1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Unaddictioned, the podcast. My name is doctor Zinga Harrison. 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health. 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery. 6 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: have helped them along the way, and the formulas that 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time. 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: Dan Perez is the author of As Needed for Pain, 10 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: a memoir released in twenty twenty that details his addiction 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: to opioids. Dan is well known for his tenure as 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: European editor at w magazine and editor of Details magazine. 13 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: He is currently the president of ad Age and Modern Healthcare. 14 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: This conversation was so awesome because Dan shares with us 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: the moment he took that first prescription opioid and the 16 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: experience that he had, which is such a human experience 17 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: all of us can relate to, but how that ultimately 18 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: turned into addiction, and then we spend so much time 19 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: on belonging. It was just a really great conversation. I 20 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: hope you'll enjoy it. Dan, Thank you for coming on 21 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: the podcast anyway, Dan, thank you so much for joining 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: me on the Unaddictioned podcast. 23 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 2: Nice to meet you. 24 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 3: Likewise, nice to meet you. Thank you so much for having. 25 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: Me so super excited to have you here. 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: So the point of the podcast is to raise awareness 27 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: of my book, which is called Unaddictioned. What are the 28 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: things we need to unlearn that we think we know, 29 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: What are the stigmas we need to undo that are 30 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: killing people, what are the conversations we need to uncover? 31 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: And so On this podcast, we just have conversations. 32 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:01,559 Speaker 1: With people who have had their own journey to recovery, 33 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: with the idea that everyone's journey is their own journey, 34 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: but there are some recurrent pieces and somebody might hear 35 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: something that resonates with them in the formula that you're using. 36 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: That they might try out. So that's what we do. 37 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 3: That's the aim, right, is to try to help even 38 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 3: one person, right, if you're lucky, it's more than one, 39 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 3: but you set the goal at one. 40 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: Right, exactly, one person at a time, one day at 41 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: a time. 42 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: So can you just tell us who is Dan? 43 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 3: Wow? That's that's a really complicated question. 44 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I am a psychiatrist. 45 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: I you know, it's a question that I struggled with 46 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 3: for a really long time, and I think it's a 47 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 3: question that I avoided answering for a really long time. 48 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 3: So I can tell you who I am today, and 49 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 3: I'm happy to tell you who I was. But I'm 50 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 3: a dad, I'm a brother, I'm a son, a friend, 51 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 3: I am a sponsor. I am a man in his 52 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 3: early fifties who was given a second chance, and I 53 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 3: am grateful for everything that I have in my life today. 54 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: I'm a journalist, I'm a media executive, and I am, 55 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 3: you know, in recovery and really proud of the fact 56 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 3: that I am sober today. 57 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: So talk to us about the journey to identify who 58 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,839 Speaker 1: Dan is today. You kind of split us into two 59 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: epics for your life. 60 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 3: I think I did. I think lots of people, you know, 61 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 3: there are you know, every story is unique, you know, 62 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 3: but they're rarely super original, right you know? There's uh 63 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 3: do you want to disagree with it? I feel like 64 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 3: you're about the poke holes in that. 65 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: Oh no, I felt myself agreeing with that, and I 66 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: was eagerly anticipating the double click. 67 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 3: Okay, okay, I, like so many other people, struggled to 68 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 3: understand who I was and that from a very very 69 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 3: young age, and felt like everyone else around me had 70 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 3: been given the owner's manual or some form of like 71 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 3: a blueprint, but when they got to me, they ran out. 72 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 3: I didn't get one. So I went through my life 73 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 3: for many, many, many years thinking everyone else around me 74 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 3: was normal and I wasn't, for whatever reason, deeply insecure, 75 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 3: not feeling like I fit in in any meaningful way 76 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 3: into friend groups, really any any kind of group. So 77 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 3: I pretended, and I can't remember a time when I 78 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 3: wasn't pretending. And my journey was it wasn't one of 79 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 3: self discovery. I think it was one of self loathing 80 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 3: and struggling for self esteem. And I escaped where I 81 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 3: could escape. In my case, I escaped into like fantasy 82 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 3: in some ways, you know, I escaped into magic. I 83 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 3: loved doing magic tricks, and I was I would you know, 84 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 3: for hour or is practice in front of the mirror. 