1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. Today we 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: are going to talk about Jim Thorpe, who was just 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: an incredible all around athlete. During his lifetime. He was 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: famous around the world, and he topped a lot of 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: lists of the best athletes of the twentieth century or 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: even the best athlete of all time. At the same time, 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: though news stories and early biographies and in some cases 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: stuff that still floats around today, managed to simultaneously praise 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: his accomplishments and also minimize them through racist stereotypes and 12 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: other falsehoods. Thorpe made an amazing name for himself in 13 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: track and field and football at Carlisle Indian Industrial School, 14 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: and then he became internationally famous of the nineteen twelve 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: Olympic Games. We were going to tell his story in 16 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: three parts, which is not the number that normally comes 17 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: in that sentence. I am not I don't think we've 18 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: ever done a three part or before we've done four. 19 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: We've well, yeah, we did that four part mini series 20 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: on China Chairman Mouth and we do too. On occasion 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: we do too periodically. This time we got three, so 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: to yes, I was today I was going to give 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: people the peek behind the curtain, which is that we 24 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: do that because we have two new episodes a week, 25 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: and if you break it to three, it gets into 26 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: some scheduling, you know, just like carefulness, you have to 27 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: do UM. I also really felt like with this one, 28 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: once I got to the point that I had turned 29 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: my notes into actual sentences, I looked at it and 30 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: kind of went, if I try to get this down 31 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: into two, we're going to have to cut out some 32 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: stuff that's really important, and I didn't want to do that. 33 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: So this time we're going to talk about Jim Thorpe's 34 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: life before and during his time at Carlisle, including some 35 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: of the context about Carlisle and other similar boarding schools. 36 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: Then next time we will talk about his incredible performance 37 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: at the nineteen twelve Summer Olympic Games, and then in 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: part three, we will talk about his career after his 39 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: time as an amateur athlete had ended, and then two 40 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: big pieces of his story that continued on for decades 41 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: after his death. According to Jim Thorpe's own account, he 42 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: and his fraternal twin brother Charlie, were born on May twelfth, 43 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: south of Belmont in what was at the time Indian Country. 44 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: Today that is near Prague, Oklahoma. But there's also a 45 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: christening record for the twins that list their birthday as 46 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: May twenty eight seven, so the year before Thorpe was 47 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: saying his birthday was. The boys were baptized at the 48 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: Benedictine Sacred Mission Church using Latin versions of their name 49 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: Carolus for Charlie and Jacobus Francisca's for Jim. Their five 50 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: Hiram was sac and Fox and Irish, and their mother, 51 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: Charlotte View was Potawatamie, Kickapoo and French. The boy's ancestors 52 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 1: included Sack Leader and war Chief black Hawk. After Jim 53 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: and Charlie were born, they were enrolled as members of 54 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: the sac and Fox nation, and Charlotte gave them traditional 55 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: sac and Fox names. Jim's was what though hook and 56 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: that means light after the lightning or bright path. Hiram 57 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: Thorpe was a farmer and a rancher. The family raised horses, hogs, 58 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: and cattle, as well as growing a lot of crops. 59 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: They lived on land that the thorpes had been allotted 60 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: under the General Allotment Act of eighteen eighty seven that's 61 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: also called the DAWs Act. We've talked about the DAWs 62 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: Act on the show before. It was the act that 63 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: broke up land that had been held for Indigenous nations, 64 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: collectively assigning it out to individual tribal members as part 65 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: of the US federal government strategy of allotment and assimilation. Overall, 66 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: this Act was devastating for the vibes and nations that 67 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: were affected. Once the land had been allotted, so called 68 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: excess land was open up for sale to non Indigenous people, 69 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: so each member that was eligible would get this allotment 70 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: and anything left over could be sold. Then, huge numbers 71 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: of people who were allotted land later wound up losing 72 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: that land for a range of reasons. Some people sold 73 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: the land because they wanted to or because they needed 74 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: the money. Others were defrauded out of it, or were 75 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: assigned allotments that just could not be maintained through any 76 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: reasonable means, so they weren't able to meet the standards 77 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: of keeping this land and it was taken from them. 78 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: This whole process was also geared towards getting indigenous people 79 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: to assimilate with white culture, including granting people US citizenship 80 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: once they'd successfully maintained their allotment for twenty five years. 