1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Good morning, Keeps, and welcome to look f Daily with 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: Meet Your Girl Daniel Moody recording pre recording from the 3 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: Long Island Bunker, Folks, I'm very excited to bring you 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: a conversation this morning with a really thoughtful author and journalist, 5 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: Katie Barnes. Katie is an award winning journalist and writer 6 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: at ESPN covering the intersections of sports and gender. Their 7 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: upcoming book, fair Play, How Sports Shape the Gender Debate 8 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: will be released mid next month. And Katie and I 9 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: get into a conversation largely around how women have been 10 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: treated in sports, and then move into a conversation about 11 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: the demonization of non binary and transgender athletes. And it 12 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: is a really good and thoughtful conversation because, look, I 13 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: am not somebody that is saying that there aren't issues 14 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: to be concerned with, right with regard to expanding who 15 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: plays sports and how they play sports and the competitive nature, 16 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: but particularly for those that are in elite sports is 17 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: very different. Right then we're talking about denying a trans 18 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: girl or a trans boy access to being able to 19 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: find camaraderie and community with their classmates. Very different when 20 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about a D one level athlete that is 21 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: aspiring to be a professional athlete, and one where we're 22 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: talking about allowing kids to be kids and be able 23 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: to play and developed skills, social skills that sports really 24 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: do help you develop, right, And an understanding of team 25 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: and individual and all of these things that you learn. 26 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: And you know, and I think back to when I 27 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: was growing up and running track and running cross country 28 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: and what I learned about being a leader and a teammate, 29 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: what I learned about discipline and dedication and focus, And 30 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: shouldn't we want write all kids to experience that? Then 31 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: you know, you watch recently the Women's World Cup and 32 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 1: you see what happened with regard to the amount of 33 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: people that tuned in the largest audiences that they've ever seen. 34 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: You also see the treatment of one of the winning team, 35 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: Spain's players being kissed on the mouth, right, and you're 36 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: just like, would this happen any other place? No, So 37 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: there are so many conversations to be had about what 38 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: it means to respect people, what it means to expand 39 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: our thinking. Just because things have been one way doesn't 40 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: mean that it stays that way. That's the beauty of progress, 41 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: that's the beauty of change, and It's the one thing 42 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: that you can actually count on is that things will 43 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: change right, and how we change with them will be 44 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: the differentiator between the experience being good right and one 45 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: that you can learn from and one being terrible and 46 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: feeling like you're being pushed in a different direction. And 47 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: so the conversation that I get into today with Katie 48 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: Barnes is really good, and I would love to hear 49 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: from all of you about how you think about gender 50 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: and sports and the intersections and the conversations that have 51 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: come up. Whether it be about equal pay, equal coverage 52 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: for professional app whether it be about trans kids being 53 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: allowed or disallowed in sports. What are your feelings about 54 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: that intersection of gender and sports. That conversation with Katie 55 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: Barnes is coming up next, folks. I am very excited 56 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: to welcome to ook F Daily Katie Barnes, who is 57 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: the author of the book fair Play, How Sports Shape 58 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: the Gender Debates. And Katie, I want to start off 59 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: with saying, let me just put it out there. You know, 60 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: I played, and I guess I didn't play. You don't 61 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: play a running sport. I ran track. I ran you know, 62 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: I ran track, I ran cross country. You know loved 63 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: participating in sports when I was growing up, and you know, 64 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: it was often you know, I am of generation where 65 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: it was the thing that you put your kids in 66 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: to like build up their self esteem and to build up, 67 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, their ability to connect with one another, right, 68 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: to build up their coping skills, right, and empathy and 69 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: all of these different things. I find sports in a 70 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: lot of ways to be invaluable. And you know what 71 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: we've seen, though, I would say, particularly, and you tell me, 72 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: as you have studied this and you've written about this 73 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: and interviewed folks, is that over the last maybe ten 74 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: to fifteen years, there has really been a real direct 75 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: attack by conservatives to one redefined and solidify the gender 76 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:55,119 Speaker 1: binary right, to make it certain that only some type 77 00:05:55,120 