85 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: And this is from how young, oh gosh, he began escaping, 86 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: I know, maybe seven or eight, yeah, little. 87 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: And I was the younger brother, still am the younger brother. 88 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: Of like the town star when he was in high school. 89 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 3: You know, my brother, who is the world to me 90 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 3: and who is my best friend, and I couldn't be 91 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 3: more grateful to be His brother was the captain of 92 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 3: the sports team, was an a student, had tons of girlfriends, 93 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: and I was just this sort of you know, if 94 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 3: I wasn't Jeff's brother, two people I was. You know, 95 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 3: I didn't. I couldn't carve out an identity for myself, 96 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 3: and so I tried to hide in the shadows. And 97 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 3: you know, you kind of trip over some stuff in 98 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 3: this if you're not really paying attention. And I ultimately 99 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:04,679 Speaker 3: tripped over some stuff. 100 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, how old were you the first time you tripped? 101 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 3: I probably first, probably thirteen or fourteen, when I first 102 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 3: tried smoking pot and cigarettes. Maybe sixteen or so, when 103 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 3: I maybe first had a drink, And those things were good. 104 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: They were temporary band aids, you know, I guess that's redundant. 105 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 3: Band aids are supposed to be temporary, and I was. 106 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 3: But I started to say, oh, like, oh, this feels good. 107 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 3: This is a nice little time out. 108 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: From some relief. 109 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 3: It's some relief from like an unrelenting fire hose of anxiety. 110 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 3: And fear and self doubt, right, and so it just 111 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 3: sort of shielded me from that from that stuff. When 112 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 3: I got into my twenties, and this is a pretty 113 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 3: com and tail, I injured my back and was introduced 114 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 3: to opiate prescription painkillers, and boy, that was like coming 115 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: home for me, you know, if I had been struggling 116 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 3: for you know, at that point, maybe twenty five years, 117 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: to understand who I was and to feel the warm 118 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 3: embrace of a group of friends, I felt that warm 119 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 3: embrace from these, from these pills, and they were just 120 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 3: the coziest blanket you could want for you could hope for, 121 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 3: excuse me, and I wrapped myself in it and finally 122 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 3: felt what I believed anyway at the time was normal. 123 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 3: Right Like I said I I would always it was normal, 124 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 3: and it was me and this made me feel normal, 125 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 3: and so I went all in. 126 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: And you know, what is so funny is not the 127 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: right word. I'll use it because that's the way we 128 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: use it. When you were describing the first time you 129 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: took those opioids, I was going to tell you a 130 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: story of a patient I had in the past, who 131 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: was a woman who said, when I first took that 132 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: pain pill also after an injury. It was like the 133 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: first time I had been wrapped in the hug I 134 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: had been needing my whole life. 135 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 2: And then you literally. 136 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: Used exactly the same words. And so I think to 137 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: what you said when you first started sharing your story 138 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: with us. It's my story, but it's somewhat universal. I'm 139 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: paraphrasing you said it, like in a much more cool way. 140 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: I'm working up my coolness to. 141 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 3: Yell life, use me your goal for cool, right, it's 142 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 3: a it's a fairly low bar. 143 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's what I was reacting to when you 144 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: said that. And then literally you use the exact same 145 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: words as a woman who probably you've never ever crossed 146 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: path with. But this is part of the biological and 147 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,119 Speaker 1: psychological risk that comes along with that first opioid prescription. 148 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: Like if we're not asking, we can do a risk 149 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: assessment on that. You know, you could have told me 150 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: your whole story up to that point, and before I 151 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: wrote that first prescription for opioids, I would have known 152 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: how much risk that carried for you, because I would 153 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: have known it was going to feel like a warm hug. 154 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 3: I mean, I would gosh, I would love to think 155 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 3: that things are different now, right, this was this was 156 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 3: this was a while ago, right, and so, but yes, 157 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 3: it is like I said, you know, like in the 158 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 3: coolest way, I knew how all of our stories are unique, 159 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 3: but they are incredibly common. I am a garden variety addict, 160 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 3: and that is that's okay, right, because you know what 161 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 3: drives us into addiction, the things we do to feed 162 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 3: the addiction. You know, all of these things differ, you know, mostly, 163 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 3: but how it makes us feel, at least at first, 164 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 3: is pretty common. And you know, we're starving for that 165 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 3: warm embrace. We are starving to be taken outside of ourselves. 