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Speaker 1: Welcome to another notion of the Johns Little Podcast, brought

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Speaker 1: to you by citizens official Bank of the Giants. John Schmelck.

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Speaker 1: Paul Deatino join from Indianapolis by the host of the

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Speaker 1: Afternoon Drive on Sirius XM. Former NFL coach general manager

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Speaker 1: Pat Kerwin. Pat, what's going on?

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Speaker 2: Man?

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Speaker 1: Good to talk to you.

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Speaker 3: Oh, good to have me on, honored fellows to talk

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Speaker 3: to you. So it's it's the next phase of the season.

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Speaker 3: I just got done talking to Mike McDonald about you

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Speaker 3: win a Super Bowl, and all of a sudden he's

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Speaker 3: back in this mode and trying to get ready to

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Speaker 3: restructure his team. So the NFL doesn't wait for anybody,

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Speaker 3: you know that. And so here we are and before

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Speaker 3: you know, at the owners meetings and then after that,

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Speaker 3: of course the draft.

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Speaker 2: So it is the season.

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Speaker 3: The NFL has figured out how to make us busy

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Speaker 3: every month of the year.

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Speaker 1: That is absolutely true. I let's start here as somebody

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Speaker 1: that used to do this for a living, Pat, whether

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Speaker 1: as a coach or a GM, what about the NFL

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Speaker 1: combine in terms of the evaluation process was most valuable

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Speaker 1: to you? And why?

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Speaker 2: To me? I think you had to be good at it.

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Speaker 3: But I thought the interviews if you're crafty with it,

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Speaker 3: and I was. You know, I worked for five different

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Speaker 3: head coaches, so I got all chance to see their style.

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Speaker 3: I thought Belichick was the best of them all, and

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Speaker 3: some of the other guys are close to friends of mine,

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Speaker 3: like Pete Carroll. But I thought Bill he got it

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Speaker 3: figured out and he was going to use twenty minutes

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Speaker 3: and get as much and more information than most.

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Speaker 2: So I think the art of the interview, if you're

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Speaker 2: good at it, it's the best part of it.

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Speaker 3: The medical is clearly important many of the injuries we

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Speaker 3: know about. But I remember here and there was a

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Speaker 3: running back that we were talking seriously about and he

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Speaker 3: passed like six physicals clear, and then on the seventh

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Speaker 3: when they found out he did not have an AC help.

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Speaker 3: So I pay attention. Yeah, so I pay attention to

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Speaker 3: all that stuff. I'm not so big on the measurement

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Speaker 3: stuff on the field.

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Speaker 2: It's nice.

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Speaker 3: It kind of keeps them busy. Some of those tests

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Speaker 3: relate to their position groups linebackers in the short shuttle.

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Speaker 3: If you just I spent a lot of time looking

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Speaker 3: at how many times players changed direction in games, and

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Speaker 3: when you get to the linebackers in fifty plays, they

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Speaker 3: might change directed one hundred and twenty times.

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Speaker 2: Right, So those.

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Speaker 3: Kind of drills I think do help. But the forty

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Speaker 3: yard dance for the offensive tackle, I don't think so.

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Speaker 4: Pat, I think is a football lifer. And the welfare

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Speaker 4: of experience that you had in a number of different

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Speaker 4: roles makes this question very relevant for you. The Giants

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Speaker 4: always had the Giants' way of how they operated. John

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Speaker 4: Harball comes from the Baltimore Ravens and knows one way

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Speaker 4: on how to do things and was very good at it.

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Speaker 4: And now we have what we're calling a collaboration of

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Speaker 4: John Harbaugh and the Giants. So tell me how difficult

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Speaker 4: is it when you have two different factions who had

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Speaker 4: very specific kinds of ways of doing things to mesh

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Speaker 4: them and to do it quickly enough that the Giants

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Speaker 4: believe they can be successful this year.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've been through one of them, and it was

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Speaker 3: when Bill Parcells came to us, and he was coming

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Speaker 3: with the Bill Parcells way and everybody it wasn't threatening.

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Speaker 3: It was just reality that he would look at everything

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Speaker 3: in the building and decide what he thought needs to

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Speaker 3: be changed.

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Speaker 2: And I have a feeling.

