1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: Hey, Tatiana, kaj Hi, Hey, Hi see everyone. So good 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: to see you guys. And this is actually my first 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: time seeing you both together. 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And I think it's also the time that 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 2: we've seen each other since Ukraine, like we've spoken. 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a year, right. 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: This is so special and unusual that we can do 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: this episode and have this conversation. We recorded a ton 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: of the conversations with Tatiana when you were in Ukraine. 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: But first, can you just tell me what are your 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: names and what do you do. 12 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 3: My name is Petiana Fodel, and I am legal counsel 13 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 3: at Spotify. 14 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: And I'm Kajuars And I'm a former Navy seal war 15 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: correspondent and journalist. And i am the president of the 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: Guild Foundation, where I do philanthropic work. 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to She Pivots, the podcast where we talk with 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: women who dared to pivot out of one career and 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: into something new and explore how their personal lives impacted 20 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. On this 21 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: special episode of She Pivots, I had the honor of 22 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: sitting down with Tetiana Podo, a Ukrainian American who's worked 23 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: since the start of the Ukraine War as a civilian volunteer. 24 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: Her story is one of the many untold stories of 25 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: civilians who have helped defend Ukraine against Russia. After immigrating 26 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: to America as an attorney, her seemingly normal life working 27 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: for Spotify was uprooted when Russia invaded and her fifty 28 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: seven year old father volunteered to serve in the war. 29 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: Compelled to do her part for her country, Tetiana flew 30 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: to Ukraine and scraped together what connections and resources she 31 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: had to help her father's unit. Now over a year after, 32 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: I am honored to bring her story to you. So 33 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: we just wanted to give a little context to explain 34 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: how we know each other, how this all came to be, 35 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: how I almost actually went to Ukraine to interview you. 36 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: So it started. It started with Kaj Kaj. You and 37 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 1: I have known each other for a long time. 38 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, And then, as as per usual for our friendship, 39 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: I received a random call from you saying that there's 40 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: this major geopolitical issue and you know, you're interested in 41 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: people who might be. 42 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: Involved and engaged. 43 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: And honestly, the very first person that came to mind, 44 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 2: who had such an interesting backstory and was doing such 45 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: interesting work was Tetiana, and we had had the privilege 46 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 2: of meeting when I was over in Ukraine. We ended 47 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: up meeting each other in a cafe in Leviv, I think, 48 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 2: and in a hotel, hotel where all the international journalists diyed. 49 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was yes, it was during 50 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 3: the early days of the war, I remember, and Cash, 51 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 3: I just really want to applaud you because that's when 52 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 3: it was very dangerous and very few people were in 53 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: Ukraine and especially foreigners. I just remember you know that 54 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 3: we actually were walking during the air race siren and 55 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 3: we were looking for a place where we're going to 56 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 3: sit and talk and we couldn't. And then you said, oh, 57 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 3: I know one place. There is this hotel or you 58 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 3: can sit during the air race siren. And I was 59 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: like when we walked in there, I felt like I 60 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 3: was in a book, you know, like all these war books, 61 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 3: except it was reality. I remember we were introduced to 62 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 3: each other through mutual connection. Also an American and at 63 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 3: the time I was looking for a vest for the 64 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 3: vest for my dad's unit, and then you offered some help. 65 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 3: So that's how it went. 66 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 2: And I think Emily was so hard to describe. Is 67 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: that's how it was in the beginning of the war, 68 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: Like everybody just moving as fast as they could. You 69 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 2: met a random person who knew where some armored vests 70 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: were being stored, like I had Tatiana send like one 71 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: of the guys from her dad's unit to go check 72 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 2: it out. And like, you know, we fought, and we 73 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 2: bought that war with duct tape and dental floss and 74 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: that's how we did. But it was just kind of 75 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: the personal connections between people who cared, and I think 76 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: that's how our friendship started, and just the serendipity of 77 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: meeting like minded folks I think was actually, Look, the 78 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,559 Speaker 2: Ukrainian military is the one who has done the heavy 79 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: lifting in terms of the combat and the conflict, but 80 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: I think a lesser told story are these thousands of volunteers, 81 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: both American veterans, American civilians, American Ukrainian civilians like Tetana, 82 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 2: and then international volunteers who have acted as a force 83 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 2: multiplier to help that effort. And it's it's really pretty amazing. 