81 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: Although the Sac and Fox Nation lost a huge amount 82 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: of land as the so called excess during allotment, the 83 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: sorp family le specifically seems to have fared better with 84 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: this than a lot of other people, including getting an 85 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: additional allotment in eighte This may have been because they 86 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,679 Speaker 1: already had some connections to the culture that indigenous people 87 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: were expected to assimilate with. Along with about fifteen percent 88 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: of the Second Fox Nation, the Thorpes were regarded by 89 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: the federal government as progressive. They had adopted, to at 90 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: least some extent, a more white way of life. They 91 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: were Christian, they spoke English, they lived in a log house, 92 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: and they wore settler style clothing. At the same time, 93 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: they were still an active part of their indigenous community, 94 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: taking part in festivals and observances, and following indigenous traditions 95 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: and methods for various parts of their day to day lives, 96 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: like grinding corn into flower. Their home was fairly isolated, 97 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:51,799 Speaker 1: and they didn't have a lot of contact with white 98 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: people until Jim and Charlie were about six years old. 99 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: Gemina's twin brother grew up hunting, fishing, riding and training 100 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: horse says, and playing outdoors a lot. Their father also 101 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: loved sports and physical activity, especially swimming, wrestling, and riding, 102 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: and he really taught his sons about physical fitness and 103 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: fair play. Jim was bigger and more athletic, and Charlie 104 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: was smaller and more bookish. But in Jim's words, quote, 105 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: we were never in the house when we could be 106 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: out of it. One of their favorite pastimes was to 107 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: play an almost extreme version of Follow the Leader. The 108 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: Leader would do things like climb all the way to 109 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: the top of a tree and then jump out, or 110 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: like jump into a really fast moving river and swim 111 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: to the other side. It's like follow the Leader and 112 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: Dare had a baby. Yeah, yeah, it is. It is 113 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: way more physically involved than any Follow the Leader I 114 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: played as a child, and their parents wanted them to 115 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: be educated, so when the boys were six, Jim and 116 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: Charlie were sent to the Second Fox Boarding School that 117 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: was a residential school that had been established by Quaker 118 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: missionaries on the edge of Second Fox Territory in eighteen 119 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: seventy two. The school's purpose was to convert and assimilate 120 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,239 Speaker 1: children from the Second Fox Nation, or, in the words 121 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: of the eighteen nineteen Act that provided federal funding to 122 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: these types of schools, to quote civilize them. We'll be 123 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: talking more about these schools more over the course of 124 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: this episode, and there is also a lot about their 125 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: history and development in our two part podcast on the 126 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: Fort Shaw Indian School Girls basketball team. Those episodes came 127 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: out in t seventeen. Jim and Charlie started at the 128 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: Mission school in eighteen ninety three when they were about six. 129 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: In the mornings, they and their classmates were taught basic English, 130 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: reading and writing, arithmetic, and history, along with religion and 131 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: white etiquette and social customs. And then in the afternoon 132 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: they had vocational training, with a lot of that vocational 133 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: training geared toward keeping the school itself running. So the 134 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: girls cleaned and did laundry and made new uniforms. The 135 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: boys did manual labor and worked on the school's farm. 136 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: Students also wore military style uniforms and did military style drilling. 137 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: All of this was pretty standard in these kinds of schools, 138 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: and it was all meant to just erase any trace 139 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: of their indigenous heritage or culture. Since Jim and Charlie 140 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: already spoke English, they had a little bit of an 141 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: easier time at the Mission school than many of their peers, 142 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: most of whom spoke only indigenous languages, which were forbidden 143 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: from being used at the school. But between the two 144 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: of them, Charlie was definitely the better student, and he 145 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: helped Jim through the more difficult parts of their studies. 146 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: But then in Charlie contracted pneumonia. Hiram and Charlotte came 147 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: out to the school to try to nurse him back 148 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: to health, but he died at the age of about 149 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: eight or nine. Charlie and Jim had really been just inseparable, 150 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: and Jim, of course was heartbroken and bereft. Compounding all 151 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: of this, Hiram and Charlotte had also been struggling in 152 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 1: their marriage. They went through a series of separations and 153 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 1: reconciliations that was all pretty tumultuous for their children. They 154 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: had eleven children total, five of whom survived to adulthood. 