1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:00,880 Speaker 1: Oh, man. 2 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 2: So it turns out, back in the day in the 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 2: Vietnam Wars, the US call it, a lot of people 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 2: got sick, didn't understand why, and allegations about poisoning continue today. 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: This is a heck of a classic episode, dude. 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 3: Have either of you guys seen the movie Jacob's Ladder 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 3: starring what is it? 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 4: No? Geez? Who's in that? Tim Robbins. 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 3: It's a very very cool, kind of psychedelic, kind of 10 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 3: messed up actually, a sci fi movie about Vietnam and 11 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 3: some potential Agent Orange esque experiments that take place and 12 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 3: lead to some pretty messed up things happening in the 13 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 3: lives of these individuals. But oftentimes, you know, reality is 14 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 3: stranger than fiction and and scarier because yeah, this was 15 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 3: a thing, man. 16 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 4: It was just a set of herbicides. Guys, what's the 17 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 4: big deal? 18 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? What's a neo nikotinoid ever done wrong? Aside from 19 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: killing all the bees? We were right about that part too. 20 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: What's going on on with depleted uranium? Right, what's the 21 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: deal with white phosphorus? What's the deal with Agent Worrinch? 22 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 4: Let's find out. 23 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is 24 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 25 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. 26 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 27 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 4: my name is Noah. 28 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 2: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with 29 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 2: our super producer Paul Decant. Most importantly, you are you, 30 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: and you are here, and that makes this stuff they 31 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: don't want you to know. We can open with a 32 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 2: question today, I guess for the table. Have any of 33 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: us had relatives involved in the Vietnam War? 34 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 4: I do not believe I did. Honestly, If I do, 35 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 4: I am unaware of it. 36 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: Paul, do you have any relatives in that conflict? Also? 37 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 4: No? 38 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: Three nos. That's interesting, Ben, Yeah, Well, being from a 39 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: military background, it's somebody, yeah, yeah, multiple members of my family. 40 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: The reason we open this episode today with this question 41 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: is because our episode touches on the Vietnam War. It's 42 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: not really just about the war, it's about something different. 43 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 2: The Vietnam War is the last conflict in which Uncle 44 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: Sam conscripted actual civilians. So some of us listening to 45 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: the show today may have at some point been drafted, 46 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,399 Speaker 2: sent to a country that you were radically unfamiliar with, 47 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 2: and told that you were playing a vital part, if 48 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: a small part, a vital part in a greater fight. 49 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: We our country intervened in the activities of foreign nations 50 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 2: to support a larger geo political war against communism. 51 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was that one time we interfered with another 52 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 4: country's inner workings. 53 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: At one time. 54 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 4: Right. 55 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: And the thing about modern war is that it drives 56 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: technological innovation. There's no two ways about it, and the 57 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 2: Vietnam War was no exception to this rule. During this conflict, 58 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:27,399 Speaker 2: the US pioneered numerous pieces of technology that we now 59 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 2: see today in the civilian sphere. Some of these innovations 60 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: were entirely innocuous. They were medical breakthroughs, right, And some 61 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: were really far out things that even today sound like 62 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 2: crazy science fiction novel ideas far out, like Surfer far out, yeah, 63 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: even further, even further from sure. 64 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. And weather manipulation is one of those things. 65 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: Right, which we talked about, which was surprisingly a real thing. 66 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: I think that baffled all of us. There was another 67 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: innovation in this war which might surprise some people. It 68 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: was the widespread use of herbicide as a weapon, which 69 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 2: which is nuts. Right. Planes swept across the Mekong Delta 70 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: dropping weed killer instead of bombs. 71 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 4: Oh there were bombs too, There were also bombs, but 72 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 4: there was a lot of weed killer. 73 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: And this weed killer is known today by the name 74 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 2: agent Orange. In decades and decades after it was deployed 75 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: there in Southeast Asia, we as a species are still 76 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: trying to figure out exactly how it affected us. But 77 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 2: let's start with the facts here. They are. What is 78 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 2: agent orange? 79 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,559 Speaker 3: Oh, man, I'm gonna butcher this pronunciation, but I'm gonna 80 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 3: try it is something called a defolian, A defoliant nailed. Yeah, 81 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 3: I guess it wasn't as hard as I made it 82 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 3: out to be. 83 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 4: Thanks for the ataboy, though, guys, I appreciate it. 84 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 3: So yeah, a plant killer, like you said, so, this 85 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 3: is a combination of various herbicides, but it was the 86 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 3: most famous used in the Vietnam War, when the US 87 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 3: dispersed it across entire areas of the country in order 88 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 3: to remove plant cover. 89 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:10,239 Speaker 4: You know those tree lines. 90 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 5: They're always talking about Charlie's hiding in the tree line. 91 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 3: And all that. 92 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 4: You know. I remember hearing that movies. That's in movies. 93 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 4: They wanted to get rid of that. 94 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 3: I guess, so they had more visibility of the potential 95 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 3: awaiting enemies. 96 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 4: Yea. And there are big problems with naval ships where 97 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 4: there would be tree lines right along the water and 98 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 4: combatants would hide there with various munitions, and this was 99 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 4: one of the reasons, one of the main reasons they 100 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 4: wanted to use Asian orange or any of the herbicides. 