Speaker 1: Good morning, Keeps, and welcome to look f Daily with
Speaker 1: Meet Your Girl Daniel Moody recording pre recording from the
Speaker 1: Long Island Bunker, Folks, I'm very excited to bring you
Speaker 1: a conversation this morning with a really thoughtful author and journalist,
Speaker 1: Katie Barnes. Katie is an award winning journalist and writer
Speaker 1: at ESPN covering the intersections of sports and gender. Their
Speaker 1: upcoming book, fair Play, How Sports Shape the Gender Debate
Speaker 1: will be released mid next month. And Katie and I
Speaker 1: get into a conversation largely around how women have been
Speaker 1: treated in sports, and then move into a conversation about
Speaker 1: the demonization of non binary and transgender athletes. And it
Speaker 1: is a really good and thoughtful conversation because, look, I
Speaker 1: am not somebody that is saying that there aren't issues
Speaker 1: to be concerned with, right with regard to expanding who
Speaker 1: plays sports and how they play sports and the competitive nature,
Speaker 1: but particularly for those that are in elite sports is
Speaker 1: very different. Right then we're talking about denying a trans
Speaker 1: girl or a trans boy access to being able to
Speaker 1: find camaraderie and community with their classmates. Very different when
Speaker 1: we're talking about a D one level athlete that is
Speaker 1: aspiring to be a professional athlete, and one where we're
Speaker 1: talking about allowing kids to be kids and be able
Speaker 1: to play and developed skills, social skills that sports really
Speaker 1: do help you develop, right, And an understanding of team
Speaker 1: and individual and all of these things that you learn.
Speaker 1: And you know, and I think back to when I
Speaker 1: was growing up and running track and running cross country
Speaker 1: and what I learned about being a leader and a teammate,
Speaker 1: what I learned about discipline and dedication and focus, And
Speaker 1: shouldn't we want write all kids to experience that? Then
Speaker 1: you know, you watch recently the Women's World Cup and
Speaker 1: you see what happened with regard to the amount of
Speaker 1: people that tuned in the largest audiences that they've ever seen.
Speaker 1: You also see the treatment of one of the winning team,
Speaker 1: Spain's players being kissed on the mouth, right, and you're
Speaker 1: just like, would this happen any other place? No, So
Speaker 1: there are so many conversations to be had about what
Speaker 1: it means to respect people, what it means to expand
Speaker 1: our thinking. Just because things have been one way doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that it stays that way. That's the beauty of progress,
Speaker 1: that's the beauty of change, and It's the one thing
Speaker 1: that you can actually count on is that things will
Speaker 1: change right, and how we change with them will be
Speaker 1: the differentiator between the experience being good right and one
Speaker 1: that you can learn from and one being terrible and
Speaker 1: feeling like you're being pushed in a different direction. And
Speaker 1: so the conversation that I get into today with Katie
Speaker 1: Barnes is really good, and I would love to hear
Speaker 1: from all of you about how you think about gender
Speaker 1: and sports and the intersections and the conversations that have
Speaker 1: come up. Whether it be about equal pay, equal coverage
Speaker 1: for professional app whether it be about trans kids being
Speaker 1: allowed or disallowed in sports. What are your feelings about
Speaker 1: that intersection of gender and sports. That conversation with Katie
Speaker 1: Barnes is coming up next, folks. I am very excited
Speaker 1: to welcome to ook F Daily Katie Barnes, who is
Speaker 1: the author of the book fair Play, How Sports Shape
Speaker 1: the Gender Debates. And Katie, I want to start off
Speaker 1: with saying, let me just put it out there. You know,
Speaker 1: I played, and I guess I didn't play. You don't
Speaker 1: play a running sport. I ran track. I ran you know,
Speaker 1: I ran track, I ran cross country. You know loved
Speaker 1: participating in sports when I was growing up, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was often you know, I am of generation where
Speaker 1: it was the thing that you put your kids in
Speaker 1: to like build up their self esteem and to build up,
Speaker 1: you know, their ability to connect with one another, right,
Speaker 1: to build up their coping skills, right, and empathy and
Speaker 1: all of these different things. I find sports in a
Speaker 1: lot of ways to be invaluable. And you know what
Speaker 1: we've seen, though, I would say, particularly, and you tell me,
Speaker 1: as you have studied this and you've written about this
Speaker 1: and interviewed folks, is that over the last maybe ten
Speaker 1: to fifteen years, there has really been a real direct
Speaker 1: attack by conservatives to one redefined and solidify the gender
Speaker 1: binary right, to make it certain that only some type
Speaker 1: of kids get to participate and that everyone else is
Speaker 1: left out gender queer, non binary, trans youth and not
Speaker 1: only left out, but really marginalized, right, really made to
Speaker 1: carry the burden of their community and be signaled out.
