WEBVTT - 55.5 Ava DuVernay: Groundbreaker 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:05.680 Hello, dear listeners. Brian and I are on the road again. 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:09.520 I'm so excited to be on the road again. We're 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.920 in south By Southwest in Austin, Texas, recording some interviews 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:15.520 for the pod, which will be excited to share with 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:17.919 you soon. But in the meantime, we didn't want to 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.680 leave you hanging or pining for us, so we decided 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.000 to dip into our archives and revisit one of our 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:26.480 favorite episodes on the show, and that is our conversation 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:30.840 with filmmaking powerhouse Ava d Verney. So we originally spoke 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:34.080 with Ava last summer while she was editing A Wrinkling Time, 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:37.159 which just hit theaters this month. So for those of 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:39.240 you who might have missed it the first time around, 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:43.800 or who wanted an excuse to revisit Ava's brilliance and eloquence, 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:52.720 this one is for you. Hi Brian, Hi Katie. Well, 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.160 I'm very excited about our podcast today. It's a conversation 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:02.480 with Ava Daverney, who has become so accomplished she's everywhere 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.080 these days. I first met her at the Sundance Film 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.479 Festival a couple of years ago, and she really wasn't 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.119 a household name back then, but I think today she's 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:15.760 become one. Of course, she's done such critically acclaimed documentaries, 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:20.080 like she has a show called Queen Sugar, which has 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:24.800 also gotten a lot of attention, and of course Selma, right, Brian, 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:27.120 I mean, that was an amazing film. If you care 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.840 about the civil rights movement, or Lyndon Johnson or how 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.280 the Voting Rights Act was passed, you have to see 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.600 this movie. It became actually very controversial at the time, 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:39.600 and one of the big controversies around it was why 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.479 Ava was not nominated for Best Director, which we get 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:45.800 into a little bit in this conversation, and of course 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:49.760 that omission really helped fuel the Oscars So White campaign, 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:54.960 which really changed the face literally of the Academy. Anyway, 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.280 we had the privilege of talking to Eva at Disney 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:01.160 Studios where she was in the middle of a deadline 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.560 for her upcoming movie, A Wrinkle in Time, and we 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.520 covered a lot of ground from her relationship with her 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:12.119 frequent collaborator, somebody named um Oprah I think is her name. 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:13.680 You may have heard of her. I think that's how 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:18.600 you pronounce the official Ava diverne Ay Barbie, and how 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:23.400 she went from doing pr and publicity to making movies, 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:28.040 a pretty dramatic career transition. And folks, by the way, 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.840 you know the drill. We left our studio, we ventured 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.919 out into the actual world for this recording, and so 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.000 the audio isn't perfect because we did it in Ava's office, 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:38.799 So we hope you'll forgive us for that. And in 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:42.080 Ava's office where she had very good snacks, we might add, 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:46.000 including those little breadsticks with nutella. She told me to 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.239 help myself. So what can I say? People, I did? 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.160 You taught me the true meaning of asking forgiveness, not 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.520 permission anyway. So here's our conversation with the one and 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:02.079 only Ava Diverney. I kept thinking about the Alicia Key 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:07.120 song This girl is on by Oh my God. Woman. 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:09.720 First of all, thank you for doing our podcast. You're 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:14.639 doing a million things, so you're my girl. People don't 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.160 know we hang out when we're Yeah, exactly, we've partied together. 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.799 That's your part together. Yeah, well, I'm We first met 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.760 at Sundance and we sat across the table from her. 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.320 I think she probably thought I was super weird at 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:34.200 the time. Ava, she was obviously doing great things, but 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:41.240 it was really before a huge development in Ava's career causation. 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:44.760 We don't know very little to do with it. But 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:48.720 I was fascinated then by Ava's backstory, which I want 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:50.680 to get to in a moment, but first we have 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:56.280 to say mossel mozzle, Ava, because you have been nominated 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:01.680 for lots o Emmy right for thirteen, eight Emmys, eight 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:03.600 Emmys for thirteenth. And you know, the great thing about 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:05.920 it is when it happens, it doesn't feel like you 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.920 thought it would. It feels lovely, but like a cherry 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.520 on top because the main thing was making the piece 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.280 and people loving it and responding to it. So when 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:15.960 the nominations came in, I was like, oh wow, this 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.400 is lovely. I was more excited for my editor and 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.280 for my my sound mixer who all got nominated and uh. 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.159 And so it just helps me stay focused because I 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.240 just like telling the stories and I like the people's 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.120 reaction because everyone walks up to me about their teeth, 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:31.479 you know, people walk up, they want to talk about it. 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.440 And so it's been a gift that keeps on giving. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.720 It's it's still though, must be a nice piece of 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.840 validation for you, right, nice, I just didn't doesn't hit 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:42.159 the same as I always dreamed it would. You know, 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.200 you think you're you're making the speech in the mirror 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:46.839 and you it's your brush, is the is the is 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:48.440 the trophy, you know what I mean, And you think 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.080 it's gonna feel a certain way. It's really nice, but 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:53.760 isn't everything that I thought it would be. But it 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:57.080 did feel I think, uh, sort of like a disk. 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.560 When you weren't nominated for Selma for a lot of 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:01.520 other people, well, I never thought I would be nominated. 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.120 I'm on record a long time before the nomination saying 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:06.720 it wouldn't want because I don't know anyone in my 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.880 in my in my branch. It's very much about you know, 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:12.880 I have no connect Cider's Club, Yeah, and I don't. 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:14.520 I don't know them and they don't know me. And 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:16.520 so that's a big part of what that is. It's 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:18.800 just that connection with your peers, and I didn't have 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:20.520 it at that. Hollywood is just like high school. And 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.640 another little bit as a movie goer, I really resented 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:28.400 it even if you didn't. Even if it didn't but 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.160 but no, no, really, if I didn't even know you 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:35.440 and the movie Selma and the fact that um, I 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.880 thought it was a fantastic movie, and I think it 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.400 should have been recognized. But I think this was sort 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:47.000 of on the cusp of people understanding how undiverse the Oscar. 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:49.080 It was. The year before this was the that was 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.400 the year that said all that conversation. It helped to 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.560 spur the Oscar. And I think that that was valid 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.479 that came from the fans and uh and it was 0:05:57.480 --> 0:05:59.520 a valid conversation that needed to happen, not just for 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.520 people of color, but for women, which has become a big, 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.760 big conversation now, so they people think it differently about it, 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:08.360 and so I'm happy that that campaign was effective. Do 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:10.400 you think it drove real change? It did? I mean 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:12.960 it was. It was definitely had fundamental changes within the 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.560 Academy in terms of the ways in which new members 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:18.400 are brought in, in terms of the ways in which 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.159 the conversations that are had around the table. Um. I 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:23.040 know because I've been sitting in them and I can 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:25.039 see how they've changed since I joined the Academy in 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.640 two thousand twelve to now radically different. Isn't it amazing 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:33.280 how when people are made aware of an issue, how 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.960 rapidly in some cases change can happen so fast it 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.400 really can what do you think it were the keys 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.400 to to changing sort of the color if you will, 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.680 at the academy and and and the choices they were making. 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:47.279 I mean, I think it was the uproar and the 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:49.840 outrage and the real urgency that people were feeling at 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:51.760 the time about this is unacceptable. And it's not as 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.159 if the conversation hadn't happened before. But there was something 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.200 that alchemy about, you know what, whatever was going on 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.200 the culture around that time. Black lives matter, Absolutely there 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.480 was there was at the forefront. There was a conversation, 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.280 whether it be people of color or women, that this 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.919 was no longer something that could be set aside. But 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.160 when you're talking about change, you know, we were talking 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.680 about another conversation we had about um about your your 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.520 dock and your dock work. How quickly I even look 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.680 at the trans community, how quickly. I mean, I can 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:23.640 think of three years ago, no one even knew how 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.120 to articulate or what it meant or how or had 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.080 a respect for it being a uh, you know, an 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.600 issue that we all had to embrace or a reality 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:33.960 that we had to embrace or we should embrace. And 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:36.880 now it feels very you could have a conversation with people, 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:38.560 and they may not know everything that they should know, 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.680 but there's at least a base of recognition. And that's 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:43.160 been I mean, what would you say, I'd say to 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:46.560 three years and being conservative, I think you're right, and 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.480 I think that Caitlyn Jenner did a lot to bring 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.000 it out into the forefront and then that provided I 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.880 think a foundation for a conversation to talk about it 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.760 and then actually paid the way for a documentary like 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:02.680 that couldn't have happened, I think in a weird way 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.680 without kids, when kind of making more people understand that 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.880 this was an actual phenomenon and that this was something 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.520 that was affecting a lot of people that was being 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:15.280 kept in the closet. That's a that's a reality for 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.400 a lot of people. And before we go further down 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:19.880 this road, I want to talk a little bit about 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.000 who you are and where you come from. People you 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.640 don't know because you grew up a few miles but 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.240 also a world away from here near Compton, and you've 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.800 talked a lot about this. How how did your childhood 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.840 and background kind of shape the director that you are today. 