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Speaker 3: That the Marrors are welcomed to someone else because they

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Speaker 3: had some very loyal guys that were there a long

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Speaker 3: time and it's very hard to say goodbye. But John

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Speaker 3: wanted to build it and he was given the green

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Speaker 3: light to do it, So I don't know if it

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Speaker 3: was a mesh so much as guide us John, That's

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Speaker 3: what I feel like. It was more like, John, come

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Speaker 3: and do something different here because we need to be different,

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Speaker 3: and you have the vision for different. So I think

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Speaker 3: that's how that one went. But I saw parcels come

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Speaker 3: to our place, and he even scrutinized the guys cleaning

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Speaker 3: the building and didn't let all of them stay either,

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Speaker 3: and the guys who cut the grass changed, and so

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Speaker 3: everything changed for the way he wanted. And Bill told

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Speaker 3: me as I was leaving the building, and we are

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Speaker 3: still friends, but he said, look, I don't have time.

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Speaker 3: This is important as relates to John. I don't have

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Speaker 3: time to train all of you on how I want

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Speaker 3: it done. I'm going to bring people here that already

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Speaker 3: know how I want to do it, and I think

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Speaker 3: it's it's probably a healthy thing for the giants.

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Speaker 1: How quickly, pat before we turn our attention to the

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Speaker 1: drafted free agency. Do you think the Giants can turn

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Speaker 1: this around with the right moves in the offseason given

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Speaker 1: what's already on their roster bringing in John Harbaugh. They

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Speaker 1: don't have a ton of cat money right now, but

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Speaker 1: they can create whatever they want in terms of renegotiating

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Speaker 1: and restructuring some contracts. How quick of a turnaround do

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Speaker 1: you think this can be?

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Speaker 3: Well, you have two ingredients that I like a lot.

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Speaker 3: One I like your quarterback and two I like your

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Speaker 3: defensive line. So you know, just use Seattle for a minute,

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Speaker 3: just as I said talking to Mike. Mike, once he

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Speaker 3: realized he had a defensive line, he took the chance

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Speaker 3: and went out and got Donald and found out he had.

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Speaker 2: A quarterback and from that everything grew from that.

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Speaker 3: So I do think now your division is another story, right,

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Speaker 3: So you got to deal with the Eagles. Their personnel

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Speaker 3: is better than yours at this point, and I think

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Speaker 3: if you can get yourself into that ballpark, maybe there's

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Speaker 3: a chance to be a nine win team. I think

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Speaker 3: it's a two year deal to get this where you

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Speaker 3: want to go. And I do think the quarterback is

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Speaker 3: going to need all of that to be ready to

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Speaker 3: be a championship quarterback. Look at the guy in New England.

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Speaker 3: In his second year he went to a Super Bowl.

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Speaker 3: So I do think that model's there, and I do

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Speaker 3: like that you hired a veteran coach. I say this

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Speaker 3: a lot, knowing New York as I do, and I

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Speaker 3: know you can find a Dan Campbell here or there somewhere,

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Speaker 3: But in general, the way the media is in New

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Speaker 3: York and the expectations of the fans, I would be

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Speaker 3: hiring a veteran coach if I had to hire one,

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Speaker 3: because I think they just know better and they're quicker.

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Speaker 1: Patiltt, I have one more on the staff because I

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Speaker 1: think this will be really interesting, giving your background in

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Speaker 1: both the front all of a sudden on coaching staffs.

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Speaker 1: The Giants have three very accomplished gentlemen that'll be shit

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Speaker 1: aring the offensive duties being led by Matt Nagge, the

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Speaker 1: offensive coordinator, b Greg romans here Brian callahans here. One

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Speaker 1: was a former head coach, though they were a longtime

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Speaker 1: playcre On offensive coordinator, and all three really come from

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Speaker 1: different systems and philosophies. How do you think this is

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Speaker 1: gonna work? Putting it all together? To getting a coherent

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Speaker 1: offense together. How much is John gonna tell them why

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Speaker 1: my offense to look like this and they're gonna follow that?