155 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: After his brother's death, Jim started spending a lot of 156 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: time in the woods alone. He repeatedly ran away from school, 157 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: making his way back home on foot. That was a 158 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: trip that took about twenty miles that's roughly thirty two kilometers. 159 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: This was not, by the way, unique to Jim at all. 160 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: Conditions at these schools were often really poor and students 161 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: just missed their families, so it was fairly common for 162 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: students to escape and then flee back home or somewhere else. 163 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: Hiram kept taking Jim back to school, only for Jim 164 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: to leave again. At one point, Jim even left the 165 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: school immediately after his father had dropped him off, taking 166 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: a short cut that put him outside the door of 167 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: the family home for his father even got back. So 168 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: Hiram decided to send Jim to a school that was 169 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: farther away, and that was Haskell Institute in Lawrence, Kansas. 170 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: That was about three hundred miles or four two kilometers 171 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: from where they were living. Two biographies of Jim Thorpe 172 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: interpret this somewhat differently. In Jim Thorpe, World's Greatest Athlete 173 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: by Robert W. Wheeler, part of the goal was definitely 174 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: to make it harder for Jim to return home, but 175 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: it was also an act of compassion on Hiram's part, 176 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: as he recognized that Jim was having a hard time 177 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: staying at a place that he associated so strongly with 178 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: his late brother. On the other hand, the book Native 179 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: American Son, The Life and Sporting Legend of Jim Thorpe 180 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: by Kate Beauford describes jim siblings as being terrified of 181 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: their father and Hiram, framing this whole decision as almost 182 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: a threat, saying quote, I'm going to send you so 183 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: far away you'll never find your way back. Yeah. Having 184 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: read both of these books, it's presented as a much 185 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: crueler decision to me in in Kate Beauford's book than 186 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: in Robert W. Wheelers. Regardless, though, in Jim and his 187 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 1: older brother George were both in rolled at Haskell Institute, 188 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: and we will get to Jim's time there and then 189 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: later on at Carlisle after a sponsor break. Jim Thorpe 190 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: was about ten years old when he was enrolled at 191 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: Haskell Institute, and his brother George was sixteen. At the time, 192 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: more than a thousand students were enrolled at the school, 193 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: and they represented between eighty five and ninety different indigenous 194 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: tribes and nations. Like the Sac and Fox Mission School, 195 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: Haskell Institute was established to assimilate indigenous children into white culture, 196 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: separating them from their families and their cultures and customs 197 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: and languages, with classroom instruction in the morning, vocational instruction 198 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: that kept the school running in the afternoon, and military 199 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: style uniforms and drilling. George left this school not long 200 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: after they arrived. One of Jim's favorite pastimes at the 201 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: school was watching football practice. He was such a constant 202 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: presence on the sidelines that team captain Shahn the Archiquette, 203 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: took notice of him and decided to encourage him. Chauncey 204 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: went to the school's harness shop and stitched together a 205 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: football out of pieces of leather and then stuffed it 206 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: with rags, and Jim started using this homemade football to 207 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: organize games among the students who were his own age. 208 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: After a while, Jim started to do pretty well at Haskell. 209 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: There are reports that you'll read that he was not 210 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: a great student, and his report cards say otherwise. In 211 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: nineteen o one, though he heard that his father had 212 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: been shot while hunting and was gravely injured. Jim decided 213 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: to go home and he hopped a train. When he 214 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 1: was found on board and removed. He also found out 215 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: the train had actually been going the opposite direction of 216 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: where he needed to be. It took Jim about two 217 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: weeks to walk home, and by that point hyram Thorpe 218 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: was out of danger, and while he wasn't exactly pleased 219 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: to see his son Amenda, Jim was able to help 220 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: around on the ranch while his father was convalescing. One 221 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: of Jim's friends also reported that he had really been 222 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: expelled from school for drinking as all this happened, so 223 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't just that he was going home to see 224 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: his sick father. The school records are unclear. They don't 225 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: confirm or refute this. Yeah, they just pretty much say 226 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: he was not there anymore. Although Jim's father recovered from 227 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: this injury, while Jim was still at home, his mother 228 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: died from blood poisoning. This might have been a complication 229 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: of childbirth. It was not too long after she had 230 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: given birth to her eleventh child. Her land allotment was 231 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: divided up among her heirs, with Jim getting about twenty acres. 