Speaker 1: Like there was a story, a horrific story a young
Speaker 1: girl I think I was throwing shot put a couple
Speaker 1: of months ago, and an onlooker started screaming, she's not
Speaker 1: a girl, She's not a girl. And her parent like
Speaker 1: totally was just like, what is happening? So I just
Speaker 1: want to get your feeling on kind of where we
Speaker 1: have gone from sports being the thing that brought people
Speaker 1: together to it now being one of the flat the
Speaker 1: biggest flash points of the conservative rights culture war.
Speaker 2: Yeah, unpack, That's why it was like, let me write
Speaker 2: an entire book about it. So I think the biggest
Speaker 2: thing is actually I think we used to talked about
Speaker 2: how it's been last ten to fifteen years. It's actually
Speaker 2: been much quicker than that. It's been like maybe five
Speaker 2: years from a real concerted effort three years. I mean,
Speaker 2: the first bill that was enacted into law that really
Speaker 2: restricted transgender girls' ability to participate in girls' sports didn't
Speaker 2: pass until Idaho did it in twenty twenty. So this
Speaker 2: is really only the last few years that we've seen
Speaker 2: this grow into being such such a large flashpoint that
Speaker 2: it's receiving a tremendous amount of legislative attention. There are
Speaker 2: lots of points of cultural difference that don't receive legislative attention,
Speaker 2: but this is one that really has and it's only
Speaker 2: been a few years. And I think one of the
Speaker 2: reasons why this has happened. Is really to your point
Speaker 2: about sports being the thing that everybody kind of put
Speaker 2: their kids into, is that it's of great cultural import
Speaker 2: for us as a society. People have feelings about sports,
Speaker 2: right like, whether we're talking about their own like your
Speaker 2: own you know activity, you know, I can still talk
Speaker 2: about games that I played in high school, right like,
Speaker 2: you have your own individual experience, but then you also
Speaker 2: have fandom, you have hopes, you have dreams. That people
Speaker 2: have a real emotional tie to their sporting experiences, whether
Speaker 2: that be as a participant from an athlete perspective or
Speaker 2: as a spectator and a fan. And then I think
Speaker 2: because sports, the way that we are globally organized from
Speaker 2: a sporting perspective is in a gender binary. And there
Speaker 2: are many reasons for that. And I don't necessarily think
Speaker 2: that that is a bad thing when we talk about
Speaker 2: elite sports, but that is the truth of it. And
Speaker 2: so if you're trying to reinforce a gender binary, right
Speaker 2: then sports gives you a really good opportunity to do so.
Speaker 2: And it preys upon all of our cultural baggage around
Speaker 2: sports and around gender in terms of assumptions that we make,
Speaker 2: feelings that we have all of that is wrapped up
Speaker 2: in you know, our sporting experiences, and I think it's
Speaker 2: just playing out in a very you know, tense national
Speaker 2: drama as it were.
Speaker 1: When you say just now that like when you're talking
Speaker 1: about elite sports, you're not so concerned necessarily like with
Speaker 1: the with the gender breakdown. Can you can you speak
Speaker 1: more to that? Because I've had as a as a
Speaker 1: queer woman, I've had so many debates about how sport,
Speaker 1: how how who should be allowed in and who shouldn't
Speaker 1: be allowed in And a a trans woman that is
Speaker 1: a swimmer shouldn't be able to swim against a field
Speaker 1: of CIS women and then like sweep all of the
Speaker 1: all of the metals because of their their different hormone
Speaker 1: levels and ability and wingspan and all of these things.