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: of kids get to participate and that everyone else is 78 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: left out gender queer, non binary, trans youth and not 79 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: only left out, but really marginalized, right, really made to 80 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: carry the burden of their community and be signaled out. 81 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: Like there was a story, a horrific story a young 82 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: girl I think I was throwing shot put a couple 83 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: of months ago, and an onlooker started screaming, she's not 84 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: a girl, She's not a girl. And her parent like 85 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: totally was just like, what is happening? So I just 86 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: want to get your feeling on kind of where we 87 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: have gone from sports being the thing that brought people 88 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: together to it now being one of the flat the 89 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: biggest flash points of the conservative rights culture war. 90 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, unpack, That's why it was like, let me write 91 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: an entire book about it. So I think the biggest 92 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: thing is actually I think we used to talked about 93 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: how it's been last ten to fifteen years. It's actually 94 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: been much quicker than that. It's been like maybe five 95 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 2: years from a real concerted effort three years. I mean, 96 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: the first bill that was enacted into law that really 97 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 2: restricted transgender girls' ability to participate in girls' sports didn't 98 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: pass until Idaho did it in twenty twenty. So this 99 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 2: is really only the last few years that we've seen 100 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: this grow into being such such a large flashpoint that 101 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: it's receiving a tremendous amount of legislative attention. There are 102 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: lots of points of cultural difference that don't receive legislative attention, 103 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: but this is one that really has and it's only 104 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: been a few years. And I think one of the 105 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: reasons why this has happened. Is really to your point 106 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: about sports being the thing that everybody kind of put 107 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: their kids into, is that it's of great cultural import 108 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: for us as a society. People have feelings about sports, 109 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: right like, whether we're talking about their own like your 110 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 2: own you know activity, you know, I can still talk 111 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: about games that I played in high school, right like, 112 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: you have your own individual experience, but then you also 113 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: have fandom, you have hopes, you have dreams. That people 114 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: have a real emotional tie to their sporting experiences, whether 115 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 2: that be as a participant from an athlete perspective or 116 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 2: as a spectator and a fan. And then I think 117 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: because sports, the way that we are globally organized from 118 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 2: a sporting perspective is in a gender binary. And there 119 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 2: are many reasons for that. And I don't necessarily think 120 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 2: that that is a bad thing when we talk about 121 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 2: elite sports, but that is the truth of it. And 122 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 2: so if you're trying to reinforce a gender binary, right 123 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: then sports gives you a really good opportunity to do so. 124 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: And it preys upon all of our cultural baggage around 125 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 2: sports and around gender in terms of assumptions that we make, 126 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 2: feelings that we have all of that is wrapped up 127 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: in you know, our sporting experiences, and I think it's 128 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: just playing out in a very you know, tense national 129 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 2: drama as it were. 130 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: When you say just now that like when you're talking 131 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: about elite sports, you're not so concerned necessarily like with 132 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: the with the gender breakdown. Can you can you speak 133 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: more to that? Because I've had as a as a 134 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: queer woman, I've had so many debates about how sport, 135 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: how how who should be allowed in and who shouldn't 136 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: be allowed in And a a trans woman that is 137 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: a swimmer shouldn't be able to swim against a field 138 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: of CIS women and then like sweep all of the 139 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: all of the metals because of their their different hormone 140 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: levels and ability and wingspan and all of these things. 141 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: So talk to me about what you just said, because 142 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: I want to dig it, because I get it. I 143 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: have gotten into this conversation, I like to say, you know, 144 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: conversation it ended up in a fight. But I got 145 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: into a conversation and ended up in an argument about 146 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: that very fat and these were other queer people, mind you, 147 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: that I was having this conversation with. So was not 148 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: sitting around with like a bunch of you know, like 149 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: straight conservatives. 