opposed to their own gut feeling. You make

475
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: an excellent point. However, when deb took her light detector test,

476
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: the police department knew that she had passed, and instead

477
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: of you know, moving on to the next lead and

478
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: and you know, clearing the parents of their involvement, they lied,

479
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: and they hounded and they harassed the Crimes against Children

480
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: Division who was who was handling Lisa's case in two

481
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen, several of them were suspended or fired

482
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: to their inability to work cases. Jacqueline Heller, private investigator

483
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: and author of the upcoming book about Lisa, when pointing out,

484
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: you know the inner workings of police at this time,

485
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: Vincent Hill private investigator, former cop. Now, we were talking earlier, Jacqueline,

486
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: Missy and I about the mom having had a box

487
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: of wine on anti anxiety meds on the front porch,

488
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: with witnesses placing her there for several hours, the capability

489
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: she may or may not have had to to form

490
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: a lie about baby Lisa. I find it hard to

491
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: believe that a mom could have a box of wine

492
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: and on meds and keep up a lie for hours

493
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: on in with neighbors, knowing that her baby is dead inside.

494
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: I find that hard to believe. Vincent, agree or disagree?

495
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: I agree, Nancy. I mean, it just would have been

496
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: hard to pull that off. And I understand why investigators

497
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: initially looked at the parents, because there are at least

498
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: some they're they're closest to the scene. They said, all

499
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: you've been out drinking. How do we know you're drinking?

500
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: There's this time descripancy. But after she was cleared via

501
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: the lie detective tests, the biggest gap here was that

502
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: investigators didn't move on the continued to look at the mother. Well,

503
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: you can't rely on a lie detector alone. Um, there's

504
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: a reason they're not allowed in court. And I agree

505
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: with the cops on this. I don't think that they

506
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: should have dropped it looking at the parents just because

507
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: she passed a live detector test. However, if her story

508
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: is corroborated and there's no evidence to support she harmed

509
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: the baby, I certainly don't think the moms should have

510
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: been harassed. Hold on Dr Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologist,

511
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: once in Why You Dr. Chloe, Well, Nancy, I actually

512
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: differ with you on the idea regarding alcohol and medication. Um.

513
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: I think that if a person is drinking and using

514
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: drugs a lot of times, that's actually uh part of

515
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: what we called dissociative behavior, which means that they're actually

516
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: trying to dull their nerves or dull their awareness, or

517
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: maybe act in a little bit of a dazed manner

518
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: kind of take the edge off a little bit. Um. Also,

519
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: as far as being seen purchasing diapers, I mean, you know,

520
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: just to kind of be the devil's advocate here, you

521
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: could also deliberately be seen purchasing diapers in order to

522
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: you know, demonstrate a future oriented mindset regarding your child.

523
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: So I wouldn't really read too much into those particular events. Well,

524
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, hold on just a moment, let's talk about

525
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: the hard events that we have. Is it true, too,

526
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: Jacqueline Heller that a cadaver dog reportedly smelled or hit

527
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: on an unusual scent, a cadaver dog in the parents bedroom,

528
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: and were there burnt baby cloth was found in a

529
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: neighborhood dumpster. And yes, the dentster fire, there was baby

530
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: clothes the Irwin's um. And you know we're questioned about

531
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: the baby clothes. They stated they were not Lisa's um.

532
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: For the cadaver dog hit, Missy, go ahead and tell

533
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: her about the cadaver dog. Yes, I mean that was

534
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: a cadaver dog hits in the bedroom. As far as

535
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 1: we know, there have been no follow up. Well, wait

536
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: a minute, for a cadaver dog to hit, that's a

537
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: really big deal. For a cadaver dog that hits only

538
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: on dead human remains, that's a really big deal for

539
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: a cadaver dog to hit in the parents bedroom. No,

540
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: I agree with you. So I think we need to

541
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: read thank your client. Police quote harassed the parents after

542
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: a cadaver dog hits in their house. I guess they

543
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: did keep up the investigation. Well, we don't know if

544
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,919
Speaker 1: if someone passed away in the house before they moved in.

545
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: You know, there could have been another resident who lived

546
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: in the house, because I do believe that it was

547
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: a rental and you know, they could have hit on

548
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: something that somebody that had previously lived there and passed away.

