Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
Speaker 1: in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy zefphnvest start
Speaker 1: changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: Podcasting It's a way of life. Hashtag living, hashtag blessed.
Speaker 3: Hashtag podcast life.
Speaker 2: Oh this is me posting a screenshot of our zoom
Speaker 2: call right now. Podcast co hosts were like siblings hashtag
Speaker 2: podcast life.
Speaker 3: Wow beautiful hashtag sisters.
Speaker 2: We are hashtag sisters. Oh my god.
Speaker 3: Anyway, hello and welcome hi to the Bechdel Cast. My
Speaker 3: name is Caitlin Daronte.
Speaker 2: We're definitely not going to kill each other. No, my
Speaker 2: name's Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where we
Speaker 2: take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional
Speaker 2: feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test as a jumping off
Speaker 2: point for discussion.
Speaker 4: But Caitlin, my sister. Hashtag sisters, podcast sister. What is
Speaker 4: the hashtag Bechdel Test? Oh my gosh, hashtag cinema hashtag discourse.
Speaker 3: The hashtag Bechdel Test is a hashtag media metric created
Speaker 3: by at Ilison Bechdel. Actually I don't know if that's
Speaker 3: her handle or not off the top of my head,
Speaker 3: but anyway, it is a media metric that requires our
Speaker 3: version that two characters of a marginalized gender have names,
Speaker 3: they speak to each other, and their conversation is about
Speaker 3: something other than a man. And ideally, for our sake,
Speaker 3: we like it when it's a narratively substantial conversation and
Speaker 3: not like throwaway dialogue.
Speaker 2: And today we are covering a movie that we got
Speaker 2: a lot of requests for when it first came out,
Speaker 2: and we said no, But now we're saying yes. And
Speaker 2: here's why I am starting a podcast hashtag Brave whoa
Speaker 2: hashtag another podcast, another hashtag podcast. It started releasing on
Speaker 2: May seventh, and it's a weekly show where I profile
Speaker 2: a character of the day on the Internet. So think
Speaker 2: for the first couple of episodes, we're talking about Antoine Donson,
Speaker 2: we're talking about the dress, We're talking about the Boston
Speaker 2: slide cop who slip slapped, flip flopped down the damn slide.
Speaker 2: So it is a half reported, half interview show where
Speaker 2: each week we take a look at not just the
Speaker 2: character and what happened and why they were so notorious,
Speaker 2: but also getting into internet history, why did the algorithm
Speaker 2: serve you this person at this time, and a little
Speaker 2: bit of like a look or an attempt at a
Speaker 2: look into why did this person suddenly enter your life
Speaker 2: to try to upset you on social media even if
Speaker 2: they didn't usually completely unintentionally. So yeah, it's a little
Speaker 2: internet history show. I'm really really excited about it. It's
Speaker 2: also produced by Sophie Lichterman. We've been cooking on it
Speaker 2: for a while and it started to come out. I'm
Speaker 2: really excited. Yay me too, Thank you. The trailer has
Speaker 2: dropped in our feet already. But if you haven't subscribed,
Speaker 2: hashtag subscribe, hashtag like and subscribe, I'll say it. Hashtag
Speaker 2: like and subscribe and follow me on Instagram for weekly
Speaker 2: updates about the new episodes. And so we wanted to
Speaker 2: put together an episode that would sort of jive with
Speaker 2: the idea of the show about being extremely online. And
Speaker 2: there are not as many movies about this as I
Speaker 2: thought there were, I'll be honest. So this was certainly
Speaker 2: the movie we've gotten the most requests for that is
Speaker 2: about the Internet. There's a few others. A lot of
Speaker 2: them are like do you remember that documentary that came
Speaker 2: out on Netflix in it might have been twenty twenty
Speaker 2: scary that was called like the Social Dilemma. I remember that.
Speaker 3: As I didn't watch all of it. I started it
Speaker 3: and then I was like, I don't feel good about this.
Speaker 2: It was so corny. I feel like there's like always
Speaker 2: sort of this overly simplistic message with movies like this
Speaker 2: where they're like phone bad and person who use phone
Speaker 2: bad as well, and you're like, so, anyways, there's like
Speaker 2: some documentaries about it. There's a movie I haven't seen
Speaker 2: called Not Okay that came out a couple of years
Speaker 2: that also touches on this theme, but we had not
Speaker 2: seen it and we got a request for it. So
Speaker 2: we are covering today a movie that it was really
Speaker 2: interesting to revisit for me, Ingrid Goes West, which came
Speaker 2: out in twenty seventeen. Aubrey Plaza and Elizabeth Olsen both
Speaker 2: firing on all cylinders. Yes, Caitlyn, what's your history with
Speaker 2: Ingrid Goes West twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3: I didn't see it in theaters, but I saw it
Speaker 3: within a year of it coming out, and I will
Speaker 3: say that and this is just a kind of personal
Speaker 3: taste sort of thing. But I tend to really struggle
Speaker 3: with movies where every single character is unlikable and just
Speaker 3: like you're cringing at them the whole time. And I
Speaker 3: know that that's the point of this movie, and we'll
Speaker 3: talk a lot more about it, and I think there
Speaker 3: is some interesting commentary on social media and its effects
Speaker 3: from this movie. But it's such a stressful movie for
Speaker 3: me to watch.
Speaker 2: It's so like it's like a thriller, Like, yeah, truly,
Speaker 2: I think it is. Like when the movie ended, I
Speaker 2: felt like I didn't realize how tight my chest had gotten.
Speaker 2: Uh huh, Which, even though I don't love everything about
Speaker 2: this movie, I was like, well, I guess it was
Speaker 2: effective in making my body hurt, like WHI is wild.
Speaker 3: Yeah, to the point where I watch every movie at
Speaker 3: least twice to prep for every episode we do. And
Speaker 3: after my first watch of this, I was like, I
Speaker 3: don't think I can watch this again. I'm too stressed out.
Speaker 3: But I did anyway, So you're welcome, listeners. Brave hashtag
Speaker 3: brave hashtag's so brave. But yeah, it's a very stressful
Speaker 3: movie for me, So I didn't revisit it after seeing
Speaker 3: it that first time, back in either twenty seventeen or
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, even though I think it has like good
Speaker 3: performances and you know, it's a good script and things
Speaker 3: like that. But yeah, too stressful. But prepping for this
Speaker 3: episode was interesting and I'm excited to talk about it too.
Speaker 3: What is your relationship with the movie.
Speaker 2: I saw this when it came out ish, same deal
Speaker 2: within a year. I don't think I saw it in theaters,
Speaker 2: but I am an Aubrey Plaza fan. She was like
Speaker 2: working a lot during this time. But I wanted to
Speaker 2: see it because I was like, oh, I've never seen
Speaker 2: a movie about this before, and I feel like it
Speaker 2: is kind of doing a talented mister Ripley thing but
Speaker 2: for the internet, you know. I was like, Okay, this
Speaker 2: is a cool concept. But I really didn't like it
Speaker 2: the first time I saw it, and as I was watching,
Speaker 2: I was trying to remember exactly why. And I do
Speaker 2: think there's still things I don't like about this movie,
Speaker 2: and there are still things that feel very like, yeah,
Speaker 2: two men wrote this movie, for sure, But I liked it.
Speaker 2: But when I say I liked, I mean it's like
Speaker 2: hard to enjoy this movie because it is trying to
Speaker 2: give you a panic attack in the same way that
Speaker 2: I feel like Uncut Gems is trying to give you
Speaker 2: a panic attack. Yes, yes, which you know means that
Speaker 2: they're doing what they're supposed to be doing, and you know,
Speaker 2: the whole time, I was like, I remember what happens
Speaker 2: with Ingrid, but I'm so scared for literally everyone on
Speaker 2: screen at all times.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: But I liked it more this time, and I feel
Speaker 2: like this movie is aging in an interesting way. I
Speaker 2: feel like at the time, outside of the criticism that
Speaker 2: I think is still valid of like la la la,
Speaker 2: women are so petty. On the revisit, I like the
Speaker 2: script more. Everyone in this movie is petty to some degree,
Speaker 2: and I think I hyper focused on that at the
Speaker 2: time and it makes me feel like old. But I
Speaker 2: think that at the time I saw this, I was like,
Speaker 2: this is so cynical about the Internet, and I think
Speaker 2: I just had more faith in the Internet when I
Speaker 2: saw this movie for the first time than I do now,
Speaker 2: Like I think that that was a big thing. I
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, of course everyone is lying on social media.
Speaker 2: It was true then, it was true. Now It's not
Speaker 2: like I didn't know that, but I just felt like
Speaker 2: I still felt some kind of optimism about the Internet
Speaker 2: that I no longer feel. So I think that the
Speaker 2: story just in general kind of worked better for me
Speaker 2: this time. Yeah, but yeah, it's a tricky little movie.
Speaker 2: I uh sure is. I really enjoyed writing for this,
Speaker 2: especially like, yeah, because I've been spending the last couple
Speaker 2: of months thinking about, you know, like what makes an
Speaker 2: Internet character of the day, how do these conversations online go.
Speaker 2: I was going back to like letterbox reviews at the time,
Speaker 2: and I was not alone in thinking that this movie
Speaker 2: was like maybe dismissive towards millennials in general, of like, oh,
Speaker 2: a lot of the reviews I was seeing from people
Speaker 2: I know people I didn't know were like, we get it,
Speaker 2: phone bad, too much Instagram blah blah blah. But it
Speaker 2: felt easier to brush off then. And maybe that's just
Speaker 2: because social media has gotten so much worse since twenty seventeen,
Speaker 2: and this movie has obviously a very uncharitable opinion of
Speaker 2: social media. I feel like people I know who didn't
Speaker 2: like this or like rolled their eyes at it at
Speaker 2: the time might like it better now. I think, I
Speaker 2: don't know, Yeah, yeah, I would be curious because I
Speaker 2: don't think that. I mean, it wasn't a popular enough
Speaker 2: movie that I don't think anyone has really revisited it.
Speaker 2: But it's weirdly like one of the only movies of
Speaker 2: this genre at least that I've seen.
Speaker 3: Same. Yeah, it's quite unlike most things. Yeah, I said
Speaker 3: brilliantly hashtag brilliant.
Speaker 2: Hashtag genius. I also think I didn't know who Whyatt
Speaker 2: Russell was the last time I saw this movie. I
Speaker 2: think the main thing this movie did for me at
Speaker 2: the time is made me a fan of Oh Jackson Junior.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think this was also the first thing I
Speaker 3: saw him. And I can't remember if I saw when
Speaker 3: did Straight Out of Compton come out?
Speaker 2: That came out in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 3: Okay, so maybe I had already seen him in that.