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Speaker 1: Or is he gonna say, all right, Matt Naggie figured

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Speaker 1: it out? What these guys? What do you think that

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Speaker 1: process is going to be like putting this offense together

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Speaker 1: to figuring out what system best fits the players in

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Speaker 1: the roster.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not a big fan of an all star staff,

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Speaker 3: and I think you got a lot of people that

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Speaker 3: have their own philosophies and they're strong headed. I think

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Speaker 3: John has to supervise it. I think John has to

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Speaker 3: be on top of that for the early months and

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Speaker 3: make sure as he watches sit in the back of

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Speaker 3: the room when they're meeting on developing the playbook, sit

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Speaker 3: in the back of the room and find out who

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Speaker 3: the is influencer is, Where is most of the philosophy

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Speaker 3: coming from. Are they sharing ideas? Which is what you

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Speaker 3: hope for. I think he's got a spate make. He's

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Speaker 3: gonna probably welcome some conflict. But John learned something in

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Speaker 3: Baltimore that he's going to take to hear and that's

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Speaker 3: for sure. They didn't run the ball as much as

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Speaker 3: they should have at times, sure, and they never really

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Speaker 3: got an offense that went past Lamar's scrambling skills and

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Speaker 3: everything else. So I know that John looked at that

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Speaker 3: late last year and wondered, you know, don't tell me

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Speaker 3: the guy didn't run it enough, Go over and make

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Speaker 3: him run it more. So I think John will have

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Speaker 3: a heavy hand on the offense. Get in here, if

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Speaker 3: you're lined up here, you got to go over the

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Speaker 3: middle with at the score great.

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Speaker 1: How do we make that happen?

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Speaker 4: I don't know, but Citizens does makes sense of your

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Speaker 4: money with Citizens Official Bank of Eli Manning. Let me

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Speaker 4: ask you this, Pat, you mentioned a moment ago you

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Speaker 4: think it's two years for the Giants to kind of

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Speaker 4: get this turned around to where they want to be.

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Speaker 4: Two philosophies going into this offseason. One is get Jackson

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Speaker 4: Dart as many weapons as possible so that you don't

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Speaker 4: stunt his growth and development. The other one is the

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Speaker 4: Giants defense. Although a lot of talent is there, they

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Speaker 4: underachieved dramatically last year and they haven't been able to

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Speaker 4: stop the run for a couple of years now. So

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Speaker 4: which side of the ball would you prioritize this season?

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Speaker 4: As you try to get to that point that you

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Speaker 4: eventually want to get to.

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Speaker 3: I love the question and I have a strong opinion

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Speaker 3: on the answer too. The quarterback needs to be protected

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Speaker 3: and an ability to succeed, and so I would buy

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Speaker 3: veterans for the offense, specifically offensive lineman. I'll use the

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Speaker 3: Buffalo as an example when they got Josh. They bought

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Speaker 3: four offensive linemen and tied them to just the tackle

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Speaker 3: they kept on the outside.

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Speaker 2: So I would be.

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Speaker 3: For the young quarterback, including a veteran receiver at time.

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Speaker 3: On the defensive side, it'll be all draft. You've got

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Speaker 3: enough veterans around. I would do what the Rams did.

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Speaker 3: They went and found three rookies in a draft two

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Speaker 3: years ago, Jared Vers and the guys, and they were

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Speaker 3: able to turn that around. So draft your defense, buy

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Speaker 3: your offense.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting. So Pat, you said before we started, we

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Speaker 1: talked to you about all the interviews of today with

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Speaker 1: a lot of the linebackers and defensive lineman. Those are

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Speaker 1: the guys that were made available. They were at the podium,

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Speaker 1: and you mentioned in passing that your favorite player in

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Speaker 1: this draft and you talk to him today is Ohio

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Speaker 1: Date linebacker Sonny Styles. My simple question to you is why.

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Speaker 3: Well, he's got a lot of experience, all right. He's

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Speaker 3: played in fifty games, fifty three games, forty two starts.

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Speaker 3: He went to college as a seventeen year old and

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Speaker 3: started games for Ohio State. As a seventeen year old.

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Speaker 3: He came as a safety. He landed up as a

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Speaker 3: terrific outside pass rusher linebacker. He also wears the green

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Speaker 3: dot at Ohio State. He's only twenty one years old.

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Speaker 3: He is versatile position wise, He's a blitzer. He's his

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Speaker 3: dad did a great job of raising him. Former NFL player,

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Speaker 3: He to me, was the most accomplished guy. And I'll

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Speaker 3: take a little page out of Dave Gettelman's old book.