84 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: So, Tatiana, why did you agree to do this interview? 85 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 3: It's been a year, you know, maybe it's not on 86 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: the front page of the news, but for me, it's 87 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 3: really horrible. It's still my father is there fighting. You know, 88 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 3: It's like you never get used to the fact that 89 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 3: every morning people you love are in danger. I don't 90 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 3: see that much of like personal stories, you know, of 91 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 3: regular people where there is a human face to this 92 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 3: whole war. Of course, I understand it's natural for a 93 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 3: lot of people. I mean for people in Ukraine. You know, 94 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 3: at some point it's just like so horrible that your 95 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 3: psyche is learning to adapt to this, right, but it's 96 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 3: still horrible and it's still going on, and I feel 97 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 3: it's really still important to talk about it, talk about 98 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 3: regular people who are living with this. And you know, 99 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 3: I'm just a person among many, many people. I'm just 100 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 3: like an example of many, many people. Because I think 101 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 3: this war is really a team effort, a team effort 102 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 3: of Ukrainian society. This is our fight together. 103 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 4: Russian invasion of Ukraine is underway. 104 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: War in Ukraine has started large scale military drills this morning. 105 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 5: And this is a very dangerous moment. 106 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 6: Stooking fears of an invasion. Ukrainian troops are proving to 107 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 6: be a tough underdog clawing back territory from Russia so much. 108 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 3: It's just like, no fear. 109 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 7: I don't feel anything. 110 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: On February twenty fourth, twenty twenty two, Russia invaded Ukraine, 111 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: another attack after nearly a century of ongoing strife between 112 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: the two countries, and Tatiana watched from Silicon Valley as 113 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: her home country fell into chaos. She was there just 114 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: ten days earlier, driving through Kiev with her father. 115 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 3: And I remember when I was driving through Kiev, I 116 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 3: was like, is it possible, Well, it's going to be worse. 117 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 3: It's not possible. Look at this, Like look at this 118 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 3: shopping wall. It's so beautiful, this building. 119 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: The life that she had built with her husband in 120 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: America was about to change forever. After moving to California 121 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: to gain her Masters of Law from UC Berkeley, ted 122 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: Tiana had a quiet but normal life in America. What 123 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: brought her here was an intense interest in democracy that 124 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: came from her childhood and made the war all the 125 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: more personal to her. 126 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 3: I've been always very passionate about the rule of law, 127 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 3: legal system, democracy, all of these values. I grew up 128 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 3: in bos Soviet Ukraine, but it was in independent Ukraine. 129 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 3: I always like to say that you know Ukraine and 130 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: I we are the same age. It was definitely hard 131 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 3: times in terms of poverty, but I also don't know 132 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 3: anything else than Ukraine. It was my country, so. 133 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: Were people in the US. What did poverty in a 134 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: post Soviet world look like when you're growing up. 135 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: Well, the story my dad likes to tell is that 136 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 3: when I was born, they couldn't get a blanket for me, 137 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 3: so they stood in lines waiting to buy a blanket 138 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 3: for hours and days, and I think some hyway they 139 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 3: got it. So I do remember poverty in a way 140 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 3: that there was not much choice. 141 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: Tetyana clearly remembers the constraints of post Soviet Ukraine from 142 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: her childhood and later saw the benefits of that freedom 143 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: for her sister, who's twelve years younger. Those memories, combined 144 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: with the stories of her grandparents and great grandparents, reminded 145 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: her that there's so much at stake in this war. 146 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 3: Yes, it's something very painful. And the stories that I 147 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 3: didn't really like to listen to, you know, when I 148 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 3: was little, because they are very very heartbreaking. So I 149 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 3: sort of started remembering them when the war started. And 150 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 3: you know how my grandmother she just like when the 151 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: war started. My grandmother was like, oh, this happened again, 152 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 3: but they did this to us when we were little. 153 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 3: She actually died this year. She was eighty nine, so 154 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: she said she experienced the Soviets coming to Ukraine and 155 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 3: her family. They used to have a lot of land 156 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 3: and the house and they were disowned everything and they 157 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 3: were put into a stable while the Russians, you know, 158 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 3: we lived in their house, and some of her siblings 159 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 3: actually died because they froze to death and were hungry. 