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:40.320 Had a beautiful childhood, very you know, lovely community, very 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:45.079 tight knit, a gorgeous, loving family. UM. But my childhood 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.360 was set in a community that was, you know, uh, 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.720 kind of besieged by l A p D at that time, 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:56.319 that really used excessive force and instances when it wasn't necessary, 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:00.679 and instances of everyday life the constant surveyor the police 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.040 presence living under that made it so that I'm hyper 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:06.960 aware of issues of criminal justice and and and the 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.320 ways in which law enforcement of really um can kind 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.360 of rule with an iron hand in some places. And 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:14.280 so that that's made its way in my work, from 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:16.440 the early narrative films to The Docks Now to the 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.120 TV show. Uh, It's just something that's a part of 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.600 my DNA, and so that I just want to continue 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:26.080 to talk about. Did you have any firsthand experiences they've 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.400 growing up where you know an image has stuck with 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:32.520 you or an experience has stuck with you. I just 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.200 read a Brian Stevenson Peace and the New York Review 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.040 of Books about he was Did You So Great? And 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.040 I guess that same story about being a young lawyer 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.760 in Atlanta and a racially mixed neighborhood was also in 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.520 his book Just Mercy. You know you and I both 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:54.800 have a complete crush on Bryani really equal Equal Justice Initiative, 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.760 and my daughter's working for the Southern Poverty Law Center 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:02.640 exactly exactly we have to connect that. But anyway, I 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.480 mean that experience he described Brian real quickly. He was 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.280 coming home. He was listening to a radio show about 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.920 sliding the family stone. You could just put yourself. He 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.200 was staying in the cars sometimes you do when you're 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:18.160 you're mesmerized by something on the radio. And Atlanta police 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.720 officer came. Apparently someone had made a call. He was, 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.520 as I said, in a racially mixed neighborhood, basically almost 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:28.400 you know, killed him. And the fear that he had 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:31.720 as this Harvard educated lawyer coming back from his firm, 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.240 and I don't know that the scene, he said, was 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.400 so profoundly moving to me, and it really made you 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:42.640 realize in sharp relief what it was like. What about you, Eva, 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.120 Was there anything for you that made you think this 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:50.480 is completely screwed up? Many many little things throughout my 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.680 my growing up, but there was one in particular around 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:59.840 my father recently onto another realm recently departed, and he 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:03.280 was in his our house watering the lawn in the 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:08.880 backyard of his own home and police came through the 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:11.880 side gate and wrestled him to the ground in his 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.920 own backyard. We had to rush out of the house 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.120 UM with no warning, that didn't say anything, no guns 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.600 drawn on us. My mother and and it was me. 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:27.160 My sisters weren't there. I don't know, maybe maybe eleven 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:30.800 or twelve, something like bad to see my father such 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:35.480 a proud, elegant man on the ground, UM with police 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:39.000 on top of him, guns pointed at us, not knowing 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.360 who we were. And basically in the end they said 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.000 he matched the description of someone who was running through 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.640 the neighborhood. UM, despite the fact that he was saying, 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.720 this is my home. I'm the homeowner in his own backyard. 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.880 Not safe. So those kinds of like I said, excessive 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:57.640 police force and a disregard for the humanity of people, uh, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.040 something that I grew up with. It was just a 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.520 part of daily life. When you spoke very eloquently about 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.560 this in the Atlantic, you said you'd see a cop 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.640 growing up and you didn't think safety like your counterpart 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:09.880 who didn't grow up in Compton. You'd think, oh boy, 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.160 what are they coming for and who are they coming 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.600 for yeah, exactly. So it's be because of instances like that, 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.000 So you know, I find it, it makes its way 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.040 in my work, and at one point I would try 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.280 to push that away. And so I need to really 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.960 engage with Hollywood in the ways that our standard Hollywood. 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.199 But I've just tried to embrace the fact that these 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.360 are the things I'm interested in, and it's okay to 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.280 talk about those things, and whether it's a documentary or 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.920 whether it's like a series like Queen Sugar, you know, 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:38.720 to be able to find the spaces where I can 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:40.480 say the things I want to say about these issues 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.680 is okay to do. I read Eva, I learned something 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:45.920 new about you every day, and I read that you 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:49.280 actually helped cover the o J trial for ye did? 