Speaker 2: I had seen him in that, But that movie is
Speaker 2: just like what isn't very good? Yeah, I love f
Speaker 2: Gary Gray, but I've liked them. I don't think anyone
Speaker 2: thought that movie was very good. In any case, this movie,
Speaker 2: I just wanted to shout out and oops, all nepotism
Speaker 2: cast with You've got Osha Jackson Junior.
Speaker 3: Yeah, an ice cube, you've.
Speaker 2: Got Elizabeth Olsen the older younger ooh, younger sister, I
Speaker 2: think of the Olsen twins.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yes, she's younger, younger, she's born in nineteen eighty nine. Wow,
Speaker 2: she is younger than I thought. And then Wyatt Russell,
Speaker 2: who's double NEPO Kurt Russell and Goldie Hans.
Speaker 3: Oh, I did not realize that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is majority NEPO cast. No judgment. I'm
Speaker 2: just saying it's funny. And I don't think I knew
Speaker 2: that at the time. I knew who Osha Jackson Junior was.
Speaker 2: I don't really care about Marvel movies, so this might
Speaker 2: have been the first movie I saw Elizabeth Olsen in
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 3: Well. Other her Marvel connection is the actor who plays
Speaker 3: Harley Chung. Her name is Tom Clement type it is
Speaker 3: maybe how you U say it. She plays Mantis in
Speaker 3: We'll see in the Other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, boy does she I did not connect that at all. Wow.
Speaker 2: So we've got a lot of Marvel, We've got a
Speaker 2: lot of NEPO. We've also got Billy Magnuson, who I
Speaker 2: think is neither but I like him. But boy, is
Speaker 2: his character a piece of shit? I was like, horrible,
Speaker 2: sort of rooting for Ingrid to finish him off. But yeah, anyways,
Speaker 2: the movie. The movie.
Speaker 3: Well, let's take a quick break and we'll come back
Speaker 3: to recap.
Speaker 2: And we're back, all right.
Speaker 3: So here's the recap. I will place a content warning
Speaker 3: at the top here for suicide. We meet Ingrid Sorburne
Speaker 3: played by Abby Plaza. She is crying and scrolling through
Speaker 3: Instagram photos of a wedding of someone named Charlotte. Then
Speaker 3: we get the reveal that Ingrid is at the wedding,
Speaker 3: crashing it, and she walks up to the bride, Charlotte,
Speaker 3: and Pepper sprays her and says like, thanks for inviting me,
Speaker 3: you fucking kunt, which does pass the Bechdel test.
Speaker 2: I thought that too, yay, okay.
Speaker 3: So then we see Ingrid in a psychiatric hospital and
Speaker 3: she's still attempting to contact Charlotte via a letter I think,
Speaker 3: in which we learn that Ingrid's mom has recently passed away.
Speaker 3: Then Ingrid is released from the hospital and we see
Speaker 3: her continue to obsessively scroll through Instagram. Then she sees
Speaker 3: a magazine article about someone named Taylor Sloan played by
Speaker 3: Elizabeth Olsen. Taylor is an influencer with over two hundred
Speaker 3: and fifty thousand followers on Instagram. She lives in LA
Speaker 3: She's very attractive, she has cute stuff, and she posts
Speaker 3: photos of her life on Instagram, of her clothes, her meals,
Speaker 3: her husband, her dog. You know, typical influencer stuff.
Speaker 2: I remember vaguely, and listeners, let us know if you
Speaker 2: agree that it felt a little dated even in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2: I feel like it's like sort of like early early Instagram,
Speaker 2: where it's like heavy on the filters, a lot of food,
Speaker 2: a lot of hashtags, and like even by twenty seventeen
Speaker 2: that wasn't really happening, but it did feel like going
Speaker 2: in like a little social media spaceship into the past,
Speaker 2: because people don't really do that now. They're like conspiracy
Speaker 2: theorists or podcasters or both or both.
Speaker 3: I can't super speak to it because I've never been
Speaker 3: very active on Instagram and I only started using it
Speaker 3: around the time this movie came out. What if this
Speaker 3: movie inspired me to start on Instagram.
Speaker 2: I think I started using it like in Earnest in
Speaker 2: like twenty fifteen. Okay, but even that was like a
Speaker 2: little bit after. I feel like this peak kind of influencer,
Speaker 2: but it's interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is interesting. Yeah, I was not, and I'm
Speaker 3: still not a big user of the platform, and mostly
Speaker 3: I just use it to get news and look at
Speaker 3: cat videos. So those are my influencers.
Speaker 2: I mean same.
Speaker 3: Okay. So Ingrid is reading about Taylor Sloan and scrolling
Speaker 3: through her Instagram and she is mesmerized by what she sees,
Speaker 3: you know, this glamorous southern California life. And Ingrid comments
Speaker 3: on a post of Taylor's which is a photo of
Speaker 3: avocado toast.
Speaker 2: Hashtag millennials, that's how our generation ruined the economy. I
Speaker 2: loved that storyline.
Speaker 3: That's why we aren't paying back our student loans because
Speaker 3: we're spending all of our money on avocado toast.
Speaker 2: Yeah damn, We're so messy anyways.
Speaker 3: Right, So then Ingrid is out getting groceries and she
Speaker 3: overhears one of Charlotte's friends talking about Ingrid saying that
Speaker 3: she and Charlotte weren't even friends. That Ingrid basically instagram
Speaker 3: stocked Charlotte and we're like, hmm, that's interesting. And Ingrid
Speaker 3: is crying about this, But then she sees that Taylor
Speaker 3: has responded to her comment, recommending that she try out
Speaker 3: a particular restaurant the next time she's in LA, and
Speaker 3: Ingrid is thrilled, and this seems to prompt Ingrid to
Speaker 3: move to LA, especially after she receives somewhere around a
Speaker 3: like sixty thousand dollars inheritance or like life insurance payout
Speaker 3: or something of that nature after her mom passed away.
Speaker 3: So she arrives in LA and rents an apartment from
Speaker 3: Dan Pinto played by oh Jackson Jr. He is an
Speaker 3: aspiring screenwriter who is obsessed with Batman. Hilarious Yeah, I mean, great.
Speaker 2: Character and also oh my god, like again just another
Speaker 2: anxiety inducing person. Yes, like aspiring screenwriter slash landlord as
Speaker 2: such a stressful m description.
Speaker 3: The thing though about all of these characters is they
Speaker 3: are not even really caricatures of a lot of LA people.
Speaker 3: Like everyone in this I'm like, yeah, I've encountered someone
Speaker 3: pretty much exactly like that here in La.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So so there's that anyway. So Ingrid is now living
Speaker 3: in LA and she starts going to the shops and
Speaker 3: restaurants and salons that Taylor posts about on social media.
Speaker 3: She reads the same books as Taylor, she buys the
Speaker 3: same stuff. All of that I like that.
Speaker 2: Taylor is so us in the sense that she lies
Speaker 2: about reading books.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, we're supposed to be mad about
Speaker 2: that she's busy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we find out that she's never She claims that
Speaker 3: The Deer Park is her favorite book, and then we
Speaker 3: find out she's never read it, and we're like.
Speaker 2: Wow, oh well, oh well, we.
Speaker 3: Don't read books either, Taylor. It's okay. So then one
Speaker 3: day Ingrid bumps into Taylor at a store, and Ingrid
Speaker 3: is trying to act cool but also like trying to
Speaker 3: get Taylor to notice her, and Taylor definitely does notice her,
Speaker 3: but it's because Ingrid is not acting cool. She's being
Speaker 3: very awkward. She almost like absent mindedly shoplifts, you know,
Speaker 3: stuff like that.
Speaker 2: She's doing Aubrey Plaza. This is what Aubrey Plaza characters
Speaker 2: do at this time, and I'm still kind of yeah.
Speaker 3: So then Ingrid stalks Taylor to her house and stays
Speaker 3: there all day, and then when Taylor leaves to go
Speaker 3: out that night, Ingrid kidnaps her dog so that she
Speaker 3: can return the dog to Taylor and seem like a hero,
Speaker 3: which works. Taylor and her husband, Ezra played by Wyatt
Speaker 3: Russell are so grateful and they're like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: let us make you dinner. So Ingrid stays for dinner.
Speaker 3: They're having a nice time, and Ingrid does whatever she
Speaker 3: can to endear herself to them. She buys a piece
Speaker 3: of Ezra's art, which is ugly.
Speaker 2: She it's bad.
Speaker 3: It's not good.
Speaker 2: If we can't say that men's art is bad on
Speaker 2: this show, why do we even start it? Yeah, this
Speaker 2: is where she goes full mister Ripley mode, because even
Speaker 2: though she's socially awkward, she's really great at intuiting. Although
Speaker 2: at some point I will say, I mean, it's just
Speaker 2: it's not a feminist criticism of the movie. But at
Speaker 2: some point during the middle of this movie, I'm like,
Speaker 2: would she continue to get away with this? Like, if
Speaker 2: I'm Elizabeth Olsen, once I see that she has a
Speaker 2: gun with her, I'm like, I'm gonna get out of here.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna leave, you would think yeah.
Speaker 2: But anyways, she's ripleying. She's working on another level.
Speaker 3: Because she also offers to haul their trailer to the
Speaker 3: house they have in Joshua Tree because they need someone
Speaker 3: with a truck. Only Ingrid doesn't have a truck, but
Speaker 3: her landlord Dan Pinto does so she asks to borrow
Speaker 3: it and he is reluctant, but he also has a
Speaker 3: crush on her and agrees to lend Ingrid the truck
Speaker 3: if she plays Catwoman in an upcoming table read for
Speaker 3: his unauthorized Batman screenplay.
Speaker 2: They are so stressful, as like, she does him dirty
Speaker 2: time and time again. She's the worst, But it is
Speaker 2: also so mean to ask someone to do a Batman
Speaker 2: table read with you.
Speaker 3: True, although I was kind of taking inventory of all
Speaker 3: of the characters, and then I was trying to think, like,
Speaker 3: of these people, if I had to be friends with
Speaker 3: one of them, Oh, who would it be? And it
Speaker 3: would be him and we would just talk about Batman.
Speaker 3: I guess it would be him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would see him like once every three months
Speaker 2: and be kind of exhausted at the end of the hang,
Speaker 2: but be like he's a nice guy. Whatever. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: wish it wasn't a landlord, but times are tough. I
Speaker 2: guess it's like, yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, he's not selling his illegal Batman scripts that he's writing,
Speaker 3: so he's got to make money somehow.
Speaker 2: It's true. God, landlords with dreams.
Speaker 3: Gross anyway, So Ingrid gets the truck and takes Taylor
Speaker 3: and her trailer, which I think should be the name
Speaker 3: of a hashtag podcast.
Speaker 2: Maybe a Taylor's Swift the podcast.