160 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 3: So it's all sort of muddled in my head. But 161 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 3: I know for a fact that some of my great 162 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 3: grandparents were in Russian concentration cap gulags. That's where they 163 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 3: prosecuted Ukrainians and they called them nationalists because they spoke Ukrainian. So, 164 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 3: you know, recently a lot of countries recognize what Ukraine 165 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 3: went through in nineteen thirty two. So it was an 166 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 3: artificial servation and basically it was not the only ones. 167 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 3: So there were multiple ones, and they're called holodo more, 168 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 3: which is means death by starvation. 169 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 8: This is the story of the Holodomoor, a man made 170 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 8: famine and the worst that Ukraine has ever seen. 171 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 9: Famine hit several parts of the Soviet Union from nineteen 172 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 9: thirty two to nineteen thirty three, but in Ukraine it 173 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:51,239 Speaker 9: became known as the Holodomore, a term meaning death by starvation. 174 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 9: It was genocide carried out by a dictator who wanted 175 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 9: to keep Ukraine under his control. 176 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 3: And my great grandmother she was started to death and 177 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 3: that's how she died. So she's just like one of 178 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 3: the examples of many millions. I think it's like just 179 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 3: a one. In nineteen thirty two, it was six million 180 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 3: people who died, you know. Then also my grandmother died 181 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 3: in June was also she was you know, she was 182 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 3: grieving for my dad. For her, it was a shock. Basically, 183 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 3: she stopped eating and I think she was just she 184 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: died of because she felt so sad and depressed. And 185 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 3: I guess that's why Ukrainians are now so resistant to 186 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 3: this and fighting, because they know this has happened already 187 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 3: in the past, and then the history repeated itself. 188 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 8: We have gunfire and explosions have been heard here and 189 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 8: in the second city of Kharkiv. Shortly after the Russian 190 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 8: President Vladimir Putin authorized a special military operation in Ukraine's 191 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 8: don Bath. 192 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 6: Russia overnight launched its long anticipated attack on Ukraine, striking 193 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 6: military posts across the country. An unprovoked war in Europe 194 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 6: is now under way. 195 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: Soon she was back on a plane to Eastern Europe 196 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: to be with her family after putting in a request 197 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: for leave to Spotify, which they granted to support her 198 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: efforts from there. She had no idea the impact she 199 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: would have coordinating housing for refugees and the movement of 200 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: supplies to her father, who served as the deputy commander 201 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: in Ukraine's Territorial Defense Forces since the start of the war. 202 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 2: And look in the beginning it was, it was really 203 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: really terrifying. There was active conflict, in combat. You know, 204 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: we were rescuing hundreds of people a day, helping them 205 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 2: get out all women and children from Ukraine from the 206 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 2: east to pulland to say, into other European countries. 207 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 3: When I got to Ukraine, it was spring. It was 208 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 3: about March or April. My husband and I we flew 209 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 3: from the US to Poland. It was like we wanted 210 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,719 Speaker 3: to get my mom and sister out of Ukraine. That 211 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 3: was like the most dangerous times. Our hometown was getting 212 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 3: bombed many times, and also Belarus wanted to invade Averigion 213 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 3: at that time. And it was the first time I 214 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 3: saw Ukraine during war times, because the last time I 215 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 3: was in Ukraine it was in February and it was 216 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 3: just before the war. So, you know, like the atmosphere 217 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 3: was very intense. People didn't know what to expect. We 218 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 3: heard all of these news from the US and other 219 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 3: countries that there might be an imminent war. People didn't 220 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 3: believe that there would be a war. 221 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 10: From a national security perspective, there were a lot of 222 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 10: indicators prior to the invasion that Russia was going to 223 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 10: cross the line into Ukraine. There was intelligence reports, there 224 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 10: was troop movements, and there was of course the historical 225 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 10: context of what had happened in the Don Boston twenty 226 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 10: fourteen and the annexation of Crimea. Despite all of those indicators, 227 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 10: I think even among the community of national security professionals, 228 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 10: there was sort of a psychological disbelief that there could 229 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 10: be another major shooting war on the European continent. 230 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 4: Marking his first full year in office, mister Biden predicted 231 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 4: President Putin would move in on Ukraine, but said he 232 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 4: didn't think Moscow wanted a full blown war. Our Washington 233 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 4: correspondent Gary o' donahue. 