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Speaker 3: Dave Gettleman would say to me, I'm only taking a

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Speaker 3: guy in the first round that I think has got

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Speaker 3: a chance to be a gold jacket. That was his

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Speaker 3: favorite expression to me, that's the kid who has the

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Speaker 3: gold jacket opportunity.

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Speaker 2: He looks to me like and everyone's talking about Reese.

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Speaker 3: Reese is an eighteen game player versus a fifty game

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Speaker 3: player who's played so many positions, seen it all already.

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Speaker 3: And you guys know in New York, you gotta get

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Speaker 3: on the field early, and you better have the experience

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Speaker 3: to get on the field early.

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Speaker 2: I think he's a great fit.

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Speaker 3: I would love and people say, oh, I love when

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Speaker 3: I see these mock Jeffs. I just talked to gms

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Speaker 3: and coaches. They think the guy is a chance to

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Speaker 3: be a great player. So he's not going to be

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Speaker 3: around at ten to fifteen where everyone thinks he's going

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Speaker 3: to go. I think he's going to go five, six

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Speaker 3: or seven.

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Speaker 4: M You know, Pat the positional value people who you know,

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Speaker 4: carry that banner around with them wherever they go. They

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Speaker 4: will say, you can't take a Styles at five, you

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Speaker 4: can't take a Downs at five, you can't take a

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Speaker 4: Love at five. What do you say to any of

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Speaker 4: those people when the other group on the other side says,

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Speaker 4: you got to take the best player available, period and

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Speaker 4: you and you really can't be missing when you're drafting,

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Speaker 4: especially that high in the first round.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I hear it all too, And I wait to

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Speaker 3: create my own impression by meeting with the kids, watch

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Speaker 3: them on tape and talking to the general managers and

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Speaker 3: coaches around this league. And they don't They'll talk to

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Speaker 3: me off the record, and I don't share who they are,

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Speaker 3: but they love styles and to me and I get

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Speaker 3: why guys take offensive tackles early and often in first rounds.

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Speaker 3: You can hide him, you can put a tight end

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Speaker 3: next to him, you can run slide protection to him.

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Speaker 3: I'm looking at a guy that I think is a

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Speaker 3: dynamic player. So I don't really care what mock drafts

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Speaker 3: say and I don't really care.

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Speaker 2: And they might be right.

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Speaker 3: I have lots of respect for people's opinions, but after

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Speaker 3: I meet with him these players, I have my own

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Speaker 3: opinion and I'll stand my ground that after about fifty

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Speaker 3: years of this, I know what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, Pat So another guy from Ohio State. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how their defense give up any points last year,

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Speaker 1: given we're gonna have like four of these guys going

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Speaker 1: the first fifty picks from their defense. Yeah, is Caleb

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Speaker 1: Downs and I loved watching them on tape. You didn't

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Speaker 1: see him really make any mistakes. He was really good

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Speaker 1: around the line of scrimmage. I didn't feel like he

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Speaker 1: had a ton of coverage snaps to really get a

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Speaker 1: feel for what he's gonna be like in kind of

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Speaker 1: Manda Man coverage. Just curious your take on him as

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Speaker 1: a player, would you put him into that Kyle Hamilton

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Speaker 1: range or maybe since as measurables don't aren't quite as

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Speaker 1: good as Hamilton's in terms of length and heightened stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. How do you view Downs?

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Speaker 3: I like Downs a lot, and if it came down

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Speaker 3: to one or the other, I would take Styles, But

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Speaker 3: if it was just one of them, I'd take the

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Speaker 3: other one in a minute. So those are the two

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Speaker 3: guys I like in the draft the most. And I

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Speaker 3: also take you back to your own team. I recalled

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Speaker 3: doing the draft when every Giant fan, including my son,

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Speaker 3: we're booing the pick of JPP because you had straight

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Speaker 3: hand and OC, I go, that's not how this works.

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Speaker 3: You got to take the best player, and don't worry

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Speaker 3: if you have depth at the position. Those guys are

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Speaker 3: going to fade away soon enough and retire and you

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Speaker 3: need to have the next best player.

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Speaker 2: So I kind of look at it that way.