549
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 1: You have any evidence at all to support that theory anything? Well,

550
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: we've been trying to make contact with the parents. They haven't.

551
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: You know, we want to bring our own kidaver dog team.

552
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: I do have a team that is ready to go.

553
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: Not My question is, do you have any evidence to

554
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 1: support your theory that you just disposed that maybe in

555
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: the past somebody else rented the home and died in

556
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: that room. Well, that's something that I want to talk

557
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: to the parents about. I don't have it yet. Okay

558
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: to Mark Class, founder of Class Kids Foundation, what do

559
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: you make of that, Mark, Well, we already know that

560
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: that the local law enforcement agency was in confident. I

561
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: don't believe. One of your guests just said that many

562
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: of them were just released from from that particular squad.

563
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: I always believe and I always say that when you

564
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: have these kinds of situation is when children have been kidnapped,

565
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: particularly out of their home for goodness sake, you need

566
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: to bring the FBI in. And you need to bring

567
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: the FBI in because they do have the expertise, they

568
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: do have the resources. They work these kinds of cases

569
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: on a regular basis, and they know exactly what they're doing.

570
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: And I don't think oversights like this would have occurred

571
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: had they been more active or even active in the investigation.

572
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 1: And then I guess one wants to know if if

573
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: they if other dogs were brought in to corroborate what

574
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: the first dog hit on. Well, we've got a whole

575
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: another cannon worms to open mark class, and that is

576
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: the siding of a man in the neighborhood with a

577
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 1: baby that very not And if that siding is true,

578
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: then the mom the dad are exonerated. What do we know,

579
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: if anything, about that guy, Missy Restmus, And what do

580
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: we know about the siding of an unrelated male in

581
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: the neighborhood that evening carrying a baby? Um? Well, there

582
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: are actually two sightings of a man carrying a baby. UM.

583
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 1: The first one was that approximately UM twelve fifteen, Tuesday morning, UM,

584
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: there was a couple who lived UM in the neighborhood.

585
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: The man was leaving for work, he noticed a man

586
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: walking down the street holding a baby. Um. He told

587
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: his wife. His wife continued to they thought it was odd.

588
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: She continued to watch from the window. UM. And later,

589
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: at approximately UM four o'clock in the morning, a man

590
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: writing a motorcycle noticed a man with a baby. The

591
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: description of the man with the baby is the same

592
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: both of these witnesses. UM. So he's seen and the

593
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: man on the motorcycle remembered it distinctly because he thought

594
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: it was chili. The baby wasn't wearing anything but a diaper,

595
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: and he remembered thinking I could offer them a ride

596
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: if I weren't on my motorcycle. And so those were

597
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 1: the two sightings, um four hours apart from each other.

598
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: So if they're the same man, I don't know. If

599
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,919
Speaker 1: it's the same baby, I don't know, but I mean

600
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: they're likelihood. To Ashley Willcott of there being two different

601
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: men in the neighborhood fitting the same general description carrying

602
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: the same baby, I mean, it's it's astronomically unlikely. It is,

603
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: and I would be on that so fast because it

604
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: is unlikely and that could have been their baby. It's

605
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: it's a little um boggling to me why there wasn't

606
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: a real urgency around all of these different pieces by

607
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: the family, by the parents. We parents aren't investigators. It's

608
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: not about the parents. It's about law enforcement and their

609
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: ability to get to the bottom of what happened here.

610
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: Ten month old baby Lisa last seen in her crib,

611
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: according to her mother, then she simply vanished. Even to

612
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: this day, Lisa's parents still insists that they believe their

613
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: daughter is alive. Now. Police originally zero in on the mom,

614
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: Deborah Bradley, as a possible suspect, but the parents now

615
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: say they hold no grudges against the police. Why do

616
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: they focus on her? The dad, Jeremy, at work as

617
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 1: an electrician on an overnight shift, the mom drinking on

618
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: the front porch with neighbors the night baby Lisa goes mincing.

619
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: She eventually tells cops she didn't remember she checked on

620
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: the baby when she went to bed around ten forty

621
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 1: That starts our timeline when the baby was last seen

622
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 1: by her at sixt reminder, she has passed a lie

623
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: detect her test. Now, let me understand that Jacqueline Haller,

624
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 1: did anyone else see the baby at six forty pm?