166 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 3: We are desperate for some kind of relief from whatever depression, anxiety, fear, 167 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 3: trauma we are dealing with. So when you feel that, 168 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 3: it's it feels like a like a a gift from God. Yeah, 169 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 3: and it feels like this release valve. You know, it's 170 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 3: finally been open. Once you feel it, you don't want 171 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 3: to stop feeling it. And that's you know, that's where 172 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 3: things get messy pretty quickly. 173 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you said, we're super sensitive about language. In the book, 174 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 2: you said, I'm a. 175 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: Garden variety addict. Your words, you just describe yourself. I think, really, 176 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: what you're describing is like garden variety human because you're 177 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: being stabbed and you're bleeding, right, And so I can't 178 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: remember who to attribute this to, but I thought it 179 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: was such an important metaphor the first time I saw it, 180 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: that said, like addiction is no more an abnormal response 181 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: to the trauma, the pain, the sense of not belonging, 182 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: the sense of not being normal, then bleeding is not 183 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: a normal response to being stabbed, right, And so while 184 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: it manifests differently in different ways, I think that is 185 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: also very guarded variety and very common. 186 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 2: If you've had eight. 187 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: Years, sixteen years, twenty five years of constant pain, the 188 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: first thing that truly relieves that pain neurobiologically saved your life, 189 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: so of course you're going to set up that cycle 190 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: for going back. 191 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 3: And so I agree it's a part of the human condition. 192 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 3: It is as common, if not more common, frankly, than 193 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 3: lots of the diseases that are talked about, you know, 194 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 3: without stigma, association. And then to your point, you know, 195 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 3: you once you feel this relief, you I anyway got 196 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: to a place where where it became my only priority. 197 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 3: I can't even say my top priority. I feel like, 198 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 3: you know, uh, it became my only priority. Well, there 199 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 3: were I guess it's bifurcated, you know, there were you know, 200 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 3: different priorities wrapped up within that only priority. One was 201 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 3: was feeding what became a fairly profound addiction. Uh. And 202 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 3: then the other piece of that is is protecting the 203 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 3: discovery of it. Right and and this is was for 204 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 3: me anyway. It's solitary thing. You know. There there are 205 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 3: lots of people that you know, go out and want 206 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 3: to drink with their friends and and maybe over drink 207 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 3: or drink alcoholically, and you know you're out and about 208 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 3: and just you know, socializing, you know, as part of 209 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 3: your addiction. In my case, it was very solitary. It 210 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 3: was something that I really felt that I needed to protect. 211 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 3: My career at the time was skyrocketing, and you know, 212 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 3: there's this fear of discovery. The great thing was that 213 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 3: I didn't look like what I guess I thought people 214 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 3: would view the quintessential addict. 215 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: I didn't we say more about this, Yeah, I mean I. 216 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 3: Didn't look like a junkie. Right. I was successful. I 217 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 3: was wearing a suit to work, I was earning great 218 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 3: money and living in a great part of town. I 219 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 3: so from a sort of socioeconomic standpoint, you know, I 220 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 3: didn't sort of necessarily check what would be the stereotypical boxes. Right. Yeah, 221 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 3: I'm a white man. And there's no doubt in my 222 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 3: mind that being a white man made it easier for 223 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: me to secure prescriptions and get them filled and and 224 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 3: and that's not where we want to be or where 225 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 3: we wanted to be anyway. Again, because this was in 226 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 3: the early, very early two thousands. Yeah, and I was 227 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 3: able to hide in plain sight for those reasons. You 228 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 3: wouldn't look at me and be like, there's something at 229 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 3: least sorry, that's almost a lie. At least in the beginning. 230 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 3: You wouldn't look at me and say, there's there's something 231 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 3: not right about this, you know. Uh and uh. And 232 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 3: I was able to con my way into what I 233 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 3: needed and wanted. Uh. And we're all con artists in 234 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 3: my view. If you're if you're hiding. 235 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: Meaning humans or we mean people, you know, I'm I 236 00:16:59,160 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: keep pussing you. 237 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 3: That's a really good question. Certainly, addicts are gonna do 238 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 3: everything they can to not get caught and to make 239 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 3: sure that they're able to get what they need. And 240 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 3: so lying you know, becomes second nature, you know, like blinking. 