Speaker 3: She takes them to Joshua Tree, except that she pretends
Speaker 3: it's her truck slash that she's borrowing it from her
Speaker 3: boyfriend Dan. She makes up a story about how Dan
Speaker 3: is actually her boyfriend.
Speaker 2: I do like this is just like something I think
Speaker 2: is fun in movies where for no reason at all,
Speaker 2: a character is almost always referred to as their full name,
Speaker 2: And like Dan Pinto, just like it just trips off
Speaker 2: the tongue, and people just love to say. They don't
Speaker 2: want to just say Dan, They want to say Dan Pinto.
Speaker 3: Dan is not enough syllables. You need the whole thing,
Speaker 3: Dan Pinto's true.
Speaker 2: You need to keep the momentum going exactly. He doesn't
Speaker 2: seem bothered by it, so.
Speaker 3: Whatever, Yeah, okay. So on the way to Joshua Tree,
Speaker 3: Taylor is like, oh my god, Ingrid, you're so funny.
Speaker 3: I love you. You're my favorite person. Let's take pictures together.
Speaker 3: And obviously Ingrid is loving this, and Ingrid bails on
Speaker 3: Dan Pinto's Batman script. Table read in favor of spending
Speaker 3: more time with Taylor. They do cocaine, they go out dancing,
Speaker 3: they're bonding, and on the way to the Joshua Tree house,
Speaker 3: Ingrid fucks up Dan's truck because they're so distracted by singing.
Speaker 3: Casey and JoJo's all my life to each other, and
Speaker 3: so the truck is all fucked up, and Taylor's like,
Speaker 3: don't even worry about it. Everything's gonna be fine. And
Speaker 3: then Taylor tells Ingrid a secret that she plans to
Speaker 3: buy the house next door in Joshua Tree and open
Speaker 3: up a boutique hotel where everything inside is for sale,
Speaker 3: which sounds I hate it, but yeah, well no, it
Speaker 3: sounds horrible.
Speaker 2: Horrible, I mean horrible. Yeah, that's like something that changed
Speaker 2: between my first view the first time I saw this
Speaker 2: movie and now you're like, oh, everyone in this movie
Speaker 2: is horrible. Yes, because maybe I felt like the writing
Speaker 2: was on the side of her, her husband, but on
Speaker 2: a rewatch, I actually think this movie is on the
Speaker 2: side of nobody. It's a pretty cynical. Yeah, like everyone
Speaker 2: sucks Her idea for an influencer hotel is horrible. Truly,
Speaker 2: it's gross, but I'm sure it would have worked. I
Speaker 2: mean for sure. I mean like that feels very like
Speaker 2: Joshua Tree gentrification vibes, you know, for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Ingrid is like, oh my god, it's the
Speaker 3: best idea of ever Taylor. And Taylor doesn't want her
Speaker 3: husband Ezra to know about this because of financial reasons,
Speaker 3: so now they have this little secret. The next day,
Speaker 3: they return to La and Ingrid drops off Dan's truck.
Speaker 3: He's furious at her for bailing on the table read
Speaker 3: and leaving this huge scratch on the truck.
Speaker 2: This is the point where you're just like, does she
Speaker 2: really get out of this scrap in real life? But
Speaker 2: I guess I never underestimate a horny straight guy, Like
Speaker 2: maybe I don't know.
Speaker 3: Right, it causes like he says, eight thousand dollars of
Speaker 3: damage to his truck, and he forgives her because she's like,
Speaker 3: let's go on a date and he's like, Okay, I
Speaker 3: like you and I want to have sex with you.
Speaker 2: So dude's rock.
Speaker 3: But he's like yelling at her in this scene, but
Speaker 3: she doesn't even freaking care because she has just gotten
Speaker 3: a notification that Taylor tagged her in a photo on Instagram.
Speaker 3: So Ingrid is on cloud nine and she keeps hanging
Speaker 3: out with Taylor. She's spending a lot of her money
Speaker 3: on clothes and home decorps to impress Taylor. Then Ingrid
Speaker 3: meets Taylor's brother, Nicki played by Billy Magnuson, who comes
Speaker 3: to La for a visit, and Ingrid is jealous that
Speaker 3: he's commanding a lot of Taylor's attention, especially when Taylor
Speaker 3: bails on plans that she and Ingrid have to hang
Speaker 3: out in order to go to a party with Nicki
Speaker 3: and this fashion influencer Harley Chung played by Palm clement Tyfe.
Speaker 3: Ingrid tries to go to this event but then like
Speaker 3: can't get into the VIP area and they're like, ooh,
Speaker 3: sorry about that, but hey, why don't you come to
Speaker 3: a pool party this weekend that Harley is throwing and
Speaker 3: bring your boyfriend Dan because they were joking behind Ingrid's
Speaker 3: back that her boyfriend is imaginary.
Speaker 2: Oh god, one of the many scenes that oh, like
Speaker 2: just made my chest tighten. I can't write like that
Speaker 2: to like find a moment like that where it's like
Speaker 2: Taylor is caught in a lie being like, oh, I
Speaker 2: didn't say your boyfriend doesn't exist, and like, Ingrid knows
Speaker 2: people are talking shit around her back, but she's just like,
Speaker 2: I gotta make it through this interaction. And you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's just so painful.
Speaker 3: It is, and they're not even wrong because Dan isn't
Speaker 3: her boyfriend.
Speaker 2: No, it is wild how easy it is for Ingrid
Speaker 2: to be like, you're my boyfriend. He's like totally okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah right.
Speaker 3: So now Ingrid has to make amends with Dan Pinto,
Speaker 3: who is still pissed for the truck fiasco and the
Speaker 3: table read thing. But she buys him some Batman gifts
Speaker 3: and some weed, and she takes him out to dinner
Speaker 3: and it's like kind of a date and then they
Speaker 3: start making out and then they go to his place
Speaker 3: and have sex and they're doing like batman catwoman role
Speaker 3: play and he's like whoo. And she invites him to
Speaker 3: this pool party and he agrees to go. So at
Speaker 3: the pool party, Ingrid is being very unchill because she
Speaker 3: keeps feeling like Dan is embarrassing her. Dan is bonding
Speaker 3: with Nicki, who Ingrid still hates, and most importantly, it's
Speaker 3: obvious that Taylor is less enthusiastic about her friendship with
Speaker 3: Ingrid because Taylor has clearly moved on to Harley as
Speaker 3: her new like bff of the moment, and Ingrid is
Speaker 3: very jealous. So she betrays Taylor and tells Ezra about
Speaker 3: that secret they had the you know, boutique hotel idea yeah,
Speaker 3: and Ezra is like, oh, so typical because his wife
Speaker 3: has become so phony recently, not like me. He's an artist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's somebody interesting, like yeah, how he talks like
Speaker 2: his wife like that Taylor bullied him into being I'm like,
Speaker 2: you have agency here as raw yeah okay, yes, and
Speaker 2: he sort of resents her for being supportive.
Speaker 3: I don't know, yeah right, but he's also like pretentious
Speaker 3: and yeah he's shitty in his own way. They're the worst, yes,
Speaker 3: but in different ways.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So then Ingrid can't find her phone because Nikki had
Speaker 3: swiped it, and he finds all of these photos that
Speaker 3: Ingrid took of stuff in Taylor's bathroom and photos of
Speaker 3: Taylor sleeping and no of all of Taylor's favorite things,
Speaker 3: and Nicki is like, what the fuck, you creep, and
Speaker 3: he claims to be looking out for his sister, but
Speaker 3: then he's like, I won't tell Taylor if you give
Speaker 3: me five thousand dollars a month, so he's trying to
Speaker 3: extort her, and she then pays some guy to punch
Speaker 3: her in the face so that it's more believable when
Speaker 3: Ingrid tells Dan that Nicky assaulted her, so that Dan
Speaker 3: will help her scare Nikki off because she knows that
Speaker 3: Dan has a gun, so they kidnap Nicki and drive
Speaker 3: him out to the desert. Nicki fights back, but then
Speaker 3: Ingrid hits him over the head with a crowbar or
Speaker 3: something and leaves him there.
Speaker 2: It's very like hijinksy. This movie sort of deviates into
Speaker 2: hijinks occasionally.
Speaker 3: For a moment here and there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do we know why Dan Pinto has a gun?
Speaker 3: It's not a real gun. It is a paintball gun.
Speaker 2: Right right right?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, because I was like, he is a dorc
Speaker 2: why is he? M? M okay it's painpal gun. Yes, yes.
Speaker 3: So Dan ends up in the hospital after this altercation
Speaker 3: with Nicki, and Taylor calls Ingrid and she's like, hey,
Speaker 3: do you know where my brother is? And she's like,
Speaker 3: definitely not, but I'm sure he's fine.
Speaker 2: Let's get avocado toast.
Speaker 3: Girly, and then Ingrid finds out that Taylor has taken
Speaker 3: another trip to Joshua Tree, so Ingrid drives there to
Speaker 3: stalk her. Yeah, but then finds out that Taylor is
Speaker 3: not actually there and that she doesn't want to see
Speaker 3: or talk to Ingrid anymore because she found out what
Speaker 3: Ingrid did to Nicki her brother.
Speaker 2: And I think kind of like massively underreacts. Yeah, not
Speaker 2: that I would advise involving the police, but it just
Speaker 2: didn't make sense to me. It seems like Taylor would
Speaker 2: have no issue calling the police, you know what I mean, right.
Speaker 2: I was surprised at how generous she was in that situation,
Speaker 2: because I'm like, if I were Taylor, I would be like,
Speaker 2: I don't feel safe for sure. That's scary.
Speaker 3: There's some comment that I think Ezra makes to the
Speaker 3: effect of, if Nicky didn't try to extort you, you'd
Speaker 3: be in jail right now. So I think that because
Speaker 3: Nicky did something illegal, that's why they don't go to
Speaker 3: the police. But I don't know the logic of these choices.
Speaker 2: It's confusing.
Speaker 3: In any case, Ingrid makes this situation even worse by
Speaker 3: calling Taylor many times and leaving a bunch of voicemails
Speaker 3: then Ingrid puts a down payment on a house in
Speaker 3: Joshua Tree, the house next to the one that Taylor
Speaker 3: owns aka the house that Taylor wanted to buy to
Speaker 3: turn into the boutique hotel. But this is the last
Speaker 3: of Ingrid's money, so now she broke. She's living in Squalor.