150 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I hear that. I think so for me, 151 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 2: it's multi layered. And the first is that they're from 152 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 2: a data perspective. There are some uncomfortable truths when we 153 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: look at individual sports. So thinking about swimming, track and field, 154 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 2: you know, powerlifting, I just to sort of name a few, 155 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 2: So those sports that are rooted in strength, speed and 156 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: power and are from an individual competitive standpoint, there's just 157 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 2: a reality that from a sex separation standpoint, there's a 158 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: reason that we do that. Like and I give this 159 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: example in fair Play, where you know Shakari Richardson when 160 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 2: she ran a ten point seven to two in the 161 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 2: women's hundred meter, it was like the sixth fastest time 162 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: ever at that moment for women. And you know the 163 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 2: kid who won the Connecticut State Open on the boys 164 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: side in the one hundred meter that year, Connecticut's a 165 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: small state, did so with a ten point six y nine, right, 166 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: Like that that's just a those are numbers, Like, that's 167 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: just a truth. And so when it comes to think 168 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 2: reimagining what's wars looks like, which I think there are 169 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 2: a lot of people who want to do that. When 170 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: it comes to sports like track and swimming and powerlifting, 171 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: it's really hard to do without essentially removing women from 172 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 2: being able to hold world records and win gold medals 173 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 2: that are of equal import as what the men are 174 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: able to do. So that's why I say that from 175 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 2: a leaf perspective, where from a sex separation standpoint, like 176 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 2: I don't really have an issue with it when it 177 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: comes to Olympic level competition because I want women to 178 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: hold world records and the data would suggest that they 179 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 2: would not be able to if we, you know, organize 180 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: sport by heighten for example. But similarly, right like I 181 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: also from a capitalistic standpoint, don't trust capitalism to not 182 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 2: function in a sexist manner when it comes to prioritizing 183 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: girls and women. From a like, you know, from a 184 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: resource and opportunity standpoint, like, women in the United States 185 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 2: are entitled to equal access to sports under the law, 186 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,599 Speaker 2: and that is not happening whether we're talking about the 187 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 2: high school level or the college level. And so I 188 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: have a hard time believing that if we got rid 189 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: of gender categories in different ways that women would be 190 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: would be on the receiving end of resource investment. Even 191 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: without such protections. So I have those feelings too, But 192 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: then I think into like the real heart of your 193 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 2: question around having these conversations from an elite level standpoint, 194 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,359 Speaker 2: Our elite athletes are subject to an intense level of scrutiny, 195 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: whether you believe that that is okay or not. So 196 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 2: we test their urine, for example, to make sure that 197 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: they're not doping. We know the wing span of Michael Phelps, right, 198 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: We know the wing span of these athletes. Like we 199 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: talk about bone length and density and VO two max 200 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 2: and there are all kinds of physical, logical and metabolic 201 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 2: indicators that we discuss when it comes to our olympians 202 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 2: because those are the differentiators. And so there's a discussion 203 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: of bodies when it comes to our elite athletes that 204 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: regardless of your level of comfort with such a thing, 205 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 2: it happens, and that's not I would think that that 206 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: would be very strange if we were talking about our 207 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: you know, third grade soccer team in the same way, right, Like, 208 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 2: the stakes are different and the scrutiny mirrors that. And 209 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: so when we're having those discussions about restrictions and what's 210 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 2: appropriate and what isn't appropriate, and we're having that at 211 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: an elite level, it's a fundamentally different conversation. But what 212 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 2: I have found in my reporting is that they're not 213 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 2: treated as fundamentally different conversations. So a discussion about what 214 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: policy regulation should look like when it comes to Olympic 215 00:14:53,880 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 2: level swimming suddenly becomes a discussion irrelevant discussion in what 216 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 2: laws should be passed to regulate elementary school sports. And 217 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: from a stakes perspective, those two are not the same. 218 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: So I think, got it. I kind of answer your question, 219 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: But that's generally those are my feelings about that. 220 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: No, but I think that you're right to frame it 221 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: in terms of the stakes. Right when you're talking about 222 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: Olympic you know, competition that the stakes and the representation, 223 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: the monetary gain, all of those things they matter on 224 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: a very big level. Right when we're talking about I 225 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: don't know, fifth graders running track, like, is this really 226 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: a conversation that we need to be having inside of 227 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: our school systems? Like should should? I guess the question 228 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: that I have for you is that when it pertains 229 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: to young people, should it be that unless you're at 230 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: let's say, the elite gymnastics training camp that your parents 231 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: send the Simon Biles and the Gabby Douglasses and those 232 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: people too, because you show exceptional merit, you know, and 233 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: scholar in this in this sport. If you're if it's 234 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: just a bunch of kids that like are playing and 235 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: learning about competition and their bodies and themselves, like, should 236 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: we be in this legislative political space around it? And 237 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: or should we and and should we just say exactly 238 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: what you said, like the stakes are not really that high. 239 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,239 Speaker 1: It's so essentially it's not that serious. 240 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm inclined to say it's not that serious, 241 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 2: But what I will say is that I think in general, 242 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 2: this conversation has gotten so distorted. That's what I mean 243 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: by that is we're having all of these different conversations 244 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 2: about sports and policy and law at the same time, 245 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: and it's really hard to delineate what conversation we're having. 246 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: So for example, you know, when Leah Thomas was swimming 247 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two and was really, 248 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 2: you know, being very successful during that swim season. She 249 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 2: was competing in Division one sports, and yet I distinctly 250 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 2: remember watching a hearing in my home state of Indiana 251 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 2: as they were considering passing a restrictive law, which ultimately 252 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: was passed, you know, and that law was targeting specifically 253 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: high school age students and younger, and yet Leah Thomas 254 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: was invoked as the reason for why that needed to happen. 255 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 2: And from my perspective as a journalist and someone who's 256 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: knowledge about the topic, I'm like, well, wait, Like we 257 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 2: can talk about Leah Thomas, but that doesn't have anything 258 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 2: to do with why we're restricting participation for fifth, sixth, seventh, 259 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 2: eighth graders or you know, non elite high school competition. 260 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 2: And so I think a lot of folks don't necessarily 261 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: realize the breadth of the legislation has passed, and that 262 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 2: it's not just talking about high school, which is messy 263 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: from a puberty perspective, it's messy in general or from 264 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,719 Speaker 2: an elite college standpoint, right, Like, you know, it's not 265 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 2: just focusing on that. A lot of these laws go 266 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 2: all the way down to elementary school. Sometimes they start 267 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 2: at fifth or sixth grade. Some of them cover all 268 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 2: elementary school. And they don't just affect competitive college sports. 269 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 2: They also affect club level college sports, which is essentially 270 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 2: pay to play in college, and even intramurals, which will 271 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: affect you know, sometimes with intermural sports at large public universities, 272 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: those aren't just open to students, and again that's also 273 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 2: paid to participate. You there's usually a fee. They're also 274 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: open to they can be open to faculty and staff 275 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 2: and sometimes community members depending on the school. So those 276 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 2: are wide reaching laws that have you know, influenced far 277 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: beyond what we would consider to be compe sport, which 278 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 2: when we think about stakes in terms of what is 279 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 2: what is relevant when it comes to how sports should 280 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 2: be regulated. I think that's far outside the bounds of 281 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: what most people would consider to be reasonable. But a 282 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 2: lot of folks don't know that that's what these laws do, 283 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: and so, you know, for me, it was always it's 284 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 2: really important to really put a fine, you know, fine 285 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 2: point on what it is that is happening when it 286 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 2: comes to the passage of these laws and how broad 287 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 2: they are. Well also acknowledging that, sure, we can have 288 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: different conversations about what appropriate policy is, but that's not 289 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 2: the conversation that is happening legislatively in the United States. 290 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: It's a very broad attack specifically on transgender youth, and 291 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: I think that tends to surprise folks because they think 292 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,959 Speaker 2: that it's you know that it's a discussion about Division 293 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 2: one sports, and well that's reasonable. It's like, no, it 294 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: also is a discussion about fifth graders and fourth graders 295 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 2: and you know, intramural level sports. And it begs the 296 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: question of, you know, when we think about the typical 297 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 2: sporting experience for the overhalling majority of US, it's co 298 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: ed and recreational basically, right, And so at what point 299 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: then are we going to start having discussions about, well, 300 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 2: are we gonna see who plays pick up at the Why? Like, 301 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: are we going to put restrictions on that? Are we 302 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 2: going to put try to put restrictions on who can 303 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 2: participate in community level sports? 