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Speaker 3: Now that goes back to your point about the best

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Speaker 3: available player. But I will say this about draft boards,

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Speaker 3: they're like fingerprints. There are no two draft boards the same.

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Speaker 3: Everybody sees players different. I would say Downs to me

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Speaker 3: would be my second choice, safe for me to say,

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Speaker 3: I think an Ohio State guy should be your first pick.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, Pat, let me just follow up.

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Speaker 1: Where do you think downs plays his best ball? Does

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Speaker 1: you know a safety is a very broad term. Now

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Speaker 1: is he a guy that plays in the slot? Is

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Speaker 1: he a box safety? Is a single high post safety?

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Speaker 1: Is a two high safety? Where do you think he

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Speaker 1: plays his best ball as a safety?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: To me, I like the other expression called rock and

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Speaker 3: roll safeties. Why that means he's the free or the

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Speaker 3: strung and by motion or why trades, they move that

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Speaker 3: tight end. You don't have to run him across. You

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Speaker 3: can just rock and roll the safeties. To me, that's

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Speaker 3: how i'd play him. And if you want to see

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Speaker 3: him down low, he'll be down low for you. Just

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Speaker 3: put that tight end over there or go the other way.

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Speaker 3: So that's to me, his versatility does not hinder him

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Speaker 3: from any of those spots.

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Speaker 4: If you want to know how to manage two minutes

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Speaker 4: of crunch time football, I'm your math.

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Speaker 1: But if you're wondering about a long term financial plan,

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Speaker 1: you should talk to citizens. Hey, I can also talk

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Speaker 1: long care.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to learn about amilia routine. Yes, I knew

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Speaker 2: I could help make sense of your money with citizens.

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Speaker 4: The other guy pat who we keep hearing about various

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Speaker 4: opinions over where he should play, is Reese. I believe

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Speaker 4: he already told the people at the combine write something

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Speaker 4: about he wants to be an edge guy. Of course,

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Speaker 4: why wouldn't you, that's where the money is made. What

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Speaker 4: are your thoughts about where he's best suited in the

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Speaker 4: NFL and how does that affect his value?

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Speaker 3: Well, let me use Dan Quinn to answer your question.

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Speaker 3: Dan Quinn's a very close friend of mine. We've been

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Speaker 3: friends since our Hofstra days, which is a million years ago.

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Speaker 3: But I talked to Dan about that subject today and

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Speaker 3: Dan said, and I asked him, let me ask you

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Speaker 3: about when you had Parsons as a rookie in Dallas,

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Speaker 3: and he.

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Speaker 2: Said that I do the same thing with this kid.

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Speaker 3: Don't line him up outside all the time because he's

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Speaker 3: not going to be able to handle the three hundred

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Speaker 3: and thirty five pound tackles. Okay, and he's an easy

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Speaker 3: he's subject to run protection to Parsons, he put it linebacker,

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Speaker 3: if you recall, and he blitzed him a lot, and

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Speaker 3: when you blitz him schematically, he comes free. Or on

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Speaker 3: a back, and he was having early success, and as

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Speaker 3: time went on they kept developing him as an outside

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Speaker 3: rush guy, but they needed to get a whole resume

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Speaker 3: of ways to rush the passer. So his feeling on

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Speaker 3: reaches the same thing with eighteen college games. Start them inside,

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Speaker 3: start him as a willbacker, Blitz them some, get them

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Speaker 3: playing there, make sure they don't count them in the

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Speaker 3: box when they you know they're gonna count, where's the mic?

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Speaker 3: And then let it grow from there. Don't rush them

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Speaker 3: into something physically. I looked at him this morning pretty closely.

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Speaker 3: It's the mismatch of maybe one hundred pounds. We're not

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Speaker 3: ready to do that to him.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: We're joined by Pat Kerwen. He's hosted Moving the Chains

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Speaker 1: All right, Pat, let's look the free agency here. What

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Speaker 1: are some of the big moves that you think are

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Speaker 1: going to kind of set the stage that teams are

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Speaker 1: waiting to see what happens with these players that will

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Speaker 1: determine what free agency looks like.

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Speaker 2: This hit.