Speaker 3: She sees then that Taylor's having a Halloween party next door,
Speaker 3: so she puts on like a white sheet to pretend
Speaker 3: to be a ghost and crashes the party, and Taylor
Speaker 3: and Ezra and Nikki are all like, what the fuck
Speaker 3: are you doing here? Leave us alone? So then Ingrid
Speaker 3: goes back to her house and records a video of
Speaker 3: herself saying that everything she's posted in the past few
Speaker 3: months has been a lie. She has not been living
Speaker 3: this glamorous la life. She's a loser. She knows that
Speaker 3: something is wrong with her, but she doesn't know how
Speaker 3: to fix it or how to change. She feels lonely,
Speaker 3: she feels despair, and she posts this video to her
Speaker 3: followers on Instagram, which she's accumulated I think like a
Speaker 3: few thousand, I'm guessing because of her proximity to Taylor
Speaker 3: and like being tagged in photos of Taylors and things
Speaker 3: like that. This video is effectively a suicide note. She
Speaker 3: posts it and then she attempts suicide. She wakes up
Speaker 3: in the hospital having survived because Dan had seen the
Speaker 3: video and called nine to one one, and so she survives,
Speaker 3: and she learns that the video she posted went viral,
Speaker 3: and now she has tons of followers and people who
Speaker 3: care about her and who have sent her gifts and
Speaker 3: all of this stuff. She's even a hashtag. And so
Speaker 3: the movie ends on this note, or at least my
Speaker 3: interpretation of it, is that she has learned nothing and
Speaker 3: she'll continue to seek validation from social media and other
Speaker 3: kind of like superficial sources.
Speaker 2: The end.
Speaker 3: So that's the movie on.
Speaker 2: That awesome note. Let's take a quick break and we'll
Speaker 2: be right back, and we're back. Okay, Yeah, this movie
Speaker 2: is really challenging. Okay, So I want to talk about
Speaker 2: some of the criticism of this movie that came out
Speaker 2: at the time, because I think a lot of it
Speaker 2: is valid, and I also kind of want to revisit
Speaker 2: it a little bit because I think that this movie
Speaker 2: does not do great on the subject of mental health.
Speaker 3: Agree.
Speaker 2: I think that that is like one of its major flaws,
Speaker 2: but the way that it fumbles it. I think I
Speaker 2: feel differently than I did when I first saw it,
Speaker 2: because it feels like Ingrid is a destructive She's struggling
Speaker 2: with mental illness and grief the entire movie, and we
Speaker 2: know this about her, and she is unable to get
Speaker 2: the help that she needs, and it feels like she
Speaker 2: is stuck in this. I think I originally was like
Speaker 2: my first viewing at this, I was like, Oh, we're
Speaker 2: supposed to hate Ingrid, but I didn't really feel that
Speaker 2: way this time. I felt like it. And maybe I'm
Speaker 2: giving the movie too much credit, but it was It's like,
Speaker 2: because social media was and is such an under explored
Speaker 2: addictive process, It's like every time like she has the
Speaker 2: drug in her hand at all times, and no one
Speaker 2: really acknowledges it as an addiction and as a drug
Speaker 2: that can exacerbate and make the mental illnesses that she's
Speaker 2: struggling with even harder to deal with. And so I
Speaker 2: don't know, it's tricky because she does so many unforgivable things.
Speaker 2: But I did find myself like empathizing with her because
Speaker 2: I've struggled with mental illness and like OCD specifically, and
Speaker 2: social media is designed to make that worse and designed
Speaker 2: to encourage that and attach social currency and the concept
Speaker 2: of acceptance to that. So, like I, while I cannot
Speaker 2: relate with kidnapping Billy Magnuson and like, you know, completely
Speaker 2: uprooting my life, I did feel like it was interesting
Speaker 2: to see a character who is struggling with obsessive thoughts
Speaker 2: and compulsive behaviors and how social media is absolutely designed
Speaker 2: to make that worse. The way it's handled from moment
Speaker 2: to moment, I feel like is all over the place
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 3: Right, because, like the movie's agenda is very clearly to
Speaker 3: examine what social media can do to people's mental health,
Speaker 3: how it can encourage an impulse for people to compare
Speaker 3: themselves to others, how it can breed loneliness. And then
Speaker 3: on the kind of influencer side of things, it shows
Speaker 3: how their job is to hawk stuff, whether that's like
Speaker 3: food at a restaurant, apparel, accessories, makeup whatever, or just
Speaker 3: like a general like image or lifestyle almost and how
Speaker 3: doing that basically encourages that impulse to compare yourself to
Speaker 3: others and feel insecure and feel lonely, and how it's
Speaker 3: just like this cyclical mess, and the movie acknowledges that
Speaker 3: and explores it. But like you were saying, as far
Speaker 3: as how it handles it, and especially handles mental health.
Speaker 2: As well as like suicidality, I've felt.
Speaker 3: Like I'm not thrilled with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: On one hand, I do think the movie could be
Speaker 3: a lot more judgmental of people who are like influenced
Speaker 3: by influencers, especially for a movie that was written and
Speaker 3: directed by men, because men often have a habit of
Speaker 3: observing women and kind of misinterpreting what is going on.
Speaker 3: So I feel like it would have been very easy for,
Speaker 3: you know, most male filmmakers to observe women who are
Speaker 3: on both sides of the like influencer social media phenomenon
Speaker 3: and cast a lot of judgment on them, the way
Speaker 3: that men constantly cast judgment on women for things like
Speaker 3: feeling pressure to adhere to societal expectations that men largely reinforce. Right,
Speaker 3: the movie doesn't quite do that, but it does not
Speaker 3: seem to have very much empathy for the mental health
Speaker 3: issues that Ingrid is dealing with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel like, in
Speaker 2: the effort to get their message across about social media.
Speaker 2: The way that mental health is treated is undercooked in
Speaker 2: service of that point, which sucks because I think it's
Speaker 2: a really hard needle to thread and one that I
Speaker 2: would rather I mean this honestly, this movie just maybe
Speaker 2: want to see movies about social media addiction, not by men,
Speaker 2: and not to say that men can't be addicted to
Speaker 2: social media. They absolutely can and are. But this was
Speaker 2: like talking about a very particular gendered form of plucking
Speaker 2: the show again, sixteenth minute on cool Zone Media. I
Speaker 2: was just talking with friend of the cast, Bridget Todd
Speaker 2: this morning, yes, of course, who hosts There Are No
Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet and talks about these topics a lot,
Speaker 2: and you know, she was speaking to the point that
Speaker 2: I think is done more thoughtfully in this movie, which
Speaker 2: is that social media is designed to make women feel
Speaker 2: like shit, and the content that the algorithm favors tends
Speaker 2: to be very aspirational to make women feel like shit
Speaker 2: about their body, about their class, about their lifestyle, about
Speaker 2: any number of things. And I do like that. Again,
Speaker 2: the easy choice here would have been to make Taylor
Speaker 2: the influencer be a super villain who is lying in
Speaker 2: a less complicated way than she's actually lying. But it doesn't,
Speaker 2: and I do appreciate that, you know, like Taylor is
Speaker 2: in sort of this trap of maybe not of her
Speaker 2: own making, but sort of of her own making, where
Speaker 2: it's become her job to perform feeling great, and she
Speaker 2: doesn't like she has any number of problems like normal
Speaker 2: people would, but can't say that. I am interested in,
Speaker 2: like the monetizing yourself and your personality, and I think
Speaker 2: that that is just like always a more slippery slope
Speaker 2: if you're marginalized in any way, especially like before there
Speaker 2: were any conversations around it, like so easy to get
Speaker 2: trapped in like a rigid self, and if you act
Speaker 2: outside of this self, you're acting off brand, and that's bad.
Speaker 2: And like, I think this movie does do some stuff
Speaker 2: to acknowledge that, you know, the influencers are also in
Speaker 2: a different kind of mental prison, right, And it doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that the actions of influencers are universally forgivable, because
Speaker 2: you know, Taylor is still not great, right, But I
Speaker 2: like that she is not great in a way that
Speaker 2: still feels very human. And I just feel like her
Speaker 2: character was generally better thought through than Ingrid's at times,
Speaker 2: which is frustrating because I think Ingrid is We're given
Speaker 2: the ingredients to have a lot of interesting discussions in
Speaker 2: this movie around grief, around mental health, and around how
Speaker 2: you are with a tiny computer all the time that
Speaker 2: says it's helping you with these exact things, and almost
Speaker 2: always isn't like, but it's an interesting movie to go
Speaker 2: back to because you're like, they didn't quite get it.
Speaker 2: But I think it's aging better than I expected.
Speaker 3: Right, I mean again, the thing that it's always gonna
Speaker 3: boil down to for me is that the Ingrid character,
Speaker 3: it's not necessarily unsympathetic or unempathetic toward her, especially when
Speaker 3: you learn the directors and the writers' intentions with the character.
Speaker 3: So I will share a quote from what I think
Speaker 3: might be a press release. I don't really know what
Speaker 3: this was, but it's possibly a press release from Mongrel Media,
Speaker 3: which is the film distribution company that I believe distributed
Speaker 3: Ingrid Goes West. And in this document is a an
Speaker 3: interview with Matt Spicer, who directed and co wrote the movie,
Speaker 3: and he was asked how did this project originate and
Speaker 3: he says, quote, my co writer, David Branson Smith and
Speaker 3: I have been friends for many years and we're looking
Speaker 3: for something to work on together. We were having lunch
Speaker 3: and talking about our mutual obsession with Instagram and how
Speaker 3: it brings out the worst in us, making us feel
Speaker 3: bad about ourselves while also being wildly entertaining and addictive.
Speaker 3: He asked me if I thought there was a movie there,
Speaker 3: which I did. The obvious choice was to make single
Speaker 3: white female for the social media generation, with Taylor as
Speaker 3: the helpless victim in Ingrid as the obsessive, cold blooded stalker.
Speaker 3: But the more we talked about it, I actually found
Speaker 3: myself relating more to the Ingrid character. The quote goes
Speaker 3: on and there's a bunch of other questions, and he
Speaker 3: talks quite a bit about developing each character and the
Speaker 3: thought that went into it. And so they are approaching Ingrid,
Speaker 3: the writers and director, with a sense of empathy, like
Speaker 3: they do kind of understand what it is to be
Speaker 3: addicted to social media and how that does affect your
Speaker 3: mental health. And so they're not necessarily not approaching the
Speaker 3: character with any intentional malice or anything like that. But
Speaker 3: the fact remains that Ingrid, though it is unidentified, is
Speaker 3: dealing with a mental health crisis, and I mean not identified,
Speaker 3: like by specific name she's never.
Speaker 2: Right, which which I'm not mad about, right, but yeah,
Speaker 2: something that Foster's compulsive behaviors.