625
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: Other than the mother. Nothing I'm aware of. No, the

626
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 1: boys and the boys' statements whenever they might have told police,

627
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 1: they have not been made public. So if the boys

628
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: have said that they've seen her, that information has not

629
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 1: been released. The moment Jeremy Irwin gets home at for

630
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: a m he says he finds the front door unlocked

631
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: and Lisa missing from her crib. He immediately calls nine

632
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: on one. Now here's another fact. To private investigator, former

633
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,240
Speaker 1: cop Vincent Hill, the family reports three of their cell

634
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: phones were also missing from the home. Nothing else was taken.

635
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: What does that mean, Nanthew? Could mean that whoever did

636
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: this didn't want the family to have any outside communication,

637
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: at least for a while until they got out of

638
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: the area. You know, it's unclear why those were taken,

639
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: but that we can only speculate that that could have

640
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: been one of the reasons. Now, this is what we

641
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 1: know about the missing cell phones. They were paying close

642
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: to the Irwin home and they were accessed throughout the

643
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: night Lisa went missing. What does that really mean? They

644
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: were accessed throughout the night that Lisa went missing to

645
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: missy rest Musa. What does that mean they were pinged

646
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: throughout the night they were UM paying that night, UM.

647
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: And after that night there was no more you know, um,

648
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: you know contact with those phones. UM. And there were

649
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: numerous attempts through the evening, UM to access the voicemail,

650
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: to access the internet, and to make okay, hold on,

651
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 1: wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute. So

652
00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: somebody during the night, and this isn't I that the

653
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: mom says she's asleep, the dad's at work, someone was

654
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 1: accessing the voicemail or trying to access the voicemail, attempting

655
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 1: to attempting to Yes, the phones were did they get in?

656
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: They were only suspended service Jacqueline heller Way in the

657
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: phones were they attempted to but there was like a

658
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 1: restriction due to non payment, where the phones could receive

659
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: a phone call, but they could not call out. Okay,

660
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 1: So somebody was trying to get into the voicemail of

661
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 1: the phones. So are you telling me you could call

662
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: the phone itself and leave a message, or you could

663
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: you could not use the You could call the phone

664
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: and the person could answer, but the person could not

665
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: make an outgo and call on the phone due to

666
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 1: being suspended for non payments. So let me understand this.

667
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: You're saying somebody tried to get into the voicemail and

668
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: could not, or they did get into the voicemail, they

669
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: did not, they attempted, and it was they did not

670
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: were not able to get to see That's infusing to me,

671
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: Mark Class because why would anybody else want to listen

672
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: to the mom's voicemail? Well, it's confusing to me as well.

673
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: I think one thing it tells us, though, that this

674
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,240
Speaker 1: is not an international conspiracy and this is not a

675
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: criminal mastermind. That whatever happened to little baby Lisa originated

676
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: in and around that community itself. That it may have

677
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 1: been a crime of well it wasn't a crime of opportunity,

678
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: but it uh, it may have been planned out to

679
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: some level. But we're not talking about rocket scientists here,

680
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: and there should have been enough information to be able

681
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: to move this investigation forward more quickly than it has.

682
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out what they mean by the

683
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: cell phones were pained throughout the night around the Irwin home.

684
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: What does that mean, Jacqueline Heller. The fans are paying

685
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: less than a mile and a half away from the

686
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: Irwin's home, so we know when the phones were taken.

687
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: They weren't taken very far because they were pinned one

688
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: point one miles away from the Irwin's house. Wow, that

689
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:12,240
Speaker 1: is very precise. We also know police issue an amber

690
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: alert very quickly, releasing pictures of Lisa are big blue

691
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: eyes staring at the camera. Cops combed fields near the home,

692
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:25,240
Speaker 1: they drained wells, They even searched neighbors homes looking for Lisa.

693
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: The media immediately became involved in information was coming out daily,

694
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 1: the pinging information the cadaver dog now one tip provoked

695
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 1: a lot of interest in regarded a handyman named Jersey Joe.

696
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: He had a criminal record, He worked in the neighborhood.

