WEBVTT - Talkspace CEO Says Text Therapy Is More Affordable

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and

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<v Speaker 1>Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. You're listening to Bloomberg Business

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<v Speaker 1>We really excited about this next hour because we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>be talking about some things that are really important amid

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<v Speaker 1>this pandemic. Carol and I know we've been looking forward

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<v Speaker 1>to this conversation with Orn Frankie's co founder and chief

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<v Speaker 1>executive officer of talk Space joining us on the phone

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<v Speaker 1>from New Jersey and Orange. First of all, I hope

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<v Speaker 1>you're well and uh, sort of coping as best you can,

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<v Speaker 1>as we all are amid all of this. Thanks Jason,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks for having me. So I was understand what talk

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<v Speaker 1>spaces and how you came to create it because you

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<v Speaker 1>had a long career or a very successful career in

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<v Speaker 1>the ad game, I believe, and you happened upon this

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<v Speaker 1>through some personal experience. Tell us the story. So, Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>that's true. I was in marketing and advertising for many

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<v Speaker 1>years and I'm now repenting and paying for my scenes,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess. And we started tough this because we just

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<v Speaker 1>thought that psychotherapy was such a wonderful professional had so

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<v Speaker 1>much edited value, and it was just a shame that

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<v Speaker 1>so few people actually have access to it. So our

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<v Speaker 1>mission from the day one world, can we actually open

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<v Speaker 1>up access for everyone who wants to at least try

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<v Speaker 1>talking to a therapist. It has helped both me and

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<v Speaker 1>my co founder is also my wife my partner, tremendously

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<v Speaker 1>in our lives and we thought, you know, the world

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<v Speaker 1>has to be a better place if we could open

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<v Speaker 1>this up for everyone. So that was a yeah. I

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<v Speaker 1>would see the initial at the beginning in around twenty twelve.

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<v Speaker 1>And what's interesting is when I think about it, how

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<v Speaker 1>great that you can open it up to maybe a

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<v Speaker 1>world of people who might not reach out to go

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<v Speaker 1>face to face with someone. But at the same time,

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes that face to face is really really important. What

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<v Speaker 1>how do you how do you kind of balance both

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<v Speaker 1>of that? So both are great. You know, I've been

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<v Speaker 1>to face to face therapy for many long years and

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<v Speaker 1>it's wonderful. The truth of the matter is, in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of just being practical, most people cannot afford all the

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<v Speaker 1>money or the time to go and see someone face

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<v Speaker 1>to face. The usage to face to face therapy in

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<v Speaker 1>the United States is, let's say in a good year

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<v Speaker 1>you have ten million people who actually go and do it,

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<v Speaker 1>and they do it for just a few several sessions,

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<v Speaker 1>not more than that. That means that there's a huge

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<v Speaker 1>and immense gap between the I would take the numbers,

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<v Speaker 1>the amount of people that actually could use help and

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<v Speaker 1>need help in a clinical way, and the ones that

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<v Speaker 1>are actually using that. So we're not trying to take

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<v Speaker 1>away business from face to face. It's a wonderful take.

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<v Speaker 1>But all those tens of millions that could use it

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<v Speaker 1>as well but cannot afford it in so many ways,

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<v Speaker 1>are welcome to try remote or virtual or online therapy,

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<v Speaker 1>which is what we do. And so tell us about

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<v Speaker 1>the technology, because you know, this is beyond what you

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<v Speaker 1>have created. It is beyond just a situation where people

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<v Speaker 1>can can do this remotely. There's some artificial intelligence built in,

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<v Speaker 1>I believe, help us understand how that works. So you know,

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<v Speaker 1>behavior health and psychotherapy and psychiatry are as I said before,

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<v Speaker 1>wonderful professions, the very rich in theories that are kind

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<v Speaker 1>of pouring data. Where you introduce an online, modern technology platform,

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<v Speaker 1>the thing that you begin to do is you begin

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<v Speaker 1>to aggregate and accumulate vast troves of data that can

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<v Speaker 1>be used to learn and see patterns and then effectively

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<v Speaker 1>and when someone uses our our technology or platform, they

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<v Speaker 1>can do video, they can do audio, they can write

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<v Speaker 1>to each other. It's their choice that we can analyze

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<v Speaker 1>this and actually learn how the best treatment courses look like,

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<v Speaker 1>what are the best lines of interventions that will apply

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<v Speaker 1>to some kinds of conditions or accurities. When you have

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<v Speaker 1>a large enough data set, you can do what's called

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<v Speaker 1>very large scale regressions and begin to get, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a faint idea of what works better than other approaches.