Speaker 1: So talk to me about what you just said, because
Speaker 1: I want to dig it, because I get it. I
Speaker 1: have gotten into this conversation, I like to say, you know,
Speaker 1: conversation it ended up in a fight. But I got
Speaker 1: into a conversation and ended up in an argument about
Speaker 1: that very fat and these were other queer people, mind you,
Speaker 1: that I was having this conversation with. So was not
Speaker 1: sitting around with like a bunch of you know, like
Speaker 1: straight conservatives.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I hear that. I think so for me,
Speaker 2: it's multi layered. And the first is that they're from
Speaker 2: a data perspective. There are some uncomfortable truths when we
Speaker 2: look at individual sports. So thinking about swimming, track and field,
Speaker 2: you know, powerlifting, I just to sort of name a few,
Speaker 2: So those sports that are rooted in strength, speed and
Speaker 2: power and are from an individual competitive standpoint, there's just
Speaker 2: a reality that from a sex separation standpoint, there's a
Speaker 2: reason that we do that. Like and I give this
Speaker 2: example in fair Play, where you know Shakari Richardson when
Speaker 2: she ran a ten point seven to two in the
Speaker 2: women's hundred meter, it was like the sixth fastest time
Speaker 2: ever at that moment for women. And you know the
Speaker 2: kid who won the Connecticut State Open on the boys
Speaker 2: side in the one hundred meter that year, Connecticut's a
Speaker 2: small state, did so with a ten point six y nine, right,
Speaker 2: Like that that's just a those are numbers, Like, that's
Speaker 2: just a truth. And so when it comes to think
Speaker 2: reimagining what's wars looks like, which I think there are
Speaker 2: a lot of people who want to do that. When
Speaker 2: it comes to sports like track and swimming and powerlifting,
Speaker 2: it's really hard to do without essentially removing women from
Speaker 2: being able to hold world records and win gold medals
Speaker 2: that are of equal import as what the men are
Speaker 2: able to do. So that's why I say that from
Speaker 2: a leaf perspective, where from a sex separation standpoint, like
Speaker 2: I don't really have an issue with it when it
Speaker 2: comes to Olympic level competition because I want women to
Speaker 2: hold world records and the data would suggest that they
Speaker 2: would not be able to if we, you know, organize
Speaker 2: sport by heighten for example. But similarly, right like I
Speaker 2: also from a capitalistic standpoint, don't trust capitalism to not
Speaker 2: function in a sexist manner when it comes to prioritizing
Speaker 2: girls and women. From a like, you know, from a
Speaker 2: resource and opportunity standpoint, like, women in the United States
Speaker 2: are entitled to equal access to sports under the law,
Speaker 2: and that is not happening whether we're talking about the
Speaker 2: high school level or the college level. And so I
Speaker 2: have a hard time believing that if we got rid
Speaker 2: of gender categories in different ways that women would be
Speaker 2: would be on the receiving end of resource investment. Even
Speaker 2: without such protections. So I have those feelings too, But
Speaker 2: then I think into like the real heart of your
Speaker 2: question around having these conversations from an elite level standpoint,
Speaker 2: Our elite athletes are subject to an intense level of scrutiny,
Speaker 2: whether you believe that that is okay or not. So
Speaker 2: we test their urine, for example, to make sure that
Speaker 2: they're not doping. We know the wing span of Michael Phelps, right,
Speaker 2: We know the wing span of these athletes. Like we
Speaker 2: talk about bone length and density and VO two max
Speaker 2: and there are all kinds of physical, logical and metabolic
Speaker 2: indicators that we discuss when it comes to our olympians
Speaker 2: because those are the differentiators. And so there's a discussion
Speaker 2: of bodies when it comes to our elite athletes that
Speaker 2: regardless of your level of comfort with such a thing,
Speaker 2: it happens, and that's not I would think that that
Speaker 2: would be very strange if we were talking about our
Speaker 2: you know, third grade soccer team in the same way, right, Like,
Speaker 2: the stakes are different and the scrutiny mirrors that. And
Speaker 2: so when we're having those discussions about restrictions and what's
Speaker 2: appropriate and what isn't appropriate, and we're having that at
Speaker 2: an elite level, it's a fundamentally different conversation. But what
Speaker 2: I have found in my reporting is that they're not
Speaker 2: treated as fundamentally different conversations. So a discussion about what
Speaker 2: policy regulation should look like when it comes to Olympic
Speaker 2: level swimming suddenly becomes a discussion irrelevant discussion in what
Speaker 2: laws should be passed to regulate elementary school sports. And
Speaker 2: from a stakes perspective, those two are not the same.
Speaker 2: So I think, got it. I kind of answer your question,
Speaker 2: But that's generally those are my feelings about that.