234 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 7: Reports his troops have essentially surrounded Ukraine on three sides. 235 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 7: As many as one hundred thousand are stationed near the 236 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 7: border in Russia and Crimea, and now troops and fighter 237 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 7: jets have been sent to Belarus to stage military exercises 238 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 7: on Ukraine's northern border. 239 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 8: The invasion began on February twenty fourth. For months, Russia 240 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 8: had been massing troops on Ukraine's border. 241 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: Were people do they feel caught off guard? Even though 242 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: you've been, you know, semi thinking that Russia may move 243 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: in since twenty fourteen, did it still feel surprising? 244 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 3: Yes? I think it was surprising to all of us, 245 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 3: you know, even in February, as we all read the 246 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 3: news about the plans, you know, of Russia to invade Ukraine. 247 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 3: I was in Ukrainea on the February thirteenth, so ok, 248 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 3: ten days before the war. I was supposed to leave 249 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 3: Ukraine on February twentieth, but I moved my ticket to 250 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 3: February thirteenth because our airspace was being closed. 251 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: When the war started, Russia invaded from almost all fronts, 252 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: targeting cities across Ukraine. After the airspace closed. The only 253 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: way to get in or out was to cross the border. 254 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: But with active war zones throughout the country, she had 255 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: to be strategic. 256 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 2: But there's no playbook for how you enter a war zone. 257 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 2: You just have to figure it out. In those days, 258 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: it was the wild wild West, literally the wild walld 259 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: western Ukraine, and you had everybody like transitting in and 260 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 2: out to help. 261 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 3: When I came back, the airspace over Ukraine was closed. 262 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 3: The only way to come to Ukraine was through Poland 263 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 3: by car or by bus, and there were not so 264 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 3: many people entering Ukraine at the time. It was like 265 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 3: people were exiting Ukraine. There were lines. 266 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: How did you know even those steps of how to 267 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: cross the border. 268 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 3: The actual crossing the border was just the same. We 269 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 3: just gave out a passport. They stamped our passports, so 270 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 3: you know what. The situation on the border also changed, 271 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 3: and I was at that border many many times. So 272 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 3: the first time I was at the border during times 273 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 3: war times was in early March when I came to 274 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 3: the Polish border from the Polish side to bring my 275 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 3: mom and sister to balance. Nobody was entry Ukraine and 276 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 3: everybody was leaving and there were a lot of people. Well, 277 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 3: I was very shocked, honestly, so it was very very cold. 278 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 3: My mom and sister were standing in line. There were 279 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 3: so so many people, and like you know, all the 280 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 3: humanitarian aid and clothes everything and like food, all of 281 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 3: these things like that normally didn't like weren't there during 282 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: normal times. At that time, Ukraine allowed Ukrainians to cross 283 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 3: the border on foot. That's not normal, so at that time, 284 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 3: because there were so many Ukrainians, so my mom and 285 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 3: sister were waiting like maybe like five hours or so. 286 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 3: So my mom and sister just had like literally backpack, 287 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 3: so we had nothing. So they crossed the border, and 288 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 3: we had no idea at that point if they would 289 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 3: be returning to Ukraine. 290 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: At the time, the goal was simply to get her 291 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: mom and sister out quickly, not knowing what would happen next. Titiana, 292 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: her mom, and her sister spent three weeks in Poland. 293 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: After the situation changed, they decided it was time to 294 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: enter Ukraine, Titiana's first time seeing it since the war started. 295 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 3: At that time, like the border was like almost empty, 296 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 3: nobody was there. So that's when I entered Ukraine. When 297 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 3: we returned to Ukraine, you know. The first thing I 298 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 3: saw was like maybe like once we passed the border, 299 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 3: I saw a military checkpoint and that's where I realized, 300 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,479 Speaker 3: oh wow, this like there is war, you know, in Ukraine, 301 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 3: and it's just like all the streets I know so well. 302 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 3: And then it's like, you know, I'm like driving through 303 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 3: the country and I'm like, oh wow, so people are 304 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 3: just like walking on the streets, so that's kind of normal, 305 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, but then there is this billboard 306 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 3: and the billboard features Russian soldiers, and the billboard is like, oh, 307 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 3: Russian occupant, you have nothing to find here in Ukraine, 308 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 3: you know, like just go back, go back to Russia. 