Speaker 3: Right, And on top of that, she's dealing with grief
Speaker 3: over the loss of her mother, and the movie, I
Speaker 3: think is pretty much constantly assuming that you will or
Speaker 3: encouraging that the audience will be cringing at her behavior
Speaker 3: and laughing at her. And so for that to be
Speaker 3: the case, and people might disagree with me, but I
Speaker 3: feel like the movie is like constantly like, oh God, no, Ingrid,
Speaker 3: don't do that, not again. Oh you're so cringey. Oh,
Speaker 3: or she's doing something that you're laughing at or that's
Speaker 3: supposed to be funny. And for that to be true
Speaker 3: of a character who is again dealing with a mental
Speaker 3: health crisis. That's the thing that rubs me the wrong
Speaker 3: way about this movie.
Speaker 2: That makes sense to me, And that was like, so
Speaker 2: what I didn't like about it the first time, And
Speaker 2: I think that that makes a lot of sense. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm unclear on exactly what they want us to feel
Speaker 2: about her at certain points because I feel like, and
Speaker 2: maybe this is just grounded in Aubrey Plaza's performance, but
Speaker 2: like I want to be on her side, like I
Speaker 2: want her to be okay, and it's like scary and
Speaker 2: sad and frustrating to watch her not get the help
Speaker 2: that she needs. Yeah again, it just yeah, I felt
Speaker 2: undercooked and under explored because we see that she has
Speaker 2: spent some time in inpatient treatment, but that doesn't seem
Speaker 2: to have been especially helpful for her, which can be
Speaker 2: very true, but like again, it's just like that's there
Speaker 2: and she goes to I mean, yeah, if you're having
Speaker 2: a mental health crisis, definitely don't move to Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: It's like the worst possible place you could be. Take
Speaker 2: it from me, But it's hard because I feel like
Speaker 2: I can't exactly put it into words. I think that
Speaker 2: that read is so there of like it's funny that
Speaker 2: this is happening, but I also felt like going back
Speaker 2: in this time, I just felt terribly for her. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and part of why it's such an anxiety inducing movie.
Speaker 2: And maybe it's just like where I am now versus
Speaker 2: where I was then, but like watching her be around
Speaker 2: people who don't necessarily have bad intentions towards her, but
Speaker 2: they just are not equipped to be able to give
Speaker 2: her what she needs. And yeah, I think the mental
Speaker 2: health point that really didn't sit well with me. Again,
Speaker 2: I understand from the message cautionary message about social media
Speaker 2: point why the character makes a suicide attempt, but I
Speaker 2: really don't. That's just a personal preference thing. Maybe I
Speaker 2: just don't like that. I especially don't like when that's
Speaker 2: put on screen. That was what gave me pause. I
Speaker 2: feel like you can end the movie the same way,
Speaker 2: maybe not, you know, with that same really stomach churning impact.
Speaker 2: But I feel like you could end the movie with
Speaker 2: the same like feeling without having done that. But that's
Speaker 2: kind of a personal preference. But I just don't like
Speaker 2: when attempts are put on screen. I feel like it's
Speaker 2: usually unnecessary, especially because it's an Oprey Plaza movie. A
Speaker 2: lot of young people are gonna see it, and I
Speaker 2: just don't like it. I wanted to go back to
Speaker 2: original criticism of this movie, yeah, because I just wanted
Speaker 2: your take. I really I don't know what to make
Speaker 2: of it now, especially because we were already doing movie
Speaker 2: criticism in twenty seventeen when this movie came out. But
Speaker 2: I feel like it was very different.
Speaker 3: We were hashtag babies back.
Speaker 2: Then, tag podcasting toddlers, but it was an interesting, like,
Speaker 2: look at what the criticism of this time was like.
Speaker 2: So this is from a Miss magazine piece from when
Speaker 2: the movie came out in twenty seventeen. While the film
Speaker 2: has been heralded as a timely warning against social media,
Speaker 2: this so called warning is only possible because of the
Speaker 2: filmmaker's representation of Ingrid as unstable, obsessive, and quote unquote
Speaker 2: hysterical depictions, which have historically all been used to devalue
Speaker 2: and control women. Taking a cue from Single White Female,
Speaker 2: the film relies on the trope that women's friendships are
Speaker 2: toxic and unstable, Taking another from films like Swim Fan
Speaker 2: and Black Swan, it predicates its entire plot on the
Speaker 2: tired notion that women are jealous, irrational, and obsessive by nature.
Speaker 2: The film's investment in these depictions paints mental illness into
Speaker 2: an inherently female danger. Indeed, it seems that Ingrid is
Speaker 2: a stark and visual warning about the mentally ill woman
Speaker 2: we should make sure to never become. As Sarah Kahn
Speaker 2: writes in a piece that no longer exists on the Internet,
Speaker 2: the film's unresolved ending is particularly harmful. In that quote,
Speaker 2: it only reinforces the incorrect and ignorant narrative that people
Speaker 2: only talk openly about mental illness to seek attention unquote.
Speaker 2: I think this is interesting. I don't totally agree with
Speaker 2: it now, honestly, but I do I think agree with
Speaker 2: that last part a little bit. Again. I think that,
Speaker 2: like from the year twenty twenty four, I cannot comfortably
Speaker 2: say that everyone on the internet discussed mental health is
Speaker 2: doing so in great faith. I feel like that is
Speaker 2: not necessarily true. However, the majority are, I think, and
Speaker 2: I feel like if this movie wants to make this point,
Speaker 2: we should maybe see other examples of how people are
Speaker 2: good faith engaging.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: See, But now saying that, I'm like, do you feel
Speaker 2: that Ingrid made this attempt for attention? I sort of
Speaker 2: didn't read it that way. I didn't well, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, maybe that's me being naive and like
Speaker 2: I don't see the game of like seven thousand d
Speaker 2: chests she was playing. But I guess I read that
Speaker 2: attempt as sincere, so that kind of negates that point
Speaker 2: for me. I don't know. I do think that it
Speaker 2: would have been helpful to clarify whatever they were trying
Speaker 2: to say around mental health to have another character navigating,
Speaker 2: if not the same issue, because you know, everyone has
Speaker 2: their own mental health journey to go on, right, but
Speaker 2: navigating those same issues in a different way from Ingrid.
Speaker 3: Right, I do think it was not like an attention
Speaker 3: seeking attempt.
Speaker 2: I didn't think so either.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think that she was legitimately attempting suicide.
Speaker 3: And what she says during that video seems I mean,
Speaker 3: it's devastating because she's acknowledging how her life has been
Speaker 3: a lie and how she feels so lonely and she
Speaker 3: feels like a loser and pathetic and all of these things.
Speaker 2: She misses her mom and like, see now, I'm like,
Speaker 2: but now this movie review doesn't believe women. I'm confused.
Speaker 2: I'm confused. Yeah, I didn't read that. I mean, and
Speaker 2: listeners like, obviously open season on if you did read
Speaker 2: it that way. But yeah, it felt like if that
Speaker 2: was the intended read of the movie, then yeah, Ingrid
Speaker 2: is being shown as essentially a super villain. But I
Speaker 2: guess I just didn't. Yeah, I didn't read it that way.
Speaker 3: My read is that she was intending to die by suicide,
Speaker 3: that her words in the suicide note video were earnest,
Speaker 3: but The point is that she will fall back into
Speaker 3: the same cycle because once she survives this attempt and
Speaker 3: learns that she has a following now that people are
Speaker 3: reaching out to her, and chances are she'll never meet
Speaker 3: any of these people and not actually form any lasting
Speaker 3: or meaningful connections with any of them. But she's addicted
Speaker 3: to this internet validation, and it seems as though, because
Speaker 3: of like the grin on her face when she's seeing
Speaker 3: all of these expressions of love and support from people
Speaker 3: commenting on her Instagram, that she again will have learned
Speaker 3: nothing and will fall back into the same cycle what
Speaker 3: I wish would have happened. Maybe I'm talking through this
Speaker 3: in real time, but like we see her being hospitalized
Speaker 3: in the beginning of the movie, but it's in like montage, right,
Speaker 3: and we don't get a whole lot of sense of
Speaker 3: what is going on, and like is the system failing her?
Speaker 3: Like is the healthcare system the thing that's right?
Speaker 2: And it kind of seems I guess again, that was
Speaker 2: like the conclusion that I jumped to, but we're not
Speaker 2: given that explicit reason.
Speaker 3: Right, because she makes a comment of I know something
Speaker 3: is wrong with me, but I don't know how to
Speaker 3: fix it, I don't know how to change, and I'm curious,
Speaker 3: like what was the care like that she did receive
Speaker 3: in this hospital?
Speaker 2: Right, right, because it's like it's totally conceivable to get
Speaker 2: bad mental health treatment, absolute surely, but it's yeah, I
Speaker 2: agree like that it's important I think to yeah, demonstrate
Speaker 2: like why it didn't quite work. Otherwise I feel like
Speaker 2: it is a viable read for it to be like,
Speaker 2: you know, in patient treatment doesn't work, which is obviously
Speaker 2: not true. Right Yeah. Again, it's just like, because it's
Speaker 2: like this satirey feel, it sometimes feels like there's too
Speaker 2: broad of a brush with certain issues. But anyways, I
Speaker 2: just wanted to share that because I thought it was interesting.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I feel like I would have really wholeheartedly
Speaker 2: agreed with that criticism at the time, and you know,
Speaker 2: time keeps moving, and it's just interesting because I feel like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I was able to have a little bit more of
Speaker 2: a generous read of this movie than I did six
Speaker 2: or seven years ago. I do want to say that
Speaker 2: Elizabeth said joined Instagram right after this movie came out.
Speaker 2: There is a funny, kind of iconic her kind of
Speaker 2: fucked up but kind of iconic. This is from the Cut.
Speaker 2: In twenty seventeen, Elizabeth Olsen recently joined Instagram for the
Speaker 2: first time. She learned the ropes while playing an Instagram
Speaker 2: influencer in her upcoming film Ingrid Goes West, But in
Speaker 2: an interview with The La Times, she reveals that her
Speaker 2: newfound social media savvy isn't simply because she needed to
Speaker 2: share photos of her breakfast with the world. She's just
Speaker 2: in it for the cash, so she said, it's so
Speaker 2: funny that people, this is Elizabeth Olsen speaking, It's so
Speaker 2: funny that people like to pretend that there may be
Speaker 2: or maybe not getting paid to post something financially, it's
Speaker 2: a brilliant opportunity. Like I'd really love to be a
Speaker 2: brand ambassador. I'd love to do a campaign. I think
Speaker 2: sometimes working with brands or different cosmetic companies that can
Speaker 2: help people recognize your face and then they go see
Speaker 2: your movie. I was only hurting my opportunities by not participating, which,
Speaker 2: honestly I think that that is Like, even if you
Speaker 2: don't agree with it, I appreciate that she's just being
Speaker 2: honest about it because I feel like that's the fault
Speaker 2: that the movie is trying to criticize, is that influencers
Speaker 2: and this happened. I mean, it's worse now, even though
Speaker 2: there are disclosure laws in place that there didn't used
Speaker 2: to be about and saying when you're doing spawn versus
Speaker 2: when you're not. There are some influencers that like their
Speaker 2: whole account is spawn. You're like, how do we even
Speaker 2: get interested in you in the first place? Like you're
Speaker 2: just selling shit. It's weird.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've never quite understood that, but I do find
Speaker 3: it interesting that the way Taylor describes herself and her job,
Speaker 3: because ingrid very blazonly, is like, what do you guys
Speaker 3: do for money? You know, on the first night that
Speaker 3: she meets them. But people should be more transparent, I
Speaker 3: think about their income and how they get it. But anyway, yeah,
Speaker 3: she's like, what do you do for money? And Taylor's like, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm a photographer right right, And then we find out
Speaker 3: that she's like, well, you know, it's not as glamorous,
Speaker 3: is it seems? Sometimes brands pay me to like post
Speaker 3: photos on the thing. And so she's basically like she's
Speaker 3: describing being an influencer in very creative ways because we
Speaker 3: don't ever see her with a camera any other camera
Speaker 3: besides her iPhone camera, she's not doing the type of
Speaker 3: photography that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels very like prior. I think that those
Speaker 2: disclosure laws they might have existed by the time this
Speaker 2: movie came out, but maybe not when it was written.