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Speaker 3: Well, you may not like my first response. That's okay,

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Speaker 3: I don't think. I don't think it's a great year

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Speaker 3: in free agency. I agree with you, yeah, And I

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Speaker 3: think it's because people have had Now we got twelve

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Speaker 3: teams with over the cap, they'll fix that, most of

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Speaker 3: them will. I think a lot of teams have done

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Speaker 3: a really good job of locking up their young players,

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Speaker 3: and I don't think they let them get the free

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Speaker 3: agency as quickly. So when you look at let's take

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Speaker 3: linebackers for a minute, I've on my list of the way,

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Speaker 3: I listed them eight of the top twelve or over thirty.

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Speaker 3: I'm not touching those guys still after the draft. You know,

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Speaker 3: a thirty three year old linebacker. If I leave, if

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Speaker 3: I don't get one in the draft, then I'm going

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Speaker 3: to come back and call those guys and see who

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Speaker 3: wants to come. But and one year deals, just like

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Speaker 3: Houston put all those one year deals on that team

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Speaker 3: three years in a row, and they just kept moving

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Speaker 3: them out after a year until they found five or

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Speaker 3: six guys they liked and gave him a couple of

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Speaker 3: three year deals, so I don't like it that much.

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Speaker 3: I think we might have four franchise tags, and that's

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Speaker 3: taken a little bit of the cream off the top.

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Speaker 3: And after that, I think you just really there's not

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Speaker 3: a lot of twenty five year olds who do I

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Speaker 3: want to give a four year deal to. Do I

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Speaker 3: want to give it to a thirty one year old? No,

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Speaker 3: I don't. So I think the list gets reduced pretty quickly,

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Speaker 3: and I think free agency could be over in five days.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, Pat, it's interesting because earlier you had

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Speaker 4: said that you'd go young with draft picks on the

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Speaker 4: Giants defense, but you'd like to maybe supplement with free

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Speaker 4: agency on offense. They've got two very important offensive players

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Speaker 4: who are going to be free agents, and Jermaine and

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Speaker 4: lumin Or their starting right tackle, Windel Robinson, one of

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Speaker 4: their starting wide receivers who's coming off a career season.

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Speaker 4: I don't even want to go to Greg Van Roten,

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Speaker 4: who may or may not retire.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: He told me he wants to play, so he says that,

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Speaker 4: but who knows. When the body gets creaky old during

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Speaker 4: the off season, you never know. So Pat what do

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Speaker 4: you think the market's going to be for those guys

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Speaker 4: and how important is it giving what your philosophy was

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Speaker 4: earlier for the Giants to try to keep those guys.

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Speaker 3: But you can buy linemen of comparable talent to the

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Speaker 3: ones you're going to lose if you're going to lose them.

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Speaker 3: I did talk to a GM about his offensive line

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Speaker 3: problems because he has two linemen that are free as well,

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Speaker 3: and he said, the problem is the list is so

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Speaker 3: weak that people are going to overpay them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you got to resist doing that.

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Speaker 3: So I like your lineman, but I do think that

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Speaker 3: they are comparable guys in free agency.

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Speaker 2: The seat to that.

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Speaker 3: Is I don't want to put I want that quarterback

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Speaker 3: to have five veterans ahead of them and two veterans

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Speaker 3: as the back cups. With all the injuries we have

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Speaker 3: on the offensive line these days, and I think it's

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Speaker 3: because we don't have nine on seven practice and they

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Speaker 3: don't do enough practice. The linemen complained about it, but

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Speaker 3: they're getting hurt at a rate I can't remember.

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Speaker 1: That's the Johnsontal Podcast, brought to you by Citizens, the

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00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,880
Speaker 1: official bank of the Giants who gain these celebrations here.

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00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,880
Speaker 1: Everyday Financial needs big new fans to get the most

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Speaker 1: dot com. Slash giants, Patt, you got to go host

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Speaker 1: Move in the Chains, my friend. Hope you're enjoying Indie.

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Speaker 1: We wish you out there with you. Thanks so much

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Speaker 1: and enjoy rest your time out there at the Combine.

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Speaker 3: And it's been nice talking to you guys. Hopefull you'll

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Speaker 3: invite me again someday.

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Speaker 1: That yeah, great to stard. We'll see everybody next time

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00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:45,679
Speaker 1: in the Johnson'll pop