Speaker 1: No, but I think that you're right to frame it
Speaker 1: in terms of the stakes. Right when you're talking about
Speaker 1: Olympic you know, competition that the stakes and the representation,
Speaker 1: the monetary gain, all of those things they matter on
Speaker 1: a very big level. Right when we're talking about I
Speaker 1: don't know, fifth graders running track, like, is this really
Speaker 1: a conversation that we need to be having inside of
Speaker 1: our school systems? Like should should? I guess the question
Speaker 1: that I have for you is that when it pertains
Speaker 1: to young people, should it be that unless you're at
Speaker 1: let's say, the elite gymnastics training camp that your parents
Speaker 1: send the Simon Biles and the Gabby Douglasses and those
Speaker 1: people too, because you show exceptional merit, you know, and
Speaker 1: scholar in this in this sport. If you're if it's
Speaker 1: just a bunch of kids that like are playing and
Speaker 1: learning about competition and their bodies and themselves, like, should
Speaker 1: we be in this legislative political space around it? And
Speaker 1: or should we and and should we just say exactly
Speaker 1: what you said, like the stakes are not really that high.
Speaker 1: It's so essentially it's not that serious.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm inclined to say it's not that serious,
Speaker 2: But what I will say is that I think in general,
Speaker 2: this conversation has gotten so distorted. That's what I mean
Speaker 2: by that is we're having all of these different conversations
Speaker 2: about sports and policy and law at the same time,
Speaker 2: and it's really hard to delineate what conversation we're having.
Speaker 2: So for example, you know, when Leah Thomas was swimming
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two and was really,
Speaker 2: you know, being very successful during that swim season. She
Speaker 2: was competing in Division one sports, and yet I distinctly
Speaker 2: remember watching a hearing in my home state of Indiana
Speaker 2: as they were considering passing a restrictive law, which ultimately
Speaker 2: was passed, you know, and that law was targeting specifically
Speaker 2: high school age students and younger, and yet Leah Thomas
Speaker 2: was invoked as the reason for why that needed to happen.
Speaker 2: And from my perspective as a journalist and someone who's
Speaker 2: knowledge about the topic, I'm like, well, wait, Like we
Speaker 2: can talk about Leah Thomas, but that doesn't have anything
Speaker 2: to do with why we're restricting participation for fifth, sixth, seventh,
Speaker 2: eighth graders or you know, non elite high school competition.
Speaker 2: And so I think a lot of folks don't necessarily
Speaker 2: realize the breadth of the legislation has passed, and that
Speaker 2: it's not just talking about high school, which is messy
Speaker 2: from a puberty perspective, it's messy in general or from
Speaker 2: an elite college standpoint, right, Like, you know, it's not
Speaker 2: just focusing on that. A lot of these laws go
Speaker 2: all the way down to elementary school. Sometimes they start
Speaker 2: at fifth or sixth grade. Some of them cover all
Speaker 2: elementary school. And they don't just affect competitive college sports.
Speaker 2: They also affect club level college sports, which is essentially
Speaker 2: pay to play in college, and even intramurals, which will
Speaker 2: affect you know, sometimes with intermural sports at large public universities,
Speaker 2: those aren't just open to students, and again that's also
Speaker 2: paid to participate. You there's usually a fee. They're also
Speaker 2: open to they can be open to faculty and staff
Speaker 2: and sometimes community members depending on the school. So those
Speaker 2: are wide reaching laws that have you know, influenced far
Speaker 2: beyond what we would consider to be compe sport, which
Speaker 2: when we think about stakes in terms of what is
Speaker 2: what is relevant when it comes to how sports should
Speaker 2: be regulated. I think that's far outside the bounds of
Speaker 2: what most people would consider to be reasonable. But a
Speaker 2: lot of folks don't know that that's what these laws do,
Speaker 2: and so, you know, for me, it was always it's
Speaker 2: really important to really put a fine, you know, fine
Speaker 2: point on what it is that is happening when it
Speaker 2: comes to the passage of these laws and how broad
Speaker 2: they are. Well also acknowledging that, sure, we can have
Speaker 2: different conversations about what appropriate policy is, but that's not
Speaker 2: the conversation that is happening legislatively in the United States.
Speaker 2: It's a very broad attack specifically on transgender youth, and
Speaker 2: I think that tends to surprise folks because they think
Speaker 2: that it's you know that it's a discussion about Division
Speaker 2: one sports, and well that's reasonable. It's like, no, it
Speaker 2: also is a discussion about fifth graders and fourth graders
Speaker 2: and you know, intramural level sports. And it begs the
Speaker 2: question of, you know, when we think about the typical
Speaker 2: sporting experience for the overhalling majority of US, it's co
Speaker 2: ed and recreational basically, right, And so at what point
Speaker 2: then are we going to start having discussions about, well,
Speaker 2: are we gonna see who plays pick up at the Why? Like,
Speaker 2: are we going to put restrictions on that? Are we
Speaker 2: going to put try to put restrictions on who can
Speaker 2: participate in community level sports?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Like It's it's a really it's just it's a really
Speaker 2: really tough conversation when you think about how broad these
Speaker 2: laws already are and how broad they could go, and
Speaker 2: the desire for what people who are in favor of
Speaker 2: restrictive policy, their desires to have an even broader impact.