232 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: So with all of this going on, Jim stayed at 233 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: home rather than being returned to Haskell. He attended nearby 234 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: Garden Grove Public School, and he worked on the family ranch, 235 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: but one day he and his brother decided to skip 236 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: their chores and go fishing, and when they got back, 237 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: their father whipped them, something that Jim Leader said he 238 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: deserved but didn't feel like taking, so he ran away 239 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: from home, this time going to Texas, where he worked 240 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: on a ranch until he had earned enough money to 241 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: buy himself a team of horses, and he described this 242 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: as wanting to prove himself to his father before he 243 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: went home again. Garden Grove didn't really have much of 244 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: an athletics program, although it was starting track and field 245 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: and baseball teams, and Jim found once he was back 246 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: that he just really really missed football, and at this 247 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: point among the indigenous population of the US, the school 248 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: most known for its football program was Carlisle Indian Industrial 249 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: School in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Like the Second Fox Mission School 250 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: and Haskell Institute, Carlisle Indian Industrial School was part of 251 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: this whole system of schools that were set up to 252 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: assimilate indigenous children. It opened in eighteen seventy nine and 253 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: was actually the first of these schools to be run 254 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: by the US government rather than by missionaries or other organizations. 255 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: Carlyle's founder and the architect of the federal approach toward 256 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: these boarding schools was Lieutenant Kern Richard Henry Pratt. He 257 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: had formulated his approach to Indigenous education while working with 258 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: Indigenous prisoners of war after the Red River War in 259 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy five. He set up a program that involved 260 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: English language and vocational instruction, followed by outplacement into jobs 261 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: for the incarcerated POW's. They made what he viewed as 262 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: rapid progress learning English and adapting to a more white 263 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: way of life. In Pratt's mind, the only way that 264 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: Indigenous people were going to survive the United States ongoing 265 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: western expansion was to abandon their cultures and their languages 266 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: and all of their tribal ties, and instead to fully 267 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: assimilate into white society. His slogan in this was killed 268 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: the Indian and save the Man. Pratt tried to convince 269 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: the federal government to fund a program for students and 270 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: teenagers similar to what he had done with these POWs. 271 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: He started by teaching a small group of Indigenous students 272 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: at Hampton Normal and Agricultural Institute IT in Virginia. He 273 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: later got funding to convert an abandoned cavalry barracks in 274 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania into a school. Like the other schools we've already 275 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: talked about, Carlyle combined academic and vocational instruction with military 276 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: style drilling and discipline. On arrival at the school, students 277 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: who didn't already have English names were given new ones. 278 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: They were also given haircuts and new clothes, with before 279 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: and after pictures taken to highlight this idea that they 280 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: were being civilized. Unlike the Second Fox Reservation School, which 281 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: was on the edge of Second Fox territory, Carlyle was 282 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: hundreds or thousands of miles away from where most of 283 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: its students lived. The point was to create as much 284 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: separation as possible between students and their cultures and families. 285 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: Both physical and emotional conditions at Carlyle and other similar 286 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: schools were often just appalling. Illness outbreaks were common, and 287 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: students often didn't have enough to eat. Class Room instruction 288 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: was threaded through with the idea that indigenous cultures were 289 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: backward and even evil. Punishments for rule breaking, including rules 290 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: that forbade children from speaking their native languages are following 291 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: their own cultural or religious observances, could really be abusive 292 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: Today Carlyle and similar schools in both the US and 293 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: Canada are rightly seen as horrific and intentional attempt at 294 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,719 Speaker 1: cultural genocide that tore a hole through the cultural ties 295 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: and lineages of thousands of Indigenous people. Just at Carlyle, 296 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: nearly two hundred students died of disease, malnutrition, and neglect. Typically, 297 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: these children's bodies were not returned to their families. They 298 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: were given Christian funeral rights and buried there at Carlisle. 