Speaker 2: I forget exactly when, but yeah, like it almost feels
Speaker 2: like I honestly used to feel this way when I
Speaker 2: would tell people that I hosted a podcast for a living,
Speaker 2: I actually would not say that, and I was actively like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is a career that is still like not quite
Speaker 2: a thing, and I'm kind of embarrassed to say I
Speaker 2: have a job that I'm not sure is considered to
Speaker 2: be real or you.
Speaker 3: Know, huh.
Speaker 2: And it feels like that's kind of what Taylor's doing
Speaker 2: with an influencer, Like she's trying to make it sound
Speaker 2: like a respected job where influencer clearly at the time
Speaker 2: this was written or filmed or I don't know what
Speaker 2: the production timeline was, wasn't considered a job, whereas now,
Speaker 2: like most influencers are pretty straightforward about what it is
Speaker 2: they're doing because it's considered a legitimate job. I mean
Speaker 2: the same as podcasting, Like it's considered a legitimate job now,
Speaker 2: and so people are just like, yeah, this is my job,
Speaker 2: but she's like, oh well, it's not what it seems like.
Speaker 2: And also like, clearly at this time she didn't have
Speaker 2: to disclose anything, which is scary, and that like whether
Speaker 2: the influencers doing this were especially cognizant of this or not,
Speaker 2: because I do think that there's like a lot of
Speaker 2: naivete around social media usage at this time. They're like, yeah,
Speaker 2: selling you a fake, it's advertising, it's lying, it's lying,
Speaker 2: it's making stuff up.
Speaker 3: And we see her lying about other stuff such as
Speaker 3: like she never read the books she's claiming to have read.
Speaker 3: She loved that, claims that her husband is a very
Speaker 3: the popular artist, and we find out that the only
Speaker 3: sale he's ever made is that one two ingrid And
Speaker 3: basically we just see every character lying or manipulating or
Speaker 3: thinking that the Jewel Schumacher Batman movies are good.
Speaker 2: Okay, what the greatest sin of all? I loved Joel Schumacher.
Speaker 2: I was very surprised to hear a Jewel Like, you
Speaker 2: just don't expect to hear his full name spoken in
Speaker 2: a movie.
Speaker 3: You don't.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean I thought this movie did a
Speaker 2: better job than I remembered both clearly pointing to the
Speaker 2: fact that the kind of influencing that Taylor is doing
Speaker 2: is lying. But there is like a gradient of like
Speaker 2: it doesn't make her the world's worst person, but it doesn't.
Speaker 2: I feel like there was at least some fairness with
Speaker 2: how that was shown, Like she wasn't completely demonized, but
Speaker 2: she wasn't made out to be like, oh, I'm just
Speaker 2: a girl, I don't know what I'm doing, Like she
Speaker 2: does know what she's doing, yeah, and she seems a
Speaker 2: little ashamed of it, but not enough to not do
Speaker 2: it right.
Speaker 3: There is more nuance to I would say pretty much
Speaker 3: every character we get to know to some extent, there's
Speaker 3: more nuance to them than, again, I would have expected
Speaker 3: from filmmakers who are men writing about women. I'm not
Speaker 3: saying they did.
Speaker 2: An amazing job, but they did something.
Speaker 3: There's something, and there's more nuance there because again, I
Speaker 3: think it would have been very easy and the kind
Speaker 3: of default for men to write female characters and female
Speaker 3: influencers and people who are susceptible to influencers in a
Speaker 3: way more judgy way. But I am curious as to
Speaker 3: why these men, and again I'm talking about director Matt
Speaker 3: Spicer and his co writer on the script, David Branson Smith,
Speaker 3: why they chose women as the main characters when they
Speaker 3: could better speak to the experience of men being affected
Speaker 3: by social media because they are men affected by social media,
Speaker 3: as they say in that interview.
Speaker 2: Which is interesting because we like we do get a
Speaker 2: feel for that. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, like,
Speaker 2: I don't want to be like people could only write
Speaker 2: their own experience. Yeah, but I would just be curious
Speaker 2: to know, and I would also at a note and
Speaker 2: I wasn't able to really find anything on this to
Speaker 2: like to what extent they spoke to women about their
Speaker 2: experiences on social media in building out these characters, because
Speaker 2: that feels like it would be a very important component
Speaker 2: of building out this relationship. Because I don't really agree
Speaker 2: with the Miss magazine criticism that sort of indicates that,
Speaker 2: like Taylor in Ingrid's Dynamic, is indicative that these writers
Speaker 2: think that all women's French are dysfunctional and toxic. Like,
Speaker 2: I think that that's kind of an overstatement. I feel
Speaker 2: like we understand why this friendship isn't working. It's because
Speaker 2: they're both lying and one to a wild degree. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that you know one is in mental health crisis
Speaker 2: and the other is not equipped to handle that, and
Speaker 2: Taylor is like a people pleaser to the extent that
Speaker 2: it's dishonest, and like, I feel like you're given maybe
Speaker 2: my brain is broken. It didn't feel especially gendered, because
Speaker 2: you do get a taste of like how social media
Speaker 2: affects men, but not as I don't know, Like, I
Speaker 2: think that the shared quality across the cast is that
Speaker 2: everyone is in fake it till you make it mode,
Speaker 2: which is I think just how LA characters are very
Speaker 2: frequently written. But like Dan Pinto is a fake screenwriter,
Speaker 2: and Taylor is a fake photographer, and Wyatt Russell is
Speaker 2: a fake artist, and you know, Billy Magdison is a
Speaker 2: fake I don't even know.
Speaker 3: He's like a real con artist, and he's very racist.
Speaker 3: We should point.
Speaker 2: Out, yes, there is a horrific racist joke in this
Speaker 2: that clearly turns you on this character. I don't think
Speaker 2: it was necessary at all to turn us on this character.
Speaker 2: And it also makes it clear that Taylor is okay
Speaker 2: with this totally in a room full of white people,
Speaker 2: She's very okay with laughing at an extremely racist joke.
Speaker 2: And I think that the only person in the room
Speaker 2: who really says something is her.
Speaker 3: Husband, her husband Ezra.
Speaker 2: Yes, so a single point for him there, But he
Speaker 2: also like I don't know what did you make of him,
Speaker 2: because I think he definitely sucks. He's a pretentious asshole, yes, right,
Speaker 2: And he seems very resentful towards Taylor for the way
Speaker 2: that she's making money.
Speaker 3: For sure, And it's not clear if he is like
Speaker 3: intimidated by her success the way a lot of men
Speaker 3: in relationships with women who are like making more money
Speaker 3: than them is very threatening to those men. It's not
Speaker 3: clear if he's feeling that or if he's just like
Speaker 3: on his high horse about you know, self promotion and
Speaker 3: being super online, because those things are clear, but we
Speaker 3: don't know if there's like an underlying like misogyny thing
Speaker 3: happening or.
Speaker 2: I guess it kind of seems to me like there
Speaker 2: definitely was like, yeah, he's like the kind of person
Speaker 2: that sucks. Even when he's saying the right thing, you
Speaker 2: just feel like he's saying the right thing for the
Speaker 2: wrong reason, which I guess a lot of people in
Speaker 2: this movie are true, and that is a very common
Speaker 2: internet behavior, right, But like, yeah, he's acting like he's
Speaker 2: too good, like he's trying to have everything both ways
Speaker 2: and resenting no matter what the situation is. He resents
Speaker 2: Taylor as a result, And I don't even like Taylor,
Speaker 2: but I feel like he is an asshole because he's like, oh,
Speaker 2: self promotion is so gross, blah blah blah, But why
Speaker 2: aren't I making money as an artist? Like he just
Speaker 2: wants everything to be handed to him because he is
Speaker 2: a man, and look at my art, and everyone's a
Speaker 2: poser and a faker except for me. And meanwhile, you
Speaker 2: know his wife is paying all the bills because she
Speaker 2: is working, but he doesn't consider what she does. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is maybe me getting defense, but like he doesn't
Speaker 2: consider what she does real even though what she's doing
Speaker 2: is funding his lifestyle. So right, he can shut up
Speaker 2: or like not be in this relationship if you're not
Speaker 2: comfortable with that, But you can't just like be angry
Speaker 2: and passively benefit from it all the time.
Speaker 3: True. Also, and I'm not criticizing all like upcycled art
Speaker 3: because because I think some of it is very very cool, but.
Speaker 2: His art is it's right up there with Magic Mike.
Speaker 3: It's bad, Magic BIG's awful. Furniture, Yeah, all that Ezra
Speaker 3: is doing is taking existing paintings that he bought from
Speaker 3: thrift stores and then painting text on them that says
Speaker 3: like hashtag blessed or hashtag squad goals or any of those.
Speaker 2: Which was a thing like I remember that shit, and
Speaker 2: like they were right to make fun of it. It
Speaker 2: was ridiculous. Yeah, but yeah, he's a poser. He's a
Speaker 2: faker for sure, like the worst kind of poser, where
Speaker 2: his whole personality is predicated on the fact that he's
Speaker 2: definitely not a poster, which is like the worst, the
Speaker 2: worst kind of person.
Speaker 3: The movie is recognizing the irony of him being like,
Speaker 3: I'm a real artist. My art speaks for itself. I
Speaker 3: do art. And then you see his art and it's
Speaker 3: something that someone else made and then he just painted
Speaker 3: some letters on it. It's like, Okay, are you good
Speaker 3: at art? Question mark.