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<v Speaker 1>Because in all honestly, if you went to a therapist

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<v Speaker 1>in Manhattan, you don't know how good they are. You

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<v Speaker 1>don't know how many people they helped in the past,

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<v Speaker 1>and more than anything else, you don't know if they're

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<v Speaker 1>he or she is a good fit for you for

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<v Speaker 1>your particular needs. You know, therapy is a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>like dating. Well, and I want to talk more about

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<v Speaker 1>the use of machine learning and AI and all of

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<v Speaker 1>this in a moment, but I do wonder about the

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<v Speaker 1>therapist that you use. What's the screening involved? UM tell

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<v Speaker 1>us a little bit about that process. So we have

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<v Speaker 1>close to five thousand therapists on the network in all

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<v Speaker 1>fifty states, and because we have this this level of data,

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<v Speaker 1>we can actually know who is a good fit and

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<v Speaker 1>a great therapist that will deliver good clinical outcomes on

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<v Speaker 1>this platform. Um, So I and tell you one thing

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<v Speaker 1>that probably won't surprise you, but we found only two

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<v Speaker 1>strong correlations, one stronger than the other towards what makes

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<v Speaker 1>a really good therapist. So the first one, interestingly enough,

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<v Speaker 1>is having around seven or eight minimal years of experience

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<v Speaker 1>post supervision UM that's delivered significantly better clinical outcomes. So

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<v Speaker 1>if you look at our network, they all qualified to

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<v Speaker 1>this or every one average they have a tenure from

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<v Speaker 1>nine to ten years. And the second one, Carol, won't

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<v Speaker 1>surprise you at all, and it actually applies to most

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<v Speaker 1>of our life, is that women are better ms. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I have a segment later in the week about how

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<v Speaker 1>leaders you know during crisis better women. I'm the only

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<v Speaker 1>person who can see Carol during this show right now, Lauren,

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<v Speaker 1>and I can tell you that she is giving her

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<v Speaker 1>not surprised face uh, and her slightly UM. I want

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<v Speaker 1>to say smug. I don't want to say smug, but

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<v Speaker 1>certain face. Uh. You and I we should join their

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<v Speaker 1>forces to our next start up, which is handling over

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<v Speaker 1>handing over the world to women. So story in the

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<v Speaker 1>magazine this week in Bloomberg Business Week magazine by Cynthia Coon's,

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<v Speaker 1>our US healthcare reporter at Bloomberg News is about how,

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<v Speaker 1>in the midst of the pandemic, more people are turning

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<v Speaker 1>to online therapy to deal with anxiety, depression and relationship strife.

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<v Speaker 1>And that includes turning to talk Space, which is where

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<v Speaker 1>we get back to our guest or in Frank's co

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<v Speaker 1>founder and CEO talk Space, joining us on the phone

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<v Speaker 1>in New Jersey. First of all, I was curious orient,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, tell us or how much of your site

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<v Speaker 1>um has gone up your app in terms of uh

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<v Speaker 1>since we've been kind of since we've been in lockdown

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<v Speaker 1>for the last two months. So it's changing every day.

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<v Speaker 1>But we see at least a doubling of our traffic

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<v Speaker 1>of people that are coming in and are looking for help.

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<v Speaker 1>And we can see coming from two sources. One is,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, beyond the pandemic that we talked about all day,

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<v Speaker 1>there is a second I would say epidemic, which is

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<v Speaker 1>one of mental health, which is trigored by by COVID nineteen.

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<v Speaker 1>So you see people that are the amounts of pain

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<v Speaker 1>and suffering and and and really sad and heartbreaking stories

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<v Speaker 1>that are out there has grown dramatically. And on top

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<v Speaker 1>of that, you see I would say a second source

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<v Speaker 1>of people that it's used to go to face to

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<v Speaker 1>face therapy, but it's unfortunately not available right now, so

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<v Speaker 1>they're looking for help elsewhere. But overall, we see more

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<v Speaker 1>than a double lot of the people that are the

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<v Speaker 1>people help with us? Or do you feel like this

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<v Speaker 1>notion of going to therapy or or talking to someone

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<v Speaker 1>is becoming more widely accepted and acceptable. Are we getting

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<v Speaker 1>more comfortable talking about mental health? It's a great question, Jason,

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<v Speaker 1>and and I don't want to be you know, give

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<v Speaker 1>you a wishful thinking answer. I think I think stigma

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<v Speaker 1>is improving, but it's not equally distributed. I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>when we have a conversation with people that live in Manhattan,

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<v Speaker 1>it's part of their early lives. It's not anything that's threatening.