299 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: In more recent years, there have been efforts, sometimes taking years, 300 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: to have those bodies repatriated to their tribes. Now we've 301 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: talked about a few of them on some of our 302 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: Unearthed episodes. Many of the children who went to Carlisle 303 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: and other boarding schools, including Haskell and including the Sac 304 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: and Fox School, they weren't going of their own free will. 305 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: Often their parents were coerced or threatened into sending their 306 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: children there, or federal policies toward Indigenous people had created 307 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: really desperate economic conditions for them that just left families 308 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: with no other choice. Federal officials also took custody of 309 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: the children of indigenous leaders who were seen as difficult 310 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: or threatening. Keeping those children at boarding schools, essentially as hostages. 311 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: At the same time, though, in the late nineteenth and 312 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: early twentieth century, Carlyle also had a certain level of prestige, 313 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: especially when it came to its athletics program, including among 314 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: Indigenous people. There were parents who sent their children to 315 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: Carlyle or other boarding schools willingly because for a range 316 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: of reasons, they thought it was the best option, and 317 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: in some cases there were students who chose to attend 318 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: Carlyle or another board school for themselves. Jim Thorpe fell 319 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: largely into that last category. He already knew about Carlyle 320 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,959 Speaker 1: and its reputation as an athletic powerhouse, and Carlyle had 321 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: actually also already heard about Jim. Lieutenant Colonel Pratt had 322 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: asked the Federal Indian Agent for Second Fox Nation to 323 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: be on the lookout for athletic talent as far back 324 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: as eighteen. Jim made the decision to go to Carlisle 325 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen o four, and when he told his father 326 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: about it, Hiram reportedly said, son, you were an Indian. 327 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: I want you to show other races what an Indian 328 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: can do. On April twenty second, nineteen o four, not 329 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: long after Jim arrived at Carlysle Indian Industrial School, Hiram 330 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: Thorpe died of blood poisoning, possibly as the result of 331 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: a snake bite during a hunting trip. Jim was not 332 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: able to return home for his father's funeral. At this point, 333 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: by the age of about sixteen, Jim had lost his 334 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: twin brother, other siblings, and both of his parents. The 335 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: staff at Carlysle became concerned for him, not so much 336 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: for the sake of his mental health, but because he 337 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: wasn't really participating understandably, and as the school administration saw it, 338 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: if a student wasn't participating, they also were not assimilating. 339 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: So Jim was put into Carlyle's outplacement program, which was 340 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: more typically used for older students. During summers or other breaks, 341 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: students would be sent to live with white families out 342 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: in the community, where they would work as domestic or 343 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: agricultural help. In June of nineteen o four, Jim was 344 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: sent to live with a family in Somerton, Pennsylvania, where 345 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: he would cook and clean in exchange for room and 346 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: board plus five dollars a month. Considering that Jim had 347 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: a lot of experience in farming and Ranching. This placement 348 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: didn't entirely make sense, and the family expected him to 349 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: eat in the kitchen rather than with them in the 350 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: dining room, which made it clear that they did not 351 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: see him as their equal. He was moved to a 352 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: different family in Pennsylvania, where he worked as their gardener, 353 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: and then he was moved to a home in New 354 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: Jersey where he worked as a foreman for Native American 355 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: workers on a local farm. He returned to Carlisle in 356 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: nine seven, and that is when he got involved in 357 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: the school's athletic program. We will get back to his 358 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: time at Carlisle athletics after a quick spotsor break. We're 359 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: gonna talk a little bit about the history of sports, 360 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: especially football, at Carlisle Indian Industrial School. The school established 361 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: a collegiate football program in eight and then not long 362 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: after that, Lieutenant Colonel Pratt briefly banned the sport after 363 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: a player broke his leg during a game. When students 364 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: banded together to try to get football reinstated, Pratt finally 365 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: agreed under two conditions. The first condition was that they 366 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: had to play fair. There would be no fighting, no 367 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: slug other players, even if the white teams were doing 368 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: it because their behavior, the Carlisle team's behavior was going 369 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: to be seen as a reflection on all indigenous people. 