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.400 How did I not know that? And you became disillusioned 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:55.960 with journalism. Yeah, I really really wanted to do what 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.280 you do, Okay. I really wanted to be a broadcast journalist. 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.240 I don't know what that was in me for all 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.240 through high school and uh and going through college, that 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.680 was what I wanted to do. And so anyway, I 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:13.120 got this prestigious internship with the CBS Evening News. This 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:15.880 isn't the Dan and rather Connie chung Era the small 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:17.960 window when it was both of them right, almost as 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:23.360 prestigious as the later Katie Kurrik almost, but it was 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.040 a slim window when there was the two of them. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.079 And that landed at some point around the trial. Anyway, 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.200 the trial was just starting. I got to sign my 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.440 juror packet. I was assigned to one specific juror, and 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:35.720 I was like, this is it. It's a few short 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.640 months and I'll be on the air anchoring like this 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:43.920 is it's all happening for me? And um, And basically 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:45.319 I was kind of capped out in front of a 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:49.080 juror's house and um and you know, kind of invited 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.640 to kind of look through her I don't know, trash things, 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:54.839 mail get a sense of when she came home, who 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:56.760 was coming, And I just felt like that's not what 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:58.840 I went to. It was around the time O J. 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.880 Tim I think things the traditional news had to become 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:06.520 a tad more tabloid e to compete with the new world. 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.520 I think I felt that, and so things were changing 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.000 and I didn't I didn't take to it. Well, I 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:18.240 wasn't good at it, and I got no trash, no dirt, Noh, yeah, 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.840 Well that was a bad assignment and probably not a 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:24.000 fair representation of the kind of work might have been 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:25.960 able to do. I wouldn't stuck with it, you know. 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.800 I was just I couldn't see through when you idealize something, 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.400 you know. Even that that brings me back to though, 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:33.520 the o J trial, and I just want to kind 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.120 of take a left turn for a moment, because I 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.120 was in the hallway when that verdict was announced, and 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:43.520 I was actually standing near o J's kids. And I'm 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.520 not sure if either of you remember. Of course you 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.800 remember the external outside reaction, but the black and white 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.480 reaction was dramatically but I mean, I know you remember that. 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.760 But in that hallway was a microcosm of sorts of 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.120 this racial divide in this country. And I'm curious what 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:04.960 you thought about the reaction by the African American community, 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:09.560 because I have to say I was. I was stunned. Um. 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.040 You know, I knew Johnny Cochrane very well and the 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:16.360 whole defense team. I actually loved Johnny Cochrane, and and 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.600 yet it was pretty clear that o J had committed 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:24.080 this crime, and the jubilation when he was not convicted, 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.680 when he was acquitted, and the image of this very 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:32.560 different reaction from black and white America is still somewhat 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:35.200 hard for me, less hard for me to understand given 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.960 everything that I've explored and read and people I've talked to, 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.840 But help me understand it a little more. I mean, 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:44.880 I think it was and we've had, you know, both 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.120 documentary and narrative pieces that have since explored that whole case. 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.960 I mean, it was siminar case and American criminal justice, 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.960 but also speak so clearly to know the racial divide, 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.160 and I think, you know, just being around at that 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:00.600 time I was in college, the feeling was know so 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:05.160 often the criminal justice system is unjust towards the black man, right, 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:10.400 It's so skewed, it's so destructive. I mean, day in 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.440 and day out, years and years of never winning, of 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:17.040 never that the win on such a high in such 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.200 a high profile way, even though intellectually you know this 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.240 is not a good guy. But the optics and the 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.320 triumph of finally being on the on the winning side, 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.080 I think was such a powerful um It was such 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.640 a powerful feeling. Did you feel that way? I don't 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:36.720 remember how I felt at the time about it. I 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:38.080 don't know if it was following that close I was 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.920 in college and having a good time, but I do 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.040 remember a sense of kind of drama and excitement and 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.280 energy during the the high speed chase. I was in 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:49.520 l A. I saw it go by. I mean, at 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.280 some point it became um, you know when when I 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.120 was young and then watching it, it became it was 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.600 entertainment in a way, you know, and not regarding it 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.480 as you know, a life or death matter, and and 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:01.640 people who lost their lives over this, you know, it 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.000 became spectacle. It was a cultural spectacle. I think that's 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.000 how people, you know, you know African Americans. Uh, some 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.000 people were able to divorce themselves from the actual lives 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.760 lost and say, wow, we won when really it wasn't 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.040 quite the wind that that that it was embraced as 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.320 at the time. So rather than pursue journalism, you decided 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.399 to move toward the entertainment industry. So I just forget 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:26.199 that that you wanted to do. For all, they're not 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.719 going to be going through. But you chose a kind 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.040 of unconventional path for what you're doing now. You started 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:36.320 your own marketing and publicity agency, and you did that 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:39.640 for many years, even after you had started making films. 