309 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 3: I remember my dad picked us up, so it was me, 310 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 3: my mom, and my sister, and there was also an 311 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 3: American ex marine. I was like, I remember I wanted 312 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 3: to buy something at the gas station and my dad 313 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 3: is like, oh, it cannot buy a guest like anything 314 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 3: right now because there is an air raid siren. And 315 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 3: then that evening we just drew to our house and 316 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 3: it was crazy because my mom hasn't been in our 317 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 3: house since the beginning of the war, and we weren't 318 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 3: like like it was very emotional we thought we would 319 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 3: never see a house again. 320 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: During this time, Tediana's family had two Americans staying with 321 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: them who were there to help with the war guests. 322 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: In her mother's eyes, we had. 323 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 3: That also American guest, like you know, staying with us 324 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 3: for two days or something. And my mom was like 325 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 3: what she started doing, She started like cleaning, she started 326 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 3: cleaning everything. And the crazy thing I also remember about 327 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: the evening was like we were like serving everything, like 328 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 3: food and everything and everything like kind of looks also normal. 329 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 3: But then at that time, like there is like a 330 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 3: real air rate siren that you can hear, like I 331 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 3: could hear. 332 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: The juxtaposition of having this almost normal feeling evening, like 333 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: hosting gas in your home with the beginning of a 334 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: war outside. 335 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what still puzzles me, okay, because some 336 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,479 Speaker 3: people say, oh, like Ukraine, there is just like a 337 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 3: normal life here, and to some extent, yes, that's how 338 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 3: people stay saying, you know, like go SEEI their family 339 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 3: or go buy food. Right, so that's kind of normal. 340 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 3: But then all the other things are totally not normal 341 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 3: because I'll tell you, you know, I go to the city 342 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 3: center and there's like this cathedral there's a price as 343 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 3: a ceremony for Dad soldiers from our region. So and 344 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 3: you can like you're walking on the street and hear 345 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 3: their name. You know, it's like life. I'm walking through 346 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 3: the city and there's somebody Dad to fighting, you know, 347 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 3: for all of us to have this normal life. So 348 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 3: that's how I would describe this the reality in Ukraine. 349 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: Tatiana was doing her best to do her part to 350 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: help in the war and first started to help refugees 351 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: find living accommodations all over Europe. 352 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 3: I remember I was like just writing to all of 353 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 3: my friends like, oh, I have this person, can you 354 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 3: please host them in Sweden? And then my coworker from 355 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 3: Spotify and Munich also hosted somebody in Munich. It was 356 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 3: such a huge startup, and I think this is for 357 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 3: all Ukrainians. I just write on Facebook something like, oh 358 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 3: I need somebody to buy this and to pick up 359 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 3: something there and then and sur randomly, some Ukrainian in 360 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 3: Frankfort would go to Frankfort and pick up, like I 361 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 3: don't know, something like some T shirts and drive them 362 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 3: to Ukraine. As I was in Poland, I was very 363 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 3: busy with all of this. 364 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: Soon it became clear there was more to do, and 365 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: she began procuring any and all supplies needed for her 366 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: father's unit. It started with a grassroots effort to raise 367 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: thirteen thousand dollars to deliver over one hundred pairs of 368 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: combat boots to the front line. 369 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 3: So the story with the butts was like, oh, my godmother, 370 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 3: she had business partner from whom she bought shoes because 371 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 3: she's in this business of you know, she sells sportswear 372 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 3: in Ukraine. My dad's unit needed that and she was like, Okay, 373 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 3: I'm just going to buy those boots from him, but 374 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 3: I need money. So my husband and I were raising 375 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 3: money to buy boots from my dad's you need And. 376 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: When you started raising money to buy boots and armor 377 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: for your father's unit, did you just do that all 378 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: on your own or was there a sense of within 379 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian network of people saying, hey, this is needed, 380 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: can people go out and get us supplies? 381 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 3: Was more like through talking to my dad or to 382 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 3: the commander. So, okay, I asked all of my friends 383 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 3: in my network and they just like you know, sent 384 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 3: money directly to the merchant, and then you know, my 385 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 3: godmother picked it up. And then but for something else. 386 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 3: It was also like okay, we need to buy this 387 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 3: from somebody and somebody just like so it wasn't like 388 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 3: through some organization and every project was just had a 389 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 3: different structure different people. Like for example, I went to 390 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 3: some of the Ukraine Now meetings. It's one of the 391 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 3: NGOs with a lot of volunteers, and I just said, oh, 392 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 3: I'm here in Bolin region. My dad is in you know, 393 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 3: in the Ukrainian Army and they need this and that, 394 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 3: and then some lady was like, oh, sure, I can 395 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 3: just bring a lot of helmets to him, and I'm 396 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 3: like great. 