370 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: The second condition was quote that in the course of two, 371 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: three or four years, you will develop your strength and 372 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 1: ability to such a degree that you will whip the 373 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: biggest football team in the country. To that end, Carlyle 374 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: hired Glenn Warner as coach in eight Warner had been 375 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: nicknamed Pop while serving as team captain at Cornell because 376 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: at the age of five, he was the team's oldest member. 377 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: He had coached college teams before starting at Carlisle, and 378 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: with the exception of a brief break between nineteen o 379 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: four and nineteen o six, he worked as a football 380 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: coach at Carlisle until nineteen fourteen. There are all kinds 381 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: of ball games that play really important roles in indigenous 382 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: cultures all over North America, But when Pop Warner arrived 383 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: at Carlysle, most of his players really did not know 384 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: much about grit iron football. Specifically, a lot of them 385 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: had also been living through years of deprivation. Warner's told 386 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: Pratt that most of his prospective players should really be 387 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: trying out for beds in a hospital rather than spots 388 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: on a football team. Warner was genuinely afraid that there 389 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: was no way that he could shape them into a 390 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: team that would justify his twelve hundred dollar a year salary. 391 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: American football itself was a fairly new sport at this point, 392 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: having grown out of rugby and soccer. The Intercollegiate Football 393 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: Association was established in eighteen seventy seven and was the 394 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 1: first intercollegiate athletic conference until eighteen ninety three. It established 395 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: and refined the rules of play among its member schools. 396 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: Other organizations and associations followed, gradually refining a sport into 397 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: one that was at least hopefully interesting to watch, but 398 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: not so violent that it killed in an inordinate number 399 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: of players dads. There were times in early American football 400 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: history when player deaths were a big problem. Under Pop 401 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: Warner's direction, Carlisle played a huge part in that overall 402 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: process of refining the rules of football. In general. Carlisle's 403 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: players were smaller and lighter than the players on their 404 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: opposing teams, which included the powerhouses of the day like 405 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: Harvard and Yale. The team itself also tended to have 406 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: fewer players, so each player spent more time on the 407 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: field and had less time to rest during a typical game. 408 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: Those reduced numbers of players also meant that each player 409 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 1: needed to be able to play multiple positions. Since Carlisle 410 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: had no football stadium, nearly all of their games were 411 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: away games, and since the team was largely funded through 412 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: ticket sales, it maintained a really grueling schedule to get 413 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: to all those games. So Warner coached the team to 414 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: be quick, coordinated, and creative, writing new plays to take 415 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: advantage of the other team's weaknesses. Some of these were 416 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: straightforward football plays meant to be coordinated and agile, but 417 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 1: others were trick plays. It were not strictly speaking against 418 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: the rules, at least not until whichever governing body was 419 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: in charge at the moment meant to adjust the rules 420 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: for the following season. So here are some of the 421 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: trick plays that Pop Warner used at Carlisle. He had 422 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: straps sewn to the halfbacks and fullbacks uniforms so that 423 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: their teammates could literally throw whoever got the ball when 424 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 1: the play started. He added what he called a breast 425 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: protector to the team's uniforms, which he said was to 426 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: protect their breastbone if a player was blocked or tackled, 427 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: or just fell. This breast protector was padded an oval, 428 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 1: and it sure did look like a football if you 429 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: put your arm over it. And there was also the 430 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: hidden ball trick. In a game against Harvard in three 431 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: the team gathered into a huddle, only they were facing 432 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: outward instead of in, and then one of the players 433 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: shoved the ball up the back of another's jersey before 434 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: the huddle dispersed and ran in different directions, so the 435 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: Harvard players did not know who had the ball. Warner 436 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: was not the only coach and Carlyle not the only 437 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: team incorporating this kind of trickery. For example, the car 438 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: Lysle players were generally not at their best during bad 439 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: weather or in poor field conditions. Warner's interpretation of this 440 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: was that the other teams were often highly driven by 441 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: a sense of school pride, so they played their best 442 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: in any weather to avoid letting their school down. But 443 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: the car Lysle players were more about the love of 444 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: the game, and the game was just not as much 445 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: fun in the mud, in freezing weather or in the 446 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: middle of a downpour. As early as fans from Canton 447 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: Athletic Club started fire hosing the field to muddy it 448 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: up before Carlysle games. As another example, Harvard started using 449 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: footballs that were the same color as their jerseys so 450 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: it would be harder to see who had the ball. 451 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: Over time, the rulemaking bodies, it would be like, no, 452 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: you can't, you can't be shoving the balls that plays 453 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: jerseys to hide them. So the played an overall part 454 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: and how the rules of football evolved over the years. 