304 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: Right? 305 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: Like It's it's a really it's just it's a really 306 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 2: really tough conversation when you think about how broad these 307 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 2: laws already are and how broad they could go, and 308 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 2: the desire for what people who are in favor of 309 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: restrictive policy, their desires to have an even broader impact. 310 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: Too fine. Two final questions part for you, One is 311 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: who did you write Sarah play for and why did 312 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: you think it was so important in this particular their 313 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: time to have it. 314 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: I wrote fair Play for everyone who has questions about 315 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 2: this topic. I think it's been my experience as a 316 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: reporter that there are probably ten percent of people who 317 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: are on either side of the issue who know where 318 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 2: they stand and are not going to move from those perspectives. 319 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: But there's that really interesting middle eighty percent of folks 320 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 2: who have questions, and the issue has become so politicized 321 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 2: and there's a ton of misinformation that it can be 322 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 2: really hard to judge the quality of information that you 323 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 2: have access to, and especially you know, cutting through rhetoric, 324 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 2: and so I really wanted to write a book that, 325 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 2: you know, cut through that rhetoric, where you hear perspectives 326 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 2: from multiple sides of the issue, from a variety of folks, 327 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 2: and then of course I share my own perspective, and 328 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 2: I think it's pretty clear what that is. But you know, 329 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 2: for me, it was really important to provide a space 330 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 2: where folks could ask the questions that they wanted to 331 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 2: ask and learn about the topic at hand, separate from 332 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 2: all of the rhetoric and the misinformation that's out there. 333 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: And I thought it was important because you know, when 334 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 2: I originally pitched this book, I thought it was just 335 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 2: going to be kind of an exploration of like really 336 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: fun stories and you know, the stories of trans kids 337 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: around the country who were playing sports, and then we 338 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: ended up in a news event and so that was 339 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: a little bit different. But to me, it spoke to 340 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 2: the urgency of so many of these questions that folks 341 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 2: don't know where to turn, and they're you know, desperately 342 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 2: looking for answers, and I hope my book is able 343 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 2: to provide a starting point for many of them. 344 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that. I mean one, you know, I 345 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: appreciate you digging into a topic that has just become 346 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: so divisive. And again, I'll circle back to work I started. 347 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: Sports is supposed to be, again, that thing that brings 348 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: people together, that is enjoyable, that teaches so many fundamental 349 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: skills about life, and I think to rob any child 350 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: of the ability to do that is cruel and so 351 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: we must, you know, like as times change. I just 352 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: think that it is really important to think expansively, you know, 353 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: as to what is really being harmed right and what 354 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: stakes are we to you, to use your word, what 355 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: stakes are we really talking about here? And I find 356 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: that the right has just been able to create this 357 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: you know monster, this boogeyman and you know, and just 358 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: run wild with it. And I think that your book 359 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: goes a long way to try and claw back the 360 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: lies and kind of open people's eyes. 361 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you. I really appreciate that. You know, 362 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 2: I shared that perspective around sports and they should bring 363 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 2: people together and they should be fun, you know, Like 364 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 2: my favorite, one of my favorite movies growing up was 365 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 2: The Mighty Ducks. I love the Mighty Ducks, and Gordon 366 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 2: Bombay was always like games should be fun, and that's 367 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 2: how I feel about sports, Like they are games, and 368 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: there's a time and a place where winning matters, right Like, 369 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,479 Speaker 2: I'm not going to try and minimize that. Like I 370 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 2: remember playing for a championship when I was in high school, 371 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 2: Like all of that stuff also matters. But I'm not 372 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 2: sure it should be the only conversation, and it seems 373 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 2: to be the only conversation right now. 374 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, folks, the book is fair Play, How Sports 375 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: Shape the Gender Debates by Katie Barnes. Katie, thank you 376 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: so much for making the time to join me on 377 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: wok app. Really appreciate you and appreciate your work. 378 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 2: Awesome. Thanks for having me right back catcha. 379 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke 380 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: af AS always, power to the people and to all 381 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.