241 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 3: You know, you don't even really think about it. You 242 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 3: just sort of do it. It's almost like a pathological response. 243 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 3: And this this you know, addiction for me, and I 244 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 3: think broadly speaking, you know, it's so powerful that any 245 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 3: lies or acts of deception, uh really don't matter, you know. 246 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 3: You sort of like I said, in my case, I 247 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 3: was really just prioritizing one thing, and so I would do. 248 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess I you know, it wasn't about 249 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 3: to go rob a pharmacy. I thought about it, right, 250 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 3: I thought about like how amazing it would be to 251 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 3: be able to like, you know, break into a pharmacy 252 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:13,959 Speaker 3: and just sort of like you know, Horde bottles and fills. 253 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 3: But you know, I didn't do it. What I was 254 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 3: doing was unlawful though I was feeling multiple prescriptions, I 255 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 3: was seeing multiple doctors. I drove down the Tijuana at 256 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 3: one point and bought a thousand tablets of extra strength 257 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 3: vicodin or vicodin es. And you know, I certainly wasn't 258 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 3: a saint, but I guess I drew the line at 259 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 3: you know, breaking and entering what we. 260 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: Spent a fair amount of time talking about what you're 261 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: talking about in the book, and starting with this concept 262 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: of what a person with addiction looks like and how 263 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: this is one of the things we need to unlearn 264 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: that we think we know, because really it's forty six 265 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: percent of people in America know someone who has this illness. 266 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 2: That's one and two. 267 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: And so if you just look around, that's not the person, 268 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: like you said, who was homeless on the street lost 269 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: their job, like it is also the white man in 270 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: a suit driving a nice car going to work every day. 271 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: And even you said, I didn't look like quote a junkie. 272 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: We talk about the power of words, which is like 273 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: that person has the value of junk right, But what 274 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: we value here in America is a nice suit and 275 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: a job and a nice car. And so we're valuing 276 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: all of those things that you have, and that's putting 277 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: blinders on us to see how much you're struggling. You 278 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: caught yourself at one point and you said, I mean 279 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: in the beginning, So was there a point at which 280 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: people start to see your struggle? 281 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 3: I think so, I think it becomes all consuming and 282 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: and you know you're chasing something that you'll never catch again. Right, 283 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 3: that embrace that first embrace becomes the ideal, So it 284 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 3: it becomes a it's no longer like a treat or 285 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 3: it's not the relief that it was right. Uh, it 286 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 3: becomes your baseline, and it becomes how you need, like 287 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 3: what you need to do the bare minimum, right. So 288 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 3: I think in my case, the cracks started to show, 289 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 3: you know, maybe the lies started to get a little 290 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 3: repetitive or a little too ornate, or or my ability 291 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 3: to focus and be present and sort of shriveled down 292 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 3: to nothing essentially. So yes, I think to any you know, 293 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 3: kind of caring observer, it was it was clear there 294 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 3: was something wrong. 295 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an important emphasis, you know. 296 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 3: And then to the average person who knows, probably not right. 297 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 3: But to the people within in my orbit, people that 298 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 3: cared for me, loved me, depended on me, I was 299 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 3: I think obviously not present or dependable, reliable, responsible, sort 300 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 3: of a lot of words that ultimately mean the same thing. 301 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 3: And and I think that that became obvious. Yeah, ultimately. 302 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: And so what led to your first step on the 303 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: recovery journey? Was it one of these caring observers? I 304 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: love that like using it going forward? Did anyone you know, 305 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: like know how to come to you and say hey, 306 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: I'm concerned or something else. 307 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 3: Not initially, I think initially I started getting a little 308 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 3: freaked out, and I realized that I was an addict, 309 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 3: and I realized that it was a problem, and I 310 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 3: realized that there was a good chance that I would die. 311 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 3: And I tried to stop many times, and I wanted 312 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 3: to stop before the discovery happened. Right, I made the 313 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 3: mistake that so many people make, I think, which is 314 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: thinking I could do it alone. 315 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: And that you had to do it alone, right, because 316 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: you still have to protect. 317 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 3: You still have to protect. 318 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is you know. 319 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 3: That, that's because the stigma is real, deadly and and 320 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 3: you know, I mean, who in their right mind wouldn't 321 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 3: immediately reach out to their friends loved ones and say, 322 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 3: my god, I have diabetes. Oh my god, I have 323 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 3: this condition. Uh, you know, whatever the case may be, right, Like, 324 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 3: you don't hesitate to do that. You let's go. You 325 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 3: talk to your employer about it, You talk to your 326 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 3: loved ones, your family. Uh and uh, and people are 327 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 3: like rally around you and shower you with support and 328 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 3: of course love not that much. This is not that case, 329 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 3: and and that stigma to your point is what leads 330 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 3: to so many deaths and what kept me going for 331 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 3: another several years after I acknowledge to myself that I 332 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 3: had a problem and that I wanted to stop. And ultimately, 333 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 3: and I tried, right, I would, I would, I would 334 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 3: stop on my own and I just wouldn't be able 335 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 3: to do it. And sometimes it would be a week, 336 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 3: sometimes it would be a day, sometimes maybe a couple 337 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 3: of weeks at the most, and uh, and I would 338 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 3: would would fall right back, you know, into it. And 339 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 3: so it's not until I realized that not only did 340 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 3: I need help, but I also realized that there's this 341 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 3: huge network and community of people who are dying to help, 342 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 3: and and that is that this is the miracle of recovery. 343 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 3: Right now? 344 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: Did you come to know this, Dan, because somebody listening 345 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: doesn't know this. 346 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 3: Through a lot of pain and through a lot of fear, 347 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 3: but I I believe that reaching out for help is 348 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 3: what saved my life. And being pushed to get help, 349 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 3: you know, by people in my life, saved my life. 350 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 3: And not fighting them, not denying it, not trying to 351 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 3: keep the con going, but finally saying, okay, this is 352 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 3: bad because the reality is I should not be here 353 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,239 Speaker 3: talking to you today. It is an absolute miracle that 354 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 3: I am alive today. 355 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 2: That's how severe your illness was. 356 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 3: It was so powerful. Yeah, I was taking massive amounts 357 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 3: of ovoids. But there's this help is out there, and 358 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 3: there are people that really truly do want to help. 359 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 3: And being on the receiving end of that feels wonderful. 360 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 3: But I will tell you, being on the giving end 361 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 3: of it feels even. 362 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 2: Better, even wonderfuler. 363 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 3: Even wonderfuller. Exactly, you know. 364 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: So this is the perfect segue we talk about the 365 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: magic formula. So we started out talking about everybody's journey 366 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: into addiction is different though common garden variety themes, right, 367 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: and we collect those themes in the book into biological, psychological, 368 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: and environmental, with physical and cultural representing the environment. 369 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 2: And then we say, and so. 370 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: Of course it has to be that everybody's formula for 371 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: recovery is their own formula and can change over time. 372 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: So you just alluded to a big part of your formula, 373 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 1: which is the wonderfuller ability to give it back. Can 374 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: you talk to us about when you first started your 375 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: recovery journey, what were the pieces of your formula and 376 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: how has that changed to what it is today? 377 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 3: Sure, I believe that there's not just one path to 378 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 3: recover it, and so I want to I want to. 379 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 2: Say that, say it louder for the people in the back. 380 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 3: I can only talk about what I did and what 381 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 3: worked for me, but there's not a one size fits all, 382 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 3: And it's really important for me to stress that I 383 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 3: got into a twelve step program and worked those steps 384 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 3: and attended those meetings daily. It's important to say though that, 385 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 3: like I was ready, and you have to be ready. 386 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 3: In my opinion, you have to be ready to do 387 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 3: it for yourself. You can't do it for anyone else. 388 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 3: Other people can help you get there, other people can 389 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,239 Speaker 3: push you. I believe in tough love. I believe in 390 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 3: you know, families and friends and colleagues, employers, whatever the 391 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 3: case may be, spouses, you know, pushing. But you will 392 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,479 Speaker 3: only step toward it if you're ready to step toward it, 393 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 3: in my view, So I went into a twelve step 394 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 3: program and I went to meetings religiously. I started to 395 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 3: work the steps within that program and try to unpack 396 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 3: what was happening to me and why I was there. 397 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 3: And I used that program at least initially anyway, as 398 00:28:53,880 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 3: a substitute for using I would go I it became 399 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 3: my priority. 400 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 2: Did it become your warm embrace? 401 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 3: Ultimately? I think initially you're terrified. You walk into these 402 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 3: rooms and you're like, oh my god, you know, am 403 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 3: I like these people? And you realize, yes, hell, yes 404 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 3: I am. And so you know, there's there's a lot 405 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 3: of aside from the sort of acute physical symptoms, yeah, 406 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 3: the withdrawal symptoms that come with stopping taking opioids, then 407 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 3: there's just sort of like fear and shame, and you're 408 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 3: made to feel pretty comfortable very quickly in these rooms. 409 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 2: Are you comfortable sharing what twelve step program you did? 410 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 3: Sure? I went into alcoholics anonymous, and I identify as 411 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,959 Speaker 3: an alcoholic. I don't, necessarily and guy ever drank alcoholically, 412 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 3: but I haven't had a drink in over sixteen years 413 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 3: and I haven't swelled, you know, I haven't taken any 414 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 3: drugs in over sixteen years, and I identify as an alcoholic. 415 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 3: And to your point, it does become your warm embrace 416 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 3: because you realize, a everyone's fucked up, we are all normal, right, 417 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 3: and that's that's the norm, right. And I was sort 418 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 3: of living under this sort of illusion, this idea that 419 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 3: I was missing a chip, you know, and it was 420 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 3: somehow broken. We're all broken in our own way, and 421 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,239 Speaker 3: it manifests itself in us in different ways. This is 422 00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 3: how it manifests itself in me, and so being with 423 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:11,959 Speaker 3: people like me was incredibly and remains an incredibly comforting experience. 424 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 3: And this is true of this is why we have groups. Right, Oh, 425 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 3: this is a I'm a cancer survivor. There's a group 426 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 3: for that. 427 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 4: And that's right, I'm you know whatever it is, you know, 428 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 4: and you know the comfort that you feel being a 429 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 4: part of this group is it's pretty miraculous. 430 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: Frankly, I love the way it lights up your face. 431 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: No, this is the podcast, so people can't see it, 432 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: but literally you like brightens you up. 433 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 3: Well you think you know. It goes back to this 434 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 3: sort of stereotypical like idea of what an addict looks like. 435 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 3: And I've found myself building what I'm certain will be 436 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 3: lifelong friendships with people that if you saw us together 437 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 3: sitting in a restaurant, you might be like, what is 438 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 3: the situation with it? Like, like, what is this is 439 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 3: a real mixed bag? Right? And there was a guy 440 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 3: I got sober in New York. I was living in 441 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 3: New York City at the time. And for those that 442 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 3: know New York, if you you know, you walk through 443 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 3: Times Square, you got a million people coming up to 444 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 3: you asking you for you got like Elmo, you got 445 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 3: Spider Man, you got the Naked Cowboy? Yes, And you 446 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 3: also have lots of people coming up to you and 447 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 3: saying like, hey, do you like comedy, trying to get 448 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 3: you to go to a comedy show. You know, assuming 449 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 3: these comedy clubs just like go to Times Square and 450 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 3: like round up a bunch of tourists. So I was 451 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 3: sober probably for three four six months maybe, And my 452 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 3: office at the time was in Times Square, number four 453 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 3: Times Square, and I was going with a number of 454 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 3: colleagues to lunch and we had to cross through Times 455 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 3: Square to kind of ultimately get to where we were going. 456 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 3: And coming at us, we're all in suits, and you 457 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 3: know whatever coming at us as a guy's torn sweatshirt. 458 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 3: Jeans have even more holes in them than the sweatshirt missing, missing, 459 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 3: you know, a couple of kind of critical teeth and 460 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 3: comes up. He's holding a sign for a comedy show, 461 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 3: and I'm assuming everyone's mind was like, oh, here comes 462 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 3: this guy. And he comes up and he's like hey man. 463 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 3: I'm like hey, other hug, and like, how are you. 464 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 3: He's like, I'm great, man, I'm great, suns shining, I'm alive, 465 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,919 Speaker 3: I feel good. I'm like, man, that's also it's great 466 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,240 Speaker 3: to see you and keep walking and and the people 467 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 3: that are with me are. 468 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: Like, what the fuck was that? 469 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh, that's that's my buddy, Rob, you know, 470 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,919 Speaker 3: and you just kind of keep going and and this 471 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 3: you realize, you know, that being the same lies very 472 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 3: much below the surface has nothing to do with the 473 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 3: with the with the surface. And when you are looking 474 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 3: for help, the guy that's missing a couple of teeth 475 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 3: and as out trying to round people up to go 476 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 3: to a comedy show is as much, if not more, 477 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 3: the answer for you than than anyone else on the 478 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 3: face of the earth. 479 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 2: You know, Yes, I love it. Oh look my hearts. 480 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, video, I love it so much because at our 481 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: core belonging and like you said, below the surface, at 482 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: the deepest, most innate biological level, we are pack animals 483 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: that embrace matters, that belonging, matters that being seen and 484 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: being loved for who you are matters so far below 485 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: the surface, but in ways that are absolutely critical really 486 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: to survival. 487 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 3: They are and if it's if people, and again listen, 488 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 3: you know, sadly, in twenty twenty four, I don't think 489 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 3: a ton has changed, right, But when I spoke earlier 490 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 3: about you know, being well dressed, and you know, having 491 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 3: a suit and a tie, and nice pur shoes, a 492 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 3: nice watch on my wrist, a nice job, very clear 493 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 3: advantages of at the time, certainly of being a white man. 494 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 3: All of that, right, if we think about it, you know, 495 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 3: all of that is utter nonsense, right, And you know, 496 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 3: I'm not here to change the world. I'm here to 497 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 3: help people understand that there's hope, yes, right. But if 498 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 3: I were to change the world, okay, you know it 499 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 3: would it would be it's these super simple lessons, the 500 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 3: same ones that I try to sort of impart on 501 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 3: my children. You know, don't judge a book by its cover, 502 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 3: Like you never know who's dealing with what, and you 503 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 3: never know who can help you, yep, And you never know, 504 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 3: truly ever know like who who are going to be 505 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,720 Speaker 3: your lifelong friends? You just don't know. The male, female, black, white, 506 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 3: young old teeth, no teeth, It doesn't it doesn't matter. 507 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 3: And it's such a mistake to look at the world 508 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 3: that way, and so many people do. And I understand that, 509 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 3: and I'm not here to preach about that. I can 510 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 3: say that, you know, my experiences have in recovery with 511 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 3: the recovery community, which is vast and global and speaks 512 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 3: every language, have been some of the most amazing experiences 513 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 3: of my life. 514 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, you took me to church right there. I was like, yes, 515 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 2: what else? 516 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: But alas we are coming to the end of this conversation, 517 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: and so I like to ask everybody this question as 518 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:52,399 Speaker 1: we're on the way out. 519 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 2: I opened up and introduced an addiction. 520 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,240 Speaker 1: Unlearned what we think we know, and do the stigma 521 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: that's killing people, uncover the conversations we need to have. 522 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: And so I think we just had one of those conversations. 523 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 2: So thank you. If there's one thing you want. 524 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: To leave us with, one thing to unlearn, or one 525 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: stigma to undo, or one conversation to uncover, what would 526 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: you leave us with. 527 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 3: I'll do I'm gonna do two. 528 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,240 Speaker 2: All right, I'll take to overachiever. It's fine. 529 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 3: I would say, get past the fear and ask for help, 530 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 3: So be unafraid. 531 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 2: Okay, yes, fine. 532 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 3: And the second thing I would say is, once you've 533 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 3: you're on that journey, and there's no finish line, right, 534 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 3: it's a daily journey. Once you're on that journey, everyone's 535 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,479 Speaker 3: different about how vocal they want to be, and I 536 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 3: totally respect that. So talk to people in private if 537 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 3: that's where your comfort level takes you. Talk to people 538 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 3: in public, if that's where your comfort level takes you. 539 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 3: It shouldn't be easier to get the drug than it 540 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 3: is to get the treatment. Yes, and the more we 541 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 3: talk about it, the easier it'll be to get get 542 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 3: the treatment. 543 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 2: I love it. I got nothing to say after that. Amazing. 544 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming. 545 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 3: It has been fun. Thank you so much for having. 546 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 2: Me so good. Thank you so much for tuning in. 547 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,799 Speaker 1: And if you like this episode, please check out my 548 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: book on addiction, Six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save 549 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: a Life, available at Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, dot Org, 550 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: Union Squaring Company, Amazon. 551 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 2: And wherever books are sold. 552 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: If you like to this episode, please share it with 553 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: someone you think may need to hear it. Also, please 554 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star review. 555 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: That helps us reach any and everyone who may be 556 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: looking for support in the face of addiction.