455 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: Within a few years of its establishment, Carlisle Indian Industrial 456 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: Schools football team was recognized as a force to be 457 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: reckoned with among the opposing teams and within the Indigenous community. Consequently, 458 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: Carlisle was able to recruit the most athletically skilled players 459 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: from indigenous nations all over the United States. They were 460 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: doing the same thing that other football teams were, picking 461 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: the best and brightest athletes wherever they were. A November two, 462 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: nineteen o eight, right up in the Philadelphia Public Ledger 463 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: sums up the team Carlisle grew into quote, the Indian team, 464 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: if not the best in America, has a most distinguishing factor. 465 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: It is always fit. At one stage of the season, Yale, 466 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: West Point, Harvard, or Princeton might defeat the Indians. It 467 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: is nearly always necessary for each of these teams to 468 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: be at their best when they meet the Indians, but 469 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: the Indians can always, in any season, beat almost any 470 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: team at any time of the season, the Indians displayed 471 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: the most remarkable form and football prowess. To get back 472 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: to Jim Thorpe and his part in all of this, 473 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: not long after he got back to Carlisle after his outplacements, 474 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: he was walking to an intermural football game with some 475 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: of his intermural teammates. He wasn't on a varsity team yet, 476 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: and he saw members of the varsity track and field 477 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: team practicing the high jump. He watched as they kept 478 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: raising the bar an inch at a time, and the 479 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: players tried to jump over. Although most of them were 480 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: able to clear the bar when it was set to 481 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: five ft eight inches, none of them could clear it 482 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: at five nine. Thorpe asked if he could try, which 483 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: the varsity team found laughable. In his words quote, I 484 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: had a pair of overalls on, a hickory shirt and 485 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: a pair of gymnasium shoes that belonged to someone I 486 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: looked like anything but a high jumper. The track athletes 487 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: snickered a bit as the bar was set up for me. 488 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: I cleared the barrow my first try, and, laughing at 489 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: the astonished group of athletes, went on down to the 490 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: lower field for the game. The next day, he was 491 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: called into Pop Warner's office. When Warner asked if he 492 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: knew what he had done, Thorpe said, nothing bad, I hope. 493 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,959 Speaker 1: Warner told him that he had just broken the school 494 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: record in the high jump, and Thorpe replied that he 495 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: thought he could probably do better if he was actually 496 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: wearing a tracksuit. This feat earned Thorpe a spot on 497 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: the varsity track team, with Warner telling him that he 498 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: might want to coach one day, and if he did, 499 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: he would need to know about track and field to 500 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: do a good job at it. We have really focused 501 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: on football so far, but by this point Carlyle's athletic 502 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: reputation involved multiple sports, including track and field, and that 503 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: reputation had also drawn some criticism, including allegations that Carlyle 504 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: was fielding players who were not actually students. And while 505 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,959 Speaker 1: it was true that some of Carlyle's players were older 506 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: than the typical college player and that some of them 507 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: barely attended classes, the school maintained that all of its 508 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: players were legal. It did, however, implement a four year 509 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: limit to how long players could remain on a varsity team. 510 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: In an effort to deflect criticism, Albert exen Dine, who 511 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: was about to age out of the varsity track team, 512 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: was assigned to Thorpe kind of as a mentor. At 513 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: the time, exen Dine held most of the school's medals 514 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: in track and field, and at a meet at the 515 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: end of his first season, Thorpe broke all of those records. 