101 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, good point met, because that's scene in Apocalypse 102 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: Now where the boat is going up the river. Yeah, 103 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff really did happen. And you make 104 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: an excellent point about the other herbicides because we always 105 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: hear about agent orange. Agent orange was called this or 106 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 2: sometimes called orange too. 107 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 4: That whole family. 108 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it had a whole family, a whole spectrum 109 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: of colors. It was called agent orange due to the 110 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: orange markings on the barrels it was shipped in. But 111 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: there were other colors too. There was Agent blue, denoted 112 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: by the blue markings. Still a herbicide, a little bit different, 113 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 2: But we can get into the chemistry of agent orangetty 114 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 2: pretty easily. We can do a high level. Look, we're 115 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: not chemist. 116 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 3: Do you guys know why they called the Vietcong Charlie. 117 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 3: I just looked this up to make sure I wasn't 118 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 3: accidentally being racist. Please tell us VC Victor Charlie Viet 119 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: comm Charlie. 120 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 5: There you go, boom today innocuous AF. 121 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 4: So that's really interesting. Had no idea. Oh no, that's great. 122 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 4: So let's get into what exactly this stuff is. Agent 123 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 4: orange is equal parts to chemicals, and these are both herbicides. 124 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 4: The first one you can just call it T four 125 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 4: dash D and that's T comma four dash D that's 126 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 4: dichlora finoxy acidic acid. And the second one is T 127 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 4: comma four comma fivesh T or T four five T 128 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 4: that's trichloro finoxy acidic acid. Now, so it's just two 129 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 4: of these orbicides equal parts mixed together you get agent orange. 130 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: And were these were these common beforehand? 131 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 4: Yeah? These were pretty common in the United States. They 132 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 4: were used the separate chemicals, not agent orange itself, the 133 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,239 Speaker 4: combination of them. But yeah, the separate chemicals were common 134 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 4: in the United States. 135 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 2: And during the manufacture of what which one of these ingredients, 136 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: it's the T four five T okay, the trichloral yes, yeah, 137 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 2: so during the manufacture of that, another chemical is produced. 138 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 4: Right, Yes, small amounts of something called TCDD. You're ready 139 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 4: for this, here's the last one. 140 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: You got it? 141 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 4: Two three seven eight tetrachloro divenzo dioxin. And it's also 142 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 4: referred to as. 143 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: Dioxin dioxin, and it's formed as a byproduct. It's considered 144 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 2: a contamination in its own way. It is an unwanted growth, 145 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: very similar to a weed. 146 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 4: There you go, oh, a weed within the herbicide. 147 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: But what is it really? I'm so glad you asked. 148 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: It's crazy. So it's what. It's a kind of thing 149 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 2: called a persistent organic pollutant. There are multiple forms of dioxin. 150 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: When we say persistent organic pollutant, the key word there 151 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: is persistent. Once these things get into something, they tend 152 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 2: to stay. According to the EPA, dioxins are not made commercially, 153 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: nor are they sold in the US, at least they're 154 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: not supposed to be. There are several hundred different versions 155 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 2: of this substance we call dioxin, but they generally fall 156 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: under the same three chemical families. Oh no, it's my 157 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 2: turn now, is okay? 158 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 4: All right? 159 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: Chlorinated die benzo p dioxians. There you go, chlorinated die 160 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: benzofurans or CDFs and some polychlorinated bifenels PCBs, which you 161 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 2: may have heard a long time ago on a previous episode. 162 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you've almost certainly heard of PCBs before. That's 163 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 4: one of those common chemical compounds. You actually hear PCBs, Like, 164 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 4: this is without PCBs. We stopped using. 165 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: Those, do health concerns, right exactly? A little bit of foreshadow? 166 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 3: Is that the stuff that's an im thinking of BPA? 167 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, different, but only the crinkly ones. 168 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I remember peak behind the curtain, folks. I 169 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 2: remember a few years ago, Matt, you first told me 170 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: about BPAs. I was microwaving something in a plastic like 171 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: a plastic container, a TopWare kind of thing. 172 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was one that you generally put 173 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 4: in a microwave. 174 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: And then when I was convinced that I was going 175 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 2: to it, I was convinced it was all over for me. 176 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 2: It's like, here comes the cancer. 177 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 4: I mean, we're all full of it already. There's nothing 178 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 4: you can do. We exist in twenty eighteen. 179 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're riddled with it. In the nineteen seventies, we 180 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 2: didn't have the same awareness of what the consequences of 181 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 2: exposure to these sorts of chemicals could be and dioxin 182 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 2: in particular, which on its own looks like these little 183 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 2: white crystalline needles, is chemically speaking, a Samuel L. Jackson 184 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 2: level bad. I mean, we're a family show. What should 185 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 2: I say, guys? 186 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 5: M Murpher Murpher nailed it. 187 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: Yes, it's a bad Murpher it because the accent can 188 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: cause cancer, reproductive problems, developmental disorders. It can also wreak 189 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: just train wrecked levels of damage on hormones and the 190 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 2: immune system. Agent Orange was meant to be what's called 191 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 2: a rainbow defoliant, meaning that it didn't specifically target get 192 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 2: one type of plant. It targeted everything. Yes, and this 193 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 2: means that as a weapon of war, Agent Orange was 194 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: from the get go, from deployment, meant to do more 195 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 2: than I think the American public believed. We were told. 196 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: It was to increase visibility, as you said, Noel, and 197 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: to remove undergrowth in which the enemy forces could hide. 198 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 2: But it's behind the curtain use, which was sort of 199 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: an open secret that unfortunately a lot of voters did 200 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 2: not know at the time. It's behind the curtain use 201 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 2: was much more sinister. It was meant to destroy crops, 202 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: depriving enemy combatants and civilians of food, and a lot 203 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 2: of these people at that time, in the rural parts 204 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: of the country are subsistence farmers. 205 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 4: It was a tactic to starve everybody out. 206 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 2: And we started tracing the evolution of agent orange from 207 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 2: its orangein point Oh God, I'm so sorry to its deployment. 208 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: The US exhibited interest in this concept weaponized herbicides way 209 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 2: way before the Vietnam War. In nineteen forty three, the 210 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: Army contacted the University of Chicago and asked them for 211 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 2: some data on the potential of herbicides too. It is important. 212 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: This was their original question to the University of Chicago. Specifically, 213 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: they asked for data to prove whether or not herbicides 214 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: could destroy enemy crops. Yeah, that less sinister idea about 215 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 2: removing forest cover. 216 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 4: That comes later, Yeah, I mean it is. It's interesting 217 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 4: how there was such a problem with forest cover during 218 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 4: the Vietnam conflict that it also made sense to use 219 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 4: this product that destroyed crops. And wonder if that was 220 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 4: just I was getting knuck. I was gonna say, happy 221 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 4: accident is not a happy accident. But they just happened 222 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 4: to coincide with what they needed. But that's really messed up, 223 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 4: So that's nineteen forty three. 224 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they continued. They moved pretty quickly on the concept. 225 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: They first tested the idea of weaponized herbicides in nineteen 226 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: forty four in Orlando, Florida. 227 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 3: I have to say, this idea of herbicidal warfare is 228 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 3: fascinating to me and not something I would typically think 229 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 3: of as weaponized herbicides. 230 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. 231 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's strange, isn't it. And they tested at first, 232 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 2: they were just seeing what sort of poisonous stuff could 233 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,359 Speaker 2: do the job, So they tested ammonium thiosinate, zinc chloride, 234 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 2: sodium nitrate, sodium rsenate, and sodium fluoride, which I we know, 235 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 2: fellow conspiracy realists will already make some people's years per cup. 236 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 2: But the tipping point doesn't her until nineteen forty five 237 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: during something called Project Sphinx. 238 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 5: So Project Sphinx was conducted at Fort Knox. 239 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 3: That Fort Knox and the United States government investigated the 240 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 3: use of chemical agents in making vegetation more flammable. 241 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 4: It seems like it would be flammable enough as it is, but. 242 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 3: Before a flame attack and agent orange and napalm. Napalm's 243 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 3: a scary one. Are the descendants of this particular research. 244 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 3: So the US continued to develop and test Agent orange 245 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 3: from forty six to fifty one domestically. 246 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the first use of this crazy cocka made. 247 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 2: The idea of herbicidal warfare comes from Britain in the 248 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties. They cleared areas of the jungle in Malaysia 249 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: of vegetation if they were close to roadways. They wanted 250 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: to prevent ambushes by well, they called them communist guerrillas. 251 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: Other people called them freedom fighters. And many of the 252 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 2: people there just saw themselves as locals. 253 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, or your family and friends. Also, the Britain didn't 254 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 4: call that a war. No, it's kind of familiar for 255 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 4: you know, for a long time it was the Vietnam conflict. 256 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 4: Or I guess that's kind of changed the Vietnam conflict. 257 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 4: It's been the Vietnam War, but he was never declared 258 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 4: a war by Congress. 259 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 2: True True Facts. In an internal memo from nineteen fifty two, 260 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 2: the agricultural giant Monsanto informed the US Army Chemical Corps 261 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: that the herbicide that you had mentioned earlier MATT two 262 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: four five T the try one, the try one, the 263 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: trichloral one, was contaminated with dioxin during the production process. 264 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 4: So nineteen fifty two they knew, they knew. 265 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: And accidental overheating of the reaction mixture caused this product, 266 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: this herbicide to condense into this dioxin. Dioxen, just for 267 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: a frame of difference, is one hundred and fifty thousand 268 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: times more toxic than arsenic, the poison arsenic, the very 269 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: famous poison arsenic. Jeez, yep, sorry. 270 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 3: I'm just making big googly eyes right now. You can't 271 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 3: hear because this is an audio show. But I just 272 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 3: that is an insane number to be more toxic than 273 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 3: the thing that we already know is being quite bloody toxic. 274 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, more toxic than possibly the most famous poison in history. 275 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: The US began using herb besides in what nineteen sixty 276 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: one and something that was originally named Operation Hades but 277 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 2: got changed to a less sinister sounding. 278 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 4: Name, Operation ranch Hand. 279 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 5: Ah, that sounds like some good old corn fat operation. 280 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 4: There, boys, I'm just a ranch hand, you know. I 281 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 4: get the horses all, you know, get them back around. 282 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 4: That's pretty much what I do take care of. Do 283 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 4: you hit them up? Hitch up horses to the post, 284 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 4: feeding bags you know. 285 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 3: Now, well that seems a lot more innocuous than Operation 286 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 3: Hell on Earth. 287 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 4: And also drop a ton of stuff on the viet CONK. 288 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 2: Sorry, we're not gonna use it was a dramatic reenact, 289 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 2: but I think the soul of it is completely accurate. 290 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 2: Over twenty million gallons of these herbicides, these various agents 291 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 2: were sprayed across Vietnam but also across Cambodia and Laos, 292 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: and for most of the war, Operation Ranch Hand was 293 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 2: based at the Bingha Air Base, which I am surely mispronouncing. 294 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: Apologies to all Vietnamese speakers. They were using this airbase 295 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: because they wanted to mainly conduct spraying operations across the 296 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 2: Mekong Delta because, as we have mentioned earlier, patrol boats 297 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 2: were vulnerable to attacks from the undergrowth, and the primary 298 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: aircraft used for this were C one two threes. That'll 299 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 2: be important later because we'll have to ask ourselves what 300 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 2: happened to those planes? 301 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 4: Yeah one O. Their just little side note there is 302 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 4: that Asian orange was also common or these these agents 303 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 4: were common to be sprayed around military bases and outposts, 304 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 4: and you'll see images online if you search for it 305 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 4: of soldiers in these trucks that are just spraying. You 306 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 4: can see them just spraying these huge swaths of this. 307 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 4: It looks like it looks orange, but I think some 308 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,479 Speaker 4: of them have maybe been doctored a little bit. But 309 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 4: it's just it's a chemical agent. They're spraying everywhere around 310 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 4: the bases. 311 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 2: Sure, just like you know, just like an exterminator or 312 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: someone applying pesticide with those little buckets and those spray nozzles, 313 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 2: you guys remember those. 314 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, is not a much much much larger scale, exactly. 315 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 2: And so here we are with Vietnam and with the 316 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 2: use of this herbicide, not just on enemy vegetation, but 317 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: on vegetation, as you said, surrounding military bases post. But 318 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: as we mentioned before, agent Orange is not the only 319 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 2: crayon in the box. We'll tell you a little bit 320 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 2: more about the other agents in the field after a 321 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 2: word from our sponsor. 322 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 4: And we're back. So we got orange in one corner. 323 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 4: Let's talk about the rest of the group that we've 324 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,959 Speaker 4: got here. The agent Orange, that name is just a 325 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 4: code name referring to the color of the band that's 326 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 4: around this giant fifty five gallon drum that contained the 327 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 4: chemical and when it was shipped over to Laos or 328 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 4: Vietnam or Cambodia wherever they were in these giant drums, 329 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 4: and they would sit somewhere and then until they get 330 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 4: loaded up onto whatever plane they're going to be on 331 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 4: or truck. And the other code names were Agent, white, blue, purple, pink, 332 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 4: and green. 333 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 2: Sounded more and more like reservoir dogs. 334 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 4: That's exactly what it sounds like to me. Dude, does 335 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 4: anybody listening out there? Do you know if that was 336 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,959 Speaker 4: a reference the reservoir dogs was actually a reference to 337 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 4: these agents, That would be fascinating to know, because it 338 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 4: sounds very similar. I don't know what we're missing here, 339 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 4: which color we're missing, But anyway, I left to ask Chuck. 340 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 4: He just did an episode with Broken Lizard about reservoir dogs. 341 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Chuck Charles W. Bryant from Stuff you Should Know, 342 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: who is also the host of movie Crush, where you 343 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: can hear our compatriot Noll popping in. 344 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 4: That's right, I do do the occasional pop in. 345 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 3: Internet says no Ah, all right, Internet. 346 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 4: No connect, thanks thanks a lot. 347 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 2: We'll have to text Quinton and ask him. So. From 348 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty two to sixty five, they actually were not 349 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 2: using Agent orange, is that correct? 350 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 4: Correct? They started out with purple, pink, and green. Here's 351 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 4: the deal, the problem. All three of these were contaminated 352 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 4: with what are they called tcdds or dioxin. 353 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 2: Right, and these were supply by Monsanto and the Dow 354 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: Chemical Company. And let's take a second to talk about 355 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 2: Agent purple. Okay, Agent purple was sprayed just indiscriminately across 356 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 2: the area. One point nine million leaders were sprayed between 357 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 2: that period we mentioned sixty two to sixty five. Unfortunately, 358 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 2: it was later determined that Agent Purple had the highest 359 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: concentration of dioxin in comparison to the other these other 360 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 2: mixtures pink and green. 361 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 4: Wow, so really this episode should be called Agent Purple. Well, no, 362 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 4: it's not true because Agent orange was sprayed a whole 363 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 4: lot more. 364 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. From sixty five to seventy they 365 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 2: switched to Agent's orange, white and blue, and then in 366 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: what was it, nineteen seventy, they stopped using agent orange. 367 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 4: Yes, and we'll get into why they stopped using Agent 368 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 4: orange a little bit later on the show. But that's 369 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 4: that's around the time seventy to seventy one, all right. 370 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 2: Still, the facts are the facts, and the facts do 371 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 2: not have opinions. Chemicals contaminated with this substance dioxin were 372 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 2: used in the area from sixty two to nineteen seventy, 373 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: and they sprayed a bunch of it everywhere. 374 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, the estimates and these might have changed by now. 375 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 4: The research we got from this is several years old. 376 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 4: But the estimated amount of dioxin sprayed over Vietnam and 377 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 4: all of that time was around three hundred and sixty 378 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 4: eight pounds of it. Wow. Now, I know that sounds 379 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 4: like a kind of low number, three hundred and sixty 380 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 4: eight pounds overall if you're talking about these large land 381 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 4: masses and everything. But when you realize that agent orange, 382 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 4: the dioxin contamination within it was only zero point zero 383 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 4: five to fifty parts per million, that's pretty much the 384 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 4: range that you got in parts per million. And they 385 00:22:53,520 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 4: sprayed twenty million gallons. It's kind of crazy. Twenty million 386 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 4: gallons of herbicide. It doesn't necessarily mean agent orange. 387 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 2: I see what you're saying. It's important. But even if 388 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 2: we say, okay, it's not like they were spraying pure dioxin, right. 389 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 2: The point is that Overall, over four million soldiers had 390 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 2: some kind of contact with this substance, specifically with agent orange, 391 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 2: and this number is only for the US side. When 392 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 2: we were doing research on this, one thing that we 393 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: found to be strange was that a lot of the 394 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 2: emphasis on exposure to this only follow the US side. 395 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 2: They don't follow the millions of civilians who were affected 396 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 2: by this spray and were almost certainly not informed of 397 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 2: it before or after. 398 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 4: When you think about if they're targeting crops and that 399 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 4: land that would eventually in the future be used to 400 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 4: plant crops again that now has this persistent chemical in 401 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 4: the soil, it's no good. 402 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 2: And the government knew, at least the US knew. By 403 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty three, the US Army and President Kennedy, the 404 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 2: Kennedy administration knew this stuff was capable of screwing up 405 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: humans just as much as plants. The Dow Chemical Company 406 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 2: wrote to the Secretary of Defense at the time and 407 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 2: assured him that's Robert McNamara assured him that two four 408 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 2: five T that's the trichloral one. That's the one, that's 409 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: the one was safe for use. 410 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 4: So nice things. 411 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 2: Dal don't worry about this data. 412 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 4: We assure you our government contract stands. 413 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 2: Everything is fine. 414 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 3: And then in nineteen sixty seven, the Department of Defense 415 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 3: set up a contract with Kansas City based Midwest Research 416 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 3: Institute to dig a little deeper and give a comprehensive 417 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 3: analysis of extensive or repeated uses of herbicides. 418 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 4: Herbicides. 419 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 2: Is it a hard Ah, I go with herbicides. 420 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's better. I'm not English, you know. 421 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 5: Heubsibs, and phillots. 422 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 4: Here's what they found. 423 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 3: And now will quote if I may, the possibility of 424 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 3: lethal toxicity to humans is highly unlikely and should not 425 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 3: be a matter of deep concern. 426 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 4: Now that quote is there's some ellipses in there. Yeah, 427 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 4: but still that's the main point. Don't matter. 428 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 2: Hey, hey, it's cool. 429 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 4: It's cool. Chill, And hence the cover up. 430 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 5: There's always a cover up. 431 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 2: The cover up begins nowadays. It's no secret that these 432 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 2: substances are harmful to human beings. People exposed to agent 433 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 2: orange or any of those other color coded agents will 434 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: have a higher risk of exhibiting the symptoms we had 435 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, some of the symptoms of exposure. But there 436 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: is something else in play. The cover up didn't stop 437 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 2: in the fifties while they were developing this and in 438 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 2: the seventies when they were deploying it. The cover up 439 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 2: continues some we'll say, because there's something else to agent orange, 440 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 2: something that could affect you, Yes, specifically you today if 441 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 2: you are descended from anyone who is exposed to herbicides 442 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 2: like agent orange in the past. Agent Orange, you see, 443 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 2: has left the legacy. Here's where it gets crazy. 444 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 4: This substance doesn't just affect the people that actually got 445 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 4: exposed to it, whether it was in the field that 446 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 4: they used to grow crops or on the battlefield. It 447 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,479 Speaker 4: affects their descendants as well. Well. 448 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 2: Okay, okay, okay, hard pause, Let's take a second to 449 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 2: think about just how insane that is. So that means 450 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: that if the four of us and if you listening, 451 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: were in Vietnam during this time, or you were exposed 452 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 2: to the substance somehow, we might not exhibit crazy symptoms, 453 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: but our kids and our grandkids very well could. Yeah, 454 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 2: which is insidious, you know. And in June and July 455 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty nine, Vietnamese newspapers began reporting on a 456 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 2: spike in birth defects. They specifically cited Sigon. Yeah, birth 457 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 2: defects in Saigon, and they blamed the deployment of Agent 458 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 2: Orange and the other members of the color coded poison pantheon. 459 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 2: Critics of the time say that Sigon couldn't have been 460 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 2: associated because Sigon was not directly sprayed. 461 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 4: Yeah it's way over here. 462 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is true. But they failed to consider the 463 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 2: flood of refugees that moved into the city after their 464 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 2: crops were destroyed. 465 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, I can no longer live on this land. I 466 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 4: have to go somewhere else. Now you're in Saigon, a 467 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 4: big city, and now all of your descendants are coming 468 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 4: down with problems. Right, Oh my gosh. 469 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, the consequences of exposure to agent orange no ideological boundary. 470 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 2: Children of veterans in the Vietnam conflict on the US side, 471 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 2: that were you know, the veterans that we're exposed to 472 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 2: this stuff, their kids have a thirty percent higher chance 473 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 2: of birth defects. And we're not talking you know, we're 474 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: not talking like a weird mole or something. We're talking 475 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 2: about things like leukemia. Yeah, extra limbs, life threatening stuff, Yeah, 476 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 2: missing limbs. And for decades, the Department of Veterans Affairs, 477 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 2: which for anyone outside of the US, it's commonly called 478 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 2: the VA here. That is a government organization which is 479 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: charged with healthcare, psychological care, job assistance, or employment assistance, 480 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 2: I guess, for veterans after they return from a conflict. 481 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 2: And it's a pretty controversial place. There are a lot 482 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 2: of concerns here in the States about how its affairs 483 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 2: are handled, how it is helping or neglecting to help 484 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 2: veterans after they leave military surface. 485 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 4: If you somehow have not seen them yet, you can 486 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 4: watch various episodes of The Daily Show and John Stewart 487 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 4: was helming it, or John Oliver's New Show on HBO 488 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 4: to really get into the nitty gritty of the VA issues. 489 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: Now, the VA has very high quality people working there, 490 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: many of whom are themselves veterans, right and they have 491 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 2: been collecting information from the veterans for years, even specific 492 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 2: questions about birth defects for decades. You can look at 493 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: a nineteen eighty two form from the VA where they 494 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 2: have a question that reads the following, is there evidence 495 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 2: of birth defects among veterans' children? The answers are one no, 496 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: two yes conceived after Vietnam service, three yes conceived before 497 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: Vietnam service. 498 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 4: Four. 499 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,959 Speaker 2: Yes, both before and after Vietnam service. 500 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 4: They don't have any for a conceived while in Vietnam service. 501 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 2: That is true. That gets you know again, and that 502 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: gets to the more myopic US centric focus of the 503 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 2: agent orange problem here in the US at least. So 504 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen, Pro Publica and a paper called The 505 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,719 Speaker 2: Virginian Pilot obtained this information from the VA, and they 506 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 2: made the problem public. Originally, government studies concluded that while 507 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,959 Speaker 2: veterans in the war did have a higher chance of 508 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 2: bearing children with birth defects, herbicide exposure was somehow not 509 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 2: the cause. Oh, like you said earlier in all, ah, 510 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 2: don't worry nothing, she is. 511 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, here we go. Yeah. If something like that came 512 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 4: out as public, it would not be good for anybody involved, 513 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 4: except for the victims. 514 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 2: Rights and the VA responded to this twenty sixteen analysis. 515 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 2: They said it was quote interesting and quote a step 516 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 2: in the right direction. They added that the VA believes 517 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 2: the research to understand the relationship between exposure and intergenerational 518 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 2: transmission of disease, if conducted, should be done where scientists 519 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: with expertise in the relevant fields of inquiry can provide leadership. 520 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 4: I'm sorry I fell asleep during that. What was the huh? 521 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 2: It means they said, we don't have a department that 522 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 2: is capable of studying this. 523 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 4: Oh, well, isn't that convenient? 524 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: They did say they would play a supporting role in 525 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 2: further investigation. 526 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 4: They did. Now we need to take one more quick 527 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 4: break from our sponsor. But when we get back, we're 528 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 4: going to talk about the full legacy of dioxin and 529 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 4: agent orange. 530 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 2: And we're back. It's still twenty eighteen, which means it 531 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 2: has been almost fifty years since the weaponized herbicides were 532 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 2: sprayed across this region. In those intervening years, veterans reported 533 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 2: some of the defects that we have mentioned earlier, missing limbs, 534 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 2: extra limbs, as you said, no life threatening conditions like leukemia, 535 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: and they furthermore said that these conditions did not occur 536 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 2: in their family before. You know, some some diseases or 537 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: conditions can run in certain families, not the case with 538 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 2: this stuff. And given our species new understanding of epigenetics, 539 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 2: the fascinating, somewhat disturbing realm. 540 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 4: Of stuff, fairly new field, fairly. 541 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 2: New field too. What is epigenetics, Well, it's the idea that. 542 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 4: Again I think we covered this before and didn't we 543 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 4: decide that it was there. There are several studies out 544 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 4: there about it, but it's not a conclusive thing yet. 545 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 4: But what we do have this understanding that when let's 546 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 4: say a mother goes through trauma at some point in 547 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 4: her life and then gives birth to a baby, that 548 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 4: trauma can somehow affect the way genes are expressed in 549 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 4: the baby. That's the idea, right right. 550 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 2: It affects what genetic expressions manifest, which genes are switched 551 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 2: on or off. And we saw some studies about the 552 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 2: descendants of people who were starved during World War Two. 553 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,959 Speaker 2: That's what it was, yeah, And how that and it 554 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: has a measurable effect. There is a compelling case, I 555 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: want to be careful here that it has a measurable 556 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 2: and significant effect on descendants. It appears that agent orange 557 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 2: may also be functioning under the same rules. The survivors 558 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 2: of the war can trace dioxin exposure to birth effects 559 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: in later generations. Again, this is sort of controversial. There 560 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 2: are researchers on the other side of the argument saying 561 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 2: that this is overblown, or even saying that it is 562 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 2: a cynical attempt to grab some cash on the part 563 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: of relatives of veterans or veterans themselves. Really, those are statements, Yeah, 564 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 2: those are statements that people are making. I mean, I 565 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 2: personally don't agree. That seems like a very roundabout way 566 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 2: to try to get federal money. 567 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. I think the position of defensive has kind of 568 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 4: just been the standard for anyone involved with the manufacturer 569 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,720 Speaker 4: or deployment these things. 570 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 2: And Vietnam veterans and their families attempted several times to 571 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 2: take this issue to court, but the case is eventually 572 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 2: lost momentum. 573 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 4: It's like a class action lawsuit at one point. 574 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, And arguably the research has yet 575 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: to bear a definitive link, but critics of those findings 576 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 2: think that there's something else to play. A brutal calculation, 577 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 2: that's right. 578 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 3: The va already spends billions of dollars on veterans, so 579 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 3: should it also pay for the medical needs of kids 580 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 3: bearing the scars of this war? 581 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 4: That's the question they're asking. 582 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 3: I suppose Mike Ryan, who's a Vietnam vet whose grandchildren 583 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 3: suffer from the effects of this exposure. 584 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 4: He believes that the. 585 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 3: Government will never admit the relationship between Asian orange and 586 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 3: these birth the effects because quote, if they do, then 587 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 3: America is admitting to drafting the unborn. 588 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,399 Speaker 2: That is I think the most powerful line in there. 589 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 2: And it's true. I mean, you can accuse the guy 590 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: of waxing poetic if you want, but it is accurate. 591 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 2: If these people who have no role in a war 592 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 2: that occurred before they were born, are suffering the consequences 593 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 2: of this right on both sides, both sides of the Pacific, 594 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 2: then aren't they How are they not being drafted? Yeah, 595 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,879 Speaker 2: and there is, of course, of course, there's a very 596 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 2: strong argument to make that people just didn't know what 597 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 2: would happen. But it's pretty compelling evidence that multiple researchers 598 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 2: knew this stuff was dangerous. Even if they did not 599 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 2: know how it could affect descendants of people exposed, they 600 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 2: did know that it had deletorious effects on people who 601 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 2: were directly exposed, and dioxin affected the US in other 602 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 2: ways as well. In nineteen eighty five, there was a 603 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: small town called Times Beach, Missouri. The roads were sprayed 604 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 2: with hexachlorophine that contained dioxin, and the town was disincorporated 605 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 2: because of the extremely dangerous amounts of dioxin that they 606 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 2: were exposed to. This stuff makes people obliterate towns. There's 607 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 2: no Times Beach, Missouri anymore. There's Route sixty six State 608 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,439 Speaker 2: Park where it used to be. So by the way, 609 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 2: folks watch where you picnic. 610 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, please don't eat any stres rawberries, even if they 611 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 4: look delicious and wild and you're like, oh man, those awesome. 612 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 4: I got to get some strawberries. Don't do it. Just 613 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 4: don't do it. I don't know if strawberries grow out there. 614 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 2: Well, it's a good idea just to donate anything out 615 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 2: there if you find it growing. And now, as we 616 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 2: as we conclude this episode, we unfortunately don't have a 617 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 2: happy ending. We have to quote the VA steps in 618 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 2: the right direction. Yeah, but we still don't know what 619 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 2: is going to happen to people who are exhibiting symptoms 620 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 2: based on their parents' exposure to these substances. And the 621 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 2: government here in the States continually says there will be 622 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 2: a serious investigation of the phenomenon, and a lot of 623 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 2: scientists are working ardently on investigating it. But veterans in 624 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,879 Speaker 2: their families feel there's little real progress toward admitting and 625 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 2: addressing the effects of this herbicide. And you can't really 626 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 2: blame them. 627 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm having such a hard time with this one. 628 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 4: You guys, let me she if I can work something 629 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 4: out here in my head while we just discuss it. 630 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:16,359 Speaker 4: I want to hear your thoughts. So it is so horrifying, 631 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 4: I think, I mean, horrifying just encapsulates everything about this. 632 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 4: But the thought that a country outside of an internal conflict, 633 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 4: which you know, the the Vietnam War, which was fought 634 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 4: between South Vietnam and North Vietnam over ideological differences, was 635 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 4: kind of their own battle. It was a battle that 636 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 4: was being fought way way over there. If you're sitting 637 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 4: in the continuous United States, and we intervened, and in 638 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 4: doing so, we caused horrors to generations to come for 639 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 4: people in South and North Vietnam. It's it's almost I'm 640 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 4: trying to imagine what it would be like. I'm making 641 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 4: some connection between France coming to the aid of the 642 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 4: United States during the Revolutionary War in some ways, but 643 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,399 Speaker 4: if France had come over and like sprayed chemicals all 644 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 4: across different fronts and then for generations, even though we 645 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 4: have in America now, it's just got it's just got 646 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,879 Speaker 4: birth effects all across it. I don't know. I don't 647 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 4: know if there's any connection there. I'm just it's just 648 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 4: it's horrifying to me. 649 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good point. Would what would a similar 650 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 2: comparison be, I don't know, And let us know if 651 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 2: there's a real life analog that you can recall, folks. Additionally, 652 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 2: it's important for us to say that it's incorrect and 653 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 2: it's missing the point to vilify people who were in 654 00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 2: the service at this time because these people, well, these 655 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,919 Speaker 2: military members were out there risking their lives right for 656 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 2: their country for a greater good, and they were often 657 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 2: just as exposed to the substance, you know what I mean. 658 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 4: Oh, if not more, having to load the stuff and 659 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 4: then get nozzles ready and get it in the planes. 660 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 4: And the people who are on the planes actually doing 661 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 4: the spraying are not the people who are going to understand, 662 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 4: you know, exactly what the health effects are of the substance. 