697
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: To Jacqueline Hellard, what did we learn about John Jersey

698
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: Joe Tanko. He was a handyman. He worked odd jobs

699
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: for cash in the neighborhood. He was staying at a

700
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 1: house around the corner from the Irwin's. He was ten

701
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 1: to um that homeowners one um. In two thousand and nine,

702
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: he had a classy felony burglary for which she was

703
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: incarcerated for three years. And in two thousand and eleven

704
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: he was um incarcerated for five years for tampering with

705
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: the motor motor vehicle registration like get I think, like

706
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: changing the plates or something like that. But he's he

707
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: was cleared. As the fact that he was cleared, I

708
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: think because he did not match the description of the

709
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: guy saying carrying the baby. We also know Jeremy the

710
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: father says he finds a pushed in windows screen at

711
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: the front of the home. To Vincent Hill, private investigator,

712
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 1: that is significant to me. The door is a lot.

713
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: The window screen at the front of the home is

714
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 1: pushed in. Mommy passes a line detector test. We've got

715
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: to start our timeline at six forty. She doesn't know

716
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: whether she checked on the baby before she went to

717
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: bed or not, So the timeline must start at six forty,

718
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: when she is visibly on the front porch and the

719
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: husband is gone and the baby is alone in the home.

720
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: I personally think, since the mom has been apparently cleared,

721
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: that baby Lisa's kidnap happened after the mom went to sleep. Vincent,

722
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: But I want to go back to that pushian screen.

723
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: What about it, Vincent? Yeah, it's highly suspicious, Nancy, But

724
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: I would actually say the timeline needs to go back

725
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: even a little bit before, just so you can capture anything,

726
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: because what I would do as an investigator, talked to neighbors,

727
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: did you see anyone around the home at that time?

728
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: Even the neighbor she was on the porch drinking with Hey,

729
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: did you see anything suspicious? You know, in the six

730
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: o'clock time frame six thirty, So you gotta take that

731
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: time frame a little further back so you can get

732
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: the whole picture. We are looking back over the evidence

733
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 1: and where you're learning about a police affidavit that explains

734
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 1: why investigators removed carpet from the home, brought in equipment

735
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: to X ray the walls and the floors, spent hours

736
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: digging in the home's backyard, and restricted news helicopters from

737
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: videotaping overhead. Court affidavit's point to a search that took

738
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 1: place two days before, a sixteen hour search. During that search,

739
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 1: investigators find a garden area with portions of dirt having

740
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: an appearance of recently being disturbed or overturned. This after

741
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: an FBI cadaver dog was brought into the home with

742
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: the family's consent and hit on the scent of a

743
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 1: dead human in an area of the Bradley's bedroom floor

744
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: near the bed items were taken from the home, including

745
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: a comforter, purple shorts, a glow worm toy, a blanket

746
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: from the Cars movie, rolls of tape, a Disney t shirt,

747
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 1: a tape dispenser. We know that all of that happened,

748
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: contrary to what we've been told about a shotting investigation.

749
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: This is what the affidavits show Mark Class. One of

750
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 1: the things that really complicates this nancy is the fact

751
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: that when children are kidnapped from their homes, they're almost

752
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: always middle They're all always middle school aged girls, and

753
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: they're taken for reasons of sexual perversion. The idea that

754
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: somebody's going to take a little one year old baby

755
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: and everything that goes around that a child that totally

756
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: needs seven care is rather hard to fathom unless the

757
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 1: baby was being taken um to give to somebody who

758
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: felt they needed a baby, or perhaps a person that

759
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:02,280
Speaker 1: took itself that But nothing adds up, You know, nothing

760
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 1: adds up in this investigation. Well, I can't get away

761
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: from uh completely unrelated witnesses observing a man carrying a

762
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 1: baby that day in the neighborhood, and that baby has

763
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: never been able to be tracked. I can't ignore that.

764
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: I also cannot ignore a cadaver dog hitting in the home.