516 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: When the varsity football season started in the fall, Thorpe 517 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: insisted that he be allowed to play, but Warner objected 518 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: that he didn't want to put his track star at risk. 519 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: As a compromise, Warner tried to put Thorpe on the 520 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,479 Speaker 1: football team as a kicker, and Thorpe would not accept 521 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: that as being good enough. Finally, exasperated with Thorpe's insistence, 522 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: Warner basically made him the target for tackling practice, But 523 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: as his teammates tried to tell backle him, he just 524 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: kept dodging them and flipping them over and then out 525 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: running everyone who was left standing. The descriptions of this 526 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: for multiple people are really like. Pop Warner was like, fine, 527 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: you want to be on the football team, They're gonna 528 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: be the target for this practice. And they did not 529 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: work out the way Pop Warner was expecting. So Pop 530 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: Warner finally relented and allowed Thorpe onto the varsity football team, 531 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: although he was inexperienced enough as a football player that 532 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: he spent most of that first season on the bench. 533 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: He was a backup player to Albert Payne. I think 534 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: in one of the biographies I read, it said that 535 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: his first varsity football practice was the first time he 536 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: had worked with an actual football, rather than the one 537 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: that had been stitched together from leather scraps and stuffed 538 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: with rags. Carlile finished that season, though, with ten wins 539 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: and one loss, and Thorpe started a scrapbook of press 540 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: clippings about his games. Thorpe returned to both track and 541 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: fee field and football at Carlisle in and he started 542 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: to get a lot more time on the field in 543 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: football games. One reason was that a lot of Carlyle 544 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: players had reached their four year limit and had aged out, 545 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: but also Thorpe was just flat out amazing. For example, 546 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: in Carlyle's game against Conway Hall, Thorpe scored five touchdowns 547 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: and through a thirty yard pass that led to another score. 548 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: During the first half of the game, Warner finally pulled 549 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: him out of the game because he felt like they 550 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: were just humiliating the other team. The final score there 551 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: was fifty three to zero. At this point Thorpe temporarily 552 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: took a break from Carlisle. So that seems like a 553 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: good point to also take a pause on this episode. 554 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: We will pick it up next time. Do you have 555 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: a little bit of listener mail for us? Sure? Do? 556 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: This listener mail is from Gene and Jean sent the 557 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: most wonderful picture. Jean wrote in after our episode where 558 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: I interviewed Dr Catherine Sharp Landeck about Jackie Cochrane, and 559 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: Jean says, Hi, Holling and Tracy, thank you so much 560 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: for presenting such a thoughtful and entertaining interview with Dr 561 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: Landeck about Jackie Cochrane. As a retired Air Force pilot 562 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: and Air Force Academy graduate, I feel a deep debt 563 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: of gratitude to Jackie and the other women's Air Force 564 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: Service pilots. At the same time, I was surprised to 565 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: find that my career path may not have met with 566 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: her approval, especially considering I'm married to another military pilot 567 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: and had two children while actively serving. As with many 568 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: of your podcast episodes, you dealt honestly with Jackie's integrity, 569 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: neither downplaying her accomplishments nor glossing over her shortcomings. Thank 570 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: you for presenting women and all your subjects as authentic 571 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: human beings with faults and flaws that coexist with their 572 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: impressive feats and important events. Listening to your podcast as 573 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: one of the highlights of my day, and I can't 574 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: wait to hear what you'll be talking about next. Cheers 575 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: Gane from Tampa. And then the attachment UH says ps. 576 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: Here's the picture that would probably have Jackie rolling in 577 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: her grave. It was taken about two weeks before my 578 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: second son was born. My aunt said that I looked 579 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: like a cross between a South American dictator and a 580 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: pregnant Catholic schoolgirl. UM. So Jean is in her uniform, UM. 581 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: She has all these medals pins to her her chest area. 582 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: She's holding a certificate that presumably she has just been 583 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: awarded UM and is definitely UH in the late time 584 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: of pregnancy. I love this picture. UM. I love the 585 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: extremely happy look on on Gene space and I love 586 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't talk about this specifically in the episode, 587 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: but I mean we talked a lot about Jackie Cochrane 588 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: thinking that women needed to have babies and raised children, 589 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: and we didn't really talk about the fact that a 590 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: lot of women who serve in the military and who 591 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: flies pilots also have children and raise them. Um, that's 592 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 1: definitely true. So thank you Gene for this great picture 593 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: and the great email. UH. Thanks to everybody uh for 594 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: listening to the show today. 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