Speaker 2: I do think that, like, at very least, like his character,
Speaker 2: because I did not remember. It's a very very racist
Speaker 2: joke about virtually any Asian person because it is that
Speaker 2: vague and cruel, and I still don't think it was
Speaker 2: necessary because it does happen. I'm glad that his character
Speaker 2: calls it out, said something Yeah, yeah, and I understand.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, I think he's an interesting character to
Speaker 2: have there. It's like I recognize the type of person
Speaker 2: and it sort of contributes to like showing what And
Speaker 2: this is like kind of a mealy mouthed point that
Speaker 2: we've seen made in a lot of things with like
Speaker 2: social media is not real. But that's the point this
Speaker 2: movie is trying to make to some extent, And their
Speaker 2: marriage dynamic I think is like pretty interesting and unique,
Speaker 2: and like, even though I don't love Taylor as a
Speaker 2: character and her weird Joshua Tree gentrification hotel sounds awful,
Speaker 2: her husband is also sexist, so there's that. Her brother,
Speaker 2: I feel like, is character that didn't really work for me.
Speaker 2: He felt too cartoonish, I don't know. And also they
Speaker 2: were like, well he was struggling with or not dealing
Speaker 2: with his addiction problems, which is referenced several times, but
Speaker 2: really only seems to be there to add another way
Speaker 2: in which Taylor is being dishonest about her life or
Speaker 2: in denial about her life. But it's just like he
Speaker 2: sort of became like a plot device at some point
Speaker 2: where he's like he blackmails Ingrid and he gets kidd
Speaker 2: like all the high jinxy stuff is sort of with
Speaker 2: his character, and he's just my least favorite character. I
Speaker 2: don't like him. That's my feminist criticism. I don't like him.
Speaker 3: Wow hashtag genius once again, Yeah, thank you. He is
Speaker 3: quite cartoony, but I also feel like people like him exist,
Speaker 3: so for sure, I DeKay, but I just don't like him.
Speaker 3: I think the last thing I have to say about
Speaker 3: this movie, and it kind of goes back to the
Speaker 3: article you were referencing earlier about all of these examples
Speaker 3: of movies that center female friendship. But it's like a
Speaker 3: toxic stockery, obsessive kind of thing. And it's not that
Speaker 3: I think that all friendships between or among women in
Speaker 3: movies are portrayed that way, because obviously there are many
Speaker 3: examples that aren't. But the article does cite several movies
Speaker 3: that do show that dynamic, such as Swim Fan. I
Speaker 3: saw that movie, but I can't remember much about it.
Speaker 3: I have not seen it Swim Fan, and then Single
Speaker 3: White Female, which we covered many many years ago the show.
Speaker 3: But this movie wouldn't feel like, Wow, yet another installment
Speaker 3: in this type of friendship dynamic between women. If there
Speaker 3: were just more movies about friendship among women, because yeah,
Speaker 3: the director was citing other movies that inspired him. One
Speaker 3: of them was Single White Female. But he also references
Speaker 3: The Talented Mister Ripley and The King of Comedy, which, Jamie,
Speaker 3: have you seen that movie?
Speaker 2: I have not seen it.
Speaker 3: Now I've seen it a couple times. It's another very
Speaker 3: very stressful movie. Robert de Niro plays an aspiring comedian
Speaker 3: who's trying to get on like a late night talk show,
Speaker 3: like a Jimmy Carson kind of thing. Jimmy Carson, is
Speaker 3: that just Johnny Johnny Carson.
Speaker 2: I was like that, Well, we're so young, We're so young.
Speaker 2: Oh is this the movie that, like Todd Phillips Joker
Speaker 2: is kind of ripping off right?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, So he's a sessed with this talk show
Speaker 3: host and he's trying to get like a set to
Speaker 3: do stand up on a late night show and things
Speaker 3: go horribly wrong. So there's like a few movies referenced,
Speaker 3: like King of Comedy and Talented Mister Ripley that the
Speaker 3: filmmakers of Ingrid Goes West were pulling from that, you know,
Speaker 3: feature men. But because every other fucking movie in the
Speaker 3: world is about men. It doesn't feel like, oh, every
Speaker 3: movie that comes out is about men being obsessed and
Speaker 3: scary and violent.
Speaker 2: Right, I agree with you. I mean, maybe it's being older.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's just the way that the Internet has continued
Speaker 2: to evolve where I feel like I did have the
Speaker 2: information I needed. Would I have liked to see Taylor
Speaker 2: have an actual friend, sure, sure, like and see what
Speaker 2: does a functional friendship work like for her? But again,
Speaker 2: like across gender, it doesn't seem like really anyone in
Speaker 2: this movie is capable, except maybe Dan Pinto. I will say, like,
Speaker 2: you know, weird guy, and I don't really understand why
Speaker 2: he's putting up with the consequences of being with Ingrid
Speaker 2: to the extent that he is, but I do appreciate that,
Speaker 2: like he wants to know her, sure, and that is
Speaker 2: nice to see. And I feel like that's another way
Speaker 2: in which this movie does show that it is not
Speaker 2: openly contemptuous of Ingrid. And I understand why she is
Speaker 2: definitely starting by manipulating him so she doesn't get evicted,
Speaker 2: but I get why she ends up wanting to be
Speaker 2: with him more, even though it's like this complicated, like
Speaker 2: he is a means to an end to her as
Speaker 2: far as access to a car, access to housing, and
Speaker 2: access to enabling this lie. But also she needs someone
Speaker 2: to talk to about grief desperately, and he can relate
Speaker 2: with her about that. And I thought that that scene
Speaker 2: was I kind of wish that there was a little
Speaker 2: more done with that relationship to develop it, because normally
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't need the boyfriend's side plot. I
Speaker 2: think it is kind of interesting here, but yeah, it
Speaker 2: kind of tapers off, and then the way at the end,
Speaker 2: I feel bad for Dan Pinto. I'm like, get out
Speaker 2: of there. Dant like, no, we need to get Ingrid
Speaker 2: into good stable care so that she can recover, and
Speaker 2: we need Dan Pinto to like, I don't know, like
Speaker 2: give up the ghosts and move on. Well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the thing is every character in this movie is
Speaker 3: characterized as someone who is like not very capable of
Speaker 3: healthy human relationships, because Dan Pinto's thing is he's a
Speaker 3: pushover who like lets people walk all over him, and
Speaker 3: he's manipulated by Ingrid constantly.
Speaker 2: And there's plenty of Dan Pinto's in the world, I know.
Speaker 3: And then that scene where Ingrid and Dan Pinto are
Speaker 3: talking about losing their parents. I almost read that as
Speaker 3: she seized an opportunity to yeah, because she's again constantly
Speaker 3: trying to endear people to her. Yeah, and he's opening
Speaker 3: up and talking about this grief and you know, he
Speaker 3: was orphaned as a child and that's why he's so
Speaker 3: attached to Batman and you know, really laying it all
Speaker 3: out there, and rather than being like she says a
Speaker 3: couple things about losing her mom to him, but to me,
Speaker 3: it was she sees this as an opportunity to basically
Speaker 3: further manipulate him into dating her so that she can
Speaker 3: continue using him, because like, she doesn't really continue the conversation,
Speaker 3: she just kind of surprise kisses him. Really she does,
Speaker 3: and then they have Batman catwoman sex.
Speaker 2: So yes, I agree with you. Maybe i'm five D
Speaker 2: chessing because I'm like, but I also feel like it
Speaker 2: doesn't seem like she is at a stage in her
Speaker 2: grieving where she It made me sad to see this
Speaker 2: opportunity for her to genuinely connect with some one, but
Speaker 2: she's so fixated on this other thing that is not
Speaker 2: real that she's just fumbling it because she's not able
Speaker 2: to you know, and not that she has to connect
Speaker 2: with this specific person, but like it's frustrating and frustrating
Speaker 2: in a way that didn't feel uncharitable to her. But
Speaker 2: I've been in those I think everyone's been in those
Speaker 2: positions where you're so fixated on this other thing that
Speaker 2: you think is going to make you happy that something
Speaker 2: or someone who could actually provide a genuine connection passes
Speaker 2: you by because you just like are not in a
Speaker 2: place where you can see it. And especially because she's
Speaker 2: an act of mental health crisis. I feel awful for
Speaker 2: Dan Pinto, who seems to genuinely want a relationship with her,
Speaker 2: even though that seems like it's connected to a lot
Speaker 2: of his issues. Yeah, but that she has this opportunity
Speaker 2: right in front of her to genuinely connect with someone
Speaker 2: and can't see it for what it is, and that
Speaker 2: is really sad to me. I feel bad for her.
Speaker 2: This movie kind of fumbles other mental illnesses in the
Speaker 2: pursuit of doing this, but like very clearly demonstrates that
Speaker 2: social media is an addiction, and that it is an
Speaker 2: addiction that people don't understand, that is exacerbated by any
Speaker 2: other number of factors, and which for her seems like
Speaker 2: some sort of obsessive tendency and grief and depression, and
Speaker 2: like I probably talked about this on the show before,
Speaker 2: but when I was probably around this time, it was
Speaker 2: maybe a little sooner, like twenty sixteen, but I had
Speaker 2: and have OCD and it was getting so bad with
Speaker 2: specific relation to social media that I was luckily able
Speaker 2: to find a therapist who is willing to really scale
Speaker 2: his prices so that I could go into exposure therapy
Speaker 2: for social media, which the time I didn't really talk
Speaker 2: about because it is no one's business, and also I
Speaker 2: was embarrassed by it because it didn't sound like a
Speaker 2: thing that existed. But literally what the sessions were were
Speaker 2: I would go on Twitter with my therapist and we
Speaker 2: would scroll through and we would go through, like, well,
Speaker 2: what does this bring up for you? What does this
Speaker 2: bring up for you? And I was in such a
Speaker 2: bad place OCD wise that everything was an active threat
Speaker 2: and I was so spun into anxiety by looking at
Speaker 2: these things and also could not, for the life of
Speaker 2: me stop and it took I mean, we did this
Speaker 2: for a couple of months until I couldn't afford it anymore.