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<v Speaker 1>I think one of the interesting things that we learned

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<v Speaker 1>over the last eight years is that actually remote care

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes helps to alleviate stigma, because part of stigma is

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<v Speaker 1>that very awkward I would say feeling or experience once

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<v Speaker 1>you meet the therapist face to face for the first

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<v Speaker 1>time at that point that in time here or share

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<v Speaker 1>a complete stranger and sometimes it's very painful for you

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about, well, whatever is troubling you. So there's

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<v Speaker 1>a sense of awkwardness of being judged. That is part

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<v Speaker 1>of steem myself. So some of the younger people, the

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<v Speaker 1>millenniums a k a. Millenniums still much safer in writing

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<v Speaker 1>the healths from Afar and we we see an interesting

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<v Speaker 1>phenomena in which people begin to write to the therapy

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<v Speaker 1>not a couple of months. They will once they trust

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<v Speaker 1>him or her, they will do a live video session

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<v Speaker 1>because now they're willing to expose themselves. Wow, that's real.

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<v Speaker 1>That's really interesting sort of mixing, the mixing the media.

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<v Speaker 1>In some ways, what I find fascinating for such a

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<v Speaker 1>developed society, smart society, developed country, is that we don't

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<v Speaker 1>really respect health, whether it's physical health or mental health.

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<v Speaker 1>It's really kind of mind boggling for the amount of

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<v Speaker 1>money that we spend out a lot of stuff. And

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<v Speaker 1>I mean we might individually, but I think even the

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<v Speaker 1>medical world doesn't necessarily appreciate or certain aspects of it

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<v Speaker 1>um or in the importance of mental health, Like why

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<v Speaker 1>isn't it why isn't it that we all go in

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<v Speaker 1>every year for kind of a I don't know, you

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<v Speaker 1>know that that's got to be part of our mental

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<v Speaker 1>health checkout. Yeah, of course he was so right. And

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<v Speaker 1>I've made to say, you know, argument to accomplish people

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<v Speaker 1>in my past. But I really think that in here

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<v Speaker 1>we have some hope and some positive change. I think,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, much of healthcare is delivered by large employers

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<v Speaker 1>in the United States, and I think it's a certain

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<v Speaker 1>section of them really understand that and will prioritize mental health, animals, wellness, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>just as much as they do any other form of healthcare.

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<v Speaker 1>I think systematically, you know, the healthcare system or someone

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<v Speaker 1>very wise once told me that the United States have

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<v Speaker 1>the best medicine in the world and probably the world's

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<v Speaker 1>healthcare system. I think the healthcare system is catching up

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<v Speaker 1>to death as well. And I can tell you that

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<v Speaker 1>we also operate enterprise, so business to business, and we

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<v Speaker 1>have a We've had a huge growth of large payers

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<v Speaker 1>that understands that they need to provide these kind of

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<v Speaker 1>access and then started working with us in the last

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<v Speaker 1>couple of months or as of a COVID nineteens. So

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<v Speaker 1>I think we're actually making progress there and I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know how long it will take, but I'm with that.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty confident that that it will be provided to Americans.

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<v Speaker 1>We just have to do it. It just makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>You shared starts with us, and I just want to

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<v Speaker 1>throw it out to our people that among the increase

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<v Speaker 1>since everybody's been locked down, increasing clients with the chief

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<v Speaker 1>complain of anxiety because of stress, because of an increasing depression,

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<v Speaker 1>of increasing difficulties sleeping, and then a lot of them

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<v Speaker 1>for couples therapy or just people coming almost coming because

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<v Speaker 1>of relationship problems. Um So, it's been a variety of

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<v Speaker 1>things that really have um created some troubles for people.

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<v Speaker 1>What does it cost? I think that we are, as

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<v Speaker 1>I mentioned before, we are facing a huge crisis that's

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<v Speaker 1>going to hit us. You know, million people lost their jobs,

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<v Speaker 1>are unemployed now, people are locked at home, sometimes a

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<v Speaker 1>very small apartments with family members some times, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry to tell you, with abusive family members. The

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<v Speaker 1>amount of pain that is generated by that is something

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<v Speaker 1>that's going to hit us very hard pretty soon. I think, unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to see a lot of that. We're going

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<v Speaker 1>to see more depths of despair also known as suicide

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<v Speaker 1>um with the level not just the number of people

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<v Speaker 1>that are approaching and not seeking out, also their acuity.

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<v Speaker 1>So how hard it really hit them is mind boggling.

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<v Speaker 1>That very is that picture out there, and I don't

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<v Speaker 1>see that getting any better anytime soon without the economy

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<v Speaker 1>is doing and how the general movie is doing. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>I wish we had more time because there's I have

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<v Speaker 1>like a million more questions. You'll have to come back

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<v Speaker 1>and spend some time with this. Or In Frank, we

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<v Speaker 1>really appreciate. Co founder CEO of Talk Space, joins on

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<v Speaker 1>the phone from New Jersey. Check out the story by

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<v Speaker 1>Cynthia Coon's in the latest edition of Business Week. It's

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<v Speaker 1>excellent and gives you a sense of the scope of

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<v Speaker 1>the problem out there that Orrine Frank is trying to

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<v Speaker 1>tackle