765
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: So those are two very different scenarios. But again, you know,

766
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 1: what what do you what emphasis do you place Ashley

767
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,359
Speaker 1: Willcot on the fact mob did pass that lie detector

768
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: I do believe in lie detector tests, so that's great

769
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: that she passed it, but it, you know, it also

770
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 1: boils down to what exactly did they ask in that test,

771
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: where there are questions that were unasked, or does she

772
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: know pieces of information they neglected to ask about. I

773
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: think you have to look at the details of that.

774
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: The other thing is I'm gonna agree with Mark absolutely

775
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:01,240
Speaker 1: somebody knows what happened. Somebody knows the situation, and often

776
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: on cold cases, eventually someone says something. That's how we

777
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: find out what really happens to these kids. I think

778
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: that could happen in this case. We don't know what

779
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: all she was asked on that lie detector test. So

780
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: we also know to Dr Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologists

781
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 1: that the parents, the mother and the father, both signed

782
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: consent forms to allow searches of their home, their shed,

783
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: their cars, their work van, their computer, their camper, that

784
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 1: they gave police access to their property. You know, very

785
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: often families don't do that, they don't let people search

786
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: their property or their homes, and that immediately makes me suspicious.

787
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: In this case, they did allow police to do all

788
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,399
Speaker 1: of that. Well, that's true, I mean there's I think

789
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 1: that's partly what's so confusing about the situation is because

790
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: they're there do seem to be maybe some mixed signals

791
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,720
Speaker 1: um and the part of the parents, But like you said, Nancy,

792
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 1: it would be a total road flag. It would make

793
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 1: anybody completely suspicious if the parents refused to allow that search.

794
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: So I would consider that, as you're saying, really kind

795
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: of just a basic display of collaboration. That's really about

796
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: all I would read into that personally. What about him

797
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 1: our class? Well, I think she's exactly right, and they

798
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: made so many mistakes in the way that they dealt

799
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: with this, both publicly in the media and with law enforcement,

800
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: that suspicion is going to just continue to fall back

801
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: on them, although I think at this point in time

802
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: it's pretty clear that they are not responsible for the

803
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: disappearance of their own child. And I also want to

804
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 1: point out that some of the as you call them,

805
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 1: mistakes were at the advice of a lawyer, a lawyer

806
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 1: telling them, Hey, they're looking at you. They think you

807
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: harm the baby. You better clam up unless you want

808
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 1: to go to jail for life. You're gonna get framed

809
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: on this. I mean, when you come up on two

810
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 1: ordinary working class people like all of us, and you've

811
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: got a high price lawyer telling you to be quiet,

812
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 1: you do it. I mean, am I missing something in

813
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: that scenario? To Ashley Wilcott, I don't think you are

814
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: at all. The search for baby Lisa goes on Mark Class,

815
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: founder of Class Kids Way, and where do you think

816
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: the investigation stands now? Well, it's an open investigation and

817
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: hopefully it hasn't gone totally cold. I agree with the

818
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: parents that baby Lisa could still very much be alive.

819
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: The idea that somebody would take a little one year

820
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 1: old girl simply to murder her is very, very difficult

821
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 1: to fathom on any level. And we have to remember Um,

822
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: we have to remember Elizabeth Smart, we have to remember J. C. Dugard,

823
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: we have to remember Mitchy Sanchez, those girls that were

824
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 1: taken and after an extended period of time, we're found

825
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 1: and we're brought back home. Hopefully the new age progression.

826
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: Picture that was just put out is going to jar

827
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: somebody's memory and help us bring this case to the

828
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: resolution that everybody hopes, which is a reunification of little

829
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: baby Lisa with her family. That is the prayer of

830
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: all of us. Take a listen to Baby Lisa's parents

831
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:16,320
Speaker 1: just in the knees. I just picture holding her and

832
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 1: getting to know her, um, letting her get to know us,

833
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:31,359
Speaker 1: and catching up and bringing our family back together. She's

834
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: got to be out in public at some point. Somebody's

835
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: gonna see something that doesn't quite add up, and I

836
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: hope that that's, you know, what makes them make the

837
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: phone call and brings Lisa home. There is still a

838
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand dollar reward for information leading to the

839
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: recovery of Baby Lisa. Tipline eight one six four seven

840
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 1: four tips t i PS repeat eight one six four

841
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 1: seven four eight four seven seven. Nancy Grace Crime Stories

842
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 1: signing off Goodbye friend,