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:47.760 How did that training and background inform your filmmaking? I 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:51.000 loved films, so what that did is just allowed me 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.280 to immerse myself in film even more. Uh So, I 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:59.080 started out after the news stint um, working for studios 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.720 and publicity firms that specialized in films. How do you 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:04.359 as a film go or when you think about how 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.439 do you know that a film is coming out? You 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.560 know how whatever whether it's the commercial, it's the red carpet, 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:11.600 it's the entertainment to nice piece, it's the review in 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:14.080 the newspaper, all the ways that you know that a 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.480 film is coming out, that's what the public system the 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.639 marketers to do. So that's what I did, and I 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.359 loved it because it gave me close proximity to filmmakers 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.720 and I love sets and movies and so just working 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.480 for thirteen years and film that closely gave me a 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.560 set of tools that really made up for not going 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:31.960 to film school. Because I didn't go to film school, 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.040 but I was working as a publicist on film sets 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.439 and traveling with filmmakers, and so when I decided to 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.199 make my own films, I had some basse uh to 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.200 go from. Even though I hadn't gone to a traditional school, 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.600 and so all that marketing experience must have come in 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.919 incredibly handy because so much of filmmaking today obviously is 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:55.560 the artistry and what you're doing to to produce this 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:59.160 this piece of work, but also to make sure it's 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:03.239 seen and heard and that people are aware of it. 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.679 I mean, I'm sure that's been Have you continue to 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.240 get where your marketing has in some saying, it's really odd. 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.560 I don't think about marketing when I'm casting. I don't 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.639 think about it when I'm making the thing. Uh, And 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:19.960 I think, knowing so much about marketing publicity, I know 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.120 that you can market and publicize anything. So I just 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:25.760 let myself be free with what I'm doing when the 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:28.080 time comes to market and publicize. I can have different 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.480 kinds of conversations with studios and networks than a lot 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.800 of my filmmaking partners do our colleagues do, because I 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.240 know what they're talking about in a in a deep way. Um, 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:38.719 But I really don't think about I don't think when 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:40.480 i'm casting, oh this person will be good on a poster, 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.320 or oh this person. I know that I can publicize 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.080 this piece of paper sitting on the desk. I can 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:47.960 do that. I can make you want to read this 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.479 piece of paper on the very useful even after the 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.000 film is right right. So it allows me to be 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.600 free in the creative because I don't feel constrained by 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:58.880 having to do certain things in order to get publicity. 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.840 Didn't you weren't working in publicity and then you got 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.520 hired to Actually that's what what movie was? That was that? 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:13.080 So in earlier iteration you were actually I read did 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.199 his homework and he tells me, really, but basically you 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:20.000 startedst for someone. How crazy is that? Wait? How did 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.200 that happen? And then he became the director? I know 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:25.320 it was Lee Daniels was directing and I was not 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:27.600 directing yet. I was asked to come on and be 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.080 the publicist for it because they wanted to have conversations 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:31.879 with the King of State and they wanted someone to 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:34.720 be in the middle of that and so liaison between 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.439 the filmmaker and the family, and that's what I was 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:39.639 hired to do by path A, the French financers. I 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.480 still have the contract where I signed to be the publicist, 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.439 but the film never went forward, so that fell apart. 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:50.280 I did get paid though, and so years later, maybe 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:55.200 five years later. You know life, you know, life is mysterious. Crazy. 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:57.199 Daniels made The Butler, and he said that he had 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.920 sort of made his civil rights movie, so he didn't product. 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:02.480 So yeah, he left the project and David or Yellow, 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.120 wo had been cast by him and remained with the project. 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:07.440 David Yellow was the actor who played Dr. King. I 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:10.760 just happened to work with David Yellow on my little 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:13.240