Speaker 1: Too fine. Two final questions part for you, One is
Speaker 1: who did you write Sarah play for and why did
Speaker 1: you think it was so important in this particular their
Speaker 1: time to have it.
Speaker 2: I wrote fair Play for everyone who has questions about
Speaker 2: this topic. I think it's been my experience as a
Speaker 2: reporter that there are probably ten percent of people who
Speaker 2: are on either side of the issue who know where
Speaker 2: they stand and are not going to move from those perspectives.
Speaker 2: But there's that really interesting middle eighty percent of folks
Speaker 2: who have questions, and the issue has become so politicized
Speaker 2: and there's a ton of misinformation that it can be
Speaker 2: really hard to judge the quality of information that you
Speaker 2: have access to, and especially you know, cutting through rhetoric,
Speaker 2: and so I really wanted to write a book that,
Speaker 2: you know, cut through that rhetoric, where you hear perspectives
Speaker 2: from multiple sides of the issue, from a variety of folks,
Speaker 2: and then of course I share my own perspective, and
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty clear what that is. But you know,
Speaker 2: for me, it was really important to provide a space
Speaker 2: where folks could ask the questions that they wanted to
Speaker 2: ask and learn about the topic at hand, separate from
Speaker 2: all of the rhetoric and the misinformation that's out there.
Speaker 2: And I thought it was important because you know, when
Speaker 2: I originally pitched this book, I thought it was just
Speaker 2: going to be kind of an exploration of like really
Speaker 2: fun stories and you know, the stories of trans kids
Speaker 2: around the country who were playing sports, and then we
Speaker 2: ended up in a news event and so that was
Speaker 2: a little bit different. But to me, it spoke to
Speaker 2: the urgency of so many of these questions that folks
Speaker 2: don't know where to turn, and they're you know, desperately
Speaker 2: looking for answers, and I hope my book is able
Speaker 2: to provide a starting point for many of them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that. I mean one, you know, I
Speaker 1: appreciate you digging into a topic that has just become
Speaker 1: so divisive. And again, I'll circle back to work I started.
Speaker 1: Sports is supposed to be, again, that thing that brings
Speaker 1: people together, that is enjoyable, that teaches so many fundamental
Speaker 1: skills about life, and I think to rob any child
Speaker 1: of the ability to do that is cruel and so
Speaker 1: we must, you know, like as times change. I just
Speaker 1: think that it is really important to think expansively, you know,
Speaker 1: as to what is really being harmed right and what
Speaker 1: stakes are we to you, to use your word, what
Speaker 1: stakes are we really talking about here? And I find
Speaker 1: that the right has just been able to create this
Speaker 1: you know monster, this boogeyman and you know, and just
Speaker 1: run wild with it. And I think that your book
Speaker 1: goes a long way to try and claw back the
Speaker 1: lies and kind of open people's eyes.
Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you. I really appreciate that. You know,
Speaker 2: I shared that perspective around sports and they should bring
Speaker 2: people together and they should be fun, you know, Like
Speaker 2: my favorite, one of my favorite movies growing up was
Speaker 2: The Mighty Ducks. I love the Mighty Ducks, and Gordon
Speaker 2: Bombay was always like games should be fun, and that's
Speaker 2: how I feel about sports, Like they are games, and
Speaker 2: there's a time and a place where winning matters, right Like,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to try and minimize that. Like I
Speaker 2: remember playing for a championship when I was in high school,
Speaker 2: Like all of that stuff also matters. But I'm not
Speaker 2: sure it should be the only conversation, and it seems
Speaker 2: to be the only conversation right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, folks, the book is fair Play, How Sports
Speaker 1: Shape the Gender Debates by Katie Barnes. Katie, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for making the time to join me on
Speaker 1: wok app. Really appreciate you and appreciate your work.
Speaker 2: Awesome. Thanks for having me right back catcha.
Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke
Speaker 1: af AS always, power to the people and to all
Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.