397 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: Her father is one of the highest in command. But 398 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: before running the Territorial Defense Forces, he was a well 399 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: known journalist in Ukraine, famous for his sharp criticism of 400 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: the government. 401 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 3: My dad he also pivoted and he was a real 402 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 3: like pivot because he is a journalist, you know, all 403 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 3: of his life he's been a journalist in Ukraine. He 404 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 3: is like a chief editor of a regional newspaper and 405 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 3: worked for many other newspapers and k he got a 406 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 3: lot of awards in Ukraine. There is something like a 407 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 3: recognized journalist in Ukraine is like the highest award professional 408 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 3: award in Ukraine. And he's also part of multiple organizations, 409 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 3: nonprofit organizations that work a lot with international media outlets. 410 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: So he had never been in the military before. 411 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 3: No, but like you know, he's been forcefully drafted as 412 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 3: all citizens of Soviet Union, he has been drafted, and 413 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 3: you know, he was in Siberia and he's still traumatized 414 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 3: from those times too. He knows how Russia is he 415 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 3: when sometimes he tells the stories, it's pretty horrifying. 416 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: This was during the time when Ukraine was a republic 417 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union. 418 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 3: He was a child, he was eighteen years old. All 419 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 3: male citizens of Soviet Union were forced to like you know, 420 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 3: like I don't even know military service or something. Yeah, 421 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 3: So he's like like a regular citizen and just like 422 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 3: within the last year he joined the Jory of Defense Unit. 423 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,479 Speaker 1: Since we recorded this interview, Tediana's father suffered an injury 424 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: to both hands that required surgery. Tetiana contacted me to 425 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: try to use American contacts to get him sent back home, 426 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: but wars relentless, so they sent him back to the 427 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: front without time for proper surgery. 428 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 3: He continued serving. He does still have some health concerns 429 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 3: and I guess. It was for me very surprising when 430 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 3: he got redeployed, because we were hoping he would go 431 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 3: through surgery. But exactly during the week when he was 432 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 3: supposed to go to the doctor, his unit suddenly got 433 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 3: redeployed to the east. And that was like really hard 434 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 3: for me and shocking. You know, he's been serving honorably 435 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 3: for about a year. You know, he's also a senior guy, 436 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 3: fifty seven years old. You know, so I don't see 437 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 3: I almost never see him. I asked my dad, Oh, 438 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 3: so where are you. I know that here's somewhere, but 439 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 3: like some approximately where, but like I don't know really where. 440 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 3: He doesn't tell us. 441 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: You know, did you feel safe when you went there 442 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: the few times that you did go to the unit. 443 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 3: Yes, I did. I felt like because there's no active 444 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 3: back here in our region and you're quite close to Belarus, 445 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 3: But it didn't feel that bad. You know. 446 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 10: Belarus is actually an important strategic component of the Russian 447 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 10: invasion of Ukraine. First, you have the historically close relationship 448 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 10: between Belarusian President Lukashenko and Vladimir Putin. They are allies, 449 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 10: and there was always a concern going back to the 450 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 10: very early days of the war that the presence of 451 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 10: Russian troops and Russian military equipment in Belarus meant that 452 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 10: there could be an invasion from the north. There was 453 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 10: also always and still present to this day, the threat 454 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 10: that Belarus would join the Russian coalition and invade from 455 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 10: the northern part of Ukraine. This is really strategically significant 456 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 10: because it's always forced the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense in 457 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 10: the Ukrainian military to pay special attention to the northern 458 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 10: border with Belarus and divide the focus of their efforts 459 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 10: and their resources in case that happened. Additionally, it had 460 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 10: pretty severe psychological consequences for the Ukrainian people. The Ukrainian 461 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 10: population that live in the regions close to the Belarusian border, 462 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 10: they have always lived and to this day, under the 463 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 10: threat of the idea that there could be an invasion 464 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 10: from their neighbors to the north. 465 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 3: Well, because Key region and the north was invaded through Belarus. 466 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 3: All of the rockets are flying from Belarus, and there 467 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 3: are Russian troops on the border between Ukraine and Belarus, 468 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 3: and basically what's happening there are Russian troops very close by. 469 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 3: So that's why our region is like a lot of 470 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 3: people are scared. So the thing is that even internal migration, 471 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 3: if you look at my internal migration, a lot of 472 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 3: people from eastern part of Ukraine migrated to western part, 473 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 3: but not so many to my region exactly because of 474 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 3: the border with Belarus. And there were like everybody was 475 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 3: scared of in Asian from Belarus that they would just 476 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 3: do the same they did in Kiev and Chernihiv region. 477 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 5: The Bielarus Ukraine border has been a strategic location for 478 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 5: Russia since it invaded Ukraine a year ago. One of 479 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 5: the Russian leaders staunchest allies, Alexander Lukashenka of Belarus, has 480 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 5: told the BBC he'd be willing to allow Russia to 481 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 5: launch a fresh ground assault from his country. 482 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 3: I could divide this last six months to like three stages. 483 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 3: Like first stage was like I had, like it was 484 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,239 Speaker 3: a shock, but like also a lot of energy. I 485 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 3: was like I don't know what happened to me, but 486 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 3: I was like, oh now I'm going to fight, like 487 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 3: I'm going to do whatever it takes. So I didn't 488 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 3: sleep and I was working and doing everything the same 489 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 3: like you know, when I came here, I was very 490 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 3: very active. And then at some point I was depressed. 491 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 3: I was depressed. I felt apathy. I just want to 492 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 3: cry all the time. I couldn't just understand what's going 493 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 3: on when I saw, you know, what's happening to Ukraine, 494 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 3: how it's getting destroyed, you know, and every day there's 495 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 3: like all of these stare acts. There is only as 496 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 3: much you can take. And at some point it was 497 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 3: like I just couldn't function. And the third one, I 498 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 3: just like started like slowly returning to normal life, if 499 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 3: you can say, in normal life, by doing just like this, 500 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 3: normal things, you know, a meeting with friends, and slowly 501 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 3: just like, okay, now I can focus. I used to 502 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 3: read so much and I couldn't read. I started drawing. 503 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 3: It also helped me, i don't know, painting, and also 504 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 3: helped me emotionally, So you know, it's just like slowly 505 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 3: returning to the times before the war. But of course 506 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 3: it's like it's something that we'll never forget. Everybody knows 507 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,479 Speaker 3: somebody who died, everybody. It's like this war is really 508 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 3: real for all of us, but people are not scared. 509 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 3: If anything, people are very committed to victory. It's like 510 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 3: people a grieve whenever something bad happened. It feels personal. 511 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,959 Speaker 3: I don't know when they drink the toast and they 512 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 3: say to victory, to. 513 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: Victory, Tatiana, thank you so much for joining us and 514 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: for sharing so much with us. We really appreciate it 515 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: and thank you. It was a true honor to interview 516 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: Tetiana over the course of six months. She has since 517 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: left Ukraine after her leave from Spotify ended, and is 518 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: living in London. Tetana continues to do her part in 519 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: the war effort and to help her family. Over the 520 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: course of these six months, much has changed on the 521 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: Ukraine front, and hopefully more change will come soon. Since 522 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: the start of the war over a year ago, Ukraine 523 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: has put up a hard fight, something Russia did not 524 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: expect when they first attacked. Unjust and unprovoked actions are 525 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: against international norms, and through the support of people like Tatiana, 526 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: the country continues to hold its own. If you're able 527 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: to give, please consider donating. We have links on our 528 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: Instagram at she Pivots the podcast. Thanks for listening to 529 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: this episode of She Pivots, where I talk with women 530 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: about how their experiences and significant personal events led to 531 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: their pivot and eventually their success. Be sure to follow 532 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at she pivots the podcast and leave 533 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: a rating and comment if you enjoyed this episode to 534 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: help others learn about it. A special thank you to 535 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,479 Speaker 1: our partner Marie Claire and the team that made this 536 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: episode possible. Talk to you next week. She Pivots is 537 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: hosted by me Emily Tish Sussman, produced by Emily Eda Voloshik, 538 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: with sound editing and mixing from Nina Pollok and re 539 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: surgent planning from Christine Dickinson and Hannah Cousins. 540 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 9: I endorse Cheap Pivots.