663 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 4: It's just not how it's going to be. 664 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 2: And one more thing, those planes that we mentioned, the 665 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 2: C one two threes were destroyed shortly afterward, Oh to 666 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 2: remove the Well, people who think there was a cover 667 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,800 Speaker 2: up would say they were destroyed to remove the evidence 668 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 2: of the event, but you can't remove it from people's 669 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 2: genetic expression, you know what I mean? 670 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the you know the other thing, these see 671 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 4: one threes or whatever they are. If they had the 672 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 4: agent orange just all over it and inside of it 673 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 4: and going through the systems of the plane, would you 674 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 4: have to destroy it to not expose anybody else who's 675 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 4: going to be on that plane to dioxon? Because it 676 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 4: seems like it's the stuff is so persistent. It might 677 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 4: just be within that structure. I don't know the decay 678 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 4: factor or anything. 679 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay, So maybe it's not a cover up. 680 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 2: Maybe it's just a health risk. Perhaps maybe it's both. 681 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:32,399 Speaker 2: It's like asbestos planes. Asbestos planes. Yes, and now our 682 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 2: story turns to you. Thank you so much for listening. 683 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 2: Do you have personal experience with agent orange? Do you 684 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 2: have a relative who was exposed whether or not in 685 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 2: the Vietnam War? Let us know, and most importantly, let 686 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 2: us know if you think there is any sand to 687 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 2: this idea. Is there a cover up on the effects 688 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,720 Speaker 2: of agent orange? Is it somehow a cynical grap for money? 689 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,240 Speaker 2: We want to hear your stories. You can find Noel, Matt, 690 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,319 Speaker 2: Paul and I all over the internet. Yeah, weren Here's 691 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 2: where it gets crazy on Facebook, right. 692 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 4: That's our Facebook group that you have to answer a 693 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 4: question to join, and you better get it right or 694 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 4: else you're not coming in. 695 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 3: I screenshot at a couple of really good ones. 696 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 4: Hang on and while while Noel is pulling those up. 697 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 4: Also right to us. If you are a veteran or 698 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 4: a member of the VA and you have experience with 699 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 4: that with the VA, or maybe you work for them, 700 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,240 Speaker 4: and you want to just give us some insider information 701 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 4: about like what is actually going on with regards to 702 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 4: Agent orange or maybe depleted uranium another thing we've talked 703 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 4: about before. Yeah, just right in. We'd love to hear 704 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 4: your story. 705 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 3: So spoiler alert the question and joined the Facebook group 706 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 3: pretty easy. 707 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 4: Who are the hosts of the podcast? Stuff that I 708 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 4: want you to know? 709 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 3: And typically we get you know, one of us, or 710 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 3: three of us, or a couple of us, or usually 711 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 3: my name is spelled wrong or Ben's last name is 712 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,720 Speaker 3: butchered in some way. Josh and Ben. I've seen Josh 713 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 3: and Ben. That's a popular version of this show in 714 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 3: bizarro world. But this is this is this guy, says 715 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 3: Irwin D says uh Hurricane, Matthew, Dollar, Dollar, Bill, Benjamin 716 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 3: and Evolved. 717 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 2: Super ruler of producers Noel, Wow did that make your day? 718 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:13,879 Speaker 4: Yeah? It was pretty nice. 719 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 5: Guys like Pokemon rules like evolved. 720 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 2: Have you retained your final four? 721 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 4: Got? I hope not? Well? 722 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, man it thanks for screeched that. I 723 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 2: didn't see that. 724 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 4: One another one, said Matt and some other guys. 725 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 2: All right, that's why we were walking around smug yesterday. We, 726 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 2: of course, are ourselves big fans of Here's where it 727 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,920 Speaker 2: gets crazy. It's where we can hear from what we 728 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 2: consider the most important part of the show. You and 729 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 2: We've we've seen some fantastic suggestions for episodes. Received a 730 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 2: message recently that I thought the three of us would 731 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 2: find interesting for another episode, which was memory technology. Remember 732 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 2: that Black Mirror episode with the grains that can replay 733 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,880 Speaker 2: your memories? Yeah, so what if we do an episode 734 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 2: where we explore whether or not something like that could 735 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:14,240 Speaker 2: actually happen? 736 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:15,800 Speaker 4: Okay, I mean. 737 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 2: I feel like every episode of Black Mirror has a 738 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 2: wealth of potential topics. 739 00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 4: Big time. 740 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,959 Speaker 2: What was that one that broke everybody's heart? 741 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 4: San Jiniparo? 742 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 3: Oh man, yeah, no spoilers, just watch that one beautiful. 743 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:30,399 Speaker 3: I watched it with my mom. 744 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 4: Oh dude, are you telling me that? 745 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, did. 746 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 4: You know what it was before you watch it with her? 747 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:37,839 Speaker 4: I'd seen it before. 748 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 2: Okay, well check it out if you haven't yet. This 749 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 2: one we actually will not spoil. I think the story 750 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 2: is strong enough that you should experience it for yourself. 751 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 4: Shouldn't spoil any Black Mirror Superior show, I would say, 752 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 4: And that's the end of this classic episode. If you 753 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 4: have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can 754 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 4: get into contact with us in a number of different ways. 755 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 4: One of the best is to give us a call. 756 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:07,360 Speaker 4: Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK. 757 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 4: If you don't want to do that, you can send 758 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 4: us a good old fashioned email. 759 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,520 Speaker 2: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 760 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,760 Speaker 4: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 761 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,399 Speaker 4: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 762 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.