Speaker 2: We did it, and it really did help, and it
Speaker 2: did I mean, I don't think anyone has a healthy
Speaker 2: relationship to social media, but it certainly did turn a
Speaker 2: corner for me, and then maybe some backsliding during the
Speaker 2: pandemic who among us. I mean, I'm like, maybe I
Speaker 2: should talk about this on the other show, but like
Speaker 2: I had such a bad relationship with social media that
Speaker 2: it was like actively, you know, not to the extent
Speaker 2: that Ingrid. Ingrid is in a pretty extreme circumstance, but like,
Speaker 2: I'm glad to know that both Aubrey Plaza and the
Speaker 2: writer directors like empathize with her because I think everyone
Speaker 2: has had some experience like this, and then mine like
Speaker 2: going back, I'm like, maybe I didn't like it the
Speaker 2: first time I saw it because I didn't like the
Speaker 2: parts of myself that I saw in her, because it's
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable, and also just to see it in a
Speaker 2: time where you know, now, I still don't think that
Speaker 2: there's really a lot of practical treatment. And I feel like,
Speaker 2: you know, if you're having a hard time with your
Speaker 2: relationship with social media, most people will be like shut up,
Speaker 2: touch grass and like very unhelpful. Ugh, And I just
Speaker 2: I can't get over like people are saying touch grass
Speaker 2: to you on the internet, like, shut up, You're just
Speaker 2: as bad and maybe worse. But I guess that's my
Speaker 2: last thing I have to say about this movie. It
Speaker 2: was interesting to revisit it because I think I is
Speaker 2: ashamed and uncomfortable of the parts of me that I
Speaker 2: saw in Ingrid, and also didn't like how hopeless the
Speaker 2: end was, because I saw myself in this character and
Speaker 2: to see her so clearly about to be sucked into
Speaker 2: the same cycle again is devastating. I will say, for
Speaker 2: anyone who's struggling with this or has in the past,
Speaker 2: there are ways to improve it, a lot of it.
Speaker 2: I mean again, like if I hadn't met I literally
Speaker 2: met this therapist in the hospital. It was like shortly
Speaker 2: before the podcast started. This would have been in June
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, when all this was happening. But like, you know,
Speaker 2: if I hadn't met a psychiatrist in the hospital, where
Speaker 2: I also could not afford in or outpatient treatment, this
Speaker 2: hospital psychologist let me just sleep in the er overnight
Speaker 2: because I was so worked up, and he really generously
Speaker 2: offered to give me care that I would not have
Speaker 2: had access to otherwise. And it did genuinely change, you know,
Speaker 2: not completely fix. I don't know that it's something that
Speaker 2: can completely be fixed, but improved my relationships. So there
Speaker 2: are ways. Unfortunately they're almost always, especially if you live
Speaker 2: in the US, there's significant barriers, but there's Yeah, there
Speaker 2: are ways. So if you're struggling, babe, you could be okay.
Speaker 2: You co'd be okay, Jamie, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 2: I love to share.
Speaker 3: It's healthy to share and demonstrates the broken healthcare system
Speaker 3: in this country, because care that is helpful and life
Speaker 3: saving shouldn't be unaffordable. Jamie, is there anything else you
Speaker 3: want to talk about with this movie?
Speaker 2: I don't really think so. I feel bad, but that's
Speaker 2: what this movie wants me to do. So it's good.
Speaker 3: Right, It's effective in what it's set out to do. Yes,
Speaker 3: it does pass the Bechdel test quite a bit.
Speaker 2: Yes, many times over. Yeah, it's women having complicated feelings
Speaker 2: about how they perceive each other. Yeah, which I am
Speaker 2: always especially when there's even an iota of thought put
Speaker 2: into it. I'm always interested in movies about how women
Speaker 2: view other women or how they're conditioned or whatever, because
Speaker 2: it's like, it's very valid, and I think this movie
Speaker 2: gets across that misogyny is so prominent among men. Wow,
Speaker 2: amazing observation, Jamie hashtag genius, thank you. But just seeing
Speaker 2: how people of marginalized genders have internalized and project at others.
Speaker 2: It's very common and I feel like it is hard
Speaker 2: to write clearly, and this movie is touch and go
Speaker 2: on it. But I think that that is like a
Speaker 2: worthwhile thing to continue exploring for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, as far as our nipple scale goes zero to
Speaker 3: five nipples rating the movie based on examining it through
Speaker 3: an intersectional feminist lens. I think this movie is attempting
Speaker 3: to comment on interesting things, things that are pretty complicated
Speaker 3: and that I feel like society and medical science still
Speaker 3: doesn't know that much about. And because the filmmakers did
Speaker 3: not approach this with the intention of wanting to cast
Speaker 3: a lot of judgment on a tendency to be influenced
Speaker 3: by influencers, they, as they describe it, were empathetic toward
Speaker 3: the ingrid character and they related to her and they
Speaker 3: were like, we also feel bad when we look at Instagram.
Speaker 3: And again, there is more nuance to a lot of
Speaker 3: the characters than I guess I've been conditioned to expect
Speaker 3: because so many movies made by men are pretty relentless,
Speaker 3: especially when it comes to characters who are women, and
Speaker 3: casting a lot of judgment on them for things, again,
Speaker 3: like things that men tend to reinforce. I'm always reminded of,
Speaker 3: like the example of when men will be like, oh,
Speaker 3: why are you taking so long to get ready? Like
Speaker 3: they'll like be rate their girlfriend or whatever for taking
Speaker 3: so long to get ready, and it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 3: maybe it's because if a woman doesn't put on makeup
Speaker 3: and style their hair meticulously and shave off all of
Speaker 3: their body hair and wear certain clothes and all of
Speaker 3: this stuff, you'll think that she's disgusting.
Speaker 2: Go figure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I appreciate that the movie isn't casting that
Speaker 3: level of judgment on this, but the way that it's
Speaker 3: representing mental health and someone who's experiencing a mental health crisis,
Speaker 3: I wish it had been handled better, slash differently. And
Speaker 3: I would have liked to see this premise written and
Speaker 3: directed by women because I think it would have been
Speaker 3: handled a lot differently.
Speaker 2: Agree.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So with that in mind, I don't know, this
Speaker 3: is one of those movies that, like does the nipple
Speaker 3: scale even a plot like it's challenging it's complicated.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to do the nipple scale with satire.
Speaker 3: Yes, so maybe I'll just do a split down the
Speaker 3: middle because I don't know what else to do. And also,
Speaker 3: even though this is the most important metric of all time,
Speaker 3: it also doesn't matter. So two and a half nipples,
Speaker 3: and I'll give one to roth Coo the Dog, I'll
Speaker 3: give one to Dan Pinto's Batman Forever Soundtrack CD, and
Speaker 3: I'll give my half nipple to the lamp that cost
Speaker 3: twelve hundred dollars.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go three. I'll go three on this one. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this movie is imperfect, but better than I remembered. And
Speaker 2: I feel maybe I'm giving it more credit because I
Speaker 2: feel like I went on a personal journey and like
Speaker 2: was in conversation with past Jamie by watching this movie.
Speaker 2: But I like what it's trying to do. I don't
Speaker 2: think that it's doing it successfully, but I think it's
Speaker 2: doing it better than I've seen so far, which speaks
Speaker 2: to your point is that there is a need for
Speaker 2: a good movie about social media that is driven by
Speaker 2: really anyone but white guys, and I think it works
Speaker 2: in the thriller format. I mean there's so many different
Speaker 2: ways to talk about it. But I think that there
Speaker 2: is like an even better social media satire out there TVD.
Speaker 2: But for what we have, I think that this movie
Speaker 2: it's just way better than I remembered it, and it
Speaker 2: made me think in ways I wasn't expecting to. I
Speaker 2: do think that, Yeah, mainly for me, the way that
Speaker 2: mental health is treated differently from sequence to sequence is challenging,
Speaker 2: and I really don't like on screen suicide attempts im
Speaker 2: docking it. For that, I think that that's what I
Speaker 2: have to say.
Speaker 3: Woohoo, Jamie, tell us more about where we can listen
Speaker 3: to and find Well, wait, I didn't get to give
Speaker 3: my nip.
Speaker 2: Sorry, sorry, Okay, I'm giving one to Aubrey, I'm giving
Speaker 2: one to Elizabeth, and I'm giving one to Osha. Keep
Speaker 2: it simple, nice now tell us yes. So sixteenth Minute.
Speaker 2: The first episode of sixteenth Minute came out on Tuesday,
Speaker 2: May seventh. It is about Antoine Dodson of the bed
Speaker 2: Intruder song Fame.
Speaker 3: Wait was that the Hyder kids hide your wife?
Speaker 2: Mm hmmmm, I remember? And that is sort of how
Speaker 2: every episode of sixteenth Minute works, where it's sort of like, oh, right,
Speaker 2: that person and then we talk about it. And I
Speaker 2: spoke with Antoine Dodson for this episode as well as
Speaker 2: other people, and some episodes are, you know, more intense
Speaker 2: than others. It sort of depends from story to story.
Speaker 2: Some of it's very silly and some of it is
Speaker 2: a little more in depth. So I think you'll enjoy it.
Speaker 2: If you like this show and you don't hate my Guts,
Speaker 2: I think that you will enjoy the show. And yes,
Speaker 2: it's also produced by Sophie Lichtmann and I'm very proud
Speaker 2: and excited about it. So please check it out if
Speaker 2: you want to learn more about how the Internet is
Speaker 2: poisoning the worlds yay.
Speaker 3: And then you can follow us on the normal places. Also,
Speaker 3: you can follow me on Instagram what Kaylen Dorante Jamie
Speaker 3: where can people follow you?
Speaker 2: You can follow me at Jamie christ Superstar on Instagram
Speaker 2: where I'm constantly not I also okay, last point, last point.
Speaker 2: I feel like this also came out at a time
Speaker 2: where it's like being dishonest about exactly what was going
Speaker 2: on in your life in social media was like bad
Speaker 2: and you're like, what do you want me to do?
Speaker 2: Post to thousands of people that like Taylor is supposed
Speaker 2: to post to thousands of people that she's having difficulty
Speaker 2: in her marriage, like, what is the expectation? Anyways, No, anyways,
Speaker 2: you can see me misrepresenting my mental health state probably
Speaker 2: on my Instagram at jamiechrist Superstar.
Speaker 3: And you can see me not really posting anything on
Speaker 3: my grid, but know that I am watching cat videos
Speaker 3: and crying because of all of the stuff I'm learning
Speaker 3: about the genocides happening across the world.
Speaker 2: Got it?
Speaker 3: Follow us on social media at Bechdelcast, and we've got
Speaker 3: a Patreon aka Matreon that is at patreon dot com
Speaker 3: slash Bechdel Cast. You get two bonus episodes every month
Speaker 3: on a fun little theme that we cook up. This
Speaker 3: month is my birthday month, and so we are doing
Speaker 3: some of my favorite Pixar movies. And you can also
Speaker 3: grab our merchant teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast,
Speaker 3: and our tour is very soon.
Speaker 2: It's very soon. It's in the UK and Dublin. You
Speaker 2: can get tickets at linktree, which is in the description
Speaker 2: of this episode.
Speaker 3: So with that, hey, let's hashtag log off and touch
Speaker 3: some ground.
Speaker 2: Touch grass off. I go bye bye bye.
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Speaker 3: Caitlin Dorante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichtermany molaboord.
Speaker 3: Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals
Speaker 3: by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in merch is designed by
Speaker 3: Jamie Loftus and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For
Speaker 3: more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechdelcast