WEBVTT - How Sports Shape the Gender Debates

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning, Keeps, and welcome to look f Daily with

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<v Speaker 1>Meet Your Girl Daniel Moody recording pre recording from the

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<v Speaker 1>Long Island Bunker, Folks, I'm very excited to bring you

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<v Speaker 1>a conversation this morning with a really thoughtful author and journalist,

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<v Speaker 1>Katie Barnes. Katie is an award winning journalist and writer

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<v Speaker 1>at ESPN covering the intersections of sports and gender. Their

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<v Speaker 1>upcoming book, fair Play, How Sports Shape the Gender Debate

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<v Speaker 1>will be released mid next month. And Katie and I

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<v Speaker 1>get into a conversation largely around how women have been

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<v Speaker 1>treated in sports, and then move into a conversation about

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<v Speaker 1>the demonization of non binary and transgender athletes. And it

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<v Speaker 1>is a really good and thoughtful conversation because, look, I

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<v Speaker 1>am not somebody that is saying that there aren't issues

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<v Speaker 1>to be concerned with, right with regard to expanding who

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<v Speaker 1>plays sports and how they play sports and the competitive nature,

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<v Speaker 1>but particularly for those that are in elite sports is

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<v Speaker 1>very different. Right then we're talking about denying a trans

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<v Speaker 1>girl or a trans boy access to being able to

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<v Speaker 1>find camaraderie and community with their classmates. Very different when

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about a D one level athlete that is

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<v Speaker 1>aspiring to be a professional athlete, and one where we're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about allowing kids to be kids and be able

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<v Speaker 1>to play and developed skills, social skills that sports really

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<v Speaker 1>do help you develop, right, And an understanding of team

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<v Speaker 1>and individual and all of these things that you learn.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, and I think back to when I

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<v Speaker 1>was growing up and running track and running cross country

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<v Speaker 1>and what I learned about being a leader and a teammate,

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<v Speaker 1>what I learned about discipline and dedication and focus, And

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<v Speaker 1>shouldn't we want write all kids to experience that? Then

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you watch recently the Women's World Cup and

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<v Speaker 1>you see what happened with regard to the amount of

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<v Speaker 1>people that tuned in the largest audiences that they've ever seen.

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<v Speaker 1>You also see the treatment of one of the winning team,

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<v Speaker 1>Spain's players being kissed on the mouth, right, and you're

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<v Speaker 1>just like, would this happen any other place? No, So

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<v Speaker 1>there are so many conversations to be had about what

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<v Speaker 1>it means to respect people, what it means to expand

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<v Speaker 1>our thinking. Just because things have been one way doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>mean that it stays that way. That's the beauty of progress,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the beauty of change, and It's the one thing

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<v Speaker 1>that you can actually count on is that things will

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<v Speaker 1>change right, and how we change with them will be

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<v Speaker 1>the differentiator between the experience being good right and one

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<v Speaker 1>that you can learn from and one being terrible and

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<v Speaker 1>feeling like you're being pushed in a different direction. And

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<v Speaker 1>so the conversation that I get into today with Katie

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<v Speaker 1>Barnes is really good, and I would love to hear

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<v Speaker 1>from all of you about how you think about gender

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<v Speaker 1>and sports and the intersections and the conversations that have

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<v Speaker 1>come up. Whether it be about equal pay, equal coverage

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<v Speaker 1>for professional app whether it be about trans kids being

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<v Speaker 1>allowed or disallowed in sports. What are your feelings about

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<v Speaker 1>that intersection of gender and sports. That conversation with Katie

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<v Speaker 1>Barnes is coming up next, folks. I am very excited

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<v Speaker 1>to welcome to ook F Daily Katie Barnes, who is

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<v Speaker 1>the author of the book fair Play, How Sports Shape

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<v Speaker 1>the Gender Debates. And Katie, I want to start off

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<v Speaker 1>with saying, let me just put it out there. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I played, and I guess I didn't play. You don't

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<v Speaker 1>play a running sport. I ran track. I ran you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I ran track, I ran cross country. You know loved

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<v Speaker 1>participating in sports when I was growing up, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it was often you know, I am of generation where

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<v Speaker 1>it was the thing that you put your kids in

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<v Speaker 1>to like build up their self esteem and to build up,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, their ability to connect with one another, right,

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<v Speaker 1>to build up their coping skills, right, and empathy and

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<v Speaker 1>all of these different things. I find sports in a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of ways to be invaluable. And you know what

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<v Speaker 1>we've seen, though, I would say, particularly, and you tell me,

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<v Speaker 1>as you have studied this and you've written about this

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<v Speaker 1>and interviewed folks, is that over the last maybe ten

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<v Speaker 1>to fifteen years, there has really been a real direct

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<v Speaker 1>attack by conservatives to one redefined and solidify the gender

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<v Speaker 1>binary right, to make it certain that only some type

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<v Speaker 1>of kids get to participate and that everyone else is

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<v Speaker 1>left out gender queer, non binary, trans youth and not

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<v Speaker 1>only left out, but really marginalized, right, really made to

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<v Speaker 1>carry the burden of their community and be signaled out.

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<v Speaker 1>Like there was a story, a horrific story a young

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<v Speaker 1>girl I think I was throwing shot put a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of months ago, and an onlooker started screaming, she's not

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<v Speaker 1>a girl, She's not a girl. And her parent like

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<v Speaker 1>totally was just like, what is happening? So I just

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<v Speaker 1>want to get your feeling on kind of where we

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<v Speaker 1>have gone from sports being the thing that brought people

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<v Speaker 1>together to it now being one of the flat the

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<v Speaker 1>biggest flash points of the conservative rights culture war.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, unpack, That's why it was like, let me write

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<v Speaker 2>an entire book about it. So I think the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>thing is actually I think we used to talked about

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<v Speaker 2>how it's been last ten to fifteen years. It's actually

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<v Speaker 2>been much quicker than that. It's been like maybe five

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<v Speaker 2>years from a real concerted effort three years. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>the first bill that was enacted into law that really

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<v Speaker 2>restricted transgender girls' ability to participate in girls' sports didn't

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<v Speaker 2>pass until Idaho did it in twenty twenty. So this

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<v Speaker 2>is really only the last few years that we've seen

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<v Speaker 2>this grow into being such such a large flashpoint that

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<v Speaker 2>it's receiving a tremendous amount of legislative attention. There are

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<v Speaker 2>lots of points of cultural difference that don't receive legislative attention,

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<v Speaker 2>but this is one that really has and it's only

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<v Speaker 2>been a few years. And I think one of the

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<v Speaker 2>reasons why this has happened. Is really to your point

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<v Speaker 2>about sports being the thing that everybody kind of put

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<v Speaker 2>their kids into, is that it's of great cultural import

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<v Speaker 2>for us as a society. People have feelings about sports,

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<v Speaker 2>right like, whether we're talking about their own like your

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<v Speaker 2>own you know activity, you know, I can still talk

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<v Speaker 2>about games that I played in high school, right like,

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<v Speaker 2>you have your own individual experience, but then you also

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<v Speaker 2>have fandom, you have hopes, you have dreams. That people

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<v Speaker 2>have a real emotional tie to their sporting experiences, whether

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<v Speaker 2>that be as a participant from an athlete perspective or

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<v Speaker 2>as a spectator and a fan. And then I think

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<v Speaker 2>because sports, the way that we are globally organized from

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<v Speaker 2>a sporting perspective is in a gender binary. And there

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<v Speaker 2>are many reasons for that. And I don't necessarily think

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<v Speaker 2>that that is a bad thing when we talk about

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<v Speaker 2>elite sports, but that is the truth of it. And

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<v Speaker 2>so if you're trying to reinforce a gender binary, right

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<v Speaker 2>then sports gives you a really good opportunity to do so.

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<v Speaker 2>And it preys upon all of our cultural baggage around

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<v Speaker 2>sports and around gender in terms of assumptions that we make,

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<v Speaker 2>feelings that we have all of that is wrapped up

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<v Speaker 2>in you know, our sporting experiences, and I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>just playing out in a very you know, tense national

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<v Speaker 2>drama as it were.

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<v Speaker 1>When you say just now that like when you're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about elite sports, you're not so concerned necessarily like with

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<v Speaker 1>the with the gender breakdown. Can you can you speak

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<v Speaker 1>more to that? Because I've had as a as a

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<v Speaker 1>queer woman, I've had so many debates about how sport,

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<v Speaker 1>how how who should be allowed in and who shouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>be allowed in And a a trans woman that is

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<v Speaker 1>a swimmer shouldn't be able to swim against a field

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<v Speaker 1>of CIS women and then like sweep all of the

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<v Speaker 1>all of the metals because of their their different hormone

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<v Speaker 1>levels and ability and wingspan and all of these things.

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<v Speaker 1>So talk to me about what you just said, because

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<v Speaker 1>I want to dig it, because I get it. I

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<v Speaker 1>have gotten into this conversation, I like to say, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>conversation it ended up in a fight. But I got

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<v Speaker 1>into a conversation and ended up in an argument about

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<v Speaker 1>that very fat and these were other queer people, mind you,

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<v Speaker 1>that I was having this conversation with. So was not

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<v Speaker 1>sitting around with like a bunch of you know, like

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<v Speaker 1>straight conservatives.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, I hear that. I think so for me,

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<v Speaker 2>it's multi layered. And the first is that they're from

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<v Speaker 2>a data perspective. There are some uncomfortable truths when we

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<v Speaker 2>look at individual sports. So thinking about swimming, track and field,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, powerlifting, I just to sort of name a few,

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<v Speaker 2>So those sports that are rooted in strength, speed and

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<v Speaker 2>power and are from an individual competitive standpoint, there's just

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<v Speaker 2>a reality that from a sex separation standpoint, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>reason that we do that. Like and I give this

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<v Speaker 2>example in fair Play, where you know Shakari Richardson when

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<v Speaker 2>she ran a ten point seven to two in the

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<v Speaker 2>women's hundred meter, it was like the sixth fastest time

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<v Speaker 2>ever at that moment for women. And you know the

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<v Speaker 2>kid who won the Connecticut State Open on the boys

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<v Speaker 2>side in the one hundred meter that year, Connecticut's a

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<v Speaker 2>small state, did so with a ten point six y nine, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like that that's just a those are numbers, Like, that's

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<v Speaker 2>just a truth. And so when it comes to think

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<v Speaker 2>reimagining what's wars looks like, which I think there are

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people who want to do that. When

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<v Speaker 2>it comes to sports like track and swimming and powerlifting,

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<v Speaker 2>it's really hard to do without essentially removing women from

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<v Speaker 2>being able to hold world records and win gold medals

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<v Speaker 2>that are of equal import as what the men are

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<v Speaker 2>able to do. So that's why I say that from

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<v Speaker 2>a leaf perspective, where from a sex separation standpoint, like

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<v Speaker 2>I don't really have an issue with it when it

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<v Speaker 2>comes to Olympic level competition because I want women to

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<v Speaker 2>hold world records and the data would suggest that they

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<v Speaker 2>would not be able to if we, you know, organize

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<v Speaker 2>sport by heighten for example. But similarly, right like I

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<v Speaker 2>also from a capitalistic standpoint, don't trust capitalism to not

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<v Speaker 2>function in a sexist manner when it comes to prioritizing

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<v Speaker 2>girls and women. From a like, you know, from a

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<v Speaker 2>resource and opportunity standpoint, like, women in the United States

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<v Speaker 2>are entitled to equal access to sports under the law,

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<v Speaker 2>and that is not happening whether we're talking about the

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<v Speaker 2>high school level or the college level. And so I

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<v Speaker 2>have a hard time believing that if we got rid

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<v Speaker 2>of gender categories in different ways that women would be

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<v Speaker 2>would be on the receiving end of resource investment. Even

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<v Speaker 2>without such protections. So I have those feelings too, But

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<v Speaker 2>then I think into like the real heart of your

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<v Speaker 2>question around having these conversations from an elite level standpoint,

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<v Speaker 2>Our elite athletes are subject to an intense level of scrutiny,

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<v Speaker 2>whether you believe that that is okay or not. So

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<v Speaker 2>we test their urine, for example, to make sure that

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<v Speaker 2>they're not doping. We know the wing span of Michael Phelps, right,

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<v Speaker 2>We know the wing span of these athletes. Like we

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<v Speaker 2>talk about bone length and density and VO two max

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<v Speaker 2>and there are all kinds of physical, logical and metabolic

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<v Speaker 2>indicators that we discuss when it comes to our olympians

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<v Speaker 2>because those are the differentiators. And so there's a discussion

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<v Speaker 2>of bodies when it comes to our elite athletes that

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<v Speaker 2>regardless of your level of comfort with such a thing,

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<v Speaker 2>it happens, and that's not I would think that that

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<v Speaker 2>would be very strange if we were talking about our

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<v Speaker 2>you know, third grade soccer team in the same way, right, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>the stakes are different and the scrutiny mirrors that. And

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<v Speaker 2>so when we're having those discussions about restrictions and what's

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<v Speaker 2>appropriate and what isn't appropriate, and we're having that at

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<v Speaker 2>an elite level, it's a fundamentally different conversation. But what

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<v Speaker 2>I have found in my reporting is that they're not

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<v Speaker 2>treated as fundamentally different conversations. So a discussion about what

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<v Speaker 2>policy regulation should look like when it comes to Olympic

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<v Speaker 2>level swimming suddenly becomes a discussion irrelevant discussion in what

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<v Speaker 2>laws should be passed to regulate elementary school sports. And

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<v Speaker 2>from a stakes perspective, those two are not the same.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think, got it. I kind of answer your question,

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<v Speaker 2>But that's generally those are my feelings about that.

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<v Speaker 1>No, but I think that you're right to frame it

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of the stakes. Right when you're talking about

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<v Speaker 1>Olympic you know, competition that the stakes and the representation,

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<v Speaker 1>the monetary gain, all of those things they matter on

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<v Speaker 1>a very big level. Right when we're talking about I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know, fifth graders running track, like, is this really

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<v Speaker 1>a conversation that we need to be having inside of

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<v Speaker 1>our school systems? Like should should? I guess the question

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<v Speaker 1>that I have for you is that when it pertains

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<v Speaker 1>to young people, should it be that unless you're at

0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:03.160
<v Speaker 1>let's say, the elite gymnastics training camp that your parents

0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.160
<v Speaker 1>send the Simon Biles and the Gabby Douglasses and those

0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.880
<v Speaker 1>people too, because you show exceptional merit, you know, and

0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.760
<v Speaker 1>scholar in this in this sport. If you're if it's

0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.600
<v Speaker 1>just a bunch of kids that like are playing and

0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:22.720
<v Speaker 1>learning about competition and their bodies and themselves, like, should

0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:27.320
<v Speaker 1>we be in this legislative political space around it? And

0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.000
<v Speaker 1>or should we and and should we just say exactly

0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.440
<v Speaker 1>what you said, like the stakes are not really that high.

0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.239
<v Speaker 1>It's so essentially it's not that serious.

0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm inclined to say it's not that serious,

0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:42.000
<v Speaker 2>But what I will say is that I think in general,

0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:46.600
<v Speaker 2>this conversation has gotten so distorted. That's what I mean

0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:50.400
<v Speaker 2>by that is we're having all of these different conversations

0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:54.000
<v Speaker 2>about sports and policy and law at the same time,

0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.040
<v Speaker 2>and it's really hard to delineate what conversation we're having.

0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:03.960
<v Speaker 2>So for example, you know, when Leah Thomas was swimming

0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.040
<v Speaker 2>in twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two and was really,

0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, being very successful during that swim season. She

0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:15.920
<v Speaker 2>was competing in Division one sports, and yet I distinctly

0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.400
<v Speaker 2>remember watching a hearing in my home state of Indiana

0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:22.080
<v Speaker 2>as they were considering passing a restrictive law, which ultimately

0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:27.920
<v Speaker 2>was passed, you know, and that law was targeting specifically

0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.560
<v Speaker 2>high school age students and younger, and yet Leah Thomas

0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.240
<v Speaker 2>was invoked as the reason for why that needed to happen.

0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.840
<v Speaker 2>And from my perspective as a journalist and someone who's

0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.520
<v Speaker 2>knowledge about the topic, I'm like, well, wait, Like we

0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:45.560
<v Speaker 2>can talk about Leah Thomas, but that doesn't have anything

0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:49.119
<v Speaker 2>to do with why we're restricting participation for fifth, sixth, seventh,

0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:53.720
<v Speaker 2>eighth graders or you know, non elite high school competition.

0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.560
<v Speaker 2>And so I think a lot of folks don't necessarily

0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.480
<v Speaker 2>realize the breadth of the legislation has passed, and that

0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.600
<v Speaker 2>it's not just talking about high school, which is messy

0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.840
<v Speaker 2>from a puberty perspective, it's messy in general or from

0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.719
<v Speaker 2>an elite college standpoint, right, Like, you know, it's not

0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.520
<v Speaker 2>just focusing on that. A lot of these laws go

0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.280
<v Speaker 2>all the way down to elementary school. Sometimes they start

0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.719
<v Speaker 2>at fifth or sixth grade. Some of them cover all

0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:26.960
<v Speaker 2>elementary school. And they don't just affect competitive college sports.

0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.199
<v Speaker 2>They also affect club level college sports, which is essentially

0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.720
<v Speaker 2>pay to play in college, and even intramurals, which will

0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:40.080
<v Speaker 2>affect you know, sometimes with intermural sports at large public universities,

0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:43.000
<v Speaker 2>those aren't just open to students, and again that's also

0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.760
<v Speaker 2>paid to participate. You there's usually a fee. They're also

0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.280
<v Speaker 2>open to they can be open to faculty and staff

0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.280
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes community members depending on the school. So those

0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:57.880
<v Speaker 2>are wide reaching laws that have you know, influenced far

0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:01.520
<v Speaker 2>beyond what we would consider to be compe sport, which

0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.800
<v Speaker 2>when we think about stakes in terms of what is

0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.400
<v Speaker 2>what is relevant when it comes to how sports should

0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:10.920
<v Speaker 2>be regulated. I think that's far outside the bounds of

0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.840
<v Speaker 2>what most people would consider to be reasonable. But a

0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:15.760
<v Speaker 2>lot of folks don't know that that's what these laws do,

0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:18.840
<v Speaker 2>and so, you know, for me, it was always it's

0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:22.359
<v Speaker 2>really important to really put a fine, you know, fine

0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:24.560
<v Speaker 2>point on what it is that is happening when it

0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:26.600
<v Speaker 2>comes to the passage of these laws and how broad

0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:30.080
<v Speaker 2>they are. Well also acknowledging that, sure, we can have

0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.560
<v Speaker 2>different conversations about what appropriate policy is, but that's not

0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.600
<v Speaker 2>the conversation that is happening legislatively in the United States.

0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:42.840
<v Speaker 2>It's a very broad attack specifically on transgender youth, and

0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.680
<v Speaker 2>I think that tends to surprise folks because they think

0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.959
<v Speaker 2>that it's you know that it's a discussion about Division

0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.919
<v Speaker 2>one sports, and well that's reasonable. It's like, no, it

0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:56.320
<v Speaker 2>also is a discussion about fifth graders and fourth graders

0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:01.000
<v Speaker 2>and you know, intramural level sports. And it begs the

0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.600
<v Speaker 2>question of, you know, when we think about the typical

0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.840
<v Speaker 2>sporting experience for the overhalling majority of US, it's co

0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:12.520
<v Speaker 2>ed and recreational basically, right, And so at what point

0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:15.600
<v Speaker 2>then are we going to start having discussions about, well,

0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.399
<v Speaker 2>are we gonna see who plays pick up at the Why? Like,

0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:19.960
<v Speaker 2>are we going to put restrictions on that? Are we

0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.400
<v Speaker 2>going to put try to put restrictions on who can

0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:24.640
<v Speaker 2>participate in community level sports?

0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:25.440
<v Speaker 1>Right?

0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:30.320
<v Speaker 2>Like It's it's a really it's just it's a really

0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.720
<v Speaker 2>really tough conversation when you think about how broad these

0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:36.000
<v Speaker 2>laws already are and how broad they could go, and

0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:39.639
<v Speaker 2>the desire for what people who are in favor of

0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:44.600
<v Speaker 2>restrictive policy, their desires to have an even broader impact.

0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:52.159
<v Speaker 1>Too fine. Two final questions part for you, One is

0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:57.440
<v Speaker 1>who did you write Sarah play for and why did

0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:00.280
<v Speaker 1>you think it was so important in this particular their

0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.040
<v Speaker 1>time to have it.

0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:09.800
<v Speaker 2>I wrote fair Play for everyone who has questions about

0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:13.840
<v Speaker 2>this topic. I think it's been my experience as a

0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:18.280
<v Speaker 2>reporter that there are probably ten percent of people who

0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:21.080
<v Speaker 2>are on either side of the issue who know where

0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:25.280
<v Speaker 2>they stand and are not going to move from those perspectives.

0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:29.320
<v Speaker 2>But there's that really interesting middle eighty percent of folks

0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:33.160
<v Speaker 2>who have questions, and the issue has become so politicized

0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.119
<v Speaker 2>and there's a ton of misinformation that it can be

0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:38.399
<v Speaker 2>really hard to judge the quality of information that you

0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:43.560
<v Speaker 2>have access to, and especially you know, cutting through rhetoric,

0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:46.840
<v Speaker 2>and so I really wanted to write a book that,

0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:51.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, cut through that rhetoric, where you hear perspectives

0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.880
<v Speaker 2>from multiple sides of the issue, from a variety of folks,

0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:58.000
<v Speaker 2>and then of course I share my own perspective, and

0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:02.200
<v Speaker 2>I think it's pretty clear what that is. But you know,

0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.639
<v Speaker 2>for me, it was really important to provide a space

0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.600
<v Speaker 2>where folks could ask the questions that they wanted to

0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:13.800
<v Speaker 2>ask and learn about the topic at hand, separate from

0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:16.280
<v Speaker 2>all of the rhetoric and the misinformation that's out there.

0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.480
<v Speaker 2>And I thought it was important because you know, when

0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:22.800
<v Speaker 2>I originally pitched this book, I thought it was just

0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:24.720
<v Speaker 2>going to be kind of an exploration of like really

0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:28.080
<v Speaker 2>fun stories and you know, the stories of trans kids

0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:29.960
<v Speaker 2>around the country who were playing sports, and then we

0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:31.879
<v Speaker 2>ended up in a news event and so that was

0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:35.040
<v Speaker 2>a little bit different. But to me, it spoke to

0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.440
<v Speaker 2>the urgency of so many of these questions that folks

0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:41.200
<v Speaker 2>don't know where to turn, and they're you know, desperately

0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:43.840
<v Speaker 2>looking for answers, and I hope my book is able

0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:46.000
<v Speaker 2>to provide a starting point for many of them.

0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:50.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that. I mean one, you know, I

0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:56.040
<v Speaker 1>appreciate you digging into a topic that has just become

0:22:56.160 --> 0:23:00.720
<v Speaker 1>so divisive. And again, I'll circle back to work I started.

0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:04.159
<v Speaker 1>Sports is supposed to be, again, that thing that brings

0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:07.640
<v Speaker 1>people together, that is enjoyable, that teaches so many fundamental

0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:11.679
<v Speaker 1>skills about life, and I think to rob any child

0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:16.720
<v Speaker 1>of the ability to do that is cruel and so

0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:19.919
<v Speaker 1>we must, you know, like as times change. I just

0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:25.399
<v Speaker 1>think that it is really important to think expansively, you know,

0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:29.399
<v Speaker 1>as to what is really being harmed right and what

0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:32.280
<v Speaker 1>stakes are we to you, to use your word, what

0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:36.080
<v Speaker 1>stakes are we really talking about here? And I find

0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:39.520
<v Speaker 1>that the right has just been able to create this

0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:45.040
<v Speaker 1>you know monster, this boogeyman and you know, and just

0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:47.520
<v Speaker 1>run wild with it. And I think that your book

0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:54.000
<v Speaker 1>goes a long way to try and claw back the

0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:55.960
<v Speaker 1>lies and kind of open people's eyes.

0:23:57.000 --> 0:24:00.720
<v Speaker 2>Oh well, thank you. I really appreciate that. You know,

0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:04.560
<v Speaker 2>I shared that perspective around sports and they should bring

0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.159
<v Speaker 2>people together and they should be fun, you know, Like

0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:10.040
<v Speaker 2>my favorite, one of my favorite movies growing up was

0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:13.439
<v Speaker 2>The Mighty Ducks. I love the Mighty Ducks, and Gordon

0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:17.440
<v Speaker 2>Bombay was always like games should be fun, and that's

0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:20.199
<v Speaker 2>how I feel about sports, Like they are games, and

0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:23.720
<v Speaker 2>there's a time and a place where winning matters, right Like,

0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:25.479
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to try and minimize that. Like I

0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:27.879
<v Speaker 2>remember playing for a championship when I was in high school,

0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:33.960
<v Speaker 2>Like all of that stuff also matters. But I'm not

0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:36.720
<v Speaker 2>sure it should be the only conversation, and it seems

0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:39.000
<v Speaker 2>to be the only conversation right now.

0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:44.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, folks, the book is fair Play, How Sports

0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:48.040
<v Speaker 1>Shape the Gender Debates by Katie Barnes. Katie, thank you

0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:51.040
<v Speaker 1>so much for making the time to join me on

0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:54.200
<v Speaker 1>wok app. Really appreciate you and appreciate your work.

0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:58.200
<v Speaker 2>Awesome. Thanks for having me right back catcha.

0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:05.000
<v Speaker 1>That is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke

0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:08.800
<v Speaker 1>af AS always, power to the people and to all

0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:12.840
<v Speaker 1>the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.